208. KevOnStage: How To Make A Comedy Show About Grief

Summary

Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out

Episode 208: Kevin Fredericks – How To Make A Comedy Show About Grief
Released: April 6, 2026

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Overview

In this emotionally rich and genuinely funny episode, Mike Birbiglia is joined by comedian, author, and creator Kevin Fredericks (aka KevOnStage). Together, they explore the complexities of creating a solo comedy show centered around the often-taboo topic of grief—following the loss of Kevin’s brother in 2022. Their conversation navigates the intersection of comedy, vulnerability, failure, family, marriage, and the transformative power of allowing audiences—and themselves—to witness the deepest parts of their lives. The episode moves fluidly from poignant to hilarious, as both comics share personal stories, workshop material, and examine the art and purpose of comedy itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Connecting Through Grief and Comedy

• How the Collaboration Began ([03:30])

  • Lin-Manuel Miranda connected Kevin and Mike after Kevin lost his brother and wanted to develop a solo show about grief.
  • Kevin's wife encouraged him to seek help; Lin advised him to watch Birbiglia’s specials for inspiration instead of hiring a writer.
  • Kevin: “I actually don't think you need a writer. I think you need two things: a director and to watch Mike Birbiglia.” ([03:49])
  • Kevin immersed himself in Mike's work, realizing, “It was probably the best thing about this show was finding out about you.” ([04:31])

• Developing the Show ([04:56])

  • Kevin discusses testing intensely personal material, deciding not to try certain grief material in comedy clubs:
    “Because the subject matter is so intense, I felt like it was really unfair to the audience and the comedians.” ([05:45])
  • Instead, he focused on longer sets in curated venues to create a supportive environment for hard topics.

• Balancing Comedy and Vulnerability ([07:09], [07:49])

  • Mike shares advice from his director:
    “The theater is what happens on that stage, in that room that night.” ([07:39])
  • Kevin credits Mike with giving him “permission to cry” onstage:
    “You should have at least four moments that you really allow yourself not to worry about the joke.” ([07:49])

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2. Processing Grief on Stage

• Origins of the Grief Material ([09:13])

  • Kevin went onstage less than two weeks after his brother died:
    “Most people experience loss, and then they take a few days off... My line of business is trying to make people laugh.”
  • He tells the first grief-related joke about his brother and Nia Long, using humor to process the tragedy ([10:09]-[11:32]).

• Encouragement from Family and Fans ([12:32])

  • Kevin’s wife and a friend challenged him to create something wholly new and personal after observing the impact of his grief-related videos.
  • The overwhelming response from fans: “Yo, thank you. I’ve been needing this. You’re able to bring comedy to this in a way I haven’t seen.”

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3. Style, Audience, and Cultural Roots

• Black Church Influence ([14:17], [29:15])

  • Call-and-response moments at his shows:
    “I have a hugely...my audience is black church people. Because that’s how I grew up and that’s how I started.” ([14:29])
  • Kevin's ability to "preach about anything," turning movie plots into sermons in the classic black church style ([29:22]-[31:30]).
  • On the parallel between standup and preaching:
    “Low key, standup and preaching is very similar skill sets.” ([31:54])

• Navigating Comedy Club vs Church Audiences ([14:54], [15:56])

  • Kevin honed his act in tough comedy clubs, learning the importance of "building your toolkit" and handling hecklers properly ([16:01]).
  • Quote: “You want to get the crowd on your side, and the crowd will weed them [the heckler] out.” ([17:01])

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4. On Failure, Bombing, and Going Viral

• Bombing as a Rite of Passage ([18:12]-[19:37])

  • Both comics stress that failing is essential:
    “The biggest piece of advice is you have to do it and fail.” (Mike, [19:20]) “You have to fail, like a lot of times, and fail epically.” ([19:37])

• Jokes That Surprised Them Online ([20:22])

  • Kevin’s viral “Oreo” joke about eating too many Oreos despite dietary advice—relatability often beats cleverness on the internet ([20:33]-[21:43]).

