← Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
157. Matt Rogers: Las Culturistas Meets Las Birbiglia-istas
00:55:41
Matt Rogers is a beloved comedian, writer, actor, and co-host of cult hit podcast “Las Culturistas.” Matt sits down with Mike for a chat about the ups and downs of show business, the inside of writing for a hit TV series, and what it was like when Matt and his podcast co-host Bowen Yang were both invited to audition for SNL. Matt also discusses why having fun is the most important ingredient for creativity. Plus, advice via Jessica Chastain and why Mike somewhat regularly has to throw muffins in the garbage.
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- [00:01]
A
Okay, Kelly Clarkson versus Mariah. The nicest restaurant in the world calls you and says they can only get a reservation for two. You and Mariah Carey or you and Kelly Clarkson. Who do you invite?
- [00:11]
B
Kelly.
- [00:12]
A
Why?
- [00:12]
B
Because you can talk to her. You know what I mean? Like, I think you'd have to be like a real egomaniac to like relax around Mariah.
- [00:21]
A
Right?
- [00:21]
B
Like that would be crazy. Whereas Kelly is like she's down to chat.
- [00:28]
A
Yeah.
- [00:29]
B
Plus I think we'd be way better at sharing apps. I feel like Kelly says, let's get wings on the table, Mariah. Like, what are we ordering? You know what I mean? Like, that's really funny. Anchovies and a glass of water.
- [00:46]
A
That is the voice of the great Matt Rogers. I have been looking forward to this one for so long. Matt is a hilarious comedian, singer, songwriter, actor. He is the co host of one of my favorite podcasts, Las Culturistas that he co hosts with Bowen Yang, who's also been a wonderful guest on this podcast. He acted in Vanessa Baer's show I love that for you, which I love. And the new Netflix series no Good Deed, which is hilarious. He is the self proclaimed pop prince of Christmas. He has a comedy special on Showtime called have you heard of Christmas? Which is great. We have a great conversation today. I love this episode. I should note this interview is recorded before the awful fires in Los Angeles. My heart goes out to everyone in la. It's terrible. Please consider donating to the California Fire Foundation, Los Angeles as well as Los Angeles Fire Department Foundation. We'll put those links in the show notes. This week we have some news about my shows in New York City tomorrow. This has not been announced yet. We are adding a sixth show at the Beacon Theater. A sixth show tomorrow, Tuesday. You are the first to know. If you sign up for the mailing list you will get the pre sale code. It is a sixth show at the Beacon Theater of my show which is called the Good Life and I'm performing in a few more cities. I just added three shows in West Palm beach at the Kravis center in this beautiful black box they have. It's like a two or three hundred seat black box they have at the Kravis Center February 13, 14 and 15. I will also be in Northampton and Burlington, Vermont and Baltimore. But I think all those three cities are sold out and we might be adding a couple other cities. Stay tuned and join the mailing list on birdbigs.com I love talking to Matt Rogers today. We we talk a lot about the movie. Don't think twice if you don't know the movie. It is about a group of best friends in an improv group and one of them gets cast on a Saturday Night Live type of show and the others don't. And it's about sort of, you know, life and what happens when people realize that they're. They're not going to all do the same thing or get the same thing and sort of the pain that that can cause in friendships and. And it's a movie I'm super proud of and it's very personal to me. And so we talk a lot about. Matt is sort of really honest about his experience of watching that movie when he was younger and seeing it through one lens and then seeing it as he got older through a different lens. And I. Someone who created it, I like, I'd love hearing about it because he talks about his relationship of auditioning for Saturday Night Live at the same time as Bowen Yang, who's one of his best friends and collaborator. It's just a really, really honest conversation and I just loved it. I mean, it was one of the coolest conversations I've ever feel like I've ever had on the show. We talk about that. We talk about pop culture, which I don't know that much about. Matt even sings the song from the Land Before Time. What else could you want? Enjoy my chat with the great Matt Rogers.
- [04:12]
B
I wanted to talk to you about that.
- [04:14]
A
Don't Think Twice.
- [04:15]
B
Yeah, because he's pointing to my movie poster. He's pointing to the poster of the film Don't Think Twice. I remember when I watched that movie, I was in the UCB system and I felt a lot of hope and like possibility and like moving forward. And then I remember when I saw that movie, at the time, I had a very negative reaction to it because I felt like it was like a very. Not cynical like. Or mean spirited, but like a harsh take on what it might feel like for things to not go well.
- [04:43]
A
Yeah.
- [04:44]
B
And I remember.
- [04:44]
A
Let's talk about it.
- [04:45]
B
Well, then I literally went through that situation and at.
- [04:49]
A
Haven't we all.
- [04:50]
B
Well, like, but I mean, like, like.
- [04:52]
A
Were you in Hammer Cats at nyu?
- [04:54]
B
I was in Hammer Cats, yeah.
- [04:55]
A
Yeah. So like everyone blew up. And if people don't know, Hemmer Gads is like a very famous.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah.
- [05:00]
A
I mean, if an improv group in college can be famous. Yes, that's the one. Because they had Donald Glover in like.
- [05:06]
B
So it started with Donald Glover and then like Rachel Bloom was in the group, like the year before me. And then, you know, I was big hitter, like. And so basically, like.
- [05:14]
A
And was Bowen in it?
- [05:15]
B
Bowen was in Danger Box. Okay. There was the improv group Danger Box, and then the sketch group Hammer Cats. And it was this time where I'm talking about, like, we were all really finding ourselves and looking around and being like, wow, everyone seems special.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah.
- [05:27]
B
And then I remember it's so apropel because the Golden Globes aired last night, but Bowen and I were at his apartment in downtown Brooklyn and we're watching the Golden Globes and Rachel Bloom wins a fucking Golden Globe.
- [05:38]
A
Yeah. And I look at Bowen and For crazy ex girlfriend.
- [05:41]
B
Yes, for crazy ex girlfriend. And I was like, wait, is it possible that these people that we think are actually special really are like, is it possible that this could happen? And we were like, we don't know. But since then, I mean, you know, who else was in Hammer Cats? Stephanie Hsu, from everything I've wore all at once, like, Oscar nominee, like, you know what I mean? Like, Jack Quaid was in Hammer Cats, like Dennis Quaid and Meg Ryan's son who's now on the Boys. And, like, all these things. Like, you look around at that time and there were really special people, which put, like, a certain pressure on the situation because all of a sudden it's like, well, I know I'm talented and I know I can do it, and therefore it's gonna be harder. And then when I watched your movie, I remember there's specifically a scene where Tammy Sager's character finds out, or she reveals that she's a writer on the show.
