162. Pete Holmes Returns: Comedy That’s Clean, Dirty, or PG-13

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out – Episode 162: "Pete Holmes Returns: Comedy That’s Clean, Dirty, or PG-13"

In Episode 162 of Mike Birbiglia's "Working It Out," titled "Pete Holmes Returns: Comedy That’s Clean, Dirty, or PG-13," Mike Birbiglia welcomes comedian Pete Holmes back to the show. The episode delves deep into the nuances of comedy styles, particularly focusing on clean, dirty, and PG-13 humor. Through engaging banter, thoughtful discussions, and collaborative joke development, Mike and Pete explore the intricacies of crafting comedic material that resonates with diverse audiences.

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1. Introduction and Warm-Up Banter (00:00 – 04:00)

The episode kicks off with Mike Birbiglia and Pete Holmes engaging in their signature playful roasting. Mike humorously critiques Pete’s appearance:

• Mike Birbiglia (00:00): "I want to roast you all the time, but you look good. And I'm sorry I said you were going to die before me."
• Pete Holmes (00:07): "I appreciate it. I love seeing you."

This light-hearted exchange sets a friendly tone, highlighting their close friendship and mutual respect.

2. Pete Holmes' Current Projects and Tour (04:00 – 06:00)

Pete shares updates about his recent activities and upcoming tour:

• Pete Holmes (00:28): "This is a spur of the moment idea I had the other day because I'm about to do my final shows at The Beacon Theater, March 16 through 22, after touring the show and developing the show the Good Life over the course of two years."

He explains how their collaboration came about, emphasizing the spontaneous and organic nature of their joke-working session.

3. Exploring Clean, Dirty, and PG-13 Comedy (06:00 – 19:00)

The core of the episode revolves around defining and discussing different comedy styles:

• Mike Birbiglia (03:21): "Disagree. It's over. We're back to, like, birthday clowns. Just straight up entertain me. Make a balloon giraffe. I just need it. Look, need it."

Pete and Mike debate the resurgence and relevance of puns in modern comedy, with Pete expressing skepticism:

• Pete Holmes (03:37): "I disagree."
• Mike Birbiglia (04:30): "And I go, oh, that's good."

They reference other comedians known for their clean styles, such as Jim Gaffigan and Jerry Seinfeld, discussing the boundaries of what constitutes clean versus dirty humor.

4. Influence of Religious Background on Comedy (15:00 – 17:50)

The conversation shifts to how their Christian upbringing in 1980s Massachusetts influences their comedic perspectives:

• Pete Holmes (05:25): "How would you define it? Because I think in terms of the listenership, I would say, like, half the people know, and probably maybe half people don't. Don't think about it."
• Mike Birbiglia (13:31): "I deeply resent the idea that God likes you more if you don't swear."

They explore the tension between personal authenticity and audience expectations, pondering whether being clean compromises the depth and honesty of their comedy.

5. Developing and Refining Jokes Together (19:00 – 33:00)

Mike and Pete engage in a collaborative joke development session, sharing and critiquing each other's bits:

• Mike Birbiglia (33:20): "I'm gonna try and just remember it instead of reading it to you, but I'm doing this joke. I think this opening line is very, very funny."
• Pete Holmes (34:46): "What do you think they're doing with it? Making crafts."

They work through premises about recycling and personal habits, offering constructive feedback to enhance the comedic impact while maintaining the desired style (clean or dirty).

6. Personal Anecdotes and Comedic Inspirations (27:00 – 39:00)

Sharing personal stories, Pete reflects on his childhood confessions and relationship with religion, providing material that bridges humor with introspection:

• Pete Holmes (15:45): "I did a few times where it's just you and the priest and it's just you in two chairs."
• Mike Birbiglia (27:04): "You mean more magical, more."

These anecdotes serve as a foundation for crafting jokes that are both relatable and thought-provoking, illustrating how personal experiences shape comedic narratives.

7. The Business of Comedy and Audience Engagement (39:00 – 41:34)

Mike discusses the business side of comedy, emphasizing the importance of ticket sales and audience reach:

• Mike Birbiglia (20:19): "The other argument is Chappelle Burr, Louis, Shane Gillis, you know, I'm just talking about big, big comedians."

They also touch upon the significance of having supportive friends and collaborators in the creative process.

8. Concluding Remarks and Future Collaborations (41:34 – End)

As the episode wraps up, Mike and Pete reflect on their collaborative process and tease future projects:

• Pete Holmes (41:39): "Cause it's not done."
• Mike Birbiglia (41:42): "We're working it out."

They invite listeners to attend Pete’s upcoming shows and encourage engagement through various platforms, reinforcing the community aspect of their podcast.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Mike Birbiglia (00:00): "I want to roast you all the time, but you look good."
• Pete Holmes (05:25): "If you wanted your touring business to be two or three or four times bigger, I would put the word clean in the title of your hour that you're touring with."
• Mike Birbiglia (14:45): "Holiness is wholeness. It's including everything, all the feelings, weird rage, embarrassment, shame."
• Pete Holmes (18:39): "It was the first day off I've had in a while. Day off, meaning like a day where I can actually, like, focus and work because I've been solo parenting."
• Mike Birbiglia (27:38): "If you have some of the great comedians of the last 30, 40 years, they all curse. They all curse for sure."
• Pete Holmes (37:14): "Like, I was a kid, my grandmother gave me rosary beads."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Defining Comedy Styles: Mike and Pete dissect what differentiates clean, dirty, and PG-13 comedy, considering personal beliefs and audience expectations.

