180. Kumail Nanjiani: Oh, Mary!, The Big Sick, and a Return to Stand-Up

Summary

Podcast Title: Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Episode: 180. Kumail Nanjiani: Oh, Mary!, The Big Sick, and a Return to Stand-Up
Release Date: August 11, 2025
Host: Mike Birbiglia
Guest: Kumail Nanjiani

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1. Introduction and Guest Background

Mike Birbiglia welcomes comedian and actor Kumail Nanjiani to the podcast, highlighting Kumail's diverse career spanning stand-up comedy, television, Broadway, and major film roles. Mike shares his excitement about the episode, mentioning Kumail's portrayal of Abraham Lincoln in the Broadway show Oh, Mary!, his special on Hulu, and their mutual experiences in the entertainment industry.

Notable Quote:

Mike (00:35): "I love talking to Kumail. What a just a naturally funny person."

2. Longstanding Friendship and Early Careers

The conversation delves into Mike and Kumail’s long-standing friendship, tracing back over two decades. They reminisce about meeting in their early years, with Mike recalling their first encounter at a show and Kumail emphasizing the longevity of their relationship.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (02:54): "It's been 24 years since I met him."

3. Stand-Up Evolution and Performing in Different Cities

Kumail discusses his transition from Chicago’s vibrant stand-up scene to the dynamic environment of New York. He reflects on how his comedic persona evolved, moving away from a nervous character influenced by Jake Johannsen to a more authentic self. Both Kumail and Mike share insights into adapting their performances to different audiences and comedic styles.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (03:46): "If something is exciting that I want to talk about on stage and I can't, then I've limited myself too much."

4. Creative Collaboration and The Big Sick

The duo explores the creation of The Big Sick, emphasizing the collaborative writing process between Kumail and his wife, Emily Gordon. Kumail shares heartfelt stories about writing the film together, highlighting how their differing perspectives enriched the narrative and deepened their understanding of each other.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (17:08): "Our experiences are completely on paper. You'd think similar, but we didn't go through the same things in any way."

5. Transitioning to Acting and Broadway

Kumail recounts his experience stepping into acting roles, particularly his role as Abraham Lincoln in Oh, Mary!. He discusses the challenges of theater versus stand-up comedy, emphasizing the importance of timing and collaboration with directors and fellow actors. Mike relates by sharing his own foray into acting and the adjustments required to adapt to live performances.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (23:07): "I didn't know what upstage and downstage meant. Eight days in, finally figured it out."

6. Personal Growth and Therapy

Both Mike and Kumail touch upon their journeys with personal growth and therapy. They discuss how addressing insecurities and vulnerabilities has influenced their comedy and personal lives. Kumail shares his perspective on embracing his true self, leading to more authentic and impactful comedic material.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (37:52): "I'm still that guy I was when I was 14. Only difference is I now like that guy I used to not like that guy."

7. Memorable Anecdotes and Industry Insights

The podcast features humorous anecdotes, including Kumail’s interactions with tech moguls like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. They share behind-the-scenes stories from Silicon Valley, illustrating the intersect between comedy and tech culture. Kumail humorously describes a mishap involving a scientific awards show and Zuckerberg’s reaction to their performance.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (55:36): "We went up and we're like, what if you had to jerk off everybody in this room?"

8. Stand-Up Material and Creative Process

Kumail and Mike discuss their approaches to developing stand-up material. Kumail explains his method of capturing spontaneous ideas and refining them through performance, while Mike shares his transition from humor based purely on funny anecdotes to incorporating deeper, more personal topics.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (41:24): "I have a bunch of jokes about not wanting to have a child, for example, with the new one, or about death with the old man in the pool."

9. Closing Thoughts and Future Collaborations

As the episode wraps up, Mike and Kumail express their mutual admiration and discuss the potential for future collaborations. They reflect on the importance of working with friends in creative endeavors and the value of trust in professional partnerships.

Notable Quote:

Mike (34:15): "I was always like, work and personal relationships are different. Work with work people, personal relationships with friends and family. And I've learned, no, work with your friends."

10. Final Reflections

Kumail concludes by sharing his satisfaction with the creative processes discussed and his enthusiasm for ongoing projects. Both hosts encourage listeners to engage with their work and support causes they’re passionate about.

Notable Quote:

Kumail (57:29): "The things that are my insecurities at 14 are still my insecurities. The things that I value in myself are still the things I value in myself."

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Conclusion:
Episode 180 of Working It Out offers an intimate glimpse into Kumail Nanjiani’s multifaceted career and personal growth, enriched by his enduring friendship with Mike Birbiglia. From navigating the complexities of stand-up comedy and acting to the collaborative creation of The Big Sick, the conversation is both insightful and entertaining. Listeners gain valuable perspectives on maintaining authenticity, fostering creative partnerships, and the continuous journey of self-discovery.

Listen to the full episode here.

Transcript

[A]

I was in this movie called Eternals.

[B]

Okay, yes.

[A]

Big Marvel movie.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it came out and it got really bad reviews and it didn't do that well and it shattered me too much. And that's when I was like, oh, I need to go to therapy to figure this out.

[B]

No kidding. What was it?

[A]

It was such. It was so. First of all, people have way bigger problems than this, you know, Much bigger.

[B]

Not everyone's in Eternals. Not everyone's an internal.

[A]

Honestly, too many people are, though.

[B]

That is the voice of the great Kumail Nanjiani. Oh, man, I love Kumail. I've wanted him to come on the working at our podcast for so long. I've known him kind of forever. I feel like we're about the same age and we met 20 plus years ago. So excited to have an in depth talk with him. He's obviously a great standup comic, but he paused that a few years ago to work as a movie star, a TV star. He's now back doing stand up. He's on Broadway. He's playing Abraham Lincoln in O Mary. He's got a new special coming out on Hulu soon. We talk about all that. So it's an awesome episode today. I just did four shows with Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen in support of John Mulaney's new tour. So much fun. We are back September 13th at Stanley park in Vancouver. That's going to be great. Tickets@berlin bigs.com and if you haven't seen it, check out the Good Life, which is on Netflix now. That is my new special. As a matter of fact, if you're on there, you can see my last four specials. You can see thank God for Jokes, the new one, the Old man of the Pool and the Good Life. So I got four specials on there right now and they do tell a bit of a story. So it's kind of cool maybe to watch them in sequence. I love talking to Kumail. What a just a naturally funny person. We talk about collaborating with our significant others. Me in the case of my wife Jenny, who is a poet, and Kumail with his wife Emily Gordon, who co wrote the film and was were nominated for an Oscar for the Big Sick, which is a film that I love. Just love, love, love. If you haven't seen it, you should see that. We talk about Kumail's early stand up days in Chicago, why he left Stand up for six years and became a movie star, how he was in Eternals Silicon Valley. He shares a couple really funny stories about meeting Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. That I did not expect. Love this conversation. One of my favorite in a while. Enjoy my conversation with the great Kumail Nanjiani. It's so wild. Cause you and I have known each other for probably 20 years.