- [06:36]
A
Yeah. On the Siren Live type of show.
- [06:38]
B
On the Weekend Live.
- [06:39]
A
Yeah.
- [06:40]
B
And I remember your character calls her C U N T. And I just remember thinking, like, what a mean spirited, like, depiction of our community. I remember, like, it was a real, like, firestarter amongst people that were doing that. Cause I was on a UCB House team. I was doing it.
- [06:59]
A
I'm never in these conversations when I made the movie, so I love hearing stuff like this.
- [07:04]
B
But I was excited to come talk to you about it because I remember my perspective on your film then, as opposed to now. Now that I know what happens and what gets revealed when you are faced with that opportunity, or really any opportunity, amidst your peers and amidst a community that felt purely artistic or creative and then becomes business and becomes political and like, all these other things come in. I actually think that you really nailed, like, the very ugly places that you can go, both interior and exterior. When something like that gets Magnified. And I think my future was, like, low key. It was like, time is a flat circle when I watched the movie. Cause I was like, nuh. When I go through that, I'm gonna be either graceful or successful.
- [07:55]
A
Well, you know, there is something about it that's like looking into the void of the thing. But of course, I have years on you. Like, I'm older than you, so I lived through the ups and downs of it. I don't even view it as a cynical movie. I actually view it weirdly as, like, yeah, life goes on and everybody kind of finds their way and.
- [08:14]
B
And, like, ultimately, though, I had to be a mature person and watch it to see it like that, because I think what happened was, like, when it got ugly and relationships changed.
- [08:26]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [08:27]
B
I was, like, in a state of denial about that because I was like, but I don't want my relationships to change. But then relationships change.
- [08:33]
A
Yeah.
- [08:34]
B
And I think I, at the time when I was watching your movie and so involved in, like, the Upright Citizens Brigade system and so in Indie Sketch and so on the precipice of any of that happening to me, anyone I was close to, I just wanted to maintain that period, of course, and I wanted to maintain the era that I was living with. But that was just that.
- [09:00]
A
Who were you most jealous of in that era?
- [09:02]
B
Who was I most jealous of?
- [09:03]
A
And are you jealous of them now?
- [09:04]
B
You know what? I think that it's less jealousy and more envy. It was like, I remember being that age. So when I was 24, 25, my first collaborative creative partner named Sudie Green was put on SNL as a writer. Oh, wow. And so she was, like, incredibly young for that. And so I remember that feeling, like, whoa. Again, like, this is right after Rachel Bloom has won the Globe. Now Sudie's working at snl, et cetera. So I kind of pivot at that point to an exclusively collaborative relationship with Bowen.
- [09:39]
A
Oh, wow.
- [09:40]
B
And then a couple years later, we both get the invitation to screen test for snl.
- [09:47]
A
Unbelievable.
- [09:48]
B
And amazing. Totally irrespective of each other, too. Not as a duo, nothing. This is after the podcast is going a couple years. It looks like it's gonna be successful, but it's not yet, like, major. But we were sort of a package deal in the comedy community. And then we get this individual opportunity where they bring us in, we test we both do well enough where we're put on hold. Yeah, we both get far as you possibly can. And then someone's gonna get a job, and someone doesn't and for, you know, reasons known only to, you know, whatever. It goes one way for him, one way for me. And I remember thinking, I can't believe this is happening to me again.
- [10:29]
A
Yeah.
- [10:30]
B
Like, I went through a lot where certainly at that point, I developed envy for the experiences they were gonna have.
- [10:39]
A
Of course.
- [10:39]
B
And what I didn't understand was that it was not just the loss of those experiences for me. It was like a door opening to so many other things. And now I have to say, that's why I have so much love for the movie, because everything is gonna be fine for everyone in there.
- [11:00]
A
Sure.
- [11:01]
B
It's a really formative experience that I'm so happy that I had because I legitimately don't fear anything in the industry anymore. Weirdly, after going through that at 28.
- [11:12]
A
I went through it, like, four or five times over. In some ways, I feel like I'm still going through it again and again with different cycles of people. And I feel like writing that movie weirdly cured me of being envious of people because I spent so much time in the characters. And my character was Miles, who goes off on Tammy and everything. And he's so better. That character's so better and living it and acting it. I was just like, there's no point.
- [11:40]
B
Yeah.
- [11:40]
A
Like, this is a. This is a wasted emotion.
- [11:43]
B
It really is, because you can. It's hard to. It's like. So one of the things I'm really bad with, dealing with is rejection. I deal. I don't do well with it because I think I look at it as like, a personal failing. As, like, well, what did I do wrong?
- [11:58]
A
Right.
- [11:59]
B
Like, and me, like, I have such, like, best little boy in the world syndrome from when I'm a little kid. And, like, I'm the oldest son of a varsity football coach. Father.
- [12:08]
A
Yeah.
- [12:08]
B
From Long Island.
- [12:09]
A
Everything I read about you, I'm like, Jesus. You're like, you. You scored super highly on all of your standardized tests, and you ran a four and a half minute mile and all this stuff that was crazy. I said, and you're a great singer, and you're special. You sing. You're amazing.
- [12:24]
B
Thank you.
- [12:25]
A
Like, all the things you do. I'm like, this person is not. For a comedian. You're not an underdog.
- [12:31]
B
No.
- [12:31]
A
You're. As my daughter would say, you're an overdog.
- [12:35]
B
I still don't think of myself as that. It's never enough for me. And I think that's why when something like that happens, like not getting the thing you had set out to do. Like, I'm an extremely goal oriented person. I guess it boils down to, like, I am so, like, goal oriented and such a driven person that it almost makes me, like, not interesting. Like, you can guess, like, what my goals were. I was like a gay kid on Long Island. I went and to nyu. My goal was to get on Saturday Night Live, you know what I mean? To the point where when I felt like I had that opportunity at snl, I had checked every box I had done just for laughs. I had done all the comics to watches. Like, I had been, you know, so that when I didn't get it, it, like, didn't compute and felt like an abject rejection of me.
- [13:26]
A
Yeah.