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5. Family, Marriage, and Memory

• The “Anime Arms” Basketball Bit ([24:13])

  • Kevin revisits a favorite joke about his son’s struggles at basketball, connecting generational and cultural expectations with humor.

• Marriage Stories and Miscommunication ([33:00], [38:55])

  • Kevin recounts a “Rom Com” moment when his wife considered leaving during a difficult period, illustrating the tension and drama that can exist beneath a marriage's surface.
    “In my story, it's raining now. And I'm like, baby, oh, yeah, sure, it's raining.” ([35:07])
  • On divergent memories, Kevin and his wife remember pivotal arguments entirely differently ([37:00]-[40:44]).
  • Mike: “In relationships, you have two people witnessing identical events and remembering them two very different ways.” ([37:04])

• Therapy, Empathy, and Retelling Stories ([40:44])

  • Discuss how reframing past conflicts in therapy can heal and even change how couples remember the past.

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6. Crafting a Narrative from Life

• Digressions and Structure ([42:45])

  • Mike suggests weaving in personal stories as comic relief to balance the show's heavy themes: “If you're hitting death the whole time...there might be a version where your comic relief in the middle ends up being about really just random things that are in some ways correlated to what happened on that day.” ([43:00])

• Family Dynamics at the Funeral ([46:23])

  • Kevin shares a poignant/funny story from his brother’s funeral, where his grandmother bluntly addressed another relative’s complaints about the deceased’s physical appearance:
    “His color's off, his color's off. And my grandma's like, ‘He's dead, Tammy. That's why he looks like that.’”
    Mike: “It was such a not funny thing in the moment, but later on, it was ‘dead, Tammy.’” ([47:23])

• Comedy’s Boundary-Pushing Role ([48:15])

  • On handling difficult topics:
    “You can talk about anything. You just have to be really good and really smart and willing to do a lot of work to get away with something.” ([48:46])
  • Mike: “If they don't land the plane is where it gets really dicey.” ([49:06])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kevin (on performing about grief):
  “In this show, it's not solely about the comedic aspect. Once you gave me permission to cry...that's kind of why I call it a one-man show versus a pure standup set.” ([07:49])

• Kevin (on Black church comedy):
  “I can preach about anything. I can preach about the Lion King or Toy Story and I can take just the plot...and make you feel like you're in church.” ([29:22])

• Mike (on audience honesty):
  “The audiences don't lie. When you bomb, you're bombing. The crowd wants to laugh.” ([18:12])

• Kevin (on a family funeral moment):
  “He's dead, Tammy. That's why he looks like that.” ([47:23])

• Mike (on relationship memory):
  “In relationships, you have two people witnessing identical events and remembering them two very different ways.” ([37:04])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:30] – The story behind Kevin and Mike’s collaboration (the Lin-Manuel Miranda connection)
• [04:56] – Developing and testing grief material as comedy
• [07:09]-[07:49] – Permission to be vulnerable on stage; the power of crying before an audience
• [09:13] – First attempts at a grief joke after losing his brother
• [14:17] – Call-and-response and Black church culture at Kevin’s shows
• [16:01] – Handling hecklers and learning from failure
• [19:20] – On the inevitability (and importance) of failure in standup
• [20:33] – Viral “Oreo” joke and relatability online
• [24:13] – The “anime arms” basketball joke
• [29:22] – Preaching movie plots as sermons, and the church’s influence on his comedy
• [33:00] – A “rom-com” marital struggle and divergent memories
• [42:45] – Structuring a comedy show with personal digressions
• [46:23] – “He’s dead, Tammy” family funeral story
• [48:46] – Pushing boundaries in comedy and landing the plane

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Charity Highlight ([53:25])

• Storm DeBarge’s Dance Program in LA:
  Kevin selects a new after-school dance initiative by Storm DeBarge, supporting kids in LA. Mike commits to contributing and sharing the link in the show notes.
  Kevin: “Sometimes something as simple as dance, boxing, sports.” ([53:51])

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Final Thoughts

Mike closes, expressing admiration for Kevin’s openness and creative bravery:
“It’s beautiful. And it’s a real gift you’re doing. You’re giving a real gift to your audience.” ([55:09])

Kevin expresses deep appreciation for Mike’s honest feedback and support:
“Thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate it.” ([55:17])

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For Listeners

• Follow Kevin: Instagram @kevonstage
• Books:
  • “Successful Lessons Learned Flat on My Face”
  • “Marriage Be Hard” (co-authored with Melissa Fredericks)

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This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in how comedy can process grief, the mechanics of standup, or the power of storytelling to unite pain and laughter. Whether you’re a fan of either comedian or newly discovering them, the conversation is warm, honest, and deeply human.

