← Mayo Clinic On Human Optimization
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- [00:02]
A
You know, it's funny, I was talking to a friend about state of flow, and he says, oh, I get into it all the time on my Instagram, on my YouTube. And I said, the two hours you spend on YouTube or Instagram should not be considered state of flow.
- [00:18]
B
This is Mayo Clinic on Human Optimization, a podcast where we break down the science of human potential to help you understand how purpose driven effort leads to high level performance and long term well being. I'm Dr. Chris for Camp, Director of High Performance for the Minnesota Twins, and a sports medicine surgeon with Mayo Clinic. Hopefully you've had the experience of getting totally lost in work or activities that you love so much that you actually lose track of time. We become our most productive selves in what is often referred to as the state of flow. When done well, flow can be like a superpower for our personal fulfillment and progress. Our expert guest today is Bijou Sam Cuddy, the Chief Operating Officer of international and enterprise automation for Mayo Clinic. Renowned for his ability to align people, processes and technology, Bijou leads Mayo Clinic's global expansion efforts, overseeing initiatives that include managing international patients, building strategic collaborations, and establishing new international entities. The three big questions that we're going to work through with BG today are, number one, what is the state of flow and why is it critical for performance and well being? Big question. Number two, why do we struggle to access flow consistently? And how does this shortfall hurt our productivity and happiness? And then finally in our third section, we'll ask, what proven methods can we use to maximize flow in daily life and work? All right, well, Biju, thank you so much for joining us for this program. Really excited to have this discussion with you.
- [01:59]
A
Yeah, I'm super excited to have this as well.
- [02:02]
B
So I'm wondering, just to get us going, can you give us a simple definition of what flow actually is?
- [02:08]
A
Yeah. You know, when I think of flow, I think about those moments where you're just all consumed by an activity, event, a thing that you are focused on. Those moments where you're so consumed by a topic or activity that time doesn't matter. Other things don't matter, those pings on your phone for the moment don't matter. You're consumed by this one act, this one thing, and you want to get it right and you want to do it right. It's like recently I was working on figuring out how we deploy new technology here at Mayo, and I got so excited. The next thing I know, three hours later, I'm still looking at this thing, excited about it, figuring out how it plays out in the world consumed for those few hours and time just didn't seem relevant in the moment. And when I think about flow, I think about that a little bit.
- [03:00]
B
I find it fascinating that, you know, you gave an example of flow for advancing new technology. That doesn't do it for me. And so it's, it's a very unique thing. Right. And it's different for each of us, what sort of puts us in that state of flow. But I do think there's some commonalities to it. So in your opinion, what are some of the key elements that need to be in place for somebody to get into that experience of flow?
- [03:28]
A
Yeah, when I think about it, I think about four fundamental things. First is the right level of challenge. Something that pushes you just enough, forces you to start really getting the gears in your head going. But it's not so challenging that it overwhelms you, consumes you, gets you to a point that this doesn't seem exciting to you. The second thing for me is it has to matter. And that doesn't mean you have to be solving for world hunger, but it does mean that you gotta have some pride in the work that's being done, why it's important, the impact that it's gonna make. And that can look different for people. Right. We're building a home right now and I was meeting with our cabinet makers and the lead cabinet maker is so passionate about getting every little detail. Totally doesn't get me excited. But I love that he was excited about it and he got going on that CAD design and then 20 minutes going by and I'm like, woo hoo. I'm still here in the conversation. But for him it mattered that it was right and it had an impact. Because his comment to me was, you're gonna live with this for the rest of your life, hopefully. And his comment is, I wanna be that person that you remember making this right for you for the rest of your life. So it mattered though. I think thirdly, it has to have some kind of clear end or target. Sometimes people get into work and they don't know what they're trying to do, that becomes an issue. Right. Because by nature you can't get into flow with something and get consumed in something if you don't know what you're trying to get to or where you're trying to go. A lot of times for me, that's just sitting down and just writing the end of whatever time I'm allocating. I really want it to be X. And then it has to have some kind of what I call real time feedback. I just came back from Dubai a few weeks ago and we got a chance to go to this three star Michelin restaurant. It's actually one of the only three star Indian Michelin restaurants in the world. And the chef comes out and almost every meal he comes out and he walks you through the ingredients that go into the meal and he puts it together at the table and then he takes a small taste of it to make sure it's right. And if it is, you're redoing. But for me, it's the same. When you're in that state of flow at the end of it, you gotta be able to go and taste it somehow, feel it somehow understand what's come out of it and know it was just right.
