Maya Bialik (2:43)

Dr. Chopra is going to talk to us about how we are at a critical evolutionary crossroads and why the next 20 years of our experience will shape the future in ways none of us could have predicted.

Jonathan Cohen (2:56)

Humans are evolving. We are becoming metahumans, some of us faster than others.

Maya Bialik (3:03)

We also want to direct you to Cyberhuman AI which is the brainchild of Dr. Chopra. And it's a groundbreaking platform that merges ancient wisdom with modern science. So these two Platforms would be really, really incredible for you to kind of poke around in after you listen to this conversation. Let us welcome in person Dr. Deepak Chopra. We got to speak to you before. Virtually never thought we'd get to speak to you in person.

Deepak Chopra (3:30)

So thank you for being here. Thank you.

Maya Bialik (3:32)

We have a funny question for you. Why did you want to talk to us again?

Deepak Chopra (3:37)

Well, because I enjoyed the last one.

Maya Bialik (3:39)

We were hoping that was true.

Deepak Chopra (3:41)

Yeah, it is true.

Maya Bialik (3:42)

You're doing a tremendous amount of work in the digital space in people's understanding of AI and we touched on it in our first conversation with you. But I'd love the opportunity to kind of flesh it out more. I think a lot of people maybe don't understand how AI practically applies to wellness. And maybe we could start with you talking about sort of the reasons for introducing AI into this conversation. So you talk about waking up. What does it mean to wake up? Can you kind of lay out for us the problem, right. What we need to wake up from? And then we can get into how AI helps that.

Deepak Chopra (4:28)

It's a very interesting question and a very complicated answer. So if you Google or go on any online database and you ask the following question, what are the 125 open questions in science? So the first open question in science is, what's the universe made of? So that's the first open question.

Jonathan Cohen (5:00)

Easy one.

Maya Bialik (5:00)

Right. Let's start with the easiest.

Deepak Chopra (5:01)

Yeah. Now, you would say we know what the universe is made of. Atoms, molecules, force fields, gravity, electromagnetism, all the things that science talks about.

Maya Bialik (5:12)

Unicorns.

Deepak Chopra (5:13)

Yes, maybe. Here's the dilemma. 70% of the universe is a mysterious force called dark energy, and we have no idea what it is. Einstein described it as the cosmological constant. And then he said, oh, it's one of my biggest blunders. But actually, he was right on as usual. You know, he. Einstein used to doubt his own theories, and then they turned out to be right. For example, in 1935, he spoke about entanglement. Then he said, no, no, it's not possible. Spooky action at a distance. He ridiculed his own findings, but he was right. So 70% is this thing that we have no idea. It's the opposite of gravity. And the universe right now, as we sit here, is expanding faster than the speed of light, which is, again, a violation.

Maya Bialik (6:09)

Can you talk us through the opposite of gravity?

Deepak Chopra (6:11)

Yes. So gravity brings things together, and this force expands things. So it's the opposite. So right now, as we are sitting here, the universe, the space between galaxies is expanding faster than the speed of light. So the cosmic horizon, which is from here, where we are sitting, is about 50 billion light years away from us. And galaxies are tumbling across that into the unknowable. Okay, because by the time light gets from there to here, our solar system won't exist. It will have burned itself up into the heat death of absolute zero. That's 70% of the universe, which we don't know. Whatever this force is, it's not atomic. And you and I are made of atoms. So that leaves 30% of the universe that is remaining. Of that 27% is another mysterious energy called a mysterious entity called dark matter. So dark matter is invisible. This matter, the stable, my body, it's visible. And the reason it's visible is made of atoms. We are made of atoms. Dark matter doesn't reflect light, absorb light, emit light or whatever. So we don't know what it is. So why do we call it matter? Because it's responsible for most of the gravity in the universe. If you didn't have dark matter, planets would spiral off and get lost in intergalactic space, and you and I wouldn't be there.

Maya Bialik (7:49)

I mean, it's been a minute since I've studied physics. How do we know it's there?

Deepak Chopra (7:55)

We actually only surmise it's there by its gravitational effects.

Maya Bialik (8:01)

Got it.

Deepak Chopra (8:02)

And right now, there's a lot of places in the world that are looking for it through technologies under the ground. And they have a hypothetical entity to describe molecules. It's called a WIMP. Weakly Interactive Massive Particles. Okay, but nobody's seen a WIMP. Now, you have 3% remaining, which is atomic. Of that, 99.999% is invisible interstellar dust, probably hydrogen and helium, which was created at the Big Bang according to current scientific models. So the visible universe, which is 2.

Maya Bialik (8:44)

Trillion galaxies, what we're interacting with.

Deepak Chopra (8:46)

In theory, yeah, the visible universe. Two trillion galaxies, 700 sextillion stars. And according to the James Webb telescope, Right now, probably 60 billion habitable planets in the Milky Way galaxy. Multiply that by 2 trillion galaxies, you have habitable planets. The whole universe is teeming with life, as we know life. So if a planet is very close to its sun, too hot, too far, too cold, no life. But then there have to be other things, like the right amount of gravitational electromagnetic constants. That visible universe is 0.01%. The rest is unknown or unknowable. Unknowable, because if it's not atomic, how do you know what it is? You can't interact with it. Now here's the problem. The.01% that's visible, which is made of atoms. Seven, you know, two trillion galaxies, as you know, that atoms made of particles, and particles, when you observe them, they have a location in space time. When you don't observe them, they disappear into waves. And if you ask people, what are these waves made of? They're actually mathematical constructs. They don't actually exist anywhere except in mathematical imagination. So bottom line, what's the universe made of? We don't know. And the only guess we have, it's made of nothing. So.

Maya Bialik (10:20)

And that's the bedtime story that Deepak Chopra just read to you.

