155. David Sedaris Returns: A Creative’s Dream and a Fact Checker’s Nightmare

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Episode 155: David Sedaris Returns: A Creative’s Dream and a Fact Checker’s Nightmare
Release Date: December 30, 2024

In Episode 155 of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, comedian and writer David Sedaris returns as a guest, engaging in a deep and humorous conversation about the intricacies of the creative process, the challenges of autobiographical writing, and the relentless pursuit of authenticity in comedy. Hosted by Mike Birbiglia, the episode delves into Sedaris's experiences, offering listeners a behind-the-scenes look at his approach to storytelling and the impact of fact-checking on creative expression.

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1. Early Career and Breakout Success

Meeting Fellow Creators and Early Challenges

David Sedaris recounts the early days of his career, highlighting the period when he worked as an elf at Macy's, a role that later inspired his famous essay, "Santaland Diaries." Sedaris explains how balancing his job with his writing ambitions required dedication and perseverance.

David Sedaris [03:19]: "No, I was an elf in 1990 and 1991."

He discusses the anticipation leading up to his breakout success when "Santaland Diaries" was featured on NPR's This American Life in 1992, transforming him from a retail worker to a celebrated literary figure.

2. Creative Process and Writing Philosophy

Consistency and Belief in Success

Sedaris emphasizes the importance of consistent work and maintaining faith in eventual success, contrasting his approach with those who confuse writing with publishing.

David Sedaris [03:41]: "I never confused writing and publishing. I just worked every day... somebody will come a knockin'."

Overcoming Creative Roadblocks

The conversation explores strategies for overcoming writer's block, such as retracing steps to identify dead ends and the willingness to discard large portions of work that don't resonate.

David Sedaris [04:05]: "Sometimes you just go back two pages and then take a different path."

3. Fact-Checking and Authenticity in Autobiographical Writing

Navigating Fact-Checks in Humor

Sedaris discusses the stringent fact-checking process at publications like The New Yorker, revealing the tension between comedic embellishment and factual accuracy. He shares anecdotes where factual inconsistencies led to changes in his essays.

David Sedaris [17:58]: "The fact checker would say, how do we know how big your penis was when you were 12? Google it."

Balancing Truth and Humor

The episode delves into the delicate balance between maintaining truthfulness and crafting humorous narratives, highlighting Sedaris's approach to "true enough" storytelling.

David Sedaris [17:48]: "True enough for you."

4. Personal Anecdotes and Stories

Vatican City Experience

Sedaris narrates his experience visiting Vatican City, sharing humorous observations about Pope Francis's speech and the interactions with fellow comedians like Chris Rock and Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

David Sedaris [07:03]: "I thought there'd be a group of maybe eight people, and we'd sit around and rap with the Pope."

Nudist Colony Visit

He reflects on a visit to a nudist colony organized by his editor, discussing the challenges of writing honestly about uncomfortable experiences.

David Sedaris [30:16]: "I didn't do things to write about them. I just... that's why I'm so glad when something happens."

5. Relationships with Fellow Comedians

Impact on Peers and Influence

Mike Birbiglia shares how David Sedaris's work influenced his own comedic journey, including introductions to literature that shaped his perspective on humor and authenticity.

Mike Birbiglia [13:21]: "Bert Kreischer is a huge fan of yours. He said, 'Your book introduced me to having a gay friend.'"

6. Charity and Giving Back

Innovative Approaches to Philanthropy

Sedaris expresses his frustration with traditional charitable donations, advocating for more meaningful and deliberate giving practices. He shares his method of personalizing donations to ensure they have a genuine impact.

David Sedaris [46:02]: "I think long and hard about who I give it to."

Mike Birbiglia discusses his own approach to supporting nonprofits by directly contributing and sharing effective methods for listeners to engage in charitable acts.

7. Reflections on Past Work and Growth

Evolving as a Writer

Sedaris reflects on his earlier works, expressing critical views on some of his past writings while acknowledging their impact on readers. He emphasizes growth through not trying too hard and trusting his audience.

David Sedaris [36:13]: "I think you get better at not trying too hard... trusting the audience."

Handling Public Perception

He candidly discusses the repercussions of his writing on personal relationships, including regret over unintended consequences, and the importance of portraying others respectfully in his narratives.

David Sedaris [39:06]: "I regret hurting anybody... I changed her name, and she was hurt by it."

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with Sedaris and Birbiglia sharing light-hearted moments and affirming their mutual respect and admiration. Sedaris's insights offer valuable lessons on creativity, resilience, and the nuanced art of storytelling.

David Sedaris [45:14]: "But they don't come back and ask you for money."

Mike Birbiglia wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with David Sedaris's work and to explore past episodes of Working It Out for more enriching conversations with other notable creatives.

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Notable Quotes:

• David Sedaris [04:05]: "Sometimes you just go back two pages and then take a different path."
• David Sedaris [17:48]: "True enough for you."
• David Sedaris [36:13]: "I think you get better at not trying too hard... trusting the audience."

Key Takeaways:

• Persistence Pays Off: Sedaris's journey underscores the value of consistent effort and unwavering belief in one's craft.
• Balancing Truth and Creativity: Navigating fact-checking processes while maintaining comedic authenticity is a delicate art in autobiographical writing.
• Selective Philanthropy: Thoughtful and personalized charitable actions can lead to more meaningful contributions compared to traditional donation methods.
• Growth Through Reflection: Continual evolution as a writer involves critically assessing past work and embracing more genuine storytelling techniques.

