← Mayo Clinic On Human Optimization
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- [00:02]
A
Nobody that's really good at anything started out that way. Like everybody that is a world class performer will tell you, it takes lots of hard work and years.
- [00:17]
B
This is Mayo Clinic on Human Optimization, a podcast where we break down the science of human potential to help you understand how purpose driven effort leads to high level performance and long term well being. I'm Dr. Chris for Camp, Director of High performance for the Minnesota Twins and a sports medicine surgeon with Mayo Clinic. Imagine you get yourself a sweet new sports car, Lambo, whatever. Hop in for your first drive, only to realize you have no idea how to drive a stick shift. So you drive around town in first gear, going super slow, making tons of noise, stalling out at every stop sign. You finally make it home, hop out and proclaim, well, this car is a piece of junk. Sounds silly, but that's kind of the challenge we face with talent development where the ceiling of your potential or your team's potential isn't dictated by innate ability, but your capacity to unlock it. So to help us learn how to shift out of first gear in this episode, we're joined by Adam Thompson. He's the vice chair of administration for the Mayo Clinic Comprehensive Cancer center in Florida. Adam. And together we're going to explore the science of strategy and talent development. We've got three big questions for Adam and in the first section, our big question is what is talent and what are we talking about with talent development? The second big question, why do people and teams fail to develop talent well? And then in the last section, we'll start to talk about some solutions when we ask what can we do to maximally develop our own talent and as well as that of everyone on the team. Adam, welcome to the program. Really appreciate you joining us today for this discussion.
- [02:08]
A
Thanks. So good to be here. Really appreciate the invitation.
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B
Well, I want to start by taking this concept of talent and talent development and really putting some teeth into it so we understand what we're talking about. How do you define the word talent in a practical way?
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A
Let's maybe begin with what talent is not, or at least not how we're going to talk about it today. It's not a movie star or an on air personality. Sometimes people refer to the talent in a pejorative way and that's not how we're going to talk about it. Instead, it's the competencies, the skills, the attributes, maybe the behaviors that help somebody perform at their highest potential. So I think a good analogy is a basketball team where you've got different players who bring different skills, a Point guard needs to be able to dribble and pass in order to assist their teammates. And a forward's got to be a good shooter because you're counting on that person to score. Centers rebound, each of them bringing a unique talent or skill that makes the team better. So that's how we're going to talk about it today.
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B
And we're not talking about just developing talent of others, but we're also talking about developing talent within ourselves, which is a process. So I want to get your thoughts on what exactly does that mean, the process of developing talent?
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A
I think in technical roles, it requires repetition. You can probably relate to that as a surgeon. The more you do things, the better you get. And I'm not a baker, but I imagine by the time I've hit my 200th pie, I wouldn't need the recipe anymore. And that's the reason that patients seek out surgeons who've performed a lot of the same procedures, because with repetition comes competency. I think as it relates to leadership development, it's about our ability to get out of people their best over an extended period of time. And so that might look like coaching them in different ways, applying different strategies or tactics to really try to pull out of them their very best.
- [04:15]
B
I do think for these more technical things, it's really about deliberate practice and doing it over and over and over again. I think deliberate practice is important. That concept of being deliberate implies some thought that goes into it and some intentionality. And that is much more straightforward. If we're talking about improving a technical skill, surgical skills, golf swing, free throw, whatever, where it gets more challenging is when we're talking about it a little bit more abstract, particularly in the role of leadership, is, you know, maximizing potential in others. Because that's usually not just a technical skill that we're trying. These are different abilities that we're trying to bring out in others. Have you found that it's difficult for people to understand it or conceptualize it that way because it feels a little bit more abstract?
- [05:04]
A
I think it can be, because I think we hop over. What are those key competencies, those skills, those attributes, the knowledge maybe that help somebody really be proficient in their job. And if you just jump over those things, well, then you can't get any better at it. So I think it starts with that honest assessment, identifying the things that are really required for somebody to be high performing in whatever role that they're in, and then, as you said, practicing those things in a very methodical and deliberate way, just like you would if you were, you know, on an athletic team,
- [05:42]
B
can we talk about how this is the same or different at the personal level versus the team level?