[A]

That's the thing. I'm like. When I think I'm like, I'm at the age where people I don't think I've known that long. I've known for 20 years.

[B]

That's how I feel.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, I've known that guy that long. And you do, like. No, it's been 24 years since I met him.

[B]

I met you at Michael Showalter and Eugene Mirman's show in Union Hall. But you were immediately great. I mean, we were Both in our 20s, probably.

[A]

Yeah, I think we're about the same age. But the difference that I had was I had spent six years in Chicago doing standup, so you were great.

[B]

You were really good.

[A]

Well, when I got here and I started doing open mics, I was doing open mics with people who'd been a few months into it. I had six years of standup and confidence behind me. And when I was able to. The weird thing that happened was my Persona on stage completely changed when I got to New York.

[B]

Really?

[A]

So weirdly, all the material in Chicago I couldn't do anymore.

[B]

Cause it was like a Persona. It was like a character.

[A]

It was a character. Really. It was sort of like a really nervous guy. Because I was really nervous growing up, and I was a big fan of Jake Johansson, and so he has me, too. Sort of took that on. And then I remember specifically, I was doing a show in Chicago, and I just watched an episode of Star Trek that I really loved. And I was like, oh, too bad my Persona doesn't allow me to talk about it on stage. And then I was like, oh, that's a big. I gotta fix that. If something is exciting that I want to talk about on stage and I can't, then I've limited myself too much. And so from then, it was an act. I was like, oh, I have to be myself on stage. It was like five or six years into it that I was like, okay, I have to do that. And then when I got to New York, people, at least the alt scene was allergic to the standup delivery. You couldn't really do. You had to, like, hide your punchlines. You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, I know all about this.

[A]

It had to be like. It had to be like, oh, this just came to Me. Meanwhile, you spent hours.

[B]

I literally just thought of this on the walk to the stage from the back of the room. I just thought of this. You got to trust me.

[A]

You had to bury the punchline.

[B]

Truly.

[A]

Yeah, totally. I would never write jokes because it's lame. Cuz it's effort.

[B]

It's lame. It's effort.

[A]

Cringe.

[B]

I don't like effort. It's cringe.

[A]

That was totally the vibe here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so because of that, I was like, oh, I can't do any of that Chicago stuff.

[B]

Wow. But then that throughout the actual, like, prior.

[A]

A lot of people said that at the time. Everyone was kind of saying that throughout.

[B]

The old Vegas act, I just couldn't do it.

[A]

I would have loved to have done it, but I had six years and then I finally understood who I was on stage at that moment. At least for back then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then when I started my first, I spent two years in New York creatively. Still the most fulfilling years of my career. Cause I wrote so much. I wrote constantly. I wrote the bits I'm most proud of in those two years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's so funny because it was. I had almost the exact character pivot on stage, which is I was in D.C. and I was.

[A]

Is that what you started?

[B]

Yeah, in college.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was a Georgetown. Georgetown. I worked at the door at the DC Improv for a few years. And my character was just like a little dumber version of myself. And because I think when you're starting out, it's fun to be kind of less intelligent than yourself and insecure, et cetera. Right. And then I moved to New York and I think for the first two years, it kind of hit me like, no, I should play to the height of my intelligence.

[A]

Right. And then it becomes most important that everyone know how important, how intelligent I am. Then I think at first you're like, I'm just stupid. And then it's like, no, it's vital that you understand the depth of my intellectual.

[B]

A full 180.

[A]

Yeah, totally. Kind of.

[B]

But then weirdly, like, that's. That hung with me like I was on Marin recently. And he still holds on to like the per the Mike Persona when he moved to New York.

[A]

So you're saying Marc Maron holds on to stuff from the past. Is this.

[B]

No, I don't. This is what people say. I don't know. I don't know anything about it.

[A]

Be careful.

[B]

No, I didn't. I didn't say this.

[A]

I love Mark, but. But we've had our times in the you know, we've had. But I.

[B]

He's what we call in Italian culture a character.

[A]

He really is. I mean, there's no talk about no difference on stage, off stage.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

He's Mark the whole time.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It's pure. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I wouldn't very, very. You know, I think Mark specifically right now is a great advocate for good standup comedy.

[B]

No, he is.

[A]

Because I think we're in an age where a lot of standup is becoming sort of similar, talking about the same things, and Mark is really out there being like, this is what. You know, there's good comedy. And he's kind of trashing the stuff he doesn't like. True. And, you know, doing a lot of standup in LA recently. Cause I stopped doing standup for, like, seven years. I didn't do standup.

[B]

Oh, we're gonna talk about that.

[A]

So when I started up again, I was a little bummed out. Going to the club, seeing, like, all these guys and being like, this is what comedy is like. Back in my was about being original and doing something nobody else is doing.

[B]

In 1700s.

[A]

In the 1700s. Yeah, it was.

[B]

We didn't have.

[A]

We had to project, you know, you had to breathe from the diaphragm. Yeah.

[B]

No, that's interesting. So you thought that the newer crop of comedy was not as exciting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Were you at clubs or alt rooms? Clubs, clubs.

[A]

The alt scene in LA is not super hot right now. But to really, really quickly say, when I've toured and I've sort of done, like, I'll just drop in and do, like, smaller alt rooms in other cities and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, oh, standup is fine. These people are hilarious.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think there is a reaction to sort of the dominant standup, which right now is, you know, kind of like bro y and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Outward facing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a while, comedy was really about, like, introspection. And now I think it's a little more bro y. But there's.

[B]

What do you mean by outward facing?

[A]

It's not really. I find stuff that's particularly vulnerable. You're not revealing yourself on stage. But I think there was a while where that was really valued.

[B]

Right. You're mocking outward versus looking within.

[A]

That's right. And obviously comedy's a mix of it, you know, But I feel like when Louis CK was at his height, he made this thing where everybody was talking about their deepest, darkest feelings inside. And now I think it's more, like I said, about mocking things outside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is, you know, to Me less. It's less interesting.

[B]

You had the thing where you became so big so fast, and then you became a movie star, and then, like, you were sort of gone. And it's like, did you feel that and did you feel that about other people when you were coming up where they would kind of go into the ether and never return?