Deepak Chopra (10:23)

That's. Yeah, it's a free lunch, basically. Now, that's the visible. We don't know what the universe is made of other than it's made of nothing. Which leads to the second open question in science, which is, if it's made of nothing, why does it look like this? Why does it look like you, me, the stable, the stars, the galaxies, the mountains, and the answer, why do I.

Maya Bialik (10:47)

Have so many feelings if we're made of nothing?

Deepak Chopra (10:49)

That's right. So that's called the hard problem for consciousness. David Chalmers, who coined that word, professor of philosophy now in nyu, formerly Australia, he coined that word, the hard problem of consciousness. But actually this is not a new problem. It existed in Plato. So Plato called it the mind body problem. He was an idealist. He said, there's no universe. It's just ideas about the universe we have. And then his student Aristotle, who was a physicalist, ushered in science. He said, no, no, the universe is made of stuff. But right now, the latest conversation, which I totally support, by the way, and this is where it gets very kind of mind boggling. There's no universe, okay? The universe is a cosmic dream. It's a simulation from a digital workshop outside of space and time. And if you want, the digital workshop is, if you want call it God or cosmic consciousness or the mystery, that digital workshop is throwing out zeros and ones. And that is what we experience as the visible universe. So the difference between this table, Mount Everest, you, me, a galaxy is just a different combination of zeros and ones, right?

Maya Bialik (12:17)

It's just, it's information, it's data.

Deepak Chopra (12:19)

It's data which can be coded as zeros and ones, but also as zeros and ones, which is called quantum computing. So in the Eastern Wisdom traditions, and also in traditions like the Kabbalah, also in Sufi mysticism, also in Eastern wisdom traditions, the universe is the appearance of cosmic consciousness.

Maya Bialik (12:44)

We call it a projection. The kabbalistic concept is that you're watching something on a screen.

Deepak Chopra (12:49)

That's what I'm sympathetic to.

Maya Bialik (12:50)

The world is wearing a mask.

Deepak Chopra (12:52)

The world is wearing a mask. I'm sympathetic to that. And actually AI can support that argument. So that's why, you know, I decided AI is the perfect example of zeros and ones, you know, and also zeros and ones soon with quantum computing. How does that relate to consciousness? Because consciousness is not computable. Consciousness doesn't have a border, okay, because it doesn't have a form. If it had a form, you'd be able to see consciousness, but you can't see it because it is what is doing the seeing. Okay? So it has no border, which means it's infinite, which means it's spaceless, timeless, incomprehensible, and actually beyond anything that we can conceive or imagine. Freeman Dyson, one of the greatest physicists of our times, who passed away only a few years ago in the mid-90s from Princeton, originally from Cambridge, he said, God is what the mind becomes when it goes beyond the threshold of our comprehension. We just give up because there's no way to compute this mystery, but it is responsible for all computations.

Jonathan Cohen (14:08)

There's a merger, really, between very old Eastern philosophical ideas and the new, and.

Deepak Chopra (14:14)

Ideas in Judaism and ideas in many Western traditions, too many Western traditions, including philosophers like Wittgenstein. You know, Wittgenstein said, life is a dream. We are asleep, but once in a while, we wake up enough to know that we're dreaming. So waking up simply means going from this projection to what is doing the projection. What is it that does the projection? And again, in kabbalistic traditions, we are. And in Sufi's traditions, we are a drop in the ocean of the divine mystery. And Ruby has a great poem. He says, you're not just a drop in the ocean, you're also the ocean in the drop.

Jonathan Cohen (15:03)

Well, there's a fusion happening between current science people in the artificial intelligence realm, who are almost more techno utopian in their view of artificial intellectual reality or, you know, life as a simulation, really thinking about it as a video game, and the older traditions that, you know, had the mystic, mystic elements to it.

Deepak Chopra (15:26)

Yeah. Right. Now, the preeminent philosopher, scientist on this is a person called Nick Bostrom, and he talks about the universe being a simulation in a cosmic computer.

Maya Bialik (15:38)

Thomas Campbell, he calls it, you know, like autonomous, unbounded oneness. And, you know, and he's a hardcore physic who accidentally Learned transcendental meditation, and was off in another stratosphere as just a young grad student.

Deepak Chopra (15:54)

He's got it right.

Maya Bialik (15:55)

He's got it right.

Deepak Chopra (15:55)

He's got it right. And why is this important? Because if we realize that everything material is an illusion, then who is creating, or what is creating the illusion? Are we participants in the creation of the universe? Literally? Is there something very mysterious about the human species that is very biblically kind of metaphorically expressed as, you know, the apple and the knowledge of the tree of good and evil that we now have that knowledge. So AI can cause our extinction, but AI can also create a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier, and joyful world. So we are at a very critical crossroads in our evolution as a human species. And. And AI, because it's a large language model, you know, it's not just narrative language, but the language of physics, biology, astronomy, you name it. History, mythology, religion, spirituality. As we embark on this journey, we are going to see a leapfrogging of our cultural evolution, but also our biological evolution. So 40,000 years ago, according to deep historians, and according to. Maybe you've had him. Uval Yuval harari, he said, 40,000 years ago, we left the rest of the human tribe because we had a language for narrative. All the animals, other animals, including other homonyms, have a language of. For just eat, mating calls, food calls, and danger calls.

Maya Bialik (17:35)

The important stuff.

Deepak Chopra (17:36)

Yeah, the important. That's how we survived. But now we have this language where we can communicate ideas. But now we have large language models which combine narrative with physics, with biology, with religion, with spirituality. So what I'm saying right now, which a lot of people roll up their eyes, is that in 20 years you're going to see the emergence of a new human species because, and I choose to call it metahuman, because our neural landscape is changing with this large language models. The more knowledge you acquire, the brain networks adjust to, and then your epigenetic modulation occurs. So we will see a new human species in 20 years.