This episode offers a rich exploration of the complexities faced by autobiographical comedians and writers, providing listeners with both laughter and profound insights into the creative process.

Transcript

[A]

I invited this woman to open for me in England and I met her at a reading and she said, I'm a writer too and I do what you do. I saw him doing a show tomorrow night in Nottingham. You know, you can have five minutes, you know. And then she called the tour manager and said, I'm going to need a lot more than five minutes. And he said, no, five minutes. And she said, how would I know when my five minutes are up? Wear a watch. I mean, it's not that hard.

[B]

That is the voice of the great David Sedaris. Oh, I love this episode with David Sedaris. David Sedaris is an iconic comedy writer. He introduced me to an entire genre of comedy writing when I started reading him in the 1990s. Very seminal figure in my, in my own creative process. I, I feel so lucky to have chatted with him today. I think you're going to love this conversation. By the way, thanks everybody who listened to Pete Holmes Christmas movies episode last week. That was a super fun one and I hope everyone's having a nice holiday season. And thanks everyone who came out to my shows this year. I had such a blast. I went to like 40 cities or something like that. Thank you for hosting me in your town. It is my new show. It is going to be called the Good Life. I'm doing the final performances at the Beacon Theater in New York City in March and in the meantime I'll be in Iowa City in January. I'll be in Pickering, Ontario in February. Baltimore, Northampton as well as Burlington, Vermont. It all builds up to the Good Life at the Beacon. Tickets are going fast. All of [e-mail] I love talking to David Sedaris. It was such a joy if my 20 something self who discovered David's books knew that I would be able to have a long chat with him about comedy process and the two of us going to the Vatican together to meet the Pope. I wouldn't have believed it. I was so happy to talk to David during the holiday season because of course he's so well known for his Santaland Diaries story. If you haven't read it or heard it on this American Life, definitely check that out along with any of his books and stories that he's written for the New Yorker or on this American Life. He's just a phenomenal writer. We talk about today about process, we talk about truth and authenticity and fact checking in autobiographical writing and comedy. He is a legend. Enjoy my chat with the great David Sedaris. So your breakout was Santaland Diaries where I'm sure people, the people listening to this show would know where you played an elf at Macy's and then you wrote about it, and then it was on public radio, and you were sort of a breakout literary star from that. And that was in 89, when you were doing the job?

[A]

No, I was an elf in 1990 and 1991.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

And then it was on the radio in 1992.

[B]

In 92. So in between the period of time of like, 90. 91. 92, before it was breakout success, were you. How did you feel? Did you feel hopeful about your literary prospects?

[A]

Hmm. I never confused writing and publishing.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

I mean, I know people who do, but I never did. And I just worked. I don't know. I just worked every day. And someone told me that if you work every day, when the time is right, somebody will come a knockin'that's a K, N O C K I N will come a knockin yeah, come a knockin'and I just believed it.

[B]

And it's what happened that is fascinating.

[A]

But, I mean, I know some people now at my age who didn't work out for, you know, the way that they hoped. And a lot of them are pretty bitter. And I don't know, I sometimes I wonder, you know, would I be really bitter if it hadn't worked out? You know, if things hadn't worked out for me, or would I be, you know, happy for everybody?

[B]

Yeah, it's funny because on Instagram, I crowdsource, I go. We have our dream guest today, David Sedaris. What would be the question you have about process? And one of the questions that I thought was an interesting question from Instagram was people were asking, what do you do when you're stuck at the two thirds mark of something? And that hit me. I was like, I know what you mean. The two thirds mark is hard, Right.

[A]

Sometimes you just go back two pages and then take a different path. Oh, I mean, that often works for me. And you can sometimes spot that moment where you made a choice that led you to the dead end. So just go back to that. And it helps to throw it away. So you can't, because sometimes you'll think, oh, it had that line. And that line was so funny. And then when you try to incorporate that line, you're just building everything around a laugh when you can just. Just go find another laugh.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I talked to someone the other day and she. Oh, it's a very accomplished, celebrated novelist, you know, and he just threw a book away, you know, he threw hundreds of pages away.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And threw it away. Like, didn't just keep a file that he can. Just threw it away. And I thought, wow, it would be really good for people to know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because most people would think, okay, I'll throw away 10 pages or throw away, you know, but not throw away hundreds of pages. But it happens all the time. And I always figured. It happened all the time. And I always figured, you know, you throw stuff away, stuff doesn't work. I don't know. I just went on this tour. I had eight new essays. One of them didn't work. I stepped on a toad one night, and I just felt so bad for the longest time. And then it led from that to me, you know, investigating toads.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, they can live up to 10 years in captivity.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And then going to this barber that I go to in. In Sussex who's from, I think, Uzbekistan, and he. His English isn't very good at all. And, you know, like, sometimes there are people and you realize you're causing them pain by trying to have a conversation with them. And it was that sort of situation, and me trying to explain to him that a toad can live up to 10 years. And it just didn't. It just didn't work.

[B]

And it was an essay and you threw it away? Basically, yeah. Oh, okay. How do you decide when you throw it away? Is it because you were reading it on stage in your live tours, and it just wasn't getting the response you.

