← Mayo Clinic On Human Optimization
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- [00:02]
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It begins at birth. Like when you are born. You are 100% reliant on somebody taking care of you and all your basic needs. It is the first task in developmental psychology. Trust or not trust.
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This is Mayo Clinic on Human Optimization, a podcast where we break down the science of human potential to help you understand how purpose driven effort leads to high level performance and long term wellbeing. Hi, I'm Dr. Christopher Camp, Director of High Performance for the Minnesota Twins and a sports medicine surgeon with Mayo Clinic. New relationships are hard for a reason. There's no trust. You're starting from scratch with no common understanding, no established shared goals or history of goodwill. Everyone's feeling vulnerable, but also suspicious. It feels hard to take risk or even just relax and be yourself. So how do we get past the awkwardness and start building trust or rebuild it after it's been lost? This episode, we're joined by Dr. Karen Mellom. She holds a PhD in counseling psychology and is a human resources administrator and executive leadership coach at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. And she's here to help us stop waiting for others to prove themselves and start being the first mover. The three big questions we're going to ask Dr. Mellom today are, number one, what is trust and why is it crucial for high performance teams? Question number two, why is trust so hard to build and maintain? And then in the third section, we'll ask, how do we move from being suspicious by default to trusting by design while still maintaining healthy boundaries? Karen, thank you so much for joining us today. Excited to have this conversation with you.
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A
Thank you for having me.
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B
All right, as we dive into our first section, I want to talk a little bit about some definitions. And I'm wondering for you as an expert who's an executive leadership coach with a PhD in counseling psychology, how do you define trust?
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A
I really like a definition by Charles Feltman, who wrote the book the Thin Book of Trust. And it is choosing to risk making something you value vulnerable to another person's actions. And I think that trust is just inextricably linked to safety. And so am I safe with you? It's just fundamental to our existence, I think from birth to every interaction that we have. And there's lots of different ways that we can be harmed. It could be physically, emotionally, socially, reputation, financially, et cetera. Lots and different ways. I also think about this with medicine. It's interesting with a Hippocratic oath, first do no harm, right? Not intentionally going to try to hurt somebody. So I think trust is like woven in with medicine. And every relationship that we have. So choose to risk making something you value vulnerable to another person's actions.
- [03:12]
B
It's clear that trust is essential to success, and it's really critical to us performing at our highest level for being well and fostering that environment where people are going to succeed. It's interesting how we all know that, but there's still a lot of confusion around trust and a lot of misunderstanding ones I think will be helpful is to try to wrap our heads around what the key elements of trust are. So what are some of those elements you feel like that must be in place in order for trust to occur?
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A
Yeah, I like this model by Meester, Green and Galford. They a trust equation. So they have four components to it. Number one is credibility. Do you have the competence to do whatever task or work? Can I believe you? The second is reliability. How consistent are you? Predictable, dependable, reliable. The third is intimacy or safety. Can I be honest and vulnerable with you? It's about that empathy side of things, of connecting as humans. And then the last one is self orientation, which is, who are you in this for? Are you in it for yourself? Are you also in it for others or for me? And so, and actually, that is the most important element for trust is that piece. So we can come at things from multiple angles, not just your own. And the equation is that it's credibility plus reliability plus intimacy, safety divided by the self orientation, that one standing out more so.
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B
So credibility, reliability, and then intimacy or safety and self orientation.
