B (2:28)

Let's talk about how many people this actually affects to understand the scope of what we're Talking about, well, if we.

A (2:36)

Trust Valerie, which we do, we couldn't.

B (2:39)

Do anything with Valerie.

A (2:40)

We couldn't do anything without Valerie. But Valerie's research indicates that. I'm just going to go ahead and say it. The majority of people experience some level of codependency. The one of the easiest ways to sort of measure codependency is by estimating how many partners of alcoholics and addicts there are. Because while that's not the only kind of people that are codependent, the early kind of examinations in into codependency came when reflecting on partners of addicts or alcoholics. So it's a really big number either way.

B (3:20)

It's a really big number. And if you're trying to understand, well, what's the implication here, right? We're going to explain it. We're going to break down what does it mean to be codependent? When does it tip the scale from maybe people pleasing and something that you just happen to do to an activity that can actually harm your life and your well being?

A (3:42)

Codependency is referred to as a progressive condition in that the behaviors that you partake in when you are in codependency will likely continue to impact you in cumulative ways and can be very detrimental to your health. And we're going to talk about what some of the decisions are that people make along this road that can lead to progressive codependency.

B (4:08)

Let's step back for a second, Mayim. And if someone is to say you have your fancy labels, everything needs a label these days. I'm just living my life. Tell us why we should pay attention to the idea of codependency and try to understand where we fall on the spectrum.

A (4:28)

Well, Jonathan, I'm glad you asked. I'm going to be talking about one of the classic books in the codependent literature. It's called Codependent no More. You may have heard of it. This is the revised and updated edition. It was originally written in 1986 by Melody Beatty. The reason I'm glad you asked the question this way, Jonathan, is it does take a little bit of history to understand the evolution of this term and how we understand it. So in the 1940s, after the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous, a group of people who were primarily the wives of alcoholics started hanging out together. And what they found was that they needed to do their own kind of recovery and work in order to stay away from meddling with their alcoholics behavior. So what was noticed and this kind of wasn't elucidated till the 70s and 80s was that people in close relationships with certain kinds of people developed patterns of reacting and coping that resembled the coping patterns of people who were in relationships with alcoholics. So what, what kind of doctors, what therapists started seeing is that certain kinds of people tended to have behaviors similar to as if they were in a relationship with an alcoholic. So what it started expanding to was understanding that people who had come from families where there was a sort of unwritten but silent rule about how we interact, how we interrelate and how we communicate sets people up for certain expectations in relationships. So her definition of codependent is someone who has let another person's behavior affect them and who is obsessed with controlling that other person's behavior. So I often identify codependency as like, I'm not okay unless you're okay. But this is a much more specific explanation. Someone who lets someone else's behavior affect them to the point that they, they obsess about controlling that person's behavior. And I know a lot of you are like, I don't control her behavior, I don't control his behavior. That's not what's going on. Guess what? You probably do. And we're going to talk about the details as to how this actually looks in real time.

B (7:01)

I like where you're going here. Can you explain a little bit more? Like give me some specifics. What does it mean to have patterns similar to those of dating an alcoholic? Like if someone doesn't know, if you haven't been in these relationships, what do these patterns actually mean and look like?

A (7:18)

Here are some of the things. Controlling, obsessive helping. I'm just trying to help. Her caretaking coupled with low self worth that often borders on self hatred, an abundance of anger and guilt, a peculiar dependency on peculiar people, an attraction to and tolerance for bizarre other centeredness that results in abandonment of self communication problems, intimacy problems. And this is fascinating. An ongoing whirlwind trip through the five stage grief process. So for anyone who's ever been in a relationship that like keeps breaking up, you're not sure if it's right, you keep getting hurt, you keep going back, you keep going through like denial, bargaining, these things can be features of your own codependent patterns.

B (8:13)

Let's take one by one. I'm really looking for a little bit of narrative here. I'm in a relationship. How do each one of these things actually look? I'll give excessive helping. For example. You see your partner and you know they need to do something for their mental health.

A (8:30)

Stop talking about me and me needing to get sunlight in the morning. Nobody wants to hear about that. All right, here we go. I'm going to keep trying to get at this in the way that satisfies Jonathan, which. Which isn't codependent at all. Codependents want and need sick people around them to be happy in an unhealthy way.

B (8:48)

What does that mean, unhealthy way? Why? I want people to be happy because it makes my life better.

A (8:53)

Jonathan, I need you to take out a piece of paper or your phone. This is. This is a yes or no. If it's a yes, just mark down a hash mark and everybody listening can play along. Have you ever worried yourself sick about someone else?

B (9:10)

I mean, John was a long time.