- [13:27]
B
And in fact, like, I moved myself all the way across the country just to get away from anything that could possibly remind myself of that failure. And I'm happy I did. And I can also, like, link it to, like, you know, my toughest breakup. I'm ultimately happy I went through it because it made me stronger. But when it's going on and when you're a kid who sees himself as potentially being that version of someone who's being rejected, it's hard, especially when, you know, intrinsically that you're someone who takes shit. So tough.
- [13:59]
A
I was just thinking about this the other day because years ago I had it with my special, the new one. They had offered me a slot at the Public Theater. And it was like, oh, that's amazing. And we went in and we had a meeting and we talked about whatever. And then one day my agent called me and they're like. He's like, they. It's not gonna work at the Public anymore. And I was like, well, can we just do a different time of year? He's just like, no, they're just like, fully pulling. And I. It was one of the only times it happened in my career, I cried. Yeah, I remember where I was. I was in Berkeley, California, on tour. I literally just started crossing, just bawling. There's something about the rejection of someone kind of offering you something and then taking it away where it's so hard to not feel it personally.
- [14:45]
B
Yeah.
- [14:46]
A
Like, why are you doing this to me? Meanwhile, you know, I end up doing it at Cherry Lane. It's great. It goes to Broadway. Like, you don't know what the path is for the thing that is. That is not going to work.
- [14:58]
B
Yeah.
- [14:58]
A
You don't know where it actually is going to go. And yeah, that door at that point.
- [15:01]
B
Is not open because you haven't opened it as a possibility. Let Alone. What's behind it? It's like I had one door I was looking at. I have the key to it. Like, I'm dressed for whatever's going on on the inside. The party inside. I know I'm in a sleigh at this party. What do you mean? I'm not invited in? You know what I mean? And so to answer your question about, like, jealousy and envy, I'm not going to say I was perfect. Like, I haven't. I watch SNL less now than I did before, but. But, like, it has nothing to do with, like, me being a curmudgeon about it and more me being, like, I'm just more interested in everything outside of it because I know other things exist. Whereas, like, honestly, SNL was really Daddy.
- [15:49]
A
Of course.
- [15:49]
B
That's really what that is. It was me trying to get Daddy's approval. Not saying Daddy is any one person, but it is the patriarchal thing. And it's literally the reason why me as a kid, who, at eight years old, you know, I was watching the Oscars and I was like, I think I belong in that room and not in this room, meaning my living room in suburban Long Island. I don't belong here. I know I belong in there. But you realize you're gay, and you have to, like, make a tangible enough way that your parents can understand you pursuing entertainment.
- [16:18]
A
Sure.
- [16:19]
B
So what I said was, I'm gonna do comedy. And I knew the end goal was SNL because it's so cool. It's like, it's acceptable by the patriarchy. It's Daddy.
- [16:29]
A
Right.
- [16:30]
B
And then when Daddy said no, I was like, okay, where's Mommy? You know what I mean? And, like, Mommy was a million other things. Or maybe you didn't need Mommy or Daddy. And, like, you were okay as an orphan. And I went out there as an orphan to Los Angeles, and I orphaned in writing. I orphaned in singing. I orphaned all over.
- [16:53]
A
Yeah.
- [16:53]
B
To the point where now I have a career where I'm like, if I. If I'm hard on myself, I know it's that. And it's not that I'm not someone that's succeeding.
- [17:02]
A
It's.
- [17:03]
B
I know my thing is that it's. It is my natural tendency to be, like, not good enough.
- [17:09]
A
Yeah.
- [17:09]
B
It's weird.
- [17:10]
A
It's like the thing that I tell people who are starting in the business is, you know, I'm 46, and I moved to New York when I was, like, 22 years old, and it's all. It's the same. It never stops. Being you're doing the thing. And if you do the thing well enough, people want to see it.
- [17:33]
B
Right.
- [17:34]
A
And if you don't, they kind of don't. And it was true then, and it's true now.
- [17:40]
B
Yeah.
- [17:40]
A
Like, it's like, if I. If my shows aren't good, like, people are like, hey, you shouldn't see that one. It's not good.
- [17:46]
B
Yeah.
- [17:47]
A
And no one shows up.
- [17:48]
B
I mean, and they're entitled.
- [17:50]
A
And they're entitled.
- [17:51]
B
Everyone's entitled.
- [17:51]
A
They're right.
- [17:52]
B
My thing that I learned, it was actually in Amy Poehler's book. It was. It was so simple. It was just, if you're having fun, they're having fun.
- [17:59]
A
Yeah.
- [18:00]
B
So now I'm just like, wow. And I always think, I knew that, but then so many things can get in the way. And I can actually think now, I can look back, and I think if something felt like it flopped or failed or stalled.
- [18:12]
A
Yeah.
- [18:13]
B
It's probably because I wasn't having fun doing it. And then I can attach that to, like, how lucky and grateful I am to be doing this at all, which is that I can say, well, remember to have fun in the pursuit of all these things. And it actually kind of is up to you in a way.
- [18:30]
A
Yes.
- [18:31]
B
You know what I mean?
- [18:31]
A
Oh, absolutely. That's like, literally what my dad, like, the best piece of advice my dad's ever given me since I was a kid is his dad always used to say to him, are you having any fun?
- [18:43]
B
Yeah.
- [18:43]
A
And it was always a confusing piece of advice. Cause it never seemed like my dad was having fun.
- [18:48]
B
Right.
- [18:49]
A
What's the moral here? But I will say, like, I think the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah, that's everything. And if you're not having fun, like, get out.
- [19:00]
B
Yeah. But, like, what. I guess what it is is it's just, like. It's just interesting. Like, sometimes these things are actually the best thing that ever happened to you. And, like, for example, I went out to LA after I didn't book, and then I ended up having. I got a writing job on the other two season two, like, pretty quickly after. And then that experience was a mixed bag. And then as a result of that mixed bag, I learned things about, you know, both ways that something can go.
- [19:28]
A
Can you say how that was a mixed bag?
- [19:30]
B
Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, I. I loved the show. I learned so much about it. I also learned the realities of the way that a writer's room works.
- [19:38]
A
My first time. Yes. This is actually good for the listeners because Sometimes there's a glamorousness to the writers rooms of these popular shows.
- [19:47]
B
Yeah, lose that.
- [19:48]
A
And it's hard. Yeah, lose that.