Transcript

[Kevin Fredericks]

So my oldest son was terrible at basketball when he was young and I mean, just an embarrassment to black people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Bad.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And one of my things is like, you gotta have a good jump shot. Otherwise it looks like your dad wasn't in your life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Ah, really?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Your jump shot is a reflection of me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure. That is the voice of the great Kevin Fredericks. This is a really interesting episode today. It came about because Lynn Mirand, that one, that guy, he's been on the podcast before. That's his biggest credit as far as I know. He called me and said, I love this guy Kevin Fredericks, and he's a comedian and he's looking to develop a solo show about grief and I was wondering if I could connect you. So he connected us and we talked on the phone a few times. I went to see his show the other night at Union hall in process and then we had a great talk today. Kevin is a very prolific comic and author. He wrote two books. One is called Successful Lessons Learned Flat on My Face. The other he co authored with his wife, Melissa Fredricks. And it's called marriage be hard 12 conversations to keep you laughing, loving and learning with your partner. We have a great chat today. I love what he's doing. I feel like he's opening up about this really challenging thing and we're just sort of getting to know each other in the podcast today. It's great. I want to mention something really fun, which is the audio of my show. The Old man in the Pool is now on Spotify. Listen to it in your car. Put it on one of your playlists. I'm really proud of it. Old man in the Pool, which by the way, while you're there, you could listen to thank God for Jokes, My Girlfriend's Boyfriend, Sleepwalk With Me Live, My Secret Public Journal and 2 Drink Mike that a lot of albums on there. Anyway, thanks also to everyone who signed up for working up premium on Apple Podcasts. We've been doing a lot of different kinds of bonus episodes. We just dropped a brand new bonus episode on there where I'm prepping for a set at the Comedy Cellar. It's really fun. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the show behind the show. Behind the show on there, Berbilia Familia. You can go on Apple Podcasts in the app, go to Working it Out and then you click on Premium subscriptions 4.99amonth. You get no ads. You support the show, which is an independent production, and you get bonus episodes. Also. Are you in Los Angeles. I heard you were in Los Angeles. I'll be at Netflix's a joke festival May 6 at the Wilshire E. Bell Theater. It's me and friends each doing a really good 20 or 30 minutes probably. I have a good feeling about that show. I'm also doing a bunch of dates in support of John Mulaney along with Fred Armisen. We're going to be in Colorado Springs in May as well as Eugene, Oregon Bend, Oregon and then in August we'll be in Morehead, Minnesota. Get tickets for [e-mail] and by the way, sign up for those text message alerts. That's a better way to get these things because then it doesn't go to spam in your email, just text For Biggs to 917-444-7150 to be the first to know. I love this conversation with Kevin Fredericks. We talk about failure, how to learn from your failures. We talk about Heckler's marriage. It goes pretty deep for people who do not know each other. I feel like it goes deep. And I like Kevin a lot. I think he's hilarious. Enjoy my conversation with the great Kevin Fredericks.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Shout out to Lynn for introducing me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know. Yeah, Lin Miranda put us in touch. Lin Miranda's been on the show before and he obviously is a legend and

[Kevin Fredericks]

he

[Mike Birbiglia]

put us in touch because he's a fan of yours. And. And then did you reach out to him and say, hey, I'm working on the show about grief.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I lost my brother and my wife was like, you need to find at first she was like, you need to find a writer to like, if you're thinking of one man show, you need to find a writer to help you write. So as a good husband, she's often very right. So I reached out to Lynn. I was like, yo, my wife's, you know. And I didn't want to reach out to him because I'm very hesitant to ask for help in any way. But I'm on a closed mouths, don't get fed sort of thing. So I asked him and he was like, I actually don't think you need a writer. I think you need two things. A director and to watch Mike Birbiglia. And I was like, okay. So I watched all four year specials and I watched your movie. And then I was like, I get it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, wow.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I get why he suggested that it was probably the best thing about this show was finding about, about you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's amazing. And then we, and then we talked on the phone Lynn called. Lynn called me and said, hey, will you talk to Kev?