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A
Yeah. And actually, I wanted to come at this question maybe with a bit of a story of something that I heard really recently of one of our physician leaders who just took over leading a committee that has leaders from lots of different areas in our organization, who has all the different surgical committees, what he decided to do because he's credible as a surgeon. But then there's multiple and, you know, different kinds of surgeries and ways and teams and roles. He can be have the credibility generally as a physician and as a surgeon. But you might not know my stuff, how we do our work and the impacts of us trying to have this or in this space and these things to do our work. So he started scrubbing in and that's. I just love that. I am thinking about that a lot with all the different specialty areas of surgery to see how they did it and establish some credibility with each of them then on the work that they're doing. So that's one thing. You can have credibility in one area, but how do you also learn or grow your competence in Other areas that matter to people and you don't have to know everything, but at least enough to make the connection. The reliability piece is that he was showing up in a predictable way. He was dependable. What he was trying to implement wasn't based just on what he knew, but taking into account where other people were coming from. So showing up in that way and then intimacy, safety. The other thing that he did, he started going out to dinner with people, just getting to know them on a personal basis. And their spouses connected with them as just whole human beings, not just work people. And I think we can underestimate that in the workplace, especially if we're really task oriented or we got a lot of things we got to do and we got to get them done that we can skip over. But how are they doing? How's their family? Do we know them? What a difference that can actually make to a high performing team to establish those relationships, that time is well worth it and helps create and build that. You're not just in it for yourself, you are in it for me. You know who I am. So that self orientation, that last one, I think he did all those things. He established credibility. He was reliable, dependable, predictable. He got to know them, that measure of real connection. And then he wasn't in it just for himself to implement a change and transform this area. But he scrubbed in and the goals then were shared goals that they could all get behind. And it doesn't mean automatically, bam. Okay, we're all in agreement on how things. Some of that conflict is still too common and to work through. But you've laid the groundwork to get to that high performance.
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B
It's interesting in that example, as he was taking those actions to establish his credibility, reliability and intimacy or safety, he was also establishing that self orientation and letting people know, I'm not just here for me. In fact, most of what he was doing was probably very inconvenient for him. And so he was definitely putting the other people first. And so that probably helped anchor all of that as well.
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A
I love that. And he shared too, his plan initially was 90 days and it took a year.
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B
So I think pretty clear you did a great job of describing what each of those are and why they're important. Let's talk a little bit about some of the benefits of trust. And I think most of these benefits probably apply to our personal lives as well as our professional lives for sure. So what are some of the benefits in both of those spaces?
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A
It begins at birth. It's so foundational to who we are. Like, when you are born, you are 100% reliant on somebody taking care of you and all your basic needs. And also how you connect the wiring, the eye contact between parent and child gets at that bonding piece, your sense of security emotionally, physically, your whole wellbeing. It is the first task in developmental psychology, trust or not trust. So I think it starts, yes, on the personal side right from the beginning. And there's some shaping that can happen for us on how secure we feel then in subsequent relationships too. But I think it is that sense, can you be yourself? And we find that in different relationships through our life, places where we feel we can and places where we feel we can't, all of those things are linked to ultimately how well we are. Even our physical well being, it impacts decisions we will make on whether we're going to interact with certain people or not. Do we kind of lean in or step back larger socially? Sometimes it's described as the lubricant of social systems. Do we trust? Can we connect across, collaborate, be willing to, you know, exchange information, goods, et cetera? And that can create larger, healthier societies when there's more exchange in that way too. One of the research areas that I really love around trust is John Gottman's work. He does a lot with counseling couples, and he talks about trust and betrayal are the number one issue that come up with couples. And. And that trust is in lots of different ways. Can I trust you when I'm upset? Can I trust you to respect me? Can I trust that you actually will be faithful to me? So lots of different ways that trust shows up. And then the other thing that I really like on the personal side around trust is that it doesn't mean an absence of conflict. In fact, that can be an important component for us to get to a deeper trust. So in Gottman's work, he found that about Two thirds, or 69% of conflicts are perpetual with couples. Wow. Wow. So it's not for lack of conflict and you're gonna have these things you run into, but it's how do you fight to make it right? And that's one of his first things. It's, you fight to understand rather than just to prove yourself or to have the right side of the argument and that you make repairs, you express positivity. Five to one ratio. That's interesting. On both personal and the work side. That ratio I've three is like bare minimum, positive to negative or constructive, five to one. It's moving things forward. Seven to one. Even better. And yet how often we actually do that in relationships to help that trust going.
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B
And you're saying like seven to one, positive comments to negative comments.
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A
Yeah, yeah. But he did it with couples. Right. So in your own relationships, as you think about that, that is affecting the trust. How positive are you on a daily basis with your spouse, partner and then the last one saying thank you. So lots of different ways that trust comes through and it comes through in lots of behaviors on a daily basis.