- [05:48]
A
I think it's more the same. You know, what's different is on a team, you've got multiple people with talents, and oftentimes they have different types of talents. And so you've got to figure out how to integrate those things to get the output or the deliverable that you want from the team. But I think the process of developing those things is largely the same. It involves a plan that's specific and deliberate and then exercising in a way that's focused and targeted, making adjustments, monitoring, you know, as you. As you go. And that's true of an individual, but it's. It's also true of the output of a team.
- [06:25]
B
So the formula is fairly similar. And I know it's not just a pure formula. It's not that simple. But the general steps behind it, thought behind it, are really kind of the same. So I think even when we're talking about ourselves and it's just us and we're trying to get better, it's really a leadership skill that you're doing. You're trying to lead yourself, trying to improve yourself, trying to develop your own talent. And then once you figure that out, I think that makes it a little bit easier to apply to others and to groups. Although it's not always a straight copy and paste.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah, I think that's really well said. Yeah.
- [06:57]
B
Okay, so how has the importance of talent development changed in our world? Because we're living in a very fast pace, rapidly evolving world today. So how has that influenced the way we develop talent and maybe the importance of talent development?
- [07:15]
A
I think technology has really leveled the playing field. I mean, it's the great equalizer, because it's probably never been easier in all of human history to get better at something than it is today. You know, whether you're replacing your kitchen sink or you're, you know, making Thanksgiving dinner, if you're motivated and you apply yourself and you use the right tools, you can learn something really quickly. And that's true in the workplace as well. And I think all of us should feel some sense of urgency that we've got to keep up, because everybody has those tools. You know, YouTube and ChatGPT have really sort of democratized learning for everyone. And that is an incredible gift, but also, I think, a great responsibility of leaders to make sure that we're leveraging those for the benefits of our team members.
- [08:09]
B
I think historically, when that information was not democratized, and it was difficult to obtain. If you're thinking about hiring, you probably need to hire somebody who already has the talent, who already has the skill set. But now we live in a world where it can be developed, it should be developed. And when you have the opportunity to develop, you can have some say in it and how you control it. So I would think in today's world, you're almost looking for people not necessarily who are talented, but who you think have the ability to become talented, who that you feel like you can develop
- [08:45]
A
over time, and who have the motivation, you know, who lean in and they really want to get better and they're willing to commit the energy and the time and the focus on that.
- [08:54]
B
And I think that that's the same for the people that you're hiring and also how we should be approaching our own lives and for ourselves. So speaking of some of those key features you want to look for in another person, what are those characteristics that need to be in place in order for people to maximize talent development?
- [09:11]
A
Yeah, it relates to something that we were talking about just a second ago. And I think the first thing is you want somebody who's got a reasonably good self assessment or at least self awareness. And if they don't, then they're willing to get a coach or a mentor that can be honest with them about their shortcomings, point out some gaps. I really enjoy the episode that you did with Dr. Rehall where he talked about mentorship and you two unpacked that together. I learned a lot in that episode, and it made me think of this wonderful quote that I heard from Emily Dickinson years ago as she was writing to a mentor asking for advice. And she said, the sailor cannot see the north, but knows the needle can. And I've often thought, like, it's so important for me. It has been so important for me to have people in my life that serve as this needle, you know, pointing me to north when I don't see it, or reminding me of the things that matter the most. So I think, you know, having a mentor is critically important and, you know, being able to assess your current state, and then once you know where those gaps are, then having the courage to confront those. And it takes courage and confidence to work on skills that are raw and unrefined. And then we've talked about practicing in a very deliberate or specific way. And for a leader, that might include things like communicating clearly or developing a coherent strategy and tactics, or giving direct feedback, having a crucial conversation with someone, these are things that don't come naturally. And the more we do them, the better we get. But they really do require deliberate practice. And then I'd say lastly, you want to make sure that that person is planted in an environment where they can really grow. I have learned over my career way more from people and the interactions that I've had than I've learned from projects that I've worked on. Winston Churchill said that we shape our houses, and thereafter they shape us. And so your parents were really right. You should pick your friends very carefully, because the people that you surround yourself with, whether it's your friends or whether it's your co workers or a boss or your team members even, they're gonna determine your trajectory. You're gonna rise or fall to the level of the people around you. And I think that that's just so critical.