[A]

Wanted when you read it out loud and then you're just filled with shame afterwards? Like, if you read it out loud and you think you're just filled with shame afterwards when you read it out loud and you think, oh, I can fix this and that. That's one thing. But if you read it out loud and then just like I always think of a cat with a letterbox, like, covering it up, you know, that's what I think. Let's just read something funny now. That's guaranteed to get. Cover that turd up.

[B]

So we were both invited to Vatican City to meet Pope Francis, which was a little bit misleading in the sense that we didn't really. I mean, we shook his hand, we didn't talk with him. I think we all kind of thought Stephen Colbert was here a couple weeks ago talking to me. And I think he also felt like we were going to speak with the pope. We didn't. Did you feel like we were gonna speak with the pope?

[A]

I thought there'd be a group of maybe eight people, and we'd sit around and rap with the Pope. You know, I thought that he would have questions for us, and it would be an intimate setting, and maybe he'd have a cup of coffee in his hand, and we'd have a cup of coffee in our hand, and he'd say, can I top you off? You know, I thought it was gonna be that kind of situation.

[B]

I thought so, too. I think we all. I don't know if we were misled or we just immediately made it about ourselves. Of course we'll have an intimate audience with the Pope. And then it was just a hundred of us in a room, and he spoke. And I actually thought his speech was pretty good. I mean, we had a printout of it in English. It was in Italian, but it was about. Laughter's contagious, and people are so divided right now, and humor has the power to bring us together. I thought it was pretty good.

[A]

I thought it wasn't good enough. And I thought. I don't know if he wrote it or if somebody else wrote it, but it wasn't good enough. His delivery was bad. He was lifeless. He got one little mini laugh by sticking a thumb in his ear and waving his fingers. But it was a pity laugh. And I just thought if I were gonna gather people together, I'd put a little more work into it. I did.

[B]

How dare you, David Sedaris. How dare you defame Pope Francis, my Pope of my church.

[A]

That's what I felt. And it was interesting to meet him, but I didn't feel anything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, but again, I didn't petition to be invited. You know, they gave us each a rosary, and I gave it to my dry cleaner's mother.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I wanted to give it to the most Catholic person around.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

And so I gave it to her. Cause I thought. And I'd never met her mother, but I just know that her mother's. It would be meaningful, very Catholic. And so I thought it'd be worth it. You know, you get the rosary, and.

[B]

I feel the same way. I give it to my parents. They were thrilled. The rosary is probably the best takeaway.

[A]

What was interesting to me about that day was that there were a hundred writers and comics, and you knew every single person in that room was gonna work it into a bit.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so everyone.

[B]

That never happens.

[A]

Yeah. And so I thought, what would my take be? And so I just focused on the clothes. And I don't know. I haven't read other people's or seen their thing, but I would imagine that that could Be my own take on it, because everyone's bringing their eye into it, and everyone's gonna see it in a different way. But I thought to myself, what am I moved by? What am I odd buy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was the clothing you like, the outfits.

[B]

Yeah. And then you went. Yeah. So you went. And you wrote about this in the Yorker in a fantastic piece. You went with Julie Louis Dreyfus and some other folks to shop for what ended up being a, I believe, a Cossack.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like a priest's.

[A]

It's a priest. Yeah. And there's. The pleating in the back is really beautiful. I mean, I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are lesser priest robes, but the place that we went to has been making robes for the priest for, like, 300 years. I mean, for the Pope and his associates, for.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was afraid they wouldn't sell it to a layman.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and I didn't want to lie. I mean, my last name's Greek, so when they asked, you know, for my name for the receipt, then they would. I didn't want lies, but I lied a little, and I said I collected religious garments from around the world, and then it takes nine months to have one made, and usually three fittings. And I thought, well, okay, I'll come back. But they had one that was already made, and so I bought that one.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It looks nice.

[A]

It's really slimming.

[B]

At one point, you told me you might wear it on tour.

[A]

I did wear it. Yeah. I wore it on stage. But sometimes, you know how it is. You get to a theater and every theater's different, and you realize they're not LED lights and they're really hot, burning up. So I was gonna step out of it, but it's really hard to undo 33 buttons in a way that people don't notice. You're supposed to. It has 33 buttons, one for every year of Christ's life. And you're supposed to reflect on Christ's life every time you put it on.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I'll tell you, the second time you put it on, you're pulling it on over your head and I think. And you're wishing Jesus had been crucified at.

[B]

That's crazy. Do you. Did you go to church when you were a kid? You went to church when you were a kid?

[A]

Greek Orthodox Church.

[B]

Greek Orthodox, yeah. Do you ever go. Do you still go?

[A]

We go at Christmas, but we stay for 15 minutes and just to see what people are wearing. Just to get dressed up. Just to go there, see what people are wearing and leave.

[B]

See what people are wearing. We had a comedian on the show, very, very popular comedian, Bert Kreischer. And you may have crossed paths with this guy before, but he's very. He's very. It's hard to describe. He's very broad, like in the BRO universe of comedians. And he's very funny. He's a very good comedian. But he said that you. That. That's a photo of him right there. He wears. He wears no shirt a lot of times.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

And he's a huge fan of yours. And he said. David sedaris. In the 1990s, when I first came to New York, I asked someone for a book recommendation. What book are you reading? I'm reading David Sedaris book. Picked up one of your books. Loved it. Loved every second of it. And it was his introduction to having a gay friend, which was you.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Though you never met him. That was the impact his book had, your book had on him.

[A]

I'm always confused by that with comedians, like what you say, like not getting dressed up, but I think you mean.