- [19:50]
B
Because I went to school for it. I went to school for television writing, thinking, oh, now I have a degree in this. I did four years at nyu Tisch. I know how to write in a room. You get there, it's so different. They never tell you, like, you're really just there. And this is such an easy, simple thing to say to a room full of students who are trying to be in a writer's room, to just tell them you're there to service the showrunner and the creators and their vision period. And it is what it is. But I just mean, like, the industry is so much more social and about navigating egos and about participating in room culture than you think it. Than you think. And I think the more you work, the more it prepares you for when you do get that opportunity. And I guess what I realized was sometimes it's good to not get that extremely public, big, high stakes opportunity right out of the gate. Because you book SNL at 25, 26, guess what? You're on SNL. And to be perceived at 25, 26, 27. I am grateful for my, like, whatever you want to call it, like, ascend in the industry, like, experience in the industry being really gradual because I get to pick up and experience things from all these jobs. You know what I mean? I mean, like, sometimes I get frustrated when it feels like things aren't seen by more people. Or for example, my special, you know, it was on Showtime. I broke my ass putting it together. It was like a project that I really cared about. And then it was on Showtime. We, we promoted as much as possible, but just like, not that many people have Showtime.
- [21:31]
A
Yeah.
- [21:32]
B
So at the end of the year, I remember I got some, like, nice notices for it. Like, Vulture called it number two of It's a year right behind Ro. Like, I, I got some like, some of the. Again, like, maybe it is validation from Daddy, whoever Daddy was in this circumstance that I wanted. But I also felt like it didn't move the needle. Like, people didn't really come to me and said they had seen it, like, didn't hear from a lot of my peers, et cetera, to the point where I was just like, again, like, that voice in my head was like, it wasn't enough. It wasn't good enough. I could blame it on whatever, but honestly, now I'm like, sure, I haven't had my, like, Netflix special Yet I haven't been the star of a movie yet that's, like, hit the box office. It's okay. Like, all these things are adding up to more. It's okay that, like, you know, if you eat the big cookie too fast, you're gonna be sick. And now I can tell myself, whenever opportunities come up, it's just that it's an opportunity to grow, succeed. Like, just because I didn't, like, work in that season of the other two and do single creative project they ever wanted to do ever after that, as a result, it wasn't a failure. It was an experience.
- [22:45]
A
The. You know what's really illustrative of this point, too, is in my life is my daughter's nine and a half. And. And we recently started showing her snl.
- [22:56]
B
Sure.
- [22:57]
A
Like, and she loves it. Like, it's per. Like, it's glossy. It's fun. The actors are great, the performances are great. And she doesn't understand some of it, but she understands a lot of it. And, like. And we go back season after season after season after season. And Jenny, my wife, had this observation the other day. She goes, you gotta look back at, like, 2000, 2001, 2002, at who's hosting the show. It's crazy because you realize that people just disappear. Yeah, they're literally the biggest. Because if you host snl, you're basically one of the biggest cultural figures at that moment. One of them. And then they're just gone.
- [23:31]
B
You know what's crazy? This is crazy. So when I first moved to nyu, I would wait on the standby line at SNL every weekend. Every weekend. Do you know the first episode I got in and watched was James Franco and Kings of Leon?
- [23:49]
A
Sure.
- [23:49]
B
And do you know who I sat next to in the audience who was also just watching it?
- [23:54]
A
Who?
- [23:55]
B
Emma Stone.
- [23:55]
A
Oh, my God. That's crazy.
- [23:59]
B
Host and musical guest, James Franco and Kings of Leon. I'm sitting next to in the audience, Emma Stone.
- [24:05]
A
Future, like, five.
- [24:06]
B
And you know what me and Emma Stone were both probably saying in our heads? Can't wait till one day.
- [24:11]
A
Yeah.
- [24:12]
B
Yeah, one day.
- [24:20]
A
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- [25:48]
B
In the last 25 years? I would say. I would say Taylor Swift as a pop culture figure is probably one. I think that it's one thing to just throw out there like, oh, she's like Michael Jackson, but then understand what you're saying. You know what I mean? So I think Taylor Swift is more.
- [26:07]
A
About the Michael Jackson thing because I've heard that person before too, and I think it's actually very true.
- [26:12]
B
Like an all encompassing, culture shifting individual. Like someone who can decide based on their output, lack thereof. Input, lack thereof. How things are culturally. Like someone who can affect mass consumption and pop culture trends in an individual way. That's like Michael Jackson. Like Michael Jackson affected style, you know what I mean? Across the pop culture spectrum, Michael Jackson was a culture king. And I do think that Taylor Swift is that. So when we're talking about the past quarter century, I think that you have to talk about her.
- [26:59]
A
I agree. To add on to that, I actually think there's another significant thing which is from the creator perspective, she changed the paradigm of ownership, of creativity. She basically decided, hey, fuck these people. Yeah, fuck these people who gave me a bad deal.
- [27:16]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [27:17]
A
And I know we had such and such a contract.
- [27:20]
B
Yeah.
- [27:20]
A
It's not fair.
- [27:21]
B
Yeah.
- [27:21]
A
It's predatory.
- [27:22]
B
Yeah.
- [27:23]
A
I'm just gonna take it back and good luck to you.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah.
- [27:26]
A
And then she did it. And I think, honestly, like, I think people will never be the same from it.
- [27:31]
B
No. And also just her sheer. The amount that she creates and how readily it's not just consumed, but beloved is, I think, its own thing.
- [27:42]
A
It's pace setting.
- [27:43]
B
So I would say That I would say Taylor Swift and how she affected pop culture is one. I would say, probably the way that streaming affected not just television and the type of television that gets consumed, but also the fact that it kind of killed movie theaters. That's interesting that. That is something that is really. It's gonna be really interesting to see what the next act is for TV and film when everything becomes so amorphous, like, these mediums are collapsing and condensing in a way that's really interesting. And I think you can say that's happened over the last 25 years. And then I think you have to talk about the Song of Ice and Fire that is Barack Obama and Donald Trump.
- [28:26]
A
Interesting.
- [28:27]
B
Yeah. And culturally, moment of silence. What those were speaking to in terms of, like, people that felt like they had been unheard and then were emboldened and then people that felt like they were unheard of.
- [28:39]
A
It's really interesting. Yeah. Because also, like, they're both stars and continue to be.
- [28:45]
B
That's when you realize, like, culture now. Culture trickles down to politics. Now. It's like. It's kind of. It's. And it's maybe always been like that.
- [28:53]
A
I don't know.