- [05:57]
B
That's a great list. So those four things, the right level of challenge, I like that because I agree. I think if something's too easy, we get bored pretty quickly. If it's too challenging, we get anxiety or we become overwhelmed. So the right level of challenge, it has to matter, which I think is important. We talk a lot on this program about tying things back to your purpose and your values. And so I think having some alignment there, a clear end or a clear target, and real time feedback, you know, another one of the things we talk about that really brings people joy. One of the key ingredients for joy is making progress on goals that are meaningful to you. And I think flow is one of the best ways of doing that. That's what you talk about. You sort of have to know where you're going, you have to know what the target is, and you need to be getting that feedback. So it's that sense of progress plus accomplishment at the end that I think is really magical when you can do both of those things. If you think about any performer, you know, take the example of a professional athlete. So much of what they do from the outside looks very attractive and very glamorous. And in a lot of ways it is. But in the reality of their day to day life, it can get pretty monotonous.
- [07:06]
A
Yeah.
- [07:06]
B
You think about it, you know, I work with a lot of baseball players. They play 162 games a year. If you do anything 162 times in a year, it can get pretty boring.
- [07:15]
A
Yeah.
- [07:16]
B
So you have to find this way. You got to keep showing up and you got to keep doing the work, which you won't be able to do unless it's what you just said. The right level of challenge, it has to be Important to you. You got to get some real time feedback. And so if you can't find a way to turn on flow or enter that state of flow, I think it's really unsustainable for a lot of people. So in this concept of flow and we talk about sustainability and we talk about doing it for the long term, I think that's really important. One of the things I think often gets confused or compared to flow is this concept of deep work. In your opinion, are those two things the same or are they different?
- [07:56]
A
In my view, they could overlap, but I think they're different. You can have deep work that's challenging, but challenging doesn't mean that it doesn't overwhelm you. It doesn't consume you in some ways. Sometimes when I think about deep work, I think about climbing uphill. But it's a long climb uphill. And at one point that long climb starts burning you out a little bit along the way. Does it matter to you? Maybe. But you have things that are monotonous to your day, that are critical to your job, that inherently might require deep work work. But having to do it doesn't mean you actually see the impact and you value it and see it matters. Deep work will have a target, right? So you can say, hey, at the end of this, this might be it, but it might overwhelm you more thinking about what that end goal looks like. And then it may or may not have real feedback to you. Think about our day to day Mayo is a big briefing document culture as an example. You might spend a lot of time building information that's important for people to see, but you might leave that not really getting feedback to it in a moment, sometimes not enjoying it, sure. And may see the importance of it, but you don't leave satisfied always from that event. Deep work can be important. It's part of the day. And I think in anyone's world there'll be points where you're in flow and there are points where you have tons of deep work and the points where they might overlap a little bit. But my gut is in the average person's day, there's probably a lot more deep work than there is times of flow.
- [09:35]
B
I think that you're spot on there, biju. And in reality, I think most of us as humans don't spend enough time in flow and would benefit from more. I think it's also true we probably don't spend enough time in deep work and would benefit from more of that. But if given the choice, I'd rather have More flow than deep work. I think deep work does require that sustained, high level of discipline. Whereas flow, when you get in it almost, it just becomes automatic. You lose track of time. And it's so easy to stay in that where the deep work, it takes discipline to really stay in it. There's times for both, though, I think. Well, let's talk about some of the upsides of the state of flow. What are some of the benefits that people can experience when they're in that state of flow?
- [10:17]
A
I think one is joy, because you're actually doing something that matters to you, that you're consumed in. Secondly, I actually think you're far more productive, right, because you're leveraging the right level of talent. You're doing something that really matters to you. You know, where you're trying to get to, I've done something great and I've consumed a part of my energy that's actually in my head, valuable for that energy to apply to.
- [10:47]
B
And I like that concept of energy because I think that flow really comes with a level of efficiency. You're more productive, so it's not requiring so much effort and intentional discipline like we talked about with deep work. And so you're actually getting more work done with less energy expended or less willpower expended. So I think it makes you a much more efficient machine, which for all of us in this world that we're living in, like, we need that.