A (9:12)

Yes. That's a yes for you. And worried yourself sick about other people means you're up at night thinking about someone else. You're coming up with solutions for problems they haven't asked you to solve. You're spending your time thinking about the other person when it's not required. Have you ever tried to help in ways that didn't help? Have you ever. Doesn't have to be with the same person, just in. In all relating. Have you ever said yes when you meant no? And in case you're like, of course not. Think about sex. People think about sex when maybe you.

B (9:56)

Think about helping people move.

A (9:59)

Have you ever tried to make other people see things your way?

B (10:04)

I mean, if you don't try, how can they see them?

A (10:06)

Okay, are we keeping track? Have you ever bent over backward to avoid hurting people's feelings and in doing so, hurt yourself?

B (10:15)

Give an example. Give an. Give us an example.

A (10:18)

To avoid hurting somebody's feelings. Going on a date with someone when you knew you didn't want to go on a date with them. Giving up your time, buying someone tickets to a concert because you thought it's what they wanted, even though you don't want to waste that money and don't have the money to spend? Have you ever been afraid to trust your own feelings? Have you ever believed lies and then felt betrayed, meaning someone lied to you and you got hurt because of it? Have you ever felt the need to get even and punish. This is a good one. Have you ever felt so angry you wanted to kill someone? Have you ever struggled for your own rights when people told you you didn't have any? This looks like trying to assert your needs, your space, and being told you're not important. And finally, have you ever worn sackcloth because you didn't believe you Deserved silk. This is self abnegation is what that's called. Have you ever worn sackcloth because you didn't believe that you deserved silk? So this is 11 questions, not bragging. I got 10 of them. So what this is painting is a portrait of not just someone who's doing for other people or obsessively worrying and caretaking other people. It's the set of behaviors that leads to these feelings of low self worth, anger. You know, it's when people say that their non alcoholic parent was more troublesome than their alcoholic parent. It's when the person who is trying so freaking hard to keep it together and trying so hard to manage, control, fix, make it right that they become a mess. That is, that is what this book is, exploring these patterns.

B (12:11)

Before we get there, what's the cutoff? What do you have to score on that quiz to say this is just normal functioning? Because look, when you say, and I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, but when someone says, have you ever, well, you're a young person, you don't know what the social expectations are. You don't know how to stand up for yourself right away versus how often is this happening in your life in the present moment, in the last year? Those are very, very different.

A (12:39)

The idea is, are you seeing this as a pattern? Are you the common denominator in all of these kinds of interactions? Progressive codependency, meaning the way to know that this, you know, has sort of become a cumulative and progressive problem is often depression. It's often isolation, feeling hopeless, becoming seriously emotionally, mentally or physically ill, Eating disorders, addictions to alcohol, drugs. Right. So these are the kinds of things that, that she identifies happen in kind of later, you know, codependency. But the earlier stages, it can be really confusing.

B (13:18)

Understanding boundaries, understanding what the social expectations are. A lot of this stuff feels like until it becomes a habitual pattern, we are just trying to figure things out.

A (13:31)

What codependent no More talks about is some of these patterns that arise in dysfunctional homes. Even if there's not alcoholism present in dysfunctional homes, homes with abuse, even homes that aren't dysfunctional, but have someone who's chronically ill. You can see these sort of patterns start to emerge. And what it is, is it's people trying to make sense of a situation where in many cases, as a young person, if you're a child, your needs may not be met. And so you get esteem from being helpful, from being involved or from being silent and not having any needs. And codependency is one of these things as I'm reading this book. You can have both sides of behavior. You act out or you don't act at all. But in general, the pattern is someone who will be in a pattern that they feel they cannot escape or they will pursue relationships that they cannot escape. And that kind of becomes the cycle.

B (14:37)

So there's two sides of this coin you're describing. One is that you get your self worth from helping whoever's in the most need. So if that's an alcoholic parent or dysfunctional parent, they may not have a schedule, they may have health issues, they may need you to cover for them. There may be younger children in the house who, where you have to take care of them. You may have to go grocery shopping. You may have to deal with adult aspects because they're not taking care of things. If there's a sick family member, it may be the same because that six family member can't take on the responsibility. So you may be caretaking for them and stepping into that role where you're getting your self esteem and that validation and that acceptance from the family by doing things that are not inherently building yourself up. And that sets that pattern. So in a normal household, or if there is such a thing as quote unquote normal, in an ideal situation, the majority of the interaction for the child is that they the activity centering around, bettering them, furthering them, pursuing an activity for them. They're able to explore their own needs and emotions in without the pressure of someone else's needs and emotions overriding what they might need.

A (15:53)

So what that looks like though, when you get into a grownup relationship because you're no longer in your family of origin. What does it look like? So this falls under sort of the, the caretaking category of codependency that she talks about thinking and feeling that you are responsible for other people, meaning not just that you have responsibilities to another person, but that you are responsible for other people's feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well being, lack of well being and ultimate destin. Destiny.