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B
And really all those things you described, they do apply, I think in a personal situation as well as a professional situation. Now let's talk about the flip side of that. What are some of the downsides when trust is lower than it should be?
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A
It goes hand in hand with this. When we're afraid, we sort of shut down. We don't have trust. We're going to distance ourselves. In some ways we may be more suspicious, like not trusting someone's motives back to that sort of fear. Or we might just be resistant. We're just not going to go with whatever it is that you want to do or defensive, more. Right. Protective of ourselves. So it's more conflict is going to happen. We're probably more likely to withhold information or could be more controlling even. Like I'm going to, you're not reliable. I'm going to keep checking and checking and checking. All of those affect those relationships that we have and that back to the body stress, it can be physically taxing on your body. When that continues to go on, it affects being able to collaborate, it affects being able to get work done or even things in your own home life because all of that other activity is going on, it's maybe shutting you down, lots of negative implications.
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B
And unfortunately I think a lot of those negative implications will compound on one another too. Right. So you're less trusting at work. Then you're probably less likely to accomplish things at work, which then impacts your performance, which also is going to impact your well being, which is. And that's going to affect your performance. And so you can really start down this negative spiral pretty quickly, unfortunately. But if we can flip it, maybe we can turn that spiral to the positive and start to get some compounding positive benefits. If we can build trust and if
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A
I can just speak to that from an organizational standpoint, they've done studies on low trust to high trust organizations. Meta analysis Paul Zak's done a lot of research on trust too. And what he found is compared to people at low trust companies, people in High Trust report 74% less stress 50% higher productivity, 76% more engagement. Just as some examples to exactly what you just said. There's so many benefits for high trust. It's just, it can be challenging sometimes to get to that place of high trust.
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B
So I've been blessed and also challenged in a lot of ways in being a part of many teams that were high trust and some teams that were low trust. And it's usually pretty easy to distinguish, I think, from those extremes. But sometimes there's that group in the middle that is reasonably well functioning. Maybe everybody sort of gets along, but not necessarily a high trust environment. So can you tell what's the difference between groups that simply get along versus groups that genuinely trust one another? How can you tell the difference?
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A
So I actually like Tuckman's model for how groups form and beyond just getting along. And if you've ever heard of forming, storming, norming, performing, but most groups the team meets, they start someone early thinking about roles or goals. They kind of get to know each other, but I would say at a surface level and then conflict the storming. And back to that. This can be an important way actually to deepen trust, is we don't always see things the same way, or our styles are different, or our ideas are different, or we're just different, or we get frustrated. But that is an important element to move a team to higher performance. How they navigate and work through that storm, if you will, avoiding it, you're not going to get full performance. So an important step and then it's establish some of what your rules are, what are our shared expectations, even how we're going to navigate this conflict that allows you to collaborate and fosters that trust further and helps establish what the team's norms are. That norming element, just from a organizational standpoint, Amazon is famous for saying disagree, then commit. So they actually expect their leaders to come in and rigorously debate how something is going to happen, what they're going to do. But then once they have that disagreement, everyone's best ideas, they'll go with a decision and then they all commit to it. So I think there's that element too for high performance, navigating the storms, norming, how we're going to navigate through this successfully in a way that works, and then commit to what the action is. And that's where you're going to get that highest level of performance from teams, from members. People are motivated, they're willing to share, they're going to get behind the action, even if it's not the best. For me, this Time, the greater good is going to call the day in how people achieve their objectives.
- [16:56]
B
That's good. I like that. So forming, storming, norming, and performing. Four key things to look at. That's great. I think a lot of us think about the performance component of trust when it's high. We also think about sort of the emotional toil that trust takes on us when it's low. But I want to ask you a little bit about the sort of the physiology. So I think the physical impact of trust on our bodies is something we probably don't think about. But how does a lack of trust affect us physically? What's happening to our nervous system when we're in that low trust environment?