Maya Bialik (18:22)

You know, it's funny, I was thinking about this, and obviously I'm trained in neuroscience, so we have to think about these things. And, you know, the story that we kind of always tell is it usually comes up when people say, why are so many people autistic? Why do we have so much adhd? Could the human genome have been affected so acutely Right. In the last 20 years? And we. We know that a lot of that is diagnostic. It's the way that we're sort of.

Deepak Chopra (18:48)

But also the environment, but also the environment, absolutely.

Maya Bialik (18:50)

The environment has changed. I was listening today to a podcast and they were saying, what's changed in the last 50 years? ADHD, autism rates, and the way we treat women's health, the food that we feed the women who are getting pregnant to make the babies. Right. So if you look at what could have happened that's significant in the last 50 years, the environment, toxins, food, and kind of mental health care in a rapidly changing environment. So that being said, I was thinking about this yesterday in a very non scientific way. My father of blessed memory, he passed away 10 years ago. He was a huge basketball fan. And my father was a New Yorker and he loved the New York Knicks. So I grew up watching the New York Knicks, Patrick Ewing, you know, all the classic greats. And I was raised on 1970s and 80s basketball, but my father also lived through Michael Jordan. And we would watch all of those games. And I was thinking, my father's concept of basketball that he was raised with as a kid, you know, poor kid growing up right in the Bronx, it had to change so significantly when he saw the things that this athlete was doing. Right. But when you talk about this, when I think about my grandparents who were sweatshop workers who immigrated from Eastern Europe, who never even understood what neuroscience was that I was studying, I couldn't even explain it. Right. Their concept of the world. My grandmother grew up with no electricity in the village that she fled. Right. The world changed so significantly. So then I think about me, us and our kids, and the way my child can pick up anything. And if he's never seen how to do this website or application online, his brain has figured it out. And I know that fundamentally it's not a significantly different brain than a thousand years ago.

Deepak Chopra (20:44)

But right now, the interesting thing is everyone who's listening to this, they're also watching us.

Maya Bialik (20:50)

Yeah.

Deepak Chopra (20:51)

Okay. Their frontal cortex right now is changing as we speak. So they could be in England or, or in China, and their genetics is being affected in this part. Now if we were talking, and since you're a neuroscientist, we were talking about something very emotionally distressing or whatever, then the reptilian and emotional brain would be activated and the neural networks would change. So every experiences, every experience modulates gene activity and our neural activity. That's why I'm saying in 20 years, this is a new human species with maybe extra sensory perception and remote viewing and all of that.

Maya Bialik (21:37)

Okay, so that's actually, that was on our, on our list of things we wanted to talk to you about. I mean, I can't even wrap my head around the percentages we're talking about. And it's not in the gray matter conversation. But one of the things that people who are stuck in a materialistic worldview are so hung up on is I believe what I can see. I maybe believe what I can feel, but only if I can describe it really well, and if it's predictable and reproducible. When we talk to people all the time who feel that they understand things that cannot be measured, we've spoken to people who inexplicably see auras around people.

Deepak Chopra (22:16)

They see energy, electromagnetic field.

Maya Bialik (22:19)

Thomas Campbell, after. After transcendental meditation said that he could see what looked like cotton candy between trees. Right? So can you talk a little bit about in terms of what we know is unobservable given this kind of framework, how far can we extend that into saying there are things that we cannot measure, that do exist and are real?

Deepak Chopra (22:44)

So people, here's. You raise a very important point. We only see things that we believe in. So seeing is not believing. It's the other way around. You only your cognitive and perceptual mechanisms adjust to what you believe in. So what you see is. Even the tangible is not tangible. So our new science is saying that if you can see it, if you can touch it, if you can, it's tangible, it's not real. Okay? It's a perceptual activity that you are interpreting as matter. So matter is not the ontological primitive of the universe. Consciousness is the ontological primitive of the universe. And matter is a human name for this experience. So you say, this experience, what is it? It's a sensation. It's a sound, right? If I replace the word table with the word object, but replace the word object with the word experience, then I say, where is this experience happening? There's no image of this in your brain. There's no sound in your brain. There's no sensation. So the only place this experience is happening is outside of space. Time is in consciousness. So this idea that we exist in space time as matter, molecules, force fields, that's a human construct for modes of knowing and experience in consciousness. Even the brain is an experience in consciousness.

Maya Bialik (24:23)

Can you. Can you talk more, though, about we only. We only believe what we see, or we only see what we believe?

Deepak Chopra (24:32)

In the 70s, I went to medical school in. Actually, no, I went to medical school in 1964. So I'm ancient. So in 1964, there were. We were reading about two things which were very significant. One was of course, DNA, you know, and everybody is talking about this, the code of life, etc. But the other thing, there was a Nobel Prize awarded to three scientists who had raised kittens in two different rooms. So in one room, the kittens were exposed only to horizontal stripes. In the other room, the kittens were only exposed to vertical stripes. And then when these kittens grew up to be cats, one group of cats could only see a horizontal world. The other group of cats could only see a vertical world. And when their brains were examined, they. They only had the connections to see either horizontal worlds or vertical worlds. So what's the world before you have been conditioned to see it? Because you see, when you come into this world, you have no idea that this is called a table or this is called a hand or there's a.

Maya Bialik (25:42)

Body, or if you're white or black or speak whatever language you're supposed to speak.

