← Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
164. Andrew Schulz: Give Him 10 Seconds
00:45:52
This week Andrew Schulz comes on the podcast and Mike and Andrew break apart why the two of them are unlikely work friends. They discuss Andrew having Donald Trump on his podcast, Andrew’s new deeply personal Netflix special, “Life,” and the politics of free speech in comedy. Plus, Andrew reveals the guest he regrets having on his podcast, “Flagrant.”
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- [00:01]
A
I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, but I think stories are our earliest form of digesting information.
- [00:05]
B
Agreed.
- [00:06]
A
It's like a. It's a floppy disk, but before we had floppy disk. It's writing before writing.
- [00:11]
B
Yeah.
- [00:11]
A
Giving us little. Like, giving us little anecdotes or facts. They'll just leave us immediately.
- [00:17]
B
Yeah.
- [00:17]
A
But I think our brains are built to remember story. And I also think that when somebody walks in a room and they go, hey, guys, this crazy thing, we give him 10 seconds.
- [00:30]
B
Right? So smart. That is the voice of the great Andrew Schulz. There have been a few guests on this podcast over the years that people, probably listeners of the show, did not expect me to have even known them. And Andrew's definitely that. He, you know, he does roast comedy. He does really provocative comedy. He interviewed Donald Trump. There's a lot of things that are very different about us, but we've known each other for many years. I think he's very funny. I think he's a really nice guy. And we have a great chat today, and I think you're really going to enjoy it. Thanks to everyone who came out to my show, the Good Life at the Beacon Theater in New York City. You can see it on my Instagram. But I handed out cupcakes to the crowd. 2000 cupcakes in the street after the final show from the Sugar Sweet Sunshine Bakery in Manhattan. So thanks for those. I hope everybody enjoyed it as much as I did. There will be news about that soon. This is a great chat that I have with Andrew. It gets a little more political than the typical episodes do here, but he did interview Donald Trump before the election, and I felt like it was really worth talking about that. And we just talk about telling. You know, we talk a lot about telling personal stories on stage. We talk about producing things for yourself. That's one of the things I really admire about Andrew is over the years, he's produced a lot of his own work for very low budgets, and it's really, really impressive. We talk about fertility issues and the personal stuff that he talks about in his special life, which is on Netflix. And we talk about Andrew opening up about that on stage. So enjoy my chat with the great Andrew Schulz. Cause I watch the documentary you did about comedy clubs working, like, five comedy clubs in a night in New York City. Oh, the special.441.
- [02:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:45]
B
Which is great.
- [02:46]
A
Thank you. Thank you.
- [02:47]
B
And it's like, you know what I love about that? It is it brings people into A world. It's on YouTube if people want to watch. Brings people into the world of where you and I know each other from New York comedy clubs, mostly the comedy seller of how much comedy comedians do in a night. Because if you're an audience member, you're just going. And you see Greer Barnes and Andrew Schultz and Mike Birbiglia. Meanwhile, the whole bunch of us are going, like, club to club to club, club. And it's like. It's a grind.
- [03:19]
A
Well, now it's easy because the seller has 14 different comedy.
- [03:23]
B
Yeah, I know.
- [03:24]
A
But probably when. Definitely when you were doing the rounds in the city.
- [03:28]
B
Yeah.
- [03:28]
A
And then when I was doing them, we're going from, like, the Upper east to downtown. Back in a cab. Back to the Upper East.
- [03:36]
B
Yeah.
- [03:37]
A
Across the standup. New York.
- [03:38]
B
What did you. From filming that?
- [03:40]
A
We have it the most tough, actually.
- [03:42]
B
I do.
- [03:42]
A
We do.
- [03:43]
B
How come?
- [03:44]
A
Which is comedians. Like, I know there's a lot of other people out there. Their jobs definitely.
- [03:48]
B
Really don't.
- [03:48]
A
Taking fucking Ubers around New York City to talk for 15 minutes, man. Nobody understands. It's a challenge.
- [03:55]
B
Nobody. I know. And I don't think it's. It's. It's hard. But I do think that the documentary sort of opens out a world that people wouldn't realize is behind the scenes.
- [04:08]
A
Sure. Yeah. I mean, realistically, like, the reason I did it that way is because I just didn't have a place I could do an hour of comedy.
- [04:16]
B
Yeah.
- [04:16]
A
So I broke my hour into, like, five different rooms, and I just filmed all five.
- [04:21]
B
That's crazy.
- [04:22]
A
Yeah. So I was like. And then I was like, oh, this will kind of be cool.
- [04:26]
B
Yeah. Somewhere so funny. So this is like, 2018.
- [04:29]
A
This is way back in the day. Yeah.
- [04:31]
B
That wasn't that long ago.
- [04:33]
A
Yeah. Time.
- [04:34]
B
This is way back. Flies from way back when people wouldn't have met people, by the way. People wouldn't imagine we would be friendly or friends. I don't even know what we are. Are we friends? Are we friendly? Are we work friends? Think of comedians as work friends.
- [04:49]
A
Yeah, we're like, work friends. I feel like. I feel like we're work friends, but I feel like we. We're almost, like, able to connect a little bit more since there doesn't seem to be, like, any kind of, like, competitiveness or rivalry.
- [05:04]
B
That's interesting, do you think? Because there was before, like.
- [05:09]
A
No. I think sometimes, like, guys that are in, like, similar spaces, they're.
- [05:12]
B
Right.
- [05:12]
A
Like, at least in our field, people are, like, really competitive. And also a lot of times really insecure. And that sometimes makes relationships a little trickier, where I feel like you and I have never. I never felt, like, any negative energy towards you. You know what I mean?
- [05:27]
B
Like, yeah, we have. We have.
- [05:29]
A
Like, what are we competing over?
- [05:33]
B
No, but people. I think people would not imagine us being coworkers.