- [11:15]
A
How about you, Chris? When you get into that state of flow, walk me through the impact of that on you as an individual.
- [11:21]
B
To me, it helps me unlock another level of creativity or a higher level of thinking that I couldn't get otherwise. I think we're constantly bombarded by noises and notifications and banners and alerts, and we're distractible, and it's a huge problem for us. But for me, when I can get into that state of flow, it sort of opens things up for me in a way that I hadn't seen them before. So I feel like I can see things a lot further. I can think further ahead and think, okay, wait a minute. Well, here's the first step. This would be the next step. And here's the impact of that. So I can think in higher orders, which all seem to be really helpful and rare. So it just changes you.
- [12:01]
A
My gut is that same dopamine rush when we hit the notification or the instant moment. I think you get a prolonged amount of it when you're in flow.
- [12:11]
B
Well, and you're exactly right. So there is increases in dopamine and norepinephrine, which part of that is our sort of craving neurotransmitter, but also some of it is our achieving neurotransmitter as well. So not only do we want it more, but then we enjoy it more when we have it. And there's also some research that shows that it actually quiets down our frontal lobe a little bit. The frontal lobe is the part of our brain that makes us very self conscious and aware. So we're constantly worried, oh, what are they going to think about me? Did what I said, did that sound stupid? Or, you know, we're second guessing ourselves all the time and that really holds us back, that gives us that fixed mindset. Yeah, really hard to have the growth mindset when your frontal lobe is dialed up. And so in the state of flow that gets dialed down a little bit and you kind of let all that go and you just drive forward and you're not worried about, I mean, you're unaware of what other people are doing or what they're thinking. And so I think that can be incredibly powerful.
- [13:06]
A
You know, when you're talking about that, I think of my opinion. One of the best Super Bowls ever. And when the Eagles won their first super bowl against the New England Patriots. And when you hear about Nick Foles after that game where a backup quarterback goes into the super bowl and genuinely outplays Tom Brady, who most people would argue is the goat, right. And you ask him, what were you thinking in that moment? He said two things in that moment. I felt a calling that this was my game to win. And two, all I saw was the field of my players. He had to be in the epitome of the state of flow of not thinking about what anyone else thinks. All the critics who said, hey, you're a second string quarterback coming to the biggest game in the NFL and you have no chance of winning it as a second stringer to going in and out playing Tom Brady and winning a very historic Super Bowl. That's the type of state of flow. He had three hours of bliss, right. A memory that he can never take back in a lot of ways. That's what ideally we want, irrespective of what we're doing. Right. Those few hours where we're so consumed, to your point, not caring about anyone else, but excited about that outcome that we're actually creating.
- [14:45]
B
Now let's move into the second section where we talk about this question of why do we struggle to do it? It's obviously good for us, but it almost Seems like we're not wired for it. So in your opinion, as a society, how often do you think the average person experiences float?
- [15:02]
A
The average person probably experiences flow less than 20% of their time. And my gut is that's best case. And part of that in reality, is because I think we've created an environment where we love meetings, at work, we love work. Sometimes for work's sake, we are in a world where there's not one, but multiple ways to notify you. I was laughing before I came over here because in one hour I got an email, I got multiple text messages, I get a phone call, and I get a teams message, and then I'm on a zoom call. Think about the ways you can get distracted and be in anything but flow. We've become a culture that is less intentional about our time and far more a distraction culture, because in the environment and the areas that we've set up, and we spend a lot less time even creating space in order to fundamentally get into flow and drive meaningful work when we need it. And so a lot of times I'll look at our teams and say, how much of your time have you actually allocated to this work versus all the other stuff that doesn't actually move the dial? And my gut is 80% of the stuff we do is all that other stuff.
- [16:25]
B
I think you're exactly right. And it's challenging because all of those things you mentioned are things that keep us out of the state of flow. And all of those things you mentioned are reasons we need to be experiencing flow more than ever. So we talked a lot about flow as sort of the mental capacity to be able to do this. I want to talk a little bit about our physical space.
