Lesley Manville (5:51)

Stop it. It never used to happen. It was rife. I've just come back from Broadway where I did Oedipus. Virtually the whole audience will take out their phone at the end of the evening. Why can't they let it live in their souls for five minutes? But it's like people need to take a photo of the curtain call to prove that they've seen it. You don't have that so much in the uk, but it's starting to filter in and I feel so strongly about it. So now there's an announcement before the beginning of the play. So people don't just have to look at a sign and ignore it. They're actually hearing a voice saying, please do not take photographs. Come on, it's theater. Let's preserve. Let's take the digital out of it just for a moment. We're all in this room. We're telling you a story. You're listening. Clap or don't clap, but don't just stick up your phone in our faces. It's. Since I find it insulting.

Micky Jo (6:56)

Okay, so some bold things said there and I have thoughts about seven or eight different statements within that that we need to discuss. I should clarify that the reason this is being talked about at all on the radio. This didn't come from nowhere is because Leslie, I believe, didn't necessarily audibly chastised, but may have stared daggers at an audience member who was taking photographs during a curtain call of a preview performance of Les Liaison Dangereuses at the National Theatre. And there has since been, as she mentioned there, an announcement implemented prior to the production that clarifies that people are not permitted to take photos or create video recordings. I will say I really hope that that announcement clarifies, including the show's curtain call, because there is far too much ambiguity about when people are and aren't allow to photograph. And I think the best announcements are the ones that explicitly say, please do not do this until the curtain call. Because a lot of people think they can't film the curtain call because they simply see a sign that says no filming, no recording equipment. When that only really refers to the bulk of the performance. Sometimes that does refer to the curtain call as well. But because they've been to other shows where you can film the curtain call, people don't know. So we're at a point where this has become common enough and where we're all carrying around high definition recording devices on our person, which obviously didn't used to be the case. And that's part of why this has shifted in recent years. We need, I think, explicit instructions about the curtain call in addition to the performance, the announcement, and I think there should be an announcement, needs to be. This is the plan, this is the rule, and this is the situation for the curtain call. So the best announcements are the ones often musicals that say, please don't film during the performance until the curtain call, when we'd love you to get your phones out if you want to. And there are some shows that lean into this. There are some shows that have benefited from it in their marketing. But we're going to talk about all of that for now. Let's go back to Lesley Manville's comments. And I saw her on Broadway in Oedipus. I also saw her performance in that play here in the West End. I can't recall the proportion of each audience who took photos and filmed during the end, but certainly when I saw the play on Broadway, I was among them. I was there filming with a camera. Maybe I still have footage. And we can hear the sound of, as she puts it, almost everyone taking photos and not applauding. Let's cut to that clip right now. If I have it. For the most part. And I go to the theater an awful lot, very often on press night performances, very often at regular performances, there is almost always still thunderous applause. The only occasions when there is not enough sound being produced by an audience is when the audience is very small to begin with. Usually on those occasions, I will Forego filming the curtain call, because I'll look around and realize if I don't clap, we're losing like 10 to 20% of the sound. But for the most part, there are enough people within an auditorium, especially large houses, that you won't necessarily notice the difference. You're still going to have a wall of thunderous ovation at the end. And before I forget to mention it, I will say that you almost see more of it at press night performances. And very often, although this is kind of just anecdotal, some of the most eager people to take a photo during a curtain call or sometimes during the performance when they ought not to be, are family and friends of the people on stage. Anyway, let me go back to some of the other things that she said. So she was talking about doing Oedipus on Broadway, and that's a play without an intermission. That is a play which is incredibly intense. So it's this very cathartic release at the end of the whole thing. She says specifically, why can't they let it live in their souls for five minutes? And I would argue the that that particular play and her performance reverberates in our souls for something like 100 uninterrupted minutes prior to the curtain call, at which point the immersion is broken, the storytelling is over, and people want to, in whatever way they feel is appropriate, celebrate and remember this thing that they just witnessed. Also, and I'm going to get to her comparison between Broadway and West End audiences in just a moment. But we should also acknowledge that the ticket price on Broadway, the average ticket price is going to be significantly higher, certainly for this production relative to its West End, the Broadway average ticket price was higher. So it's hard to chastise an audience for when they are allowed to do so, finding some way to retain a memory of what could be a very expensive experience. She even goes on to say it's like people need to take a photo of the curtain call to prove that they've seen it. And I think for a lot of people, it's a memento. It's a memory for them so that they can recall seeing it. On Broadway, you get a playbill that's complimentary, you can keep your ticket stub. But certainly when you've seen an actor who has moved you on stage, or perhaps you've seen seen a celebrity on stage, then a lot of people would prefer to have a visual reminder of that. Maybe fewer people feel the need to go and get signatures at the stage door afterwards. And so to some actors, this would be preferable to be photographed or filmed at this point during the bows rather than at the stage door. But I dare say, because there is no one monolithic attitude towards this, different actors will have different feet