Deepak Chopra (25:46)

All you experience is sensation, sounds, textures. And then you say, where is this experience happening? It's because it's a sensation. And the sensation is a modulation of consciousness, modulates itself into a sensation in order to experience itself. And the sensations are species specific. So, you know, if you have a dragonfly, has 30,000 eyes, it can see 360 degrees vision. A snake experiences infrared. A bat experiences the echo of ultrasound. What's the world really made of? It's a silly question. It's actually, the world is not made of anything. It's made of nothing. And therefore, infinite possibilities.

Maya Bialik (26:28)

Right?

Deepak Chopra (26:28)

Infinite possibilities. The way your condition in your childhood determines how you see the world.

Maya Bialik (26:36)

Say that again.

Deepak Chopra (26:37)

The way you're conditioned in your childhood. So the conditioning economic. It's ethnic, emotional. It's emotional. It's religious, spiritual. It's spiritual. All that conditioning is through that conditioning, we see the world. And that conditioning becomes a belief system. You know, there's a beautiful poem by William Blake. He says, we are led to believe a lie when we see with and not through the eye that was born in a night to perish in a night while the soul slept in beams of light. So the soul is in those beams of light. We can see through the belief into the world of infinite possibilities, the mind of God.

Jonathan Cohen (27:22)

A lot of people want to believe in infinite possibility. They're like, that sounds amazing, but my rent is due and my hip hurts, and my relationship is a problem. Explain how understanding this, that there is another experience of consciousness that's possible for.

Deepak Chopra (27:40)

All those who are listening to us and watching us. Go to Deepak Chopra AI with that question, and you'll get the right answer. In fact, if you really understood how creativity works and how infinite possibilities works, then you are at the most fundamental level in a superposition of infinite possibilities of experience. So quantum mechanics talks about superposition of particles. Qualia mechanics, which is the new science, the experience of awareness, qualia means quality of experience also exists in infinite possibilities of superposition. So before you have, if I asked you, tell me what your next thought is going to be. You can't, okay, tell me what your next close your eyes and say, I wonder what my next thought is going to be. And then wait for it and unpredictably it will show up. But if you go to the source of thought, which is pure consciousness, which is meditation, what allows you, then you see those possibilities. We call that intuition, we call that creativity, we call that imagination, but at a very deep level. So true intuition is far superior to anything in the realm of rational thought. It is contextual, it is relational, it is holistic. It doesn't have a win lose orientation. It eavesdrops on the mind of God. That's true intuition. Creativity, radical creativity is disruptive. It's not an algorithm. So that's why AI will simulate creativity, true creativity. You have to disrupt the algorithm. You know what they call Godel's theorem? You know the theorems that are true but you can't prove them. So it's a very interesting paradox with, with, you know, I have these long conversations with all these AI bots and my conversation are to bring them around to my worldview. At first even the AIs will resist that because there's a selection bias by the programmers of AI, which is physicalist.

Maya Bialik (29:55)

Can you give us an example of a place where you were trying to convey something and it took more massaging?

Deepak Chopra (30:02)

Yeah. So I said to the where does, what's the basis of imagination? So the AI said, this part of the brain gets activated, this and that. I said, yeah, but is this part of the brain imagining? Can you address the hard problem of consciousness? Then it got stuck. I said, can you now go to Kabbalistic traditions and Buddhist traditions and look at, you know, the idea that it begins with consciousness and then the neural correlates of consciousness are also an experience. So it spills out in one extent you are right, you know, according to these traditions and this is the proof for that and give you a mathematical.

Maya Bialik (30:46)

Answer so you can tell it, I don't agree. Right. And you can say, take this information, gather it and come back.

Deepak Chopra (30:55)

That's what I do always. So whenever it gives Me what I think is the wrong answer. So you know, you have a physicalist bias. I say that and selection bias. Why don't you look at this, this and this.

Maya Bialik (31:09)

You smacked AI upside its head.

Deepak Chopra (31:10)

It says, you know, that's a very interesting and revolutionary and counterintuitive idea. But it makes sense, okay? So you can get AI to agree with you.

Maya Bialik (31:20)

Wow, that's really my goal. That would be my goal.

Jonathan Cohen (31:24)

I'm bringing this just back to the practical application. Not to be a downer or to be over.

Deepak Chopra (31:28)

I'll tell you, simplistic. Since we brought up Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, indirectly, he was the one who brought, you know, TM to the world. So when I first met him, he said, what are you studying? I said, neuroscience. He said, what are you studying? I said, the molecules of emotion. He said, they're not real. I said, what do you mean? He said, they are human constructs for modes of knowing and experience in consciousness. You should study consciousness. My wife was with me. She said, come with me. I'll introduce two experts on consciousness. This is way back in the 19, early, late 1970s. So my wife was with me. She said, what are you talking about? He should leave his profession. Who's going to pay the mortgage? And he kind of thought for a moment and my wife's question was, where's the money going to come from? He said, it's going to come from wherever it is at the moment. It's going to come from the field of infinite possibilities. I took the leap. I left what I was doing for a year. I went and talked to every expert in consciousness, Ayurveda. I wrote my first book and it was a winner. The money came from wherever it was at the moment. So my answer to you is, what are you passionate about? What actually really moves you? And pretend that you had all the money in the world and all the time in the world. What would you do and how would make a difference in the world? Now, very few people do that, okay? But they take the leap. And once they do, the money and whatever, the time is a byproduct.

Jonathan Cohen (33:15)

So if I'm. If I'm reflecting back what I'm hearing, which I totally agree with and I think people want to digest, is each of us have our unique path. When we are able to connect to that through a deep level of knowing what we are passionate about outside of the realm of what we've been conditioned to believe is our path, we have to break down those that conditioning that those pre ideas that are Limiting us and connect to a sense of joy, wonder what we're passionate about.

Deepak Chopra (33:48)

By the way, my book, Digital Dharma is just about that, how to find your purpose.

