167. Jessica Kirson: She's the Man

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out – Episode 167. Jessica Kirson: She's the Man

In Episode 167 of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, host Mike Birbiglia engages in an insightful and heartfelt conversation with renowned comedian Jessica Kirson. This episode delves deep into Jessica's comedic journey, personal struggles, family dynamics, and the intricate balance between vulnerability and humor. Below is a detailed summary capturing the essence of their discussion, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for key moments.

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1. Introduction and Background

Mike Birbiglia kicks off the conversation by expressing his admiration for Jessica Kirson, highlighting her prowess on Instagram through her Crowdberg videos and her upcoming Hulu special titled I'm the Man. He also shares updates about his new special, The Good Life, which is set to release on Netflix on May 26th, and his upcoming tour with John Mulaney, Nick Kroll, and Fred Armisen.

Notable Quote:

• "The algorithm made your comedy reach the people who wanted your comedy. And it's so exciting." — Mike Birbiglia [04:47]

2. Dealing with Hecklers

Jessica recounts a particularly intense experience with a heckler at the Comedy Cellar. Feeling burnt out and frustrated, she encounters a disruptive audience member whose derogatory comments push her to her limits. This confrontation not only showcases her ability to handle adversity on stage but also reflects her personal struggles with anger and vulnerability.

Notable Quote:

• "Any man that would say what you just said to me hates women. What did your mother do to you?" — Jessica Kirson [11:58]

3. Family and Personal Background

Jessica opens up about her unique family dynamics, particularly her mother's role as a therapist who conducted sessions in their home. She also touches upon her relationship with her stepbrother, Zach Braff, and the influence of her upbringing on her comedic style. The conversation delves into how these familial interactions shaped her approach to comedy and personal growth.

Notable Quote:

• "We lived in Jersey. We lived in a house where she saw clients in the basement. And it was insane." — Jessica Kirson [22:38]

4. Comedy Career and Experiences

The duo discusses the gritty beginnings of a comedy career, emphasizing the importance of performing in challenging venues like laundromats to hone one's craft. Jessica shares anecdotes about performing in diverse settings, including corporate events and Orthodox Jewish gatherings, highlighting the varied challenges comedians face depending on their audience.

Notable Quote:

• "We did laundromats." — Jessica Kirson [06:32]

• "It's like the shared area in a mental institution. Someone's just talking to themselves. Someone's crying. Someone's like, people are shouting at each other." — Jessica Kirson [14:18]

5. Impact of Social Media on Career Growth

Jessica reflects on how social media platforms have revolutionized her reach and connection with audiences. Unlike traditional pathways in the comedy industry, which often delay recognition, social media allowed her to bypass certain barriers and connect directly with fans, amplifying her comedic voice.

Notable Quote:

• "The audience doesn't lie." — Jessica Kirson [04:52]

6. Authenticity and Vulnerability in Comedy

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the balance between being authentic and maintaining comedic allure on stage. Jessica emphasizes the importance of vulnerability in her performances, sharing how personal traumas and fears are integral to her comedic material. They explore the therapeutic aspects of comedy and how it serves as a medium for personal expression and healing.

Notable Quote:

• "I'm a comic who happens to be a lesbian." — Jessica Kirson [20:12]

7. Writing and Developing Material

Jessica and Mike delve into their creative processes, discussing how they ideate, test, and refine their comedic material. They highlight the iterative nature of comedy writing, where initial ideas often undergo significant transformation through performance and audience feedback.

Notable Quote:

• "I write my journal for that exact reason." — Mike Birbiglia [56:32]

8. Personal Life and Parenting

The conversation takes a heartfelt turn as Jessica shares stories about her children, particularly her daughter Isabella's battle with heart disease. They discuss the profound impact of parenting on their lives and how their roles as parents influence their perspectives and comedic narratives.

Notable Quote:

• "I just cried. Like, this is so beautiful. Like, I was so proud of Isabella." — Jessica Kirson [38:35]

9. Insights and Conclusions

Wrapping up the episode, Mike and Jessica offer valuable insights into the life of a comedian, emphasizing the importance of self-work, authenticity, and resilience. They encourage listeners to embrace vulnerability and utilize personal experiences as sources of strength and humor.

Notable Quote:

• "You're the same. I can't do comedy and not be real and talk about my stuff." — Jessica Kirson [26:40]

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Key Takeaways:

• Handling Adversity: Jessica's experience with hecklers underscores the challenges comedians face and the importance of maintaining composure under pressure.

• Influence of Family: Growing up with a therapist mother and a famous stepbrother played a pivotal role in shaping Jessica's comedic style and personal resilience.

• Role of Social Media: The power of platforms like Instagram has been instrumental in Jessica's rise, allowing her to reach audiences directly without relying solely on traditional industry pathways.

• Authenticity in Comedy: Embracing vulnerability and personal stories enriches comedic performances, making them resonate more deeply with audiences.

• Personal Growth through Comedy: Both Jessica and Mike highlight how comedy serves as a therapeutic outlet, aiding in personal growth and emotional healing.

• Parenting Insights: Parenthood adds another layer to their lives, providing fresh material and perspectives that influence their comedy.

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Conclusion

Episode 167 of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out with Jessica Kirson is a profound exploration of the intersections between comedy, personal struggle, and resilience. Through candid storytelling and mutual respect, Mike and Jessica offer listeners both laughter and introspection, making this episode a must-listen for fans of authentic and heartfelt comedy.

Additional Information:

• Watch Jessica Kirson’s Special: I'm the Man on Hulu.
• Follow Jessica Kirson on Instagram: @jesskirsten.
• Watch the Episode on YouTube: Mike Birbiglia's YouTube Channel.
• Support the Cause: Contributions are made to the Children's Heart Foundation.

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This summary encapsulates the rich and engaging conversation between Mike Birbiglia and Jessica Kirson, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Jessica Kirson]

This guy supposedly had been heckling some comics and he was sitting in the front row. And so I had heard he was like a problem, you know, buff, like, financial guy from Connecticut. White.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, white.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Big problem.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. Don't get me jacked up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

White. Don't get me started, Jess.

