Podcast
Messy Social Work
Hosted by Messy Social Work · EN
Welcome to the Messy Social Work podcast. The hosts are Richard Devine and Tim Fisher.
Check out our website here: https://www.relationalactivism.com/
38episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Rich and Tim speak to Maddy McCormack (Social Worker) on the realities of Child Protection Social Work
2w ago00:56:11Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we speak with Maddy McCormack, a social worker early in her career, about the realities of stepping into practice with children and families.Maddy reflects on her route into the role, what day-to-day social work actually looks like, and what she’s had to learn beyond training to be effective in her first year. We explore how she builds relationships with young people and their families, especially in contexts of risk, conflict, and uncertainty.She speaks candidly about the emotional demands of the work — including doubt, moral distress, and the cases that stay with you — and how this can shape thinking and practice under pressure.We also discuss what helps her stay relational when things are tough, what sustains her in the role, and the moments that remind her why the work matters.An honest conversation about learning on the job, staying human, and the emotional weight of social work.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to Sharon Shoesmith about Baby P, blame and learning from tragedies
3w ago01:10:34Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we sit down with Sharon Shoesmith to revisit one of the most defining and contentious moments in modern child protection: the case of Baby P, and the national reaction that followed.Sharon reflects candidly on what it meant to become the focus of public anger—labelled, scrutinised, and ultimately removed from her role—despite leading a service that had been judged as “good” by Ofsted. We explore the personal toll of that experience and the powerful social and political forces that demand accountability in the wake of tragedy.Drawing on psychoanalytic and social theory, the conversation moves beyond headlines to examine how society processes—and often avoids—the reality of harm to children. We discuss the idea of social workers as “containers” for collective anxiety, the “pain of knowing” about abuse, and why narratives of professional failure can feel easier to accept than confronting human cruelty within families.We also interrogate the enduring legacy of the Baby P case: the rise of “never event” thinking, the political promise of certainty, and how fear has shaped systems that prioritise compliance over meaningful risk management.Along the way, Sharon challenges assumptions about gender and harm, reflects on what remains unlearned, and offers a clear-eyed perspective on leadership in conditions defined by uncertainty.This is a thoughtful, at times uncomfortable conversation about blame, denial, grief, and what it really means to safeguard children in a complex world.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim introduce Systemic Ideas in Social Work with student Natasha Dube and author Liz Bosanquet
4w ago01:22:09Tap to summarizeIn this episode of the Messy Social Work podcast, we begin with a conversation with Natasha Dube, before Rich and Tim discuss Liz Bosanquet’s new book, Systemic Social Work Practice. The discussion explores how systemic ideas can move beyond theory and into everyday practice, helping practitioners think relationally about families, organisations and the wider systems shaping people’s lives. A conversation about curiosity, context, relationships and what systemic practice looks like in the reality of social work.Link to Book https://uk.jkp.com/products/systemic-social-work-practiceRelational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss time management (Part 2)
4w ago00:45:23Tap to summarizeIn this second bonus episode, Rich, Tim and Charlotte build directly on Part 1, turning their attention to the four remaining ideas from Rich’s blog on resilience in social work and exploring how these play out in practice.The conversation moves beyond individual productivity and into the ethical and emotional costs of working under sustained pressure. Drawing on Vikki Reynolds’ work, the episode explores burnout not as a personal failing, but as a response to spiritual pain, moral distress and ethical trespassing – the harm that occurs when social workers are repeatedly required to act against their values within constrained systems.Together, they reflect on how time pressure, risk management and organisational demands can quietly erode meaning, solidarity and hope, and why self‑care alone is never enough. Instead, the focus shifts to collective ethics, justice‑doing, and mutual accountability, asking what helps social workers remain human, connected and sustainable in the work.The episode closes with a reframing of resilience – not as coping better alone, but as finding ways to work in solidarity, uphold shared values, and resist the pull towards isolation, cynicism or burnout in systems that are often set up to make ethical practice hard.Vicki Reynolds: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Doing-Intersections-Power-Vikki-Reynolds/dp/0648154521/ref=asc_df_0648154521?mcid=4f50e58863e23cc9bff9cd708bb93084&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697323391178&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3967307359554161200&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006502&hvtargid=pla-716807874168&psc=1&hvocijid=3967307359554161200-0648154521-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim discuss time management ideas that DEFINITELY & FINALLY allow you to get on top of your work
May 101:00:29Tap to summarizeThis episode explores time management as both a practical challenge and a lived experience in social work. Rich shares techniques such as Stephen Covey’s urgent and important quadrants, Cal Newport’s time blocking and the difference between deep and shallow work, while also being honest about how difficult these are to sustain in real practice. The conversation moves into presence, stress and pragmatism, recognising that social workers are often pulled between statutory timelines, emotional labour, family needs and constant interruptions. Tim brings in Barbara Adam’s work on time and temporality, alongside Shakespeare’s “time is out of joint”, to describe how stress can alter our experience of time. The episode ends with the idea that time management is not only about productivity, but about how we remain present, realistic and human in demanding systems.Drawing FuturesBarbara Adam and Seth Oliverhttps://graffeg.com/products/drawing-futures?srsltid=AfmBOorYwNJGBZKMmdWO1VEy2_b7YP2ZiTSzlXNqHfxBM8byjHNQAJVb...............Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling (Part Two)