- [11:53]
B
Yeah, I've heard it said that we are the average of the five people we spend the most time with, which I think is spot on.
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A
No question.
- [11:59]
B
It's interesting how you laid that out and you almost did it in sort of a stepwise approach. I think that you kind of. You need to do that in order, in sequence. And what I pulled out of there was, you know, you mentioned early on, you gotta have a be self reflective, have a good self assessment. You need to have mentors or other people who can fill those blind spots. And then you need to have the courage to fill in your gaps and have deliberate practice and a plan and then that environment to grow. I'll tell you, personally, for me, I look at this list and there are times when I have made mistakes on all five of those elements and where I've had the hardest lessons and the biggest mistakes are probably when I tried to skip the first two steps. And you just jump right into action. I want to start doing things, I want to start making changes, filling gaps, putting the plan together, et cetera, et cetera, without doing that honest assessment first.
- [12:51]
A
Yeah. You mentioned golf earlier, and it reminds me of like the weekend hack who just goes to the driving range, pulls out the driver and just slams balls for hours. That person's not improving their golf game. They might feel that way. So I think you're exactly right.
- [13:08]
B
I think this is a huge mistake for hard chargers too. People who are really motivated towards action, which is great, but if the action is not well informed, it becomes very inefficient and it's a waste of time, effort, energy, and money oftentimes to be doing things that aren't aligned with the mission and where you want to go. So really, you got to stop, step back, figure out what the mission is first, then. Then take action, Which I think is a real challenge for. For some people. So as we talk about getting the most out of ourselves and developing our talent, controversial question. Are we better to lean into our own strengths and focus on those or work to shore up our weaknesses?
- [13:53]
A
Yeah, I think. Yes. Okay. I think it's an and question and not an or question. And the reason I say that is because our strengths are the things that set us apart. It's what differentiates us from other high performers, and we are well served to double down on those things that we're really good at. But a weakness can be a derailer. And in fact, a weakness in the wrong area can be catastrophic. I mean, it can completely negate the strength and undermine our performance. I. I am not a bluegrass fan, but I'm mesmerized by Billy strings, who is like the, you know, world's best bluegrass guitarist, because that guy's fingers move up and down the neck of the guitar like nothing I've ever seen before. And I find myself just captivated by watching him. Clearly, that's a strength. I mean, normal people's fingers don't move like his do on the guitar. And yet if he didn't have rhythm and timing, you know, these other things that might not be what he's really good at, but are really important to being a good guitarist, then he wouldn't be the incredible performer that he is. And so I think our strengths unquestionably amplify our performance. But we've got to be really thoughtful about those weaknesses, aware of those, confront those, and then work to, you know, to eliminate those as best we can.
- [15:21]
B
In my world, I spend time working with professional athletes, and oftentimes we see these professional athletes that are unbelievably skilled physically. Just unbelievable. The things that they can do that they've earned through hard work and perseverance and everything else. But then oftentimes they may they have that physical ability, but they make a poor decision. You know, their decision making capacity is not ideal. And then that can often negate or wipe out some of that physical talent. And sometimes we see it the opposite. We see other folks that maybe the physical talent or athleticism is not quite there, but they make good decisions. They execute it intentionally, you know, so they're making the most of what they. What they have. And I think that you really can see that either work for you or against you, depending on which way it goes. So what are some of the benefits of developing talent, and maybe we'll say for the individual and then secondly for the team. Why should we be focused on this?
- [16:18]
A
I mean, it's how we reach our highest potential as human beings and as a team. We need information, we need motivation, we need tools, we need habits, we need the right environment, like we talked about, in order to really maximize our potential.