- [05:38]
A
Why? Well, because.
- [05:39]
B
Well, well, you know why.
- [05:41]
A
Well, no, tell me.
- [05:41]
B
Comedy is not even remotely similar to one another's. I would say look or sound like one another in any way, shape, or form.
- [05:51]
A
I think that you're speaking more on, like, a political expectation of me versus a political expectation of you.
- [05:56]
B
Maybe that's part of it. Our politics are probably very different.
- [05:59]
A
Maybe. I don't know. I think. I think our politics might be different. Based on your assumption of my politics? No, this is based on what I put out in the world, so it's a completely fair assumption. Like the.
- [06:12]
B
No, I thought you're. It's funny. I was listening to you on Dax.
- [06:15]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [06:16]
B
I thought you had astute political observations that I very much agree with. Like, for example, you were like, AOC is one of the best things Democrats have going for us, basically, because, you know, AOC and Bernie are basically saying, like, let's get money distributed and get money to the people and get jobs back for working people. I was like, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
- [06:37]
A
So in that way, help.
- [06:38]
B
What's that?
- [06:39]
A
I think she wants to help.
- [06:40]
B
She wants to help.
- [06:41]
A
I think at her core.
- [06:42]
B
That's right.
- [06:42]
A
And I think Bernie at his core wants to help. And I think it's. It's really hard. Like, you got to be really tribal to see someone who wants to help other people and then hate them. Now, I think some of her rhetoric is inflammatory. Like, she. She gets a little flagrant. You know what I mean? Like, she actually. She's on my podcast.
- [07:00]
B
Are you plugging your own podcast? I saw her say she likes you.
- [07:04]
A
Actually, she had great taste, but did you see that? I did not see it. I figured you turn that up. No, I haven't, but I want to talk to her, actually, because, like, she. She did something that I thought was, like, really interesting, which is. And I don't want to be, like, too political, obviously, because people throw it out, but, like, I thought. I think her. Her area. I think she. Both. Her area voted for her and Trump.
- [07:25]
B
I know. I know all about this, but I.
- [07:28]
A
Think that's, like, a really important thing to understand.
- [07:30]
B
It is.
- [07:31]
A
That means her area isn't polarized politically. That means her area is going who's going to help us?
- [07:37]
B
Yeah. So despite our person who's.
- [07:39]
A
Yeah, it's. And I thought that was, like, one of the coolest things. Like, it made me proud to be a New Yorker. I was like, wow, we're making decisions, right or wrong, we see what happens.
- [07:48]
B
Yeah.
- [07:48]
A
But based on the people that are communicating, they're going to help us.
- [07:51]
B
Yeah.
- [07:52]
A
Regardless of what party they're in.
- [07:54]
B
That's interesting. I mean, and. And of course, you famously interviewed Trump. And then my phone lit up. Because you know this guy. Yeah. Because you interviewed Trump, I had to be like, yes. And I like him and he's a.
- [08:10]
A
Good guy, and thank you for defending me, but you don't have to.
- [08:14]
B
I'm. But the only thing that I would criticize about it is just, like. It's just a lot of softballs. And I saw you talk about it and you were saying, well, I brought up ivf. I brought up this. I brought up this. But I think it's a little naive, willfully naive, to think that that was people's takeaway.
- [08:31]
A
I think that's a really good criticism. Yeah, I think it's a really fair criticism. I think what I noticed is the second the episode came out, like, the left was cheering me on like crazy. And they were like, finally somebody did it. Finally somebody made fun of him and laughed in his face and all stuff. And when I saw that, I was like, I got to go watch this.
- [08:51]
B
Like, yeah.
- [08:52]
A
Because I didn't think that was going to be takeaway. And then the right was going, finally somebody humanizes them. So, like, both sides are cheering.
- [08:59]
B
Right.
- [09:00]
A
This interview.
- [09:01]
B
Right.
- [09:01]
A
And then I was like, oh, shit, did we do it? Did we, like, humanize somebody but at the same time laugh at the absurdity?
- [09:10]
B
Right.
- [09:10]
A
Did we actually do, like, a great interview? Like.
- [09:14]
B
Right.
- [09:14]
A
Both sides thought, appease their, like, emotional reactivity and, I mean, never gonna make everybody happy. But that was the. I guess I don't wanna say that was the goal to appease both sides, but, like, I wanted to understand him as a human being, and I didn't want it to be like a. I thought, like, the only way to satisfy the left would be if it was like, a gotcha interview.
- [09:36]
B
Yeah.
- [09:36]
A
Because I don't think that. I think not everybody, but I don't think there's people there that, like, I imagine they see Trump in the same way that, like, during the civil rights movement, somebody might have seen, you know, Republicans that, like, really weren't. Didn't seem concerned with, like, black rights. So I feel like there's no way in winning those folks without, like, speaking about him or towards him as if he's, like, this super villain.
- [09:58]
B
Right.
- [09:59]
A
So, like, even if it wasn't, even if there were softballs, as you said, like, even if they were hardballs, it wouldn't be enough. Unless I literally tried to demolish him. That would be the only way.
- [10:12]
B
Right.
- [10:13]
A
Because I think they see him in the same way that people see, you know, nefarious characters throughout history.
- [10:18]
B
But you didn't even come at him the way you came at Tom Brady.
- [10:22]
A
What did I say? But to Tom Brady. Oh, the.
- [10:24]
B
At the roast.
- [10:25]
A
At the roast. Yeah. With the roast jokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:28]
B
Because that was a roast.
- [10:29]
A
Like, you were sitting down with.
- [10:30]
B
You're a roast comedian.
- [10:32]
A
Yes, but I wasn't doing a roast of the president. Is that the expectation that was mine?
- [10:37]
B
I don't know.
- [10:38]
A
Right. No, I feel like. I feel like I approached him the same way I approached any guest that comes on. Like, when Cuban came on, you know, I was just curious about his ideas. I don't like to do gotcha interviews, no matter who it is.