- [16:49]
A
I think physical space is probably one of the most overlooked. Funny enough, I was in a meeting with a good friend of mine, and I walk into his office, and his entire desk, I kid you not, is covered with books, papers. And we were sitting there talking, and he's like, I can never get work done. And I was laughing. I'm like, there's not even space for you to do work on this desk. But for each of us, they're going to look a little bit different. I'm not saying that cluttered space might not be effective, but there needs to be space to actually do work. I also think we need physical spaces that we can stop the noise. For some people, that could be as simple as a desk and a pair of headphones and music to drown out the world. For some people, it has to be a space that has no monitor, their phone sitting somewhere else. No one can ping them for a period of time. And that's okay, but it's scary how many people don't think that's okay to do. And for some people, it's gonna look different. They need a Starbucks to go sit at because they actually like a little bit of the noise to keep them actually focused. For me, I need a space where I can reference things, but I can also shut things down. And I'm a big whiteboard guy. I still have a really big old school whiteboard in my office at home because I get my best thought out there. Because while I'm typing, people can still ping me, but on a whiteboard. I got a marker in the whiteboard.
- [18:27]
B
No pop up messages.
- [18:28]
A
No pop up messages. Nothing in the world. And as techy as I am, I would tell you that whiteboard is the place I find most flow because it's just me and my thoughts and the task at hand.
- [18:41]
B
Really what you're talking about is just being intentional about your physical surroundings. You know, we had another episode with Dennis Dolan where we talked about organizing your physical space. And my desk is relatively neat and I always have space to do my work, but there's still stuff sitting around. And I recognize that all of that stuff is like a physical to do list. Even if I don't think it consciously, subconsciously, I'm like, oh, I gotta file those papers, I need to put that away, I gotta wipe that off. And all those things are, you know, in the back of my mind constantly when I'm trying to focus on the work that I'm doing. And so it's just more noise that's more likely to prevent me from getting into that state of flow. So I think you're right. Everybody's going to figure out what is the right environment for them and figure out how quiet does it need to be, how neat does it need to be and just be intentional about it. We've talked about flow as something that has great benefits. We all need it and we need to do more of it. But are there downsides to being in a state of flow and is it possible for us to get too much of a good thing? I think it's unlikely that we would. But play a little devil's advocate here.
- [19:44]
A
I do think there's some downsides to it. I had told you we've become hyper productive, hyper creative during that state flow. The challenges in any of our days, there's a lot of things going on. Both of us have kids we have kids activities that are really important. Right. We have work activities that are important. You got to get cooking sometimes done at home, or the groceries that need to be done. When you're too consumed in state of flow, you might miss the things that are sometimes not the most exciting but are really important for you to sustain that work week and life in general. You got to find the balance of enough state of flow where I'm getting the big things, the meaningful things done, but I'm not missing the things that are also important and just need to be done in order to have life continue to work the way it should. Right.
- [20:37]
B
And I think for some people, if you don't pay close attention, there can be this fine line between the state of flow and addiction. You think about, like kids playing video games and they can't turn them off, you know, they're on till 3 o' clock in the morning. They might say they're in a state of flow. But if you go back to sort of your criteria earlier, you know, it has to matter. There has to be a clear end target. And so I do think there's a few extra elements to this. There's gotta be meaning behind it, purpose behind it. And you also can't neglect the other things that have to be done.
- [21:04]
A
You know, it's funny, I was talking to a friend about state of flow, and he says, oh, I get into it all the time on my Instagram, on my YouTube. And I said, the two hours you spend on YouTube or Instagram should not be considered state of flow. They're not material, they don't create value. And you're not really focusing.
- [21:21]
B
Yeah.
- [21:22]
A
And you're ending up actually ignoring the things that are inherently important that need to be done during that week.
- [21:27]
B
Great contrast. Thanks for calling that out. Give me your thoughts on multitasking. I know that's something that we all think that we need to be doing in order to keep up. Is that a good approach or bad approach?
- [21:38]
A
So there are moments on the king of multitasking, but I would tell you it's the polar opposite of actually being in a state of flow. And usually if I'm multitasking is because I'm working on other things that I haven't inherently allocated the appropriate amount of time for, or I'm part of something that I shouldn't have been part of in the first place. It's not meaningful. It doesn't require my attention or my brain power or other activities. And sometimes I think as a culture, we have a hard time letting go of things. And I'm no different to that. There are things I look at. Sometimes I'm like, why in the world was I part of that meeting? Well, I invited myself to that meeting. Right. And so I think multitasking inherently is not real productivity, because your brain is compartmentalizing steps, whether we call them separate steps while you're trying to do them. But you're not doing two things ever at once. Right. You might be in the state of a space where you think you're doing two things at once, but you're not doing any of them well or effectively.
