Let's talk about BOOTLEGS | Thoughts on the slime tutorial debate in West End and Broadway theatre - MickeyJoTheatre

Summary

Podcast Summary: MickeyJoTheatre – "Let's talk about BOOTLEGS | Thoughts on the slime tutorial debate in West End and Broadway theatre"

Release Date: July 16, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode, Mickey-Jo from MickeyJoTheatre delves deep into the contentious issue of bootlegs in the theatre industry. He explores the ethical dilemmas, financial implications, and accessibility concerns surrounding the illegal recording and distribution of live theatrical performances. Using the recent controversy surrounding Heather's the Musical as a focal point, Mickey-Jo navigates through various facets of the bootleg debate, offering insightful commentary and personal reflections.

1. Introduction to Bootlegs in Theatre

Mickey-Jo begins by defining bootlegs within the theatrical context, clarifying that he is referring to the unauthorized video recordings of live performances, commonly known as "slime tutorials" on social media platforms.

"If anyone is completely confused coming into this conversation and thinks I'm talking about alcohol in the 1920s, I'm not. I am talking about the illegal video recording."
[02:09]

He emphasizes the recurring nature of this debate in the theatre community and his decision to address it more comprehensively after a hasty TikTok reaction.

2. Recent Controversy: Heather's the Musical

The spotlight turns to the recent backlash faced by Heather's the Musical when the production team politely requested audiences not to record the show illegally. Mickey-Jo articulates the mixed reactions from fans and the broader implications for the production.

"It's not the first time that Heather's the Musical has found itself alongside controversy. It may be the first time that, you know, this is absolutely not its fault."
[04:45]

3. Bootlegs and Accessibility

One of the primary arguments in favor of bootlegs is enhanced accessibility. Mickey-Jo explores how bootlegs could bridge gaps for audiences hindered by:

Physical Disabilities: Inaccessible venues lacking proper wheelchair accommodations.
Geographical Barriers: Difficulty in traveling to major theatre hubs like London or New York.
Financial Constraints: High ticket prices making live shows unaffordable for many.

"Something like a bootleg which brings a version of that show to those people who can't necessarily travel, can't physically gain access to the building, or can't afford to buy a ticket, is seen in that context as a great thing."
[07:30]

He acknowledges the value bootlegs provide but contrasts it with the irreplaceable nature of the live experience.

4. Bootlegs as Marketing and Impact on Box Office

Mickey-Jo shifts to the discussion on whether bootlegs harm or help theatre productions financially. He presents anecdotal evidence suggesting that bootlegs can serve as effective marketing tools rather than detriments to box office sales.

Case Study: Heather's the Musical: Bootlegs from the original Off Broadway run contributed to its popularity and subsequent successful revival.

"Bootlegs that were made of the show at the time in particular... helped to gain a lot of popularity for the show in musical theater fandom circles."
[12:15]
Comparison to Pro Shots: While some argue that official recordings might reduce the need for live attendance, Mickey-Jo contends that no recording can replicate the communal and ephemeral essence of theatre.

"Getting to watch a pro shot is not the same thing as getting to be in the room where it happens."
[14:50]

5. Performer Consent and Ethical Issues

The crux of Mickey-Jo's argument against bootlegs lies in the issue of performer consent. He raises concerns about the unauthorized recording of actors, especially during sensitive or intimate moments on stage.

"Performer consent is my number one issue, my bottom line when it comes to bootlegs, nudity or not. I just think it's inherently disrespectful and creepy."
[22:10]

He narrates incidents where performers felt violated by being recorded without permission, drawing parallels to invasive and disrespectful behavior outside the theatrical context.

"It's creepy... it's not okay to film Somebody at work and then post it regardless."
[25:45]

6. Bootlegs as Historical Record

Despite his reservations, Mickey-Jo acknowledges the historical significance of bootlegs as archives of performances that might otherwise be lost to time. Reflecting on his personal experiences, he shares how bootlegs enriched his understanding and appreciation of theatre history.

"Bootlegs as a form of historical record... they are invaluable, capturing moments that archival footage might miss."
[28:30]

However, he balances this by reiterating that historical value does not override the ethical concerns related to consent and performers' rights.

7. Final Thoughts: The Ephemeral Nature of Theatre

In concluding, Mickey-Jo underscores the unique, transient nature of live theatre. He posits that the magic of being present in the moment with a live audience and performers cannot be fully captured through recordings.

"Theatre is about that experience in the room, that personal connection between a community of people, between yourself and the performer on stage."
[32:15]

He calls for innovative solutions to enhance accessibility without compromising the integrity and consent of those involved in theatrical productions.