B (16:25)

Ultimate destiny. That's a big one. If you don't intervene right, their life is going to go off the rails so much as to not fulfill their destiny or that you are responsible for them in some sort of really significant way.

A (16:38)

Feeling anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem. So this is the kind of like in the middle of the night you're thinking about a problem that's not even yours, feeling like because you can't fix it, it's your Responsibility to do so, even if it's not your problem and you haven't been asked to fix it. That's a feature of a caretaking kind of codependent pattern.

B (17:02)

And how many times have we heard, and people have talked about the power in letting someone have a really big emotion and not reacting to it, not taking it on, whether that be they're upset and angry and you know that what, you've made a decision that, that they've reacted out of anger, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't have made that decision. Or they're really upset and you can't fix that upset. Maybe they're sad, maybe they're going through something and you just have to be there and are able to hold space for them to work it out themselves. It's not something for you to take on and fix.

A (17:33)

Here's a feature of caretaking that I think in our culture is especially emphasized for. For women anticipating other people's needs. So there's nothing wrong inherently with anticipating somebody else's needs. Especially if you're a parent, it's kind of your job to anticipate the needs of a child. But over preparing and over prepping because you're afraid of someone else's needs or reactions. That's where we get a little bit fuzzy here.

B (18:02)

Explain that one to us. How does it play out in practical terms?

A (18:07)

If, let's say you have a partner and your partner, let's say it's your. You're. You're in charge of dinner for the night. So to me, like having dinner ready when your partner comes home, there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't feel codependent to me. Right. We're all in the clear about this. However, if you have a partner who, if they don't have things just so they will get upset and this leads you to, let's say, doing extra cleaning around the house, you know, preparing their drink, just so preparing something for them. This is something I've done before. You're preparing like a drink for someone and like, oh, it's not right. I gotta start again. I gotta start again. It's not the right proportions. I gotta do it again. Right. Like that kind of anticipation of if this is not right, what's going to happen. Or, gosh, they had a hard day at work. And it's one thing to say, someone had a hard day at work, I want to do something nice for them. Again, we're in the clear. Where it tips into like, er, is I really have this class I was supposed to go to that I really enjoy, but they had a hard day so I should stay home and make sure that they're okay. I should, you know, set things up so that when I get home from my class they're not upset that I went out when they needed me. Right. These kinds of things. Do you see how much time it takes? And I think that's one of the ways that I'm sort of deciding what's just like being a nice partner or friend, what's the time that it takes, what's the calculation that I'm doing to try and prevent or arrange a mood of the another person.

B (19:46)

I think that's a great example. The difference being I have a class, I want to go out, I know they've had a hard day. Is it in my schedule, is it in my bandwidth to do something nice and set something up that doesn't feel like it's taking away the thing that I need to take care of myself? Or is it what you described, where you're going through mental gymnastics in a way that there feels like there's a negative repercussion that you're afraid of if you don't take these actions right.

A (20:13)

And so that, you know, kind of goes into. Also one of the other aspects of codependence is the controlling. And a lot of people think of controlling as like my mean dad was controlling. But controlling can look like a lot of different things and it can often look like over caring. So co. Many codependents become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally. So the behind the scenes aspect of I'm going to control this situation, I'm going to control these friends who I'm afraid won't get along. And so I'm going to do all this back channeling and I'm going to arrange it just so or I'm going to uninvite this person or I'm going to lie to this person so that they don't know that I'm getting together with these other people because they might be upset. You know, like that kind of, that, that's controlling. It's a way of trying to control a situation honestly for our comfort. Interestingly, many codependents who control feel controlled by other people. And it's sort of this push pull, right? Of like I never get my way. Why can't it just go the way I want? I want to emphasize again that the other aspect of codependency, the things that we're talking about in and of themselves. Those don't make for codependency. The personality type that was identified was one that in addition to the, in addition to these kinds of behaviors, you also see low self worth, denial, a lot of attachment problems, seeking love from people incapable of loving, always having to prove that you're good enough to be loved. These are things that you sort of look at that go together. So it's not just the aspects of being over invested in other people's lives, it's that you grow an anger and a resentment and a sadness as a result of the inability to effectively control situations and people.

B (22:14)

We know people, sometimes they get into relationships and that person loves this particular activity. And now the couple is really into pickleball, for example, or gardening or bird watching. And there's a healthy level of mutual interest. But when someone starts to lose themselves, well, what does it mean to really know yourself, have your own desires, have your own sense of self while still being in healthy relation with other people.

A (22:41)

What are your needs? What do you like? What do you want to do? Right? And so many of us are used to saying, well, whatever they want to do or whatever they want to do, because if we don't do it, they will be. And then fill in the blank. Upset, disappointed, upset or angry, whatever it.

B (23:02)

Is, or if I say what I want to do and they try to come with me, they're going to make it miserable and I'd rather not bring them.

