146. Jack Antonoff Returns: Working Out the New Theme Song

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - Episode 146: Jack Antonoff Returns: Working Out the New Theme Song

Introduction

In Episode 146 of "Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out," renowned comedian and host Mike Birbiglia welcomes back Jack Antonoff, a multifaceted musician, producer, and frontman of the band Bleachers. This episode dives deep into Jack's expansive career, personal life, creative processes, and his perspectives on authenticity in the arts.

Guest Background

Jack Antonoff opens the conversation by reflecting on his views about success and personal opinions surrounding it. He shares insights from a recent interview with Billboard, where he discussed his perceived "hunger" in the music industry.

Jack Antonoff [00:00]: "People's personal opinions on the concept of success colors so much."

Mike Birbiglia provides an overview of Jack's impressive career trajectory, highlighting his marriage to actress Margaret Qualley, his work with major artists like Taylor Swift, Lana Del Rey, Bruce Springsteen, and St. Vincent, and his consecutive Grammy wins for Producer of the Year.

Current Projects and Achievements

Jack elaborates on his ongoing projects, including the latest albums from Bleachers: the self-titled Bleachers and Stranger Desired. He expresses his enthusiasm for the band's upcoming Madison Square Garden performance and shares details about both his and Mike's touring schedules.

Mike Birbiglia [00:37]: "Bleachers will be playing Madison Square Garden this Friday. I'm going, maybe I'll see you there."

Authenticity and Performing

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the importance of authenticity in performance, whether in music or comedy. Jack emphasizes his disdain for artists who either overly project a "nice guy" image or adopt a cynical persona, advocating instead for genuine connections with the audience.

Jack Antonoff [06:10]: "I'm annoyed by both. The show in all, whether it's comedy or art, I'm pretty much uninterested in anyone selling themselves as a nice guy or a piece of shit."

Rachel Antonoff adds to this discourse, critiquing the "nice guy industry" in comedy and underscoring the value of nuanced expressions over binary characterizations.

Songwriting and Producing Process

Jack delves into his creative process, highlighting the intrinsic connection he feels with songwriting and producing. He discusses how his approach remains consistent regardless of the audience size, whether performing for a small venue or a massive arena. Jack underscores the fleeting nature of inspiration and the challenges of maintaining creative momentum.

Jack Antonoff [14:21]: "I feel like my life is exactly the same. The context of it has just changed."

He also touches upon the emotional highs experienced when a lyric or melody perfectly captures a feeling or story, comparing it to a sense of owning the world momentarily.

Jack Antonoff [41:11]: "When I get a good lyric, I feel like I own the world for one second."

Personal Reflections and Family Dynamics

The conversation shifts to personal anecdotes, including Jack's relationship with his family and the influence of his upbringing in Milford, New Jersey. He reflects on the transition from a working-class environment to a more affluent setting and how it shaped his understanding of class and success.

Jack Antonoff [35:52]: "Every city in America, there's different parts of the town and you experience wealth and the people who have it and don't have it in different ways."

Rachel shares a heartfelt memory of attending a Taylor Swift concert with her family, where Jack performed. She questions the impact of such large-scale performances on children, prompting Jack to express his concerns about exposing future generations to the pressures of fame and performance.

Rachel Antonoff [32:57]: "And I'm like, okay, that's weird for me with my daughter. How is it for you if you ever have children?"

Reworking the Theme Song

Towards the end of the episode, Jack and Rachel collaborate on reworking the podcast's theme song. They experiment with new lyrics and melodies, infusing a more optimistic tone to reflect the journey they've undertaken since the pandemic.

Rachel Antonoff [51:59]: "We’re working it out because it’s not done. We’re working it out one on one. Cause there’s always a bit more jokes we can explore. They’re not all gonna score. But we’re gonna try one more."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with warm exchanges between Mike, Jack, Rachel, and Margaret Qualley, emphasizing the deep-rooted friendships and collaborative spirit that define their relationships. They reminisce about past performances, share laughs over old jokes, and express excitement for future projects and charitable endeavors.

Jack Antonoff [54:10]: "It's the best night of the year."

Notable Quotes

• Jack Antonoff [00:37]: "People's personal opinions on the concept of success colors so much."
• Jack Antonoff [06:10]: "I'm annoyed by both. The show in all, whether it's comedy or art, I'm pretty much uninterested in anyone selling themselves as a nice guy or a piece of shit."
• Jack Antonoff [14:21]: "I feel like my life is exactly the same. The context of it has just changed."
• Jack Antonoff [41:11]: "When I get a good lyric, I feel like I own the world for one second."
• Rachel Antonoff [51:59]: "We’re working it out because it’s not done. We’re working it out one on one. Cause there’s always a bit more jokes we can explore. They’re not all gonna score. But we’re gonna try one more."

Final Thoughts

Episode 146 offers listeners an intimate glimpse into Jack Antonoff's creative mind, his unwavering commitment to authenticity, and the enduring bonds of friendship that sustain him. Through candid conversations and collaborative creativity, Mike Birbiglia and Jack Antonoff explore the intricacies of being a prolific artist in today's fast-paced world.

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Transcript

[Jack Antonoff]

People's personal opinions on the concept of success colors so much. I was saying this to someone. I had an interview today with Billboard and the person was like, this thing I get a lot. They're like, you do so many things. And I was like, well, I really don't. You know, I think what you're reflecting on is that maybe you find it awkward how hungry I am, you know, because when I was 22 and I was in Steel Train and I was producing my friends records and riding and touring in a van that I would attach the trailer myself all around the country, no one was like, you do so much. They were just like, get it, you know, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Jack Antonov. Jack, of course was on the podcast years ago, but now he's back, he's in the studio. A lot has happened with Jack Antonov. He is a very busy person. For starters, he got married to the great actress Margaret Qualley. I was at the wedding last summer. We talk about that on the show today. That's a huge life shift. He's made a whole bunch of albums with his band Bleachers, with Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey and Bruce Springsteen and St. Vincent. And the list goes on and on and on. He won the Grammy for Producer of the year three years in a row. I'm speechless. I've known jack for years, 20 years since before he was producer of the year. And he's been in so many bands. He was in band called Steel Train. That's when I met him. He was in a band called Fun. Now he's in a band called Bleachers who I love. Their two recent albums are so fantastic. One of them is self titled Bleachers. The other one is a rendition of their first album called Stranger Desired. And it is beautiful. It's like stripped down versions of the original songs. I just love it. Bleachers will be. It's sold out, but it's exciting to talk about. He's going to be playing Madison Square Garden with Bleachers this, this Friday. I'm going, maybe I'll see you there. If you see me, just go Tell your friends, tell your enemies and I'll know. I'll know you heard me here. Bleachers is on tour right now. They've been going like all over the place. You're up and obviously I'm on tour right now. I've got the Please Stop the Ride tour. We just recently announced some shows in West Palm beach at the Kravis Center. It's just a Little.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Just a little.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's like a 300 seat black box theater there at the Kravitz Center. I'm really excited about it. It's Thanksgiving weekend, November 29 and 30. Tickets are burpigs.com of course. I will also be in Philadelphia in October. I'll be in Minneapolis. I'll be in Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Illinois. Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh. Come on. Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville. Charleston, South Carolina. Again, I said this on the last podcast. I'm making a New York City announcement very, very soon. So, Jo, join the mailing list to be the first to know, because those New York shows sell out so quick. New York City announcement for March. And then I'm going to make an announcement about a bunch of other places like California and Iowa and maybe Vermont, maybe western Massachusetts. I don't know why I'm saying this when it's not actually public, but that's what's coming. I hope you enjoy this episode with Jack Antonov as much as I did. We just go really deep on process. We make fun of each other a lot. It's a lot like the Pete Holmes episode. Just know it is all pure love. Thanks for tuning in today. Enjoy my chat with the great Jack Antonoff.