2. Authenticity vs. Audience Reach: The balance between staying true to one's comedic voice and adapting to broaden audience appeal is a central theme.

3. Collaborative Creativity: The episode underscores the value of collaboration in refining and developing humor, showcasing how constructive feedback enhances comedic material.

4. Personal Influences: Drawing from personal experiences, especially their religious backgrounds, adds depth and relatability to their humor.

5. Business of Comedy: Understanding market dynamics and audience preferences plays a crucial role in a comedian's success and reach.

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This episode of "Working It Out" offers a comprehensive exploration of comedic styles, enriched by the insightful and humorous dynamic between Mike Birbiglia and Pete Holmes. Whether you're a fan of clean jokes or appreciate the edgier side of humor, this episode provides valuable perspectives on crafting comedy that is both meaningful and entertaining.

Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

I want to roast you all the time, but you look good. And I'm sorry I said you were going to die before me. You know, sometimes it's hard to hear the truth.

[Pete Holmes]

I appreciate it. I love seeing you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You look like a guy in a footlocker trying on running shoes. And people who see you go, aww.

[Pete Holmes]

Like he's trying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you're like a real. Bless his heart. Running shoe purchase.

[Pete Holmes]

That is the voice of the great Pete Holmes. We are so excited to have him back. This is a spur of the moment idea I had the other day because I'm about to do my final shows at The Beacon Theater, March 16 through 22, after touring the show and developing the show the Good Life over the course of two years. And I was gonna call Pete to ask about punching up some jokes for it. And then I was like, you know what, let's record it and see what jokes he's working on. Cause he just filmed a special and so he is at square one. And so he had some bits. And then we ended up in this big digression about the nature of clean comedy versus not clean comedy and all this kind of stuff. It ended up being great. Thanks to everyone, by the way, who's been coming out to the shows. The final performances of Please Stop the Ride, slash what it's called now, which is the Good Life. And the shows have been really, really cool. The Largo shows in Los Angeles this week are sold out. A portion of the proceeds are going to fire relief efforts. I'm very excited to be returning to Los Angeles and then back at the Beacon Theater. Only a few tickets left. Go to burbigs.com for tickets. I love talking to Pete today. One of my favorite people to work out jokes with. If you like listening to Pete, he has a great podcast. It's called you'd made it weird. I've been on a bunch of times. It is a fantastic podcast. If you like the working it out section of this podcast, typically this is the episode for you. We go deep on jokes. We razz each other a bit. We were close friends and we do that sometimes. I think you're really going to enjoy my chat with the great Pete Holmes. So I wanted to run a couple jokes because I was basically just going to call you the other day and run a couple premises by you because.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You talking through a burp is the truest you like. You are the guy.

[Pete Holmes]

That's fair, that's fair.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's you. We love you. But it's like Mikey talking through A burp is how we'll remember you.

[Pete Holmes]

Why do you say you'll remember me as though you're gonna outlive me in this kind of, like, overconfident way? It's just like, I can't take it. Am I walking around the world assuming everyone's assuming I'm gonna die soon?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, no, no. I would love to. Yes. And that. And, like, really tear into you, but that's too delicate. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying when we are both long gone, they'll be like, Mike Bir. And people would be like, who? You know, the guy who talked through burps? And they'll go like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mike Burp Iglia.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, God, that's. That made it worse. That's what made you immortal comedically, is you had a very funny premise and then you turned it into a pun.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Puns are back. That's a big part of my new hours.

[Pete Holmes]

I. Puns are not back. Puns are not back. They'll never be back.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's 2025. We need all the help we can get. Puns, take them.

[Pete Holmes]

I disagree.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mike Biglia disagrees.

[Pete Holmes]

I think that Mike burp biglia degrades what was funny about everything that came before it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Disagree. It's over. We're back to, like, birthday clowns. Just straight up entertain me. Make a balloon giraffe. I just need it. Look, need it. And that's what.

[Pete Holmes]

Arguably. Arguably one of my best jokes in my last special was on a mater. Pizza. That the word pizza has pizza in it. Each of the Z's is a slice. The A is a slice. It's five slices in one word on about a pizza.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And did you say that the P looks like the thing they slide it out of the oven with?

[Pete Holmes]

No, that's. I should have, though. I should have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's a free one. There's a free one.

[Pete Holmes]

For never. For never. Yeah, for now. For now. But. But I think that. That in my opinion, your pun has to be as good as onomata pizza.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have puns, Mikey, that are so good that I will not tell them to you now because they're some of the best parts of the act I didn't plan.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't believe you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I will tell you off air that I have some puns that are on them on a pizza level, and I'm so proud of them. Here's why no one wants a pun that you set out to make a pun. If you're writing a joke and then there's a perfect pun. People can smell that, like, real pheromone attraction. They love it. You can't fake it. You go, that pun deserves to live. Most puns get them out of here. But if you get a perfect on Amana pizza, we love it.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, that was the famous thing Jay Leno said about Michael Jackson jokes. Michael Jackson jokes. If you. If you have a Michael Jackson joke, better be the best one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, and he sure tried every other one, too.