- [10:49]
B
Right.
- [10:49]
A
Like, when we had.
- [10:50]
B
I don't either.
- [10:51]
A
But, like, when we had, like, Hasan Piker, you know, it wasn't, hey, we're going to try to dig up everything horrible you've said and, like, get you. It was like, hey, you might have a different, you know, philosophy on how the world should be. And, like, let's try to understand it.
- [11:02]
B
The only one. The only one. I feel like Trump is fair game. He's a presidential candidate. He can be on entertainment shows. The only one that you had that kind of made me question your ethics in booking is Alex Jones.
- [11:17]
A
That's completely reasonable.
- [11:19]
B
How do you feel about it, especially being a dad now?
- [11:22]
A
Yeah.
- [11:24]
B
Because we all know what he did.
- [11:25]
A
Yeah. What he did was awful.
- [11:27]
B
What he did was. Is. Is the most heinous. And if you're a parent, it's like a next level of heinous.
- [11:32]
A
Yeah. It's brutal. You can't even imagine. Yeah, I think that. Yeah, it's a tricky thing. It's something that I've had to, like. I don't have, like, a good, like, answer for it, you know, it was. Yeah. I just. I wish I had, like, a really good answer for it. I think that. I think you're right. And it was something I was thinking about in the time, and I was like, no, this figure is interesting. There's all this other stuff popping up that seems so, like, unbelievable, you know, all this, like, Epstein stuff, all this conspiracy stuff. And I think I got, like, a little caught up in all this conspiracy stuff, and I'm like, what the fuck is really going on? Going on? I think there's this part of me that was like, is this guy privy to what's really going on? And I think that that allowed me to kind of not, like, be blind to it. I still thought it was heinous. There was a point in the pod where he, like, tried to justify it, and I made sure that he wasn't allowed to justify it. Yeah, but, like. But yeah, it's. Would I do it now, having a kid? No. No.
- [12:35]
B
Yeah.
- [12:35]
A
I think it's a really reasonable criticism, and ultimately, it's one of those things that you just got to carry for the rest of your career.
- [12:41]
B
Right.
- [12:42]
A
You know?
- [12:43]
B
Yeah. It's interesting.
- [12:44]
A
What is your feeling on it? Maybe you can help me understand mine better.
- [12:48]
B
To me, it's like, I like discussion, and I. You know, I like podcasts that mix it up for me. It's like, he's one of those people, you just go, no, what you did is so definitively evil. It's just hard for me to. It's hard for me to. To come back from that.
- [13:09]
A
So, again, this is, like, the worst form. What I'm about to do. I've learned through, like, therapy with my wife is, like, the worst thing to do.
- [13:16]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [13:16]
A
But unfortunately, like, the skills we develop as comedians are the worst things for communicating with our spouses, which is, like, very funny. It's all. Being comedian is like finding rationalizations for things. You should rationalize examples and then justifying behavior, which is the last thing you do. Yeah, but, like, you went and saw the Pope.
- [13:36]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [13:38]
A
Now, when. When in terms of, like, acts of violence to children.
- [13:42]
B
Yeah, no, I. And I talk about this in my show, so I talk about this in my show. I. I had a lot of qualms about it.
- [13:49]
A
Yeah. But not enough to not do it.
- [13:51]
B
Right. I. You know, what I say in the show is he's. He's. He's a. He. The pope. Pope Francis is. Is good, but only compared to other popes. Like, if you met him at a party, you'd be like, this fucking guy. You know?
- [14:03]
A
And obviously, what we're referring to is the idea of, like, knowing that there were, like, pedophile.
- [14:07]
B
Yeah. Heinous. The most heinous institutional crimes in the last.
- [14:13]
A
Moving them around and then, like, 30 years, essentially protecting the institution because.
- [14:16]
B
Yeah, it's horrible.
- [14:17]
A
And yet there were these Amazing things that you probably want to connect with the Pope and get these, like, cool experiences, etc. And, like, maybe he's not the guy who's the one responsible for it, you know? So I think there's a way you justified it, but I guess what I'm saying is that, like, you know, like, I had Trump on. Like, you've. You've met Obama.
- [14:37]
B
True.
- [14:38]
A
Like, if you ask people, you know, getting married in Yemen if Obama's, like, a good guy, they might be like, well, I can't answer that because I'm dead.
- [14:47]
B
Right, Right. So they wouldn't be able to answer.
- [14:50]
A
That in terms of, like, the people who have done. I think Alex Jones has become, like, this example of, like, the worst person.
- [14:57]
B
Right.
- [14:57]
A
That's ever lived because of this horrendous thing that he. That, like, hurt these people's Sandy Hook parents. Yeah.
- [15:03]
B
Where he. He portrayed them as.
- [15:05]
A
As liars.
- [15:06]
B
Actors.
- [15:06]
A
No, no. He portrayed the parents as liars, as liars, and the kids that were killed as actors.
- [15:11]
B
Was disgusting.
- [15:12]
A
It's horrible.
- [15:12]
B
Yeah.
- [15:13]
A
He himself did not protect any pedophiles. He did not fuck any kids and, like, protect them, and he didn't, like, murder. So far that we know, you know, hundreds of thousands of people are not responsible for an army murdering hundreds of thousand people. So I think the way I justified it is going, like, if people can chum it up with, like, presidents who are literally going, yeah, let's murder hundreds of thousands of people for Boeing or Raytheon or whatever company is gonna get super rich. And not really to, like, protect the American people or an institution. And I'm not trying to, like, bag on Catholics. I actually like. My family's Catholic. I have a lot of protection, but.
- [15:48]
B
And a huge amount of ticket buyers are.