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A
Yeah, it is a lot about our brains, actually. And I love all this element of how our brains are wired and that there are things in our brains that help us trust and connect, and there are things in our brains that are actually more about survival. So part of how our brain develops is at a very deep structural level is our amygdala. It's deep within even the structures of our brain itself. Hard to get to that part of your brain. And that is really about safety, the fight or flight. Most people know that. And when we perceive threat, that kicks in and it will override other parts of our brain that develop later. And that can help us navigate things a bit differently than that. Gut instinct, I gotta get out of this. I gotta get through it. I'm gonna run or I'm gonna fight or in some cases, freeze. So the other part of our brain is right up front, prefrontal cortex. And that's the last part of our brain to develop from a human standpoint. It's the last part of evolution that happened to create that part of the brain that makes some of what, how humans unique. And that part of our brain is how we solve problems, plan in complex ways, reason, make decisions. It's also the part of the brain where we control some of our impulses, organize our behavior to achieve our goals. So in a high trust, you can get into that place of your front of your brain and make those complex decisions, navigate through some of that low trust. It's gonna be more instinctive. Fight or flight, survive, get out of this. And in terms of the hormone part of it is, well, if you're in that low trust, it's more the stress hormones that are happening which inhibits the prefrontal cortex, inhibits that ability to connect and plan and do complex thinking. Whereas the feel good and actually the good neurotransmitters at work are, you see, in the high trust environments. So that is oxytocin, that bonding neurotransmitter that allows us to connect and feel safe and wired. And it starts right at birth and all the way through into later connections. And then also love dopamine. You hear about that. But when we connect and make those real human connections, it's rewarding, it feels good, and we want to do that again. And so I think just being aware of how our brains are structured, that survival is going to take over first. Is there a way we can take a beat or a pause if we're feeling that sense of stress even in our body to get more curious and empathetic, like, how might this person be coming at this, seeing this differently than I am, to hopefully navigate past just that? I'm going to shut down or withdraw. This will help me lean in a little bit better and maybe get to that place where we want to go.
- [20:42]
B
Well, I think while we're talking about the brain, we'll use this to sort of transition into our second section where we're going to talk about why it's so hard to build and maintain trust. Why does it seem that our brain is wired to do not trust at its default?
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A
Part of how humans have survived is that they've done really well to detect threats. So right there out of the gate, you know, if you see a vine, it's a safer bet to go that's a snake and run from it than the reverse. And so just from the beginning, we're much more likely to pay attention to sort of what could be negative or harmful or threatening in some way. Part of that survival. It's better safe than sorry. We've all heard that. So lightning fast. We're so instinctual in how we pick up what those threats are. And they can be large threats, but they can also be subtle things. And how we read or pick up cues for that. And again, has to do with some of our shaping early on as well.
- [21:46]
B
I'm wondering if somebody's out there and they recognize that they have difficulty building trust with people. Are there certain types of underlying characteristics or behaviors or things about individual people that make them less likely to trust one another?
- [22:04]
A
Again, some of the shaping that occurs for us early on affects. But I'll just even say back to brain structures in things that are different than us or how we perceive may be different for us could be a potential threat. And so that gets the response, at least initially, of protective or I'm going to wait and see or you know, could be more on the aggressive end of things too. And coming back to can we lean in with more curiosity and empathy to really get at how we might be similar or how might collaboration pay off than going automatically in our brain to this place of you're different. So I'm going to back away. In terms of other styles, communication styles. A lot gets said about passive aggressive. I think that that style is just confusing for people to read. You're saying one thing but seeming to mean another. And so then we're trying to figure out what's the agenda or what is this going on. It just takes a lot of time. So that can be where we don't trust when there's less direct communication. Other personality traits of people, you know, lots of what they call personality disorders out there that could also impact the trusting. If my behavior is really erratic or if I am not telling the truth, or if I'm not consistent, not showing up, not reliable, if I'm really sensitive or afraid that other relationships are going to be more important than mine. So that jealousy factor can come in, all of those can make trust harder.