- [28:54]
B
But that's, I think, like, a real story about where we are as a. As a. As a culture and a country. And I. I think it's like, you know, it is cyclical, and it happens. I mean, you see people comparing, you know, the 60s into the 70s into the 80s, into kind of what it's felt like over the past 25 years in our culture, where it's just like. It feels like we got like, a very, like, liberal sort of, like, culture. And now it feels like we're becoming a lot more conservative again. And, like, suddenly it's like, like, well, let's make smart decisions, and, you know, Trump, like, whatever that means to people. But it's just.
- [29:32]
A
Yeah.
- [29:32]
B
I'm not excited about living in the 80s again.
- [29:34]
A
Although I will say, like, when I'm tr. When I'm touring, I'm sure you find this when you're touring. It's like you go to Asheville, North Carolina, and Charleston, South Carolina. I mean, these are the places I went in December. Yeah, it's like, it's all liberal.
- [29:48]
B
Well, where I.
- [29:49]
A
All the cities in the red states are very liberal and hip.
- [29:53]
B
You're right. Atlanta and Philly, for me, felt like they were. Even if during the ticket sales process, I had been concerned about them, when I got there, I was like, I'm really happy that I came because that's.
- [30:07]
A
How I felt about my Southern run in December. I was like, oh, these shows are some of the best of the whole tour.
- [30:12]
B
Totally. Totally. My Philly show was, like, unforgettable. It felt amazing. Oh, my God.
- [30:20]
A
I can't believe that's a red state.
- [30:21]
B
It is a red state. I was like. I remember looking at my list, I was like, well, I only perform in one red state. Right. Ha ha. No.
- [30:29]
A
When you said Philly to that, I'm like, well, that's a no. It's a fucking red state.
- [30:33]
B
Pennsylvania. Be red.
- [30:34]
A
Wow. Wow. Okay. On no good deed, you play a real estate agent when you're acting on a show like that. What do you like in directors?
- [30:45]
B
Oh, man. Well, Liz Feldman, who created the show, also did Dead to Me.
- [30:50]
A
Yeah.
- [30:50]
B
And Silver Tree, who's directing the show. She's am. And what I loved about them was they really knew what they wanted. And I think that they did a lot of the work in casting in terms of, like, what people were gonna bring. So they knew that they had all the elements. So that when we got to set, there was always, always. Liz called it a fun run at the end of it. And I get why that can't always happen on sets now. Understanding and like I said, having all these experiences where you actually learn how it works, where sometimes you just have to fucking get the shot and move on. And thank you for employing me and I'll see you later. But when you have the opportunity to actually play your character, that is really a fun opportunity that I like to get. And so a lot of the stuff that's in the show is stuff that I improvise during those fun runs or found during a blocking where I felt like I could throw something out. And it's just that communication with someone who's also a real comedian. She's like, a real comedian. And getting the opportunity for it to feel fun when you're doing it. And also the decisive way, they move on. You know what I mean? It's not moving on. And you can tell they still have a note. It's like, well, you're moving on and you have a note. And I feel like I didn't do it either. And that has happened to me a couple times where I'm like, well, fucking. Cause then you take it home with you.
- [32:14]
A
Oh, it's the worst.
- [32:15]
B
Whereas, like, someone who's, like, really instilled in you that you're the right person to play this and definitively moves on when they feel like they're done. Great.
- [32:25]
A
Yeah.
- [32:26]
B
Now I feel like I did my job as opposed to, did anyone do theirs?
- [32:32]
A
Yeah, you do need a captain of the team who's like, we got it. This is it. We got it.
- [32:39]
B
That's another thing you don't realize is, like. Like, good leadership is not common.
- [32:45]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean.
- [32:47]
B
Good leadership is not common.
- [32:49]
A
Yeah. And when you. When you were. When you work with someone who's a good leader, try to keep that job.
- [32:53]
B
You'Re like, thank God. And you're like, oh, my God, it's possible.
- [32:59]
A
Are you. What are you writing right now? Like, what does the blank page look for you? Like, for you right now?
- [33:07]
B
So right now, it's funny. Like, I have a couple things that I, like, have to do.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah.
- [33:13]
B
But then there's these things that I really want to do, which are nipping. And I find that the want to dos are more in the music space where I've been in for the past, like, month and a half and preparing for my tour and doing my tour and, like, connecting with my audiences in that way. And I think it took me a really long time to understand that. My process just is, I write up on my feet, and I'll, like, voice memo when I walk and I'm listening to music, or I'll give myself, like, just little notes. Like, I'm just, like, a scribbler, and I write a lot in piecemeal, and then it comes together later. I'm not someone who packs up his laptop for the coffee shop, opens it up, connects to the wifi, and. You know what I mean? It just doesn't work for me like that. So now that I understand my process, I just have to figure out a way to connect that to the assignments I have.
- [34:06]
A
Well, that's what Sedaris was saying the other day on this podcast is like, it's like, essentially, everything is observation.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah.
- [34:13]
A
And it's like. Like you're saying, like, if that's when you're walking around and you jot it in your notepad or on your phone, like, that's where it happens a lot.
- [34:21]
B
Of times with me. It's. I will sort of catalog how I'm feeling, and I'll just allow myself to talk to myself about how I'm feeling, and then I'll go back later and make fun of that. So there was a song on my album called Everything youg Want. I did it with the band Muna.
- [34:39]
A
Yes. Love that.
- [34:40]
B
And thank you. And so I was feeling so sad after a breakup. Like, so devastated.
- [34:46]
A
Yeah.
- [34:47]
B
That it Was comical. Like, I would find, like, angry scribbles on the back of checks around my apartment, like. And just laughing. Cause I'm like, where the fuck did that come from? Who is this crazy person?
- [34:58]
A
Yes.
- [34:59]
B
It's like, literally like that, but, like, the red string. Emotionally, for sure. And ultimately, one day, I. I made. I said to myself, like, I'm gonna do a nice exercise where I wish him things for Christmas.
- [35:12]
A
Yeah.
- [35:13]
B
And then I started writing, and I realized I couldn't think of anything. And I was like, that's the bit.
- [35:19]
A
Yeah.
- [35:19]
B
The fact that this relationship that was so important to you is not something you can actually wrap your head around. Right there it is. So it's like, almost like. Like, in the process, I interrogated myself.
- [35:30]
A
Yeah.
- [35:31]
B
And less like, I'm gonna sit down and write this thing. Like, for example, the last gift this person ever gave me was a gold chain. And I hung onto it for so long. And then one day, I was looking at it, and I was like, that's it. I'm taking it. I'm throwing it in the river. So I walk over to the river to throw this gold chain in the river, and then I think to myself, what if a fish chokes on it?