[Pete Holmes]

He tried every other one?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Take it from him. He looked for them like truffles, and then he found. He found a couple good ones.

[Pete Holmes]

Wait, so. So you and I were talking on the phone yesterday about clean comedy versus not clean comedy. And it was funny because, you know, the younger producers on the show, Mabel and Gary, are less familiar even with the concept of clean comedy. But in our generation, it's a huge thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it is. And I've given it.

[Pete Holmes]

How would you define it? How would you define it? Because I think in terms of the listenership, I would say, like, half the people know, and probably maybe half people don't. Don't think about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, Mikey, I lost sleep last night because we talked about clean comedy. Because I was trying to define it.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, yeah, I think because you and I grew up in the same kind of like, 1980s Massachusetts Christian background. And I think you and I both have that kind of good boy. And I think even Alex Edelman, I think, has a joke about this in his special Just for Us, about wanting to be a good boy. And I feel like it is a Massachusetts thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's also a trope for lots of people. I think everything that happens psychologically just happens more in Massachusetts.

[Pete Holmes]

That's a funny take. I've never heard that before.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That.

[Pete Holmes]

By the way, Jenny was here in the studio with me a few minutes ago, and I was like, what would you ask Pete? And she was like, it's just an observation about Pete, which is that Pete is. He is a fountain of humor all the time. And whenever you're on the phone with him, you're always like, hey, write that down, Pete. Hey, Pete, write that down. That thing you just said, write that down. And it's literally the thing you're saying about Massachusetts is a bit. By the way, I want to be clear. That's a bit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Everything that is psychologically disturbing about the country is more. Well, when I say the country, it sounds political. I just mean everything that's always been happening with men, women, children, families happens at an extreme. And, Mikey, I'M being real. My favorite joke. It just so happens that the hour that I'm doing right now, the new new. Not the one I just filmed, but the new new, just so happens to be pretty clean.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, there's one bitch. I say bitch, but in the voice of Kermit. That kind of softens it.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay, sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's. It does soften. I think that keeps it in bounds. And there's one joke that I really love about stopping Hitler by. I don't want to kill baby Hitler. People always talk about killing baby Hitler. I don't want to kill baby Hitler. I want to push Hitler's dad off of Hitler's mom at a key moment, like, while they're having sex. And the joke is. And you couldn't ruin this joke. I've heard this joke a thousand times, and I laugh every time. It's my favorite joke. And Hitler's dad goes. I push his sweaty, naked ham body off of him, and he spins and he goes, m. Jesum.

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right? Is that clean?

[Pete Holmes]

It feels pretty clean to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You think so?

[Pete Holmes]

I don't know. I just don't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm over here. Here's.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think of it that way, I guess. I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Here's. Here's the benchmark, though. Gaffigan would not do that joke. Baratsi would not do that joke.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Neither.

[Pete Holmes]

Those are. Those are archetypal clean comics at this moment. Gaff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Seinfeld wouldn't do it.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, yeah. Gaffigan, Seinfeld, Nate Barotzi are all super clean.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ryan Hamilton.

[Pete Holmes]

Ryan Hamilton wouldn't say that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He wouldn't say mine. Jizz. And I isn't trying to say with no joke in my voice. Yeah, he wouldn't say mine.

[Pete Holmes]

J. All of these people, I think, are very funny. I think I said to you yesterday, and we'll cut this out if you don't want to mention it, but I said, if you wanted your touring business to be two or three or four times bigger, I would put the word clean in the title of your hour that you're touring with. Because what I'm noticing, and this is by accident, is people are coming up to me out of nowhere and just going, I loved your hour. It was so clean. And I did not intend that at all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And by the way, I don't even view it as clean. I. Like you're saying, like, I talk about. I. You know, I mentioned masturbation and porn and things that are. I mean, for God's sakes. I'm talking about my dad having a stroke. I'm talking. It's pretty intense actually. Yeah, the topics are very adult.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is helpful to me. This is what I lost sleep over going like, can I do that Hitler dad joke? And I was like, I came back to the title for my special. I went through a lot of things, I went through a lot of ideas. And I think I'm close to calling the next tour the PG13 tour. I think that's the cleanest, fastest way to say all new, mostly clean, all funny or something like that. But like mostly clean. Because you can't, I don't think you can claim, if you call the special the Tour Clean Pete or something like that. Yeah, people are gonna be, I think that be in their rights to be a little disappointed that I'm talking about Hitler's dad jizzing. I think that would be over the line. Even though I'm not swearing. I happen to think in my marrow that that is a clean joke. I think we've talked about this before. There's clean and there's ugly. But I think I'm very close to having an hour where I don't have to say fuck or cock or all these things that I love to say. I think I can take out a lot of the like, sex stuff. I don't have any sex stuff, really. I don't have any porn stuff in this hour. So if the dirtiest joke is about stopping Hitler from being born by pushing his dad off of his mom while he climaxes, I'm like, I feel like I can hide under the umbrella of mostly clean called the PG13 tour. What do you think?