- [23:53]
B
And I think what you talked about of somebody is different than me can show up in a lot of ways. We think about it in terms of socioeconomic status, background, but the whole in group versus out group thing I think manifests even in smaller ways. Maybe we work for the same company, but you're on this team, I'm on this team and you know, we should be working towards the same goal. But I kind of want our team to outperform your team or you know, sports allegiances. You know, you see Red Sox fans, Yankees fans, they can't get along with each other. There's all of these different things that I think that do make us different and it's. We need to try to learn to celebrate those things and over overcome them in order to, to build some trust. One of the things I've noticed too though, it can be really difficult to maintain trust during periods of high stress or if there's true challenge to an organization or group or even as an individual. So how do you do that when you're really going through a difficult or challenging time?
- [24:51]
A
Yeah, it is hard. Speaks to the world that we're in right now. I think we're learning through this because that in high stress, a lot of change, we don't know a lot of things that right there puts us in that uncertain place. So we're in the fear mode from the get go. And survival. How can I protect myself or my people or however we're thinking about that. And my instincts is going to be whatever our own stress response is, whether that's like to be in there fighting it out or to just withdraw. As a leader, I think one of the most important things you can do is regulate your stress response. And that's different for different people because leaders, they do set that emotional tone. So my body and my words and my tone are all conveying I'm stressed out. It just ripples right out to the team. And then they're all feeling that anxious state and. And harder to do our best performance. So take that deep breath, you know, take a moment. One of the leaders I had an opportunity to coach once realized she was going from meeting to meeting to meeting. Many of us do. She was not showing up her best going like that. So she held to sort of set the boundary of, I'm gonna take five minutes between each meeting just to take a breath, think about what I'm going into next and who with who so I can show up as my best person, self. And so whatever the practices are for each of us, holding onto those, even amidst a really high stress or a lot of change situation that we're in, I think the other thing, empathy, empathy, empathy. When you're stressed, it's hard to connect in that way. So again, being intentional in your practices of how might they be seeing it from their perspective, how is that change going to affect this person? How are they going to respond? Noticing the emotional parts of that and being able to speak to that as a leader at least can help you connect that. I'm getting how you feel through this. Having a superordinate goal that we've got to get to, this can rally a larger troop around that. If you think of the pandemic time craziness, but we did in, in health care, it was around keeping people as safe and healthy through that time as possible and through a lot of high stress. That was the goal and that helped kind of align people to it.
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B
That's great. And I do think stress can be incredibly challenging for so many of us. One of the reasons is because I think building and breaking trust feels very asymmetric. Meaning it is very challenging to build trust, but extremely easy to destroy it. Why is that?
- [28:00]
A
We are. We're going to go right back to neuroscience again. And it's so true. Brene Brown does a lot of work around this whole area of vulnerability and betrayal and trust she talks about. Trust is built slowly, consistently with positive interactions where you can Develop this reliable mental model of safety. But betrayal breaks it in a second, in a moment. And so the other thing, once that happens with distrust, is that it's contagious, that spreads. Now your peers are wondering, your boss is wondering. So your influence as a leader can be impacted by that break of trust to the neuroscience. It is around. People are afraid. Now, I thought I could trust you, but can't I? Maybe I can't. And I'm going to go back to that protect, defender or fight mode. So one thing, none of us are perfect, not one person. And so there are gonna be times where we don't show up our best or we mess up. How quickly can we catch it for ourselves? And so some of the efforts around there, it's back to medical, stop the bleed, start there, right there. Just own it that you did this, whatever it was. And from there, you know, you might need to offer some kind of explanation. How did you get there to that decision or action to not defend it, but to build some context of it and that you're owning it so that you are learning from what just happened. You're kind of dissecting the problem, if you will yourself, and then you're committing visibly to mend, repair, fix in this way. And then you build it over time. And some of the research is that trust Recovery can take 12 to 18 months. Wow. Versus three to six months to establish trust from a fresh start. So three times or more longer to build back. And that's all those equation things being consistent, reliable, reconnecting in it for someone else, not just yourself, all those same things.