A (23:10)

Didn't need to get personal, Jonathan. So yes, one of the things that it is recommended is learn about yourself and your needs without thinking about other people's needs. Meaning if those other needs were not necessary for my functioning, what do I actually want and need?

B (23:31)

Some people can think, well, I'll just make this accommodation, I don't really care, I don't have an opinion, I'm just going to go along with it. It's easier, right? And we actually talked about this on the Mel Robbins podcast. She asked me something, I forget what she asked me, but my answer was I had spent so much time thinking, well, I'm going to manage this situation over here because I know that if I want to go do something else, like I don't know, even go to the gym or do something else, but that takes away time from family time, then my ex was going to be upset, so it was easier for me not to do that so that my ex wasn't upset. And. But what ends up happening as we subjugate our needs and we don't know what it is that we want? We actually lose a level of personal agency and vitality, you know, if we think about, again, spiritually that we're all here and we have needs and actually taking steps to serve our own needs. Find out what we like, find out what our preferences are, are an act of self love that energize us, that give us desire to live. As we slowly chip away at that and start to give up that opportunity to know ourselves in that way and to actualize ourselves in that way, that's where we get on a chronic basis. Anxiety, depression, emptiness, feelings of powerlessness, diminished sense of self esteem, hopelessness. We aren't able to give ourselves or be present with our partner. So we end up not really having much left over when we think we're making the right choice to remove conflict.

A (25:11)

Well, I mean, that's all fine and good and true, but if. If anyone out there has ever dated a train wreck and you feel that you are responsible for their survival, all that goes out the window. That's what it feels like. It feels like my job is, is to make sure this person doesn't fill in the blank, get drunk, get high, yell, hit, like whatever it is. Someone dubbed me the owner of all the rights and privileges to fix that other person. And I think what it is, is it's really uncomfortable and in many cases unsafe, you know, for another person to be out of control. But what this book and what sort of all of these, you know, tips and tricks that we're going to be giving are hopefully going to provide is a sort of framework to understand what it means to not try and stop a crisis. Meaning we're not that powerful and we lose a part of ourself when we so step into trying to solve someone else's crisis.

B (26:22)

I like that we lose a part of ourselves when we step in to solve someone else's crisis. And this can be especially hard for people who are intelligent, insightful, empathetic, have a lot of empathetic, have a lot of answers.

A (26:37)

I have so much love to give. Everybody just should accept it.

B (26:41)

But people have their own path and they have to learn things in their own way. You can't prevent someone else's learning.

A (26:48)

This is also not just a feature of romantic relationships. This is a feature of friendships as well. And I've seen enough TV shows about lady friendships to know that this is a common theme that often happens. If you've ever had a friend who's a train wreck and you know, you want to rescue, you want to help, you want to be there, you know, who's the person at a party when, like someone's getting sick. Who's the person holding their hair and stroking their back. Right. Likely a future codependent.

B (27:24)

It can also be people who give the best advice. You're like, look, I know your life will be better if you quit that job. You stop dating this person. You do this exercise, you take this vitamin supplement, like, oh, you're getting the flu every three weeks.

A (27:40)

Let's see if this is a. Can you get this right? Why does trying to force someone. Why does even encouraging someone to do what you think that they should do actually not help them?

B (27:54)

I'm going to get this answer wrong because I'm going to double down on the people who have a little bit of codependent tendencies who are like, I'm doing good in the world. I am of the belief that a lot of people out there just need a little bit of information that they don't have.

A (28:11)

Nope.

B (28:13)

Now the balance is in how do you give that information? No, we've had the.

A (28:19)

You're getting everything wrong. You're getting everything wrong.

B (28:22)

We've had the privilege on this podcast of speaking to like 50 experts and they've given us all this advice and people are, have deep dived on health solutions. And some friends call me up and be like, hey, I have this problem. And I'm like, oh, we spoke to someone. They kind of have this answer and I direct them to that. I don't think that's codependent.

A (28:40)

Okay, so what? Okay, so hold on. So what you're describing is, oh, this person is interested in information. I'm giving that person information. If you can do that for fun and for free, great. Mazel tov. Happy for you.

B (28:52)

What I'm not doing is following up and saying, did you do this thing? Oh, pointing out the fact that your life still has this problem because you didn't follow my advice. And here's the follow up protocol. And really, you know, did texting them in the morning, did you go get your natural light? Is your circadian rhythm broken? Are you still looking at your screens before bed?