[Jessica Kirson]

Even whiter than you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Jessica Kirson. I have been wanting to talk to Jessica Kirsten on this podcast since the beginning. She is a comedian's comedian. She is so funny. Wildly popular on Instagram thanks to her Crowdburg videos. We talked about that on this episode. She's one of the few comedians who does that really well and brings artwork to that form. She has a new special on Hulu that is hilarious. It is called I'm the Man. It is so funny. So we have a great chat today. I mentioned this last week, but my new special is called the Good Life, which we filmed at the Beacon Theater in New York City a few weeks ago. It will be on Netflix May 26th. Mark your calendars. Monday, May 26th. I'm so happy with how it turned out. I think it might be the best one. I'll leave that to you to judge. Thank you to everyone who has come out to that tour over the last two years that's had different names, Please Stop the Ride as well as the Good Life. Check that out on Netflix. May 26th. In the meantime, this summer I'm lucky enough to be joining John Mulaney on some of his tour dates. August 9th, I'll be in Portland, Maine, at the Cross Insurance Arena. It's me, Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen opening up for John Mulaney or being special guests on the John Mulaney Show. Then August 10th at Garrison Grounds in Halifax. That's also Mulaney headlining. Me, Kroll, Fred ARMISEN, and finally, September 13th, Stanley park in Vancouver. I should point out that's not going to be my full hour of comedy. I'll probably do. I think me, Nick and Fred will all end up doing probably about 20 minutes on those shows and then John will probably do an hour and it's going to build me some great shows. I mean, that's one of the coolest lineups I've ever been on. You can get tickets for all of [e-mail] love this chat with Jessica Kirsten. We talk about dealing with heckler. She tells a wild story about one time when she understandably lost it on a very mean heckler. We talk about her family growing up her mother was a therapist who saw clients in their house. Her stepbrother is, of course, Zach Braff, who was a guest on this podcast about six months ago. Check out that episode. That's a really good one about filmmaking. We have a great conversation today. I think you're gonna love this one. Enjoy my chat with the great Jessica Kirson. Jessica, your special is so funny.

[Jessica Kirson]

Thank you, Mike.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a riot. It just feels alive.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you're just crushing. It's awesome.

[Jessica Kirson]

Thank you. I've always been conscious of putting on a show, you know what I mean? Like, really entertaining people. I also don't think people have a good. Obviously have a good attention span anymore, and my brain is insane, so I'm just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Well, it's interesting. It's like, you're one of the people, and it's like, we all lament because you have kids, too, but it's like, we all lament what social media has done that in nightmarish ways.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's horrible.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But then, weirdly, like, for certain comedians, it's great. And you're one of those comedians. I always bring you up because I'm always, like, all of us comedians, you know, Jim Gavigan and, like, everyone. All in your clubs for years is like, jess Kirsten's one of the funniest people on the planet. But the industry wasn't, like, giving you a show or whatever. And then social media, you're one of the people. The algorithm made your comedy reach the people who wanted your comedy. And it's so exciting.

[Jessica Kirson]

I love that you're saying that because I was never, ever handed things, like, it took forever for me to get on Premium Blend on Comedy Central, like, years, which was the first TV show I did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Me, too.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right. And then I, like, I couldn't ever get a special, so Bill Burr produced both.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow. That's really cool.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. He produced Comedy Central, and this one executive produced. And, like, they just. It's like, the fans have always gotten me. The comics have always gotten me. Like, you comics think you're brilliant, but I haven't needed the industry as much. I mean, I've always worked, and I have some stuff going on now, but it's like, it should have taken half the time, and I'm okay with it, but it is what it is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's kind of like it's the good thing about social media, which is, like, the audience decides.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The audience doesn't lie.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

On social media, and your clips have just blown up, and it's just been Very. Yeah. It's so satisfying to watch. So it's funny. We were just talking about. I had done a corporate event yesterday, which are hard.

[Jessica Kirson]

They're very hard.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They're very hard because. And I enjoy doing them. But I will say, like, there's this great, like, Brian Regan line that he. He did once in an interview. He said once in an interview about how, like, the job of a comedian is to turn a group of people into an audience.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And, like, that's what's hard about corporate shows. Cause when you're in a comedy club, lights and drinks and, like, everyone's focused on the stage, but you're in a. You're in a conference room.

[Jessica Kirson]

When you're in a bathroom, it's very hard to make people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you're in someone's kitchen, when you're placed in someone's kitchen, it's hard to make people laugh.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so, like. But you and I have done a lot of corporate events over the years.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then Jen said. My wife said to me yesterday, she goes, you know, when Una gets old enough, she's like, I'll come to some of the corporate events with you. Like, it's an act of solidarity.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, you're like, you'll divorce me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly.

[Jessica Kirson]

If you come to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly. Don't. No, no, I don't want you to. Don't. I don't want you to see me this way.

[Jessica Kirson]

I. I don't want you to see me suffer.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. But then you were saying that you've. You've done. Wait, is it. Were you saying synagogue shows or.

[Jessica Kirson]

I've done every. I mean, I'm like a comedy whore. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you. I mean, I've done. We started. We did laundromats and. Oh, yeah, everything. Bars and people sometimes think we're exaggerating.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When we say we did Laundromats.

[Jessica Kirson]

No, we did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We did laundromats.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. You, me, Dimitri, Martin, like a bunch of people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. Gaffigan, Some Laundromats.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, I do Gaffigan. Used to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Gavin is a great example. He plays arenas now. He used to do laundromats.

[Jessica Kirson]

Kills in Laundromats.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But weirdly, like, that's how you get good.

[Jessica Kirson]

Of course. Cause it's hard. It's like. Yeah, but no, I've done so many corporate events, and people will be like, how do you do a clean hour? I'm like, I learned how to do it. Like, I do. I do, you know, Orthodox shows.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, Orthodox. Jewish shows.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. And they're not easy. Not easy at all. Because first of all, there's kids there most of the time, and they're just running around and throwing chocolate at me. I just stand there, like, hoping to catch it. And they're like, you suck. You know? And I'm like, oh, my God. It's. It's a lot. But I. I've had so many experiences at these Orthodox shows or just shows for old people, not even Jewish. They're just. They all. I always say this. They look at you like this. Just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Just judging you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wincing, you know, wincing and squinting and judging all simultaneously.

[Jessica Kirson]

When I say I killed, I mean, like, someone died. This is amazing. I have so many stories, but one time, a woman just had her head down the whole time in the front row. And I'm like, either she sound asleep or dead. Like, I just was like, whatever. It's fine if she's dead. Then she fell. Like, she went peacefully. Cause her head was just down. And then in the middle of the show, she just raised her face like this, and she goes, you're all over the place.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. You're all over the place. Oh, my God. I had one the other day, so Nikki Glaser did the Beacon, and I did a spot on one of the shows one night. And sometimes you do someone else's show and they just want to see the person they came for.

[Jessica Kirson]

Which makes sense, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Guy in the front row. This is so crazy. Guy in the front row kind of like half passed out. And every.

[Jessica Kirson]

Everyone's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

During my set.

[Jessica Kirson]

During my set, of course, I'm screaming on stage, and they're like, yeah, like, half past that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then he wakes up and he looks at me and he points at me.

[Jessica Kirson]

Points.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then he does thumbs down.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, this happens.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then he goes back to sleep. It was the most perverse heckle.

[Jessica Kirson]

Do you think he thought he was somewhere else?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I do.

[Jessica Kirson]

He might have.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think there was a disassociation occurring.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. I think he was doing it to his father. Yeah. I've gotten. I mean, I've gotten. I wrap it up. That's. When someone did that. I almost killed. I'm not kidding. I freaked out. Did you ever finger mush of a. Do you ever lose it? I lose it like, one to two times a year. Normally. I don't. Like, you could be on your phone. I'm like, ugh, whatever. I'm not even. I can't. But once or twice a year, I lose it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, it's what's the worst you ever lost it.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, this is a great story. I don't even think I've ever told this on a podcast before. Yeah, I was at the Comedy Cellar, and I was very burnt out. Like, I was on the road for weeks. And this guy supposedly had been heckling some comics, and he was sitting in the front row in the fat black, which is a tiny room. Like, everyone can see each other, right? 60 people. And so I had heard he was, like, a problem. You know, buff, like, financial guy from Connecticut. White.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, white. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big problem.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. Don't get me jacked up on you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't get me started, Jess.