Alex Abnos (12:18)

Immersing Yourself in all things Soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports Editor from the Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, the Guardian brings you in depth World cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try on the Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this,

Micky Jo (12:57)

well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay.

Alex Abnos (13:07)

Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on the Move Expert analysis, the Guardian bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

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Micky Jo (14:02)

Killings. Now she subsequently says that this is a huge thing on Broadway and it's starting to filter over over here to the uk And I don't think doing a play on Broadway and then doing a play at the National Theatre is particularly indicative of the two different habits because you're encountering different Audiences and if anything, a lot of the real propagation of curtain call filming arose with musicals like Six. Six was a huge one for boosting this as a practice when it was first making its way to the West End. Because there is a line, if you don't know, in Mega 6 finale at the end when they explicitly sing, get your phones out, you're gonna want to film this. And it became this amazing marketing tool for the show. I remember in the early days of Six refreshing what was then Twitter prior to it being a hellscape and looking for the Mega six from that performance. Oh, and if an understudy had gone on for the first time, forget about it. If somebody had debuted in a new track, if there was a new swing joining the show, maybe they'd gone on early. Everyone was refreshing waiting for that Mega six to drop a Cars Change performance. I remember being so excited when the North American production was going to open and I was like, we're going to get multiple Mega Sixes a day. Because I was still watching it every single day. That's how excitable a six the musical fan I was at the time, and I still am. And it's great to be able to see some version of the performances through the Mega Sixes. I know that the culture around them has become a little bit toxic and people do too much when it comes to judging certainly debuting and like first performance Queen by the Mega six clips when they haven't had that much time to really gel with the roles. But it's also a nice thing for a fandom to be able to have because there are a lot of shows where the only way to see the performances of the replacement cast is to buy a ticket and go and see it. Because for the majority of curtain calls, if they can be filmed, they're just kind of smiling and bowing, or in a Jamie Lloyd production, looking incredibly serious and bowing. Sidebar Question do we think he does that because it's still a part of the storytelling and the performance and therefore we ought not to be recording the curtain call. Does he do that for the aesthetics and the vibes explicitly, because he knows we are recording the curtain call. Also, this is the same man who sent Rachel Zegler out to perform on a balcony and had Tom Francis walking around the street knowing all of those things were going to be filmed outside the theater anyway, technically during the performance. So I don't think he really cares. Certainly not as much as Leslie Manville, who apparently cares more than any of us. Now, where did I get off the bus? Oh, Mega 6. So I remember the days of the Mega 6 and going to other musicals. And at the time there weren't that many shows where you could film the curtain call. It was still considered taboo. You weren't meant to film the curtain call. But because of six and the very visible impact that that had and the great marketing tool that it became, people seeing this fun show, people hearing like six different melodies from the score in like a 70 second clip, more shows wanted in on the action. I remember Waitress being another early implementer of this. They had signs that they held up at the front of the theater that said no filming. What? You can film the curtain call. And there was a little curtain call musical performance. Isn't it amazing? Welcome the way. And a couple of the shows followed suit. Years later, we have arrived at a place where it's possible to record the curtain calls of many productions and others. They now tell you that you explicitly can't. Interestingly enough, six the musical on Broadway for the longest time was one where you couldn't. But now you can because of technicalities that I think they arranged with the musicians union. Moulin Rouge is another one where technically in London I think you can't. On Broadway, I think they relaxed it when they were bringing in slightly more auspicious stunt casting. There was a