A (29:11)

Losing sleep, wondering what they're doing? And this doesn't have to be a romantic partner. This could be a friend, you know, finding or searching out additional information for that person. Those are the ways that it becomes problematic. And the second component, I'm talking about not just the behaviors, but the feelings that come with it. Are you ruminating and saying, I always try and help this person. Why don't they fucking listen? Why don't they get it? I'm anxious now I'm sad. This is unfulfilling. That's sort of the two. The two handed codependent. Now what. What I. What I was looking for you to say, which if, you know, I think Mel Robbins talked about it and we've talked about it a million times. People don't change until they're ready to. And the fact is you don't know what someone's bottom is. When you try and insert yourself and say, now's the time for you to dump him, get out of that relationship, that person may actually not have the tools necessary to extricate themselves from the relationship in a healthy, sustaining way. So what you're doing is you're inserting your thoughts and behaviors into someone else's life when they may not have the skills to actually follow through on what they need to do, which is not your business. It's between them and their higher power, right? So when we insert ourselves, we are robbing that person, what they say, the dignity of their own in some shitty mistakes. They get to do that. They get to live that. Now, when I think about as a mom, when people are told to do this with their kids, and she talks about this in the book, when your kid is wreaking havoc in your home, when they're dealing drugs, when the cops are coming to your house repeatedly, what does it look like, you know, to balance out not wanting to step in and stop this crisis versus does this person have to have their own experience of life and have it run its course? What if they die? What if they don't make it right? So a lot of the tips about codependency, which I'd like to get to do, involve ways to bolster yourself so that you're better able to discern when you do need to act and when you need to, you don't need to act.

B (31:21)

The topic of children is exceptionally complicated because we have a role. We know that the prefrontal cortex isn't finished developing until they're 25. They're not able to have the foresight necessary to make better decisions for themselves. So we as parents are that for them, they're relying on us. And so that one is a really, really difficult one. But the similarity in the other pieces that you talked about are this idea of knowing what the need is and the sense of, you know, a codependent can feel very guilty when they assert their need because they're used to having to suppress it or not be connected to it.

A (32:01)

And if you constantly feel like you're giving advice and nobody's listening. Yeah. It has its own kind of pattern that it then creates in you of what's my worth? What am I here for? It can be very kind of self defeating and it is. It's a very insidious kind of pattern of feeling so, you know, so important and so able to control and help other people and yet feel so depleted yourself. And what that is is exactly what you talked about, like the metaphysical of like, oh, it's their life force. It's energy and resources. If you are constantly consumed with giving your resources to other people instead of yourself. And if you are deficient in, in self care, self love, things that give you esteem about yourself. Yeah. What we know from pretty much every other episode that we've done the last two years is that your immune system will not function the same way. Your physiology will not support that kind of energetic output of worry and anxiety. It just won't. And that's where the progressive codependency comes in.

B (33:11)

So let's talk about the steps that help people start to identify their feelings, start to learn to understand what they need when a boundary is being crossed. How to feel. Okay. Setting and articulating what they need and asserting themselves. These are all the ways to get out of chronic anger, to get back into knowing how to make decisions. Because, you know, what I could really relate to in a lot of what we're talking about is, is the symptom of being unable to make a decision. And if you can't make a decision and you're spiraling like that, the likelihood is you don't know what the need is. You don't know what the primary feelings are, and you don't know what the need is. Once you can articulate what do I need in this moment, then the decisions become much easier. And if you don't have guilt around the need, then the clarity of what action to take reveals itself.

A (34:07)

So the first, the first tool that, that Melody Beatty discusses is detachment. Now when you think about detachment, it's kind of a word that's thrown about.

B (34:21)

It could have a negative connotation. You're like, I'm so detached. I'm just above this all. I'm not really engaged with you.

A (34:27)

Right. And that's not what this detachment is talking about. The notion of the need for detachment in order to start repairing some of these codependent patterns is the acknowledgement that the attachment that you have is detaching you from yourself. That's kind of the most basic concept. My over Attachment, whatever that looks like, whatever it feels like, that is detaching me from myself. So detachment is not a cold, hostile withdrawal. It's not a resigned, despairing acceptance of anything life and people throw our way. It is not a robotic walk through life oblivion, oblivious to and totally unaffected by people and problems. It's not a Pollyanna ish, ignorant bliss. It's not a shirking of our true responsibilities to ourselves and others. And it's not a severing of our relationship, nor is it a removal of our love and concern. So that's already probably surprising to people because most people think like, oh, that sounds like what I'm supposed to do when you tell me to detach. So detachment is releasing or detaching from a person or a problem in love, meaning lovingly. Lovingly. We mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically disengage ourselves from unhealthy entanglements with others lives and responsibilities and from problems we cannot solve.

B (35:51)

Very powerful. And you can even visualize it, right? If someone has a problem and they've shared it with you, and you can almost feel it washing over you and you carrying it. And you can tell if you're doing that by are you starting to get more anxious? Do you feel unsettled? You know, is there a really a very somatic difference in your sensing after someone has shared something with you? And you can do a quick visualization of closing your eyes and imagining everything that that person just said to you, them holding it and you being separate from that. And that visual of that space between you two can allow you to reconnect to yourself. And you may even see remnants of what they shared with you. If you see it as a color or you see it as a shape, it can be passed back to them. And again, creating that space between yourselves can allow you to then breathe, feel lighter, and reconnect to what you feel like without holding on to what they've just shared with you.