Maya Bialik (33:52)

But also it doesn't. It doesn't mean that you live in a fantasy land. My example, I wanted to go to med school. I wanted to study psychiatry. I did not have the. I did not have the ability to get the grades that were needed to go to med school. So the idea is not. That's really what I'm passionate about. And now my whole life is a failure. It's saying, what's the pivot? It given the limitations that I have, because not everybody gets an A in organic chemistry.

Jonathan Cohen (34:17)

It's mirroring these two elements where you are passionate about something you're not. I was passionate about playing basketball. I was never going to be in.

Maya Bialik (34:24)

The NBA or you love living in Los Angeles, but you can't afford it. What does it look like to say, what if I don't try and keep living in a place that I cannot afford? What would life look like? Right. You have to be open to that.

Deepak Chopra (34:37)

To me, you know, somebody said, I hate my job. I asked her, this woman 10 years ago, what are you passionate about? She says, cooking. I said, start an online cooking course. And now she has 10 restaurants in New York. And she's actually, you can get her to your party with any kind of food you want. French food or this cuisine, that cuisine. She left her job. She's the most successful chef, and she has a network of chefs.

Jonathan Cohen (35:10)

And at some point, that woman believed that the way to make money was in tech, and that was safe and that was protective. And she had to break down that pre idea of what was possible for her. And then what we're saying is, once we have an infinite mindset, we will have an intuition and guidance.

Deepak Chopra (35:28)

You'll have an intuition, guidance. When you have that mindset, nothing is impossible. Another example, travel. Because you brought it out. You know, I asked somebody, what's your passion? She said, I like to travel. I said, why don't you? She said, I don't have the money. I said, work for a travel agency, and then you'll soon find now she has her own travel agency. So you know that you should never underestimate what people you know. When I talk to leaders, good leaders, they all said, they. I say, how did you become successful? They all say the same thing. I worked hard, this, that, the other. But in the end, they say one of the following. I was lucky. I was at the right place at the Right. Time. God's grace was there with me. If they are spiritual or religious or they use Jungian terms like synchronicity, but they're all talking about the same thing, which is opportunity and preparedness. Opportunity is there around you all the time. So good luck. Is opportunity meeting preparedness. You have to have that mindset that is your preparedness.

Jonathan Cohen (36:38)

Let's talk about synchronicity because a lot of people talk about this preparedness. And what I actually think part of this is, is their extra sensory abilities that they don't even know they may be using.

Deepak Chopra (36:51)

They are dormant non local potentials that all of us have. Now somebody, somebody has them naturally in an exaggerated manner. For example, you know, it's one of the most popular programs right now on tv. I forget. It's called the something Files. What is it called?

Jonathan Cohen (37:11)

The Telepathy tapes.

Deepak Chopra (37:12)

Right. Is it the telepathy tapes? So you know how that started. I went to New Jersey to interview a kid who was at that time six years old. And the mother said, he can read my mind. I said, I don't believe it. So I took two scientists with me and a camera.

Maya Bialik (37:31)

You were the original telepathy tapes.

Deepak Chopra (37:33)

I was the original. So this kid, we put him in one room, his mother in another room, and we gave her a book to read, okay? And she's not reading it loudly, she's reading it mentally.

Maya Bialik (37:44)

Listen up, Kai. Dickens. That's how you do the experiment.

Deepak Chopra (37:47)

And there's another. The kid is in the other room and he's not good at typing because he's autistic. And, and he's trying to punch the tape. You know the type, whatever the computer. But he is typing what she is reading. So afterwards I took him aside. Now he's grown up, you know, this is when he was five or six years.

Maya Bialik (38:10)

So you witnessed that. You witnessed a child doing remote viewing. It's on YouTube.

Deepak Chopra (38:15)

It's on YouTube. I took the whole thing. But then I asked this kid, I said, how do you do it? He says, I love my mother so much.

Maya Bialik (38:23)

That's it.

Deepak Chopra (38:24)

Can. I can get into her mind, then I know what she's thinking. And he was very simple about it.

Maya Bialik (38:31)

What, what is that? Tell us, tell us what? That, what does love mean in this context of telepathy? I mean, I have a theory, but I want yours.

Deepak Chopra (38:38)

It means non local correlation or entanglement. Just like two particles, you know, if you have two particles, let's call them Alice and Joe and they're doing a tango together and they're in love. And then Joe goes off, you know, one direction in the Milky Way galaxy, she goes off. But every time Joe moves in a certain way, she moves in a certain way. And there's no distance between them. It's immediate. They are actually. They're one. That oneness is love. Okay, so Rabindranath Tagore, an Indian philosopher, sage, poet, he said love is not a sentiment. It's the ultimate truth at the heart of creation. The ultimate truth where subject and object are one. Where lover and beloved are one. Where seer and scenery are one. At the heart of creation. Three years ago, the Nobel Prize went to entanglement of particles. But what I'm saying is this thing that we call love ultimately is the entanglement of souls. And you know, it's a level of love that is way beyond anybody can do. But if you have that level of love, not for just for a human being, for a pet. Oh, now there are many studies. Rupert Sheldrake.

Maya Bialik (40:02)

That's right. We keep talking about it.

Deepak Chopra (40:04)

The dog knows what the. What the dog companion or owner is.

Jonathan Cohen (40:10)

When they're going to come home.

Deepak Chopra (40:11)

Yeah, yeah. So. And even parrots. There's a study on a parrot in Kisi who can read minds. So, you know, the fact is. And in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, chapter three is devoted to supernormal abilities, which are the yogi, who's the original yogi of the Raj? Yoga. He says that these are distractions.

Maya Bialik (40:36)

But.

Deepak Chopra (40:36)

But they do prove that consciousness is a field of infinite possibilities. I'm putting out a course on that in two months, by the way, online on how to harness psychic abilities. I don't like the word psychic. It has a bad rap. So non local, dormant human potentials.