[A]

Well, the people that I knew early on who really hit it big from, like, my scene in Chicago, the ones who, like, really hit it, seemingly not overnight, but kind of was like, Hannibal exploded while he lived in Chicago. I think he already got really big.

[B]

Yeah, because he did.

[A]

Aspinall, Montreal, one of them.

[B]

I remember when Hannibal showed up in New York and he was immediately great.

[A]

Yeah. And those guys obviously kept doing stand up.

[B]

And Pete Holmes was in that scene, right? Pete Holmes, he's never gotten good. He's a good guy.

[A]

At some point, he should learn.

[B]

He's gonna be good, do well on stage. Oh, I think he will. It's gonna take some time.

[A]

I think he just.

[B]

Yeah, everyone, I think, is a expression. Everyone in their own time. Yeah, it takes, you know, it takes. It takes. How long it takes for them, what.

[A]

Been, what, 25 years? Any second now?

[B]

Yeah, it's 30. For him, it might be 40 years.

[A]

But when you get there, we'll be like, you're not gonna believe it. Pete's good now.

[B]

Yeah, Pete's great.

[A]

Pete does well on stage now. Still one of the hardest people to follow. Well, like, when I went back, Pete.

[B]

Is hard to follow.

[A]

I gotta go up after Pete.

[B]

I have to follow. This fucking camp counselor meets youth pastor.

[A]

Who will bully audiences into laughing. They don't laugh. He'll be like, you should be laughing. The joy inside you is dead.

[B]

You're typing. Laughing.

[A]

What is wrong with.

[B]

No, it's you.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, he does that.

[A]

And it works.

[B]

No, it works. He does an impression of you that you don't like. Right.

[A]

I don't think it sounds like me. But then other people's impression of me sounds like Pete's impression of me. So I'm like, all right. I guess people are experiencing me differently than I experience myself.

[B]

What would be a good impression of you?

[A]

There was a guy who. Do you know Drew Michael? He's a vice. Stand up. He doesn't do it on stage, but he does an impression of me that I'm like, that's really pretty good.

[B]

What is he pulling out? What is he accentuating?

[A]

He's getting very into nerd stuff.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like Lord of the Rings, comic book.

[B]

Lord of the Rings. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[A]

Pointing out, like, logical inconsistencies in movies and TV shows, which was sort of what I did for many years. I didn't realize that's what I was doing, but a lot of my bits were about movies and TV shows I liked.

[B]

One of the first things I thought when I saw you, whatever it was 17 years ago at Union hall, was like, oh, this isn't Kumail's first language.

[A]

Yeah, no, first language was Urdu. But now, I mean, you know, I think I'm truly bilingual in that.

[B]

Do you think in Urdu or English? Both. You think in both?

[A]

I do. I think the base, the foundation is still Urdu.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because. And I know that because if I'm really tired, if I'm speaking to. Sometimes Urdu will. I'll say Urdu instead. When I wake up first thing in the morning, I'll start speaking in Urdu and then be like, oh, right, this one doesn't understand it. Although she's been learning for a few years now.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Emily has. So. Yeah, but. So I think that's the base. But I truly think I. I dream and think in both languages. It's. It's not. I'm not translating anymore.

[B]

I always think about it, though, because you're. You're 18, you move here to go to college, go to Grinnell, and then you do stand up in college or you go to Chicago.

[A]

Only my senior year. Senior year, I did, like, one set each semester. Guess how much time I did my first time? It's first stand up, first set ever.

[B]

Long or short? Come on.

[A]

Long.

[B]

Yeah, that was gonna be my guess.

[A]

But it wasn't just me. It was a bunch of people.

[B]

You did like a half hour.

[A]

I did 30 minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My first time on stage.

[B]

Come on, I've seen it all. No, I know. I know what you mean. I actually find that that is one of the things about when people are really nervous about doing standup. Like, for the first time, they're like, I'm not gonna have enough time. And then they fucking run the light and do a half hour.

[A]

Right. Oh, you've seen that.

[B]

It's a classic. Yeah, it's a classic.

[A]

They also don'.

[B]

Have enough time thing means they're about to run the light for a while.

[A]

That's so funny. That's because that's what Pete always says. I don't have anything to talk about.

[B]

And then. Yeah, well, he still does it. In fairness.

[A]

He doesn't, of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're also, like, with Pete said before, you not only he's gonna murder he's also gonna go over and like Apatow.

[B]

To run the light. Oh, Jed, I don't have anything to talk about. Forty minutes later, still on stage.

[A]

I think Judd loves Stand up more than anything else. Oh, he loves the biggest movie directors in the world. I think for him, Stand up is like the highest.

[B]

He's coming on here again next week for like fourth or fifth time. He. He loves talking about Stand up. He loves doing the stand up. It's his first love.

[A]

He loves Joe. Yeah.

[B]

How did you end up making the Big Sick with Judd? That feels like a huge, life changing thing.

[A]

It was. I mean, it's.

[B]

To this day.

[A]

To this day, he became a movie.

[B]

Star and a Oscar nominated screenwriter.

[A]

It happened because a few years before, I would guess it was 2013 or something, or 2014, we were premiering Silicon Valley at South by southwest, which was 2013, I think, and Jed was there premiering Girls. Like, we started at the same time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I met Lena Dunham there and Jed was there, and I'd never met him. And Pete was it Pete's podcast? Pete was doing his podcast, I think, and he had a bunch of guests on. It was me, Judd, Todd Barry, Chris Gethard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Judd and I got along great and we kind of hung out that weekend and we had a great time. And then that Monday, I got a call from my manager, was like, hey, Judd wants to know if you have any ideas. And I was like, whoa. I mean, you know, this is the biggest comedy director in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, what? So I went in and I had a meeting and I had all these ideas. I remember when I've talked about this, one of the ideas was about a ghost witch. It's a witch who dies, and then it's the ghost of the witch. And he was like, do you have any other ideas? And then I was like, well, you know, my girlfriend was in a coma right. When we first started dating. And then we, like, you know, fell in love while she. I fell in love with her while she was in a coma. And he's like, yeah, that's the story. Do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's how it happened. That's how we started. And I first started writing it on my own. And then I went to Emily and I was like, this is both our story. Yeah, I need you to do. We need to do this together.

[B]

Had you done anything with Emily, like, creatively?

[A]

That's a good question. We just. We hosted a video game podcast together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I guess is creative. So. But we'd never written together, which to me is the most intimate form of working together. Or it might be a director actor relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Might be the most intimate, creative way of working together. But writing together, you're like. People are seeing inside your brain for sure.

[B]

Did you have to bring up things with her in the writing process where you're like, oh, I don't even wanna bring this up. I don't wanna say how I felt about this.