- [15:51]
A
God, I love them. They have a lot of kids. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, there isn't. Sometimes there's this, like, moral equivalency thing where it's just, like, it's very easy for us to just be like, the only bad people exist are the ones that are over there.
- [16:04]
B
Oh, 100% sure.
- [16:05]
A
How could you talk to Trump? How can you talk to Alex Jones? And it's just like. But I'll hang out with these guys who are responsible for, like, way more murder and rape than the other ones. We never look at our own and go, are they capable of doing horrible things? I'm a big Obama guy. Love Obama.
- [16:22]
B
I think there's an irony in this moment right now. Politically And I don't do political comedy. So this, you know, this show's working it out, so. But most of us won't end up in my show. But it is something that confounds me is like, I feel like you're part of a movement in the last 10 years by comedians to be like, hey, let us say whatever we want.
- [16:43]
A
Sure.
- [16:44]
B
It's a kind of a free speech movement. And I've been. I generally, I feel like that's a good impulse. I think saying more than less leads to more honest conversations, which I think leads to better outcomes.
- [16:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [17:01]
B
I think that the. The thing recently with the deporting protesters has really made me second guess whether or not this administration was ever about free speech. Do you feel on edge about any of that stuff right now? Like, I feel like. I feel like my tribe, which I don't always agree with, I think is very on edge about Trump right now, because we feel like. It feels like, hey, it's free speech.
- [17:34]
A
But our free speech is not allowed.
- [17:37]
B
Yeah, exactly. It's our free speech. Not everyone's free speech.
- [17:40]
A
This is the thing that, like.
- [17:42]
B
Do you feel on edge about that, like, at all? No, you don't.
- [17:45]
A
But this is the thing that, like, my concern is that the second the right got power. The right. And we're gonna use these, like, loose terms. Sure. I'm not talking about, like, 80% of the people in the middle. I'm talking about, like, the extremes. Right, sure. So is that they were gonna commit the exact same mistakes that they were fighting against for the last four, eight years.
- [18:04]
B
Right.
- [18:05]
A
And that would be restricting the speech of people that disagree with them.
- [18:09]
B
Yeah.
- [18:09]
A
It's very easy to be in the situation where you're going, like, hey, let me say things, and I'm being censored, and I'm not gonna. The second you're in power, you are the one that censors.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah.
- [18:19]
A
So you have to work diligently at allowing people to say whatever they wanna say.
- [18:23]
B
Yeah.
- [18:24]
A
So, like, I think the biggest mistake that people make, like, about comedy is, like, this idea that people aren't allowed to be offended or aren't allowed to react however they want. Like, if I say joke, like, and it. And it hurts you because of something you experience in your life, you're allowed to feel 100. You're allowed to hate me. You're. You're allowed to have opinions on me that are unfounded based on a headline you saw.
- [18:46]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [18:47]
A
I decided to put something out that somebody headlined that way.
- [18:51]
B
That's True.
- [18:51]
A
Like, I have to accept that that's just part of the reality.
- [18:54]
B
Right.
- [18:55]
A
Like, if there's anything that I do that offends you, I'm never gonna do it to you again because I don't want to, like, hurt your feelings. Like, you're a nice person. But don't restrict my ability to go tell that joke somewhere else.
- [19:05]
B
Sure.
- [19:06]
A
And the audience will ultimately tell me if the joke is good or bad. And if it's bad, please believe I'm not confident enough to keep doing it.
- [19:13]
B
Yeah.
- [19:14]
A
I'm insecure, too. I want the audience to enjoy it.
- [19:16]
B
Yeah.
- [19:16]
A
So I gotta keep tweaking and whittling it and.
- [19:19]
B
Yeah.
- [19:19]
A
And making it better.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah. It's interesting. Like, I think that. I think being a touring comedian gives you a certain perspective of the country that is very different from people who just live in New York City and Los Angeles. I've had this, I've said this for years on this podcast. But it's like when people will often say to me in New York, they'll go, oh, you're going to Ohio this weekend. What's that going to be like? I'm like, it's going to be great.
- [19:46]
A
Yeah.
- [19:47]
B
People in Ohio are great. What are you talking about?
- [19:50]
A
I do feel we need to bring back some coastal elitism, though. I do. I do feel like it's at an all time low and I don't like it. The country is better when. When we are arrogant.
- [20:02]
B
I have a joke about it which is people call me a coastal elite just because I live on a coast and I'm better than other people.
- [20:06]
A
That's great.
- [20:07]
B
And I want people to know that. I also live part of the year in Aspen.
- [20:11]
A
That's great.
- [20:26]
B
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- [21:38]
A
Yeah. Like, where did we.
- [21:39]
B
Do you remember where we first met?
- [21:41]
A
I think it was just at the Cellar having talks. Like, you and Gnome would talk about a lot of stuff politically, and then like you and I would chop it up and then I hit you up for advice about the not trying to plug special, but just because the special is like a story arc. Like, I asked you just for advice about storytelling and was it helpful? Very helpful, yeah. And you were very generous.
- [22:00]
B
Do you remember any of it?
- [22:02]
A
Yeah, I thought like specific things that you're saying is like, like one. You were like. Cause I was like, I'm, you know, reading all these books and stuff like that. And you're like, yeah, I think that's. That's actually good. And then you were like. You said this thing, which I've. Which I've. I've heard other people also say, not trying to take away credit from you, but saying that it's like, I think the top level storytellers get it. It's like, don't just go. And then.
- [22:25]
B
Right, right.
- [22:25]
A
You're like, make sure everything that happens forces another thing to happen.
- [22:29]
B
So then. Instead of. And then. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:32]
A
I think that's how you were.
- [22:32]
B
We talk about that on this podcast all the time. Yeah.
- [22:34]
A
And I was like, I really, I was, I was really grateful because it's very, I guess easy when you're first starting is just to go, and then this happened. And then this happened. It's just boring.