[Big Mikey]

We're working it.

[Jack Antonoff]

I feel like I started this podcast and just blew up without me.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Okay, fair.

[Jack Antonoff]

Remember, I feel like I'm returning home to a space that I reckon now it's on a different floor.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Did you even tell the people who watch. What do they know it's different.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Who?

[Jack Antonoff]

The people who watch that you just moved the space to a nicer space?

[Rachel Antonoff]

No, we didn't mention it, but I.

[Jack Antonoff]

Feel I received nothing from this.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And I just listened and I listened. I did so much listening.

[Rachel Antonoff]

And you did the theme song for the show. And we're gonna rework it today. We're gonna do a new version maybe. Okay. I brought a guitar. I brought a Martin guitar.

[Jack Antonoff]

And then the thing just takes flight and everyone listens to it.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Right.

[Jack Antonoff]

It's Big Mikey from my band. The other day was like, have you heard Birbiglia's podcast? And I felt like it was like similar to Sunbeam. Like, like, do you know Rachel Antonoff? And I want to go, how can you ask me that? This is like that scene in Wayne's World when where it becomes over commercialized. Wayne's World goes corporate. The fact that there's mugs like, how do you even make it?

[Rachel Antonoff]

But we're not corporate. It's an independent podcast. We're not.

[Jack Antonoff]

Who made these?

[Rachel Antonoff]

We did.

[Jack Antonoff]

Oh.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We just went to a merch company. The same way that your New Jersey's finest New Yorker hat is made by all companies.

[Jack Antonoff]

That doesn't feel corporate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God.

[Jack Antonoff]

Did I blaze too quickly into our actual relationship?

[Rachel Antonoff]

No, No. I like our actual relationship. I'm gonna bring people up to speed.

[Jack Antonoff]

But people might not understand.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Jack and I are old friends and we burn each other. Not unlike myself and Pete Holmes. So if you know the Pete Holmes episodes.

[Jack Antonoff]

No, it's in jest. I like the idea of when I'm around.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Being in jest.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah. When I'm around people that know you of presenting that there's, like, a darker spirit in there. Just because Mike has made such a. Mike is a nice guy, and there's nothing better than rooting out someone who is saying they're a nice guy. So I spend a lot of time planting seeds that aren't sure about you.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I think I agree with you, though. I'm annoyed by the nice guy industry in comedy. Well, it's tough, and I don't. I always try to fight against it.

[Jack Antonoff]

I'm annoyed by both. The show in all, whether it's comedy or art, I'm. I'm pretty much uninterested in anyone selling themselves as a nice guy or a piece of shit. Even when people are like, you know what? Fuck it, I'm a piece of shit now. I'm kind of like. It's a bit all lacking nuance to me, so I don't like either.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I agree.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah. And I know a lot of comedians these days are like, fuck it, I'm a piece of shit. And it's like, that sucks. Yeah. And then when someone's currency is that they're a great person, I'm like, that's obnoxious too.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

So, okay. When you and I met in, like, 1971, we met in the aughts. We did. For real.

[Jack Antonoff]

We met at Bonnaroo.

[Rachel Antonoff]

And I remember we had kind of a flirty hello.

[Jack Antonoff]

Flirty hello.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Do you remember at the craft services at Bonnaroo?

[Jack Antonoff]

Yes.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We were putting barbecue sauce on each other's faces. You mean Rachel?

[Jack Antonoff]

And licking it off.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Possibly licking it off.

[Jack Antonoff]

And we had sex.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We made love.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

In barbecue sauce. And it was beautiful.

[Jack Antonoff]

This part's true. At one point, it was me, you, and Louis Black were talking, and I remember thinking, like, whoa. Like, you know, I don't know comedians. And you guys were like, just like. I think when comedians talk, they do this, like, overly, like, sort of, like, seriousness. And it was the first time I've witnessed it. And now I've seen you do it with. Many, many times. You know, I don't know if I talk to musicians a certain way, but it's almost like the idea of being funny is so far from the. Do you know what I mean at all?

[Rachel Antonoff]

This is one of my questions for you about music.

[Jack Antonoff]

What?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Because you're producing so many things. You're producing your albums, you're producing other people's albums. You listen to so much music. How do you relax?

[Jack Antonoff]

Because everybody else listens to music without music. I relax with tv.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Tv.

[Jack Antonoff]

I listen to music. Well, I don't really listen to music if I'm not feeling it. There's a nice thing about my job is it's not. I don't have to. I go on when I. When I feel like making things, which has been a lot lately. But after I listen to what I'm doing, I'm really separate from things. Like, I pretty much only listen to the stuff I'm working on. And then I go home. And last night we watched GI Jane. We watched a little bit of Rocky. I'm excited for Severance to come back. I can really watch any.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You and I have talked at length about. I think you should leave.

[Jack Antonoff]

It's the greatest.

[Rachel Antonoff]

So funny.

[Jack Antonoff]

It's the greatest. I think you should leave. Does to me what like Adam Sandler did, I think, when I was in Niner, where it's like, it changes the way we speak.

[Rachel Antonoff]

All right, we're gonna get back to.

[Jack Antonoff]

Music in a second.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Because it's.

[Jack Antonoff]

This is the one thing that I give you full permission to cut up and use as a salacious clip to get people's attention. You ready? Thank you.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yep.

[Jack Antonoff]

I'm not gonna say the name of the person. All right.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Okay.

[Jack Antonoff]

But I was with actually a group of people, and I was in a moving vehicle. Right. And I was like. It had a TV in it. And I was like. Everyone was like, what should we watch? And I was like, trust me. Let's put on Coffin Flop. Have you guys seen that? They were like, no, we haven't seen it. Put it on. And we put it on. And it was in my adult life, one of the only times that I ever felt truly sad and small. And they didn't think it was funny.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, no.