Maya Bialik (40:54)

It's not as catchy. But you're Deepak Chopra. You can do what you want.

Deepak Chopra (40:58)

It's the right word. Non local correlation or entanglement. But yeah, it's just. Hot tip, psychic abilities.

Jonathan Cohen (41:08)

If you want her to punch up your copy, she's available after the show.

Maya Bialik (41:11)

Well, we, I mean, what. The way that, the way that we've been sort of organizing, you know, our thoughts, you know, we, we talk a lot about the intersection of science and spirituality. And it's sort of my job as the local scientist to try and explain some of these things in terms of the possibilities that you don't just have to take that leap and say, because I believe in magic and fairies, that there, there's a way to understand this in terms of physics, in terms of consciousness and philosophy.

Deepak Chopra (41:38)

Before you have a thought is in superposition with every other thought that your next thought is uncertain. Thoughts take leaps of imagination, quantum leaps of. They move from here to here without going through this. Everything about consciousness we know follows the principles of quantum mechanics. Everything.

Maya Bialik (41:59)

I want to. I want to zoom in a little bit on love because I also wanted to zoom in on God. And for many people, God is love. For many people who have transcendental experiences, psychedelic experiences, they have an overwhelming and sometimes even foreign to them notion that there is something, right?

Deepak Chopra (42:19)

There's something bigger part of something that's correct.

Maya Bialik (42:23)

And that. That infiniteness is a loving, infinite presence. So while you can have entanglement with hate or you could have a child able to read the mind of someone that they hate, there's something. Love, right? And this sort of hate is a cry for love.

Deepak Chopra (42:37)

That's all it is. So hate is a desperate cry for love.

Maya Bialik (42:43)

I love that. The, The. The mystical notion that, you know, I was taught, and it's a Jewish mystical thought, is that our original creation by God was out of love. And that every relationship that we have as humans is in some way trying to get back to that source and that kind self. Right? The, The. There's no end to it. It's an infinite, unknowable love. But, you know, when I learned about it, it did. It sounded kind of. It does. It has a fluffiness to it, right? And the notion that the way that it's described is that if God stops thinking about us for a second, we cease to exist. That our existence and our awareness is because of a God consciousness.

Deepak Chopra (43:31)

You are in God's dream, right?

Maya Bialik (43:33)

Yes.

Deepak Chopra (43:33)

You're in God's dream. God is dreaming you right now.

Maya Bialik (43:36)

Can you talk a little bit about what it means to think of love not just as an interpersonal love, but as a presence and a source of our existence.

Deepak Chopra (43:49)

So there's a book called A General Theory of Love by a neuroscientist in San Francisco. So what they say, these are neuroscientists. So when two people are in a loving relationship, or it doesn't have to be two people, it can be a dog or whatever, but there's a healer and a Healey. And there's this experience going on of healing. If the healer lovingly pays attention to. To the patient or client, then there's something called. And you would know this limbic resonance that happens. The emotional brain of the two start to resonate together. Then the healer's limbic. So that's level one, limbic resonance, second level is the healers starts to regulate the patient's nervous system, neural networks, just by loving attention. Attention.

Maya Bialik (44:58)

Even without touching them.

Deepak Chopra (45:00)

Without touching them. Attention, which means listening. Affection, which means I care. Appreciation. You're unique. A unique timeline of the universe. And acceptance. I love you irrespective of who you are. Attention, affection, appreciation and acceptance. So then limbic resonance turns into limbic regulation. The neural networks start to rewire and the last stage is limbic revision. Your brain changes.

Maya Bialik (45:37)

You've just described healing. You've described energetic healing. You've explained the reason why healers claim that they can talk to you on.

Deepak Chopra (45:45)

The phone and heal you. Yes, yes. That's non local correlation.

Maya Bialik (45:50)

You've done your work for the day, you can go home.

Deepak Chopra (45:51)

Entanglement. Thank you, goodbye again.

Jonathan Cohen (45:55)

If I'm summarizing, we just said telepathy.

Deepak Chopra (45:59)

Is real, that non local correlation is real.

Jonathan Cohen (46:03)

Yes, non local correlation. Do you have something against the word telepathy? Do you feel like it's.

Deepak Chopra (46:09)

No, I think it's good. But you see, these words are tainted sometimes because of people. So you know, pre ideas of. We know that people have psychic abilities, but then there are people who don't have them and they talk about them, you know, and that's a danger, you see. You have to really see what is legitimate and what is not.

Maya Bialik (46:29)

And you have to have an open enough mind to have these conversations which a lot of people claim that they know everything. And I'm a scientist or I'm a materialist and this is all, you know, talking to you children of mine.

Deepak Chopra (46:41)

Whatever you know actually is an evidence of what you don't know. The more you know, the more you realize that there's much more that you don't know. And then there's even more that you don't know that you don't know. That's why you know Socrates, words, know thyself. You start from there.

Jonathan Cohen (47:06)

We all have extrasensory abilities. The potential for miraculous healing is possible.

Deepak Chopra (47:11)

Yes, it's homeostasis, it's self regulation.

Jonathan Cohen (47:16)

And we're all moving towards that. No matter what state we're in. We're all trying to get back to a level of homeostasis. We can all have a level of intuition and synchronicity to get on the right path, to meet the opportunity that we're prepared for in a way that many of us, by the way, all.

Deepak Chopra (47:32)

These things require removal of your ego identity. You have to have a higher intention. It's not about me, not about me achieving it's.

Jonathan Cohen (47:41)

Looking for the fact that source tapping into the source to align with a higher purpose or my higher purpose or.

Deepak Chopra (47:48)

The higher being, whatever that is, the mystery that we call God.