- [22:45]
B
It's even good advice, by the way, for people who aren't professional storytellers. Anybody think of anything in terms of. So then. So then. So then. So then. Yeah, yeah, it's much more interesting.
- [22:53]
A
It's so much. And, and anyway, I was very grateful that you. You shared that you had some other things you were saying, but I thought that was like the most potent one for me. It's like, what does this. Cause.
- [23:04]
B
Yes.
- [23:05]
A
What is this? Does this make this next thing necessary?
- [23:09]
B
Yeah, and it works really well in the special. I found myself hooked in and I had seen pieces of it at the Cellar and it was hilarious in the 15 minute increments. But like, it really does have a cliffhanger element of it. Even though I know the end. You. I know the end.
- [23:30]
A
So this Is it's I tell the end in the beginning.
- [23:32]
B
Yeah.
- [23:33]
A
And.
- [23:34]
B
But I know you have a daughter. I know it worked out. And yet when you're struggling with fertility and you're struggling with medical issues with your wife, I'm worried.
- [23:44]
A
Yeah.
- [23:45]
B
It's amazing to watch that and have it work.
- [23:48]
A
I credit you for this all the time. Like just, just really making sure that each thing forces the next thing.
- [23:56]
B
Yeah.
- [23:56]
A
And I think that like I'm not telling you anything that you don't know. But I think stories are our earliest form of digesting information.
- [24:04]
B
Agreed.
- [24:06]
A
It's a floppy disk, but before we had floppy disk. It's writing before writing.
- [24:10]
B
Yeah.
- [24:12]
A
Giving us little anecdotes or facts that'll just leave us immediately. But I think our brains are built to remember story. And I also think that when somebody walks in a room and they go, hey guys, this crazy thing, we give them 10 seconds.
- [24:29]
B
Right. So smart.
- [24:30]
A
But it's true.
- [24:31]
B
Like it's a hundred percent shuts down. Like, not only that, your, your special is a super smart thing. You open on a joke from the middle of the special. Then you go credit sequence, then you go special.
- [24:43]
A
Yeah.
- [24:43]
B
Same reason that you're saying 10 seconds. First 10 seconds you got to get them with a joke.
- [24:47]
A
Yeah. I was actually concerned putting it out. Like it took me. I had a difficult task. I wanted to, I. I wanted to do kind of like a. I don't want to call one man show. But I wanted to tell a story.
- [25:02]
B
Yeah.
- [25:04]
A
But I didn't want people to know that they were being told a story.
- [25:07]
B
Yeah.
- [25:09]
A
So I wanted them to come and think it was the same. Like, hey, these are just bits and hard hitting. Stand up. And then like you kind of get. You're like wait, what is going on? And then the end. And then on tour I was able to kind of get it there. And I remember as we were editing the special, I was like, fuck. Should I just start right on the beginning of the story?
- [25:27]
B
Yeah.
- [25:28]
A
And I'm glad that I didn't. I'm glad that it kind of subverts it because I think that the reaction people had was. And I think you can only get to do this once because if I do it again, they'll be like, well, we know you are going to tell a story, you know, which I'm sure you have to go through. Exactly. Right. It's like the first time you do it, they're like, what the.
- [25:44]
B
When's going to turn one of the jokes going to turn into a really serious vignette.
- [25:50]
A
Right. But that's probably something that. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe your storytelling has gotten so much better.
- [25:59]
B
It has to get better. Yes.
- [26:00]
A
But the delta is probably smaller from. From special to special. But from the first one.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah.
- [26:07]
A
Like, the first one, you're going from zero to where it was.
- [26:10]
B
No, absolutely. And I got choked up when you showed the video of your wife and daughter. It's very emotional.
- [26:18]
A
Yeah.
- [26:19]
B
I get. I'm choked up now even thinking about.
- [26:22]
A
Oh, thank you.
- [26:24]
B
It's very moving, and it's very. People should watch it. It's on Netflix. It's very moving, and it's very vulnerable. And I think, significantly, it's vulnerable from a person who people would not expect to be vulnerable. And I think that that's significant.
- [26:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I think that, like, I'll be honest. I think me being the problem with getting pregnant made it a lot easier to talk about.
- [26:51]
B
Yeah.
- [26:52]
A
I don't think I'd ever be able to do it if it was my wife's issue with eggs or anything like that.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah, of course. That makes perfect sense.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah. But. But, yeah, to me, it was, like, exciting. I know. I just thought my life was boring, to be honest with you. I thought my opinions were way more interesting than my life.
- [27:07]
B
Right.
- [27:07]
A
Like, I was like, okay, I got, you know, fun takes on this, and. You know what I mean? Like, I.
- [27:13]
B
Well, you said this thing to me at one point. We were at the seller where you were like, I'm starting to realize that, like, take culture is a little boring compared to your. Our own personal stories.
- [27:25]
A
100%. And then the. The most elite version of it is when, like, society calls for that story, like, whatever that story is about.
- [27:36]
B
Say more about that.
- [27:37]
A
Like, not elite version of it. Like, doesn't make the art better, but it makes it, like, more potentially successful. So, like, social utility.
- [27:45]
B
Yeah.
- [27:46]
A
When social utility meets art, that's when things are, like, almost inescapable.
- [27:49]
B
Yeah.
- [27:50]
A
And. But one of the cool things about art is, like, sometimes there's no social utility, but that's what you want to create.
- [27:58]
B
That's funny. You're. Your special is called Life, and it was filmed at the Beacon. My special is called the Good Life, and it was filmed at the Beacon.
- [28:05]
A
It's just doing a knockoff of Verbiglia. I just want to let you guys know. It's just.
- [28:10]
B
It's a shittier story than Verbigli would tell.
- [28:13]
A
Okay. It's at the same venue. Just watch his. And it's something like that with more fucks no, but.