- [35:57]
A
Oh, my God.
- [35:58]
B
I was like, I can't get. I can't. I can't be responsible. I can't litter. I'm not gonna throw this in the. Like, I'm from Long Island. Like, I don't want to damage my seas. Like. And then I started to laugh because I was like, you're still beating yourself up in connection to this person.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah.
- [36:15]
B
And I was like, just throw it in the garbage. So I threw it in the garbage. But there was something funny about, like, doing this dramatic thing, and then the comedian part of you being like, babe, this is an unusual thing.
- [36:27]
A
You can't do it.
- [36:28]
B
But I had to do it on my feet. You know what I mean? I had to do it in process so that I could then interrogate myself. I wouldn't have thought about it sitting at a computer.
- [36:38]
A
This is why I always say to people who are writers, I'm like, write down what you're saddest about or angriest about, because that's the stuff that, when you come back to it later, is the most ripe.
- [36:50]
B
Yeah. But I didn't discover that part of myself as a creator until much later because I'm from the world of sketch. And it's so. Because I was the director of Hammer Cats, and very strident about coming in with a lot of Stuff. I was just thinking constantly about sketch scenarios, like, what could a nurse do? What could a lawyer say? And I ran out of gas on that. Kind of just in time, because I got all that out of my system. Like, I have this song on my album called Lube for the Sleigh about how Santa, in order to put all the gifts in his big bag, has to lube up the gifts so he can fit them all in the bag. And no one asks why Santa has so much lube. I'm like, that is such a creation of me at 26.
- [37:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:37]
B
Who's thinking about, like, abject comedy scenarios like that? But now I'm sort of more interrogating my emotions to find my comedy. And I think that's, like a growing up a little bit, but it is harder.
- [37:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Slow round. This is a slow round. What's a song that makes you cry?
- [38:01]
B
A song that makes me cry. There's a song from the Land Before Time, the dinosaur movie.
- [38:09]
A
Mm.
- [38:11]
B
It goes. If we hold on together, it's just really beautiful. And there's the last part of. It goes, Dream, see us through to forever. And then. I don't know the words, but it's the. The melody is. It's just so beautiful, and I don't know why. That's the song that I'm thinking of, but. Movie scores. Yeah, movie scores make me cry. Like, have you ever seen the movie Big Fish?
- [38:45]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [38:46]
B
Sometimes I'll just listen to, like, beautiful score. Yeah. Film scores get me, like, the Forrest Gump love theme. Like, with honestly. Movie scores. E.T.
- [38:57]
A
Yeah.
- [38:57]
B
If I. Like, sometimes I'll just go in my room and I'll just run around listening to E.T.
- [39:02]
A
Yeah.
- [39:02]
B
There's nothing like John Williams movie scores.
- [39:07]
A
What is the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?
- [39:10]
B
This is so funny. I went to a Screen Actors Guild screening of Zero Dark Thirty with Jessica Chastain, and someone raised their hand and was like, what's one piece of advice you would give a young actor? And I'll never forget what she said. And I applied it, and I do think it worked. She said, you know, when I was a bartender, which I was for many years, whenever I was busy, whatever, I did one thing every single day, big or small, that reminded me that I was an actor. One thing whether it was send an email, whether it was rehearse a whole scene, whether it was go on audition, whether it was just like. Like anything, one thing, big or small, every single day, to remind yourself, she said, why I'm an actor. I would say, remind yourself who you are.
- [39:56]
A
Sure.
- [39:56]
B
So I remember from that day on I just did, I would never go to bed without at least doing one thing that reminded me who I wanted to be in life.
- [40:25]
A
So here's the. Here's the thing I wrote down the other day, which is I realized the other day that my wife had been using my closet as garbage for about 16 years. Because I. I saw there was a stick with a nail coming out of it and, like, a beige tarp and some old stuffed animals.
- [40:44]
B
Yeah.
- [40:45]
A
It was like the weirdest serial killer starter kit because they kill you with the nails and then they cover the body with the tarp and then they throw you off the trail with the stuffed animals.
- [40:55]
B
Sure.
- [40:56]
A
And I said to Jen, I go, do you know where these came from? And she said, I put them there.
- [41:03]
B
Very serial killer.
- [41:04]
A
I said, why did you put them there? And she said, I didn't think you'd notice. And it's true. And she goes, I knew this day would come. I thought that was so funny. I knew this would come.
- [41:20]
B
I think this is a setup for your wife's serial killer behavior. You need to start looking at the cabinet. You need to look all over the house. This is a long legs two that I wanna see.
- [41:33]
A
This is an insane tyra. So in 2025, I'm gonna put all of my garbage in my wife's closet. I know that might sound like a sexual. And it is, but it also. It also isn't. It's both.
- [41:44]
B
I like, that junk is now garbage.
- [41:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
- [41:47]
B
Yeah, my junk is now my garbage.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah. So that was. That was. That was like the first bit that I've written in the new year.
- [41:54]
B
You have a pretty fully formed idea there.
- [41:56]
A
It's all right. I mean, it's like just. It's literally something that happened.
- [42:00]
B
Were you then able to look at your closet and be like, I understand why she'd think that, like, AKA this shirt is not great.
- [42:06]
A
Well, no, and it's. It spoke to, like, a level of. Of kind of what you were saying earlier of, like, the Jessica Chastain, like, remind yourself of, like, who you are, what you're doing. Like, that was my moment of, like, I'm garbage. My area is garbage for this person.
- [42:20]
B
Was it humbling or motivating?
- [42:21]
A
It was humbling. It was humbling and motivating. Yeah, it was both of the things, but it was definitely. And maybe that's where the bit goes. Maybe the bit goes into kind of a larger identity. Like, Wait, what am I doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause it is weird. Like, I'm not even exaggerating. It's like a piece of wood with nails in it is like on my floor and I'm like, I haven't even notice this. Like, what am I doing?
- [42:43]
B
Also it's like, why does she want to keep that?
- [42:46]
A
I don't know.
- [42:47]
B
I think honestly, she's planning to kill you.
- [42:49]
A
I think sometimes when it's. When you cohabitate, it's just like, where does the junk that no one understands go?
- [42:56]
B
Isn't it interesting? Like sometimes you'll. Whether you're in a rush or thinking absentmindedly where you'll put something.