[Jack Antonoff]

And they made fun of me for thinking it was funny.

[Rachel Antonoff]

No.

[Jack Antonoff]

And one day, I'll tell you who it was.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Barack Obama. Well, might as well.

[Jack Antonoff]

Might as well have been. Yeah. No, it wasn't it was Hillary.

[Rachel Antonoff]

And that's what she lost.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

That's why she lost.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

One day I'll explain who it was when I feel ready to it. Wow. To do so. And publicly or just privately. But I'll never forgive them.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, my God.

[Jack Antonoff]

I'll never forget them. For two things. Mostly, what I wouldn't forget them for is not thinking Coffin Flop is funny. Because if you don't think that's funny, I don't know how we could relate as people.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, sure.

[Jack Antonoff]

A, but then B, to shame someone. Right. Anyway, one day I'll tell you who shamed me for Coffin Flop and fuck them, man.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, wow. That's interesting.

[Jack Antonoff]

Them.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You don't have a lot of them energy.

[Jack Antonoff]

No, it takes a lot to. That was the one of the few times someone made me feel small. Wow. I don't mind if people disagree with me or don't like me. I just don't. But I don't like when anyone makes someone else feel small, which unfortunately, we spend a lot of time doing to each other. But I like it when you do it.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, good.

[Jack Antonoff]

Your speech at my wedding was. I mean, I don't know if I'll ever recover.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I'm going to read some of it.

[Jack Antonoff]

Did you bring it?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, I printed it out.

[Jack Antonoff]

Did you?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Are you serious?

[Jack Antonoff]

Are you joking?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I printed it out just in case.

[Jack Antonoff]

I didn't even know that. It seems like I would have been.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Leading with me reading some of these. We can cut them out if you want. When I look at Jack and Margaret, just superficially, just their appearance, it really speaks to the power of music.

[Jack Antonoff]

I mean, I guess the reason why I like it and it doesn't make me feel bad is mean as it technically is. And I want to say that I really like the way I look, Mike, is because it's so smart and it's so brilliant that I can't even make fun of you.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Jack's parents are amazing. Rick and Shira. I've never met two parents who feel more invited. I don't know if people would get that. They're overbearing. Their parents are overbearing. I love them. I love Rick and Shira. I think of them like family. Yeah, they're a bit much.

[Jack Antonoff]

For who? Not for me, for me, for you. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, they're just around. I don't leave my parents in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, and just upload porn to their computer.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Margaret, you're beautiful, like a classic statue at a Parisian museum. And Jack, you're like the Security guard at that museum.

[Jack Antonoff]

Anti Semitic.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, my God. Just is.

[Jack Antonoff]

It just is.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Are security guards Jewish? Often Jewish, yeah. Okay. Apologies to the. To the listeners at the Grammys, Jack won producer of the year. And with his friends, he won least replies to urgent text messages award with the hit single I totally forgot you had a baby that fucking killed with your friends so hard.

[Jack Antonoff]

It's something I still argue about with people. I don't think. I don't think. Like, whenever someone's like, I texted you, I'm like, I got it.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Like, I don't think this is an outrage.

[Jack Antonoff]

This is not an outrage.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Okay?

[Jack Antonoff]

I think we all have to do our own. Like, if I text you.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

If I'm like, I'm bleeding, I think you should write back.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Right.

[Jack Antonoff]

If I text you, I think there is a period of time that is or isn't rude.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I think we disagree on that period. And I think I disagree with a lot of people because I've gotten this criticism before.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

But if I get your message, do you think I have to respond right away?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I mean, it's a modern challenge.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It's a challenge of modern times. I don't think anybody knows. There's no etiquette.

[Jack Antonoff]

But everyone's mad at me about it.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, but kids are mad at you because they don't know. Like, in my case, it's like there are days where I'm like, wait, are Jack and I still friends?

[Jack Antonoff]

That's insane.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, but it's like, that's how you feel sometimes. No, you're like, if he doesn't write back, are we friends?

[Jack Antonoff]

I write back. And we also have long conversations. We do real catch ups.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I know we do real catch ups.

[Jack Antonoff]

Would you rather me to respond to every dumb thing you write me about one of your. About one of your comedian friends?

[Rachel Antonoff]

One of my comedian friends never write me. I never text you about one of my comedian friends.

[Jack Antonoff]

Some gripe you have with a close comedian friend.

[Rachel Antonoff]

That's not real.

[Jack Antonoff]

No.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I feel you're paraphrasing my movies.

[Jack Antonoff]

You know what also bothers me? When I call someone and then they write back five minutes. Yeah. And I'm like, that's a power move. But I'm like, the assumption that I'm free in five minutes. Right, right.

[Rachel Antonoff]

All right. So when I met you, you were traveling around the country in a van and with Steel Train, your first band.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You've had Steel Train. Fun bleachers. Those are your band. Those are all three bands that you were in.

[Jack Antonoff]

There was one before It. Oh, there's one before that, but we only did one tour in high school. Yeah. What?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Okay, from when I met you, when you were in Steel train, in like 2005, 2006. And now what in your life is different? What's the same?

[Jack Antonoff]

I feel like my life is exactly the same. The context of it has just. Or like the outfit it's in has changed. Like, I think one thing I love about songwriting and producing and performing, and I wonder if you feel this way about touring is like this. Like this, like, deep soul thing that I do, right? This, like, thing buzzing inside me is totally unchanged.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

If I play to five people or 50,000 people, I'm doing the exact same thing, you know, it's the same exact thing. The connection is the same, but then everything sort of changes around it. Songwriting is the most unchanged thing. If someone. It's like writing for you. If you were trying to write another hour or something like this, right. If someone was like, I want to invest a trillion dollars into you writing an hour, you'd be like, thanks. There's not one thing you could do to make your hour better. You don't need to hire anyone. That's what songwriting is. And essentially, as much as I enjoy working in nice studios, it's the same thing with producing. It's like the act of producing is complicated, but like songwriting producing, the most debased version of it is like you hear something in your head or feel it in your body, and then you have to take this thing and then make it something that someone could hit, play on.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Right.

[Jack Antonoff]

Dumbest way I could put it. But the truth, I don't need a hundred engineers. It wouldn't help. It would actually hurt. And so I love. It's same thing with the band. If we're playing biggest show ever, if we're playing for three people, our goal to make it feel like the last night on Earth remains. And so as much as my life has changed outwardly, in many ways, the things that I spend 99% of my day doing.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

This is what I love about producing, writing, and touring. Although the outfit has changed, the soul of them is exactly the same. And there is nothing I could do to make myself any. I just feel like no different than I was when I was a kid writing or in my 20s or now I'm just sort of there, hoping to grab it, wondering if I've written my last song.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And I think that's interesting. Goes for you too. Like, people write their last song, write their last film, you know, Stop being prolific as a comic or a writer, often before they die.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And it's a really harsh fact. Some don't.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Most ice the cake.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Towards the end.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Some, you know, destroy the whole thing, unfortunately, and. But. But most just sort of put it away and let it be on display. And I don't know one writer who doesn't feel that every song they wrote may be the last one.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And that's a really jarring and, like, humbling feeling. So sorry to give the longest answer.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Ever, but it's great.