[A]

Well, you just write it and then you send it. Wait to see what happens. But it was interesting. Cause I'd written the pages from my perspective. And then she reads it and then she rewrites it from her perspective. So truly, in writing, the Big Sick was the first time we understood what it was like for the other person to go through it. Because our experiences are very different. Like when she's in the coma, when she's, you know, she's in a coma for eight days, we are absolutely miserable. Right. It's the worst thing. We don't know if she's ever going to come out. You know, it's like. It's like. It's like bad. Every day is bad. Right. She's not there for that. When she wakes up, she's miserable. Tubed down her throat. She can't talk. They have to tie her down. Otherwise she pulls it out, miserable. And we're elated because we're like, oh, she's out. She's gonna be fine.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

So our experiences are completely on paper. You'd think similar, but we didn't go through the same things in any way. Even the timing was different. So that stuff, you know, understanding. And also just understanding what it was like for her to have, like, your body betray you, you know, really didn't understand any of that until we started writing the Big Sick. Still trying to understand, really. Yeah. I feel like our sort of relationship patterns in some ways were born from that experience. And we're still sort of trying to, in some ways, get out of those canals. You know what I mean?

[B]

Gosh. Yeah. Jenny and I wrote a special and probably a show I did called the New One about having our child and how I never want to have a child. And then we did have a child. And how all the reasons I was right and wrong ultimately. And. Yeah, it's a level of deepness that is somehow even closer than marriage and dangerous because, like, you end up crossing lines of. You don't have to tell your wife or husband everything.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's like you're riding with them and you kind of are.

[A]

You really are. It's a new level of vulnerability that's very scary, but I think ultimately beneficial to a relationship. I do think, as I've started being just more open with her about everything, about not just stuff about us, but also, like, you know, I'm starting this new job, and I'm kind of scared I'm not good enough to do it. Like, just saying that out loud to her, it's just made us closer. What you just brought up, I don't know why it made me think of this, but I think of us in many ways as having, like, opposite careers or opposite approaches to our careers in that you were like, I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna write my own stuff. Control it, do it. You've made a couple of great movies. You've done all these shows. You totally were like, I'm not gonna go into the machine. I wanna do my own things. And I kind of went the other way and did go into the machine. And I am now seeing I have no regrets, but I do now want to prioritize doing things the way you do them, which is I'm a writer, too, and I feel like I'm only using one part of my skill set.

[B]

Right. You want to exit the machine.

[A]

I want to at least be able to control more of the machine if I'm going to be in the machine. So now I want to, like, there's a movie I want to direct, a small movie I want to direct.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to talk to you about.

[B]

Directing at some point. Yeah.

[A]

Emily and I started a production company that we're now trying to, like, make our own stuff. I just got sort of dazzled by, you know, people wanting to cast you and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

And it's great, but you're just at the mercy of other people's mistakes. And I want to be at the mercy of my own mistakes. Foreign.

[B]

It out comes From Rula talked a lot about therapy on this show before.

[A]

Big advocate of it.

[B]

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[A]

It's so funny.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's really hilarious. And I, I, I'm also friends with Hannah Solo, who is the understudy for Cole.

[A]

I've been working with her. Last week I'm in rehearsal. This is my second week of rehearsal. She's phenomenal.

[B]

She's hilarious. And Cole is obviously brilliant. And it's, it just seems like good energy. The whole cast and crew, it's good vibes. Michael Lavoy and Carly are producing. Have produced a bunch of my shows through the years.

[A]

I met, I don't know them, but I met them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really good vibes.

[B]

Yeah. That's a fun show to jump on board of.

[A]

I've never done a play in my life.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Not even high school, so they have to show you the nuts and bolts of it.

[A]

I didn't know what upstage and downstage meant.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Still not upstage is further away from the audience.

[B]

Correct. Yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding.

[A]

Yeah, There we go. Eight days in, finally figured it out. It's really interesting because many things about it are. And it's similar enough to screen acting that the differences are really confusing. One, we're going into a show that's already going. So in some ways it's not like a collaborative experience. In some ways it's like you say this line here, then you go here and you say this line here. And in the beginning, that first day, I was so overwhelmed. Cause I'd never worked with like that where you're usually like working with other actors. Director and directors have ideas. Like, you say that there, but you're like, actually, I think I would be on the move. And they're like, okay, let's try that. This is not that. Now that I've been doing it I now understand the thinking behind all that. I understand why I'm saying this here. Then I walk here and say this. It makes sense. But in the beginning, the other thing is, the way I've done comedy has always been, hey, instead of this, can I say it like this? And you have to be word perfect on this. You can't. So for me, that's a. A. That. That was a big adjustment, especially with.

[B]

The pacing of this comedy. Yeah, it's. It's. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And if. If you miss it, it probably has this weird chain reaction downstream of someone else's line having the wrong tempo.

[A]

It is like. Yeah, it's like 300 people, like, walking across each other, like, at the perfect time.

[B]

It's almost like a British farce. It is. It has like a. It has, like a really specific tempo.

[A]

And they keep saying, you do not hold for laughs. You plow through.

[B]

Oh, is that what it is? That's interesting.

[A]

Said the line, said the line, said the line. There are two moments where they said, you hold for a laugh. Otherwise, no kidding. Go, go, go, go, go, go. And I think they say that because when you're there, I still haven't done the show yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Naturally, you'll have the instinct to hold a little bit for the laugh. I assume that's fine. They just don't want you to, like, really live in it and milk it the way that I do when I'm doing stand up. You know, you sort of, like, let the laugh go, and then you. You don't, like, let it go to zero, but you kind of, like, ride that wave for a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, it's. What if you just ignored them and then the show just starts running? 2 and a half hours.

[A]

I'm just improvising.

[B]

Oh, it's the Kumail edition of Omari.

[A]

I think we'll. I think I'll be gone. But I'm really, really loving the process of rehearsing like this because, well, there's two things. One, the worst thing about filming is always you do the scene. You're on your way home, and you're like, ah, shit. Should have done it like that. Yeah, theater, you get to do it. Theater, you get to go home and be like, you know what? I'm gonna try it that way tomorrow. Yeah, really? That has been very exciting. And working with, you know, the directors, it's been really, really, really fun. The other thing is, for me, when I'm, like, doing standup or doing acting, I don't think about comedy. In terms of how I deliver it or timing, I just have to sort of really shut my brain and go on instinct. So before I say it, I don't know how it's gonna come out. And that's the way that I have to do it. That's the only way I've learned to trust myself. And it works for me. So if I'm doing. Preparing for a movie, I'll prepare everything else. I don't prepare the comedy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I just go, we'll see what happens. Because that's what works for me here. It's different. Like you said, it's da, da, da, da, da, da, da. So it's gotta, like, really hit it the way that you hit it every single night. It's gotta be the same. And watching other people, like, I'm working with Jinx Monsoon and Jen Harris, who've done a lot of theater and are absolutely hilarious, but still seeing them dial in moments, not mathematically. Cause that makes it sound soulless, but with some sort of intellectual component to it. I always think of comedy delivery as having zero intellectual component to it. Seeing them do that has been really interesting. And for the first time, I'm understanding, like, oh, you could do the same joke the same way with the same timing and have it be as hilarious every time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For me, the instinct is to, like, try and do it a little differently every time. You know, at least on set.