- [30:29]
B
So it's clearly critical try to establish it, try not to break it. But if you do, you gave us a great outline of the things that we can do to try to recover it. But I'm wondering, as a part of this process, obviously trust is good. It's a good thing. We need more of it in the world. But can it be overdone? So I'm wondering, are there certain people or characteristics or hallmarks that I need to look out for in other people that should make me say, ooh, I should not trust this individual.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah, that is really good. Because some people are more wired to trust, like you said, that you have a little bit more oxytocin and they're willing to take the risk to connect and trust somebody. And that can be overdone, that we are blindly trusting. So the things to be on guard, there is a certain personality type known as the dark triad. So it's narcissistic. Which is somebody really thinking very highly of themselves and can be arrogant and just entitled. Usually they just need to be admired. And probably people come into mind as we think about that. A second element is Machiavellianism. And these are folks who are liars. They're really good at exploiting other people, and they can see the ends justify the means. That's how they can do lots of actions that other people would really be, you know, surprised at. And then the last one's psychopathy, which is just, you don't have empathy or remorse. You can't see it from someone else's perspective. It's only your own. And when those three go together, a lot of harm can happen. Especially, especially the last one, that empathy piece. If. If you can't connect or see the harm that you, your actions are having on others, that's a real watch out. So what can you do to make sure. In some cases, not blindly trusting. A few things. One, if you're seeing someone's actions not aligned with their words, they're breaking promises, they're not following through. You know, that's something to have the conversation on and see where it goes. Overly charming, like love bombing. Sometimes you hear this, like, over the top. You might want to have your guard up on that one a little bit. If they don't seem to feel guilt at hurting people, okay, I'd really pay attention to that one. But other things too, if they're really secretive, maybe they're hiding information or hiding
- [33:01]
C
texts,
- [33:04]
A
not being honest. If they're always the victim, they're always the one who's gotten hurt, or don't admit when they might have contributed to something. All of these kinds of actions should probably raise questions in your mind about their actions not aligning with how they're showing up. And do you want to invest more of yourself into that? It could be hurtful.
- [33:29]
B
I think initially, when you mention these terms of the dark triad, narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, people think, oh, I don't see that very often. That's kind of uncommon. But then when you describe what those behaviors look like, I think most of them would say, ooh, I've seen that in a lot of other people. Maybe even I've seen some of that in myself as well. So I think it's out there and you need to be very cautious. So now let's take this to transition into our third section, where I'd like to start putting together some solutions where we can kind of move from being suspicious by default to Trusting by design with some intention. So earlier you mentioned that it takes three to six months to build trust in a new relationship. Do you sort of have a stepwise plan or process that people can take when they're trying to build trust in a new, normal, regular relationship?
- [34:28]
A
One of the things we talked about before is that 5 to 1 positivity ratio. I think that applies not just in couples, but it applies in the workplace and with our relationships of just recognizing and appreciating those people around us. A lot of good currency there on an ongoing basis. It also gets you, you know, not just thinking about yourself, but thinking about other people here. And when you're part of a team that does that well, it's incredibly bonding and rewarding to be part of it and also to make some of those things public, not just private, one on one. But how can you share that in more tangible ways that others can see too? A second one is the intentionality around building relationships. Google did a study and one of the things they found with managers in particular is when managers expressed interest and concern for team members, their success and their wellbeing, the team performance improved. So, I mean, that can sound Machiavellian too. I'm going to pay attention to you so that we perform better, but I. So there's some genuine authentic interest in other people that are around you and the relationships of the people that you work with every day. A key one back to Brene Brown is that vulnerability piece. So I'm willing to share something that you could harm in some way can actually create bonds of trust with you. And it's scale, doing the right amount at the right time. And that for bosses sometimes can be around them asking for help. So that tells me I need something. You know, I'm establishing your credibility. I'm reaching out to your help for something too. It's a sign of someone secure enough to say, I need some help. The other is as much as you can in the workplace to give people autonomy to do the work they want to do, that they need to do. That actually helps a lot with creativity and innovation when someone has more control over their work, their time. So those are a few, I would say, on how to keep building trust.
