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MickeyJoTheatre
is stunt casting actually a good thing? | the truth about celebrities on Broadway & in the West End
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so it would seem as though we need to have a conversation about stunt casting on stage again. And I say this because I keep nearly talking myself into arguments in social media comments sections before I invariably come to the decision that that particular forum isn't the best way to express the nuanced and complicated thoughts that I have about this topic. And whenever I have objectively too much to say about something, this is where I end up. So put on your theatrical seatbelts and get ready for a conversation about what happens when we put celebrities on stage and why we're talking West End, Broadway and beyond as we consider recent stunt casting. Like Whitney Levitt in Chicago. If you don't know, she is one of the Mormon wives whose real lives are currently being explored by Disney. We're also going to talk about trained musical theatre performer and social media sensation Dylan Mulvaney joining the cast of six, the recently announced rotating King Herods in the upcoming West End return of Jesus Christ Superstar, Catherine Tate joining the UK production of O Mary, and the singer Nat Bass playing the role of Jenna in Waitress in Australia. Yes, stunt casting has made its way around the world, and so will today's conversation about it. And in addition to the obvious questions I'd like for us to consider, such as what exactly is stunt casting and for how long does it continue to be stunt casting and when isn't it stunt casting, I would also like for us to have a robust and conscientious conversation about why we are so determined that the alternative to that must be fresh, undiscovered new talent and whether that mindset is in fact a little bit toxic. So much for us to unpack as we proverbially tap step our way onto the landmine that is this potentially incendiary topic. But before we do. Oh my God. Hey. Welcome back to my theatre themed YouTube channel. Hello to those of you meeting me for the first time, as well as everyone listening to this on podcast platforms. My name is Micky Jo and I'm obsessed with all things theatre, hence why I have so much to say about it every day of my life. And if you want to hear everything that I have to say about the theatre industry worldwide, including all of my reviews as a critic, make sure you're subscribed here on YouTube or following me on podcast platforms. And if you're looking for the easiest way to stay up to date with everything that I say across the Internet, you can also subscribe my free weekly substack newsletter at the link in the description. And who knows, maybe if enough of you subscribe, I gained sufficient celebrity status that I too can be stunt cast in multiple different shows. Honestly, I'd be thrilled with a walk on role in Cats. Well, not walk, crawl on. Perhaps literally just across the back of the stage. Do not, do not expect me to dance. Anyway, for this to truly be a conversation, I need to hear what you are thinking. Let me know your thoughts in the comments section down below as we traverse each separate aspect of the world of stunt casting. Is it theatre's commercial lifeline or a morally wrong but necessary evil? Let's talk about it. So to begin with, then, let's make sure we're all on the same page of the script. What is and isn't stunt casting? Because the term has been thrown around for a good long while and I feel as though it is starting to get a little bit misused. I truly was just ready for my head to explode the other day when somebody described Cynthia Erivo's stage return to the West End as stunt casting casting in light of the fact that she had been in the Wicked movies which had boosted her profile. Regardless of the fact that prior to that she had made her name on the West End and Broadway stage and that, you know, she was a RADA trained actress with a Tony Award, for crying out loud. No, just because she's gone and done a film does not mean that Cynthia Erivo is now stunt casting. I think we need a different term for what this Is we talk about event theater. Maybe we need a word like this, whether it is event casting or commercial casting or star casting, but it's not necessarily the same thing. No. Stunt casting historically has been used more specifically for when performers or even non performers from outside of the traditional theatrical realm have been brought into productions in order to create a bit of a splash and sell more tickets and reach potentially a wider audience than that production otherwise would have. And it's a fairly self explanatory marketing decision. The show is struggling at the box office. What happens when we put in a singer or a soap star or a reality TV personality or a retired sports person and it often earns a negative reputation because perhaps unsurprisingly, those individuals are unlikely to give a better performance than trained theater actors, or should I say experienced theatre actors. Because as soon as we talk about training, we actually enter some fairly murky waters. A lot of the pop stars whose later in life stage segues have previously been described as stunt casting were actually, as it turns out, theater trained in their youth. It's just been a long time since they have been in a dramatic. They have been on