[B]

Are you studying up on Lincoln? Are you reading? You should read the book, at least from a few years ago.

[A]

This version of Lincoln's more like Richard Nixon, if anything, who's, like, sort of, like, worked up, angry and sweaty and hates himself. That's true. All that kind of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like that. So do you think about timing?

[B]

No.

[A]

When you're doing it?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Right.

[B]

No. As a matter of fact, that's what I was. I was kind of getting at when I was saying, like, when I first saw you do stand up, I was like, wow, this is his second language. That's so shocking, because I would think, like, the natural timing of your first language would be the thing that you were essentially studying subconsciously your whole life to get a rhythm. And then you're in English, and it's like, how do you have timing in English?

[A]

I wonder. I've never thought about that. Is comedy timing different in Urdu? In English? I come from a very funny family. Like, my. My parents are very funny.

[B]

Yeah. There must be crossover.

[A]

There's gotta be in the timing. There's gotta. It's Gotta be similarities. Cause it's all about surprise. And I bet it's similar. It would helped me, I think, to sort of get a little bit. I guess this is a little bit esoteric, a little vague. The structure of the language, the sentences, is so different. Like, Urdu is left to right. English is. No, right to left. English is left to right.

[B]

Sorry, I have to always correct you on your Urdu.

[A]

Urdu is right to left. And then, you know, the way we put verbs and subjects is different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I think that makes you generally kind of approach things a little differently, too, where you could sort of see, like, different ways to approach a thing, because, you know, there are different ways to structure a thought.

[B]

This is called the slow round. Who are you jealous of?

[A]

Am I now? Who am I jealous of? Seth Rogen. I'm jealous of him.

[B]

Seth Rogen's. Yeah, he's doing great work.

[A]

I think Seth has done what he. Seth and Evan both have done what they wanted to do their entire careers. They went into the machine for a second and then realized, no, that's not how we do best. He's created his own work. He's gotten, like, an infrastructure. And I really look at his career, and I've seen him get better as an actor as well.

[B]

He's a really good actor as a.

[A]

Better as a writer. And so I would say I'm jealous of what he also.

[B]

I actually. And to their credit, they made that show in the system, but with full willingness to blow up their own careers. Yeah, I feel like sometimes people forget that too. Like, you can't go so hard at an industry and expect people to be, like, way to go. You've really nailed us, like, over and over again. And expect people to be like, great.

[A]

Using specific stories that. Where the people know this is based on me. And then they talked about it in interviews. Oh, that's based on that guy. Also, this is one of the first time they've done it. They took on North Korea, if you remember.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Oh, my God. And led to a hack of Sony and led to, like, the head of Sony getting fired. So that's what these guys, they're at.

[B]

Like south park level satire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, this next question is, did your life go how you expected it to go?

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

I mean, how could you?

[A]

I mean, how could I? Yeah. I really think if there are all the parallel universes, this is the only one where I'm successful. Like, I think. I think things just lined up just right, you know? Like, I know exactly the right place. Right Time thing for every single step that led to the next thing. Yeah, I know. Like, oh, I got lucky because I was here at this time. And then they needed this. And then I got lucky because this, it just sort of worked out.

[B]

But that can't be true. I mean, like, is there a through line too, at each step of the way, something you did or an attitude you had or, like, an approach that you feel like put you into the next wrong?

[A]

I really think more than anything, whenever people ask you for acting advice, I say, be nice to everybody and get to work on time and learn your lines. So I really think it was just that I was, like, a good person to work with. I learned that. I think I had my office job in Chicago when I was doing stand up at night. I had my office job that I was terrible at.

[B]

Yeah, I've had those.

[A]

But I was nice to everybody, and everyone around me kept getting fired in my department. Everybody else would get fired, but I wouldn't. And it's because people liked me. Those other people were better at their jobs. Yeah, they fired them. They kept me just. Cause I was like, nice. And so I think that's the thing, is that I work hard and that I'm, like, good to work with. I think that led to everything. But I would say all of my stuff leads back to, I would say, Portlandia. Like, I got so many breaks from doing the first season of that show.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God, you were so funny on that show.

[A]

It was so fun. And I realized, oh, you could do comedy like this. It could work and just be fun.

[B]

Yeah. That show was, like, explosive when it came out. It was like, oh, it was that. It was. You can do it like this.

[A]

Yeah. It was sketched like we had never seen it before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that happened because this is how lucky I was. When I first moved to New York, Colbert needed. They needed, like, a brown guy for a sketch. And so this guy, one of the writers had done stand up with, he's like, can you come do this one little sketch? So I did this sketch and went, well, they had me back a couple times. I, like, played this character. And then a couple of years later, I was in Brooklyn going down to the subway, and I ran into the director of Colbert and she was like, hey, I'm working on another show. Do you want to come do it? I was like, yeah, of course. The next day I get an email about Portlandia. I was already doing Bumber Shoot.

[B]

Yeah. So I was like, okay, I can just drive. Seattle. Yes.

[A]

Festival in Seattle. I was like, I can just drive down next day, do it. I shot that scene for like two hours. Truly, she thought of me because she saw me walking down the subway stairs.

[B]

Wild.

[A]

And then that sketch led to every job I've had. Like that. That little 10 minutes get changed my life.

[B]

That's a case for living in proximity to other comedians and creators.

[A]

I think that's the thing. I was always like, work and personal relationships are different. Work with work people, personal relationships with friends and family. And I've learned, no, work with your friends. It's so stupid that I for years didn't want to do that. Now I see people like Rob. His name's Rob Mack now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who does Always sunny.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Always works with his friends. James Gunn always works with his friends and family. And they have a lovely time because they trust these people.

[B]

Why don't you work with Pete Holmes?

[A]

I said friends. I said lovely people.

[B]

What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?