- [36:41]
B
That's a great list. And in our last section, you, you told us what we can do once we've lost somebody's trust, some steps that we need to take in order to, to regain that trust. What if you're the opposite? What. What if you're on the other end of that and somebody has done Something to, to violate your trust in them. How do I handle that situation? Somebody I used to trust, something happened and now they've broken that trust, they're trying to repair it. How do I need to respond?
- [37:10]
A
Yeah, a couple different angles. I think on this end, on the one side, I think it's appropriate and right that you do some prioritization of your safety. Let's just say in this situation, emotional safety. Do you have your boundaries around this individual? If the trust was broken and can you communicate that directly so they know as well? Sounds like they are. They're trying to work it out with you? I think some of it is by your history. How much of a past do you have together? And lots of questions, right. What was the breach? How long did the breach go on? What do you want? Do you want to work through it? Might be really painful. Are you willing to do that? That's some, some of the decision making people will make. Navigating the, the conversation of the conflict itself. I'd turn people to just look up crucial conversations, how to do that. So part of that is the story. What's, you know, what's the story you're telling yourself around what happened and then being clear about what you want or need be willing to have that conversation and decide from there. Can you get aligned on where things need to go for that trust to be reestablished. And then it's the consistency of the practice of that person over time to give you an idea. Okay, it's coming, it's coming. I'm gonna keep being willing to be vulnerable, that this person's on the right track. Same for yourself, right? We all do that too. We have to work on ourselves, on continuing to establish. I am a trusting person here.
- [38:55]
B
That's a great list. And I think that's excellent for one on one individuals. What about somebody who's a member on a team and generally maybe the team gets along, but it's not a high trust team. So not necessarily the leader, but just a teammate. We're all part of those groups. How can I improve trust in that environment?
- [39:16]
A
I think truly in any system, one person can have impact on that system. To not take any action is only going to continue what you have. So there's some choice to take a risk, if you will, to change the system and that you either being vulnerable or having a connection or being like taking someone out for coffee to start, establish some of that, that bonding or connection, start saying some positive things about your colleagues at work. Giving someone recognition for a job well done, giving the credit to other people who get the work done. Even those little things can start creating reciprocity in the system that can build from there.
- [40:02]
B
I think it's great and it's really similar to the things that you would do with another individual as well. And so I think recognizing that as a single person on a team, you do have the power to shape the culture of that team, the trust on that team. And you may not be able to do it in one fell swoop. It takes time. But doing these small actions that compound over time, I think can be really helpful. You mentioned earlier, when trust is broken, it's important to set clear boundaries. What about from the get go? What are some appropriate boundaries people need to put up around trust so that they aren't taken advantage of?
- [40:39]
A
Some is your own definition. So you doing some work yourself. What drains you? What makes you uncomfortable? How do you notice when you're feeling stress in your own body? You know, shoulders, stomach, whatever it is, like what are the cues? And knowing something's off or doesn't feel right, increasing that awareness for yourself of your limits or boundaries, that's what they are. And then secondly, getting stronger and practicing that communication being very clear. I'm, you know, feeling uncertain. This feels like mixed cues to me or back to, you know what I need out of this? I need you to be here when I ask you to be here. And then is it happening? Is another part of it. So. So defining your limits, communicating those so others aren't guessing, but it's clear to them as well. And then it's like anything. What's the consequence if it doesn't happen and you can be intentional about that going to not continue to engage in this relationship or conversation or discussion. If it's smaller when you're consistently seeing some kind of boundary being crossed, that's healthy. That is being, you know, protective of yourself. And I think the smaller and earlier you can do some of the things, the better. It sets how this relationship or engagement is going to go. And lots of ways you can be as positive as possible around how those boundaries are helpful. But I think those are important elements and then you don't need to over explain it.