stages perhaps for their entire life, singing and performing in front of a crowd, but they haven't necessarily played roles as actors. And there is something to be said for developing and maintaining the skill of live theater, which is this incredibly difficult thing to do as a performer. I really think there is nothing more challenging, especially than like a triple threat role in musical theater. The amount of different skills that you have to be able to deploy simultaneously, I mean, it's mind boggling. And what's interesting is you have some newcomers to that realm who are just brilliant and then there are others who have a theatrical background, but who haven't been on stage in years who don't necessarily seem as comfortable in their return. Thinking back to the Cynthia Erivo conversation though, one thing that I think we really ought not to do is to push back against the idea of actors who have moved away from the stage. Coming back to it. I'm reminded of what Hannah Waddingham said in an awards acceptance speech for her role on Ted Lass. Having broken out of the theater world as this veteran of the stage and made a name for herself and boosted her own profile on screen. And she took that opportunity, that large stage, to say West End musical theater actors need to be seen on screen more, advocating for her entire industry. And I think that's what we want ultimately. We want this to be a revolving door in the world of entertainment where stage actors have the opportunity to do more profile boosting and more lucrative screen work that can fit better around family commit. And if it is truly to be a revolving door, then I think we also have to be open to the idea of TV and film actors also making their way onto the stage. And usually that isn't the kind of stunt casting that people begrudge as much as non actors doing their first acting roles. And even then, there's something else I've been wondering about, which is when does stunt casting stop being stunt casting and start being just a career change? Because there are performers, let's say musicians, who don't have an acting background, who have never been on screen, who do theatrical training in their youth, who were never a child, Gavroche or anything, who have taken to the stage. Maybe they were in a UK tour of Priscilla Queen of the Desert. I promise I'm not thinking of anyone specific, even though it sounds like I am. But thereafter did another musical tour because they sold tickets and they performed well and they were reviewed well and they were popular with audiences and they enjoyed the experience. Let's say we're a decade down the line and they have continued to do a lot of pantomimes, various different touring musicals, maybe a West End credit, they have even done a play. At what point does that person just become a legitimate actor for having done a lot of roles? When does stunt casting stop being stunt casting? And also, who among us is even fit to determine who or what a legitimate actor is? I say this as someone who calls themselves a professional critic and endures a certain amount of pushback for that, but I don't think we can say that it's theatrical training. I don't think we should have to say like, well, actually they trained in their youth, or actually they went to RADA or Italia Conti or whatever prior to TV or social media success. Because there are plenty of brilliant stage performers who didn't do formal training and shouldn't be belittled because of that. I think inevitably the only barometer for their skill and success in a role is their performance. So the only time when it really makes sense to determine whether or not stunt casting has resulted in a good performance is after they've already made their way onto the stage to give one. And yet people are often quick to criticize casting like this before performances have even begun. And something that we hear a lot is that the role ought to have gone to the best person in the room and not simply the person with the biggest profile or the most Instagram Followers. And the problem that I have with this statement, this myth of the best person in the room, is that it's never really true. Not only is it, you know, the best person who actually managed to make their way into the room, who had representation and who was available to make the audition that day and who the casting director wanted to see and who could get themselves submitted for it. It's also whether they happen to be available, whether they hadn't booked another job, whether they gel with the creative team, whether they represented the best version of themselves at the audition, whether they make sense with the rest of the company and roles that may already be cast, whether they make sense for this particular iteration of the show that's happening. And honestly, whether they have the profile in order to be able to sell the thing if it's a big leading role that they're going to be playing. Those are nine different factors right there. Furthermore, you know, they're not racehorses. And the best person for a role, the best person in a room isn't quantifiable to an exact number of decimal places. It's a very different kind of an industry, one which inevitably will only survive by bringing in new audiences to the theater. Which brings us very nicely to some current examples of stunt casting around the world. Let us journey to some different stages and chat about some some.
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Just a hop, skip and a click away. And bot no better feeling than when everything just clicks. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. Celebrities. Now. One of the most notable examples of this currently, and I will call this stunt casting. I will call this unashamed stunt casting, is Whitney Levitt playing Roxie Hart in Chicago on Broadway. And I'm going to sound like I'm contradicting myself a little bit here because not too long ago I shared my thoughts about a return trip to Chicago on Broadway, where, unusually, all of the principal roles were being played by established veteran theater performers rather than the usual parade of celebrity names and personalities. And I said that the show was even great and better than usual. I feel like for the first time I was able to truly appreciate what this production of Chicago was built to be. In spite of those thoughts, which, of course, I stand by, I will celebrate Chicago's inclination to continue to cast celebrities A, I think it would have closed a long time ago if they didn't. But B, it also works somewhat with the tone of the show, particularly the character of Roxie Hart, who has this aspirational idea of not only performance, but particularly of celebrity. She wants to be famous at any cost. And so when they bring in celebrity personalities, it sort of allows the show to say even more about toxic, twisted, narcissistic celebrity culture in a very fun, self reverential way. Not only that, when they bring in people who are sort of scandal adjacent, then it works on multiple different levels. Now, Whitney seems to have been cast in the show on the back of her success on Dancing with the Stars, not unlike Ariana Maddox from Vanderpump Rules before her. They see these talented women doing really well in this dance competition and they think, oh, they would be brilliant stars of this show, much of the identity of which is connected to the world of dance. Even if Roxy specifically is really not that challenging a dance role. But from a marketing perspective, it makes sense. And the best casting moments happen when somebod brand overlaps with the brand of a show. If Whitney Levitt was going to be in a bug on Broadway at the Friedman Theatre, which would be a very different kind of a performance, I think people would still be showing up, but not perhaps as enthusiastically or to the same degree. And make no mistake, people are showing up. Chicago is doing great business. And like Ariana Maddox before her, she has already been booked in for a return engagement with the show. And reality TV breakout star seems to be Chicago's favorite new type of stunt casting. And they've really explored every avenue previously. I sort of can't believe that there is any discourse about Whitney and stunt casting in Chicago when it's Chicago, for crying out loud. When Wendy Williams has been in this show and before the final line of when you're good to mama added in her iconic talk show line, how you doin? For anyone to suggest that Fosse, who I will remind you, died before this production was even conceived, is rolling in his grave, is first of all not really paying enough attention to the way that Fosse liked to move. I don't think rolling would really be his response. And second of all, is willfully disregarding years of Chicago's Broadway history. Also, and we're going to get to this later, when people say Whitney is taking the opportunity away from a new undiscovered talent, when are they ever going to put a new undiscovered talent in the role of Roxie Hart? What underrepresented just got off the bus ingenue has ever been cast as Roxy in Chicago on Broadway. That isn't the way they cast. And make no mistake, if it wasn't Whitney Levitt or another celebrity, then it would be one of their brilliant veterans returning to the show. That is the way they operate. Anyway, we can't simply discuss Chicago. Let's talk about Dylan Mulvaney in six. Now, I've addressed this topic before already, but similarly, I want to point out that when people say like Dylan is taking the role away from a talented theater performer who's trained all their life, first of all, Dylan Mulvaney is also a trained musical theater performer with multiple credits who prior to her run in six on Broadway was performing in her own solo Off Broadway show. Not only that, but again, if it wasn't Dylan, Looking at the way the rest of this cast has been assembled with Abigail Barlow, with multiple members of the original Broadway cast returning, do we really think that it would be a debuting new Broadway face or do we think they would be bringing back another original Broadway cast member or somebody else with a profile for some mystical reason? And I'll generously give you three guesses, Dylan is getting a lot more scrutiny for playing the role of Anne Boleyn than Abigail Barlow is getting for playing the role of Katherine Howard. And we can have the same conversation about six and Chicago, which is that if neither of them them had resorted to stunt casting, both productions would already have closed. It is that simple. Whenever theater fans are denouncing stunt casting in the comments section, they are ignorant of the fact that it's the only way that the show is actually staying open in a deeply challenging financial climate. We have talked endlessly about how the finances of Broadway are currently very warped about how challenging it is for all of these shows to remain open with spiraling costs, costs. And so if bringing in established musical theater performers who also happen to have a few million TikTok followers is the way that they survive, then I happen to think that's actually a good decision. Also, and not for nothing, Dylan Mulvaney is actually one of the most kind hearted people I've ever met. Now we're going to take an imaginary flight down to Australia and I'll preface it by saying this is another fight I got into recently on social media and obviously I am very much out of the loop when it comes to Australian musical theatre fandom and Australian celebrities and the way that they are perceived within that space. But I took issue a little bit with the way that some people were talking about their disappointment over the casting of Waitress in Australia because the role of Jenna in Waitress, the lead role in the show, played on Broadway originally by Jessie Mueller, subsequently by the likes of Sara bareilles and Catherine McFoster and Betsy Wolfe and Shoshana Bean and all these people, that is going to be originated in Australia by an actress and singer called Natalie Bassingthwaite, who I gather has done theatre and musical theatre before for almost the duration of her career, but she is best known as a member of a band. I'm definitely not going to know this off the top of my head because it's. It's not about a musical. The Rogue Traders. There you go. Prior to which, she had risen to prominence on the soap opera Neighbors, because of course, she had. Truly, everybody needs good neighbors. But the way that I was seeing musical theatre fans talking about her, you would be forgiven for believing that she had never stepped on a stage in her life or even looked at a stage before. And, you know, I looked her up and come to find out not only has she been in musicals, she was in Jagged Little Pill in Australia, but also she has done plays. She recently was in Shirley Valentine, a one woman play, which is an extraordinary theatrical undertaking and has so much crossover with the role of Jenna in Waitress. What really irritated me, though, more than anything else was the way that people were talking about her age. And if there is one thing that will shorten my fuse of these conversations, it is the way that we talk about a woman's age and how the perception of a woman's age precludes her from being taken seriously or being believable in certain roles. I find it so utterly and obviously misogynistic. And that particular conversation is almost always propagated by gay men and a disappointing number of women who are all too happy to say, you know, she's too old, she's 50. As if reaching that age is the worst thing that a woman could possibly allow herself to do. And I find it so frustrating. Obviously, I understand that to be believable in certain roles, people have to be perceived a certain way. And yet it seems as though there is this finite and shallow section of a woman's life in which she is deemed to be actually age appropriate for the roles that she is otherwise entirely capable of playing. Rachel Zegler and Nicole Scherzinger, two of the most celebrated musical theatre performers of the London and New York stage of the last half decade, were both called too young for the roles that they were playing to play evita and Norma Desmond, respectively. But just as often we hear women being described as too old, unbelievably old. And with Nat Bass, as I believe she is called, the conversation quickly and unfortunately turned to the audience's ability to believe that she is having a pregnancy scare or an unplanned pregnancy. And I have no patience. I'll be honest, I have no patience whatsoever for a conversation about the perceptions of a woman's fertility on stage. And like with everything else, I know that there's a point when audiences will find this harder to believe, but I just don't think it's something that we need to be speculating about in advance. I also think it's something that we needn't be discussing publicly on social media, because guess what? You have no idea what an individual person's journey has been with fertility before saying, like, well, no one could ever believe that she could get pregnant at that age. I think that's a horrible thing to put out there into the universe. And just like I said in my previous conversation about Dylan Mulvaney as Anne Boleyn, unless they have drastically rewritten Waitress for its Australian premiere, I don't believe that she is actually required to birth live young on stage like a farmyard animal. Therefore, as long as theatrical magic continues, I think we're going to be fine. Guess what? The pies aren't real either. Spoiler alert. She's not really baking. Who could possibly believe that if she doesn't have, you know, pastry expense experience? Honestly, you people are ridiculous. And P.S. australian musical theatre fans, I'm sorry to point this out because I know that this isn't happy news for you either, but a lot of your musical theater productions have been closing early recently, and even as I read comments saying, like, the Waitress producers didn't need to do this, it kind of seems like maybe they did. Meanwhile, in London's West End, even if Cynthia Erivo isn't an example of stunt casting, and I stand by that, we do perhaps have a few which are upcoming, including the upcoming rotating cast of actors playing King Harry in the London return of Jesus Christ Superstar, including the likes of the more predictable Boy George and Julian Clary, no stranger to a stunt casting opportunity, either of them, as well as Leighton Williams, fresh off of his newly announced Broadway debut in Titanique. Richard Armitage, who, it turns out has a background in musical theatre. That man was in Cats, and I'm only just finding out this information. The classical actor Simon Russell Beale and Jesse Tyler Ferguson, best known to audiences for his TV role in Modern Family, but who prior to that was a musical theatre performer. Of course, all of this feels feels fairly moot in a production that has already cast Sam Ryder as Jesus, a role I think he is going to be very well suited for, even if it is stunt casting. Which makes me wonder, do we only actually call it stunt casting when we think it's going to be bad? When we're excited about it, do we still call it stunt casting? Speaking of which, it was just announced earlier today that Catherine Tate would be replacing Mason Alexander park in the extended West End run of oh Mary. Now, I think this is ingenious casting. I think she is going to have a lot more fun on stage at the Trafalgar longer than she was having the last couple of times that I have seen her in the Palladium Pantomime or in the Enfield Haunting. Nearly couldn't remember the name of that one because I had blocked it from my memory, as I'm sure has she. I'm willing to bet at least one week of that paycheck went on therapy. But people do seem understandably very excited about this and not particularly critical of what I would consider to be another example of stunt casting. Even though she has worked on stage previously. Do we all have these different personal lines in the sand about the stunt casting we are willing to criticize and the stunt casting we'd actually quite like to see? That's kind of why I'm not willing to stand in criticism of any of these casting decisions. Because I know there are a bunch of Real Housewives of just about anywhere who I would secretly quite like to see on stage. And you know what? That doesn't have to be a secret guilty pleasure of mine. For as long as the stage has existed, people have wanted to see personalities that they are excited about. You know, we didn't necessarily have reality TV stars in the 20th century, but there were scandalized figures appearing in vaudeville. I've seen Ragtime. I know what that's about. And theater has very often been sold on stars. Those stars just made their names in a different way. And yet, whenever this conversation turns into a debate, people say what they really want is fresh, new, undiscovered talent. But what do they really?
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I insisted first.
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What do you mean by that? Okay, bear with me me on this one because I have deleted multiple tiktoks trying to articulate this very idea. The thing is, is people are constantly saying that there needs to be room for fresh new undiscovered talent. And I agree only more often than not. When people are saying this, they are expecting it in leading roles in the biggest openings of the year. When Rachel Zegler was announced for Evita, people said, well, it's a shame that this couldn't be an opportunity for a fresh face to be catapulted to stardom. And honestly, being catapulted to stardom in that major role in that major production is about as violent as it sounds. But not only that, I just don't think it's particularly realistic. I think we have this fantasized idea in our heads which almost fetishizes the concept of undiscovered new talent. Big controversial word, I know, but rather than elevating the theater industry, I think that perspective kind of diminishes it and kind of invalidates it a little bit. I'll explain what I mean. The thing is, is in no other industry would you expect somebody to be plucked from total obscurity and relative inexperience and given the most prominent leading role. Somebody doesn't walk in to pitch their first article at a newspaper and immediately get appointed the editor in chief. Likewise, you don't interview for an internship and suddenly become a CEO. And while I am sure that we would all like, to a certain extent, new voices in politics on the appointment of a new president or prime minister, nobody would endorse an absolute newcomer to the world of politics. So why then do we expect it to happen in theatre and in musical theatre? And I think competition reality TV shows like Britain's Got Talent and America's Got Talent and the Voice and X Factor and American Idol have a lot of responsibility here where we see individuals plucked from, you know, their everyday lives and suddenly becoming celebrities on the basis of their talent. And I think people get really excited about the Susan Boyle of it all or the Kelly Clarkson of it all. Only to do that on the stage in a hugely demanding role like Evita or Jenna in Waitress requires an extraordinary amount of rigor. This is eight shows a week for weeks on end, unless they have an alternate, which, by the way, is actually a much better opportunity for an early career performer. And you aren't necessarily by giving them such huge sudden platform, setting them up for lasting success. But is that even what people want if we're constantly calling for brand new, undiscovered talent? You know, people are only new and undiscovered once. And this, I think, is specifically where that whole idea begins to invalidate the professional credibility of musical theater as a career. Because rather than seeing it as a legitimate profession, people still think of performing in musicals and starring on stage and being in the spotlight as akin to that thing that you do in amdram or community, the or that you did in school shows where everybody deserves a turn and everybody deserves their chance in the spotlight, regardless of how hard you've trained or to what extent you have dedicated yourself to this career or the roles that you have played previously, the experience that you have developed, the skills that you can bring to this. And that is all I hear every time I read complaints from people saying, oh, it's the same actors in these roles all the time. And of course it is, because they go from one show to the next because this is their career career. And if we're shaming people for leaving theatre and then coming back to it and calling that stunt casting, why are we also shaming people for staying in theater and trying to work on stage consistently? Truly, they cannot win. People seem to expect performers to simply take one leading role in their careers, enjoy the warmth of the spotlight and then disappear entirely so that a literally unending parade of new talent can continue to star in the next show and the show after that. And of course we need new talent. That's why I love things like the Stage Debut Awards, which celebrate celebrates all of the debuting performers. And there is constantly new talent arriving into the industry. Even though a director like Jamie Lloyd, in the shows that he puts on often platforms celebrities in leading roles, he is brilliant for discovering exciting new talent and casting them alongside. We can talk about Diego Andres Rodriguez and Grace Hodgett young and early career performers like Bella Brown and Tom Francis and Francesca Amawood Rivers. And more to the point, why is it that you are only going to be able to see new talent if they are cast as Jenna in Waitress, which first of all has almost never been cast with anyone other than an established performer with a little bit of profile. But also, if you're so enamored with new talent, are you actually supporting it as an audience member? Are you going to find those performers, those new voices in the places where they can currently be found? Are you going to Off West End or Off Broadway and fringe theaters Are you going to Cabaret spaces and Open minded nights? Also, because these conversations get so focused simply to the talent on stage, Are you supporting new writing? And can we have a conversation about the fact that a lot of new writing only makes its way to the world's biggest stages like the West End and Broadway? If a celebrity can be cast in those plays, every Brilliant Thing is finally opening on Broadway after years of success around the world. Would it be happening if it weren't starring Daniel Radcliffe? No, of course not. And so, to answer the question sung by Sophie and Muffins Mamma Mia. This is it. This is the name of the game. And while audience members seem inclined to profess that they are suffering through stunt casting, which I think by and large is not nearly as bad as it was pre pandemic, I would also argue that by and large it is our theatre going habits which maintain its necessity. Okay, plenty of things said there about stunt casting. Some of them, perhaps unexpected. Perhaps you agree with me entirely. Entirely. Perhaps you wildly disagree. All interpretations of this are valid. It's a conversation. Let me know all of your thoughts in the comments section down below. As always, as with anything else, there are going to be, I think, good and bad examples of stunt casting. I also think effective stunt casting can just mean that they sold tickets and the show stayed open. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that they were great in the role and you know, if their fans walked away happy. Maybe that's enough of a job well done. But since we're on the topic, feel free to share with me your thoughts about any potentially stunt cast before performances you have seen in recent weeks. Just don't be telling me about trained, established, award winning theatre performers who happen to now be a bit more famous than they were. Finally, if you have enjoyed listening to my thoughts on this and you would like to hear more about the theatre industry worldwide, then make sure you're subscribed here on YouTube or following me on podcast platforms, or if you want to hear everything I have to say about theatre every single week, sign up for my free weekly substack newsletter in the link in the Description Description I have been Mickey Jo Theatre and I have only one more thing to say, which is that as always, I hope everyone is staying safe and that you have a stagey day for 10 more seconds. I'm Mickey Jo Theatre. Oh my God. Hey, thanks for watching. Have a stagey day.
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- [33:23]
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News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:31]
Acast Announcer
ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.