[Jessica Kirson]

Even whiter than you. And he was sitting there with his girlfriend, and they were very attractive. And I went up. I was the last comic, and they got up to leave, like, the minute I went up. So I was like, oh. I'm like, I'm sorry, you guys have to go. Like, everyone saw them leave. And I'm like, hopefully, you're going to have sex. You're both very attractive. And he's like, yeah, whatever. And then they left. And then he comes back in the room. He walks back in during my set.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And he goes, by the way, your hair is fucking disgusting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God, what a weird thing to say.

[Jessica Kirson]

I lost it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

I swear. Do you ever swear?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Something happened in my brain, and I was like, oh. Like, I got silent. And then he left the room, and the audience was like. And I said. I couldn't believe I did this. I'm like, excuse me for one second. And I put the mic in the stand, and I walked off the stage quietly and walked back into that curtain area. You know, it's a tiny area where people pay in between the two rooms. And he was standing there with his girlfriend and the security guys, who are enormous. You know what I mean? Like, the guys who were at the Cellar, big guys, the guys. I couldn't believe it. I took him and I pushed him against the wall by his neck. He was huge. And I said, don't you ever. I know you're freaking out. This is a crazy thing. And I said. He was looking at me like I was in. He was in shock, and I wasn't. And I said, don't you ever fucking talk to me like that again. And so the whole crowd heard me because there's only a curtain. And I'm like, you fucking hate women. Any man that would say what you just said to me hates women. I'm like, what did your mother do to you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

And then I looked at her and I go, if you talk to me, a stranger like that, you must be the most abusive. Like, I went. I wasn't screaming. I was literally just, like, talking to him as if he needed. I was like, you need help. You need to go talk to someone because. And the security guys were dying, laughing. You know, they're like 7ft tall. They were screaming, laughing, that I did that in front of him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

And then I took my hand off his shirt and I went back. I don't get physical with people. But I lost it. And I went back on the stage and I go, okay. And they stood up and gave me a standing ovation.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

The people in the audience. And I just went into my set. I'm like, I'm sorry. I just did that. But I snapped.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, that is so crazy.

[Jessica Kirson]

You know, it reminded me of what I grew up with. Like, my dad was amazing and, you know, like, the funniest person I've ever known. But he had a temper problem.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And he said a lot of stuff that was not okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, me too.

[Jessica Kirson]

Really bad.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My new special, I talk about a lot.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, I can't wait to see that so I can cry. He was like. He was difficult in that way, so I snapped.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I feel like I had more of those earlier in my career because it's like, what you're describing is interesting, of someone saying something that's just, like, cold and mean.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's mean. I'm like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you're on stage, and so it's like, we're not equipped for that.

[Jessica Kirson]

No, we're not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No one is trained for that.

[Jessica Kirson]

And we're not. Okay. I mean, I'm not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, totally.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I mean, that's the funny thing about, like, you know, at. You and I are friends from the. From the Comedy Cellar through the years. And it's like people always say. Or some people say, like, Seinfeld, who. Whom I revere, is always like, you know, there's crazy people in every profession. Comedians are. No. Crazy or whatever.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's like, no, that's not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's walk that back a little bit.

[Jessica Kirson]

I don't think accountants are as crazy as comedians.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I think it's a pretty. I think it's a little bit of a broken profession. Like, if you sit at that table, you sit at the table full of comedians for. With six comedians for an hour, you'd be like. You might have reevaluated that statement.

[Jessica Kirson]

You see the table at the Comedy Cellar with comedians, it's like. It's like the. Like the shared area in a mental institution. Like, someone's just talking to themselves. Someone's crying. Someone's like, people are shouting at each other.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's a political debate that's.

[Jessica Kirson]

I can't do it anymore.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God. All of us comedians, we think of you as a comedian's comedian, which is a term people use because you're fearless or you seem to be fearless.

[Jessica Kirson]

I'm not fearless.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So what is the fear? Like, when you're on stage or when you were starting out, what was the actual fear?

[Jessica Kirson]

Well, first of all, I'd never performed before, so I was panicked. I was throwing up before my first performance. I was really not okay. I was freaking out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow. And I threw up after one of my first ones, too.

[Jessica Kirson]

You did?

[Mike Birbiglia]

On the sidewalk at a strip mall in Virginia? Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, this is getting worse and worse.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fat Tuesdays in Virginia. I was hoping for this guy.

[Jessica Kirson]

Literally everything you're saying is making it worse. Fat Tuesday.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was like a one night. It's not a con. It's like a one night a week. They have comedy. There's a PA system, you know, and they're, you know, I'm supposed to do 30 minutes. And I know that, and that's a lot. Yeah. And I know that I don't have it right.

[Jessica Kirson]

Of course. I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And they go, mike, you're on. And I, you know, I have 10 minutes, probably, of comedy that's happened to me.

[Jessica Kirson]

And you're like, you know, when you're. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which makes it worse, by the way.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The slowing down of comedy is the great death of comedy. The thing that you're going to buy yourself more minutes of comedy with slowing down is the great fallacy.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So then I threw up on the sidewalk, and then I walked on. And then the comedian I opened for apparently has told this story often to this very day.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. That's his new act. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you threw up the.

[Jessica Kirson]

I was panicked about performing for a long. And I still, you know, I go through a really weird experience now because I'll go on stage in front of 1,000 people in the theater, and I disassociate. I can't take it in. I can't. My ego cannot take the whole thing in. It's like, it's a job.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I'm there, but I'm not there. This is honestly the truth, because it's so overwhelming to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

Like, when I get off, sometimes I'm like, what just happened?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Jessica Kirson]

Why am I standing in front of a thousand people? Like, what happened to me? I was just like, this girl from Jersey. I never expected any of this. I never thought any of this would happen. I really didn't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

So it's very overwhelming, and I actually. I need more of an ego, and I need to be less. A little less humble because I have to literally, like, force myself to stand there. In my mind, I'm like, stay here. Just stay here. Take it in. Because it's a lot for me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's interesting. Cause that is one thing that. When I was doing that corporate event yesterday, and I'm talking on stage about how my wife is an introvert, and then this guy said to me afterwards, he goes, oh, you say your wife's an introvert, but a lot of people say comedians are introverts. And I was like, it's true. But in an introvert, introvert relationship, someone has to be the extrovert or else you'll just never leave the house. Right? Like, that's the whole thing.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But as a comedian, it's this odd thing because people expect. Because you're on stage talking, when you get off stage, they think the party continues with me.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. And it totally doesn' no, it doesn't. Like, I'm so awkward when I'm not on stage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I have a theory, which is that some of the reason why introverts end up on stage is because when we're in groups of people and we're telling a story or a joke, everyone just interrupts you.