- [16:42]
B
Let's jump to the second section and we'll talk about why this is challenging and some of the common mistakes we make. So first I want to ask, though, how are we doing at this? Like, you know, what. What percentage of the population you think has a plan for developing their own talent? An intentional plan to do it?
- [16:57]
A
Yeah, I think most people have a general idea of what they're good at and what they're not good at. I think very few people practice or exercise in a really deliberate way to get better. And it starts because I think, like we talked about a second ago, that most people just don't slow down to understand what really are those competencies that are most important for my team or my individual performance?
- [17:22]
B
You know, I think we often tend to have that plan for developing our talent, but often can be unidimensional. So maybe just in our area of expertise. I did a poll of orthopedic surgeons recently. My comrades, my co workers, and all of them have plans to get better at orthopedic surgery. Then ask them how many have a plan to improve their physical health? 44%. Then ask how many of them had a plan to improve their cognition or sort of the mental game? 19%. So almost everybody has a plan to develop talent within their primary domain, but maybe not in some of these other areas. And I think some of these. We'll talk about how all of these different domains really can contribute to making you better all around, which is then going to make you better in that one area that you really care about. So what are some common mistakes that you see people make when it comes to improving themselves or trying to improve others?
- [18:22]
A
There are some obvious things we talked about. Overlooking weaknesses or not being in a. In a good environment. But I think one of the biggest barriers is just a lack of focus. There's a British author named Greg McCown, and he wrote a terrific book several years back called Essentialism. And he essentially makes the case that we don't achieve our full potential not because of a lack of effort or time, but just because of a lack of focus that we find ourselves spread so thinly with so many commitments and obligations that we just can't pay attention and give energy to the things that matter the most. And he uses in his book what I think is a really effective illustration where he draws a circle and he writes the word energy in the middle of the circle. And then he's got dozens of little baby arrows protruding from that circle, representing all of the energy that's being consumed and the progress that's being made in those arrows. And of course, it's really small because the energy is being shared by a lot of arrows. And then he contrasts that with this other illustration that just has a circle and energy in one arrow. You know, that's much, much longer. The point is sort of intuitive, and that is the more focused we are, then the more that thing gets our energy, our best effort. And I think when we fill our days with lots of things, then we shouldn't be surprised at the end of the day when there's not time left to do something that really matters to us, like improve a certain skill or competency.
- [20:00]
B
It's funny to me, it's one of these unique paradoxes where so many of us think, I don't have time to work on this, in which case I would say it actually means you don't have time not to because not doing it is making you so inefficient and it is costing you so much in terms of wasted time, effort and energy, and that it's actually, you're going to get that investment back to you multiple, many times over if you actually focus and harness it and make the forward progress that you need to do. So if I'm thinking about this and I'm wondering, okay, maybe is this something I need to work on? I'm curious, what are some signs that would indicate that I, or maybe my team might have a talent deficiency that we need to be trying to improve?
- [20:49]
A
I think most obvious indicator is the score. You know, like, what metric is going to tell you that in fact, you personally or your team is performing at a high level? Or maybe it's a light on the dashboard of your life that's flashing red and you're ignoring or that pesky check engine light that's been yellow that you stopped paying attention to 100,000 miles ago. That could be coming from a boss or a colleague or a team member. It's almost like an early warning sign that there might be a deficiency, there might be a gap in the way that you're leading or the way that you're performing on your team. And so if you're not constantly checking your scorecard personally, professionally, then I think you're at risk there. It's also a reason why those sort of annoying, you know, annual reviews for our team members are so important.
- [21:49]
B
Yes.
- [21:49]
A
You know, the feedback shouldn't just come annually and it should be timely and it should be specific. But I think it's so important that we're, we're committed to consistently giving that to our team members in order to get the best out of them.