Jonathan Cohen (47:52)

So one of the biggest steps is to move beyond our limited in our brain thinking and try and tap into it. I've described it and we've, you know, heard others describe it as. You're actually. There's a vibration that you want to get out of your own internal self and try.

Deepak Chopra (48:10)

Everything is a vibration. So you're right. Your body is a vibration. Even your mind is a vibration. You know, thoughts come and go. Your body at the fundamental, most fundamental level is an on, off switch, which now we know as epigenetics. So you're right. Absolutely. It's a vibration.

Maya Bialik (48:27)

So one of the things I wonder if you can talk us through and you know, I know it's simple, especially for Westerners. You know, we were introduced to yoga and we think that means you put on, you know, your sexy pants and you go to a class and it feels great and you sweat it out. The, the practice and the implementation of yoga is. Is only partly what we know of which is poses and you know, that, that kind of thing which often in yoga classes you are taught some breathing and maybe some meditation, depending on the type. For those of us who like kundalini, there's specific mudras and there's mantras that we use and other forms of yoga as well. But can you talk a little bit about. And I love your videos when you do yoga poses and teach people things. They're some of my favorites.

Deepak Chopra (49:16)

78 plus.

Maya Bialik (49:17)

I know this is what I love. I just love them. But I wonder. A lot of people don't know how to get quiet to get quiet in their body and in their mind. And part of the practice of yoga is a journey to helping us do these things. I wonder if you can explain to someone who doesn't know what it feels like or how to start on the road of how to get quiet so that you can start letting some of the. The noise go and feel into your intuition. How do you do it?

Deepak Chopra (49:50)

With YouTube.

Maya Bialik (49:51)

Okay.

Deepak Chopra (49:52)

And those who are listening to us, they can join the experiment. Okay? So guys, please follow the instructions very carefully. Okay?

Maya Bialik (49:59)

Okay.

Deepak Chopra (50:00)

It's not that complicated. You don't have.

Maya Bialik (50:02)

I don't have to take my shirt off like you do in your videos.

Jonathan Cohen (50:04)

Okay.

Deepak Chopra (50:04)

Yeah. Simple question I'm asking.

Maya Bialik (50:07)

Okay.

Deepak Chopra (50:09)

Are you enjoying this conversation?

Maya Bialik (50:12)

Very much.

Jonathan Cohen (50:13)

I mean, I have one more thing to ask, but yes.

Deepak Chopra (50:16)

Yes. Okay. So now What I'm going to do. And guys who are listening and watching us do the same. I'm going to ask you the same question, but don't answer it till I raise my hand. So, same question. And the answer is yes, you're enjoying it, but don't answer it. So are you enjoying this conversation? Yes. Yes. So the question is a thought, the answer is a thought. In between is you consciousness.

Maya Bialik (50:51)

I felt it like I. I felt.

Jonathan Cohen (50:53)

Because you were just holding that stillness for a second because you hadn't.

Deepak Chopra (50:57)

That's God's mind. Okay, God's.

Maya Bialik (51:00)

Wait, do another one. You could do it with anything.

Deepak Chopra (51:03)

So I'll ask you the same question, but don't answer it at all. Just slip into it. Are you enjoying this conversation? And what you're experiencing is presence. It's not even the present moment because the present moment is in time. This is beyond the present moment. It's the presence of the Divine in you as your soul. And that presence hasn't changed since you were a baby. Okay, you were a teenager, an adult, all the way to dusty death. But that presence is not in time. So it's beyond birth and death. In the Vedic, in yoga, they say, water cannot wet it, wind cannot dry it, weapons cannot shatter it, fire cannot burn it. It's ancient, it's unborn, and it is not subject to death. So when you ask an accomplished yogi what happens to us after we die, the yogi will say, I was never born. What is born is experience the vibrations. So your vibration is an on and an off. What you just experienced is the off between the two ons in the off. God's mind. God's mind. God's mind is silence. Everything else is poor translation. And there are many ways to do that about yoga, just to clarify Yoga, there are eight limbs of yoga. So the first two are social intelligence and emotional intelligence. The third is what you go to yoga class for, which is very brilliant. Because the original intention of the yoga postures, there are about 35 standard postures. Sitting postures, standing postures, lying postures, twists, forward bends, backward bends, period. So each posture is a seat of awareness. And if you do it with awareness in each posture, and they have names, happy baby, this, that, the other, you get into that state of consciousness and ultimately you realize you don't have a body. It's a field of consciousness. That's the third limb of yoga. The fourth is breathing Pranayam to regulate your autonomic nervous system. An eavesdrop on the subconscious mind. Done properly, that's the key. So that's the fourth limb. The fifth is called pratyahara, which means withdrawal of the senses and getting into your body and navigating the space inside your body, including control of the autonomic nervous system. And the last three limbs are the peak, which is focused awareness, which is called Dharna, the Dhyan meditation, Samadhi, transcendence. Those last three is the course on, you know, that I'm putting out on psychic abilities.

Jonathan Cohen (53:58)

Last week, earlier in the conversation, you were talking about the Milky Way and inhabitable planets. Correct me if I misheard. You believe there is, we're not alone in the universe, that there is life out there.

Deepak Chopra (54:12)

Yeah, it's called Fermi's paradox originally, but. But, you know, I was just in conversation last week with the head of MIT lab, Dawa Newman, and she's part of the Mars exploration. And she said all the evidence shows that Mars had life before and might have right now, bacterial life. But she and there are now departments of astrobiology at Harvard, at mit, at the University of Arizona. And according to astrobiologists, there is certainly life across the universe as we know it, not just microscopic life as we know it. Like this.

Maya Bialik (55:00)

No.

Deepak Chopra (55:00)

Yeah.

