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- [00:00]
A
Please welcome to the stage, Olivier Award nominee Fabien Aloise. Hello. Thank you for joining us. So this is very exciting because I'm sure almost all of you in this room have seen Fabian's work on stage. Who saw the Olivier Award winning revival of Sunset Boulevard? Who saw the SpongeBob SquarePants on tour? I've already asked that question. Who saw Evita? Regent's Park, Open Air Theatre, Much Ado About Nothing at Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, all of the aforementioned and more.
- [00:39]
B
They're very expensive tickets. I'm very impressed.
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A
Which, I mean, it's amazing, though, because just thinking of those productions, it's very different styles, it's very different types of choreography. It speaks to the exciting work that you do, but also the breadth of it at the same time. And I want to dig into those influences a little bit, because I know you worked with Anne Reinking sort of in the Fosse world.
- [01:04]
B
I did. I was in one of the original companies of Fosse that toured Europe and Japan, and I was, as I call it, second bowler hat from the left. And then she kind of picked me out of the ensemble and started to work with me on a solo. And I remember her saying, you know, you need to step forward more in life because no one's going to give you anything if you don't ask for it. But that was just never in my nature at the time. I was just very happy to be in the room. And then later on, she said, I'd love for you to stay another year. What can I give you? And I said, well, I want to work closer to you. So she made me her associate. And then we ended up kind of setting up companies around the world, and I started to work with the likes of Bonnie Langford and Ruthie Henshaw and Ben Vereen, Bibi Newworth, and just kind of became engrossed in that whole family of Fosse people.
- [01:59]
A
Yeah. This is always something that intrigues me about choreographers because the transition traditionally is from a dancer first as a background. But I'm curious at what point that muscle starts to itch, where you start to want to be more creatively involved. What was the journey like for you, going into choreography and knowing that was something you wanted to do?
- [02:21]
B
Anning always said that I was going to be a choreographer, and at the time I was in my early 20s, and I said, no, that's not what I want to do. I want to be in the spotlight, I want to be on stage. So I kind of didn't see it for the compliment that it was. I just kind of thought this is. Are you trying to say that I'm not good as a dancer? Which is not at all what she was saying. I think she just recognized something in me at that young age. But then when I moved to London, I started to get passed around from choreographer to choreographer, and I got to be Arlene Phillips associate first, and then Karen Bruce and then Peter Darling. And so I started to learn from all of them. And as an associate, you get sort of the best job because you get paid a lot of money to go and do their work and keep their work clean and represent them. But if the show's not successful, it's not your fault, because they're the ones that are in the line of fire. So you kind of have this, like, protective barrier. And it became a very comfortable place to live in. And then I remember someone asking me, do you ever want to do this? And at the time I just thought, well, when it's. When it's my turn, I guess I will. And. And they said, well, when's that going to be? And then I just kind of. That got me paranoid and kind of panicky because I was like, when is that going to be? So I was very lucky to premiere a company of working at Southwark Playhouse, which was kind of my first foray into choreography on my own. And then I gave myself three years to just establish myself, see if it was something that I was going to be able to do, if I was going to be successful. And knowing that I could always fall back onto being someone's associate because I knew I was good at that. And then people started to like my work. And then I met Jamie Lloyd and, you know, we became very close friends and collaborators, and that was it. I was hooked. I wanted to do it.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah. So you and Jamie now have this incredible creative relationship. Was Evita the first.
- [04:28]
B
The very first time I worked with Jamie Lloyd was at the 24 hour musical.
- [04:32]
A
Oh, sure, yeah, yeah.
- [04:33]
B
And I was. I. I had been working on Matilda for many a year, and I was in the canteen and I was just there offering my services to anyone that needed movement or choreography for the day. And he came down to the canteen and said, I need a choreographer and you're not allowed to work with anyone else because my story is about dance. So he took me into the studios and I spent the better part of 24 hours with him, and we just started to hit it off right away. And he asked me right then and there, do you want to do movement direction on Plays. He was doing a lot of plays back then. And anyone that's ever worked at Matilda knows that it's a 24 hours, seven day a week kind of job. So I wasn't able to do anything. But then when I decided to leave Matilda, I sent him a little clip of something that I had choreographed on the back of the stalls, and it was like a UK tour of our house. And I sent him baggy trousers and I just whatsapped to him and he said, can you meet me at Paddington Station in three hours? And I just thought, this seems so like James Bond of him. So I ended up at Paddington Station three hours later. And he was sat there and we were having a coffee and he said, do you know Evita? And I was like, I'm gay and I love Madonna. So, yeah, and then we hit it off and. Yeah, and then that was our first kind of proper working together as co collaborators on that.