[Jessica Kirson]

That's true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You'll be like, yeah, one time I was, you know, fishing. I have a story about when I was fishing. You're like, no, no.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you're like, no, no, I have a. I'm telling a story, you know.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I think that comedy is an attempt to take control of that.

[Jessica Kirson]

I agree. I don't know how you grew up, but I just was silent, like, with my friends. I was on and I was joking and I was the class clown.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

But at home, everyone was so, like, so much that I just shut down.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cause you're a big family.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's not. We're big in personality.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Like, everyone is. Like, I used to say, the women in my family, when I was a kid, it was like hurricanes coming in, like tornadoes. They're just powerful women. And, you know, it was like, this is okay. Not in a bad way, but everyone. I felt that everyone was controlling, and I just shut down.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So then you were kind of holding a lot of stuff in. So then once you did comedy, it was like an explosion.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right. And I feel like I'm in control now. Like I'm. I have power. When I'm on stage, I feel very powerful. When I'm off stage, I feel like a mess.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's usually when I see you. When you and I see each other at the club, it's usually we're both a little bit of a horse. It's. It is.

[Jessica Kirson]

We should be. This is a crazy business. It's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's a crazy. And it's a crazy world, no less. So then it's when you would throw up at the beginning of your career.

[Jessica Kirson]

When I was bulimic. Oh, God, sorry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you were throwing up from fear of going on stage, what were you. What were you afraid would happen?

[Jessica Kirson]

Everything. I mean, I'm a fearful person. I've always been filled with fear, you're.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Gonna fall down, you're gonna bomb everything.

[Jessica Kirson]

Everything. Oh, on stage. Oh. I was mostly afraid of what people would say to me because I, you know, with the verbal abuse, I was really afraid. I felt very scared, and I was heckled a lot in the beginning, and I wasn't funny enough to make it funny. So it became this argument, like, were.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You out when you started? So you. So people didn't know you were a lesbian?

[Jessica Kirson]

No, I purposely. This was my decision, and it should be anyone's decision, but again, back then, I mean, this is a long time ago. You know, we've been doing it for a very long time. There wasn't a ton of out comedians.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, there weren't.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I looked at what a lot of people did, like, oh, my God, Wanda and Ellen.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, Ellen. On and on and on.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right. Rosie, Kathleen, Madigan. Right. They got big, and then they did it. And once I had. Once we had my first daughter, I'm like, I can't. Like, I have to be okay with this and be open and free, and I don't want her to ever feel like it's a bad thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, of course.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. So I came out. But I've been doing gay shows for years, by the way. I also wanted. I didn't want to be seen as a lesbian comic because I'm not. I'm a comic who happens to be a lesbian. You know, So I. That's. You get. You know, I would be called that if I had started that way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And also, there's a lot of, like, just gay comic shows and all that. Kind of stuff. But you wanted to be just in the ensemble of just comedians.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes. Which. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you figure jokes out on stage and then. And then what's the process? You go home, you listen, you transcribe.

[Jessica Kirson]

I come up with an idea and then I usually. I mean, I write jokes for it, but I usually go up and then just like improv other stuff. That's what I did last night. And then I. I write that stuff down and then I keep building on it. So it's. Because a lot of times, as you know, you'll write stuff and you're like, this is hilarious. And then when you say it, it's like, this is not. There's nothing funny about that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's nothing worse than that feeling.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's horrible.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The laughter in your head at the joke.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's the worst.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Imagining people loving you, dying.

[Jessica Kirson]

You're like, this is so clever. This is gonna kill.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then they're like, my life is gonna change.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right. But then what about the ones that you go up and it kills from the start? That is heaven.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, nothing like drugs.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's drugs.

[Jessica Kirson]

It is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your mother's a therapist and used to see clients in the house growing up. What was the oddest patient you remember growing up that she had.

[Jessica Kirson]

This is so. I have thought many times, and I've been asked to do a one woman show about my situation with my mother because.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

We lived in Jersey. We lived in a house where she saw clients in the basement.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Jessica Kirson]

And it was insane. It was insane. Was it really? Like, you interviewed Zach. Zach Braff, my stepbrother. And so we would listen to the cl.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Jesus Christ.

[Jessica Kirson]

We would, like, literally.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Jess, you're describing, as a patient of therapy, you're describing my biggest nightmare.

[Jessica Kirson]

I know, I know. Well, now there's sound machines and there's sound machines. Yeah. Like, there's all different things. Well, most therapists use sound machines.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, really?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. Mine uses a loudspeaker so the whole town can hear it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's broadcast at Lowe's.

[Jessica Kirson]

Lowe's. Yeah. Cause I'm a lesbian.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you think of your profession as a comic analogous to your mom's job as a therapist?

[Jessica Kirson]

100%.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It feels similar. When I watch you do crowd work, it feels like that.

[Jessica Kirson]

Well, first of all, I went to school to be a social worker for a master's. And I was like, I can't do this. It's too upsetting. Like, I can't listen to people. I can't it's just traumatic. I'm amazed by that. People can do that. Yeah. I feel people's energy even when I'm in a store or something. Like, I just couldn't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you're in Lowe's.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. When I'm in Home Depot or. Or the car shop on the softball field. But I. Yeah. That was so hacky. I hate myself. So I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Doing the voice.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, right. You're so hacky.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're so.

[Jessica Kirson]

You're doing the best you can.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a podcast. No one will hear it.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. Yeah. This isn't a big deal. I do. I've been in therapy since I'm eight years old.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, no kidding.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. Yeah. I was sent very young, and so I'm very. And my. Yeah, I'm very aware. Plus, I had anxious, moody parents. So you learn how to, like, deal with people and deal with situations.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, would you. What. What, at 8 years old, led your parents to. To put you in therapy?

[Jessica Kirson]

It was my mom.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, your mom.

[Jessica Kirson]

Because she was, like, very into therapy and therapists, and so I was right in there. I had a relationship with my mother, and then I had a relationship with her with therapy stuff, I would guess.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She loves your comedy.

[Jessica Kirson]

She loves it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. That's the kind of person who would love your comedy. My parents, they don't dislike my comedy. They're just not into it.

[Jessica Kirson]

Really?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Because you're so brilliant.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's nice to say, but I don't think they disrespect me. It's more just like. It's not their thing.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean. Yeah. Who do they like? Carrot Top.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They love Carrot Top. Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. They love Earthquake. I mean, who.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They love Carrot Top and Earthquake Quick and. Yeah, they. They have a lot of bootleg Bernie Mac outfits.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, my God. That's amazing. Bernie Mac. Tracy Morgan. I know. There's so many people they're into.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, they. No, they don't. I don't know. But. But. But my. Yeah, they're just. And also, I talk about so many personal things.

[Jessica Kirson]

I know. Me too.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Love that.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like the opposite of my upbringing, but with your. But your mom, I would love.