8. Conclusion

Mickey-Jo wraps up the episode by reaffirming his stance that while bootlegs may offer certain benefits in terms of accessibility and marketing, the ethical issues surrounding performer consent make them an untenable solution. He encourages ongoing dialogue within the theatre community to address these challenges respectfully and constructively.

"Bootlegs cannot be that solution. And the reason I say that is because of the performer consent problem."
[33:00]

He invites listeners to engage in the conversation through comments, fostering a space for respectful debate and shared insights.

Key Takeaways:

Complexity of Bootlegs: Bootlegs present a multifaceted issue with valid arguments on both sides regarding accessibility and the preservation of theatrical history.
Ethical Considerations: The paramount concern revolves around the consent and rights of performers, highlighting the need for respectful boundaries in capturing live performances.
Irreplaceable Live Experience: The unique, communal nature of live theatre cannot be fully replicated through any form of recording, emphasizing the importance of attending performances in person.
Call for Solutions: The episode underscores the necessity for the theatre industry to innovate and find ways to enhance accessibility without compromising ethical standards.

Mickey-Jo's comprehensive exploration offers a balanced perspective, acknowledging personal experiences and broader industry implications, making it a valuable listen for anyone interested in the evolving dynamics of theatre in the digital age.

Transcript

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Mickey Jo Theatre (2:09)