- [06:05]
A
Was it thrilling to get to take a show and because of the perspective you two both built on it and kind of divorce it from any previous dance language associated with it. Because with Evita, with Sunset, it's such, visually speaking, different interpretations of the show, is that really satisfying to get to do?
- [06:26]
B
Yes. I love working with Jamie on musicals like this because we have a very similar way of looking at a piece. We deconstruct it completely and reanalyze it whilst still knowing that we have to pay homage to what it was. So there's always a sort of reverence and respect to what it first was in its first incarnation. But we always strive to make the piece for a new generation that has never seen that and what would it mean to that generation? What kind of influences do we. Can we pull from to kind of get them into the narrative of the story? And so with that, you know, especially with Evita, we started to question what was an icon. You know, Eva Perron was an icon. Ironically, the musical made her more famous around the world than she actually, actually was as the first lady of Argentina. And so that in itself kind of caused us to rethink. Okay, so who. Who is that today? And at the time, we were both obsessed with Beyonce's homecoming, so we thought Beyonce's an icon. And. And Jamie had this amazing idea of kind of developing the. The homecoming stairs into kind of like the steps of the Casa Rosada. And we just thought like, this is. This is a really good way to start and to kind of force the audience to see someone that can own those stairs, you know, and everything just developed out of that.
- [07:58]
A
Yeah. But the way. And we had Mason Alexander park here last month, giving us an extraordinary insight into the way that the Jamie Lloyd Company shows are built. It's around the artists who are in the room and it's sort of devised through discovery and through a creative playground of sorts. And so with Evita coming back to the London Palladium, who has tickets? Good people. Good people. Yeah. There's at least four. There you go. With Evita coming back to the London Palladium with a different company, we've heard that it might be inspired by, but presumably is going to be in many ways a very new production, an evolution of that production at the very least.
- [08:36]
B
I think we've all evolved. Evita at the park was done in 2019. The world went into chaos soon after. We all went a little bit stir crazy and some of us went a little bit crazy. And then we've all come out, I think, different. And I think that even as artists, I know I've evolved. I can't speak for everyone on the creative team, but I feel like we all have become different artists. And I think it's such an amazing opportunity to relook at what we loved about the production, but also what we would want to change, or maybe we get a second chance at doing that number differently or approaching it differently. I think it's inevitable that it's going to look a little bit similar because the DNA doesn't change. I'm choreographing it, Jamie's directing it, Alan Williams is looking after the music, Sutra's designing. So there are very similar creatives on board. But. But I think our approach is going to be gonna be different, especially after the success of Sunset as well.
- [09:42]
A
Yeah. Which we have to talk about, because I'm obsessed with that production. A lot of other people are as well. It's been this really staggering thing. It was huge here in the West End. It's enjoying a lot of success over on Broadway. Is it your Broadway choreographing Pritzker?
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B
My Broadway debut? Yeah.
- [10:01]
A
Amazing. Yeah, amazing with everything. I mean, it's such a different world over there with everything else that comes into it. With the opening nights of it all and the scale of it all and awards season being a thing that's happened. Is that on your radar when that's happening, or are you trying not to think about it?
- [10:19]
B
I try not to think about it, but it slaps you in the face every two minutes because that's all they talk about over there. And it's a Different world over there. And I had worked in and out of New York when I worked with Ann Reinking, but it was on a different level, and it was a different time. And I think it's just getting to New York for the first time. And my. My associate and I were living in the same building, and it felt like a dream come true, but in, like, the most vibrant colors, you know, and it's just so. It's like there's no. There's no comparing it to another city. You know, London is already this incredibly vibrant city, and New York just makes London look sleepy, you know?
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A
So call it the city that sleeps. Yeah.
- [11:02]
B
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, we're very lucky that New York embraced us as much as London did. We made the show in that one summer because Jamie had a fever dream that he wanted Nicole Schertzinger to be Norma Desmond. And I remember when he asked me, you know, I want you to do this, my first statement was, great, yeah, what am I gonna do? You know, it's not a big dance show. And. And then he told me some of his concepts, some of his ideas, and I realized I was going to have to use the choreography to narrate and navigate through the story. And then I became obsessed with the video and working with Joe and Nathan, I became a total nerd about what's being displayed on the camera. And it just became like this labor of love, this constant labor of love. So when. When we opened in London, you know, we were all kind of sitting there, not breathing, waiting to see what the audience. We knew that we had created something special, but we didn't. We didn't know if it was going to resonate with everybody or with anybody. And then when we had that reaction, it was like, oh, wow. We just kind of, like, exhaled together and. And then bringing it to New York and just expecting it to be the same is just. It doesn't work that way. You know, there's so many London born shows that don't work in Manhattan and vice versa. There are so many American shows that just don't work here. And so we were. We were very fortunate that New York embraced us. And it's a big hit there.