[Jessica Kirson]

She's a. She's the kindest person. She really is. She doesn't have a bad bone in her body. And she really was trying to fix me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

She was always trying to fix me. But the thing is, you kids, you know, like, they need to feel their feelings. Everyone does. So it's like, there was always, like, okay, well, let's do Eye Movement. Let's do. Reiki.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's do.

[Jessica Kirson]

And it's like, no, let me just feel this. So I've done a lot of work on myself to feel.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, sure. That. That makes a ton of sense. Yeah. But, yeah, I would. I would imagine she would love your comedy because it's so unfiltered, which is, in a lot of ways, what you're trying. A therapist is trying to get someone to be.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is unfiltered. It is unbottle themselves.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right. I feel like I can't. I know. You're the same. I can't do comedy and not be real and talk about my stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, you ever say anything where you're shocked by what you've said and you're.

[Jessica Kirson]

Like, I owe every time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you think of one where you're like, I actually probably shouldn't mention that.

[Jessica Kirson]

You mean about my life?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Or a fear or even a feeling?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. I mean, oh, my God. I've talked about. I've talked about my parents, you know, my dad or tell a story, and the crowd is like. And to me, it's funny at this point. Like, but it doesn't work. It doesn't get laughs because they feel bad for me. Like, my dad always hit his head against things when he was angry. He didn't hit us, but he would, like, slam his head into a cabinet.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God, that's so funny.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He would slam his head into a cabinet. Jesus.

[Jessica Kirson]

And just. I'm like, okay, I won't get a haircut. I'll grow it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you talk about that on stage. And the audience would be like, e.

[Jessica Kirson]

They're freaking out, of course.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. That is definitely. That's definitely a balancing act, I feel like, with comics, where when a comic watches another comic, there's no degree of dark that one of us won't laugh at each other.

[Jessica Kirson]

We laugh hard, and if no one's laughing, we laugh even harder.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But the audiences usually pull you back from that, and they're like, wait a minute. That's a bridge too far.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you have a bit that you've done where it didn't work at first and it ends up being, like, one of your strongest bits because it's too.

[Jessica Kirson]

Much that I went to fat camp.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

I went for four years, and for a long time they were like, this is the saddest. So I had to learn how to say it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How did you learn?

[Jessica Kirson]

Because, you know, after doing something for so long, you can Tell which parts you need to, like, soften or fluff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Jessica Kirson]

So I would say, you know, I wanted to go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Oh, that's like.

[Jessica Kirson]

My parents didn't send me. I really wanted to go. And it was a blast. Cause all the kids were really nice. Cause they hated themselves.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

So everyone was really.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's so funny.

[Jessica Kirson]

And it was like. It's a great bit. Because it's all. There's so many more things I could say, though, and I've tried to say. And they just can't go with me. Like, we lined up on Saturdays in bathing suits on hills. It was in the Berkshires in Massachusetts to get weighed. And we got weighed in the. Where we ate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jessica Kirson]

In the mess hole. Which is so sad to people, but it's so funny to me, like, now it's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'm sure, really cathartic for people.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who had the same experience.

[Jessica Kirson]

Of course.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Or people who've had cattle.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had that with my sleepwalking. Like, when I first talked about jumping through a window sleepwalking, the audience was.

[Jessica Kirson]

Like, I know, I know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But then as long as you assure them at the beginning that you're okay. Now I feel like that was the key.

[Jessica Kirson]

It is the key. Like, I'll say, I'm okay talking about this. I feel great about myself now. But, like. And I will say sometimes, like, you can let go. I'm okay with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I'm like, if you didn't. If you're not laughing, it's. Cause you hate your own body. Like, that's psychological. But it's true. I'm like, you're not. You're not that worried about me. You're really. You have issues with your own stuff. I really believe that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how. Yeah. I have that with my new show where I'm like. I talk about my dad having a stroke, and sometimes it gets quiet, and I'm like, it's my dad.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I literally tell the audience. I go, it's my dad. It would be weird if I was talking about your dad. It was like, this guy's dad had a stroke. It's like the most perverse insult comedy ever.

[Jessica Kirson]

I know about everyone in this audience. Yeah. Your dad suffered a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've done some research. You go around the room, talk about everyone's ailing parents.

[Jessica Kirson]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you. I feel like your Persona on stage is like, you're witty, but also, you're tough, but also you're loose and that is me say wild things. Are you ever intimidating to people off stage? And you have to, like, diffuse it.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes, always.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Everyone thinks that I am the way I am on stage, and that's, like, a small part of me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, part of why I'm so, like, that is because I'm so scared and vulnerable. So I'm like an animal that's, like, afraid, like, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're there with a bat.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, I'm petrified.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. How do you have a trick for defusing people?

[Jessica Kirson]

You mean on stage?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Offstage? Like, offstage if people are intimidated by you? Because I feel like when I first met you, I was intimidated by you.

[Jessica Kirson]

I know whenever people tell me that, I'm like, but I get it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Was there a turning point in your comedy career where you felt like you could be brutally honest about, like, personal things in your life? Because I feel like when I met you, you weren't talking as much about personal stuff. And I feel like you went into that in the last, like, few years.

[Jessica Kirson]

I always talked about my mom being a therapist. I mean, not in the beginning beginning, but no, I didn't talk about relationship stuff. Also, now I have kids, so I didn't talk about that. And that's personal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, not talking about relationship stuff is a lot. I made jokes about, like, my weight issues or stuff, but they weren't how they are now. About what. What caused them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Do people. Do people ever. Because you're like, people see this in your special. But it's like, your show I would describe as so different from other comedy.

[Jessica Kirson]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, it's so original.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's really important to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So important. But do you ever have people. That's not what they came. They came for and they didn't expect it. And have you ever had people complain about you?

[Jessica Kirson]

Of course.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, what would they. What. What are the compl. Look like?

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, they're. You know that I'm vulgar offensive. Right. I do characters of Jewish people that I grew up with, and I've had Jews call me anti Semitic.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, right. You do a Jewish grandmother character.

[Jessica Kirson]

This is my grandmother.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think is. When you're doing a Jewish grandmother, is that your grandmother?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That voice.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. You need to go like, that's my nanny B. That's my nanny B. And I grew up around all that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

People who are just listening to this should. Should watch the special and see the face that you make.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You go. You contort your face into what's probably what your Grandmother's face looks like.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. I've been doing faces and voices my entire. I'm talking since I'm a young kid.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Since you were a kid.

[Jessica Kirson]

I was alone a lot, so I would entertain myself.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I'd just be in front of the mirror and just be making faces and voices. And I was insane. Like, yeah, it's cute. But it was. You know, someone walked in, they'd be like, this kid needs help.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It's so similar. Rachel Feinstein was on the podcast last week and similar.

[Jessica Kirson]

My best friend.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know she's. I know you guys are great friends. Both of you just embody the people.

[Jessica Kirson]

Isn't that. She's the. She is so brilliant. I can. Like, when she does her, like, grandmother, her mother, and her mom's a therapist. I mean, we are. We have so much in common.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you have so much in common. You both do a thing where you embody the character and it feels like. It feels. I mean, I don't know these people, but it feels accurate. Do you try to go for accurate, too?