[B]

Bert with no shirt.

[A]

Yeah. Put his shirt on.

[B]

Put his shirt on. But it's part of what he does. It's part of what he does. It somehow fits with all of his stories that he would be very quick to take his shirt off.

[A]

Did he have his shirt off when he was being interviewed?

[B]

No, not that day. But I think if I had asked him to, I think he would have taken his shirt off. Maybe he did. Oh, yeah. When we took photographs, he did take his shirt off. Yeah.

[A]

Could you ever do anything on stage naked?

[B]

Would I do anything naked on stage? I don't suppose. I think.

[A]

I mean, if you went on stage naked, I mean, people would get used to it within a few minutes, I suppose, but it would just change everything.

[B]

Well, you know, it's a whole thing. Naked comedy. Some people do a lot of standup comedy fully naked. Like, it's a whole genre of comedy.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's a whole thing. There's a comedian, very funny comedian named Mike Kaplan who does it. He's. And I've never gone to one of these shows, but it's a whole culture of people who do naked comedy.

[A]

I met someone the other day and he got a part in a movie and he had lines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he thought great. And the movie. And there was a.

[B]

So he thought great.

[A]

And there was an actor in the movie who's very highly regarded actor. So it wasn't. You Know, it wasn't just a student project or anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he had to suck the guy's dick. And the guy had a prosthetic dick that this guy sucked. And he said it was just like a real one, but he had to show his real dick. And he said, it's nothing to look at. And he had to show his own ass and his own dick and then suck a fake dick on in the movie and then call his mother and say, don't ever watch this movie. And then they cut his lines. They cut his lines. I'd be so mad.

[B]

That story is too funny because you have to read into it and go, did they give him the lines knowing that it would lure him into doing the role and then take the lines away? So in that story, you're saying he had to show his own dick or the other actor did.

[A]

No, he had to show his own. The other actor had a prosthetic.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And I guess that would be the thing. A big actor, you would say, well, it's not my real dick.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But there's not a prosthetic that would make your dick smaller.

[B]

That was the big thing that was a big discussion point on Dirk Diggler on Boogie Nights was that it was a prosthetic dick and not Mark Wahlberg's dick.

[A]

But for some reason that works. Cause then you think, well, it wasn't his dick.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then it's still your balls and everything around it.

[B]

Maybe, maybe. But I think it's the whole. Of course, we were just talking earlier about how comedically neither of us talk a lot about sex, and then we're talking about, like a graphic sex scene.

[A]

I know, but we're not talking about our own.

[B]

We're not talking about our own. Yeah, true, true. I was thinking we got a lot of questions from when we crowdsourced this on Instagram, of sort of how much of what you say is true. And I always quote you. And the first time you were on the podcast, I quoted this too. Which is true enough for you. People ask you, are your stories true? And you have said, true enough for you, which I think is the greatest answer.

[A]

Well, I mean, when you write for the New Yorker. I mean, when I wrote about going to see the Pope, they fact check everything. They contacted the private chef. Another dinner we had the night before.

[B]

Oh, did they? Probably.

[A]

And I had written that it was an eight course meal. And the fact checker said, I contacted the chef. I mean, how did he even find her? She said it was seven courses. I said, yes, but there was a bonus Cacio Pepe. Remember that?

[B]

Yeah, sure, yeah.

[A]

So it was eight. Well, you need to make that clear in the essay. So I just got rid of it because what it does, it just ties a knot in your essay.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

It's something that's not really that important. And then you're adding. Although for those who wanted it, and five of the 12 people wanted it, there was Cacio Pepe, which she said we could. It just snags people unnecessarily. And I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't talked to the Pope in that essay. And then I had something in the New Yorker a few weeks ago and I was in Maine and this man stopped me. I was on an island in Maine and this man stopped me and asked what my favorite color was. And I don't know that I have one, but I said red. And he reached into a bag next to him and handed me a flashlight, a tomato colored flashlight, the size. And I wrote that it was the size of my penis when I was 12. And I just put that to fuck with the fact checker. So the fact checker would say, you know, how do we know how big your penis was when you were 12? Google it.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But that drives me crazy when people say, how much of it? Because again, when you write for the New Yorker, everything. If I wrote about this and if I said that your coffee cup is red, they would ask you, is the coffee cup red? And then if you said, well, it was kind of on the orange side, then that would be a problem. Literally, it's everything. And there are people then who say, well, you shouldn't be allowed to write about anything that happens when you're alone because it can't be fact checked.

[B]

I've never heard that before. That's outrageous.

[A]

If I were writing about, if I were writing a political essay or I was writing an essay that had real consequences for another person. But I'm writing humor. And so sometimes I have to really fight with them to say, look, I'm trying to get a laugh here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And well, one time I said I was with my brother in law at Costco like 15 years ago, and I always have little gifts to give teenagers at my book signings. So I was giving away condoms that year, right? Because they're light and easy to pack and you could just have a laugh and, you know, give a kid a condom. And I was at Costco with my brother in law on a Sunday morning and all we had in our cart was a Box of condoms. And I said it was the size of a cinder block. And I said, it made us look so gay. And I said, we got to get something else in this cart. And he put strawberries in there, which just made us look gayer. And then the New Yorker fact checker said, said, the largest box of condoms that Costco sells is like 16, so that wouldn't be the size of a cinder block. And I said, when you're in a small town, conservative town in North Carolina on a Sunday morning with another man, and you just have one thing in your grocery cart and it's condoms, it feels as big as a center. Like, you gotta give this to me. If I was to give this. If I was writing about the number of condoms that Costco sells, then that would be. That would be important, you know, But I wasn't. So sometimes it's just. It's a struggle, like.