[Jack Antonoff]

My life has changed in so many ways. Finally, you're saying something I know, not just trolling. My life has changed in so many ways, but I don't know, you've known me for. I also think people's personal opinions on the concept of success colors so much. I was saying this to someone. I had an interview today with Billboard, and the person was like, this is something I get a lot. They're like, you do so many things. And I was like, well, I really don't. I think what you're reflecting on is that maybe you find it awkward how hungry I am, you know, because when I was 22 and I was in Steel Train, I was producing my friends records and riding and touring in a van that I would attach the trailer myself all around the country. No one was like, you do so much. They were just like, get it? You know?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Right. Yes.

[Jack Antonoff]

And it's like, actually, I don't do that much. I Woke up at 10:45am this morning. Wow. I think people don't recognize often because there's a lot of bad actors, you know, carrying torches. But, you know, you have it too. All the people I love have it. It's like this. The thing that is buzzing inside you that you do is completely divorced from what you get back from it. And I think the thing that gives me a lot of courage and faith when I think about people that I think are great is there's no bit.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Anyone I know? I won't say names because it's not meant to be negative, but anyone I know who's got some bit going on around their work, it's like, yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it's only authenticity cuts through. And even the most cynical seeming people. Right. Like, I have no doubt that if you sat with Lou Reed. That was Lou Reed.

[Margaret Qualley]

Right.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Can you unpack what you mean by bit?

[Jack Antonoff]

You know, when I meet people who I think are doing a thing and then they're sort of doing another thing, or it's like they're playing with the audience in a way.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I think it's very fleeting to mess with your audience. You know, I think the word.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Like, in other words, like a manipulation versus a true connection.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yes. And all my favorite artists.

[Rachel Antonoff]

And you don't want.

[Jack Antonoff]

Of course not. But all my favorite artists, comedy, like Richard Pryor, for example, who's probably my favorite. Like, it's the truest connection. Even if the manipulation was some weird way of crossing lines to get to the point where he could say something so subversive that you were with him, even if he was playing with it. At the heart of it was like this, like, what I get from, like a man who just like, needed to say some truths.

[Margaret Qualley]

Right.

[Jack Antonoff]

That in front of a lot of people. I don't know if you agree.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It was my favorite, probably my number one of all time.

[Jack Antonoff]

And so I guess what I'm saying is when I've come across people that seem to be projecting something that isn't just something that they think they want to project or play with, that isn't necessarily just deeply coming from them, it always kind of falls apart. And then these characters who just are, then just are, and then eventually people find out about it.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Is that how you choose who you work with? Because I can imagine your just phone is ringing off the hook. I'm not being, like, overly generous, but, like, everyone on the planet wants to work with you.

[Jack Antonoff]

You call.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, I do call. You call and you don't reply.

[Jack Antonoff]

Sometimes this is a bad narrative reply.

[Rachel Antonoff]

No, but. But honestly, like, how do you decide? Because I think even, like, again, I don't want to name names because I don't want to have it be name droppy. So we're being clickbaity, but like, everyone brothers. Well, everyone you work with.

[Jack Antonoff]

Turner Overdrive.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Well, everyone you work with like that. Like this week you're with at the VMAs with Sabrina Carpenter. And that's someone who I'm like, oh, she's a great musician. But I would be surprised when you were working with her. Just like, I don't know, with someone like that. Are you, like.

[Jack Antonoff]

What do you mean, surprise? I can tell you the story with her. I haven't been, like, listening to her for a long time. I always thought she was brilliant. She's like one of these artists who's like, a lot of the story of this past year, a lot of people really come into the light. Have been working for a long time.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah, I think.

[Jack Antonoff]

I think we're moving back into A mode of, like, real people responding to, like a level of expertise of someone who's been like, grinding away at their craft. Interesting. She's, like, been working forever and getting, you know, every time she put mid album out here and crystallizing this, like, vibe and this sound that's so specific. And then we met, actually, she was at a bleacher show and I, like. I was like, whoa, she's here. And then like two weeks later, we kind of like randomly met at this thing and we had like an official meeting and we got together and we were able to move very quickly, making things and. But I. But, yeah, I can recognize it for me personally in instant. Just, oh, that's someone who's absolutely brilliant. Brilliant writer, brilliant singer, and is just sort of, you know, like, like grinding towards something, not giving a shit what is going on. And it's like the only quality I really care about, right, is if someone's like, I got a thing I'm doing. Yeah, I need to do it. I want to make it like the most amazing version of itself. And I just, like, do not give a shit.

[Rachel Antonoff]

What's exactly what we were just talking about, which is like. It's like manipulating an audience versus, like, connecting with an audience.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah, totally.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It seems like that's. I mean. I mean, if we're really trying to zero in on what it is. It seems like that's what you're talking about.

[Jack Antonoff]

Well, I don't.

[Rachel Antonoff]

But correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jack Antonoff]

No, it is.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Steer me towards. Closer to what you're saying.

[Jack Antonoff]

Well, I think the act of performance with comedy or music. Right. Like, cynicism can't exist even if you use it as a tool. That's just a tool. But, like, it can't exist because it just takes so much to be there.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

It's the opposite of the Internet. Right. Like, that's why I love touring so much. It's like no one comes to the show, cynically. No one's like, I'm going to, like, you know, buy this ticket, which, you know, because of the powers that be will be fucking nightmare to buy, and, like, test the boundaries of my soul to just buy this ticket. And then I'm going to, you know, leave my house, which is honestly one of the hardest things to do, and, you know, go into this place and, you know, just do this thing which takes so much effort. No one does that cynically. Right. It's the problem with the Internet. There's no barrier of entry. So we just, you know, we get shit because it asks for shit.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Live events ask for so much of you.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, I know.

[Jack Antonoff]

They ask for so much of your time, your funds, your. They ask so much of you. So when we all get there, when I get to the show, and God damn it, as a performer, it's like, I'm not rolling in. In a limo. You know what I mean? Like, it demands so much of us, you know? What? Touring?

[Rachel Antonoff]

No, I.