[Kevin Fredericks]

We talk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We talked a couple times. Had great, great chat about it. And then I saw the show in progress last night at Union hall. Is so moving. I mean, it's. It was. It's hard. It's a hard topic.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's a hard topic. It's really.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you go for it.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I really go for it. Like when I was watching yours, you have hard topics, but you'll go in a place that you. It's way away from the topic and you'll come back. Yeah, yeah. I was like, okay, can I do this? But stay very close to the topic because I really wanted to go through it, you know, And I have like a list. My version of this is on my iPhone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I have just like everything about how grief sucks, everything about what's unfair. And then I just threw it all in there. So earlier in the show, I was, you know, trying every single thing, and my wife was like, hey, man, can't be this long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

You know, so as a comedian, you naturally, like. Well, I don't. You don't know what works until you try it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Cause I was trying what you suggested of, like. Well, I thought about, like, working it out at the clubs and stuff, but because the subject matter is so intense, I felt like it was really unfair to the audience and the comedians.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

To have a regular set that you hear dating, whatever. And then I'm like, hey, man, my brother died, y'. All. And then the next guy's gotta come up, the next girl's gotta come up. I was like, I feel like that's a little unfair to them on just like a regular thing where you're seeing six comedians.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I felt like it gave me a better shot to have more time to, like, set the stage. So I just kind of went and did it all. Wow. I just worked on it ahead of time a million times, which I had never done before. I'd always worked it out on stage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And so then. But then what you did last night at Union hall, is that in progress or is that done?

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's still in progress.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I feel like pacing wise, that was my best pacing show. I'm still taking huge chunks out, putting things in. Still, like the ending. I didn't even have anything close to an ending. Some nights I just cried.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

You had two shows ago, like maybe three shows, I think in Portland. I was crying so hard. I just was like, thank you. And I walked off and my brother in law, my tour manager, was like, maybe you need to click away from the last video so you can kind of get your bearings a little bit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's one of the things we talked about on the phone. You were like, what do you do when you cry?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I told you a thing that my director, Seth Barish said to me when I first cried on stage 2008, when I did my first solo show, sleepwalk with me, which is jumping through a second story window, sleepwalking and all this stuff. And I cried and I said to Seth, like, what do you. What should I do if I'm gonna. He goes, well, that's what the theater is. Yeah. The theater is what happens on that stage, in that room that night.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And like last night you were crying and I was like. I was there for it.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was like, I was choked up. I was, I was like, this is a gift.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Right, Right. And I think one thing you told me that probably was the best advice in a sea of good advice. So thank you very much. Of course, I appreciate for somebody you didn't even know, you took time, you poured into me. It was just like, it was a godsend. But you were like, you should have at least four moments that you really allow yourself to not worry about the joke, which was the first time I've ever. As a comedian, you are always the joke, the joke, the joke, the joke, the joke, you know, building up to the joke. But in this show, it's not solely about the comedic aspect, even though it is. And I, you know, once you gave me permission to cry, and that's kind of why I call it a one man show versus a pure standup set. Cause usually at a standup show or my shows, you wouldn't expect to cry. But I think with the subject matter, people understand, and often in the audience, people are crying too, or crying, laughing, crying through tears, you know, or just really crying. So I think it's such a. As a comedian and as an artist and an actor, it allows you to really, I kind of say, like, go into the character, but the character is me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I was curious when I was watching it, when you had the impulse because your brother died in 2022. And I was curious when you started to feel like I should talk about this on stage and. And sort of was there like a why?