[B]

And also, where's the lost art of embellishment? It's lost. Yeah, exactly. It's lost.

[A]

It's completely lost. On stage you can do it, but on the page, you can't.

[B]

Well, it's the old adage about Irish storytelling, which is the more times you tell it, the better it is, the more farther it is from true, right? And it's like, shouldn't we honor that in some way?

[A]

No. In the age of Gotcha, right? And that's, you know, again, when I started, you could embellish, right? And it was. It was like a long tradition of that, and then that was just taken away.

[B]

It's interesting because the. The Hasan Minhaj article was in the New Yorker. Did you read that? No. Okay, so about a year ago, the New Yorker did, like, a long expose about comedian Hasan Minhaj, who's a friend of mine, and they basically fact checked his comedy specials. It was very strange because in some ways I could see why certain elements of it, you'd say, hey, can we talk about this? Because this is actually a historical investigation by the FBI and we'd like to discuss that. But certain things were like, the girl who blew me off in high school, they called her and she said she didn't say the thing that is in his special. And you'll. Well, if you go back in the history of autobiographical storytelling, I mean, swimming to Cambodia can't be word for word. True, right? I mean, Spalding Gray stuff can't be word for word. I mean, like, the idea of that we're gonna do that now is bizarre. I actually think it fundamentally changes autobiographical.

[A]

Storytelling on the page at Least it does.

[B]

But even with Hasan, it does because they're fact checking something that's a comedy special.

[A]

But I don't, I don't know. I just feel like people went overboard with it. I think it was after James Fry's.

[B]

Yeah, A Million Little Pieces. Yeah, the fact checking of that.

[A]

It was after that that then everybody just kind of went overboard with it. And I don't know, I've never. I think it would be so hard to have something in your past like that that you're just waiting for it to come to come to light.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what hired killers are for.

[B]

That's what hired killers are for.

[A]

But they always come back and blackmail you. Always.

[B]

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[A]

That's my hobby.

[B]

It's your hobby. Have you picked up any interesting trash recently?

[A]

It's the same stuff over and over. I mean, it's the same stuff. It's just, you know, like 711 is like a litter supply store.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's never. You never find anything that real food came in.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

You know, like a bag that nuts came in.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it's all, it's all. You know, I think it should be legal to drive drunk because so many people throw cans and bottles out the window because they're drunk and if they get stopped, it's gonna be worse if they have it in the car.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So just make it legal to drive drunk. And then they wouldn't be throwing the cans and bottles out the window.

[B]

I've heard this theory, too, which is, people, I've never been to Japan. I've always wanted to go, but I think you have to carry your trash. Like, there's no trash receptacles.

[A]

There are no trash cans in Tokyo.

[B]

Right. And so. And so I've heard that it really makes you rethink consumption and trash, but.

[A]

At the same time, you would never walk down the street eating. Like, there are places that have ice cream. Yeah, but there's a little place where you stand and eat it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You wouldn't walk down the street.

[B]

Right.

[A]

An ice cream cone. You would never walk down the street with a cup of coffee. Yeah, you wouldn't. Unless you were taking it to your office or something.

[B]

When you went to Japan, there's. You probably have a lot of Japanese fans, right?

[A]

When I went to Japan, I'm the first time My Japanese publisher. This is so embarrassing. I'd never been to Japan before, and I heard you were supposed to have gifts for people, so I had gifts. I was going from Paris, and they didn't sell. They didn't. At the time. They didn't sell these macaroons everywhere. They sell them everywhere Now. I have a block against the name of the store that sells them, but it's a very famous store in Paris. And anyway, so I brought three boxes of them to Tokyo, and it turned out to be four people. Right. And so I just kept. And they didn't have anything for me, right. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna. And Hugh said, give them their gifts. And I was like, hugh, shut up. You know, give them their gifts. And then I said, okay, look, I thought there were only gonna be three of you. I thought there were only gonna be three of you. So I only have three gifts. So I'm gonna write each of your names on a slip of paper, and then you each. You like you.

[B]

This is ridiculous.

[A]

I know it. People would kill themselves for less. I was so embarrassed. And so the three men got gifts, and the woman didn't. And then. This is insane. Later that day, we ran into the woman. You never run into anyone in Tokyo. We were, like, on subways, we ran into her, and she opened her bag to get something, and I saw the box of macaroons in her bag. One of the guys had given it to her. There's some corruption, but when I first went To Tokyo. My publisher took me to a sumo match and got box seats at a sumo match.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah, but the box is a box, a square drawn on the ground, like, it's not. It's so crazy.

[B]

It's not a physical box.

[A]

You have a little picnic in this square drawn on the ground. And then they took me to a kabuki, and it was.

[B]

Did you meet the sumo wrestlers?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the kabuki was, like six hours long. And I thought, oh, how do I get out of this? Six hours? And there was that intermission where you eat dinner. It was riveting. Loved every moment of it. But my book sold, like, 25 copies in Japan.

[B]

Oh, is that right?

[A]

It didn't matter. They treated me like a king. And. And. And I went back the next time, and it was the same thing. And then I just stopped contacting because I was so embarrassed. They were spending so much money on me.