- [22:47]
B
Yeah. And the digital devices don't give us the feedback of saying, hey, you're not paying attention. Look here, eyes here, look here. You know, like, other humans are good at doing. And so I think that that is really causing us to struggle. Is this something that you feel like people can get better at? Because there is this feeling that flow, like, just kind of happens, that it's just automatic, and if you have it, you're lucky, and if you don't, tough luck. But do you think this is something that we can actually act on and encourage and increase in our lives?
- [23:29]
A
Can we get better at it? No question about it. If I go back to what I said, Flo, how to create the environment or. Right. Challenge. It has to matter to you. There's a clear target, and you have to have some kind of feedback. None of that is inherently just some natural thing that comes just by being born. Right. It's about creating enough intentionality into the way you create your week around it, the work that you put together, applying yourself to the right things at the right times and being also aware of yourself along the way. Right. A morning person shouldn't think they can do state of flow at midnight. That would be the worst place for me. Right. At like, 10 o', clock, my brain is starting to shut off. So you asking me at midnight to work, that's just not gonna happen. There's no state of flow occurring in that moment. The same is true for. If there's an environment that fits people better, they have to be intentional about it. There's a lot of things we can do in order to improve our state of flow. But it starts with us making the decision of do we want to do it and do we want to be intentional about it? And then do we want to put the work into actually applying that intentionality to exercise that muscle in a way that it becomes more and more of what we do week in and week out.
- [24:54]
B
I'll be honest. I'VE always thought of flow as it's somewhat this sort of almost magical or mystical element to it.
- [25:01]
A
It.
- [25:01]
B
But you're right, you broke it down into these four different components earlier. And when I look at those four components individually, there's nothing magical or mystical about any of those things. Like, we see that sort of stuff all around us every day. We just don't do a good job of putting all four elements together in one activity. Next question for you. How can I tell if this is something I need to work on? Like, what is an appropriate expectation of flow in my life?
- [25:29]
A
I think you're the easiest judge of that. Right. I have a habit, good or bad. I journal at the end of every week and I ask myself a bunch of questions. But at the core of my questions, a few things are, did I feel like I accomplished something? Two, do I feel ultimately like I used the best of me in those moments this week? And if I can't answer those well, and if I don't feel like I really did, I probably wasn't in a good place of flow. And I think for all of us, we need to be the judges of how effective we've been at flow and if we need to have more of it. Because if I leave the end of my week and I look at it and say the things that were important I actually didn't get done, and the things that were really important and should have taken my focus didn't, I can easily tell myself I need to work on it and adjust my time and intentionality to get really focused on flow. How do you think about it as you're thinking about flow in your day to day?
- [26:36]
B
I kind of like the follow up question of how difficult was it I have these days where I get to the end of the day, I got a lot of work done, but I am spent just exhausted. And I know that's because it was a day of discipline and hard work and willpower over and over and over and I was slogging it out every step. There are other days though, when you get everything done and you think, that was fantastic. Like, I really, we crushed that today. We got it done and you feel great and you're almost energized. You got more work done and you have more energy at the end of it. And so I look for those opportunities. That feeling is so good and it is a positive feedback loop too, because it just makes you want to do it more. And so when I have those days where I think, man, that that day was just a slog all day was really difficult. And I kind of back up and say, all right, well, why? Like, what happened? Was it too challenging? Not challenging enough? Was I working on things that don't really matter? You know? So I kind of go through those things that you talk about and try to figure it out and see, all right, can I steer them towards that? So that's really helpful for me. It's like, did I get the work done and then how did I feel afterwards Is incredibly helpful because my body lets me know or my mind lets me know. Like, yeah, that was great. Or no, that was a real challenge.