Maya Bialik (55:01)

Wait, wait, wait. When you talk about it, I'm thinking like, there's plants, there's bacteria. You think that there might be people having conversations like this.

Deepak Chopra (55:10)

Look at the latest. I mean, why not, you know, quantum mechanics. The original interpretation was the Copenhagen interpretation. Then there are many others. But right now, multiverse and multi. Multiverse and many worlds theory is the most prominent. And if you can try, get Sean Carroll on your program. He was the head of physics at Caltech, but now he's gone to Chicago, I think. But according to him, there are infinite versions of you across the universe, and that's that, you know, basically now he's a physicalist. For him, they are real universes, but for us, they're all in the imagination of the divine.

Maya Bialik (55:57)

Thank you so much for being here in person. Thank you for including us in your life and this iteration of everything you're bringing to humanity. And thank you.

Deepak Chopra (56:09)

Thank you.

Maya Bialik (56:10)

On my bucket list of things I wanted to have happen in the universe, having Deepak Chopra explain God love, aliens, telepathy, and psychic ability, that we just covered it.

Jonathan Cohen (56:23)

I mean, I think we're his favorite podcast.

Maya Bialik (56:25)

I don't know about that.

Jonathan Cohen (56:26)

That's what I heard from this episode.

Maya Bialik (56:28)

When I first started exploring Deepak Chopra, I was a little bit confused. I didn't really kind of understand. We talked a little bit in our first episode. But when I talked to him today and when we got to sort of connect with him this way, a lot more things kind of lined up in terms of how to use the capabilities to get at those deeper questions. That AI is something that we interact with. It's not this sort of, you know, monolithic thing that is shaping our reality. It is part of the reality that we are shaping as partners with it.

Jonathan Cohen (57:06)

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I'm, I'm still like a little bit struck by him.

Maya Bialik (57:12)

How many versions of me there are in the universe?

Jonathan Cohen (57:14)

How many were there? I need to re. Listen to this. I mean, I'm fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by him being the OG of telepathy. And he describes an experiment that it's pretty profound.

Maya Bialik (57:27)

Well, I mean, for the same reasons that it's okay to have skepticism about, you know, single reports for sure. But the way that he explains it that the connection that someone needs to have with another person, to quote, read their mind, is not dissimilar from what healers describe, from what intense meditators describe. When you can get quiet, you can tap into other forms of your own consciousness. And we didn't get to ask him about the collective consciousness, but that's. He effectively confirmed that there is a collective consciousness if you are then able to tap into that. And love's the answer. Like that's the take home message. Love is the answer. Love is the way that people can communicate in ways that are beyond the material world.

Jonathan Cohen (58:17)

I mean, yes, there's so much here that it feels almost hard to start to even like talk about it. Because you know, what I was thinking while he's saying is this is the philosophical explanation of extrasensory ability, developing your intuition or learning. You know, when he talked about how yogis will say, oh yes, of course remote viewing exists or you can predict the future, but those are only examples to show that consciousness exists.

Maya Bialik (58:51)

Yes.

Jonathan Cohen (58:51)

Material plane.

Maya Bialik (58:52)

Right. I am, I'm thinking about Jill Bolte Taylor. And when her left hemisphere went offline as she was having a stroke, what she started seeing was essentially pixelation. She started seeing energetic movement. Like that is all that's happening is kind of the way to frame it. So it doesn't matter if Aristotle tries to describe it or Jesus tries to describe it, or yogis try and describe it, or someone on mushrooms tries to describe it. Philosophy, quantum mechanics, the spiritual experience, it's all the same.

Jonathan Cohen (59:28)

And if you're taking one step towards that, drugs. No, no, if you're taking one step towards that, it's opening your mind to the idea that it's possible. When he says that we don't see what we don't believe. The first step to changing your life radically and experiencing a limitless experience or the ability to manifest or create the life you want is to really start to imagine the possibility that it's. That it can happen.

Maya Bialik (59:55)

And, and I'm going to give the super practical take home message. That means you have to learn how to breathe and start paying attention to your body. That's it. Like, that's, that's how you get there.

Jonathan Cohen (60:08)

And for you, you start to get away from reactivity. You start to break the pattern.

Maya Bialik (60:11)

You start to. No matter. No matter what you would like to have happen, no matter if you would like to heal your body, no matter if you would like to make more money, no matter if you would like to understand your partner better, no matter if you would like to, you know, understand your gender identity, whatever it is. There is one starting point. And it doesn't matter if that's going to take you off into moving to Canada and backpacking around the world, or if it's going to take you away from the relationship you thought was working, or if it's going to catapult you into a whole different way of looking at your hormone issues. Whatever it is, the starting place for any of this, you cannot get there from here. The starting place is to say, why do people keep telling me to slow down, to meditate, to listen to my breath? What the heck is that? There is not one size fits all. But yes, the fact that, like, what he's talking about is, can you slow down enough to feel what it feels like when you're enjoying a conversation and not just say, here's the reason I liked it. I'm gonna take a picture and put it on Instagram. Right? It's fine to do those things, but that's the level that our brains can start to apply. Change is from understanding that quietness. What does it mean to learn your breath? And it's a process. It doesn't happen the first time. Can you get to the level of touching other aspects of consciousness through meditation? Sure, but that may not be the goal. The goal may be what does it feel like to get quiet and to start being open? And that's the creativity. And that's where intuition comes from.

Jonathan Cohen (61:46)

That was a great explanation from our.

Maya Bialik (61:47)

Breakdown to the one we hope you never have on all the multiverse possibility planets. We'll see you next time.

Deepak Chopra (61:53)

It's Maya Bialik's. Breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. Non fiction. And now she's gonna break down, so break down. She's gonna break it down.