[B]

What occurred to me when. When it occurred. What occurred to me when we were in. In Vatican City is, you know, we met the Pope, and then you went caustic shopping, and with all your stories, you pick up trash. Obviously. Santaland Diaries is based on a unique life experience. You clearly go into the stories. You. You go. You seek out life.

[A]

No, I don't really.

[B]

Telling a story.

[A]

No, I don't really. No. Really don't. No. Like, I've never, you know, if I thought, oh, what if I took the subway to the end of the platform and slept on the station? Like, no, I've never. I did one gimmicky thing once when I went to a nudist colony, but. And that was years ago, and it didn't. And I wrote about it, but it didn't work because I couldn't be honest about why I went.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

I had to make it seem like, oh, I always wondered what it was like, you know, And I don't even walk around the house barefoot. Like, the only reason I did it is my editor. It was my second book. And he said, what is it going to be about? And I said, I'll go to a nudist colony, because I'd never read anything about one. And then I thought, oh, maybe he'll forget. And then it was. It was actually him who found the place and made the reservation for me to go to reservation. And. But I. When I was writing about it, it would have been so much better if I had said that, right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If I'd said. I said I would do it and then I'd to get out of it. And then I had to go. That would have changed everything. But it was just false to say this is in 1995 or something. It would just be. It was just so false to say, you know, what would it be like? But no, I don't do things to write about them. I just. That's why I'm so glad when something happens, you know, like. And when I got the invitation to go and meet the pope, I didn't like, call the New Yorker and say, oh, can I write about it? Because that's worse when you have a.

[B]

You have to have a story. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And when you're forced. Because I don't ever want it to be forced like that. What made it hard to write about was the people who we went with.

[B]

Colbert and Chris Rock.

[A]

Yeah, Chris Rock and Julia Louis Dreyfuss. And then how do you do that and not sound like a name dropper?

[B]

That's true. And my joke is, I go. I was the last to be invited. Like, I was at the bottom of the list. They called me in May to go in June. I think there was an April list.

[A]

I got called two days before you beat me. Yeah, you got called two days before, two days beforehand.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I got the invitation. Yeah, I was pretty. I was pretty sure I was the.

[B]

Last, but it was a little disorganized.

[A]

But I'm not in a room with people like that. I don't. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not my everyday experience. And also, you didn't want to talk about. Oh, I don't know. Like, I didn't want to talk about, you know, Chris Rock was sitting not far away and I heard him talking about things. And I wasn't going to quote him because the fact checker, you know, he's going to contact. I don't know how they contact him, but they're going to contact. And then no one's going to trust you if you're, you know, if you're overhearing their conversations and you're writing, you know, then.

[B]

By the way, this is the funniest. No one's going to fact check this because it's just us. But it's walking down the hallway with Chris Rock and gorgeous artifacts all around us in architecture. He looks up and he goes, well, wasn't a union job. Someone. Someone at Mish Spirit says, mary, kill your greatest works.

[A]

Mary what?

[B]

Mary kill is a game.

[A]

Oh, Mary, kill.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, what would you. What would you marry? What would you kill? And it's of your own works, whether it's your essays, your books, etc.

[A]

Oh. Oh. And what would I. That means what do I approve of? What do I like?

[B]

I think so, yeah. What would be most passionate about or turns you on still?

[A]

I mean, in my own work.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like an essay that I wrote that I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hmm. Okay. I wrote an essay about my friend dawn that was in the New Yorker a couple years ago called Goodyear. I would fuck that. And Mary. And Mary.

[B]

Mary's like, who you're comfortable maybe spending your life with. So it's like. So it's like, what's the essay or book that you'd be comfortable spending your life with?

[A]

Oh, well, can you fuck and marry the same person? The same thing.

[B]

I mean, for the sake of the game. I don't think so. I think you have to pick a fucker and a marry that are different.

[A]

Okay. I would marry an essay I wrote about going with my sisters to Japan and going shopping with them in Japan.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I love that one.

[A]

What would I kill? I would kill the entire book naked. No. Yeah.

[B]

Get out of my house.

[A]

Kill the entire book.

[B]

Get out of my house. You're talking about, like, a seminal work of literature that I love.

[A]

No, the problem is that I wasn't going on tour then, and so if I'd read those essays out loud, they would be a third. As long as they are, you're out of your mind. But I had to turn a book in, and I was at a writer's colony and everybody else was writing. I mean, I was right every day anyway. But I thought I was just going by the word count. And everything in that book is too long and it's trying too hard.

[B]

You know, it's unbelievable you think that. Cause it's a seminal book. It's like that has the essay about you coming out.

[A]

Yeah. It's awful. That book was, you know, if you met someone at a party and they didn't know who you were and you were trying to tell them who you were.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You would pick the big things that happen in your life. Right. And so now I think it's more about making something out of nothing, which is much harder to do and I think makes for a better essay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it always bothers me when people don't. Can't see that anything I wrote in the last year is better than anything I wrote before.

[B]

Right. No, I certainly. I can see that. I mean, what do you think? In what way specifically, do you feel like you get better as a writer? Specifically with.

[A]

I Think you get better at not trying too hard or not to look like you're trying too hard? Like, trusting the audience. Trusting that they're listening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because beforehand it would be like, if I didn't get a laugh Every, like, 15 seconds they weren't listening. And now I know they're lit. You can feel them listening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can feel when they stop listening. And instead, before, it was like that person jabbing you in the ribs, which is just kind of irritating. And so now I don't. I mean, I'm not going to get up there without laughs.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I.