- [42:22]
B
That's great. So I'd like to take a minute here to summarize my notes. I've been writing ferociously as we've been going through this, so I'll recap that quickly and then I'll give you a chance to give us our take home message. So trust you define as choosing to risk making something that you Value vulnerable to another person's action. We talked about the elements of trust with four big elements. The first being credibility, which means do you have competence? The second, reliability. How consistent are you? And can I count on you? The third, intimacy or safety? Can I be my honest, authentic self with you? And the fourth is self orientation. Who are you in this for? Are you in this for yourself or for other people? We talked about some of the benefits of being in a high trust environment, and they're extensive. So it allows you to be yourself. Improves physical well being, improves decision making skills and capacity. Improves social connection, which we know is one of the key drivers of joystick. It facilitates a better exchange of ideas and there's generally more positivity, which I think is really helpful in the professional environment. High Trust environments have 74% less stress, 50% more productivity, 76% more engagement. So it's highly beneficial in both our personal lives and our professional lives. From a physiologic standpoint, if you're in a low trust environment, the amygdala is sort of hijacked and you have an increased fight or flight response. Your prefrontal cortex is dialed down and unfortunately that's the part of your brain that helps you with problem solving, decision making, and it's pretty critical. Stress hormones are increased and some of those reward and relaxation hormones are decreased. There's a number of reasons why we tend not to trust people at our basis. And that's because we, we all have a strong negativity bias that we have to actively fight and overcome. We generally don't like things that are different from us for whatever reason. Communication styles are often a reason. We don't trust inconsistencies in people's behaviors and their words or their motives. And then also if we're overly sensitive, that can harm us as well. You mentioned that it takes three to six months generally to build trust when you're starting fresh and new. So it's not an instant process. And it takes 12 to 18 months to rebuild trust after you've broken it previously. So it's important to get it right at the beginning. Do everything you can not to break it. When we talk about warning signs of people we shouldn't trust, you mentioned look out for the dark triad personality characteristics. So the three components of the dark triad are narcissism, which means I only care about me, Machiavellianism, which means I'm willing to hurt you, and then the third, psychopathy, which means it doesn't bother me and I don't Care. I don't feel remorse for it. So look out for overt or subtle manifestations of those different personality traits. And then the last section, you gave us some answers. So how can we build trust with other individuals? We talked about the importance of positive comments and feedback as opposed to negative. So it typically takes a 5 to 1 ratio of positives to negatives to move a relationship forward. Praise in public, be very intentional with your relationships, make sure you have appropriate vulnerability, and then give necessary autonomy to people that you're trying to trust. And really, it's the same thing for increasing trust on a team. If someone has broken your trust, you need to set clear boundaries, reflect on your history with that individual, state what you want, have the crucial conversations, and be trusting yourself. So that's my summary of our discussion. I'll let you wrap it up for us. What's the most important thing you want people to take away from this discussion today?
- [45:54]
A
Well, I'm going to quote Brene Brown. She's done so much around this. So she says trust is a product of vulnerability. It grows over time and it requires work, attention, and full engagement. Trust is not built in big sweeping moments. It's in tiny moments every day.
- [46:12]
B
That's great. But you know, really everything important in life operates on those principles that, you know, none of these things are a flash in the pan and happen rapidly. So anything that's really worth having long term requires intentionality and consistency. And I think trust is a great example of that. So thank you for bringing that out. And so now the call to action or the challenge that we're going to issue for this is I want people to think about a new or fresh relationship that they have where there's no history of distrust. That's the 201 level. That's the second level. So we'll start at the basic level, new relationship, and think about how you want to intentionally build trust in that relationship. You gave us some great steps, and I would say start with that 5 to 1 positive to negative ratio. So try to find some positive things in that individual or in that team that you can highlight and continue to do that and see how that impacts people over time. Karen, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a really, really good discussion.
- [47:09]
A
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
- [47:16]
B
If you like this episode, please share it with a friend and leave us a review on your podcast app. It really helps others find the show. Got feedback, a question or a topic idea? Email us at optimizeayo. Edu or leave us a voicemail at 507-538-6272. We might even feature your voice on the show. For more human optimization episodes and resources, check us out online at ce mayo.edu. optimize. Remember, long term well being starts with the habits you build today. Live intentionally perform exceptionally. I'm Dr. Christopher Camp. Thanks for listening.
- [48:12]
C
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