[Jack Antonoff]

All levels. It demands so much of you. And there's a crew and there's all these people that have been worked, you know, tirelessly to put on that show.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Jack Antonoff]

So when we get there, I am so stripped of cynicism. Yeah, the audience is so stripped of cynicism. I just did Japan, Germany, France, and the UK in, like, two and a half weeks at home to make those shows happen. My crew, myself, my voice, all of it. Like, there's just no fucking part of me that gets to that venue and is like, fuck this, because I would go home. It's the easy choice. It would be so easy. When you're in the middle of a tour, when you're writing and you're like, against the wall, it is so easy to jerk off, go home, watch Netflix, order food. More than ever, the world is begging you to just simplify. So I love it. Because that barrier of entry is the crux of humanity, which we lose more and more of in modernity. Right. In older days, everything had a larger barrier of entry. You want to go somewhere, it's pain in the ass. You want to eat, you got to go get the food. You want to see a friend, you got to go see that friend's face, or else you're never going to see their face. Big Bear.

[Rachel Antonoff]

The buy in is huge.

[Jack Antonoff]

The buy in is huge. And so everything I do or I spend my day doing starts with that buy in.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, yeah, by the way, I'm. I'm coming to Madison Square Garden. I. To see you at bleachers at Madison Square Garden.

[Jack Antonoff]

You better.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I'm going to introduce you if you want me to, you know.

[Jack Antonoff]

What are you watching?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I don't know. Well, you were, like, set aside the date, like, six months ago.

[Jack Antonoff]

I want you to be there because you're one of the. There's not a lot of people in my life that cared when no one came to the shows. No, seriously?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I can count them on me.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Rachel, Rick, Shira, that's it.

[Jack Antonoff]

And then the band members. You always thought it was something to write home about, and so I. I've.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Always thought you were great. And I still always. I still think you're great. I still. I think the new album's amazing. I think Stranger Desire, Desired, Desired is. I think it might be my favorite.

[Jack Antonoff]

Interesting because it's weird.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I love the. It was the original Bleachers album.

[Jack Antonoff]

This is my debut. Right.

[Rachel Antonoff]

And you decided to go back.

[Jack Antonoff]

My question is, I see it as a companion piece.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Can we talk about it? As you took your songs, you revisited them. Non, musically, as a layperson, I would say you stripped them down, arguably. Okay, yeah. But then it's a reductive concept, but then built them up.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Margaret Qualley]

Right.

[Rachel Antonoff]

So it's like you ripped out, I would say, like you correct me on this, you ripped out the synth, you ripped out like maybe the bass. And then you put back in, I would say symphonic elements a little bit.

[Jack Antonoff]

Well, I just. I really struggled. I was like, this is 10 year anniversary coming up for this debut album that means so much to me. And everyone's always celebrating anniversaries nowadays. And I was just like, it doesn't mean anything.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Who gives a shit?

[Jack Antonoff]

And then I was like, it's such a big deal. Oh, my God, a decade, you know, And I just kept vacillating. I was like, do I do, like, do I release some demos? Eh, it's kind of basic. I was just trying to think of what to do. And before I knew it, I just went to the studio. And sometimes I go to the studio. I know you're like this when you just write and you just sort of like, it's not free associating, but you just do what you do, you know, I'm just sort of like, you do what comes out. Yeah. I'm like, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, all right, I'll just have a guitar and start picking around some of the songs. And I was like, oh, that's kind of nice. And I was like, put some horns on it. The makeup of the band now. And yeah, I took it apart and put it. And before I knew it, I thought. And then what's nice about letting yourself just be and make what you make is then it comes to you. I was like, oh, that first album, A Strange Desire, you know, so bold, my debut, I was so anxious. I needed all this production. It was this strange desire to make that work when I was technically in another successful band. It's kind of the whole thing of it.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And then I get to look back, knowing what I know now and say, oh, you know, a debut is really about looking for Your people. It wasn't just a strange desire. It was a stranger desired. Was looking for strangers to tell my.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Story to a stranger.

[Jack Antonoff]

And that all just came from just being able to just mess around. But, yeah, it's nice to make companion work or recontextualize things knowing, you know, because I'm in the future, too.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I'm in the future also. It's also, yes, I'm in the future also is one of my first jokes.

[Jack Antonoff]

I do a lot of. I won't say Dog Days callbacks.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Dog years.

[Jack Antonoff]

Dog ears. Was Dog Ears good? What are the highlights from Dog? Snapple on Dog Ears. Yeah. Snapples on Dog Ears.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I'll perform Snapple for anyone who doesn't know it.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Okay, got it.

[Jack Antonoff]

So I was a heroin dealer outside my building. And you know, like, they're always like, you know, like, you want to. You know, if you like heroin. This is terrible.

[Rachel Antonoff]

This is terrible.

[Jack Antonoff]

Hey, forget it. I remember if I were a rapist.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I would have a bed. I would have a bed like that. What I should have said was nothing. What I did say was, you'd be surprised. Is that Dog Days?

[Rachel Antonoff]

That's from Dog Ears.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Dog Ears.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

What's another Dog Ears classic.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I had a joke back then where I go, I was on the subway and there was a guy crying over a book. And I leaned over, I go, you don't know how to read either, huh?

[Jack Antonoff]

That's pretty funny. What's the next album?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I thought this.

[Jack Antonoff]

What's the next Two Drink Mike. What's the highlight of Two Drink Mike? What are the hits? Gary just hits me, dad.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It's like, I'm. I'm. I'm looking for a woman who loves me for my money, but doesn't understand math. I mean, it's like.

[Jack Antonoff]

Would you say it's all joke jokes after tutoring? Mike is when you start getting into.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Don't deflect.

[Jack Antonoff]

Deflect what?

[Rachel Antonoff]

You're deflecting in my career.

[Jack Antonoff]

Oh, people.

[Rachel Antonoff]

People know.

[Jack Antonoff]

Do they? Do they? Or is this audience sort of like the Netflix ears? Because some of us were here before the Netflix ears. Yeah, some of us were here before the Drama Desk Awards and Broadway.

[Rachel Antonoff]

This is hell.

[Jack Antonoff]

Some of us were here before, you know, Ira Glass.

[Rachel Antonoff]

All right.

[Jack Antonoff]

I was here before Ira Glass.

[Unknown]

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[Rachel Antonoff]

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[Rachel Antonoff]

One of the most emotional moments in my life was with you. I want to say like last May, we were at MetLife seeing Taylor Swift. And you and I were together with my daughter.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

My wife Jenny, our daughter Una. And we're like, we're with Jack, you know, our friend Jack. And Una of course loves you. But then you went up on stage in front of like 80,000 people in the same getaway car.

[Jack Antonoff]

Was that tough for Una?

[Rachel Antonoff]

This is what I wanted to unpack.

[Jack Antonoff]

Honest question.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I don't think it was tough. I think it was. It made me very contemplative because then you came back and then we sat and watched the rest of the show and danced and had a great time. And you were just like everybody else who enjoyed Taylor's concert, except that you just performed in front of 80,000 people. And I'm like, okay, that's weird for me with my daughter. How is it for you if you ever have children? Do you think about that?