- [27:48]
A
Hey, Chris, you know what's interesting for me is I think we've also become a little bit of a victim culture. And what I mean by that is it's someone else's issue that I haven't gotten the things that I needed accomplished, done. But if I really look at our lives, it's rare that people force things on you. It's typical for us to accept the things that are put in front of us, but they're not forced on us. And when I think about intentionality, too, part of that is the mental pivot, I would say, in our own heads of getting to the point that we can think through and be comfortable that our week, our life, the moments that occur in it, good or bad, the majority of them are controlled by us and owned by us. Because until you get to that point, you can plan and try to orchestrate, but unless you believe you control most of your day, most of your week, your interactions, you can't get into a state of flow because your time is someone else's, your mind is someone else's, your days and activities are someone else's.
- [29:00]
B
Yeah. And I think especially even if you can't control the actual circumstance or the event, you can absolutely control how you respond to it. And that's where all your power lies. I agree. And until you have that own autonomy and you take that for yourself, you don't let people steal that from you. If there was a remote control that controlled you like a robot, you wouldn't just hand that over to somebody else. Say, here you take control. But we do that with our minds all the time. So that's something I think we have to take back. You're exactly right. And I think that will help us. So let's put all this together, if we can, and try to give it sort of an organized step by step approach that we could lay out for the audience of some different things they can think through to try to increase the amount of flow they have in their life.
- [29:44]
A
I think that the first is probably going to be the hardest, which is audit your time. Where am I spending my effort, my resources, my brain capacity, my energy on? And I got to take a real look at it, because at first glance, when you audit your time, you can either be your own worst critic or your own excuse maker. And what I mean by that is sometimes you look at it and say, well, I had to do that. Well, the question you should ask yourself, did you really have to do it and did it really require that amount of time, or did you do it because you were really not in a state of flow at that first audit? And your next audit and the next ones after that are never going to look great. But as long as we audit and we're getting better over time, that's not a bad thing, right? And then I think you gotta figure out what your triggers are in your work, right? You gotta reflect on what you're doing, what time of day it is, where it is, the environment that you're in, and figure out what works for you. And then if you said, hey, for this week, I've audited my time, I gotta make time for these three things. I also then got to create the environment and the time on my calendar to be intentional about doing that and spending time focusing on that. And then to that point, I got to protect my time. And what I mean by that is not just the time I'm going to work on it, but for some people, if it's in the middle of the day especially, you might need a ritual to get out of all the chaos that you've been part of for the day, the multiple notifications and things that have occurred. And you're going to have to create a little bit of a window to take your mind out of it in order to get in to that state of flow. And that could be, hey, I need 90 minutes on something that I need to spend time on that I think is going to require my brain. It's going to be important to me. I know what I want to get out of it, and I can test it at the end of it. I may need 30 minutes before to get my mind out of all the other chaos to get into that. Right? And that's why I love being a morning person. I get up really early in the morning and I like it because I can control not picking up my phone. I can control not getting the notifications. Usually people are still sleeping when I'm thinking through some of my stuff. Which by nature gives me a head start to try to get into the flow around something. But that might not work for everyone. Right. Some people are not morning people. I have plenty of friends that are not morning people. I will never ask them to get into state of flow in the mornings. But you just gotta figure out what your triggers are, protect that space and protect that time in a way that's meaningful and then create that ritual. And then I would tell you, don't be your worst critic, but be your best coach. What I mean by that is I would spend time reflecting on the week, asking the hard questions of myself, knowing the only person you're answering to is yourself. And then I would spend time looking at my next week and figuring out what I can tweak and adjust. And I use the word tweak because some people like to take big gains. But big gains usually mean big disappointments in my view. Right.
- [33:19]
B
Yes.
- [33:20]
A
You rather make those 1% minor tweaks and continue to build that muscle and see that build week over week versus saying, I'm gonna go from zero to 50 overnight because I guarantee the following week you're gonna go back to zero.
- [33:38]
B
Yes.
- [33:38]
A
Because you've been so burned out by trying to find force yourself down that path.
- [33:42]
B
That's a great list. In some of this, it seems so obvious and it's really easy to look at somebody else's life and point all these things out. But I think it's often challenging for us to do it in our own life. So one other piece of advice I would throw in there is if you're struggling to figure out what to do, think about what you would tell somebody else in your shoes. You know, we're really good at giving other people advice and being their best coach. Horrible at being our own best coaches.