- [22:04]
B
We need to do the preventative maintenance on the engine of life before that check engine light comes on, which we're not very good at. Being proactive. We tend to be much more reactive in that. So how about that's talking a little bit about maybe we have a talent deficiency. I'm wondering, are there other signs on the opposite end of the spectrum that say maybe I'm capped out in this area and I'm probably not going to get any better. So continuing to pursue this is not worth my time, effort and energy. Like for instance, you know, I'm not a runner. I'm reasonably fit, but not a runner, not a distance runner. Would it be appropriate for me to set a goal for a sub 2 hour marathon? Probably not. Right. My talent's going to cap out way before I get that. So how can I tell when I've sort of reached my maximum? This is too much. Let's focus somewhere else.
- [22:59]
A
There probably are certain circumstances where you just ought to be very frank with yourself about your potential. And that starts maybe with a realistic or honest assessment. But I think in most areas of our life we can get better at just about everything that we put our minds to. And there was a documentary probably now, 15 years ago that just hit me like a ton of bricks. And it's called Jiro Dreams of Sushi. And it highlighted this, this 85 year old Japanese sushi chef who was literally chasing sushi, making perfection. He was trying to make the best bite of food that he possibly could and he was maniacal about it. He's still alive. He's 100 years old. I don't know if he's still working. But his goal was for his customers to have an unforgettable experience and for them literally the rest of their lives to say, I've never eaten anything like that before. And I thought, if this guy could be so passionate about combining rice and fish to create that kind of experience for his customers, why shouldn't I be so passionate about what I do every day when the stakes are so much higher? You know, we work at Mayo Clinic and we have the privilege of helping to develop cures and transform the way care is delivered and to give patients hope and healing. I mean, that feels like it's got a lot more gravity than making sushi. And I think every time I begin to feel like I've kind of got it, I'm just humbled by Jiro and this guy that for 80 years was just constantly, every day trying to perfect his craft, never being satisfied with where he was. It's such a good example for me.
- [24:57]
B
That's great. And I think that it's not, not necessarily looking at the talent and thinking, all right, I've done enough here to accomplish this goal, or I've sort of maxed out. If you get to that point, you might need to be looking at the goal and saying, wait a minute, is this the right goal? Is it enough? Is it good enough? Is it appropriately framed? Maybe that's where the, where the problem lies. So one of the things I think can often hold us back from this ability or desire to improve our talent is fear of failure or looking like we're going to be exposed or found out or looking bad in front of other people. How does that impact our talent development process?
- [25:39]
A
It can be a hindrance. Nobody that's really good at anything started out that way. Everybody that is a world class performer will tell you it takes lots of hard work and years. And in the beginning it's uncomfortable to practice something that you're not good at. A skill that's raw or undeveloped. And so it takes confidence and it takes courage. And I think that's another example of where having a coach or a mentor that acts as a cheerleader that reminds us that we're a work in progress is so powerful and can really help bring out the best of us. I mean, we don't become the best we can be without a lot of help from a lot of people.
- [26:26]
B
And when we think about developing talent, you know, we're afraid we're going to fail. We have to push ourselves. It's meant to be hard, it's going to be challenging. How do you relate that process to well, being? So how do I keep developing talent, push myself, do the challenge, but also remain well during the process?
- [26:45]
A
Yeah, it's a balancing act. You know, muscles need to be stressed in order to grow. And I think the same is true for just about any competency. You know, the more friction and hardship that we experience, the more we will stretch and grow. But the reality is too much of that, as you've said, becomes unhealthy and it's then not sustainable. And so, you know, easy to say, hard to do. And one of the things that you're probably often reminded of with the athletes that you're interacting with is just how important it is that they're taking care of their mind and their body, that they're not missing a workout, that they're hitting the treatment room when they need to, that if they've got a minor ache, they're attending to that thing before it becomes a major injury that might prevent them from performing at their highest level. People think of rest sometimes as if it's a vice, but in reality rest is as indispensable to our brain as vitamin D is to our bones. And there's this sort of interesting paradox that you can't accomplish anything that's really meaningful without sufficient rest. And so I think the two are so important. And it's probably also the reason why rest is as old as civilization itself. Like it's baked into nearly every faith tradition. Whether that's a concept of Sabbath and it's framed as obedience, or whether it's framed as balance and rhythms or effortlessness or stillness even. I think rest is so crucial to performing at our highest level. So could not agree more that our well being and our health is really important to optimal performance.