[A]

Actually, Pete gave me this advice when we first. There he is. When I first was moving to New York, he was. And this is not something I'm necessarily good at in this work. He's like, you can never compare yourself to other people. He's like, I've seen talented people get eaten from the inside. Cause they're like, why I should have that? Why does that guy have that? And he named a very specific person who we know, who's a very funny comedian. And he's like, I've seen it make him bitter. And so that's the one thing that when I first moved here, I was like, all right, my. I'm only comparing myself to myself and to nobody else.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's still, you know, it's still hard to do, but it is a good, like, sort of guiding star.

[B]

Yeah. I always think about it in relation or try to think about it in relation to, like, I can't compare my thing that I just started to what someone else already finished.

[A]

That's very hard. It's hard where you're like, how are you so good? And this is not good.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What nicknames have you been given that were particularly good or bad?

[A]

Well, so these will be Urdu based. So in high school, nanga. The word nanga means naked. And the bullies in high school called me Nanga Johnny. And Johnny means love. And I really, really, really hated that.

[B]

Really.

[A]

And up until recently on Wikipedia, you know, under aliases, they would say Kumail Nangajani, because one of these fuckers had gone in and, like, edited Wikipedia.

[B]

That is hilarious.

[A]

I think it's gone now. I haven't been getting trolled by your.

[B]

High school bullies as a grown up. Yeah, dude, that's crazy.

[A]

You know, that's the thing I realized. I was like. You know, all through my 20s and 30s, I was like. I was very social. I was going out, I was like, I'm cool. You know, whatever. And then I real. I was like, I'm so different from the way I used to be. And now in my 40s, I'm like, I'm the same person I was when I was 14.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, I'm still that guy. Only difference is I now like that guy I used to not like that guy. That's the only difference. And in my 20s and 30s, I tried to be a different person. And now, like, no, this is who I've always been.

[B]

How'd you arrive at that?

[A]

It was pretty recent. It was earlier this year, where I think doing a lot of therapy and stuff and just being like, when will I be rid of these fucking problems? I'm like, why do I still feel like this on the inside? And you're trying to hide it from people, and you realize, like, oh, when I was 14, I was worried about these things, and now I'm 47, and I'm worried about these things. I was like, that's just who I am. I guess that's just what it is. And instead of fighting it, I just have to acknowledge it and deal with it the best I can.

[B]

And.

[A]

And the. The things that are my insecurities at 14 are still my insecurities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Things that I value in myself are still the things I value in myself. The things that I value in other people. Same.

[B]

Well, you've won the slow round.

[A]

Is that how it goes?

[B]

I mean, that's a really good answer. I mean, that's as good an answer as I've heard.

[A]

Oh, that's better than Pete's answer.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Pete is. I mean, we keep having him back on the show, but it's only out of sadness and support for working it out comes from Quince. You know, when a new shirt becomes your go to. That's what happened when I picked up a few new things from Quince. They are the first things I reach for in my closet. They're lightweight and comfortable. I got a really comfortable European linen, relaxed shirt. I love it. Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to? Quince has the good stuff. High Quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather. All at prices that make sense. The best part about Quince is everything is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you the luxury pieces without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. And premium fabrics and finishes. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples. From quince. Go to quince.com burbigs for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com burbigs to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com burbigs support for working it out comes from Mint Mobile. It is summertime. Let's go over your guest list for your big summer barbecue. Friends, family, neighbors, your old wireless bill. No way. Not invited. Get out of here. Old wireless bill. Don't let your old expensive wireless bill crash your summer party. Switch to Mint Mobile. Save some cash. With Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.comperbigs that's mintmobile.comperbigs upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to 15 bucks a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Okay, so this is a section. It's the working it out material section. I'm at this odd stage right now. I just released a special. Yes. And so I'm figuring out what, like, I don't know what I'm going to talk about, so to speak. And so I have like a lot of like odds and ends.

[A]

So let me ask you this. This is an interesting thing because obviously you do these shows that are like, about a certain thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you get at that? Like, are you at this point in between shows just gathering stuff and hoping a picture emerges? Or are you going the other way and trying to figure out what is the thing in your life that's like the thing to tackle next?

[B]

Yeah. So I would describe it as when you do stand up, as long as you and I have done it, your brain starts to think in setups and punchlines.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I'm just jotting down whenever they come into my head, because they do. On the subway, you know, home from the comedy cell or whatever. I'm just jotting stuff down. And then I try the stuff that makes me laugh. I put on stage and I see what's working. And then over time, I start to be like, oh, okay, I have a bunch of jokes about not wanting to have a child, for example, with the new one, or. Or about death with the old man in the pool. Or stuff with my dad when he had a stroke. And that's what the good life ended up being about it'. And it's like, once I realize if there's an intersection of what I think is funny and the thing that just keeps coming up over and over again, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna explore that.

[A]

I think that's the really only gauge of what to chase is this is the thing that keeps coming up. I gotta talk about this. I gotta get this out to me. Really, the thing that changed how I approach standup was. I don't know if Bill Hicks said it or Doug Stanhope said it. They're like, when you first start off, you're talking about things that are funny, and then later you think you talk about things you want to talk about and make them funny. And that's like a big, oh, big take.

[B]

That's an interesting take.

[A]

Instead of just like, oh, this is a funny thing that happened. It's like I wondered. So, like, in the new special, I don't have kids. I have a cat that I love very much.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know all about it.

[A]

And she her not it.

[B]

Oh, I'll say it though.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She and I have a close relationship. She's fine with me saying it.

[A]

She got. She was, you know, she was sick. And I was like, this is important to me. This really shook me. I want to be able to talk about it on stage. And that took some doing to be like, I'm going to talk about my cat's heart condition on stage and Write like a 7 minute bit on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So give me some odds and ends.

[B]

I'll give you some answer then. So I have this thing about how my friend, like last year, a friend of mine. Oh, well, the premise of this one bit I've been doing is about how when you're married, you're able to communicate so much with so few words. Yeah. I go, last year a friend of mine was like, I want to go skydiving. For my birthday. I was like, that sounds amazing. And I went home to Jenny and I relayed this conversation to her, and she goes, you going to do that? And that's when I realized I wasn't going to do that. I go. I said, no way. Why would I want to do an activity that's so dangerous yet so fun?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because ultimately, I'm more afraid of my wife's judgment of me than I am of jumping out of an airplane at 9,000ft. Because both activities have some element of danger, but at the end of one of them, you get to die.

[A]

Yeah, that's great.

[B]

So I've been doing that. It's been good. It's been good. But I'm trying, you know, part of it is I'm trying to figure out, like, what. What's under that? It's like, okay, that's the joke. Well, what's under the joke?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's sort of like you're, like, still, in a way, you're trying to impress your wife in a way. You're still trying to, like, you still want to be, like to her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The person that you want to be to her.