- [12:32]
A
Yeah. There are so many visually striking moments involving choreography. Do you have a particular favorite part of the show, or does it change? I'm a big fan of Norma sprinting backwards and forwards across the stage in the big red section. You grew up in the sidebar. Question. Canada via Australia.
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B
No, I grew up in Australia via Canada.
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A
Australia via Canada.
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B
What did I Say, yeah, which one do you want me to answer first?
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A
No, my point was going to be there's something we have over here in P.E. lessons called the bleep test. Did you have that? Where is that something? Was that known to you culturally?
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B
No, I was in ballet class. We didn't do bleeps.
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A
I wish I was in ballet class. Listen, that's where I wish I was. But it's essentially this thing where they make you sprint backwards and forwards from either side of the room until they've figured out who all of the gay kids are. That was my experience. And that, in the best possible way, reminds me a little bit every time I see that brilliant moment in Sunset Boulevard. But then also all of the car chase stuff at the beginning and all of the ensemble moments. There's so many great parts.
- [13:42]
B
I mean, I do have a. Like, I love it all. You know, I love the way the ensemble does it. I love the way the company embraces it every night. But I think probably my favorite favorite is working with Hannah and developing the character of young Norma. So that was. That was really special. I had worked with Hannah before on another production of Cabaret at the Lido, and. And I knew that she had to do this as soon as Jamie and I were talking about this character. And I said, I know someone. I know someone that can do this.
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A
She's mesmerizing.
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B
Yeah, she has this incredible hypnotic quality. And when I started to basically bastardize movements that I had developed with Nicole on her face and pull it apart and kind of have Hannah embody it, I just became, like, obsessed with what she was able to do. And I was like, okay, now do that upside down. I do a crawling. Now do it rolling on the floor. You know, I think we've kind of exhausted everything that she could do. So by the end of the show, you know, all she has to do is walk. And she was like, do I do anything? I was like, just walk, babe. You've just done. You've done it all. You've done it all. But, yeah, I think that's probably my. My favorite moment to. To work with. But I do love everything. I think let's do Lunch is one of. It's, you know, it's like Tetris, and I love that. And I don't think. Well, I know the audience likes watching it, but it is. It is a bastard to put together because it's literally, if one of those ensemble members are not on their marks, they collide in with someone else, and everything just happens all after each Other. And it's quite amazing when they finally pull it together and they're able to run it.
- [15:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then fast forward all the way to Much Ado About Nothing at Theatre Royal Drury Lane, which I loved so much. It was so joyous with the way that you and Jamie build these shows. Did you know exactly what the end outcome was going to be? Or was there a moment when it was like, okay, we're going in like a very vibrant disco direction?
- [15:50]
B
I think we knew that it was going to be joyous because the play is joyous. But I think Jamie was able to kind of stretch his legs on this one because he's. The thing is, Jamie's an incredibly fun person and he's incredibly fun to work with in the studio. And with this one, I think you combine that with what I could bring to the table, movement wise, with a whole bunch of pink confetti and an inflatable heart, and it's like, it's just gonna look like a dance party. And we're very close in age, so we grew up with similar. Listening to similar dance music. And so I would bring in some music every morning and I would warm up the company and it would always be to some 90s track. And we decided that that song's gotta go in the show and, oh, that song's gotta go into the show. And then obviously Tom Hiddleston would come in and he'd be like, I've got a playlist, I'd like to play it. And working with Tom just made it. And Hailey, I mean, the two of them, it was just like dancing every day and having fun. And I know Tom went on Graham Norton at one point and was bragging about how much dancing there was, and he came in the next day and I was like, we have to put in so much dancing now, Tom, you know, like, you've done this to me. But it was just. It was. Honestly, it was probably the most fun I've ever had in a studio. It was great. It was really great.
- [17:13]
A
Yeah, that came up. We were all having fun with that product. The ushers were having fun and that was amazing. Looking back over your brilliant, varied career, is there a particular show that you worked on that you would like for all the casting directors watching via the live stream who we already said hello to, is there a show that you would love to get brought back in some capacity?
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B
One of my shows? Yeah.