time when you couldn't, then you could. In general, if you don't know and you would like to find out, my advice is always that you ask the ushers inside the theatre at that performance and they will give you. Unless it's a touring production, they will give you the best possible advice. Sometimes you can get into a slightly frustrating situation where a show actually wants you to film their curtain call, but that hasn't been communicated to everyone inside the building. But honestly, that's more of an influencer problem than anything else. Best port of call is just to ask an usher before the show and then you have your answer. Flashback to the one time I accidentally bootlegged the last two minutes of and Juliet because I was confidently told that I could start filming from the beginning of a certain song, which it turns out was not yet the end of the show anyway. It does seem to be more of a thing with musicals where they make make a choice about whether you can or can't film. Generally speaking, there's a little more to see, there's a little more to be performed with some sort of encore musical performances. In musicals, Hadestown is one. When they perform, we raise our cups. There was a time you couldn't film this on Broadway now you can. They've relaxed it. You can film it also in the West End. But there are also shows that prohibit you from recording for different reasons. There are a great many plays that don't necessarily acknowledge that audience members may want to film the curtain call. So they don't really say one way or another, which can be challenging. But there are some which prohibit curtain call filming for spoiler reasons, because there might be a final set reveal or a character revelation. Something else may happen that may be visible within the curtain call. Perhaps the cast is bigger or someone is acknowledged as playing a particular role by the end of the narrative. And you don't want spoilers for people who haven't seen it yet, so they're trying to hide that from view, which you got to respect. I'm reminded also of the Off Broadway musical Teeth and the costuming for the finale, which didn't feature explicit nudity, but did have the cast in some state of undress. And I believe it was for that reason that audience members were explicitly asked not to film the curtain call. And I've spoken about this before with bootleg recordings, especially of shows that have intimate scenes, because my biggest argument against bootlegs has been and continues to be the lack of performer consent. And arguably, in a curtain call, you run into the same problem. This is still filming or photographing people in their workplace without their specific consent, which is why it always feels better if it has been endorsed by the production or if there is a curtain call performance, and that is understood by all involved to be part of it, and they know that they're going to get filmed. Because ultimately, if Leslie Manville says she finds it rude and she doesn't want you to photograph her during the curtain call performance, I have to respect that. And I think the rest of us do as well, even if we don't necessarily agree with her opinions on it, because I don't actually think it's rude, objectively. But we'll get to that. My point is there is not one hard and fast rule for every single show. But I do think we are reaching a time when every show ought to have a clear policy. For some of them, that might be, feel free to film the curtain call. For others, it might be, yes, God, please do film the curtain call. I'm reminded of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Cinderella when they were like, please film it and then share it, and then tell everyone you know to buy tickets for some shows. And this is perfectly fine. It might be, we'd rather you don't film the curtain call, please kindly refrain. For others, it's absolutely do not, don't you dare. And needless to say, if a sticker has been put over your phone camera, they don't want you to film the thing. There's no ambiguity in that. But as I was originally saying some time ago, I actually think some of this behavior has traveled from the UK to the US it's just that Lesley Manville has done perhaps more commercial theatre in the US Than here in London.

Alex Abnos (21:39)

Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup, I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from the Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, the Guardian brings you in depth World cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try on the Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this,

Micky Jo (22:18)

well, I think the problem is if

Henrik (22:20)

you give footballers a inch, they will take a mile.

Micky Jo (22:22)

Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay.