[B]

That's such a great analogy, though, of. Of the ribs is. Is. Yeah, because it's. There is something about. Yeah, there is something about your. That you're about your writing now that is so effortless. It just feels like you're relaying a story and it doesn't feel like you're forcing an emotion on us.

[A]

Well, Faz has been written 19 times, you know, and then read out loud. And then, like, there was a laugh. Applause. I was getting in this tour for something. It just didn't feel right. So I just got rid of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because, I mean, it was laughs and applause, its own separate applause. But then it just felt like I didn't like the feel. I didn't like the sound.

[B]

I have that with. There's a couple of jokes I have in my current tour that I'm doing where it goes to applause. And I always say to the audience, well, no, no, we don't want it to be a rally. You know, it is a precautionary thing, is when people are clapping more than laughing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting, though, that you disavow Naked, which is one of, I think are great works of comedy literature of all time. Because people, I guarantee you, and I'm sure people have said this to you, people probably came out because of that book. People probably were more comfortable with who they were because of that book. No one said that to you?

[A]

Oh, yeah. But I just think, like, gee, like, I. I mean, most people. Most writers, I think, feel that way, you know, like, that's hard to look back at something they wrote a long time ago.

[B]

No, I get that. Yeah. Is there anything you regret from your writing a book?

[A]

I mean, I regret hurting anybody, you know, anybody who I hurt. There was this girl I went to high school with who was hurt by something. I changed her name. It didn't occur to me. I mean, you know, when you're young and it's your first book, you don't really think anyone's really going to read it, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, you just don't think that.

[B]

No, you're absolutely right.

[A]

And. And I changed her name, and she was hurt by it, and I regret that.

[B]

Interesting. Because it's funny, because whenever people ask me, and I'm sure you get this question all the time, we got a lot of people asking this question over Instagram today is people always ask me, how do you write about people? Exactly. The thing you're saying, how do you write about real people? I always fudge details to throw people off of who the actual person is. But you're saying, like, with the New Yorker, they would fact check that, and they'd go, no, no, you can't write this.

[A]

Well, I wrote something, and it was just really a throwaway line. It was an essay. I went to Africa in February, and I'd been at a party earlier, and I said I'd met an author I've long admired. And I said, why? You look so young. And she said, I had a facelift. She said, I had my neck done, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I move into the essay after that. So the fact checker's like, who was it? And I said, why do I have to say who it was?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So then I told them, and then they contacted her, and she's perfectly cool. She didn't care who knows her. But then I was just so mad at the fact checker. Like, I didn't even. And I didn't even name her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why do you have to go, oh, I hate this? And then I was afraid that she would think that then I was gonna, like. And I wouldn't.

[B]

That it would be a hit piece or something like that.

[A]

Like, don't tell anyone, but I had a face. Like, she was so open about it. And again. But if you change someone's name, you have to acknowledge it. You have to say, this guy, let's call him Mike, Or I'll call him Mike. You know, you have to do that. But usually if I'm writing about people I'm writing about. I try to write about funny people, and I repeat funny things that they said. And it's not like they're writers themselves or they have television and they were like, I was gonna use that line. It's not like that. I think I make people look good. And in terms of writing about my family, it's usually stuff they know is funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's not. So when there's a laugh, you're not laughing at them. That's their laugh. But people. It's funny to me that people think. Think that. It's not. Like, how can you not. How do you not know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the stuff between the quotation marks is what you're laughing at.

[B]

No, I know.

[A]

So why you think you're laughing? Do you think that person doesn't know they're funny?

[B]

I have a thing. I have a thing I've been saying on stage lately. It's true story. It's my daughter getting. And she gets the laugh. I tell the story, which is I'm walking down the street with my daughter, and someone says to me, I like your comedy. I go, thanks. And I look at my daughter, I go, your dad's a great comedian. And my daughter just goes, all right. You know, and we walk a few blocks, and I go, uno. What do you think when people say stuff like that? And she goes, it's a waste of my time. I go, that's the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me. And I know Bill Burr. That's nice.

[A]

It's a waste of my time.

[B]

I do it because she gets the laugh, and I've, like, told her the joke, and she likes it because she gets the laugh.

[A]

Right. So to me, that's making your daughter look funny.

[B]

She's funny. Yeah.

[A]

But you're making her look good.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

And I guess I'm just sort of surprised. It's like a portrait that I'm painting. But it's a flattering portrait. Like, I'm not taking your picture. When you're passed out at a party with your mouth open. That's not the picture that I'm. That's a picture I'm giving you of me. Yeah, but not the picture, you know, my boyfriend, his. So he just had a hip replaced, right? And he said the day before he had his hip replaced, he said, I was just on the phone with my older brother, and he says he wished he was here to help out. I said, call him back. And he said, no, he didn't mean it. I said, call him back. Three hours later, I had a car going to his brother's house two hours north of Seattle, picking him up.

[B]

This is hilarious.