- [28:41]
B
And I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I don't think doing hard things means that you have to suffer and your wellbeing goes down. I think in fact it's quite the opposite, that if you do it right, the two are synergistic and doing hard things can actually improve your well being. Some of the keys to achieving that though are if you can tie that hard or difficult thing that you're doing, if you can connect it to your purpose, then you take some joy in that. If you can measure your progress along the way, you celebrate the small wins rather than waiting for the payoff at the end. I think enjoying the process is one, and then I think also connecting with others, not necessarily doing it alone, but get some like minded people together and talk about it, discuss it and learn from them. It makes you more efficient. But also just that genuine social connection I think can really help. So I think there's a lot of ways that we can take those challenging aspects of it and use them to our advantage and actually improve our well being in doing this as well.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah, it's really well said.
- [29:53]
B
Now let's talk about how we lift the weights and how we develop our talent. We'll jump into this third section. So as we start, you know, you're somebody who's been doing this for yourself for a long time. And then also as a leader, helping others do it. Have you seen that really anybody can get better at this and can continue to develop their talent?
- [30:16]
A
Absolutely. In fact, not, you know, only can we, but I think we must develop our talent. We have this one shot at life, you know, we don't get a do over, and why wouldn't we want to live it, you know, to, you know, the absolute fullest? It reminds me of one of my favorite poems by Longfellow. It's called A Psalm of Life, and there's this phrase in there. He says, not enjoyment and not sorrow is our destined indoor way, but to act that each tomorrow finds us farther than today. And I don't think there's a better yardstick for our improvement than better than yesterday. You, you know, like, I think it's wrong to compare ourselves to others. I think that that can be useful at times, but mostly isn't a good idea. But it's always a good thing to make sure that how you're showing up today for your team, you know, and personally is just a little bit better than you yesterday.
- [31:21]
B
That's great. I always say you can look to others for inspiration in making your own definition of success, but it's got to be your definition.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah, I like that.
- [31:30]
B
So pull from others, but don't just adopt their definition and don't just compare, because in reality, you probably don't actually understand their definition. You don't see the behind the scenes. You don't know what's going on, and you're only seeing the highlight reel. And so use it for inspiration. But ultimately you got to. You got to form your own definition of success. All right, what about leaders? And this might be controversial, but I think not all leaders develop talent on their team, at least not all the ones I've seen. But I'm wondering, are all leaders capable of doing it?
- [32:03]
A
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. It might be that a leader can't develop a talent, but a leader can figure out how to develop the talent. And so sometimes that means recruiting help from outside the team. You know, I think the best leaders that I've worked with over, you know, three decades have been really effective at tailoring their approaches, their tactics to get the most out of that individual. And it really isn't one size fits all. There are other times where that leader is an expert in that area and proficient, you know, and can Tutor one on one. But I think even more often than not, you know, the role of the leader is to, you know, leverage the organization more broadly to help, you know, a team member address a weakness or, you know, amplify a strength.
- [32:53]
B
And so we've been talking about talent in somewhat specific terms, but I'd really like to add additional specificity to it to figure out what exactly is it I'm supposed to be working on. So how can I decide which talents I need to be cultivating in myself?
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, it's like step number one in the process. And it's the honest sort of initial assessment where my head went as I was thinking about this question is the NFL draft is right around the corner and every prospect for the NFL draft has a profile. And that profile is this synthesis of their measurable traits. How fast they run or how high they jump or how many pounds they lift, their performance, and then also their potential. And probably the player doesn't like everything that's on the profile. Their agent probably doesn't because it's the difference between millions of dollars depending on their draft order. But the reality is that profile is incredibly valuable to the player. It gives them this converged view of how the world thinks they're performing and what their potential is. And I think all of us need a profile. We don't have those. We should develop them because that could be such a useful tool for you to see again how the world views your strengths, your opportunities and what your potential is. And with that, then that's a really good starting point for a plan for deliberate exercise and improvement. So in a business role like I have, that might mean certain aspects of financial acumen, or it might mean strategy development, or it might mean process design or process improvement tools. In a clinical role, I imagine it would be the things that are going to pop up on an annual competency check, the things that you need to do really well to demonstrate to your colleagues that you can care for patients in the best way.