[Pete Holmes]

I. I'm for. I'm for the PG13 tour. I think that's a good title. I think the graphics line up really easily cuz the. It's got the famous MPAA symbol. I think it's great. I think I have a theory on the cultural obsession with, with clean comedy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I do, I have endless theories. But go on, please.

[Pete Holmes]

So I'll say mine and then you say yours. Mine is. You have some of the great comedians of the last 30, 40 years are Lenny Bruce, Richard Prior, maybe Eddie Murphy, maybe George Carlin. Right? And then maybe Chris Rock. Right. I'm just like laying out like a handful of comedians who can all agree, like our trailblazers in certain ways, etc. They all curse. They all curse for sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A lot of people are going to comedy for the shock of someone who's unafraid to speak honestly. Yeah, right.

[Pete Holmes]

So in the wake of those extraordinarily popular comedians. You have a generation of comedians who curse because they're modeling what those guys did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's true. And I started then.

[Pete Holmes]

They stink.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Not all of them. Not all of them. No. I know. They just. By the laws of. Of odds, let's say you have a thousand, a thousand comedians and 800 stink. And two of them, 200 of them are really good. So the 800 who stink, people who go, and they see that person cursing and talking about sex and all this stuff and they stink. And you're just going, oh, what's wrong with it is that they were dirty. And it's like, no, no. What's wrong with it is they stink.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They stink. Yeah, I completely agree. Look, I'll talk out of both sides of my face. On one hand, I can really appreciate clean comedy. Nate Bargazi is one of my all time favorites. And when I see Nate, I see someone being authentically themselves. Right? And the parallel for me is a magician who does card magic. There's David Copperfield who's got, you know, tigers and hoops and flying, and then there's David Blaine who's just doing card magic. To me, clean comedy is like card magic. It's like, look, I can wow you with just 52 cards and that's kind of like, I can wow you and I'll be clean. It's just kind of more impressive. It's juggling blindfolded.

[Pete Holmes]

I'll leave out these nine words that I know are going to push your buttons if I say them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You could go on stage and just yell, fuck. You'll get a laugh. You'll get a little laugh. It won't be a big laugh. Depends on how you perform it. The other side of my face, though, and this is where my own psychology and my own past comes up, is I deeply resent the idea that God likes you more if you don't swear. And that was part of my messaging. That was part of what I imagine my own package to be, which is the guy who talks about God and deeply and thinks deeply about God and cares about that and also talks about everything. I think there's a real message to that. Holiness is wholeness. It's including everything, all the feelings, weird rage, embarrassment, shame. It's not acting. It's not whistling in the dark and pretending that you only say golly gee. And that's the part that, like, can upset me. But I'm starting to get over that. I don't think most people think of it in that way because there are people that just want to go to the show with their family or they want to go to the show and know that they're not going to be embarrassed with their in laws or their boss. I get that. So I'm starting to like, take some. Listen to how much meaning I gave it. God likes you more because you like. I'm taking it too seriously.

[Pete Holmes]

I went to confession when I was a kid in the Catholic Church where if people don't know what this is, it's in every improv scene ever or sketch comedy. Yeah, it's you and a priest for some reason, behind closed doors.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's a wall between you.

[Pete Holmes]

There's a wall between you. Sometimes there's not, though. I did it once, I did a few times where it's just you and the priest and it's just you in two chairs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Mikey, that's a sauna. You were in a sauna. There's no wall. It's no longer a confession.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, my God. That's right. It was a sauna. We were naked and I was sw. I totally forgot the details. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He just has the collar on.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, Jesus.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so that's how they go in saunas.

[Pete Holmes]

When I was a kid, I did a confession and I would say, you know, forgive me, I've sinned, I've been, I've. I cursed, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, that's not a sin.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know.

[Pete Holmes]

It's actually literally.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it literally isn't a sin.

[Pete Holmes]

And no priest, not a single priest. When I went 10 or 20 or 30 times a confession, not a single priest goes, hey, hey, I'm going to stop you short there. Don't mean to cut you short, nine year old. But that's actually not a sin because not in the Bible. It's not anywhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm sure some of them were thinking it. Here's the issue. Swearing and teen pregnancy are what I would call visual. One of them, you hear. But they're overt sins.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay?

[Mike Birbiglia]

The church is not going on a rampage against coveting your neighbor's wife. It's not going on a rampage against even lying.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's going on a rampage against the ones that are really bad for its image. And if you and I understand this, by the way, I'm not. I don't fault this if you have a congregation of people that keep saying cocksucker or like it looks bad.

[Pete Holmes]

Similarly, the optics aren't great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

If you have a congregation and all the teenage girls are pregnant. That's why the emphasis on these things, it causes the whole thing to fall apart. Mickey Mouse cannot smoke a cigarette while he's on duty. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's wrong. So we're not even talking about sin or theology. We're talking about marketing. And I don't say that dismissively or to put it down. I'm just saying that's just good business. You should tell the kids not to swear because it looks bad.