[Jack Antonoff]

You know, I think about it all the time because I grew up feeling really special that I made music. I felt, you know, not a lot of people I knew who made music as a small group of people. And I loved what I did and I felt really special about it. I also felt really misunderstood and hurt all the time. But I also felt like I had this really interesting secret and I was really driven by that deep feeling misunderstood by my surrounding world. So I really wouldn't wish that kind of sandpaper on someone. But I also get really worried about how this is slight vacillate. This is slightly off topic, but just like, you have a child, right? Maybe this is a crazy question. Do you ever worry that, that, like, everything's gotten too nice?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Like, yeah, sure.

[Jack Antonoff]

Like, like, like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's part of the question.

[Jack Antonoff]

Like, for sure. I was really like, I got hit by a teacher, which is not good. I don't want anyone. I don't want Uno or anyone to get hit by a teacher.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And maybe this is just my experience, but, you know, sometimes Joker Margaret, you talk about this stuff. It's like all that, like, rough misunderstanding feeling so, you know, fueled so much of what I do. I have a friend who I was telling this to and they were like, yeah, life's hard.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Life's hard.

[Jack Antonoff]

Everyone's going to be.

[Rachel Antonoff]

No, no. Well, that's the thing. Life's hard.

[Jack Antonoff]

But, sorry, that was a bit irrelevant. To get back to your point, there's such a difference, which is what I think speaks to, like, the problem with like, some people who like, you know, grow up in LA and things like that. There's such a difference between money and power in an industry. So, for example, like, I grew up, I was raised in Milford, New Jersey, which is a very working class town. And then I was like, maybe like eight or nine, I don't remember. We moved to a much nicer town. It was a totally different vibe. And that's where I was first encountered. I'm sure you had this growing up, you know, the makeup of different towns in Massachusetts. That's where I was like, oh, that family has a lot of money. You know, I understood the concept of money, which at that time was, you know, certain kids in school would have certain shoes or whatever, and then you start to understand class in a way. Right. Especially in a state like New Jersey where every town is like. You go one town, yeah. You're in Alpine, which is one of the richest towns in the country. And then you're in, you know, two towns over and it's incredibly working class. Next town, really, you know, serious poverty. And I think Massachusetts is similar.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, I think so.

[Jack Antonoff]

Where you just. You see it growing up. So everywhere in the world, you know, every. Every city in the world. America. Every city in America, there's different parts of the town and you experience wealth and the people who have it and don't have it in different ways. But I didn't know anyone who knew anyone.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Whereas it must be so weird. And I don't. I don't know what this will be like, but if, you know, to grow up in a place where it's like, you know, people who know people who know people who know people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Jack Antonoff]

And like, you know, like. I remember when I got into music, you know, there was nothing to do. I was just got on the fucking road. No one knew what to do or how to do it. I agree. More like from like the New Jersey scene. There was like a kid who played my demo to Richard and Stephanie, who had Drive Thru Records at the time. And I. And I literally started my career but, you know, signed one of the, you know, record deals. One of those record deals where it was like there was nothing and I was kind of locked in and just toured for years. And that great divide between me, my band and anyone who could help us get anywhere was such a blessing in hindsight because I was just forced to go grind. So I don't. To answer your question, I don't. It's bizarre because I. My future kids and she do whatever they wanna do, but I wouldn't be able to give them, I guess, that kind of anonymous existence. And you must think about that and how bizarre.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It's so strange.

[Jack Antonoff]

But you know what? This is not about me. Let me flip it on you. Are you ever somewhere that you're comfortable in because you understand the context and they're people you like and the situation you like. But, you know, like Una seeing me play in front of 80,000 people and then coming back in tent, but then you have a moment where you're like, is this bad for a child's psyche?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I think about it all the time.

[Jack Antonoff]

What do you do? Do you try to explain it to you?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I just always try to contextualize it.

[Jack Antonoff]

How do. Like, what does it look like?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Like, I was in the Vatican. We were in the Vatican.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

And had all these cool tours and things like that. And I had to be like, well, this is like, the religion that I was raised in. And we were never. I never came somewhere like this and that kind of thing.

[Jack Antonoff]

I was an altar boy. The answer is no.

[Rachel Antonoff]

So do drink Mike. But yeah, And I just try to contextualize it, and hopefully some of that makes sense. It's so complex, though. That's why I was asking you, because I don't.

[Jack Antonoff]

I don't have kids, but I think about all the time because I just felt. I don't know. I loved, in hindsight, the feeling of wanting to break out of my space. But I guess my kids will have that in their own way. I don't know.

[Rachel Antonoff]

When your dad Rick played guitar with you on Siren Live, I view it as the greatest example of reverse nepotism I've ever seen in show business.

[Jack Antonoff]

Him and Rob Grant are the great nepo daddies of our time.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Why do you feel so bad for your dad?

[Jack Antonoff]

Why do you feel bad for my dad?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I don't. I don't.

[Jack Antonoff]

Oh, my dad. You know, actually. You want a completely honest answer?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I love community and family, as you know. I mean, my family's just deeply around.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yes.

[Jack Antonoff]

And we like it that way. And bands are. We just. My existence is.

[Rachel Antonoff]

They come to, like, all your shows, and they have since Steel Train. Since I first saw you, like, 20 years ago.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah. They're not. They just. We just love to be together. Even when we hate to be together, we're just together. That's that. I think dude's in Italian. There's a similar thing, right?

[Margaret Qualley]

Maybe.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I don't know.

[Jack Antonoff]

But we're like Olive Garden Italian.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You're gonna do all my jokes.

[Jack Antonoff]

These are all Mike jokes.

[Rachel Antonoff]

All my jokes from Do Drink Mike.

[Jack Antonoff]

But my dad, the real meat and potatoes, actually, true and sweet answer is my dad was brilliant. Is brilliant. Guitar player, played ragtime guitar. Studied under the great Reverend Gary Davis Jr. In New Jersey.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah. And then when he graduated from college, it was. He had to cut his hair and go work at the shoe factory with his dad. They had a shoe factory called Phoenix Footwear. That was that. So my. His parents not letting him be an artist was my ticket to be an artist.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Long before my sister Died, and my life got really complicated. And then my parents were sort of like, do whatever the fuck you want. Because the household was so a wreck long before that. My dad would always say, do what you want. Do what you want. You can live at home. My parents, my mom, my dad. You can live at home. We'll support you. I was never. I lived home Till I was 27. As you know, my parents never made me pay rent. Yeah, I think the neighbors probably thought I was a loser. Didn't care. And so to have him on stage with us now is. It's a full circle of that moment.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Do you want me to play with you next time you are a musical guest on US Now.