So there are a couple of conversation topics which get reignited periodically within the theatre industry and one of those is the conversation around bootlegs and the ethics of bootlegs and the financial implication of bootlegs and the accessibility of bootlegs. And I decided the other day to make a TikTok about this particular topic because I guess nobody had at me and my phone for a couple of days. And foolishly I shared a hasty hot take about this complicated issue which merits, like almost everything else, a more nuanced discussion which we're gonna have right now. Oh my God. Hey, welcome back to my theatre themed YouTube channel. Or hello to you. If you're listening to this on podcast platforms, you don't get to enjoy my lovely Gutenberg the musical hat, which I'm only wearing at 11pm at night inside my own home because my hair today, not unlike the Red Sea prior to Moses. Saying a few nice words to it is really just refusing to part. Which is fine. I'm among friends, at least for now, because I'm about to share with you my complicated feelings about bootlegs. Complicated because it's a complicated issue with objective pros and cons, with things that I don't think anyone can contravene in either direction, and a lot of other stuff that we can objectively disagree on, almost all of which I'm going to attempt to outline for you today. If anyone is completely confused coming into this conversation and thinks I'm talking about alcohol in the 1920s, I'm not. I am talking about the illegal video recording. There's also audio recording, but that's not as acutely a part of this conversation. I'm particularly talking about the illegal video recording of theatrical productions, productions that don't allow you to film during the show, which is the vast majority of them. And then subsequently the uploading, sale and propagation of these online and these days across social media. You may also hear these bootlegs referred to as slime tutorials. I don't know when that started, but it was after my day, kids. Anyway, the reason that we're having this conversation right now is because the recently opened Off Broadway production of Heather's the Musical, which has returned to its original Broadway New World Stages after a lot of success on the other side of the Atlantic here in the uk, recently shared via their social media a polite request that audience members not illegally film the show when they were attending, which, to absolutely nobody's surprise, has been met with a little bit of backlash and controversy. It's not the first time that Heather's the Musical has found itself alongside controversy. It may be the first time that, you know, this is absolutely not its fault. But we are going to talk about why, and I'm going to talk about the general concept of bootlegs and every different facet of this conversation. Because we can talk about marketing and we can talk about bootlegs as a historical record and we can talk about them as a tool for greater theatrical accessibility. But I'm also going to highlight the fascinating specificity of the relationship between Heather's the Musical and bootlegs. It being one of a handful of shows that has become really embedded within the consciousness of the musical theatre community because of recordings made of its original Off Broadway run. But I'm getting ahead of myself for now. I want to acknowledge that you are all going to have strong feelings about bootlegs. Feel free to share all of those as I am talking through this in the comments sect as I'm going along. And if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to my theatre themed YouTube channel if you still like me at the end of this. Or go follow me on podcast platforms in the meantime. Said with only a little bit of regret, let's talk about bootlegs, shall we? Now I feel satisfied that I've explained thoroughly enough to you what bootlegs are. If you're not completely aware of this, what you might not know is just how widespread bootlegs can be. And I feel even more so in the TikTok Times now than they were a few years ago. And I do want to acknowledge that in my earlier musical theater loving teens I was very involved in the bootleg trading community. I never went into a theater and filmed anything. I never had the gumption for one thing, and I was too afraid of the concept of like a lifetime ban from the theater. But I did have something of a collection of a lot of bootlegs. And so any negative thoughts that I am going to share here and about bootlegs are to a certain extent hypocritical. But like Alanis Morissette of the musical Jagged Little Pill has taught us, you live, you learn. And the first angle of all of this that I want to begin with is the conversation around bootlegs and accessibility. And this is a conversation that I preempted when I made my first TikTok about this a few days ago. Because I suggested a little, little clumsily, more than a little clumsily in fact, that anyone still asking for Heather's bootlegs, or still making Heather's bootlegs, or still complaining that Heathers would even deign to ask that they not make illegal recordings of the show, is no longer actually advocating for accessibility, and that the idea of accessibility was being hijacked a little as a justification for young fans, usually young fans, just wanting to see a recording of the show that they want to see, but can't necessarily afford to travel to, or can't necessarily afford tickets to, which is part of the accessibility conversation. But it gets harder when a pro shot exists. And once again, I'm putting the cart before the horse. Let's talk about theatrical accessibility and inaccessibility. So when we talk about this, perhaps the first thing that springs to mind is the disabled community and all of the many barriers which are in place in terms of being able to go and enjoy a theatrical experience for them. There are many old and inaccessible venues, particularly in London's West End, but I think, sadly, also on Broadway, and that's on a handful of fronts. That's in terms of standard wheelchair access, but also access for power chair users, which is a different type of wheelchair. There are some theatres, devastatingly, which have spent an extraordinary sum of money on refurbishment, but haven't included in their consideration power chair users. So there are some newly installed lifts in certain theatres within the last decade that power chair users can't utilize, and a lot of theatrical spaces where some wheelchair users are precluded from entry because of just a couple of steps. It's incredibly frustrating. Then we have to consider all of the other disabilities, including invisible disabilities that exist alongside that, and the incredibly limited number of relaxed performances, if any. And that is just one type of theatrical inaccessibility, because you also have to consider geographical inaccessibility. You know, people can't go to the theater in a country that they don't live in if they can't afford to travel to that country in the first place, or even a different part of the country that they do live in. I hear constantly that people aren't able to go and see shows that they like in London because they can't afford the ever increasing train prices to travel down or travel up from a different part of the country. And they're just hoping against hope that that show will eventually go on tour to wherever it is that they live. Which brings us immediately into a conversation about financial inaccessibility and the inability to go and see a particular production at the theater because you can't afford the ticket prices. And this is something that we have been talking about more and more and more as the world is experiencing more. More financial crises, as ticket prices seem to be ever on the increase. And I talk about all of this, I realize from a position of enormous privilege, because I have access to a great many complimentary theatre tickets as part of the work that I do as a theatre critic here on social media. I also recall the days when I saw as much theatre as I could afford to with the money that I was making on a Saturday morning when I was 16, and I booked every, like, upper back corner, last row of every West End theater that I could, if I had enough money to travel into London that particular week. I used all of the young person's discount schemes that were available, which is why I still champion those and think that they are incredibly