[Kevin Fredericks]

So I first talked about it on stage, I think less than two weeks after. After. Cause I actually was at the beginning of a tour when he passed away. And as you know, as a working Comedian like, this is my job.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, of course.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And most people experience loss, and then they take a few days off. They have to go back to work, whatever that is. My line of business is trying to make people laugh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

But it also is how I process the actual world as well. So it was like, one of the jokes in the show is the joke that I did about Nia Long. And I did it maybe less than two weeks after. Cause I had shows scheduled. I had comedians flying in, all that type of stuff. So. And just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you say it just so that people understand the context, some of the things that you talk about in the show? I feel like your fan base is, like, way ahead of it.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'm, like, trying to catch up. I'm like, okay, what is that reference?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. So the joke is. And this is the first joke I did. I. This is harsh. And I'm sorry. Nia. Nia Long killed my brother. Right. It's the joke. In real life, my brother had a heart attack. And prior to that heart attack, we were having a regular conversation. Me, him, two of my friends, Ken and Ant, about the Celtics coach Ime Udoka, had a scandal where he cheated on his wife. And in the moment, we're realizing, well, isn't he married to Nia Long? And one of my friends was like, you know, we were like, that's crazy. Why are you cheating on Nia Long, man? You married Nia Long. Nia Long is fine. Like, who did he cheat with? Was what we were talking about. One of my homeboys was like, well, my girls. I mean, Nia Long's cool, but my girl's finer than that. And me and my other homeboy just started. Are you crazy? What are you talking about? She's not that fine. Like, she's a regular girl, nice lady, but she's not finer than Mia Long. And we're going for 10, 15 minutes, and later on, my brother's wife calls me and is like, your brother had a seizure? And I was like, what? I was just talking to him, and I scroll back up, and I realized he had never responded after the nilong thing. Like, he never said anything else. He's never text back after the niyalong. So a few days after that, I told my brother, my homeboy, I was like, you know what it was the heart attack. It was you saying, your girl's finer than Nia Long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. And he was like, come on, man. I thought that too, but I felt so bad about that. So that's the first joke I took on stage and people laughed. It was great. But then I put it away. I literally did it one time. And then when I went back on the road, I just did the set that I had already been working on. And I thought I would never be able to craft an hour. And honestly, I wasn't going to until I was talking to my wife. I was doing a show at a church. Cause that's where I grew up. I started stand up in church. And a comedian did the joke I was just about to do. And I was like, oh, dang. Like that was on my set list. And my wife was like, I've been meaning to tell you. Like, you need to challenge yourself to do something new. Like, the only reason somebody's doing that joke is cause you did that joke when you were like 16, 17. And she was around at that time. So she was like, I want you to challenge yourself to go hard. Like write something new. Push yourself. Even if it takes six, nine months, you don't have to go on the road.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We're good.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Like, push yourself to do something that nobody else is doing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

At first I was like, no. Like, that's hard. I don't want to start from absolute scratch. I could do like, I usually do 15, 20 something, you know, often 30 minutes of brand new material. Yeah, but in the new hour, it's rarely like 60 minutes of brand new stuff. Because I want to know some stuff works. Yeah, but I had that. And then another friend of mine was like, he had. He had noticed I've done videos on grief all throughout the process, the funeral home, you know, all throughout grief over the years. And he was like, I notice every time you do a video on grief, it does really well. But more importantly, in the comments, people are like, yo, thank you. I've been needing this. You're able to bring comedy to this in a way that I haven't seen. He was like, would you consider doing a whole hour on that? And like those two things. My wife and his suggestion kind of became the idea of like, can I do a whole new show on grief? So I took all the notes that I had in my phone, all the jokes that I had, I rewatched all the videos that I had. And then I started to like, put them in some sort of like order that I could memorize or build a show around. And then I was just like chewing on how to get there. I didn't know the segues or the order or anything like that. And then when I saw your shows, I was like, ah, here's How I can, like, put it together. And I think that was like. It was like godly divine timing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was laughing last night when one of the first things you said, everyone said amen in the crowd. I was like, what? What just happened? What do you say?