[Pete Holmes]

See, I think you should. I mean, I'm not. I'm not laughing because I feel like you're. What you're describing is like a great thesis and like a setup for jokes. But I think if you did this with jokes, I think it would be really good in your show, because I feel like people don't think about this that much. Like that. That a majority of the things that you're. That you're essentially going to confession saying, I've sinned, I did this wrong, actually aren't things that are necessarily wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, so.

[Pete Holmes]

Whereas. Whereas, by the way, saying the Lord's name in vain is technically a sin. Right. According to the Christian theology, saying the.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Lord's name in vain doesn't mean saying Jesus Christ when you step your toe. It means swearing by Jesus, by Yahweh, and saying you will do something and swearing on his name and thereby saying it in vain. It wasn't saying, oh, my God. It was saying, I say by the name of Yahweh that I will give you this, this, and land. It was like a legal thing. Not legal. It was more like a document. It was more like your word. It was like, don't pledge Yahweh to something that you're not going to do. That would be using his name in vain. I swear, by Yahweh, we will. This, this, and this. That's using the Lord's name in vain. But we turned it into some bullshit.

[Pete Holmes]

But it's interesting. Like, when I was starting out and I was tour the south, the thing that they would object to was not cursing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It was saying the phrase God damn. Or I quote, my dad going, God damn it, I'm eating pretzels or whatever. And they would go, actually, when I come off stage, they go, don't say the GD word. That.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My mom is the same way. She. She hates. I have a joke in my new hour where for some reason I say Jesus Christ, even though I don't say that. I don't really say that in my everyday life, but, you know, without being Too self important here. There's times you're writing a joke, it's like a little piece of music. And Jesus Christ is the right attitude in that moment. It's a joke about how the people who are bad at changing pronouns based on someone's gender identity are the same group that get really mad if you call their truck a car. And I go, let's take your car. And he goes, it's a truck. And I go, jesus Christ. That's the right kind of exclamation in that moment. It's better than any other. I tried other ones. And I know my mom is gonna be, you know, upset about that.

[Pete Holmes]

Right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which is so funny to me. I'm like, what a beautiful joke. I'm defending sticking up for a group that, you know, comedians have. Have been putting down. And she'll only get lost in that. And again, but even that. And I don't wanna make this whole podcast about, I'll just say this. There are things I would like to get over because it feels good to get over things. I'd like to get over what it means to be clean and just be like, maybe it's just nice, maybe it's just fun.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, it was funny because you said. You said to me yesterday, I go, you should consider you could double or triple your business potentially if you went out as clean. You were like, you. I'm paraphrasing, but you're like, I'd rather be dead.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, because I got. I am an artist. Let's put on my artist hat. It has a feather. There's a part of me that's really like, I'm an artist. And I didn't get into this to not tell you how I feel. Exactly how I feel. And when you grew up in a household that rewarded you for being this whitewashed, clean, fake version of yourself. Of course, when I became a grownup, I couldn't wait to be like Bill Burr. Look, the other argument is Chappelle Burr, Louis, Shane Gillis, you know, I'm just talking about big, big comedians. Segura. These are. These are people out there that are having their cake and eating it too, as far as I'm concerned.

[Pete Holmes]

But your point is about those comedians is that they can lean into that because their audience is, like, there for it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They're there for it. And I would like to find it's. It's proving, look, I'm happy with my draw. Would I like to have this next hour? I think this next hour is ready to be a theater act. It's Ready to be an exclusive, like a larger audience. I think it's four more people. I think calling it PG13 might help reach more people. But I would also, secretly, in my dream of dreams, I'd like to find people that are like, I'm a good person, I'm an interesting person. I'm a thoughtful person. I'm a kind person. I care about the meaning of life. I care about our shared divinity. I care about God, whatever you might want to say. And. And I like hearing jokes about Hitler's dad jizzing on the carpet. Like, I sort of. That would be my dream of dreams. But if that's not going to happen, we'll call PG13 and see if I can't rope in a bigger group, because I'm very proud of my standup. That's where we started is I'm out here trying to sell TV shows. And you were like, you're such a dear friend to me. Because I was like, I don't know. Do I really want to sell a TV show? And you were like, if you were the. In the top 200 in the world at anything, why would you try and do something adjacent to it? Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, if I could tour bigger, I would happily just do stand up. What do you.

[Pete Holmes]

Top 200 computer programmer in the world. You wouldn't be like, I should really spend more time sailing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so. It's so funny. Honestly, I hope everyone listening out there has those touchstone friends, those anchor friends.

[Pete Holmes]

And just. And just to anchor this in reality, what I meant was top 2000.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Very funny.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay, here's a couple jokes I'm trying to figure out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, one is just like. And these are like. Some of these are like throwaway lines that are in this special where I'm like, oh, it could be a bit, but I just haven't spent enough time with it on stage. And one of them is about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've done stand up before. I'm just saying what you're saying. This is such a relatable thing. It's like, that could be something. Something. But I just keep saying it.