[B]

I think that's right. But it is like, yeah. A lot of times it's like, to your question, like, how do you arrive at the shows? It's like, okay, you have that joke, and the joke is funny. And it's like, okay, well, what's under that? And like, you were saying, like, yeah, you're still trying to impress your wife. Yeah. But also, like, you're afraid of your significant other in some. In some way. Like, I feel like.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That I feel like if I could crack, that I could really have a show. Because a lot of times, especially in therapy culture, and I'm in therapy and I evaluate it, but there is this sense sometimes of we're not afraid of our significant. You shouldn't be afraid of our significant other. It's like, yeah, but we just are. Yeah.

[A]

And they know. Yeah, they know it all.

[B]

They got all the stuff.

[A]

They got all the stuff.

[B]

They got all the compromat.

[A]

I mean, that's. They got all the compliment. They got your P tapes, man. They got the flight logs.

[B]

Yeah. To be clear, they do not have the flight logs. Just to be clear, just to clarify, since there are no laws to be had, since there's a lot of them.

[A]

Because they do not exist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's trust. I mean, that's what you're getting at, right? That's what trust is. Trust is, you know, all my Shit. This is all my stuff. Deepest, darkest.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Emily and I talk about it like our we. And maybe this came from the conversation we were talking about. You'll know what I'm talking about. Like my little kid, we talk about like, what's your little kid's thing? That's like the thing that is most hurtful to you, that is most painful to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we each know what our little kid is.

[B]

When you're your 14 year old self, what is the most hurtful?

[A]

What is the thing that gets to your bones?

[B]

So you talk about that with Emily.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

We do. And then I think it's trust. You know, it's like, I'm not saying that's necessarily funny, but it is. I think ultimately you have to trust that this person is not going to choose one day to just fucking maul you with all the ammunition they have on you. Right. That's what a marriage is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have that and then I have a joke sometimes I follow it with where I go, Jenny doesn't love that joke because she doesn't like it when I evoke my own death.

[A]

Which.

[B]

Is true and sweet. And I go, but it's a little hypocritical because she seems to enjoy my presence most when I'm doing activities that are as though I'm not alive. Like when I'm not moving or speaking and my heart rate is low. It is so hot for her when I'm reading, it's like, ah, you know what I mean? Like when I'm taking a nap, I go, if I died, she would be upset for sure. But if I'm being completely honest, for the first five minutes after she found my, my body, she'd be like, this is nice. It's quiet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She'd drop, she'd do wordle on her phone. Yeah, I could do my thing.

[A]

Yeah, five minutes. Yeah, that's really funny.

[B]

And then I had this thing, I go, you know, the detective would come over and be like, hey, we noticed a couple things on timeline.

[A]

We're not saying this was murder because it clearly wasn't. Yes, it's a heart thing that happened.

[B]

Yeah. However.

[A]

However, we have conclusive evidence. You found him and didn' call anybody for 25 minutes.

[B]

That's right, that's right. We saw you do Wordle on your phone.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we saw, we saw that. You watched your shows.

[B]

You watched your shows. Yeah, so. And then at the end of that I go, you know, the detective would be like, we noticed you were on your phone. And she'd be like, yeah, it calms me down. He's like, no, I'm only asking if it's me. And the guys had a hard time with the word today. Yeah, we always think of fluff as a proper noun, like marshmallow fluff, and not the verb form. To fluff, to be fluffy. Plus, it has three Fs out of five letters. What are the odds that once you guess one F, two of the other four squares would also be F? And then they'd have a moment together, and he'd be like, what are you doing later? And she'd be like, today's a hard day. My husband just died. And then. And he'd be like, oh, I'm so professional. And she'd be like, tomorrow's fine.

[A]

You know, Tomorrow's fine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. Which is another, like. And that's another, like, what's under the joke? Kind of thing, which is the. I think, like, a broader discussion of, like, that whole thing of. Sometimes people have this thing where they go like, oh, if I die, you should see someone else, or whatever. But then it's like, how soon?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you know, that's. This gets too dark, so I'm not gonna talk about it. But that is something that's been, like, in our conversation. What's it called? Rolodex is how long after someone passes away is it okay for them to date somebody else?

[B]

Do you have any bits you're working on that are, like, half. Half complete or premises?

[A]

We could Talk about last 15 minutes of my standup set.

[B]

Oh, are you serious? Can we talk about this, by the way?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

For sure. What is the. Yeah, what is it?

[A]

I talk about how I was in this movie that was like, a big movie, and it came out right after Covid. So I had a year and a half at home to just be like, oh, when this thing comes out, you know, when this. And it came out and it got really bad reviews and didn't do that well, and it, like, shattered me too much. And that's when I, like. I was like, oh, I need to, like, go to therapy to figure this out.

[B]

No kidding. What was.

[A]

Well, it was. It was if people. I mean, it's a movie called Eternals.

[B]

Okay. Yes.

[A]

Big Marvel movie.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I was like, oh, this is gonna be my job for the next 10 years.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You sign on. I sign on for six movies. You know, I sign on for a video game. I signed on for a theme park ride. They make you sign up for all this stuff.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

And so you're like, oh, this is the next 10 years of my life. So I'll be doing, you know, Marvel movies every year. And then in between, I'll do like my own little things, whatever I want to do. And. And then it. None of that happened. And. But. But for me, what really hit me was just realizing too much of my self esteem is tied up in other people's reaction to my work. Gotta figure it was such. It was so. First of all, people have way bigger problems than this, you know, Much bigger.

[B]

Not everyone's in eternals.

[A]

Not everyone's in eternals, Honestly. Too many people are, though.

[B]

There were a few too many people.

[A]

There were a few too many people in eternals. The reviews are to be believed. I love the movie. I'm very proud of the movie. But here's the list of people who I think should not have been in the movie.

[B]

Joking.

[A]

You're not gonna get that from me. So anyway, that's like the last 15 minutes of my set. Now I talk about all that.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And it's been really. It's been really great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I didn't do stand up for so long and then I started up again. I did it, now I recorded it. It's gonna be out on Hulu in December. Since then, I haven't really. There is, you know, I'll tell you this one joke. I felt it's in my special, but it's one that would not have been in my special if I'd recorded it two weeks later. You know, I mean, you do these shows, so it's different for you. For me, I had the structure of the show and I was like, I like this idea, but I've never been able to get to figure it out. You know, sometimes you write a bit that does well for three weeks and then it stops doing well. Oh yeah, I recorded it right at the tail end of that. So it did well. I didn't even do it my first show. The second show, the director, Bill Benz, who's amazing, by the way, was like, hey, do that joke. I was like, okay, I'll do it. And then it did. Well, it's in the show. I like the idea of it. The idea of it is basically I talk about having anxiety. And the reason we have anxiety is cause our bodies haven't evolved appropriate defense mechanisms. Like still, you know, you get nervous, you start sweating, your heart's going. That's so you could run away from a fucking Lion. Like, that's what the purpose of that is. But now it's just. Cause like, you're laying in bed like, oh, I said something shitty to that person at that party, or they're gonna have taken it wrong. And I'm laying in bed vibrating. Cause my body is like, go find a tree to climb. You're being chased by a lion and you're just like, I just wanna. It's like, I'll make your. I'll make sure you grind your teeth all night.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We'll visit to a judgmental dentist. Be the solution to your problems.