- [28:18]
B
But I. My. My director, Seth, and I would talk every night before I perform the show, which is about how tonight, this show may not be for everybody. It's for who needs it tonight.
- [28:32]
A
Yeah.
- [28:32]
B
Because it's a very challenging story about my dad having a stroke and kind of going through that. And it's like the. The responses that people come up to me with, and I'm sure they do with you in life, to me, are way more powerful than any. That was hilarious. Or any I've never laughed so hard thing.
- [28:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [28:54]
B
Like, what's the most extreme experience you've had with people coming up to you about life?
- [28:59]
A
I mean, to me, I get, like, really emotional reading the stories, so I just screenshot all these, like, stories. So all these people who are going through infertility. I don't even like using that word.
- [29:08]
B
Yeah.
- [29:09]
A
They're going through fertility issues. No, it's negative.
- [29:13]
B
No, you're very. You're a snowflake.
- [29:15]
A
I am sensitive.
- [29:16]
B
Yeah.
- [29:17]
A
Like. But I'm also sensitive in terms of, like, positivity.
- [29:20]
B
So you're sensitive about your things. Yeah.
- [29:22]
A
Oh, my things.
- [29:23]
B
Yes.
- [29:23]
A
Okay. It's about me, but, like. Like, I would rather call it fertility journey, not infertility. Like.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah.
- [29:32]
A
I just feel like, God, you make.
- [29:34]
B
Me learn all these words.
- [29:35]
A
I know. That's crazy.
- [29:37]
B
I can't keep up.
- [29:38]
A
This is what it's like being a lib dude.
- [29:39]
B
Exactly.
- [29:41]
A
So it's like, I just. I just think it's better that people have that in their heads.
- [29:45]
B
It's funny because I do think it's a very. It is. You're opening up to the audience, and you are someone who has this accent, which God knows what the fuck this accent is. You get the mustache. I don't know what that means, but, like, you're a guy.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah.
- [30:04]
B
You're very much a guy. And you're telling this very vulnerable story, and you're an example to me of someone who's been a comic and a really good comic for a long time.
- [30:15]
A
Thanks.
- [30:15]
B
And you're having a moment, and part of it is that you're opening up to the audience, and part of it is that your politics seem to align with a huge swath of people in the country.
- [30:26]
A
Yeah. It's interesting. It's like the political thing. It's. It immediately creates a good guy, bad guy narrative, no matter what.
- [30:35]
B
Yeah.
- [30:36]
A
And the good guy isn't earned.
- [30:39]
B
Yeah, agreed.
- [30:40]
A
Right.
- [30:41]
B
I think that's true.
- [30:42]
A
It's not earned. Like, if you like me because of something I say Politically, you don't like me. You like you.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:48]
A
And I'm just saying it in a way that makes you feel good about yourself.
- [30:52]
B
That's right.
- [30:53]
A
And the bad guy is if I say something that goes against something you feel, you don't actually dislike me.
- [30:59]
B
Yeah.
- [31:00]
A
I'm just emblematic of any guy that you hate that holds these certain opinions. Right. So to me, one of the beautiful things about Stand up is that it's deserved, it's earned when it's done. Well, agreed. That's why I hate the pandering. Like, I would rather say a joke that I know that you're gonna hate, but do it so well that you end up laughing.
- [31:21]
B
Yeah.
- [31:22]
A
Cause it feels earned or deserved.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah.
- [31:23]
A
Like, I eye roll anytime. Like, I'm in New York and there's like. Or I eye roll anytime I'm in Texas, and it's just some, like, fucking free speech or whatever. And it's just like, you're just saying the thing. Like, it's just. You're just saying the thing that's gonna get people to agree.
- [31:37]
B
Right, right.
- [31:38]
A
And it's same thing in New York. You like liberal take. And everybody there is just like, we're supposed to laugh at this.
- [31:44]
B
Right.
- [31:44]
A
You know, so the knowing thing about politics versus, like, being personal is when you do a personal joke.
- [31:53]
B
Yeah.
- [31:54]
A
And granted, I understand. Like, people will relate to it because they've gone through it and they might see me and their experiences.
- [32:00]
B
Yeah.
- [32:00]
A
But at least they're seeing a version that we both connect on. And I don't think there's many people that are watching me and going, I didn't go through ivf. He's a villain.
- [32:11]
B
No, no, absolutely. Whereas that's part of the reason why I perform so many shows internationally is that I try to understand what's human about what I'm saying. Yeah. So when I go to England or Australia, it's like, oh, okay, what's the part that defies culture? And it's just, what do we all have in common?
- [32:29]
A
Yeah.
- [32:30]
B
You do tons of international shows.
- [32:32]
A
Yeah. No, honestly, my international stuff is literally just from doing jokes about different cultures.
- [32:38]
B
Right.
- [32:38]
A
And that's just me being, like, a curious guy.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:43]
A
Like, I. I just want to know. I just want to know about you. And I think I just get that from my dad. Like, anybody my dad spoke to is, like, just the most curious. When he's talking to you, you're the most interesting person he's ever spoken to.
- [32:55]
B
Yeah.
- [32:55]
A
If you're a guy that's holding glasses because you're like the busboy at the restaurant. He's like, how can you hold all those classes?
- [33:02]
B
This is the thing. This is the thing that drives me nuts about the election.
- [33:06]
A
Yeah.
- [33:07]
B
Is people went nuts about Rogan and I. Every degree of separation I had with the Harris campaign, I begged them, please get her to go on Rogan. Because what's gonna happen is he is just a curious person, and he'll just ask questions, and she'll look great.
- [33:29]
A
This is the.
- [33:30]
B
She wouldn't go on. And she wouldn't go on yours. And I think it's a huge mistake.