[Jack Antonoff]

No.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Why not?

[Jack Antonoff]

Do you want the real answer?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Sure.

[Jack Antonoff]

I don't know if you would gel with the band. Like, I feel like when you play guitar, it's sort of like you're good, but you're also making fun of people who play guitar. I'm the guitar guy at the party. I'm going to sleep with your girlfriend.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Do you still do that?

[Rachel Antonoff]

No. I mean, it's a bit from 20 years ago.

[Jack Antonoff]

20 years ago?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yes.

[Jack Antonoff]

The media man on campus.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Media man on campus 20 years ago. Come on, keep up with the times.

[Jack Antonoff]

You want to move on from this? Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I was going to say, when you write, I didn't know I was lonely until I saw your face or take the sadness out of Saturday night or New Jersey's finest New Yorker. What do you feel?

[Jack Antonoff]

Well, when I get a good lyric, I feel like I own the world for one second.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah. When I get something that. And, you know, it's rare. Cause you write a lot, and sometimes you write. And when you get one, you just get one off. You're like. That's what I wanted to say. It's the perfect way to say it. I know no one said it like that. You know, it's like finding your, like, tiny window, right? It's like everything's like a mess, and you just find this tiny way out, and it's just. Yeah. You feel like a God for one second. Yeah. But, yeah, it's the best because it's like it cracks open another level songwriting to me. Yeah, I think it's similar for the way you write, but, like, when you get a thing, you don't just get that thing. You get access to a new level. So when you get that line, When I got. You know, I know. I was only. Till I saw your face, I was like, oh, that's. That's. Now I Can shout. I want to get better because. Because it makes sense, you know, now it's not just, you know, I'm some like mantra. Like, yes, you know, like now it's about now. There's context of being somewhere and then reflecting back and telling one's life story because you can finally deal with talking about it because you saw the thing and you know. Or like, take the sadness on Saturday night. It's like, it's so simple. Take the sadness out of Saturday night. But until I had that concept, that line in Chinatown and then the album title, I was like, what is this album? What am I trying to do here? You know? And that one line just glued it all together of like, can't it not all be fear based? Can't say more about that. Like the whole album. How dare you want more? Like I was really banging on the door of the next phase of my life and I couldn't get it right. I couldn't get it right. I wasn't in the right situations and I just wanted to have some joy, have some fucking joy without self deprecation, without it all being like a piece of shit, you know, like real fucking joy. And when I got take the Saturday night. Saturday night, I was just like, it just spoke to me and it unlocked a whole new level. But yeah, New Jersey's finest New Yorker. It's like that unlocks this verse where I want to take the piss out of myself, which unlocks the sound of the song. Because if I'm going to make fun of myself, then. Okay, then the band can be on fire. Because I can distract in these different ways. Yeah, you don't just get the line. You get like a video game. Like ding.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You get the world.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It's a lot.

[Jack Antonoff]

Not to reduce it, but it's a lot like doing a puzzle. You get that hard piece, then you're like, I found. I found. I found the yellow flower. I got the yellow flower. And like. And is the. It's like euphoric is like drugs. When you get it, what's the saddest.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You get in the process?

[Jack Antonoff]

I can get really depressed if I'm not hitting those. If I'm just like, you know, just. If I'm there, I'm out on the field and I'm playing and I'm just not connecting.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And I have to be. I have to be at this point in my life, I have to be out there on the field. Right. Like I gotta.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You gotta be in the studio.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yep.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

I gotta be chipping away at It. But, you know, sometimes, I mean, it's why I'm always blown away when anyone has ego about this stuff, because it's like, you can't do it.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

You can't just do it.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

You could try to do it, but it's. You're catching these things. You don't know when they're gonna come. But you.

[Rachel Antonoff]

What do you mean? You can't just do it. Like, it's not easy.

[Jack Antonoff]

Like, you can't just sit down and write. You can, but what you're really after comes or it doesn't.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Like, if you just, you know, went to a cabin and wrote for a week, there's no guarantee you'd come out with anything that's worth anything.

[Margaret Qualley]

Right.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You might, but isn't the idea that you're going there to be a receptor?

[Jack Antonoff]

That's what I'm saying. So that can be really frustrating. The longer. If I go a long period of time without getting one that, like, I almost. Another thing about, like, those lines are, like, a good partner song or melody is like. It's like refilling the tank a little bit. Like, if I'm on empty too long, I can get just sad. You know what it best put, it's like. It's the way that I feel myself.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

And so when I'm doing it. Well, I feel myself. It's like I'm doing the thing I'm meant to do. And then when I'm not accessing it a lot, I can. Yes. It's depressing. Don't you get that way?

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah, if you.

[Jack Antonoff]

If you're not, like. Because I'm always doing it, but if I'm not hitting that thing, then I just feel a little useless. But then it ends and I get something, and then it picks me back up.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah. I don't know that I never. I ever not feel that way.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I feel like the moments of, like, being buzzy about something are so brief.

[Jack Antonoff]

They're very brief. No, they're very brief.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I mean, if I'm being completely honest.

[Jack Antonoff]

No, same.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Like, I think, weirdly, like, a lot of the artistic process is like, a feeling of malaise with moments of, oh, my God.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah. That's why I'm so shocked when people think I'm, like, prolific or something. Cause I'm like, you're so prolific, but it's not my experience.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You fucking produce, like, 10 albums a year. You're like producer of the year, like, five times in a row.

[Jack Antonoff]

That's not my experience. To your point, my experience Is like I can pull myself out of it and realize that something happens if I stay at it. But I feel often like, yeah, like these fleeting moments of like, whoa, there it is. And then a lot of my day is protecting that thing.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

Finishing it, you know, finishing it as well.

[Rachel Antonoff]

But you have to be able to acknowledge. And I'm not doing this. I'm not saying this to be nice. You have to acknowledge that side by side, your work output is bigger than other musicians. Work output.

[Jack Antonoff]

No, that's not true. This is where I push back. I know plenty of writers and producers and people and bands. I don't actually do much more. There's a lot of people that do way more than me.

[Rachel Antonoff]

What time do you go to bed?

[Jack Antonoff]

My way of doing it, it deviates depending on if situations. But I like to be in the studio around 10 and finish at like 5, walk somewhere, meet Margaret for dinner, go home and really shut it down. And I always try to write in the morning. That's what I wrote that song Good Morning about that kind of. But I always find that there is something circular about like, you go to bed, you wake up, you've seen no things, you've heard no things, you've seen.

[Rachel Antonoff]

No things, you've heard no things.