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A
Because I'd love to see Bring it on again.
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B
Bring It On. I mean, that. Yeah.
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A
I didn't get the life that it.
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B
Omicron stole our life.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I think Bring it on was. Did anyone see it?
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A
Yeah, South Bank Center.
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B
Yeah, it was two weeks. So I think we. None of them were. Were cheerleaders. Well, actually, that's a lie. We had one person in the company that had done cheerleading, and so we taught them all how to do cheerleading. But I remember at the beginning, I was like, I don't want it to just be pom poms and step ball changes. I said, you know, cheer had just started to play on Netflix, and I was like, I want that we have to do that level. So we trained them up. So by the time we opened at the south bank, we had people that had never done any sort of stunting at all or basing or flying or anything like that doing all of it. And I think one of the proudest moments was watching Cross the Line, which is the very last Jackson number, and every single stunt landed, and the audience just stood up on its feet. And it was amazing to me because this is a show that nobody knows in this country, really. And they were applauding and they were on their feet not because of an expectation or out of reverence or respect for something that they had heard a million times, but because these guys just killed it on the stage, and. And they deserved it, and it was amazing. And I just. I kind of wish that they had had an opportunity to have more audiences like that, but, you know, it is what it is. But, yeah, that's a good one to come back.
- [19:19]
A
I think it was a great show. It was a great. I cried at the end of Bring it on at the South bank center, and I was, am I crying at this cheerleading musical? What's happening to me right now? But it was lovely. And, of course, you were a co director on the wonderful Kathy and Stella Solver murder.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
Who saw that show?
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B
Yeah. That was like three. Three and a half years of development, and that was another labor of love. I mean, I'd never been to the Edinburgh fringe before. I'd never had the opportunity. Not that I didn't want to go. And now I'm obsessed with it. And I can see why everyone makes such a big deal out of it, because it's just. It's just magical. But John Britton had asked me to do movement direction on this musical that him and Matthew had written in lockdown, and it was just going to be in the round, and that's all we knew. And so they needed to move. And I was like, I don't know who these People are. I've never worked with them before. It turns out when I got there, I was like, oh, I know you. I know you. But in order to get them to move, I just thought, okay, well, I don't know what you can do, so just sit in this wheelie chair. We're going to just figure it out. Because I thought, at least the chair is going to move. And then John kind of started to watch me working with Bronte and Bex and was like, okay, keep going, keep going. And I was like, no, this is the scene. This is. And he's like, no, no, keep going, keep going. The scene's short. The scene's short. And I was like, okay. And then by the end of that process, he was like, I want you to direct this. I want you to direct this. And I was like, oh, it doesn't feel like my comfort zone. And I think within the span of the three years, it kind of became something that I realized I could do. And so, yeah, so I ended up kind of accepting the director title and just going with it. And I loved it. I loved it.
- [21:14]
A
Yeah. And it was a great show. And watching it develop from. I think I saw every iteration that ended up happening and watching it turn into what it was, was so exciting. So that can come back as well if there's all the. Many producers watching this right now on Easter Sunday evening. Final question for you, because we talk a lot about actors with dream roles. Is there a show that you would love the opportunity to choreograph at some point in the future in some capacity?
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B
I don't know.
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A
It can be something that doesn't necessarily, like a different way of doing Chicago as an example, because the version that we see is so iconic.
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B
It's really tricky. I'm going to. I don't want to steal Lou's answer, Louis's answer, but I do think new stuff is really, really exciting. And whilst I love deconstructing and reinventing revivals, and I think I know how to do that, I think there's something really cool about giving audiences new material. And so I think that's something that I would love to dive into more of, because there's also. There's no sort of, oh, that was different to the original that, you know, there's always an expectation that when people come to see a show that you've reinvented, oh, you did it like that. And I think it's cool if you can just do something that they can't compare it to. And the thing is this. The really good shows that I love. It's really difficult for me to go. I want to choreograph that because it's kind of in my eyes. It's kind of perfect the way it is. You know what I mean? Like the, the Chicago's or the sweet charities or the Pippins and you gotta, they're all, they're amazing. Why would I want to make that better, you know? So, yeah, I think I'm gonna stick with the new. New stuff. New stuff.
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A
Good answer.
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B
Good answer.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah. So if people could write lots of new musicals, that would be fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us here at Mickey Joe theatre live. It's been so interesting hearing what you have to say. Thank you so much. For 10 more seconds, I'm Mickey Jo theater. Oh my God. Hey, thanks for watching stagey day. Subscribe.