[Jessica Kirson]

I do. I do, because I just feel like if I'm gonna do a character, it can't be half assed. Like, I really need to become the person as much as I can like the body things. And it's just so much more interesting. And I got that from watching old comics. Like, people who did characters. Saturday Night Live stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Who were your biggest influences?

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, Gilda Radner I loved. She's not a comic, but Lucille Ball, because her face was so. You know, Carol Burnett show was my incredible. I died laughing at that show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Old Saturday Night Live people just. I was more into sketch stuff than standup. I was never. Believe it or not, I was never a fan of standup. I'm still not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's interesting how like. Like, I'm still not.

[Jessica Kirson]

I'm not. I mean, it's so crazy, but I don't watch. Like, I'll watch you and, like, 10 other people. Like, I'll watch Gaffigan. I'll watch people that. I can't watch all these specials. I feel bad saying that, but I just can't do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What is it that takes you out of it?

[Jessica Kirson]

I want to know who someone is. It's like, I want to know who you are when you get off stage. I want to know your vulnerabilities, your characteristics. I really do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't want to hear you.

[Jessica Kirson]

Just other people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I feel it's wrong.

[Jessica Kirson]

I also feel like. And I've always. I'm sure you do. I mean, look at what you do. You're so vulnerable and honest and real. And it's so much harder to talk about your relationships or your parents. I mean, it's easier to just talk about, like, just random things. But I just don't laugh hard. I always say there's two different comics. There's ones who are givers and there's ones who are takers. And you can really tell when you watch a standup. You can tell the ones that really want to make people laugh, that want to help people that are doing it mostly selflessly. And then there's ones who. It's all about them. It's all about them being. Getting, you know, attention.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And. Yeah. And I've never laughed at those people, ever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that makes total sense. Support for Working it out comes from Helix. Helix has been a sponsor of Working it out for a long time. Years, actually. And we love Helix. They cater to your every sleeping need. They do mattresses. We love that. Helix does blankets, too. I love the weighted blanket. The weighted blanket, by the way. It's a good gift, I think. I feel like it's one of those things. If you gave it to someone as a gift for birthday or whatever, I don't think they'd see it coming. I think it's one of those things that people go, oh, I always thought I might want a weighted blanket, and I do. I could talk about pillows and mattresses all day, but we got to get back to the podcast. So go to helixsleep.comburbigs for 20% off site wide, plus two free dream pillows with mattress purchase. That's helixsleep.combrabiggs for 20% off. That's pretty good. Say why to plus two free dream pillows with Mattress purchase. Helixsleep.comburbigs this is a slow round. Is there a song that makes you cry?

[Jessica Kirson]

Piano music makes me cry. Like, I love George Winston. And when I listen. When I'm having a time, I listen to piano music and I'll just. Sometimes I listen to music to make myself cry. Cause I have a hard time crying. Sometimes. I'm the same way you are.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When I'm built up, I dealt with movies and music.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

What kind of music do you listen to?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like I. What gets me in an emotional state is like. Like the national, the band.

[Jessica Kirson]

The national is very emotional to me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Jessica Kirson]

I get it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Radiohead is very emotional to me.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But, yeah, that piano music, that's really interesting. I had it last night where my daughter Una was playing ukulele and I was. I'm not very good, but I played guitar like a little bit. And we were just jammin. And it actually brought me so much joy. I was almost like. Tears of joy.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's funny you just said that. Cause I had tears of joy the other day with my kids.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Really?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. My daughter Madison was like, acting out and having a really hard time. And my daughter Isabella comforted her as her big sister and was like, do you want me to. And like Madison calmed down and I just cried. Like, I was like, this is so beautiful. Like, I was so proud of Isabella.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's something about having kids where it. It makes you understand love and the type of love that you. I think in some ways you're incapable of realizing anyone could have loved you that way.

[Jessica Kirson]

A hundred percent. And being able to love someone else the way you wish you were loved.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Is that what you just said?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Or understanding that. That. That actually maybe your mother did love you that way kind of thing.

[Jessica Kirson]

Well, when you have kids, obviously everyone says it. Understand what your parents experience. I mean, that's for sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my bits that I was gonna work at today is so sweet. It was. My daughter has been baking lately. Cause she's watching a lot of baking. How old is she? She's nine. She's turning ten.

[Jessica Kirson]

We both have a nine year old.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. And she's so sweet. And she's been baking like cakes and muffins and she. For my special, she baked me two cakes and one was for Daddy and one was for Mike Birbiglia. And then my punchline for it was, if I could just get my wife to think of me that way.

[Jessica Kirson]

That is so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Isn't that great?

[Jessica Kirson]

I love that she baked you one for Mike Birbiglio.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know.

[Jessica Kirson]

That is so my kids say the. And do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, the crate.

[Jessica Kirson]

Like, it's great. Yeah, yeah. It's so my. I would do that on stage now. They. Oh, they say things to me that are so. Because they're so honest.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

Like Madison the other day was like, mama, you have eyelashes in your nostrils.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh my God. I'm like, are you eyelashes in your nostrils?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, they always say stuff like that. Are you a boy? I'm like, why? Cuz you never wear dresses, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You used the bit that. When. When I. When you and I were starting. We started around the same time. You used to do a thing about maybe like your nephew or your niece. And you did the voice and it killed me.

[Jessica Kirson]

Of the kid? Yeah, Yeah. I always do that voice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, yeah. Well, yeah. When I took my nephew into the bathroom when he was a kid and he's like, you have a funny looking penis. I'm like, you should see the one in my drawer. Oh, my God, that looks like a menorah. It's intense.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So funny. All right. Can you remember a time in your life when you were an inauthentic version of yourself?

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, my God. My whole life. Because I just wanted to be liked. And I didn't even know who I was. You know, as a kid, I was authentic with my friends. I was talking about this the other day. I have the most amazing friends that I grew up with, and they really saved me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're still close with them?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes. My.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So they saw you through the phases of your life?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, everything. And they really, like, we really grew up together. And I was real with them, but I think with everyone else, I wanted to be liked. I wanted to make them laugh. Like, I was afraid, you know, if they really got to know me, they wouldn't like me. All that stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the phase that you. When you look back, you cringe at?

[Jessica Kirson]

I had a very hard time in my 20s. I was just lost, and I had no idea who I was. I was like, coming out, I wouldn't accept that I was a lesbian for a very. Like, everyone else accepted it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I had a very hard time with it. For a long time, I thought there was something wrong with me. I'm not even religious at all. And I thought that something's wrong. Like, I was, you know, like, something happened at my birth.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, gosh.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Were you in denial about it? Would you say to people you weren't gay?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, I would never say I'm straight ever. Like, even when I was doing standup and not out, I would never, ever say my boyfriend or ever. That's insane. But I would always say that I'm bi because I also had difficult relationships with women. And I didn't know if I would be with a guy again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Jessica Kirson]

You know, I was like, I was with guys in high school, I mean, in college, but I was always wasted because I'm sober and I was like, in addiction. I was always drunk. So I couldn't have sex with a guy unless I was drunk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I never wanted to spend time with them. Like, if they wanted to date me, I'm like, oh, my God, will you leave Like, I don't. I'm friends with so many guys, but I didn't want to be in relationships with them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. You have that great joke in your new special about people coming up to you being like, you haven't met the right guy.