[A]

Blue ham, business class to New York, had a car meet him there, brought him to the house, right? So he could, you know, help take care of Hugh. Well, and then Hugh's sister texted him and said, is David any help? And I took the phone and I wrote, he's no help whatsoever. And she wrote back, and she said, that really Makes me angry. But then he's so self involved and I, and what I had done wasn't fair, you know, to use his phone to write back because she would have never said that to my face. But I was talking to Amy and Amy said, you know, that's your own fault. You've written about yourself in such a way that you're the lazy person. You're the one who doesn't do anything. And that's your reputation. There's nothing you can do to get out of it. It's like if your reputation is the, the school whore, you can't change it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You can become a nun and it doesn't change it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So I thought, well, okay, it's my own fault that his family. But I started seeing myself through his family's eye.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, but then at the same time, like, I bought his mother an apartment in Paris. Oh my God. Yeah. And this is stuff when I'm self involved, sitting in a room writing about myself. Like, everyone's benefiting, right?

[B]

So what we do in every show is working it out for a cause. If there's a non profit that you think does a good job, we just link to them in the show notes. And I usually contribute. Is there anyone you can think of?

[A]

All right. I've been thinking about this lately.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I am sick to death of donating money to charity. And they spend every second trying to get you to give them more.

[B]

It's my whole life, right.

[A]

Like last year, someone I knew had cancer, so I donated to the American Cancer Society. Yeah, we loved your last essay in the New Yorker. Let's get together and talk about, you know, and everyone I've ever given money to does that. And it's so irritating. Right?

[B]

I get it.

[A]

So I give money. Here's who I give money to.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Somebody going through a trash can for food, Somebody mentally ill on the street because they don't come back to you. They don't say, can you make it $100 the next time? But they don't say, can we get this? Can we do this in your will? Now outsourcing is a nice thing because I wrote something a couple years ago. I had been. I was on book tour and this woman who was my media escort, who's a person who drives you to your appointments and stuff, she said at church this morning, our Pastor gave everyone $50 and told us to give it to a person in need by 3:00 or 3:10. And that 3:10 was like corresponded to a Bible verse. And she said, I'm not going to be around any poor people between now and then. I have a luncheon at the country club, said, can I give you this $50 to give away? And I was in Milwaukee, and I thought really hard about it, and I didn't want to give it to anyone who asked me for it. I wanted to find. So I went to the library, because there's usually, you know, homeless people who hang out at the library. Right. And I went to the library and I said, I have $50 to give away. Who do you think would be good anyway? And I wrote about it, and people started giving me $50 and mailing me 50 or $100 to give away to someone. Wow. And so I do it, and I say to them, I'll write you who I give it to.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

So it's kind of great. So people write me, they give me money, I give it away. But see, if I were to tell you I just gave $50 to. I just gave $50 to mentally ill person on my way here today. Yeah, you'd think, shut up. Like, okay, it. Just because you can't talk about being charitable because it just makes you look like an. But if it's somebody else's money, right. You can talk about it all day.

[B]

All right, so I'm going to get. I'm going to get you some cash, and I'm going to ask you to give it to people.

[A]

And I think. And I'm really responsible with it. I think long and hard about who I give it to.

[B]

This is the most extraordinary answer we've ever had to this question.

[A]

But they don't come back and ask you for money.

[B]

I understand as someone who. As someone. Last year we gave. This past year, we've given to 42 different organizations. And so my mail. Except one per episode. So my mailbox is.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Stacked with stuff.

[A]

But why do they do that?

[B]

Why can't they just say, well, I don't know. I think that's the model of the whole thing. They need the money. And so their only plan is to ask again and again and again. They know that you want to contribute.

[A]

Sometimes you don't want to give it again because you don't want them to think that their strategy is working. And I think they're out of touch. They're out of touch that they think that you want to hear from them again and again.

[B]

You don't, David, this is what makes you so brilliant. And also, I'm going to give you cash so you can give to strangers.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Don't give away. Okay.

[A]

I'll tell you who I give it to.

[B]

David, you're an inspiration. You're always surprising, always funny. And whenever I'm trying to figure out, you know, trying to find a laugh when I don't. Can't find a laugh, I read your books. So thank you.

[A]

Oh, gosh. Thank you, Mike.

[B]

Working it Out. Cause it's not done.

[A]

We're working it out.

[B]

Cause there's no that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, check out David Sedaris Books at your local bookstore. David is currently on tour all over the world. New Zealand, Australia, Hawaii. In March, he'll be at the Flynn in Burlington. Like me. You can find all of David's tour dates on DavidSederasBooks.com youm can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel at. Mike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe because we're going to be posting more and more videos soon. There's, by the way, so many great ones on there. We had the Lynn Miranda episode, we had the Gary Goleman episode, we had the Tig Notaro episode. Just tons of great stuff on that YouTube channel. Check out Birbigas.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis, associate producer Gary Simons, sound mix by Shub Sarah and supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. We just did the Ally Coalition annual talent show and raised a lot of money for a great cause. Consider contributing to them as well. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts. If you're new to the podcast and enjoy this episode, we have almost 150 episodes we've done since June of 2020 and they're free. No paywall. We've had Lynn Miranda, Jim Gaffigan, Maria Bamford, John Mulaney. So many greats. Check out the back catalog Comment on Apple Podcasts, which is your favorite. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your even tell your enemies. Let's say you write a piece for the New Yorker and the piece is about how Working it out is your favorite podcast and you listen to every single episode, the New Yorker fact checker calls, and they say, you know, I don't believe you listen to all the episodes. They say, you didn't listen to the first episode with David Sedaris, episode six. And you know what? They're right. But guess what? You can fix that. You go back and you listen to episode six from 2020. Cause there's no paywall. We're working it out, everybody. See you next time.