- [35:19]
B
And to our audience, if you don't know where to start, how to create your profile. One of the things that we've done with this, our human optimization effort here is we've sort of broken everything down into 10 different domains. Some are more physical, some are more cognitive, some are more relational. But the 10 domains that we look at are sleep, nutrition, exercise, physical health, productivity, personal growth, leadership, well being, cognition, and social or interpersonal relations. And that's a way for us to try to help give sort of a general profile of the well performing human and So I think if you, if you don't know where to start, I would say look at those 10 different things and say, okay, out of this list, general feel, what am I doing well and what am I not doing well in which ones do I want to focus on and which ones do I want to try to improve? So that's our goal, is to kind of help people get organized, get their thoughts organized around that and then develop a plan. You know, listen to the episodes that are specific to that plan, have the discussions using the questions, you know, that are specific to those topics to kind of help people. But that may be a good place to start as well for people. So now let's lay out maybe a step by step plan. And I know that an exact formula doesn't exist, but let's say we're going to try to intentionally develop talent for ourselves. We talked a little bit about this in the beginning, but do you sort of have a stepwise approach that people can take as they, as they start this practice?
- [36:44]
A
Yeah, I think so. And I think that largely depends on the purpose of your team. You know, what is the organization expecting of you and of the team? What's the output, what's the deliverable? And I think once you're clear about that, then it's a lot easier to determine what specific competencies you could focus on. In terms of where we start, I think it starts with assessment like we've talked about. And you need to validate that assessment with inputs from various people. And that's where a profile or something similar to that could be useful. And then you want a plan that is deliberate and very specific. And I think the more specific the better. You want to exercise with some stress and some resistance. You want to rest so that you can continue to do that. And then you want to adjust, you want to assess, you want to make sure that you've got a scorecard in place that can give you the feedback when you need it, a dashboard that's going to light up, you know, when it, when, when necessary, so that you can make adjustments. I think that's generally the approach.
- [37:57]
B
So I wrote those down as five steps. So the first is assessment, which is really sort of a self assessment. Second is validation. So that's having others sort of assess you, whether that's a mentor or objective outcome, validated scores and things like that. So validate it with others. The third is forming a plan that is deliberate and intentional. The fourth is then actually improve, do, do the work better. And then five is reassess, see where you're at and then repeat.
- [38:25]
A
You got it.
- [38:26]
B
All right. And am I just going to keep repeating this forever, or am I done when I get to step five?
- [38:32]
A
No, I mean, I think it's cyclical, and you've got to continually assess. And the reality is, over the course of a career, we're likely going to move into different roles, even in jobs that we might find ourselves doing the same types of things. The nature in which we're showing up and what the organization is requiring of us is going to be different. So as a junior orthopedic surgeon, the expectations and responsibilities were different than they are, I imagine, as a senior physician, as a physician leader who's got administrative responsibilities. And so I think with every new responsibility, there's a need to reassess. What does the organization need from me, what do my teammates need from me? And then what competencies do I need to grow in order to excel in that job or that role?
- [39:22]
B
Yeah, I think this personal growth is really like. I mean, everything else we talk about here on this project, it's like physical health. It's like leadership. It's like relationships. None of these are a finish line that you cross and then you're done. It's all a journey. And part of that is very encouraging because it's ongoing. You've never fully failed because you're always in the game. You just keep going. But I think for some people, that can often be discouraging to think, oh, I gotta keep doing this forever. So what would you say to those folks that might be discouraged by that? How would you encourage them to stay in the game and keep working on it and stay motivated, keep developing their talent?
- [40:02]
A
Yeah, I'd say look to others for inspiration. We talked about the value of having a coach, even if just as a cheerleader, to provide that encouragement. I think it's useful to remember sort of your big purpose, you know, why am I here? What am I doing? Why does this matter?