A (36:52)

One more note on detachment before we get to the next tool. If you've spoken to any child specialist, like Dr. Siggy, who I've done Instagram lives with and who I talk about a lot, when a child presents a problem, it's actually not your job to fix it. So even with our children we're getting the opportunity to practice this tool, we are told to do reflective listening. Dr. Becky talks about this also. I mean, this has been spoken about in Leleche League circles and Gentle discipline circles for a million years. Reflect back what you heard and see what your child thinks. Some solutions Might be you don't have to fix every problem anyone has, even if it's your kid in the moment. Huh. What do you think a solution to that might be? I think my kid's not gonna get enough community service hours that he's supposed to get this year. But I'm just gonna wait and see what happens. I'm just gonna wait, try not to think about it too much. And if we do get that email, what I plan to say is, what do you think we should do about this? Right. So that's an example of detachment. And detachment is also about acceptance. It's about accepting the reality of a situation, accepting the reality of someone else's situation, and accepting the reality that you cannot change their reality for them. That's detachment. So that's the first kind of category that we need to learn about.

B (38:20)

Absolutely. The detachment is also in slowing down because we immediately go to these reactions of, oh, I'm going to get him those hours. I'm going to call, I'm going to sign him up, I'm going to make sure he goes there. Versus. Hmm, isn't that interesting? Something Suzanne Giesemanne would say. Hmm, isn't that interesting? Slows everything down and makes us not the immediate problem solver.

A (38:48)

Another tool. And I really, I highly recommend. I mean, this is such a classic codependent no more. I can't believe I've never read it. You know, I've heard about it for years, but I really, really highly recommend it. We're just going to be talking about a few of the tips. Also, at the end of every chapter, there's writing activities. You can kind of. You could do it with a group, you know, a friends, as a workbook. Um, but don't be codependent if they don't do it on time or the way that you need just do your own thing. Um, another category or another tool that she talks about is don't be blown about by every wind. And what she talks about is that codependents are. Are often reactors, but not actors, Meaning we're really good at reacting to things, getting upset, planning, fixing, stepping in like everything's a crisis, like fixing every crisis, but in terms of acting on behalf of ourselves. Usually hard to do, but we do love a good reaction. She says, I reacted to almost everything that came into my awareness and environment. My entire life had been a reaction to other people's lives, desires, problems, faults, successes, and personalities. Even my low self worth had been a reaction. I was like a puppet with strings hanging out, inviting and Allowing anyone or anything to yank them. Most codependents are reactionaries. Some use anger, guilt, shame, self hate, worry, hurt, controlling gestures, caretaking, depression, desperation. But it's all about that reaction. And so what does it look like to lower reactivity? We've talked about some of these things. You know, we've talked about what it means to lower your own nervous system's ability to be reactive. Right. When we talk about a reactive nervous system or an overactive sympathetic nervous system, we talk about breath work. I mean, we've talked about it with name the person. We've talked about it with Sam Harris, with Peter Attia, We've talked about it with Joe Dispenza. I mean, like everybody, this is a thing.

B (40:50)

If you're reactive, you are not dictating the actions that will help you the most.

A (40:57)

Correct. And help the other person the most. Because what happens is you get into this sort of spin and you're now in a reactive sort of relationship that just perpetuates actually a different kind of chaos, which likely is not going to help anyone.

B (41:12)

We also know that the first reaction is likely not the best.

A (41:19)

My first thought is horrible.

B (41:21)

Well, it's, it's kind of like the inverse creativity. You're like, just say the first thing and it will lead to the next better thing. Well, sometimes we just have to have an emotion. We have to have a thought and you know, maybe like, oh, f. And what the heck? But that changes, right? You're like, oh, it's actually not so bad. We are pre designed to not want change. And so when we are upset or when we get blindsided or surprised by something, our tendency is to hold on to the reality that we've had. But taking a beat, letting the thing unfold, using a phrase like isn't that interesting? Or what might this be telling me? Seeing it from a different perspective, not going from that animal instinct helps us find a larger meaning and acceptance in what's happening. And then that's where the magic happens. Because a new option will present itself to us that we would not have had if we moved too quickly.

A (42:21)

I'm also thinking of Martha Beck, I'm also thinking of Byron, Katie, because what if you just take an exercise, do it for an hour, do it for three hours, six hours of the day, do it for one day, See how many times you are reacting to something that may not need a reaction, meaning you realize later like, oh, he didn't really mean that, or oh, that email was clarified. Right. How many times are you reacting and what are the Externalizing behaviors that you're doing when you're reacting. Just see what happens in a day. I mean, Martha Beck said when she stopped lying, right? Lying about little things, big things, lying to us, her physiology changed, her nervous system changed. Right. I kind of wonder with. With reactivity if it's a similar thing, right? If we. If we can just start having awareness about how much of our day, how much of our energy is spent in reaction, how much that could change.