Alex Abnos (22:28)

Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on the Move expert analysis, the Guardian bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more blueair Blue

Micky Jo (22:38)

Signature purifiers remove airborne pollutants so you can recover and sleep better. Peak performance isn't just built in the gym, it's built at home shop blueair.com official air care partner of the New York Knicks. Now she concludes her statement here by saying, come on, it's theater. Let's take the digital out of it for just a moment. And again, it's not just a moment. It's the entire duration of the performance for which people have been hopefully refraining from using their phones, refraining from taking pictures and participating in that moment of shared storytelling. And I agree, when it comes to the sanctity of that space and the values of that space, and I appreciate that so, so much. From my perspective, I think what is a little bit different, certainly in the way that I do it, because I am sharing These online. I'm sharing these in vlogs. I'm sharing these on a platform where I have an audience of enthusiastic, passionate theatre fans from around the world is sometimes. Not only can that curtain call video be helpful in reminding people that a show exists or generating a certain amount of intrigue. They see only some costumes, they see an actor on stage who they recognize, they think, oh, I wasn't aware that this was a thing that was happening. I'm constantly encountering curtain call footage and going, oh, what's this from? Oh, that's what that set looks like. Sometimes there's a little bit of a spoiler concern, but for the most part, it's an exciting and intriguing thing to to see. When I share these online, even though I feel sad that I'm not personally able to applaud, I like to think that it is in its own way allowing applause to take place for thousands or tens of thousands of people around the world. And the actors don't hear that in real time, but it also means that their performance is in some way remembered, is commemorated, is brought to people. There are some very special, very emotional, moving curtain calls I've been able to capture over the years, and I'm very glad that I have certainly a lot of opening performances, first previews, final performances, one night only events worth pointing out as well. And I have a very specific perspective on this. As someone who dedicates a lot of their time and energy trying to promote brilliant theatre and trying to help support and uplift theatre, it can be very hard to do that when there's so little of the experience that you can actually share with people if you're not going in and bootlegging the performance. Some theaters don't like you to even be holding a camera inside the building. Some of them get incredibly nervous about it and understandably so. So tonight I was at a theater in London where I thought the security guard was stopping me because I'd been filming the exterior and talking about the press night performance. I was about to go and watch and he asked me about the camera. I was like, here we go. Are they going to try and take it off me? Do I need to explain what I'm doing? Whatever. He just wanted a vlogging camera recommendation because he kind of knew the type I was using. Anyway, not the point. What I was saying is that there are so few things that audience members actually can share from a production. You can take that Playbill photo, you can use the often poorly linked IT photo op in the basement of the theater. You can try and take a photo outside, usually there's a line, usually there's traffic. But when there is a dynamic and compelling post show performance version of a curtain call, like a Mega six or an encore song, or even just the presence of these actors in gorgeous costumes on this set on stage, that's a really brilliant thing for you to be able to share online, for you to capture for yourself, certainly. But from my perspective, it's a really great tool for showing people what a production might look like and trying to share that infectious excited energy of actually seeing live theatre. Because otherwise there's. There's very few ways in which I can do that. It's hard to be a vlogger about going to the theater. It's way easier to do that at a theme park. It's easier to do that about almost anything else. Travel, vlogging, whatever. It's hard to be a vlogger about something that you explicitly can't film 95% of the time. So I would rather we were still able to film that last little 5%, less than 5%. And I recognize that I have been very anti bootleg, and people say this same thing about bootlegs, that not everyone has the geographical accessibility of going to theater or the financial affordability of going to the theater. It's expensive, it's in a specific place, it's hard to get to. And that's why some people advocate for filming during performances. I also have always said in response to this that no matter how we may try and capture it or cage it, theatre is always going to be this inherently ephemeral, temporary thing that we can't quite grip in our hands. It's always going to escape us. It's always about this moment that is shared, that passes as soon as it's arrived. And any picture snapped at a curtain call or any little video that you managed to get is