- [43:02]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [43:03]
B
Do you hide things on yourself a lot? I do, no.
- [43:07]
A
But I don't hide stuff as much as like I'll be in a hotel room on the road and it's like I have a muffin and it's like that thing's going down the toilet. Because it's like there's nowhere. I will not eat that fucking muffin.
- [43:18]
B
Really?
- [43:18]
A
Oh my God. Yeah, because it's like there's like, there's certain things like muffins, cake, things like that. There's no way that thing makes it through the night. No, there's no way. It could be fucking 11 o'clock at night. And I'm going, where's gonna wake up at 1:30 or I'm gonna wake up at 6am I'm gonna eat that fucking muffin.
- [43:38]
B
And you don't want to?
- [43:39]
A
No, and I don't want to eat it. I just know I shouldn't really have it. I've eaten too much and then I like, I just flush down the toilet.
- [43:45]
B
See, my problem is I have so much self control all day I'm like, I'm doing great, I'm eating well. I have that horrible gay guy thing of like, I'll do intermittent fasting or like I'll wait till after I work out to eat. Like sometimes I do that thing where it's like I speak to myself in that abusive way that a modern gay man does. Where it's like, we have to look like this and do this. And then I smoke weed at night.
- [44:11]
A
And then you eat crazy checkers.
- [44:14]
B
Wendy's can't get more garbage. Enough. That's my junk, my garbage that I put inside my own body. Oh, of course I was watching the movie. It's absurd.
- [44:23]
A
Especially the Golden Globes, like the ads during it.
- [44:25]
B
It's like, oh, they know stoners are.
- [44:27]
A
Watching they totally know.
- [44:28]
B
Yes, they know.
- [44:29]
A
It's totally so funny. I'm like, that's not even food.
- [44:31]
B
No, 100%. But they make it look like food. They do this incredible pageantry with, like when a br. Like when a piece of meat that has never set foot in any of these fast food joints, like, hits the grill and it sizzles in the juice. I'm like, that is a two pound piece of beef.
- [44:51]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [44:52]
B
That you wouldn't even know what to do with at McDonald's.
- [44:55]
A
Of course.
- [44:56]
B
At the kitchens at McDonald's. No, ma'am, sir. Or more. And I have to tell you, the way the fries sizzle, it's like, what am I supposed to do? I'm powerless now. And then it arrives and it's like a soppy piece of bread.
- [45:11]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [45:11]
B
And not as many chicken nuggets as advertised.
- [45:13]
A
None of that's food.
- [45:15]
B
Doesn't make any sense.
- [45:16]
A
All right, what's the bit you're working on? Unless it was the bit that you were talking about earlier.
- [45:21]
B
It kind of was that. But I guess. You know what I'm curious to do? Where did I put my coat? I'm curious to find a sentence that I said to myself that is so absurd and harmful and see what we can do with it. Remember how I said, like, I'll write something really nasty?
- [45:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
- [45:38]
B
I'm just gonna pick the first. The literal first thing. Okay, so this says.
- [45:45]
A
This is.
- [45:47]
B
This is vulnerable. This is about the gold chain. This is the line. I tossed the chain in the water. The gold one that you gave to me. That was the last thing I clung to. Now it belongs to the sea.
- [45:58]
A
Oh, my God. Of course. Of course it does. Like, it's now belongs to the sea. Like, it's Shakespearean. It's like a Greek tragedy.
- [46:05]
B
Now it belongs to the sea. And like, here's the thing is, it's like I know myself and this will get funny in a second. But sometimes when it comes to, like, doing musical comedy, I will sit on the joke for a little bit longer than is comfortable and do a genuine song. And then it will come in to the point where sometimes I'm a little bit nervous. Like, am I waiting too long? Am I waiting too long? But then I'm always happy I waited longer.
- [46:28]
A
Long. No, that's a great. What a great, specific example of something you put in. You genuinely feel that. You feel that way about the. The chain that your ex gave you.
- [46:40]
B
Because then I have. But what if a fish chokes on the Chain and dies. What if a dolphin or something intelligent suffers and perishes because I had to make this dramatic gesture? Now I'm responsible for the death of the oceans, the death of the seas. I killed the coral reef. It was me. I should know better. I should not let you make me a killer and let. I might have you off my neck, but I'm still full of regret. There's something there.
- [47:00]
A
Well, it's funny because it's like. It also speaks to the fact that, like, that the line between comedy and tragedy is a thin line.
- [47:10]
B
Right.
- [47:10]
A
It's like, which way do you want to take it? You could take that fully dramatic story. It could be a piece of a play, part of a poem.
- [47:16]
B
It could be beautiful.
- [47:17]
A
Yeah, because it's title of ep. Well, because ultimately, well, it's, you know, stepping out into the working it out universe. Because it's vivid. Yeah, it's a vivid feeling you felt.
- [47:28]
B
About a real thing. It was a POV scenario I was really in. And the fact that I was able to do the thing of, like, it just reminds me of those times when I'm like, there's something here, like your own unusual thing that is specific. It felt like a gold mine. And so I'm working on it.
- [47:47]
A
I would just say, like, honestly, like, I would just free right out on.
- [47:50]
B
Yeah.
- [47:50]
A
And just extrapolate out on, like, all the feelings you had on that. Because that's gonna make. Is it gonna be a song, do you think?
- [47:59]
B
Probably. I mean, I went all the way to the coral reef, so I'm getting real international about it.
- [48:03]
A
No, I think it's great. And I think, like. Yeah, I mean, I think, like, the. The fact that you. You felt that way is, I think, is what makes it funny.
- [48:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, and yeah, it's. It's so funny too, because, like, sometimes the reason why you have those intense emotions that would want to go into like a joke or a set or a new show, potentially a whole thing or a song or whatever it is, is because you're angry at someone and you don't want them to have the credit, Right. And then all of a sudden, like, they inspired some really cool thing that you wrote and you're like, fuck.
- [48:39]
A
Right? And also, like, there could be like a, like an ebb and flow with it in relation to like. Like a major key part of the song where it's like, I'm doing great.
- [48:49]
B
Yeah, exactly. I mean, in my. In my song, everything you want, the whole bridge is me being like, I should go to rehab.
- [48:55]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
- [48:56]
B
I can't remember a thing about this person I spent a long, like a time with. Like, I might have a problem. Like it's. It's fun when you can. Not to improv terminology, but like, if that's true, what else is true?