- [40:22]
B
And then how would you judge success? So let's say I'm going through this process and I get to it, and I want to know, am I doing it well? Am I actually accomplishing what I'm supposed to? Any advice for how you do that?
- [40:35]
A
I think that feedback comes in different forms. You're going to see those signals from not just the sort of hardcore, quantifiable measurements of progress that your team might have, but you're going to get that feedback from others. You know, people are going to recognize good, impactful work, and you're going to Hear that. And I think when you begin to hear that, it ought to boost your confidence.
- [41:03]
B
Well, I've been taking notes throughout our discussion here and I'd like to take a minute to summarize those. We talked about defining talent, so the skills, attributes and behaviors to help us perform at our highest level. That applies to us at the individual level, but also to the team. And we talked about how talent is developed. Sometimes in technical things, it's really just about increased repetition and deliberate practice. But often in leadership it's a little bit different. It's a more more about getting the best out of others. It's a little bit more abstract, but it really requires you to think and refine and assess a lot more. We talked about the importance of focusing on both strengths and weaknesses, that sometimes if a weakness is, is really significant, it may wipe out your strengths. So you don't want to neglect that. And really the reason why we should be developing talent is because it's the only way for us to reach our full potential. One of the most common mistakes we make is having a lack of focus, which makes us very inefficient. We spend a lot of time, effort, energy and money doing things that actually aren't contributing to the goal that we're doing. So make sure that we're really laser focused. We also talked about how talent development is challenging. It's meant to be hard. You need some stress to grow, but you can still take care of your well being and you can be well in that process. Some of the keys to doing that are to connect the talent you're developing to your purpose and measure your progress through the difficulty and then try to connect with other people and interact with them. We all thrive when we have the appropriate amount of social connection. This is a great opportunity to do it. In terms of a plan, you gave us a great five step plan that applies to us as individuals or our team. Either way, step one is doing an assessment of yourself or your team. The second is then doing validation so getting some external input from others to figure out what, what you're good at, what you're not good at. The third is coming up with a plan that's intentional and deliberate. The fourth is actually improving and following through with that plan. And then the fifth, reassess and repeat the process over and over. And I think one of the keys of this is going to be learn how to fall in love with the process and celebrate your progress. As everybody knows, I like to end with a challenge or a call to action. And if you've been listening to this podcast. You should know what the challenge is going to be for this one. We always sort of start with the first step and you laid it out nicely. Step number one is that assessment. So take inventory and ask yourself, what am I good at? What am I not good at? What's important to me? What do I want to start with? And if you don't really know how to do it, I would encourage you take a look at the 10 domains that we talk about in this project and look at those. Use those as a general starting guide to say, all right, which one of these do I really want to focus on and try to improve? So just start that initial assessment. That's step one. That that's the challenge. And then if you want to know what step two is, it's then confirm that with somebody else. So talk to a mentor, talk to a friend or a loved one to say, hey, I think I need to work on this. I want to get better at this. What's your take? Often having that sounding board I think can be immensely helpful. That sound fair?
- [44:07]
A
Sounds great. You nailed it.
- [44:08]
B
Awesome. Adam. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciated having this discussion with you. It's really fun.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah, thanks again.
- [44:17]
B
If you like this episode, please share it with a friend and leave us a review review on your podcast app. It really helps others find the show. Got feedback, a question or a topic idea? Email us at optimizeayo. Edu or leave us a voicemail at 507-538-6272. We might even feature your voice on the show. For more human optimization episodes and resources, check us out online at Cell. Remember, long term well being starts with the habits you build today. Live intentionally perform exceptionally. I'm Dr. Christopher Camp. Thanks for listening. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as medical or legal advice.
- [45:20]
A
Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider for any medical questions. The appearance of any guest does not imply an endorsement of them, their employer, or any entity they represent. The views and opinions are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mayo Clinic.
- [45:36]
B
Reference to any product, service or entity
- [45:39]
A
does not constitute an endorsement of or recommendation by Mayo Clinic.