[Jack Antonoff]

And there is a. There is a freshness to that perspective that is new. It's the same. I love New Year's. I love New Year's Eve, New Year's Day. I like. I like these things. I like the end of the month, at the beginning of the month, on the 1st of the month. I feel different than on the 30th or 31st or whatever it is. I think these are just like, emotional facts, regardless of who want to deny them. And in. At nighttime, I am less good at thinking of accessing this thing. Yeah, I've eaten food. Food fucks me up. As soon as I eat. I'm literally like, yeah, I'm so, like, light in the morning and like, ideas are coming out of my head. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Antonoff]

Well, I always describe it as right in the morning before you're afraid of the world.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yes, right in the morning when you're still in, like, the. And there's also, like, I started noticing this thing. Like, I think we all have it. Like, I think we focus on the anxiety and depression we wake up with. Like, I know a lot of people talk about they wake up and then all of a sudden it dawns on them that they're back in their life. We all know that feeling. But there is like something about, like, I've lived another day.

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Jack Antonoff]

That is powerful too.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I agree.

[Jack Antonoff]

And it makes me feel some semblance of new again. And I've done my best writing first thing in the morning.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I heard advice recently from someone who goes, when you wake up in the morning, say out loud, this is gonna be a great day.

[Jack Antonoff]

Interesting.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I think it's pretty good.

[Jack Antonoff]

Margaret gave me a different version of that. She said, every time you get in the car, say, this is the most dangerous thing I'm going to do today.

[Rachel Antonoff]

That's a good one too.

[Jack Antonoff]

And I do.

[Unknown]

Support for Working it out comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile offers wireless for $15 a month with the purchase of a three month plan. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan. Bring your own phone number along with all of your existing contacts. Mint Mobile also offers plans for kids and seniors. Find out how easy it is to switch to Mint mobile and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month.

[Rachel Antonoff]

To get this new customer offer and.

[Unknown]

Your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com burbigs mintmobile.com Burbigs cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month. At mintmobile.com burbigs there is a $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to 15 bucks a month. This is for new customers only on the first three months plan. Speeds are slower above 40 gigabytes on the unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See mintmobile.com for details.

[Rachel Antonoff]

All right, that's. By the way, that's my guitar. It's a. It's a Martin. It's Kenneth Patten Gills Martin that I got from Gruins in Tennessee. Okay.

[Jack Antonoff]

Working it out V2.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Okay. Okay. So I wanna. I actually really want to try to do new music lyrics because people. You do the theme song to the show and the criticism of it sometimes not criticism, but is like, it's pandemic based. It was like working it out because. Working it out because it's not done. Working it out because there's no one. Well, yeah. And so. But now there's people around, etc. And so I thought I wrote Working.

[Big Mikey]

It out because it's not done.

[Jack Antonoff]

Same tune or something different.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Yeah, maybe the same tune, but maybe a little bit more major.

[Jack Antonoff]

This was so long ago.

[Big Mikey]

We're working it out cause it's not done. We're still working it out. It turned out to be pretty fun.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I think it's good.

[Jack Antonoff]

Okay.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Something like that.

[Big Mikey]

We're working it out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out one on one. And there's always a bit more jokes we can explore. They're not all gonna score. They're not all gonna score it. But we're gonna try one more.

[Rachel Antonoff]

That seemed nice.

[Jack Antonoff]

I could do better, maybe. You know, this is a true co write. You've done the lyrics. Maybe I'll record it nice in my studio. And maybe that version, which was. So we'll play heavy with the reverb. Maybe we make this a little bit sunnier to remind people how we've come out of the pandemic.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We've come a long way.

[Big Mikey]

Working it out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out one on one. Cause there's always a bit more jokes we can explore. No, they're not all gonna score. They're not all gonna score. We'll try.

[Rachel Antonoff]

That's great. My favorite part is they're not all gonna score.

[Jack Antonoff]

I can do better. So I think I got it now, so it's okay.

[Big Mikey]

We're working it out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out one on one. Cause there's always more jokes we can explore.

[Jack Antonoff]

Yeah.

[Big Mikey]

They're not all gonna score. They're not all gonna score.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Oh, but let's make more. Maybe that.

[Big Mikey]

Let's make more.

[Jack Antonoff]

Let's make more.

[Big Mikey]

They're not all gonna score.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Let's make more.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Seems nice.

[Jack Antonoff]

I.

[Rachel Antonoff]

The last thing we do is working out for a cause where we.

[Jack Antonoff]

Have you always done this?

[Margaret Qualley]

Yeah.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We donate to a nonprofit of your choice, and then we link to them in the show notes. We could do Ally Coalition, which we, you and I have done over the years many, many times together. And we are doing again in December. The annual benefit you do for the Ally Co Op.

[Jack Antonoff]

It's the best night of the year.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We are going to donate to the Ally Coalition.

[Jack Antonoff]

Are you the only person who's done every performance?

[Rachel Antonoff]

I think I've done every one.

[Jack Antonoff]

Wait, you missed one year? No, but then you made it one year.

[Rachel Antonoff]

I sprinted from Broadway and you were.

[Jack Antonoff]

You were on there.

[Rachel Antonoff]

It's crazy. Okay. I love you. Thank you for coming on.

[Jack Antonoff]

I love you.

[Rachel Antonoff]

Thank you for being the theme song for the show.

[Jack Antonoff]

New one's coming soon.

[Big Mikey]

Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's gonna do it for another episode.

[Jack Antonoff]

Of Working It Out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can follow Jack Antonoff on Instagram Ackantinoff. Bleachers will be at Madison Square Garden this Friday. Come on. Check out their latest album, the self titled One so Good and Stranger Desired. Also so good. I've been listening to both of those on a loop. I mean, they're just fantastic albums.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You can watch the full video of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This episode on our YouTube channel, ikeBriglia. Check that out and subscribe as we're going to be posting more and more videos. Check out burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Sound mix by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Hand Enough.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You might know him from the Working.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It out podcast and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Her book Little Astronaut is now an audiobook wherever audiobooks are sold. Special thanks as always to our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcast. We're so close to the 4,000 reviews on there. It's so exciting. We're four and a half years in, almost 150 episodes. They're all free. There's no paywall. Come on. You could write in the user review. You can just say what your favorite episode is. We've had Stephen Colbert and Quinta Brunson and Jimmy Kimmel and Roy Wood Jr. And John Mulaney and all these people who are fantastic. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Let's say you're in a van with your friends and you take out your phone and you decide to show them a sketch from your favorite sketch comedy show. And maybe that doesn't go over well. Here's how you recover.

[Rachel Antonoff]

You go, hey, hey.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know you didn't like that one sketch, which means you probably don't have good taste in comedy. But here is something I think we can all agree on. It's a podcast called Working It Out. Mike Birbigli talks to other comedians and other creatives about process and jokes and maybe that'll help a little bit. And then maybe they'll reconsider enjoying I Think youk Should Leave because it's really brilliant. Thanks everybody.

[Rachel Antonoff]

We're working it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

See you next time.