[Kevin Fredericks]

I don't even remember what I said.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you say, can I get an amen or something?

[Kevin Fredericks]

I think I said it last night. That was the first time I did that, though.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was cool.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've never witnessed that at a comedy show. I was like, what is happening?

[Kevin Fredericks]

That's so funny because it happens so often at my shows. But I have a hugely, huge amount of. My audience is black church people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Because that's how I grew up and that's how I started.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you started in churches and you've performed in churches through the years.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you. Is your material ever too much for your own audience?

[Kevin Fredericks]

I don't think so, because I really started in churches. But I honed my craft in comedy clubs. And that was not church, not clean. Just regular comedy club people. Drunk people, sometimes fighting. Some people just came to the comedy show. Cause there was a club after and they just hung out. So I had to cut my teeth in regular comedy settings through that time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an interesting thing where you. When you're starting out, typically the gigs are harder. Yeah, right.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Much harder.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it weirdly, is fortuitous.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you get better in places where it's really hard. And you learn tricks like raising your voice or speeding up or, you know, getting aggressive with the crowd, but then going back to the bit, you know, all kinds of. And it's kind of good in a way, for sure. And it also kind of weeds out people who weren't meant to be comedians.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I couldn't agree more. Cause you're just like, up there, like, man, what the hell am I doing?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. There's definitely.

[Kevin Fredericks]

What is going on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's definitely moments of what the hell am I doing?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah, you're just, like, having to navigate. I mean, I remember I mishandled a heckler so bad because early on I was like, almost a hometown favorite. Cause I was from Tacoma. I had like a friends in the audience, people from my church. Like, so one of my first times performing out of LA and not in the church, I got heckled. And I had never been heckled before. So I was just, like, personally offended. And I was angry and I had no experience. So I was like, there was an older lady, and I'm so sorry, ma', am, to you. I Never got a chance to see you again. And I was just like, that's why you look like a dead wolf.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, God,

[Kevin Fredericks]

you look like my dead grandma. I was just, like, going. And I remember Nate and BT Kingsley were backstage. They pulled me aside. They were like, hey, man, that's a little too much. That's like. You never want to go at a heckler that hard. Your ideal preferred method is to get the crowd against them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

So you want to get the crowd on your side, and the crowd will weed them out. He was like, you can never take it. That person. You didn't even have a joke, right. You just yelled at that lady. She was a dead wolf. That's not. There's no comedy there. And I was right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like the lightest touch that actually will direct the audience to disapprove of the. Of the heckler.

[Kevin Fredericks]

You need the audience to shame them without losing your cool.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's such a weird kind of, like, village mentality. And it's not unlike. Yeah. Or a village or a church or just any group of people where you're like, okay, we need to get the energy right on that person being the problem versus me being not good.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Because if you mishandle it, then the directs it all at you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And it's that quick beat. So I was like, oh, okay. So I just had to go back to Washington. Like, that did not go at all how I planned, you know? But like you were saying, I think it's so important for comedians to go through all that. Cause it's. All of that is like something added to your toolkit. And I think standup is one of the things. You can't really cheat. You have to put the hours in to be really good because you. It's each of those scenarios that makes you good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And also, the audiences don't lie.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, when you bomb, you're bombing. You're bombing. And the crowd wants to laugh.

[Kevin Fredericks]

They do. And celebrity can't save you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Nothing can, because laughter is involuntary.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it was Seinfeld who said, like, celebrity saves you for about two and a half minutes, three minutes. And then they're like, okay, is this good or not?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Five at the most.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, five at the most.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I remember one time I bombed, and I was well into my career. I was doing keep your distance during COVID I was doing outside shows, and I was. So it was going well because we're performing to the crowd there, and then we would stream it live. And this one particular show, we weren't Streaming live. We were basically tape delaying it. And I made the mistake of performing to the camera crowd and not the crowd that was in front of me. And as I'm talking, I realized, oh, my God, I'm bombing in front of only family and friends. And I'm like, making eye contact.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I remember Tony Baker, one of my close friends, great comedian. I made contact with him, eye contact with him. And he was just like, hey, man, I can't help you. This is not working. You're bombing. I look at my wife and she's just like. You know, it's weird because you want,