B (43:22)

If the situation turns out to need the same reaction that you had right away, you're not going to miss the opportunity.

A (43:34)

Very few things are urgent like very few things are life or death with a lot of these things. And that's actually one of the hardest things to do. And I think that's the sort of magic tool to stop reactivity. It's called pause, I've heard. Postpone action until serenity ensues. It's an acronym. Postpone action until serenity ensues. What happens if you pause? What happens if you just wait? Just wait. See what happens. How many times have I literally, like, reacted to an email, a slack a thing, and it turns out there was more information.

B (44:13)

It's so easy, especially with texts and slacks and things that come in really quickly and you're doing a few other things. It's like, why is that thing happening?

A (44:23)

The third tool that I'd like to talk about. So we talked about detachment, we talked about reactivity, and I'd like to talk about anger. No, we don't want to talk about anger. Anger's really, really rough. Anger's a hard one. And turns out, so happens people who grew up in complicated homes, alcoholic homes, abusive homes, dysfunctional homes, homes with chronic illness. Apparently, if you're a child growing up in that kind of house, you have a lot of anger. You have a lot of anger. And in many cases, it's covering up sadness. Sometimes anger is easier to feel than sadness. But even people who don't think they have anger, you have anger, and it gets stuck in your body and it does all sorts of prickly things. So she has a list here of things that many of us believe about anger. I'm just gonna list the ones that I believe. It's not the whole list, but anger is a waste of time and energy. Nice. People don't get angry. If we allow ourselves to feel our anger, we will lose control of ourselves. Here's my favorite. People will leave if we get angry with them. Wait for it. People will leave if they get angry with us. And I'm A real like, oh, I don't want to show my anger. Because what if they leave? Right? Because it's like a core principle of mine is like, I don't want to be left. But it never occurred to me that other people experiencing anger causes the same fear. That, like, anger means leaving, right? If people get angry with us, we must have done something wrong. I always assume I've done something wrong. And, like, it can be someone. Like, if someone thinks that I made a wrong turn in a parking lot, even if I know that I haven't, my reality will get twisted by your anger. That's how powerful and scary anger is to me. I begin to doubt myself, right? If we feel angry with someone, the relationship's over and that person has to leave. I'm like, mm, that's totally it. That's makes total sense to me. Why is that in this book? Under Things that Aren't True About Anger, if we feel angry, we have to shout and holler. I know no other way to be angry. I don't even know what it looks like. What. What you can say I'm angry without screaming and throwing things. Doesn't make sense to me. If someone feels angry with us, it means they don't love us anymore. Like, I think that's an organizing principle for me. And here's the last one I want to highlight. It's okay to feel anger only when we can justify our feelings. Meaning if I don't have a legitimate, objective right to be angry, I shouldn't be angry. As opposed to, like, anger's an emotion that happens to us. It indicates something. Apparently, it's helpful to process it. Like, none of these things occurred to me. These things feel like truths. Like, when I look at this list of things like the myths about anger, I'm like, nope, these are the truths about anger. So she talks about this provocative emotion of anger and how it can be so destructive, not just for us, but for other people. And it's the way that it can be explosive when it's pent up. Or the way it can hurt us when we don't express it.

B (47:49)

Unexpressed anger is extremely toxic.

A (47:53)

I got so much of it.

B (47:55)

That stuff just is insidious. It attacks us. It destroys our joy. It destroys our motivation to. Really destroys our motivation to. To live because it is such a heavy weight.

A (48:11)

I'm laughing, but that sounds really bad.

B (48:14)

Well, it is a signal that something has violated a need or a boundary of ours. And if we then say, I'm not allowed to express that or experience it even or acknowledge it, then it cuts to our fundamental life force of having needs, having desires, having self agency. What I think is fascinating is this idea that if. If you're in a parking lot and someone gets angry at you, it's your fault. Now, if you understand that most people are highly reactive, it may be that they are reacting to something that has more context, or it may be that you made a wrong turn and that is okay. That you acknowledge, oh, you put your hand up. I'm so sorry. I really was not paying attention and I did something wrong. And depending on their level of rage, of course, we should be scared because people fly off the handle. But in a normal circumstance, that would just be a moment of boundary of, oh, you cut someone off, or you almost had a small fender bender in a parking lot. Yeah, you got to pay more attention. But to internalize it like that before evaluating.