[Jessica Kirson]

I can change you. That's very common. You know what I thought? Interesting enough, women don't say that to gay men.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

I need to talk about that, because can you imagine a woman being like, I can change you. You haven't been with the right woman. I just don't think that happens a lot. But men do say that to gay women a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's like, what makes you think you can. Like, you're that special, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where's that. Where does that confidence come from? What is the most absurd thing you've ever done while drunk?

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, my God. I. This is not okay. I was very, very, very high. I wasn't drinking. I mean, there's so many things I did when I was drinking, but I was so high. And I drove at University of Maryland. Again, I was an addict, so it's not okay. But I ended up hitting the University of Maryland sign. The sign that you like when you enter.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like an 80s movie.

[Jessica Kirson]

I know. Water came. No, I hit the huge sign, and I was fine, and so were my friends, but I got four flat tires.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

And it was a student? Yes, I was a freshman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were a freshman in college, and you drove into the college sign?

[Jessica Kirson]

The huge University of Maryland sign. Not even just like a stop sign. I'm talking about the. I went up on a thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did the cops show up?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yes, yes. And I. And it was raining.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did they do breathalyzer and all that?

[Jessica Kirson]

No, you know, it wasn't. I think, because I was like a sorority girl, and my friends were in. I. I. Again, it's like something that sounds so horrible, but, like, we looked okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I. They. I think they could tell I wasn't drunk. Like, I was speaking normally. I had smoked, like, 17 bong hits.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

But. Yeah, just crazy things where I, you know, made a fool of myself a lot, but I made people laugh. So.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. This is the section of the show where we work out material. This is. Okay, this is. I just wrote this in my notebook the other day. But when I was filming the special, I was going each night to a gym near the theater just to go to the steam room and to try to get my voice ready because, you know, and so I wasn't clearing my throat. And so I walk into the steam room. I throw water on a steam catcher thing, so it'd be a ton of steam. There's all of a sudden, you can't see anything two feet in front of me. And then I hear a lot of friction. Friction. And then possibly some lube. And then I heard someone say, oh, God, yes. And then I left the steam room, and I realized, I think some people just want different things out of the steam room. They just have different goals. And this is how I write. I just wrote down a bunch of possible tags for it, which is, it was a good omen for my special. It was a happy ending before an unhappy ending.

[Jessica Kirson]

That's very funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's fun.

[Jessica Kirson]

I love it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then the other tag I wrote is, I stayed in the steam room, and my voice sounds fantastic. And I do it for the fans.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, that's very.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love it for the fans.

[Jessica Kirson]

And then, wow, I gotta go to that steam room. That's a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But that's a very male steam room thing. That's not as much a female steam room, right?

[Jessica Kirson]

No, I mean, if. If lesbians were in her steam room, they would just be like, do you feel safe if I touch your hair? Do you? I just don't want to trigger you if I. How does it feel with your shoulder being cut? Just crying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No. It's funny. I'd heard about that, of course, from my gay friends for years of like, yeah, it's the steam room, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, sure, I believe you. And it was the first time where I was like, oh, wow.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's funny to picture you in there with the two of them. Oh, gosh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God, yes.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, you could really, like, say, like, you know, even if they're like, come on, Daddy. And you're like, is someone's father.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are they having a family reunion?

[Jessica Kirson]

Like, you're clueless. Yeah, they're having a family.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, there's a family reunion. Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

It feels like a barbecue in here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I'm doing crowd work in the steam room. Is anyone selling? Celebrating a birthday.

[Jessica Kirson]

Hilarious. Where are you from?

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, so there's that, which is fun at the steam room story. And then I thought you'd enjoy this. The older I get, the more I use the phrase one day at a time. And I'm not even in Alcoholics Anonymous. Like, everything from Alcoholics Anonymous relates to my life except the alcohol.

[Jessica Kirson]

Do you know that my mom has said that everyone in the world could benefit from. From the program?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I Think it's an amazing program.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's an amazing program.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think it is.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's impressive.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, one. One minute at a time sometimes. I'm serious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, one minute at a time.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, I mean, that's the title of this episode. You just named it.

[Jessica Kirson]

You're just going through. Through something and know that it can change in five minutes. Like, it doesn't. Does not. Doesn't have to stay that way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

By the way, that's a great tag for that bit. One minute at a time. Cause a lot of times with a bit, it's like, okay. The one day at a time is really kind of the joke of it is like, that I relate to everything in aa, even though I'm not technically an alcoholic, but it is really, like, breaking down. Like, well, what's the truth underneath that? The truth underneath it is kind of every minute at a time, you're going like, wait, what? Am I gonna be okay? Is everyone gonna be okay?

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. We think things through and it's normally negative. Like, we're like, this is gonna happen. Then this is gonna. We have no idea what's going exact. You have a child.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, of course. Someone passes away, you end up getting another special. Like, we have no idea what's going to happen.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I woke up at four in the morning this morning, fully awake. Typical meeting wide eyes, wide open. No. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to do breathing exercises.

[Jessica Kirson]

This is what I do too.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And, like, breathing. And it's like breathing from my diaphragm.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yep.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, and then it's like an hour of this.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My body literally is like, nope.

[Jessica Kirson]

No, thank you. No, thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Breathing exercises countdown from 500, 500, 499. We're all gonna die.

[Jessica Kirson]

So funny. This is so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is more funny.

[Jessica Kirson]

I'm gonna die soon after you're doing the breathing exercises. I know. I really get it. I. It's. It's so. But it is one minute at a time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And, like, if I didn't live by one day at a time, I would not be okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a really deep idea.

[Jessica Kirson]

There's also that term. I don't know if you've heard it, but it's a quote. And I'm not. I'm spiritual and I believe in a higher power, but it's make plans and God laughs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. My dad always says that to me.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's so true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's like, we think all these things are gonna happen. And it's not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You wanna make God laugh. Tell him your plans.

[Jessica Kirson]

That's the quote. I said it wrong or.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sorry, everybody. Tell her your plans.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's okay, Jess.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm so sorry.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the same. No, I'm so sorry.

[Jessica Kirson]

It's okay. You just mocked me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tell her your plans. The. Do you have any bits that you're working on that are like half. Half baked premises or ideas that.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, a lot. I mean, all that therapy stuff, which is difficult because people feel bad sometimes for me, but, like, my therapist now, and my mom has always said this about putting a chair in front of me and telling someone the things that I wish I could to. An empty chair.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait, what's the advice?

[Jessica Kirson]

It's like you're. You're talking to the person as if, like, say it's an empty chair. But I have to picture, like, my father sitting there and then me confronting him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is advice. Your mom gives you everything.