[B]

Like, no.

[A]

Like, I have a new job. I hope my co workers like me. I hope they don't realize I'm full of shit. And your body's like, got it. I'll make sure you don't poop for a week. It really is true. That's why we have these reactions to it.

[B]

It's cause these animal. We don't have earlier versions of ourselves. Yeah.

[A]

We got too smart too quickly. I know, but I mean, not that we're super smart, but, you know, we transcend animalness in some ways and not in others.

[B]

One last thing is. When you were on Silicon Valley, did you ever meet, like, tech people who.

[A]

Yes. You were like, I've met all these people.

[B]

Like, you met Elon.

[A]

I've met Elon.

[B]

What was it like?

[A]

You know, we didn't hang out or anything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But did he like the show?

[B]

Did he like Silicon Valley?

[A]

He didn't like the show.

[B]

That's hilarious.

[A]

He was like. So the first scene of the show is. It's such a funny opening. It's Kid Rock playing on stage. And then it cuts to the audience and it's like, at clearly some tech party. There's seven nerdy dudes standing there. Nobody's paying attention. And Elon was upset. He was like, well, the parties I go to are much cooler than these parties. Yeah, man. You're one of the richest people in the world. We're like losers on the show. Of course your parties are better than my parties. What are you talking about?

[B]

It's really funny. Yeah. Did you meet Zuckerberg?

[A]

Zuckerberg. I don't really blame Zuckerberg for not liking us because we did this thing. This is so weird, dude. So like year three or year four of Silicon Valley, you know, it was like one of the, like the shows that people were watching and excited about. So they invited me and Martin Starr to go present at this science awards show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think in San Francisco. But they Gave us a private plane. And so it's me and Martin and a plane flying there. And it turned out to be an awards show for people. For people who'd made scientific breakthroughs all over the world. And it was actually really, really great. It was a great thing. You know, it was like sort of trying to be like really celebrating these people, but in the way that we celebrate, like the arts celebrating science. So they had a bunch of like famous people presenting to people that nobody had ever heard of. But it actually made the world better. So Martin and I, they'd like written something for us. And we were like, this isn't funny. We gotta do this. You know what we should do?

[B]

Famous last words. You know what we should do? You know what we should do?

[A]

Yes, exactly. I would say 40% of deaths have been preceded by that.

[B]

That's a bit, by the way. Yeah. You know what we should.

[A]

I was like, so the end of the first season of Silicon Valley, there's this very funny bit about what's the best way to jerk off a room full of guys?

[B]

Okay, yes.

[A]

It's like hundreds of people. And we, you know, it's very detailed. Cause we're trying to solve a problem that we need to solve.

[B]

I'm worried about the story.

[A]

We can't figure it out. I mean, about where this is going. Absolutely horrible. And so truly it's about like. Well, the best way to do it is if there are like two dicks tip to tip here, two dips tip to tip here. Cause then you can like jerk off four in a row. But it's gotta be height. Like. No, it's not. The height is dick to floor ratio. Cause that's what needs to line up. Also the girth needs to line up. Cause otherwise you're, you know. So all this, it's really like a very long scene of nerdy math guys doing math on the best way to. So Martin and I go up and we're like, what if you had to jerk off everybody in this room?

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And we do the entire bit.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

That we made and made them put in the teleprompter.

[B]

For scientists.

[A]

For scientists from around the world. Many of them don't speak English.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

I would say almost none of them knew who we were or what the fuck we were talking about. And me and Martin do the full five minute scene to absolute silence. Got off stage and I think Zuckerberg was one of the people who'd like put it together.

[B]

What it was. Yeah.

[A]

And we went up, he came and he was like, what the fuck was that?

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And truly in that moment, he was right.

[B]

The last thing we do is working it out for a cause. Is there a non profit profit that you like to contribute to? And then what we do is we contribute to them. Link to them in the show notes.

[A]

Yes. I really like Jose Andres Charity because he's again, one of the best chefs in the world, does amazing food, but then really is trying to fix hunger in the world.

[B]

He seems really focused on positive issues.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it's World Central Kitchen WCK.org World Central Kitchen will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes and encourage people to contribute as well. And Kumail, this has just been tremendous. I feel like I could talk to you all day so far.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like we barely scratched the surface.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Welcome back. Come back. Yeah, I'm here for a few months.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

Great.

[B]

We'll do weekly working it out.

[A]

Cause it's not done.

[B]

We're working it out. Cause there's no one that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Kumail on Instagram @kumail n k u M A I L N. You can watch the full video of this one on YouTube. Let's just search Mike Birbiglia. Subscribe. We are going to be posting more and more videos. Don't miss it. And you can follow me on Instagram at Burbigs. We had a clip from the Bob Bodenkirk episode a couple weeks ago that just went so viral. We've. I don't think we've ever had one. Like it went out to 20 million people. 20 million people. So crazy. And I think maybe 5 million on TikTok or something. It's just like, who are you? It was, who are you jealous of? And he said people who still have kids at home. It was super sweet. People like sentimental things in comedy spaces sometimes. That's my takeaway from that. Check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. That's how you can be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers are working at our myself along with Peter Salamone, Joseph Birbiglia, Gary Simons and Mabel Lewis. Sound mix by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoyed this show, rate it and review it on Apple Podcasts. We've been doing the podcast for five years as of June. So five years and two months. This is the 180th episode you can listen to. 180 episodes set aside some time. They're all free. No paywall. Check them out. Thanks most of all to you who are listening to the show. I really appreciate it. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell the high school bullies who keep putting your high school nickname into your Wikipedia page. You can jump in there and edit. You gotta get a login and edit the page. Just write, hey, high school bullies of mine who keep adding my old nickname to this page. Maybe instead of teasing me, you should check out Mike Birbigli's Working it out podcast where Mike Birbiglia talks about the creative process with comedians and other creatives. You just write that in the Wikipedia. But don't forget to cite your source. It's this podcast. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.