- [33:36]
A
Well, this is the. To what we were saying earlier, like, this is sometimes the burden of the party of progress is like, the concern of ostracizing one of your groups. And that is much easier to do when you are the one that's trying to create more opportunity for more marginalized groups. I don't think Trump has to care as much. Cause he's like, ah, if I piss off the. The cues, I'll be all right.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah.
- [34:05]
A
Whereas, like, I think the Dems are going like, ugh. I could say that thing about pronouns, and that might be turned a certain way. Like, I thought one of the most relatable moments for Kamala is when she was like, somebody breaks into my house, she's getting shot. Somebody breaks in my house, he's getting shot. Do you remember that? I think she was.
- [34:22]
B
Yeah, I do remember that.
- [34:23]
A
And, like, she was kind of criticized for that.
- [34:26]
B
And I didn't. Yeah, I didn't follow that side of it.
- [34:28]
A
But, like, I was like, whoa, that's a real cool moment. That's a relatable moment. I grew up in New York City. Going to have a fucking gun. Nobody has a gun in this city. But this feeling of somebody intruding in your space and you have, like, a child there, like, you do anything to protect them. I hit up Charlamagne immediately because, you know, Charlamagne was involved with Yo. More. More. That's it. And he's like, this is who she really is.
- [34:52]
B
It's interesting. Like, the. I think it was Jon Favreau from Positive America said this thing to Hassan Minaj on his podcast. And I think this is completely true. Is the reason why podcasts are so influential is because the people listening know they talk for, like, one to three hours. This is kind of what they're like. This is a kind of a peek behind the curtain. Whereas Jon Favreau pointed out, if I go on MSNBC or cnn, it's a Five minute segment. I know they're going to ask these three questions. I kind of know what my three answers are going to be.
- [35:27]
A
Yeah.
- [35:28]
B
And that's it. And the Americans are kind of done with that.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah. It's one of the things I learned from this. And, and this is like, just from doing, like, press around the specials. And I was going on all these different people's podcasts. After the last special, I kind of just stopped doing pots. And I was like. And I was like, you know what? I want people to kind of understand my curiosity and what I'm into and, like, get a sense of me. So I'm going to bring all these different people to my podcast.
- [35:56]
B
Yeah.
- [35:56]
A
And I realized that I'm just communicating to the people who already know me who I am.
- [36:02]
B
Yeah.
- [36:03]
A
They don't need like. And I also am bringing them there just because I'm curious. But I thought a byproduct of that curiosity would be, like, public sentiment about me would be more understood.
- [36:12]
B
Right.
- [36:13]
A
No. People only know what they consume of you.
- [36:16]
B
Right, Right.
- [36:16]
A
And they're not gonna consume every one of your episodes. So when I was doing these convos and, like, having great convos like this where, like, maybe we disagree on some things, but there's. I have a lot of respect for you, so, like, in no way am I going, oh, how can I make him look stupid? Or I don't even know if I'm capable of that. But, like, not even trying. Right. I'm like, I think you get a. Well, you don't have to. But maybe even your audience gets like a more well rounded sense of me. Like, we might disagree on everything politically, but maybe it's not, oh, he's evil and he thinks that I'm bad.
- [36:48]
B
Well, it's interesting. Like, yeah, One of the things I've really admired about you and your comedy career is that when I started on comedy, it was before you. I moved to New York in 2000 and the gatekeepers of comedy really decided. Yeah, it decided. You get a sitcom, you're gonna be a talk show host, you're gonna do. You're gonna be on this sketch comedy show. And now it's like people like you and Josh Johnson, who was on this podcast last week.
- [37:18]
A
Josh is crushing it.
- [37:18]
B
He's crushing it. And it's like, no gatekeepers involved. Like, you have made you a star. And the audiences have decided. And we are in a climate right now that, as far as I can understand, is completely unprecedented in the history of entertainment. So what I would say is, because A lot of creatives listening to this show. What is your advice to a creative who's starting out and they want to make what they make and have it reach an audience.
- [37:49]
A
One, I would say, like, now is the best time in history. Like, be really grateful. And sometimes it's hard when you're creating a lot of stuff and it's not immediately getting success, it's very easy to get, like, bitter and kind of resent other people that are successful. I'm sure when you started getting tons of success with what you were doing, I bet all of your contemporaries were really happy for you and they loved it.
- [38:10]
B
You probably witnessed a lot of my contemporaries privately being happy for me at the Cellar when you were coming up.
- [38:17]
A
No, no, actually, no. I didn't hear any. Anybody shitting on you.
- [38:20]
B
Really? Yeah. Maybe it was a little past when people were shitting on me. When I first came to New York, people came down on me hard because I was like 24 on Letterman. People came down hard.
- [38:31]
A
So somebody's 30, they never got a chance to do a late night show and they think you're taking their slot.
- [38:35]
B
Yeah.
- [38:35]
A
Which is not fair to you, by the way.
- [38:36]
B
Brutal.
- [38:37]
A
But it is kind of like this unfortunate human instinct we have. It's shitty, sure, but it is what it is. So you've experienced it a lot. But it's better to experience the hate from your success than to be the one hating on whatever. But what I would say now is that the cool thing about the Internet, if you create authentically and your thing is good, the Internet will help people find it. Doesn't guarantee that it's going to be 10 million or 20 million people. It might be 200,000 people, which is still awesome if you're creating your thing.
- [39:08]
B
Oh, my God.
- [39:09]
A
So this is my piece of advice. And I know it's not the exact question, but this is the thing that I would suggest. The algorithm is incredibly powerful at getting something to the people that want to consume it. My concern is that a lot of creators now are letting the algorithm dictate to them what they create, and they're not taking advantage of the greatest time in history for creators, which is like this decentralized marketplace where we can create our own authentic things and put it out there in the world. There's a million criticisms you could say of what I just said right now. Oh, Schultz, you did this topic or this blah, blah, blah. For sure. One thing that I think that, like, I feel very proud of, especially, especially with standup. Like, I don't. I Don't think algorithmically. An IVF fertility journey is the fucking smash hit, you know? But. But I would say with the pod specifically, is like, there is a way that you can grift off the left or the right, and you just pick a fucking lane and then you just go. Not saying you're doing that, by the way, but, like, there are people that are just going, I'm just gonna be right wing guy, or I'm gonna be left wing guy. The cost of not doing that is you're gonna have episodes that aren't gonna perform. And I would say, good.