important. But in the face of all of this, something like a bootleg which brings a version of that show to those people who can't necessarily travel, can't physically gain access to the building, or can't afford to buy a ticket, is seen in that context as a great thing. It allows those people access to the show that they love, or at least some version of it, because, you know, even an extraordinarily well filmed bootleg is rarely as good as a pro shot recording, which in and of itself is still not a perfect substitute for the live theatrical experience. There is something about theatre, and I'll conclude by talking about this all again at the end of the video, but it is about that communal exchange, it's about being in the room, and there is no perfect substitute for that, even with some brilliant live broadcasts of theatrical productions, and even with some very impressive bootleg recordings. And one of the questions that arises, especially when bootlegs get held up as an access alternative, is why can't we just stream Broadway performances or western performances? Why can't we just stream them every single night? People say, I would absolutely buy a streaming ticket if I could. And the problem with this, particularly on Broadway, is the expense of the whole thing. For one thing, everyone always says, oh, I would be very happy with just like one static camera in the back of the house. I've watched a lot of those and I can promise you that you would. They are really difficult, like, almost impossible to emotionally engage with in any kind of a substantial way. But also there are huge financial barriers in place even for that. And a lot of that comes from the unions that exist around Broadway theater. The unions for the actors, the unions for the musicians. Which is why in the past, certain shows have prohibited even filming the curtain call if the band is playing during this time. And so, sadly at the moment, the expense of the whole thing of streaming a Broadway production just isn't justifiable. And I hope that that is a conversation which evolves down the line, because I think, you know, this appetite isn't going to change. The only thing that is going to change over the next few decades is the makeup of audiences. And if we aren't doing enough to future proof audiences inside the theater, then we're going to have to meet them where they are and where they are increasingly is in a digital space. And what this does is prompt our next question. Are bootlegs actually helping or hindering the box office? So let's talk about bootlegs and marketing and box offices. And this is where this conversation being about Heathers becomes particularly interesting because anecdotally and there is very little statistical evidence to support this, but it is said that much of the success of Heathers and you know, the fact that it even exists now, the fact that it is back off Broadway is down to the popularity that it gained during its original Off Broadway run via bootleg recordings which were made of the show and you know, a cast out album was released and it had in person performances. But there is a general understanding, and I don't disagree with this, that bootlegs that were made of the show at the time in particular, like the video of Candy Store that ended up on YouTube, helped to gain a lot of popularity for the show in musical theater fandom circles. It was on the back of that popularity that the UK production had a really substantial launch like that initial other palace run pretty much sold out before it started. And then, you know, if you push the boulder off the hill with enough force, it's going to roll faster. And that's where we are now with Heather's back off Broadway and the, the boulder at the, at the bottom of the hill. And so some fans have criticized Heathers for asking them not to bootleg by saying you wouldn't even have the success if it weren't for bootlegs and you should be grateful for the illegal recordings made of the show. And two things could be true at once. That can be the reality of the production and it can also still be their request that, you know, you not legally. And if it feels like I'm laboring that point, it may just be because I think we've gotten so casual with the notion of doing it, especially from all of the young theatre fans that I see in these social media comments sections saying like, well, you literally can't stop us or suggesting that it's morally right for them to do so even though it's not legal. And the next argument that usually follows is, well, if you're not going to make a pro shot, then you can't complain when people bootleg if you're not going to make it accessible to us in that way, or if you're not going to make ticket prices low enough and we can talk endlessly about ticket prices. For what it's worth, I don't think that Heather's off Broadway has the most extraordinarily high ticket prices. I think for the most part the theatre fans who are able to actually get to the theatre would probably be able by and large to afford tickets. And I think the geographical barrier is a much bigger one, like affording flights to New York and potentially an overnight stay at a Manhattan hotel is going to set you back way more than Heather's tickets. But let's talk about the pro shot of it all, because that so often is the central argument of these things. And that's why I went TikTok, because I understand when they say like, well, we wouldn't need to do this if there was a pro shot, but with Heather's, and that's once again why this is an interesting example. There is a pro shot, there is literally a professionally filmed recording and it was when the show was in the UK and it's a British cast and it's not the ones doing it right now. And I get absolutely the eagerness and the enthusiasm to see this current Off Broadway cast because it's a great cast. I want to see Lorna Courtney playing Veronica. I want to see Casey Likes, I want to see Mackenzie Kurtz and all of the rest of them. I absolutely understand where that passion is coming from. I share that, of course I do. But I also think it really pierces that argument when there is a pro shot recording of the show that exists and it transpires that you don't just really need to see Heathers, you want to see this specific version that is happening right now with this specific cast. And I think, as I will reaffirm later, that we all have a right to theatre and we all have a right to arts. I think that is not a privilege, that is a human right. I don't know if I would agree that we have a right to, to the specific show that we want at this specific time. I don't know if Heather's Off Broadway is a human right in the same way that I think theater is as a general concept and I know that not everything lasts forever on streaming services and not everything is available in every single country. For what it's worth, I had a lot of follow up comments of people being like, the Heathers pro shot isn't available in this country or I don't know where to find it online. If you Google Heather's pro shot, at least at the time of filming, there are places you can find it very easily online. Hell, searched into YouTube and right now you will also find it there. And I have and this is perhaps controversial in and of itself. I have far less of a problem with you finding a dubious way to watch the Heathers pro shot, even though you're still taking money out of people's pockets by doing that. And you're taking money out of the pockets of people who worked to, you know, put a pro shot together and bring it to the fans and make it more widely available. I have far less of a problem with that than I do with you watching or particularly filming a bootleg inside the theater for reasons I will articulate subsequently. But since we are still talking about the box office and about marketing, we have to have the conversation about whether or not bootlegs are actually helping more than they're hindering. Because people say this with pro shots as well, that like, oh, if they can just watch it at home, then they're not going to go to the show. And there is no statistical evidence to suggest this either. Look at the ongoing success of Hamilton after a lot of people watched that pro shot on Disney plus. There is nothing how many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi vehicle discount, Safe driver discount, New vehicle discount, Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up?