- [49:08]
A
Yeah, of course. If that's true, what else is true? I think that's always like, you know what I'm thinking of. I'm writing my next movie right now and it's like, it's like, I think it's true when I'm writing movie scripts. I think it's true when I'm writing stand up comedy. If this is true, what else is true? Is always a good way to get out of a writer's block or a rut. It's like, just step out, go. If this, what else? If this, what else? If this, what else? But yeah, I think, like, that's a. I think that's a really funny example of like. Of like, it's how you felt. And also it's absurd.
- [49:43]
B
Yeah. It's insane.
- [49:44]
A
Yeah.
- [49:44]
B
And then the fun part is finding. Well, for me anyway, the really fun part is finding the genre that attaches to it. Sometimes it's just like. Sometimes it's really obvious.
- [49:54]
A
Yeah.
- [49:55]
B
And other times it's harder. Like, you know, XYZ joke about Whatever is obviously a country song. You know, this is obviously like a. Like a powerful girl pop anthem. This is obviously that. And sometimes it's harder, but that can be fun.
- [50:11]
A
Also, there's a version of it which, because it's so kind of like sad and this feels like a balance dismissive and all that kind of stuff. Like the idea of at the end of the song that, like he calls or something and you entirely flipped and you were like, but I love him. You know what I mean? Which I think is always kind of a fun way to experiment with, which is like, what if the opposite.
- [50:36]
B
I mean, I do. I used to be the king of reversals. At the end of my sketches, friends were like, there's another reversal from Matt. And I'm like, oh, do I do that a lot? But they are fun. I like that.
- [50:46]
A
It's not always the right choice, but it's always like, like, you know, the Byron Katie. Like, is it true? Is it definitely true? What if. What if it weren't true? And then she goes, what if the opposite were true?
- [50:58]
B
Yeah.
- [50:58]
A
And in comedy, I think that's a great lesson too.
- [51:01]
B
Yes. Always.
- [51:01]
A
What if the opposite were true? Then how do you feel? Then all of a sudden that becomes oh, yeah, yeah, Fuck that.
- [51:08]
B
Cause it's always funny to have realized that the person on stage has put a lot of effort and energy into something that ultimately didn't matter. So that was a misunderstanding.
- [51:18]
A
And it's so vulnerable because you literally put your heart on the stage and then also.
- [51:23]
B
And just forget I just said it.
- [51:25]
A
Exactly.
- [51:25]
B
Especially when, like, for me, anyway, I feel like I often portray a more powerful character on stage than I am in real life. And so to sometimes, like, have that at the end is like. It's fun for me and for the audience.
- [51:37]
A
I think. I think it's right. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to support? We will contribute to them and then link to them in the show notes. Encourage listeners.
- [51:51]
B
Yeah, so it was actually a big part of my development as a performer as well. When I was in my early 20s, I joined an organization called Story Pirates. I'm sure that you're familiar with.
- [52:00]
A
Great.
- [52:00]
B
Yeah, they're the best. And now they're Story Pirates. Change makers. When I was coming up in my 20s, they were a really amazing group of, you know, actors, writers, improvisers, dancers, singers, et cetera. Just like New York theater people and comedians who would go to elementary schools and take the stories written by kids, and then they would surprise the kids by going back and performing those stories for them. It was the first time that, you know, a lot of these kids had thought about the fact that they could write a story that would be performed.
- [52:32]
A
Sure.
- [52:33]
B
Just always was very moved by the things I saw being a part of that company. And I know they have a podcast now, and they're still an incredible, very vital organization. And I guess what I'm most passionate about is encouraging kids through arts now because I think if I think it's just. It just activates a different part of the brain. So I really. I always push people towards that organization because they're good people. They do great things. Storypirates.com I love story Pirates.
- [53:03]
A
I've. You know, I did a couple benefits.
- [53:06]
B
I think I remember that actually. Yeah. That's why when I was telling you, I was like, I think he'll know this.
- [53:10]
A
No, I. I think Story Pirates is amazing. And like, Kristen Schaal did it, you know, like, there's a lot of legends who came through Story Pirates.
- [53:18]
B
Bowen and I used to go. We would do like, shows at like, 6:30 in the morning. We'd get on like a train to like, some far out, you know, Connecticut or Jersey thing, and we'd perform for these kids and, you know, we would do, like, little improv shows. The kids would shout out suggestions and we'd put on different wigs quickly backstage, and all of a sudden you come out and you were a king. And it was. Blew their minds because they had just said they wanted a king. All of a sudden, there's a king.
- [53:41]
A
Oh, my God.
- [53:41]
B
Like, it was. It's just cool to watch. To watch them get smacked in the head with that idea that, oh, my God, I can create something.
- [53:51]
A
Oh, my God.
- [53:52]
B
Which is so. It feels. Feels like, you know, silly to just put it that simply. But that's how simple it was. That's how simple it was. It was these kids finally being empowered in their creativity and imagination. And that, to me, is like, you could see, like, a formative moment happening.
- [54:09]
A
Yeah.
- [54:09]
B
And that is so special.
- [54:12]
A
Matt, this has been the best.
- [54:13]
B
I love this. I was so excited to come here.
- [54:16]
A
All right, thanks for doing that.
- [54:17]
B
Are you kidding me?
- [54:17]
A
Of course. Working it Out. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out. You can follow Matt Rogers on Instagram at Rogers, though that's t h o. You can watch Matt in no Good Deed along with Ray Romano and Lisa Kudrow on Netflix. And check out Matt's amazing comedy special. Have you heard of Christmas on show time? Please consider donating to the relief efforts in Los Angeles. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, ikebirbiglia. Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos. Check out brbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simon. Sound mix by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying it, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people find the show. And if you're new to the podcast and you enjoyed this episode, we have almost 160 other episodes that we've done. They're not behind a paywall. They're free right now. We've had Roy Wood Jr. We've had Stephen Colbert there. We've had Maria Bamford and Alana Glaser. So many great ones. Check out our back catalog and comment on Apple Podcasts, which is your favorite. That is so helpful. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell yourself. Remember Matt's Jessica Chastain advice. If you if you're an actor, do one thing every day to remind yourself you're an actor. If you're a creative person, do one thing that reminds yourself of that. That maybe it's listening to this podcast. I don't want to assume, but I will say a bunch of folks out on my tour have said that that's their experience of the show. It sort of sometimes sparks inspiration, and I'm thrilled to hear that. All of us who work on the show, we love to hear that. We appreciate you so much. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.