[Pete Holmes]

One of the. Okay, one of them is. It's a thing about rosary beads. Which is. Which is. I have to explain because I. I talk about how when I went to meet the Pope in. In June with a bunch of comedians, they gave me rosary beads that were blessed by the Pope. And I try to explain what rosary beads are. And I'm trying to figure out a comedic way to point out that, like, in. In Christianity, it's like. It's like these beads and there's. It's like a necklace. But like, you. You. You should. You can't wear it as a necklace. And it's like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a pocket necklace. That's an. You ever count something with an abacus? And. But it's an abacus, and they. It's to count prayers. But then you tied the abacus, and then you said, don't wear this. Keep it in your pocket.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, that's good. I like it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't wear it. It's a necklace. You can't. Here's a. Wear.

[Pete Holmes]

Here's a necklace that has prayers on it. Don't wear it. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And use it like an abacus. Like, to. There's something also funny about, like, to explain what a rosary is to you. I'd also have to explain what an abacus is to you. An abacus is like a calculator, and I have to explain what a calculator is to you.

[Pete Holmes]

That's funny, basically. That's a good bit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It takes a lot of steps down because it is an abacus that counts. Prayer that you tied off for a necklace that you can't wear. That's what. And if you're confused. So was I.

[Pete Holmes]

There you go. And then the other thing is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I point.

[Pete Holmes]

This is. This is like. Again, this is not a comedic idea as much as it's just a fully real idea, which is when I was a kid, first communion, my grandmother gave me, like, rosary beads.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, junior, Sorry, I put a pin in that, because I really think there's something to. Going like, if you don't know what a rosary is, it. It's like a string of beads, and each one you touch and you say a prayer and you use the beads to count how many prayers you've done. Like an abacus. Then you pause if you don't know what an abacus is. An abacus is like. And then you do it like a. Like a. You know, and then you go, if you don't know what a calculator is, it's like a app on your phone that used to just be a black. A black brick that you got at Radio Shack, you know, if you don't know what Radio Shack is, it's a place where they wanted your zip code. You could do that. That's. That's one of the formulas available. Yeah, it's available, but.

[Pete Holmes]

But anyway, when I was. My grandmother gave me rosary beads, and they Were like rosary beads, Junior. You know what I mean? You remember? That is like little ones. Yeah, they're like light. Light blue or light pink or whatever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying to cool it. Cool it up a little bit.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And they're not the hardwood ones.

[Pete Holmes]

Exactly. That's exactly it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I would. I would pray, you know, and I would. Would be 10. You know, each bead stood for a prayer, Right. So it's like 10 Hail Marys and then an Our Father and then a Glory be. I think. I think there's like 59 beads in total. If I'm not. If I'm not mistaken, I'm not sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it sounds around there.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I. Every night, and I say this on stage, I go. Every night, I would pray using these beads. And in my consciousness, it was me and got. And we were together. And at a certain point in my childhood, I. And I don't know when it was just me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good line.

[Pete Holmes]

And. And it's just. It's not a laugh line. It's just kind of there, and it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good one.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. That's my exact. That's my exact experience of my relationship with religion. It's like I. I didn't have a single inflection point, but I definitely. My consciousness as a child was 1000% different as. Than it is now. Hmm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You. You mean more magical, more.

[Pete Holmes]

More ethical and moral and real?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Well, what. What do you mean?

[Pete Holmes]

No, what I mean is that my literally, my consciousness was me and God, and we were buddy. It's like a. It's like a buddy comedy all the time with me and God. And then at a certain point, it was just, you know, Indiana Jones.

[Mike Birbiglia]

If I did that, it was me and Tracy Morgan in a cop car, and God keeps going. I made the world in seven days. I mean, I did all of this. Stop touching your dick.

[Pete Holmes]

I was. I'm sorry. I. Flashback to one time I opened for Tracy Morgan. And speaking. It was funny. I opened for him at Georgetown University once. It's like years after I graduated. And it was the dirtiest. It was the quintessentially most dirty, kind of like eating ass, you know, just every sexual specific, kind of like the audience just being like, you know, so funny because he came off stage and he goes, we gave them what they wanted. Like, he had no sense that there was a disconnect.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

He's like, that's what they wanted.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is.

[Pete Holmes]

I was like, okay, sure. Maybe. Maybe that's what they wanted. I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, what percentage of being a comedian is having a pretty good radar for when and when you didn't give the audience what they wanted? It might be a full 60%, I'm not sure. Like, interpreting laughs, interpreting silences, interpreting body movements, all that sort of stuff. I feel like that's the main skill. So that is a chilling, chilling story.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a chilling story.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That story isn't funny to me. That's chilling.

[Pete Holmes]

And then the other thing I'm just trying to develop is this thing I had the other day, which is when I was a kid, most of what I would see of my dad is he'd come home at 8 o'clock at night from work, and he would sit in the corner of the living room and read a war novel and scowl. And then people would be like, your dad's a great doctor. And I'd be like, all right. You know, Like, I don't know. I never. He's not my doctor. Like, if you said to me, like, your dad's great at reading war novels in the corner and scowling, I'd be like, yeah, I can vouch for that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is very funny. I have no notes on that. There's something also, maybe it's very Boston, I don't know. But other people telling you who your dad is is really funny. And it's true.