- [40:31]
B
Yeah, good.
- [40:32]
A
That means you're not letting the algorithm completely dictate your creative process.
- [40:36]
B
Sure.
- [40:37]
A
Like, that's good. The things should go back and forth and to just be very disciplined in the things that. That you create and make sure they're the things that you really want to do that. I guess that would be my advice, because back in the day, it was just an executive probably telling us, hey, could you change this thing? This thing, whatever. Now the algorithm is letting you know.
- [40:57]
B
Yeah, I think that's right. And I think. I think that the thing I want to point out to people is, you know, I moved to New York in 2000. I started doing comedy in the late 90s, working the door at the Washington D.C. improv. The barriers for entry in that era were like, I mean, so big.
- [41:15]
A
The fact that you're on Letterman 24, like, the amount of hate you must have got, it's, like, unbelievable. And the barriers, impossible at the time.
- [41:23]
B
And also, like, filming a comedy special, like, the idea. The fact that you and Josh Johnson are able to just.
- [41:30]
A
Josh is doing it every week.
- [41:32]
B
Yeah. Just filming it yourself and then just putting it on YouTube. It is. I can't even. It's like a fucking time machine. I feel like I've lived through it.
- [41:41]
A
We have this, like, gratitude for it because we. We knew, like, what it was before and how, like, vulnerable it was. You had no control of your destiny at all.
- [41:48]
B
Yeah.
- [41:49]
A
And now we know we have it. The next crop never knew what begging Comedy Central to give you a special was. So now they just know, oh, I post clips and crowd work does good. So I'll do crowd work. And it's like, okay, something else is also going to do good. Nobody expected that.
- [42:05]
B
And that's going to change.
- [42:06]
A
Exactly.
- [42:07]
B
Like, whatever's popular this year is not going to be popular next year.
- [42:11]
A
Yeah. When I was doing the crowd work, when I put out that crowd work special years, nobody was posting crowd. Like, it wasn't a thing.
- [42:17]
B
Right.
- [42:17]
A
And then it blew up. And then other people was like, oh, okay, that's a thing to go do it. There might be a day where like storytelling becomes so popular that you. You're doing one liner jokes. You're doing like borscht belt, Take my wife plea. Like, you know, like this could happen. But I would say is look for those. That space too. I feel like when you were really kind of. I don't want to say creating stories. No, you're not creating. But like when we were really spearheading that genre that now you see a lot of other people doing. Maybe a lot is not. But there are other people that are.
- [42:48]
B
It's become more popular.
- [42:50]
A
Yeah. By you, let's say at the time where you were doing it, you don't see a lot. It would be like more British acts that would have like a singular kind of theme, but in America, not very common.
- [43:02]
B
Yeah.
- [43:03]
A
You would see some stories and stuff. Like Cosby would tell stories and Prior told stories. Prior told stories. But it was chunks.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [43:11]
A
It's like you're the gremlin and someone fed you after 12.
- [43:15]
B
Yeah. No, no, you're right. And no one, no one, no one watching your special is thinking, oh, Andrew must have talked to Mike Birbigli one night about storytelling.
- [43:25]
A
All these people are like, oh, why'd you decide to do it? And obviously I tell them, the people that I spoke to, but like the people just watching it, it don't understand the trickle down effect.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah.
- [43:32]
A
You know, and like even people listening to this pod for the first time, and obviously there's things they may disagree or agree with. They might, they might be like, wait a minute. So Birbigla created Schultz.
- [43:44]
B
That's right. That's right. Which is, I hopefully is the takeaway minus the Puerto Rican jokes. The last thing we do is working it out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? And we will contribute to them and link to them.
- [44:18]
A
Oh, my God, I love this. Okay, so there's a guy who plays for the Yankees. His name is Carlos Rodone, and he had. He and his wife, I think, went on a similar journey. He asked me if I would come do this thing for him. So I want to be working with. His is. Isn't specifically towards fertility.
- [44:34]
B
Okay.
- [44:34]
A
But I said that I would do some stuff with him in the fall. But. But so if we could do his. And I'll get you like all the information for me.
- [44:42]
B
Amazing. Andrew, congrats on the special. It's fantastic. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled it's so popular.
- [44:48]
A
Thank you so much for helping me with it. Well, it's all your responsibility.
- [44:52]
B
I'll see you. See you. I'll see you over at the Cellar. Working it Out.
- [44:58]
A
Cause it's not done.
- [45:01]
B
We're working it out because there's no. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Andrew Schulz on Instagram at Andrew Schulz. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel @Mike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos. Check out burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about my upcoming shows, our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky. Special thanks as always to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. I noticed that a bunch of you have been doing that lately. You wrote about Nathan Lane being one of your favorite episodes. I thought that was awesome. I know a lot of people have been writing about Josh Johnson. That was a great one. If you're new and you enjoyed this episode, we have over 160 episodes that we've done since 2020 and they are all free. No paywall. We've had Ben Stiller and Adam Scott and Tig Notaro and Joe Firestone and so many people. Check out our back catalog and comment on Apple Podcasts, which is your favorite. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell your work friends. You know, we've all got some work friends who we like very much, but maybe we don't see eye to eye on political things, you know, Working it out is a great podcast that is primarily about comedy process and humor and jokes and joy. I think we might both enjoy it together. We could listen to it in the break room. Thanks, everybody. We're working it up. See you next time.