[Mike Birbiglia]

like, everyone who writes into the show or asks me for advice, I'm sure asks you for advice. The biggest piece of advice is you have to do it and fail. Which is not fun to give as advice even.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Right. It's so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You just see this glazed look on people's face like, wait, what? Like, yeah, you have to fail, like a lot of times and fail epically. And like, still, like, I still go to clubs all the time with new stuff and. Oh, wow, these. That's not hitting at all in my head. That was great.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That's one of the worst feelings, because I feel like stand up is one of the only art forms where you really don't know if it works until you truly, truly. If you're a dancer or you're a musician, you know what a good note sounds like. You know what a good song sounds like?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think so.

[Kevin Fredericks]

But a joke that. It's all funny to us when we write it down, but some stuff just does not relay well. And it's a hard thing to have to bury that joke that you had high hopes for that goes nowhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you ever have a viral thing that you didn't see it coming? You kind of put it out. Cause you thought it was a little bit funny, and then it just caught.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, what do you have that with?

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's so funny because it's the things that I care the least about and put the least of thought into. I did a joke about Oreos because my. My trainer was telling me I was trying to lose weight for the millionth time. And my trainer was telling me, you know, I was like, I can't eat anything. I can only eat celery and lettuce. And he was like, you can eat whatever you want. I was like, I can't eat Oreos. And he's like, you can eat Oreos. Just eat two.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I was like, what kind of sociopath eats two Oreos? Like, Nobody has the control. Like, I eat two Oreos on my way to the couch to really eat Oreos.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Is my joke as a preparation for. Those are travel Oreos.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Those don't even count. Like, I'm lucky if I can eat one sleeve of Oreos.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are you kidding me?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. Like, if you're gonna eat Oreos, just eat Oreos. Yeah. So, I mean, I did that joke and it was like, millions of views.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's so funny.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And it was like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was like a throwaway.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It was a throw away.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was like, yeah, dog. This is what I think about all the time. Right? This is like. This is literally my inner monologue. And like, yeah. Caught.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It was just a passing time joke to something else.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And that's the thing about the Internet. You just never know what. Often relatability is more important than funny on the Internet.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Kevin Fredericks]

But even like the Frank Sinatra thing that you were talking about with Villainy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

The fact that you didn't think that was funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know. I think it's funny. I. I don't know where to go with it. I'm just like, what is this exactly?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Fat pigs is where you go. You don't have to say any.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I know there's something about that,

[Kevin Fredericks]

because people are not supposed to say those things. And celebrities nowadays wouldn't say that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's to give context to people who didn't listen to that episode with Mulaney. It's basically. It's. My aunt said to me once, I go, you ever go see a live music show or anything like that? And she goes, I went to see Frank Sinatra when I was a teenager, and we were walking out the door and we were at the stage door, and we're like, frankie, Frankie, we love you. And he pushes us out of the way and goes, get out of the way, you fat pigs. And gets in the car and leaves. And it's like, so stupid. And I think it gets People's literally like, Kimmel. Kimmel texted me about it and just goes, that's the funniest thing I've ever seen on your podcast.

[Kevin Fredericks]

They still loved him after.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They still love him.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I think that's what makes it funny. It's sadistic, because you would expect nowadays, oh, my God, I hate him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I'm going to call him out on Twitter. And they were like, no, we love Frankie.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We love Frankie. That's vintage Frankie. No. And it was funny because we were Talking here in the office after that, I was like, what is it about that? That where could it go? And I think it's honestly that it's like that. It's like we all have in relationships. How much can we get beat on by somebody before we're like, wait, what?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's everything. Your parents, you know, your girlfriend, your friend, your wife, you know, whoever it is.