only going to be the tiniest little souvenir. It's not going to be indicative of the greater meaning and connectivity of the entire experience. Which is why when I'm told I can't film a curtain call, it's also not the end of the world. And I appreciate as well, like I said, it is an actor's prerogative to say whether or not they feel comfortable being photographed or recorded in those final few moments of their time on stage. I also completely understand how a digital immigrant, that is to say someone who didn't grow up with technology, which is a digital native, would feel a little indifferent to the visual of all of these phones going up to film them in this moment of bowing, in this moment of real fourth wall, risen communion with the audience. I disagree that Leslie Manville really means this when she says clap or don't clap, but don't just stick up your phone in our faces. I actually think if people were to stand there en masse ass and not clap, or I guess sit down and not clap, they would find that to be more of an affront. The notion that she's like, don't clap if you don't want to, but how dare you pick up a phone. I think realistically the not clapping would be way worse. And yet she finds it insulting. And I don't think it's any huge injustice against the theatre goers at her performance that she does. I think she's entitled to that feeling. I feel a little differently, but I also will respect the rules of any particular theatrical space that I'm in. And I had a little scan through the comments section here and for the most part people are in agreement that it's no big deal to film during the curtain call. And perhaps the lady doth protest a little too much. I don't necessarily like the notion that theatre tickets are so expensive people should be entitled to retain whatever souvenir they like. I think that takes us into some very uncertain and dubious territory. Likewise, I don't necessarily think that we've reached a point where a sea of phones is going to preclude people in the row behind you being able to see the performance. If that's a problem in the curtain call, it's presumably been a height based problem the entire time as well. If they suddenly can't see past you, they're either refusing to stand up or perhaps unable to stand up, which is something we don't talk about enough when we talk about these standing ovations. We don't talk enough about wheelchair users who are suddenly blocked from that moment of communion and whose view of the stage is suddenly obscured. But generally speaking, and throughout the thousands of theatre going experiences that I've had, I have never witnessed an enormity of phones suddenly blocking the stage and these paparazzi like flashes. It simply doesn't happen. It doesn't currently happen. Anyway, who knows what will happen a few years in the future? Which is exactly why we need to, I think, have robust policies on this, on this new and very present aspect of, of theatre going at each theatre with the curtain call explicitly acknowledged and explained beforehand. In the meantime, if you find yourself at a performance where that doesn't happen. Like I said, feel free to ask a house manager or a front of House team member what is appropriate for you to do. One thing we do seem to know is that curtain call filming and photographs will not be permitted for the remainder of the run of Les Liaisons Dangereus at the National Theatre, and I hope that Lesley Manville and the company have a thoroughly positive experience. Experience. For now, I think that's everything that I have to say about the filming of Curtain Chords. If there's anything I've not mentioned or not addressed in this conversation, let me know in the comments down below and I can answer any questions or respond to any thoughts or counter arguments. Feel free to fight me in the comments. Leslie, if you're watching, loved you and Oedipus. And you know what, good for you for speaking your mind and advocating on behalf of act. In any case, thank you for listening to my thoughts. If you would like to hear more of what I have to say about the theatre industry worldwide, make sure to subscribe right here on YouTube or follow me on podcast platforms. Or if you would like to find out everything that I've been seeing each week, as well as everything I've been sharing on the Internet on various different social media platforms. The easiest way to do that is to sign up to my free weekly substack newsletter. You can get the link in the description of this video if I remember to put it there. Ironically, I'm often holding a camera and I'm surprisingly bad with technology. Anyhow, thank you as always. I hope that everyone is staying safe and that you have a stagey day for 10 more seconds. I'm Micky Jo Theatre oh my God. Hey, thanks for watching. Have a stagey day

Alex Abnos (31:50)

immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup. I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from the Guardian and whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary football weekly podcast the Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more

Micky Jo (32:19)

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Henrik (32:27)

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Micky Jo (32:57)

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