Podcast
Messy Social Work
Hosted by Messy Social Work · EN
Welcome to the Messy Social Work podcast. The hosts are Richard Devine and Tim Fisher.
Check out our website here: https://www.relationalactivism.com/
44episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection
2d ago00:36:39Summary readyWhy do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities.Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available.The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them.A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.
SummaryRich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice
1w ago00:42:07Tap to summarizeIn this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull.Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about.Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics.This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to ex-undercover police officer and bestselling author Neil Woods about why the war on drugs is failing
3w ago01:15:23Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better.Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched.We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD.Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice.This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families.Contact Neil here: https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woodshttps://www.neilwoods.net/His book is available online and on audible
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to foster carer Gareth K Thomas: what every social worker should know about children in care, trauma‑informed parenting and supporting carers
4w ago01:09:36Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we sit down with foster carer Gareth K Thomas to explore his experiences of caring for children who have lived through trauma, and what it really means to offer trauma-informed care in practice.Gareth shares honest reflections on the realities of foster care - the rewards, the challenges, and the emotional impact of supporting children who have experienced adversity. We talk about how trauma shows up in behaviour, how carers can make sense of what they’re seeing, and the importance of staying curious, compassionate, and regulated in the face of difficult moments.The conversation also explores:What trauma-informed care looks like day-to-dayThe importance of relationships, trust, and consistencySupporting children without losing sight of yourselfThe wider system around foster care - what helps and what gets in the wayAs ever, this is a grounded and thoughtful discussion that keeps the focus on real-life practice, not theory alone.Gareth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garethkthomas/Gareth's website: https://garethkthomas.com/https://www.clrfd.com/48/Gareth's forthcoming bookhttps://a-z-book.com/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim get headlines form Mithran Samuel’s, and speak to social worker Ellen
Jun 1201:02:51Tap to summarizeRelational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to social worker Rose Byrne about her upbringing, caring for her sister and ADHD
Jun 500:54:57Tap to summarizeRelational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to Maddy McCormack (Social Worker) on the realities of Child Protection Social Work
May 2200:56:11Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we speak with Maddy McCormack, a social worker early in her career, about the realities of stepping into practice with children and families.Maddy reflects on her route into the role, what day-to-day social work actually looks like, and what she’s had to learn beyond training to be effective in her first year. We explore how she builds relationships with young people and their families, especially in contexts of risk, conflict, and uncertainty.She speaks candidly about the emotional demands of the work — including doubt, moral distress, and the cases that stay with you — and how this can shape thinking and practice under pressure.We also discuss what helps her stay relational when things are tough, what sustains her in the role, and the moments that remind her why the work matters.An honest conversation about learning on the job, staying human, and the emotional weight of social work.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to Sharon Shoesmith about Baby P, blame and learning from tragedies
May 1501:10:34Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we sit down with Sharon Shoesmith to revisit one of the most defining and contentious moments in modern child protection: the case of Baby P, and the national reaction that followed.Sharon reflects candidly on what it meant to become the focus of public anger—labelled, scrutinised, and ultimately removed from her role—despite leading a service that had been judged as “good” by Ofsted. We explore the personal toll of that experience and the powerful social and political forces that demand accountability in the wake of tragedy.Drawing on psychoanalytic and social theory, the conversation moves beyond headlines to examine how society processes—and often avoids—the reality of harm to children. We discuss the idea of social workers as “containers” for collective anxiety, the “pain of knowing” about abuse, and why narratives of professional failure can feel easier to accept than confronting human cruelty within families.We also interrogate the enduring legacy of the Baby P case: the rise of “never event” thinking, the political promise of certainty, and how fear has shaped systems that prioritise compliance over meaningful risk management.Along the way, Sharon challenges assumptions about gender and harm, reflects on what remains unlearned, and offers a clear-eyed perspective on leadership in conditions defined by uncertainty.This is a thoughtful, at times uncomfortable conversation about blame, denial, grief, and what it really means to safeguard children in a complex world.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim introduce Systemic Ideas in Social Work with student Natasha Dube and author Liz Bosanquet
May 801:22:09Tap to summarizeIn this episode of the Messy Social Work podcast, we begin with a conversation with Natasha Dube, before Rich and Tim discuss Liz Bosanquet’s new book, Systemic Social Work Practice. The discussion explores how systemic ideas can move beyond theory and into everyday practice, helping practitioners think relationally about families, organisations and the wider systems shaping people’s lives. A conversation about curiosity, context, relationships and what systemic practice looks like in the reality of social work.Link to Book https://uk.jkp.com/products/systemic-social-work-practiceRelational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss time management (Part 2)
May 600:45:23Tap to summarizeIn this second bonus episode, Rich, Tim and Charlotte build directly on Part 1, turning their attention to the four remaining ideas from Rich’s blog on resilience in social work and exploring how these play out in practice.The conversation moves beyond individual productivity and into the ethical and emotional costs of working under sustained pressure. Drawing on Vikki Reynolds’ work, the episode explores burnout not as a personal failing, but as a response to spiritual pain, moral distress and ethical trespassing – the harm that occurs when social workers are repeatedly required to act against their values within constrained systems.Together, they reflect on how time pressure, risk management and organisational demands can quietly erode meaning, solidarity and hope, and why self‑care alone is never enough. Instead, the focus shifts to collective ethics, justice‑doing, and mutual accountability, asking what helps social workers remain human, connected and sustainable in the work.The episode closes with a reframing of resilience – not as coping better alone, but as finding ways to work in solidarity, uphold shared values, and resist the pull towards isolation, cynicism or burnout in systems that are often set up to make ethical practice hard.Vicki Reynolds: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Doing-Intersections-Power-Vikki-Reynolds/dp/0648154521/ref=asc_df_0648154521?mcid=4f50e58863e23cc9bff9cd708bb93084&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697323391178&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3967307359554161200&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006502&hvtargid=pla-716807874168&psc=1&hvocijid=3967307359554161200-0648154521-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →