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Go to shopify.com podcastfree to upgrade your selling today. Now. When I first heard this particular piece of casting news being rumored, I was confused. Then I started to get it and then I was confused again. Oh my God. Hey, welcome back to my theatre themed YouTube channel. Or hello to you if you are listening to this on podcast platforms. My name is Mickey Jo and I'm obsessed with all things theatre. If you're just meeting me for the first time, I am a professional theatre critic and a social media content creator based here in the uk. Several times a year I fly across the Atlantic on a plane. I'm not that talented to go and see as many Broadway and Off Broadway shows as possible possible. And my favorite musical on Broadway, this year's Tony Award winner for Best New Musical maybe Happy Ending, just announced a huge piece of replacement principal casting because Darren Criss has announced his final scheduled performance in the role of Oliver and is going to be replaced for a nine week limited run by Andrew Barth Feldman. Now this has immediately created conversation because the show is set in Seoul, South Korea. Darren Criss, who is also a producer on the show, is if you don't know, an Asian American actor. I feel like a new person discovers that somewhere every day. And what that tells me is that very few people must have watched the Ryan Murphy Hollywood TV series, the one he was in with Superman. And the show, when it first opened on Broadway, featured an almost entirely Asian cast. But Darren is being replaced by Andrew Barth Feldman, who is a white Jewish actor who also, it's worth pointing out, is in a long term relationship with Helen J. Shen, who is the other star of the show and opened the production alongside Darren Criss. And this particular casting announcement has elicited a really broad range of emotional and intellectual responses. People are understandably surprised and disappointed by the announcement of what they expect to be an Asian actor replacing Darren Criss in this role. And there are so many layers to this conversation, which becomes a much bigger conversation about Asian representation on Broadway and representation in the musical theater industry in general. Which is why I want to talk about it today and I want to talk about it in a way that is not shaming the individual actors involved, that is not shaming and targeting and harassing the social media teams who have the responsibility of moderating these comment sections and face the brunt of the criticism from fans whenever there is a backlash. Shout out to the social media managers crying through their lunch breaks because 100 different strangers on the Internet just called them a racist. I'm joking, I'm joking. Of course they don't get lunch breaks. But I really do want to have a very nuanced and open and considered conversation about all of this. And I invite you all to weigh into that conversation as well down in the comments section with a reminder, as always, to engage with each other with the utmost respect and consideration of everyone's shared humanity. All of that being said, let's talk about it. How do we feel about this particular piece of casting for maybe Happy Ending? So we've talked through most of the context, but if you're new to this show and this story, then I will fill in the blanks. Maybe Happy Ending opened within the last year on Broadway at the Belasco Theatre. It has become a huge Tony Award winning success with a big social media following. It originally Pre Broadway and Pre the US premiered in South Korea, it having been written by Will Aronson and Hugh park and it is a very charming and sweet and sentimental and intelligent story about two helper bots. Two sort of AI robot assistants. It's set obviously in the near distant future who have been retired to the helper bot yards because they are no longer needed by the humans who hired them, bought them, owned them? Robot slavery? Hard to say. They for various reasons go on a road trip together to Jeju island and over the course of the thing they learn about what it means to fall in love and the joy and also the sorrow of that. And in doing so, these robot characters teach us, the audience, a great deal about humanity. If you want to know more about my thoughts on the show, you can go and listen. Listen to my full review. Spoiler Alert. I loved it. I think it is currently the best musical running on Broadway and I wish nothing but stratospheric success for the show. That being said, I was also from the beginning very proud of the fact that this was amidst significant underrepresentation in the theatre industry and on Broadway in particular, a brilliant platform for remarkably talented Asian performers. And I have met and chatted to Andrew Barth Feldman. I interviewed him for my YouTube channel. You can go and check out that conversation when he was appearing off Broadway in We Had a World earlier this year. I've also met Darren Cr On a couple of occasions. And as much respect as I have for absolutely everyone in this situation, I was surprised immediately when I heard that this was a possibility because I had assumed that the intention was always going to be to have Asian actors in these roles. I hadn't even considered that they would be hiring non Asian actors to play Claire or Oliver. So like I said, Darren Criss, who is leading actor in the show and a producer, won Tony Awards for both within about seven minutes back in June. He is going to be leaving the show earlier than Helen J. Shen, which is not necessarily surprising. Surprising because Helen is this earlier career Broadway rising star. Darren has two young kids. He spoke in his Tony Awards acceptance speech about how grateful he was to his wife Mia for shouldering so much parental responsibility to enable him to do this job, to perform in this show. But having done it for the better part of a year, it's not entirely surprising that he may now be looking forward to some time away. Do I think that this is the last time we're going to see him in the show? Not necessarily. I wouldn't actually be surprised if this nine week limited run ends with Darren Criss returning to maybe Happy Ending, potentially just after an extended break from performing eight times a week on stage. Which brings us to Andrew Barth Feldman, another early career Broadway rising star. Although in that short time he has already become very accomplished on stage and screen. He has done like legit big film roles. He has also been on Broadway in Dear Evan Hansen, he was a Jimmy Awards winner and he has for a few years, I believe been in a relationship with Helen J. Shen. And so it's of little surprise that in supporting Helen, Andrew has been to see maybe Happy Ending. Last time when I spoke to him about it, he had seen the show I think eight times, the most recent being a few days before when he had been on one side of the aisle and I was sat on the other side of the aisle. And so he is a super fan of the show. But also this represents something very sweet for the two of them, which is the opportunity to tell this story as a real life couple. And that is something that I think aside from the optics of all of this casting and everything else that we are going to say about it, that is undeniably very sweet and very special. It's been admittedly a good few years from what I can remember, since we have had a real life couple playing a couple on stage, on Broadway, at least publicly. There have been plenty of them that have been sleeping together, but, you know, openly. It's been a little while. And also, Andrew Barth Feldman is in almost every sense a really perfect fit for this role. He is going to be a fantastic Oliver in maybe Happy Ending. But this brings us back to the reality that he is white, which is not his fault. And also, I'm being tongue in cheek. It's of course inherently no bad thing. But we do have to consider this in context, which is what we're about to do. But first, let's consider briefly why the producers, creatives, everyone involved in this casting decision at maybe Happy Ending may have reached this particular decision. And something I do want to highlight at this point is there is, I think, a hierarchy here of who is entitled to the most important opinion on this topic. I am low down in that hierarchy because I am a white male and this is not explicitly about me. I am only wading boldly into this conversation because I think it's interesting and important and also because I have a platform here on social media. Not many people do. And considerably higher up that hierarchy of validity, if you like, are members of the AAPI community, particularly those working in the theater industry. I would say especially those working as actors in the theater industry who have had to experience historically and ongoingly being marginalized as far as casting goes for Broadway shows. Of course, no one community is entirely monolithic. And I have seen a whole bunch of different responses to this. I have seen Asian actors sharing very articulately why they are disappointed news. Disappointed, if perhaps not surprised. I've also seen people trying to be outraged on behalf of Darren Criss. And the thing to remember here is that Darren, who just secured a historic Tony Award win in a historic year for the Tony Awards in which we saw more AAPI nominees and winners than ever before, and several needless glass ceilings were triumphantly shattered. Darren is also a producer on the show and will have been involved in making this decision. This is not happening without his blessing and consent. Do you know who else is presumably very happy about this is Helen J. Shen. At the same time, I don't believe any of the individuals involved in this, especially the pr, marketing and social media teams, will have anticipated anything other than a little bit of pushback when this was announced. And I expect what many of you are thinking is, why are they even doing this in the first place? Why not just hire an Asian actor to replace Darren? Why not promote one of the understudies? And this of course is an option that would have been available to the show. They are doing very well at the moment and I tend to think that this is the time when they need to be the least reliable reliant on star casting, stunt casting, celebrity casting, whatever you want to call it. Because they're coming off of the success of the Tony win. Box office numbers are looking fantastic at the moment. They're doing really well on Socials. It's a great time to be maybe Happy Ending. However, it is inevitable that that might shift after Darren Criss leaves, especially as he was the one who wanted Tony for his performance in the show and he has a great deal of name recognition beforehand thanks to the enduring legacy of Glee as well as Starkid. I've not forgotten Starkid. I heard you heard you typing that one in the comments. But for 9 weeks inclination is to think that the show would have survived without name casting in this role. However, these are uncertain times for Broadway. I just recently reported on a handful of post Tony Awards show closures and neither of them have been doing as well before the Tonys as maybe Happy Ending or won as many awards as maybe Happy Ending. But we also have to glance back at the last few years of Tony Award winning shows and other than the Outsiders, many of them closed within a year or just beyond a year. I'm talking about Kimberly Akimbo, I'm talking about talking about a strange loop, and I actually think maybe Happy Ending has more cross generational appeal and broader appeal than either of those shows. But I understand why the producers might have felt a little bit cautious and so very possibly they arrive at what feels like a very convenient casting move to have Andrew come in opposite Helen. It's a PR story that writes itself. They can do interviews and press together about getting to play this love story on stage that mirrors their own real lives. And my other assumption is that this might be coinciding with Helen's final performance in the show and might be ending the thing together before Darren comes back. Perhaps another star is coming in alongside Darren. I don't know. We also inevitably, I think, have to acknowledge that these are not easy roles to stunt cast, particularly Oliver. Why? Because to my knowledge there are not that many age appropriate, talent appropriate star names of an AAPI background in the musical theatre industry. There are more star names that you could put in as Claire, you could put in Stephanie Hsu, you could put in Ashley park. But I struggle to think of that many viable choices for Oliver who would really deliver at the box office. That's not to say there aren't fantastic talented performers, I just mean that there aren't names. And that is not maybe Happy Ending's fault. It is not even Broadway's fault. That is a sort of a systemic thing that needs to be nurtured at the most basic foundation levels. I'm talking about musical theatre in high schools, I'm talking about musical theatre training, I'm talking about the Jimmy Awards, I'm talking about college admissions. We need need to make sure that we are nurturing and encouraging and supporting AAPI talent at a really grassroots level. But then the other side of that coin is that we also have to platform them in these roles and give them these star making opportunities in order to turn them into star names. Stephanie Hsu and Ashley park, both of whom I just mentioned were working theater actors before they got the screen gigs that gave them considerably more profile. Darren Criss as well, I guess with Glitch. And here's the other kicker, because this conversation always comes back to representation. What is the thing that is going to inspire those young kids to actually be on a Broadway stage? The idea, the notion that it is possible. When you see yourself reflected somewhere, you even subconsciously learn that that is a possibility for you. And if they don't see that representation, then on a subliminal level it feels as though it's not an open door. It feels as though it's not a possibility, which is why representation is important. But I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself. Let's talk about race in casting and the three ideas which go into it. So to my mind, when we talk about race in casting in a theatrical context, there are three different elements to this conversation. We need to talk about accuracy. We need to talk about authenticity, which is like accuracy but also different. And we need to talk about representation, as I just alluded to now, when we talk about accuracy on stage, this is too often held up as a linchpin of inherently racist arguments against, against certain casting examples where it doesn't really matter, but they act like it does. And for some reason, every single time, it is Rosa Parks that they offer as an example. Like when Cynthia Erivo was cast to play Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar, who for the record, was never white, historically speaking. There were so many comments saying, well, why don't we just let a white guy play Rosa Parks? And since they always want to go there, let's talk about Rosa Parks and let's talk about her as a character who is briefly portrayed in the musical the Scottsboro Boys. Now this is a piece of theatre where the race of the actors cast in the show is pivotally important from a perspective of accuracy, because these were characters who endured an extraordinary miscarriage of justice because they were black men in a hugely racist society. Hairspray is another musical where you have white characters and you have black characters, and they're exploring ideas about segregation and integration. Obviously, race matters here. On other occasions, however, we see the historic races of characters deliberately dismantled. Hamilton comes into this conversation, and we'll get to that in just a moment. But there are also a handful of shows where the specificity of race doesn't really matter. There are a great many Sondheim shows where the race of the actor doesn't really matter. There are many shows which are historically and traditionally cast with white performers, even though it's never been about their whiteness. And ultimately, I think a lot of conversations about exact accuracy as far as race goes in musical theatre casting tend to fall down because there is a certain ludicrousity at play always. I mean, we could talk about the characters in Les Mis and how they ought to be played by French people, but the reality is that they're singing with, like, cockney British accents in the first place, and also their singing on a barricade. So at a certain point, a debate does start to feel a little bit silly. What I tend to concern myself with more is the conversation around point number two, authenticity. Now, because people are acting on stage and portraying a character other than themselves, I think the exact accuracy is not nearly as important to a great performance as authenticity and a level of insight to be able to portray that character meaningfully and well. This is something that we often talk about when we talk about casting Jewish actors in Jewish roles or casting queer actors in queer roles. The conversation about the casting of Fanny Brice in Funny Girl often traverses this particular terrain. And even though great performances can be transformative, authenticity is often a hugely important component of them. Now, as we talk about authenticity, we also have to talk about Hamilton, which is an interesting and unique case because it subverts historical expectation and it takes these real historical characters and it casts them with non white actors in order to tell the story of America, then, in a way that reflects the diversity of America today, as well as delivering a powerful and increasingly timely message about immigrants. Now, as far as maybe happy ending goes, the role of Oliver is a robot. He is a robot living in Seoul, South Korea. But there is nothing in the material to preclude the suggestion that he could have been a robot crafted after the appearance of a Western Caucasian male. And within the context of the material, there is nothing really in terms of accuracy nor in terms of authenticity that requires this role to be played by an Asian performer. There is nothing, for Oliver, at least culturally, that feels inherently like it would only be understood and only be authentically conveyed by an Asian actor. But then we arrive at point number three, which is representation. Representation is hugely important for the reason that I already shared, but also because there is an existing inequality when it comes to casting on Broadway that needs to be addressed. And particularly for male actors. I think that may sound a little bit surprising, but hear me out. There is a trope that we see often, particularly in love stories, particularly in musical theater, where you have have a young, white, romantic male lead playing against a woman of color. We saw it initially, but not consistently in Sunset Boulevard. We saw it initially, but not consistently in Hadestown, both on Broadway and in the West End. We're seeing it off Broadway right now in Heather's. It is written into the DNA of the brilliant musical Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York. And so in general, and at a glance, it seems to though, there are more opportunities for young female presenting, Asian Broadway actresses, actors than male presenting. And I do genuinely think that this whole thing would matter just a little bit less if there wasn't a scarcity of opportunity to begin with. And so when we talk about diversifying the talent in our casts, in our principal cast, in our ensembles, on our stages, we need to also make sure we are diversifying the name recognition, star talent that is able to command the box office, because that is how Broadway gets to remain commercially viable. The last thing we want is another Natasha Pierre and the great Comet of 1812 situation, if you know what I'm referring to. This is something that happened around the time that that particular show closed on Broadway. And I don't want to dive all the way into it, but a black actor was brought in as a replacement cast member for a white performer. And then when the box office was still struggling, it was announced that he would be replaced quite early into his run with another white performer with more name recognition. What ensued was a considerable backlash that he was being ejected from the show in favor of a more famous name, but conspicuously in favor of a more famous white name. And in response to that backlash, the actor who was due to replaced him pulled out of the product and it's subsequently closed, which I refuse to characterize as the fault of any one person. I think it's more indicative of the economically harsh reality of Broadway.