A (49:28)

Well, and I think it's more about that interaction that for me, anger means they're right. Right. Like whoever. Whoever's yelling just shuts down. Right. Like whoever's. Whoever's yelling, I must have done something wrong. It's me. And that is its own kind of, you know, reaction to someone else's anger because it's me questioning my reality. It's me not asserting myself. It's me not having enough boundary to say, like, oh, someone else might be upset that, you know, I turned this way or whatever. And I am very, notoriously, very difficult in parking lots. I don't understand which way to go. Like, it takes me a second to clog which way the cars are parked and I'm going the wrong way. Like, I don't excel in parking lots.

B (50:10)

Let's talk about the difference between anger and rage. It's something that I've recently done a lot of exploration on. We assume that anger is not safe because we associate it with rage. Rage is a destructive force. Anger can be a very productive force.

A (50:28)

Says you.

B (50:29)

Anger that boils into rage is then usually directed at someone not in a healthy manner. It can be instead of, I feel angry with you, I need a minute to cool down, or I need to move my body to let the anger out. Instead, it's, you're this problem, you're that problem. You did this. It's a lot of you statements that can then attack the person. It can also be breaking things, throwing things, slamming things, and again, that destructive force.

A (50:59)

Yeah. And I think. And also just to sort of like loop it back to learning about anger. If you grew up in a home where anger and Rage were married. Of course you're going to have, you know, this sort of lack of understanding of the purpose of anger. You know, when someone I've heard healthy people say, like, oh, I expressed my angry feelings, and, you know, the other person, you know, really heard me, and I just, I felt so much better. Like, what's that? Like, what is that? What does that mean? What, you didn't break up. You didn't have to, like, duke it out in the parking lot.

B (51:33)

If you can say to someone, I'm really upset, but if you can say that, you can be angry. You cannot be threatening. You're not standing over the person using physical intimidation. You're not waving your arms in a close, close environment. You're.

A (51:50)

Again, this is getting very personal, Jonathan.

B (51:53)

You're expressing upsetness.

A (51:57)

I'm angry that you did this. It made me feel like this.

B (52:01)

Or I'm just upset. I'm really, really upset right now. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to explain it. I'm just going to be able to huff and puff and let that out. It's a valve release.

A (52:12)

And, and men do it differently than women, and some women do it differently than women. But there's also, there's differences in how people do that. And sometimes I find that scary, for sure.

B (52:22)

But when you don't have that, because a partner may be like, if they're angry, I have to fix it and I need to know what you're angry about. So we have to justify it and talk about it and, oh, I want to explain to you why you shouldn't be angry. The valve never gets released. Or if I'm afraid to be angry to express my anger because I'm afraid that my partner is going to crumble and start crying and make their emotions bigger than mine, and then I don't get to have anger, then no one is able to get that valve release. And then you get to a point where the boundary keeps getting pushed, pushed, pushed. People are suppressing that anger. And then you get the rage. Moments where these unresolved issues culminate and then they eventually explode. That's when anger becomes destructive versus a productive force.

A (53:09)

There's so many other tips and tools, and I just really was so moved by finally reading Codependent no More that really wanted to share it. You know, other kinds of tools that are talked about in the book. Have a love affair with yourself. What does that look like? Feel your own feelings. There's a whole chapter on communication. There is information about 12 step programs that she talks about in the book Soothe Yourself, Learning to Live and Love Again. It's a really, really, it's such a great classic and really appreciate being able to talk about it a bit as I've been reading it and enjoying it.

B (53:47)

What do you do if you have a loved one who's codependent? Who you think is codependent?

A (53:50)

If you have a loved one that you think is codependent, you're probably codependent.

B (53:56)

Go to Coda together.

A (53:57)

It's true. She literally says in this book, if you're reading this book for someone else, you need to read this book for yourself.

B (54:06)

If that's the case, share this episode with the person you think is codependent and you can both listen to it together.

A (54:13)

I mean, look, it's, it is. Many relationships have components of codependency in both directions. Typically you do see, you know, one partner sort of being more of that kind of codependent, you know, caretaker with again, the associated, you know, kind of emotional features that, that she talks about. You know, the low self worth and the thinking everything's your fault and feeling resentful that no one's listening to you. Things like that. So yeah, we hope this has been helpful and happy to hear what you think about codependency. So make sure to comment below and yeah, share this episode with someone that you think might be codependent.

B (54:54)

We are fascinated to hear your score on the test. On the little quiz that happened, it was out of 11. So post the number of yeses you got out of 11 in the comments. If you enjoy these explainer exploratory breakdowns, let us know in the comments. That's also helpful. This is a new format we're trying out. If you haven't already subscribed to the show, it does help us out. Click the little bell notification on YouTube or subscribe anywhere you get podcasts. We really do appreciate it so much and it helps us make more.

A (55:27)

From our exploratory breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

B (55:30)

It's my ambialix breakdown she's gonna break it down for you she's got a neuroscience PhD or two non fiction and now she's gonna break down so break down she's gonna break it down.