[Pete Holmes]

It is, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

They have to be like, your father's like the mayor of Somerville. And you're like, all right. Although I did see my dad sometimes being that gregarious and loved. But I know what you mean. I think I love that bit. It's very, very funny. I also, like. You know what I think of is, can you imagine if you or I worked like our fathers did? Like, if we allowed that and just went to work? My dad would go to work at, like, 5am not really. He'd take us to school, I guess, so 8:00am, and then he'd work until, like, you said, like, seven, eight. 8:00 at night. If I. Today is the first day off I've had in a while. Day off, meaning like a day where I can actually, like, focus and work because I've been solo parenting. If I get four hours of work in today, I'll be like, I'll give myself a Peabody Award. You know what I mean? Like, I'll be so pleased. Like a prestigious one.

[Pete Holmes]

A Pete a Peat Body Award.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Peat Biddy Peepity. I liked it. Puns are back, baby.

[Pete Holmes]

Coming at you with puns.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We need all the help we can.

[Pete Holmes]

Get, because I know you love them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't think I gave you a single. I gave you. I gave you how I would have done your jokes. I think, great.

[Pete Holmes]

Those are great. But look, I. That people should know this when they're listening to the podcast. This is a kind of a macro thing that people who are following the podcast should know, because sometimes people will. Will. You know, Jimmy Kimmel came on and he was like, you don't really work out jokes. I'm like, I am working out jokes. It takes a long time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, a lot of it is pushing around the sand and just going, oh, I. I'm going to drive to visit my dad in Rhode island today. It might come to me in the car, something that Pete said, except it'll come out in a different way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you're right. That's why I think it was Jon Stewart namedrop. He didn't say it to me, but he said, the writer's job isn't to write the joke for you. The writer's job is to say something to you that makes you think of the joke. 100%. That's 100%.

[Pete Holmes]

100%. And even, like, it's interesting because, like. Like what my director, Seth Barish, does for me, and it is. He's unbelievably good at it, is he repeats back to me what he hears in the show. So he'll go, so what I'm hearing is, you know, your dad's going through this thing, and then you went home to visit him, and then you felt this way, and then he did this and you did this. And he'll say in his own words what it is he heard me say. And when I hear that, I go, oh, my God, that's what you're getting. No, it's about sailing. You know what I mean? It's like, I completely relate. No, it's about coin collection, or it's about whatever it's about. It's about avarice. It's about being greedy or something. Whatever the thing is. And. And I go, it helps me to have a friend like Seth or a friend like you to repeat back what you're hearing. I go, oh, okay. That's super helpful. Do you have any bits in your new hour?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes, I do.

[Pete Holmes]

Premises. Half. Half ideas.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm gonna try and just remember it instead of reading it to you, but I'm doing this joke. I think this opening line is very, very funny. That's a weird way to start this, but I go, the Things my wife thinks you can recycle. I just think that is so funny, the optimism. I open up the dry trash, the recycling, and I just see, like, Styrofoam.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Nice try. Nice try. And I'll have to clean this up if I want to call it PG 13. But I go, you fucked the earth. You fucked the earth. You fucked it. You can't just make it better by putting it in the dry trash. You should put a mirror in the recycling so you can see yourself fucking the earth as you try to repurpose Styrofoam.

[Pete Holmes]

That's very funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think they're doing with it? Making crafts. You think they're making a fort? Nothing. I go, coffee cups. Nice try. They're plastic lined. What do you think they're gonna do with it? But then I go, but look, I get it. We've all tried to recycle a battery. We're all just throwing in D batteries, going, I'm not recycling, but I trust somewhere in the process, someone will know how to recycle this.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, let's kick this can down the road. Literally, let's kick this can down the road.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's very funny. And then I go, oh, that's good. And I go, I already have a job. You work at the recycling plant. You figure it out.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then I go, and my wife signed us up for, like, Blue Apron. It's not actually Blue Apron, but I picked Blue Apron because it's the most popular one. I go, she signed us up for Blue Apron. You can pretend to care about the earth, or you can have a home meal delivery service. You can't do both.

[Pete Holmes]

You can't do both.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can't have your soup shipped to you from North Dakota.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can't have. You can't open boxes filled with dry ice and take out a single sprig of cilantro in a little baggie like a crime scene investigation. People are coming over for dinner. There's so many boxes. They're like, did you just move in? And you're like, no, we just made dinner. Like, it can't. It can't. Like, why are you cosplaying? Like, you cook?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let me tell you a less baked premise. Cause I feel pretty good about that. I don't wear shorts. How can I expect my daughter to respect me if I'm wearing shorts? I find that so funny. If she can see these two pasty khaki legs covered in the lightest wisp of peach fuzz. And I'M like, go to bed. Like, shorts men. It's a very weird take, but I'm like, man's legs are so ugly. Two mozzarella like string cheese legs covered in cinnamon. Like, you look like a college freshman on the way to the showers. You know when you're at the airport and you see someone wearing a neck pillow on their neck as they walk around buying coffee?

[Pete Holmes]

That shorts.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's shorts.