[Jessica Kirson]

I've had a lot of therapists give me this advice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I've done it at times, and it's real. Like, it's. It's worked.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you've done that exercise. You put a chair. I'll try this. This. You put the chair in front of you. The person who you wish you had said something to. Maybe in my case, probably be my dad. In your case, maybe it's your dad. Like, you just say that. Do you say it out loud or in your head? Yes.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah. You can end up screaming. And really, there's a bunch of things you can do with that. But anyway, I say, like, this is so new. But I'm like, you know, just felt uncomfortable and unfamiliar. So I put things on the chair to make me feel like I put his toupee and. And his secretary.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's funny.

[Jessica Kirson]

But also, I just think this is so funny. I actually. When I go to a trauma place, I. Rotten fruit. A corned beef sandwich.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, corned beef sandwich. Some coins.

[Jessica Kirson]

Coins. A button. I actually was. I went to a trauma place a couple times to deal with trauma, to deal with stuff, work on myself. And I was given a baby. Like a fake baby doll. And I was supposed to hold it and picture it me talking to myself as a baby.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow.

[Jessica Kirson]

And at first, I couldn't do it at all. Like, I was really like, this is insane. In front of other people in the group. It was very hard for me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Jessica Kirson]

But I did end up going there. I was sobbing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were sobbing. So it did work.

[Jessica Kirson]

Because I had not. No Relationship with my inner child. And I was just like, it's okay. It's not your fault. And then I threw it against the wall and it. Yeah. Joking.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I threw it against the wall and it's in 10 pieces. And I keep it in my purse. Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

And I keep the head in my.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a. I mean, it's all that.

[Jessica Kirson]

Stuff that's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Kirson]

But it's deep. And you also have to make people in Oklahoma laugh with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, of course. That's what I. And that's why I always call, like, joke soil. It's like, it's. That's all that stuff you're describing is, like, super fertile for jokes.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because it's so kind of genuine.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And intense. And like, I think that. Yeah. Once you can get the audience to feel like it's okay because the bait, you know, the holding the baby thing, it's really interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

It wasn't. It was very uncomfortable. I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do this. And then. Let me tell you something. I was like, sobbing. I felt so bad for the kid in me who just was petrified and felt alone and scared and had to make people laugh to get feel like meaning. I felt like I had to do that to get people to like me, which is a gift now. But it was. The other thing I do is one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tag for that is like, you know, so they gave me the baby and I cut it up with scissors. And at the end of the show tonight, I'm gonna hand out the pieces of the baby, and that's why we're here tonight.

[Jessica Kirson]

Did you like the tongue?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like to turn it super dark?

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, I. Yeah, but it was really funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it was healing. It was. It was healing. Feel great.

[Jessica Kirson]

I just hold up a bag of body parts from a doll.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Kirson]

Throw them out to people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, that's great, though. I love that.

[Jessica Kirson]

I mean, the other thing that I think might help you. I mean, this. And it is. It's helped me my whole life, but my entire life, my mother told me to write letters to people and not send them. Have you ever done that? It's amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've done it as. I've done it with emails. I've never done it with letters.

[Jessica Kirson]

Yeah, you actually. Emails are emails. You actually write out a letter and then you end up burning it or burying it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Jessica Kirson]

It sounds like what. But it really. It's like you're dealing with resentments. It's program stuff, too, but you're like getting your resentment out and then letting it go. So I wrote letters to everyone and, and I read letters. The first time I was on Comedy Central, my first TV gig, I read therapeutic letters and it used to be everyone's favorite bit I did. So I'm working on new letters and this is so many years later, but I'm like, I need to read these letters again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I've done it with emails over the years. I've got that advice as well. But you gotta be careful.

[Jessica Kirson]

Did you send them to people?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I didn't send them.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, okay, good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The key to the not sending, don't put the two and. Because sometimes those things can shoot off. CC send, send, send. Oh, shit. I said that.

[Jessica Kirson]

Write it in a book. I mean, I'm not telling you, but if anyone's listening or watching that has had like major reason. It does help, like you just go off like 10 pages. It doesn't matter. Get it all out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I find that with. I write my journal for that exact reason. Yeah, I write on the thing I'm angriest about and sad.

[Jessica Kirson]

Well, that's good you're doing it. Because a lot of times I can't. I just can't go there in my head and I'm never going to confront the person, so I need to get it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so funny because sometimes I'll be in bed and Jenny will look over and I'm like writing in my journal and she'll be like, oh.

[Jessica Kirson]

She's like, who are you angry at?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Such a tell. Yeah, me writing in my journal.

[Jessica Kirson]

But that's good. You do that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, no, it's. I think it's really positive. I suggest it to everybody I'm close to.

[Jessica Kirson]

Well, this is the thing. That's why you're so funny. Because you work on yourself the best. In my opinion, the best comics work on themselves. I really believe that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The final thing we do in the show is working it out for our cause. Is there a non profit that you like to contribute to? And we will contribute and link to them in the show notes.

[Jessica Kirson]

Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, well, my daughter has heart disease. I'm very open about it and I really, I get so many messages like, oh my God, thank you for talking about. My daughter Isabella, who's a nine and a half year old, has had four open heart surgeries.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh my gosh.

[Jessica Kirson]

The first one, she was eight days old. So we knew when she was not even born yet. And we go to Columbia Presbyterian and they have an amazing Pediatric Heart Unit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[Jessica Kirson]

So you can give to the Children's Heart Foundation. That's a great organization and cause and that would be amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, so we're gonna contribute to the Children's Heart Foundation. We're gonna link to them in the show notes. And Jessica Kirsten, congratulations on your special.

[Jessica Kirson]

Thank you, Mike.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so funny. I couldn't recommend it more highly. I'm thrilled that the thousands and millions of people who have found you in the last few years. Cause it's the thing that comedians have known for years and years and years.

[Jessica Kirson]

Thank you for saying that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so great to see all of its popularity from it. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out. You can follow Jess Kirsten on Instagram at Jesse Kirsten. That's Jesse with a Y. You can watch her special I'm the Man on Hulu. I can't recommend that more highly. She has a ton of YouTube videos that are fantastic on her YouTube channel channel. You can watch this episode on my YouTube channel @Mike Birbiglia Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more soon. Check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. To be the first to know about all of my upcoming shows, there might be, I think, a couple more of those dates with Mulaney and Fred and Nick, though I'm not promising it. I. I've heard rumors of it. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Shub Sarin supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and as always, our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really helps people find the show. We have over 165 episodes at this point point and they're all free. No paywall. We've had Questlove last week we had Alana Glazer and Jim Gavigan and so many great people. Check out our back catalog and comment on Apple Podcasts, which is your favorite because if people are new to the podcast, that's a good place to start. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, Tell your enemies, Tell your hecklers. Let's say you're a comedian and you're doing. You're just doing your job, trying to make folks laugh and feel good. And someone says something very mean spirited, and you, you could stop and go, hey, you need help. You need to be seen by Jessica Kirsten's mom. But in the meantime, you could listen to this podcast called Mike Birbigli is Working it out, where a comedian works out jokes with other comedians. Maybe if you listen to that, you'll realize we're just trying to make you laugh. Now be silent and enjoy the show. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.