- [34:11]
A
Yeah. And actually, if you want to go wild with it a little bit, if you have a hard time being real with yourself, don't get the people that are going to be nice to you and not real with you either, but get the opposite. The people are there going to give you that real feedback for no other reason than to make you better and stronger.
- [34:30]
B
So I've got one last question for you. Earlier you mentioned gratitude and being grateful towards other people in your mind. What role does gratitude play in the process of flowing?
- [34:41]
A
I think it's incredibly important, actually. If your mind's constantly in a place of anything but gratitude, you by nature are going down a path of probably burning out a little bit, seeing things from a negative perspective, unable to really focus on the things that are important. I brought up that, like, victim mentality mindset of I'm being forced down a path that I don't control. You're probably down in that place. A lot of times when you force yourself to be grateful, it gets you out of your own head for a moment. It helps you to focus on someone else and helps you to see the good things that are inherently happening, to balance maybe some of the tough moments. We work for a large hospital, so there's tough moments happening all day long. I feel like the people that pull through you as a physician, you've probably seen the patients that are do better. Their mental mindset is not consumed just on the negative moment at hand, but on all the other little good things, maybe small moments, but a lot of small positive things that are actually occurring that change their perspective. And so gratitude's really important for us to not just get into a state of flow, but I actually think just to actually think about life generally in the right way for us to do the right things and understand what actually matters and actually to use our brain power effectively. And I'll be the first to say there are days that probably anything but gratuitous, but sometimes when I catch those moments, the best thing I can actually do is try to intentionally find the things I should be really thankful for. And that level sets you really quick.
- [36:29]
B
I've always said that I think that our thoughts drive our feelings, our feelings drive our actions, and our actions shape our identities. And so really what you think ultimately downstream becomes who you are. And I think that if you're a person who is grateful and you can appreciate that, you can let go of that negativity, then you're right. That feeling then shapes your thoughts, which then drives the action. And flow is one of those actions. So this has been a great discussion, taking some good notes. I'm going to recap those real quick. So you started out by defining flow for us. It's a moment where you're all consumed in an activity and you really lose track of time. You described it as having four essential elements. Number one, the right level of challenge. So not too hard, not too easy. Number two, it has to matter and be meaningful to you. Number three, you need a clear end goal or a target. And number four, you need real time feedback along the way. And as you were saying that towards the end, I realized if you think about those four elements, none of those are magical or mystical. And so you can really break this down into a common sense approach. We talked about how it's different from deep work. We talked about the benefits of flow being more joy. Increased productivity makes you more grateful, more engaged with other people, you're more efficient, you're less exhausted, you become more creative and you can unlock new levels of thinking. We also talked about in order to enter a state of flow, you really kind of have to take control or ownership of your life and try to move out of the victim mentality the best you can and realize maybe you can't control everything, but you can at least control how you respond, which will improve your chances of entering flow. And then you gave us sort of an eight step plan. Number one, audit your time. Number two, identify your triggers. Number three, create the environment. Number four, find the time. Number five, build the routine. Number six, don't be your biggest critic. Number seven, be your best coach. And number eight, start small, tweak things, make small little adjustments as time goes on. All right, well now I'm going to give the challenger or a call to action here. I'd like for you audience to think of one thing that you have to do that's coming up in your future. It can be tomorrow, next week, next month, whatever one thing that has to be done. And then ask yourself, is there a way you can incorporate those four components to flow to it? So can you do it the right level of challenge? Can you make it matter? Does it have a clear end target? Can you get real time feedback if you can do those things and see if you can use that to enter a state of flow. If you look at that and you can't do those things well, then think about deep work. That's your backup plan will be deep work. So that's the challenge to the audience. And then if that one doesn't work, think about another activity and keep going until you hit on one that meets all of those criteria. Bijou, thank you so much for joining us and covering this session today.
- [39:13]
A
Hey, thanks Chris. It was fun actually to join the podcast.
- [39:19]
B
If you like this episode, please share it with a friend and leave us a review on your podcast app. It really helps others find the show. Got feedback, a question or a topic idea? Email us at optimizeayo. Edu or leave us a voicemail at 507-538-6272. We might even feature your voice on the show. For more human optimization episodes and resources, check us out online at ce mayo.edu. optimize. Remember long term well being starts with the habits you build today live. Intentionally perform exceptionally. I'm Dr. Christopher Camp. Thanks for listening.