[Pete Holmes]

That's shorts.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Shorts is just. You look like you're in your underwear. Grow up, grow up, Shorts. I'm sorry you're so hot. You have to let your fucking calves out. They look like fucking forearms.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm gonna stop here. I'm gonna co. Sign this take. I think this is a strong take.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My. I don't think I've ever seen my dad in shorts. And he has my respect. I don't care if it's a thousand degrees out. I'll never wear shorts. I'll wear a bathing suit.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I'm not going to wear shorts ever. Ever.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's a great day. I mean, I don't. I actually. I don't have anything to contribute to the bit other than to say, I see you, I hear you, I feel you. I think it's a. I think it's a great premise. I do think it should go somewhere else.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, once you've established that as an idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I would say it'll show.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, I would. If. If I'm talking about another topic, I would say that's the shorts of blank. That's the shorts of blank. Because I think you've established it as a vocabulary of, like. No, no, it's the thing that we shouldn't. We shouldn't see.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear that. Here's one that I think you can help me with. I have this joke, it's one of my favorite jokes about, like, sex leads to kids. That makes no sense. They don't have anything to do with each other. And then I go, can you imagine the first pregnancy? Like two cavemen had sex in a way that we wouldn't even recognize. Like, we're all trained to have sex from movies and pornography. They're just going at it like animals. And then like, like, then nine months later, after that romp under a crab apple tree, the woman's belly is huge. Like, how long did it take them to go? Do you think this is.

[Pete Holmes]

That's good?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you think this has. Do you think this is.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you think, like, wait, I'm Gonna throw. I'm just gonna throw spaghetti against the wall. Do you think this could be from.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Almost a year ago? And you're going, is it possible? Is it possible that it was less.

[Pete Holmes]

Than a year, though? It was less than a year.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We were naked and feeling good. Do you think this is that? And I go, you would guess witchcraft first. Like, that's a moral, reasonable guess.

[Pete Holmes]

Totally.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You'd be like, did you upset a powerful woman? And then you'd go, do you think I'm allergic to something? Like, did I eat something? Like, I'm swelling up. And then a baby comes out. And then I go, the baby, when the baby's first born, looks like the father. That's the way of genes telling the dad, this is your fault.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was the crabapple tree. It is because you had an orgasm.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you know one way to look.

[Pete Holmes]

At it, too is this look like. Like take. To take it somewhere else. It's like. Like when you order. It's like when you order a toaster oven, you don't even read the instructions. You throw the instructions out. Imagine if it was that. Except there's no instructions. It's just the human body.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Fully. No instructions.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. No instructions.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. It's kind of crazy to think about sex.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Kind of makes sense. It does make sense. That's where your parts are. These are where my parts are. They line up. It feels good. It's rewarding. But why on earth would you go, and now we have a baby.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah. No, no. The counterintuitiveness of it is shocking. I mean, I was gonna say, like, you look at ant, like the people. The cave people probably looked at animals and they were like, oh, okay, something there is similar to us. I mean, that's probably how they arrived at it. Right? I mean, this is non comedic, but that's probably.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, I. I appreciate non comedic because for sure, I was thinking they looked at other people, but that still means there had to be the first people that did it. But there were animals that they saw occasionally, like, shit out a baby and. And they'd be like, I wonder why.

[Pete Holmes]

Don't. Don't say that again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, Petey, I will say, mikey, I want to roast you all the time, but you look good. And I'm sorry I said you were going to die before me. You know, sometimes it's hard to hear the truth.

[Pete Holmes]

I appreciate it. I love seeing you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You look like a. You look like a guy in a footlocker trying on running shoes. And people who see you go, oh.

[Pete Holmes]

Like he's trying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. You're like a real. Bless his heart running shoe purchase for.

[Pete Holmes]

Working out for a cause. In the past, you've done Homeboy Industries.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I think we'll do that again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We sure can. That's my. My preference. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Petey, thank you so much for going over all of these jokes and talking about all this stuff, because I'm. I'm cramming to figure out all the last little tidbits and find. Eke out the last few lines.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. Steam clean for the.

[Pete Holmes]

For the show. All right, pal, I'll see you soon.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thank you, Mikey. Love you, too. Working It Out.

[Pete Holmes]

Cause it's not done.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're working it out.

[Pete Holmes]

Cause there's no. That's going to do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can see Pete Holmes at Largo in Los Angeles tomorrow, March 4, and next Monday, April 5. And then he's all over the place. Atlantic City, Austin, St. Louis. All of this on peteholmes.com for tour dates. You can follow him on Instagram etholmes. Check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always, to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter uda, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, it helps if you're new to the podcast and you enjoyed this episode. We got 160 more we've done. They're all free. No paywall, nothing. We've had Nathan Lane and Tig Notaro and Stephen Colbert. You can go on Apple podcasts and comment which is your favorite. It helps new listeners find a good way to start. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your priest in confession. See how it goes. Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I've been listening to Mike Birbiglia's Working it out podcast. I know it's not really a sin technically, but neither is swearing, right? I mean, let's be honest about which of these things are sins. Thanks for listening, everybody. We're working it out. See you next time.