Apr 2700:46:05Tap to summarizeThis bonus episode picks up where the previous conversation left off. Rich and Tim return to six years of journals to explore the next three themes that emerged — the ones that didn’t fit neatly, resolve cleanly, or offer easy lessons.They begin with work and purpose, tracing how Rich’s journals reveal a constant back‑and‑forth: ambition and exhaustion, pride and resentment, meaning and burnout. They talk about the pressure to have impact, the cost of carrying work into every corner of life, and what it’s like to slowly admit that a role you can do well may no longer be one you want — or can — sustain.The conversation then shifts to habits, routines, and distraction. Rich reflects on years spent building systems to hold himself together — morning routines, fasting windows, time‑blocking, strict rules around focus — and how fragile those systems were in the face of poor sleep, stress, or emotional overload. Together they explore the pull of distraction, the fantasy that the “right” routine will finally work, and the fatigue that comes from constantly trying to out‑discipline your own mind.Finally, they turn to gratitude and meaning, and the complicated way both appear in the journals. Rather than gratitude as calm or resolved, Rich describes it as something tangled up with anxiety, guilt, fear of time passing, and the effort to notice life while struggling inside it. They talk about how meaning shows up not as insight or philosophy, but in ordinary, fleeting moments — often noticed only because they feel at risk of being lost.As with the first episode, this isn’t a story about transformation or self‑improvement. It’s about repetition, negotiation, softening, and the slow realism that comes from paying attention over time. A conversation about work that matters and costs something, habits that don’t hold, gratitude that isn’t peaceful, and the ongoing effort to live alongside yourself rather than fix yourself.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling
Apr 2400:59:44Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Rich and Tim sit down with six years of personal journals and ask a simple but uncomfortable question: what actually changed?They focus on the first three themes that stood out when Rich reread everything back.First, Rich reflects on the long arc of his mental health — how early journal entries framed exhaustion, irritability and low mood as problems of discipline, productivity, or personal failure, and how long it took before he had the language to name depression honestly. They talk about what it’s like to believe gratitude should cancel out sadness, and how learning to recognise patterns didn’t remove the cycles, but did change Rich’s relationship with them.Second, they explore the gradual shift toward meditation and presence. Not as a neat self‑improvement story, but as something that moved from a ten‑minute experiment to a genuine anchor during darker periods. Rich talks about letting go of meditation as something to “get right”, the impact of retreat, and how presence started showing up in ordinary moments rather than on the cushion.Third, the conversation turns to the body — food, exercise, fasting, running — and the years spent negotiating, arguing, and struggling for control. Rich shares what the journals reveal about shame, compulsion, relief, pride, and how physical routines were often attempts to regulate much deeper emotional states. They reflect on what softened over time, even when the patterns themselves didn’t disappear.This isn’t an episode about fixing yourself, forming perfect habits, or finding a breakthrough. It’s about noticing repetition, learning the difference between control and acceptance, and what six years of writing things down can teach you about how you actually live with yourself.The Interlacement of Violence: Three Temporalities of Violence in Everyday Lifehttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/00380385251343490Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to Psychotherapist, Jamie Crabb on suffering, care, and staying with what we don’t yet understand.
Apr 1600:59:14Summary readyIn this episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined by therapist and writer Jamie Crabb to explore his powerful article Care, and Being Seen in the Presence of the Enigmatic.Jamie reflects on what care really asks of us when things don’t make sense—when distress can’t be easily named, understood, or fixed. Drawing on his own experience of the care system, his therapeutic work, and psychoanalytic ideas, we talk about what it means to be “seen” when what is being communicated is embodied, relational, and often uncomfortable.The conversation moves through themes of care that falters, the temptation to explain or tidy away distress, and the quieter, harder work of staying present. We discuss how experiences that are not held can travel across time, how care messages land in the body, and why being seen is never neutral.This is an episode about resisting quick interpretations, tolerating uncertainty, and thinking more honestly about care as something felt between people rather than delivered through technique. As ever, it’s messy, thoughtful, and rooted in real lives rather than neat answers.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
SummaryRich and Tim speak to Janet Kay OBE about her experiences as a social worker, adoptive parent and kinship carer
Apr 201:16:54Tap to summarizeJanet Kay is a prominent kinship carer, trustee for the charity Kinship, and OBE recipient who advocates for families in England raising relatives' children. Based in Sheffield, she has cared for her grandson since he was 18 months old, advocating for better financial and practical support, and overcoming the "dump and run" lack of resources for caregivers. Key Aspects of Janet Kay's Work and Experience:Advocacy: She serves on the Independent Review of Children's Social Care's Experts by Experience Board and works to raise awareness of the 200,000+ children in kinship care.Background: Formerly a social worker and lecturer, she retired early to care for her grandson.Support & Recognition: She highlights the urgent need for legal, financial, and emotional support for kinship carers, who often face "invisible" challenges and limited resources.Campaigning: She works with the charity Kinship to support carers and helps set up local peer support groups in Sheffield.Honours: She was awarded an OBE in the New Year's Honours for her services to kinship care. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Transcribe →Rich and Tim speak to Professor Jonathan Scourfield on what the largest-ever Family Group Conference study reveals
Mar 2701:15:19Tap to summarizeProfessor Jonathan Scourfield is a leading UK academic in social work, currently based at Cardiff University. His work spans child welfare, social care inequalities, suicide and self‑harm research, and working with men across the life course This one https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6079816tests if participation quality (i.e., how well families said their voice was heard) was linked to outcomes and finds that yes it was, though not for all outcomes we measured. This paper https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/s7f8g_v1 compares FGCs at three stages of the child welfare process and finds no differences among them, which is good news for promoting their use more broadly, not just for families with a child protection plan or in pre-proceedings. (the proviso being that not all outcomes improve after FGCs, but you wouldn’t really expect them to).Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
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