[Kevin Fredericks]

You got Frank Sinatra, in that case.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Frank Sinatra. There's almost nothing he can do to make them. Yeah. It is funny about how clips tell you, like you're saying, but the Oreos, it's like, where's the relatability? It's like, that's where it is, clearly.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I think that's how, like, how comedians nowadays will do the crowd work to get you to come in. And they often have a totally different set. And they just, like, do some part of this to get you to come to the show. And I think that's the thing. Like, I chopped up my whole show that time. And the Oreo clip was, by and large, the funniest thing that went viral.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

The other thing was talking about my kid loving anime. And I actually did work on that joke, but these things were like, they're not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the anime thing?

[Kevin Fredericks]

So my. My oldest son was terrible at basketball when he was young. And, I mean, just an embarrassment to black people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Bad.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And one of my things is like, you gotta have a good jump shot. Otherwise it looks like your dad wasn't in your life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Really?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Your jump shot is a reflection of me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I was at his game.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This isn't about him.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's not about him at all. It's about me. Yeah. It's either I'm not a part of your life, or I'm so not a part of your life that you're NBA level good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's so funny.

[Kevin Fredericks]

But if you're in the middle.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Then your dad just sucks at sports.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right. It's almost like you can't even let him play basketball.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's better off for you to not touch the court than to have a terrible jump shot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

So I used to tell this joke because when he was really young, he's not. He's not this bad anymore. When he was young, he just loved basketball, but he was awful at it. And he was at a game and he shot a free throw and his arms crossed like this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Jumped.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[Kevin Fredericks]

He jumped.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Free throw, arms crossed, jumps. Wow.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I was in the stands like, oh, my God. And we live in la, majority Hispanic people. So I'm the only black. He's the only black kid on the team. I'm the only black parent in the stands. So I can feel all the parents and all the kids like, well, there's his dad, so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So he stinks.

[Kevin Fredericks]

He stinks. Clearly he's awful at basketball. And he was also like an anime fan. So I just merged those two worlds.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I made the joke of like, he's running down the court with anime arms. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like doing all that. He's powering up at the free throw line before a free throw. So I just mixed the two things into one and I did his actual free throw, which he actually did. I actually was recording it. And when he shot that, I just put my phone down because I was like, there's no way I'm posting him shooting like this. He just like hit the backboard and came straight back to him. Just awful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Foreign. Support for Working it out comes from Helix. If you're a listener to this podcast, you know how much we love Helix Mattresses. Everyone on staff here at Working it out has a Helix mattress. We are never going back. I've been a Helix customer myself for many years, since the beginning of this podcast almost six years ago. I know a thing or two about sleep and Helix makes the best mattress I've ever slept on. And I've slept on a lot of mattresses. I travel quite a bit, stay in a lot of hotels. Traveling actually can be hard. If I could bring my Helix mattress with me on tour, I would. Helix makes award winning sleep products tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. You can also rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience. Designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Helix offers a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. 120 nights. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com brurbigs for 20% off sitewide. Helixsleep.com brewbigs support for working it out comes from Mint Mobile. I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I'm just surrounded by cash at all times. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping my money too. Ah, I see where this is going. After years of overpaying for wireless, I finally got fed up with crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees and Free perks that actually cost more in the long run. And I switched to Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting around 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] burbigs that's mintmobile.com burbigs. Do people think of you as a quote unquote Christian comic because sometimes you're at churches performing?

[Kevin Fredericks]

I have this problem often. I don't consider myself a Christian comic. I consider myself a comedian who's a Christian. I purposely don't want to be considered a Christian comedian because it's setting you up for material you would not be prepared to see. If you see me, especially outside of a church, but some people do. But I think that's a. That implies that I'm only going to do jokes about church, which is not my case.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is that a thing the Christian means you just talk about church?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah, yeah. There are some people who just talk about church. Church related things. Only 15 minutes to 45 minutes can all be on church over.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the funniest thing about a black church that someone who doesn't go to one like me would think is funny?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Oh, one of my favorite, favorite jokes, I had a pastor who was really young for a pastor. He was like late 30s and he could preach about anything. He would preach like when the Boston Red Sox won the World Series after being cursed. He had an amazing message about like, God is breaking curses. And now he's a sports fan. I was like, this guy's the best. He's like amazing. So one of the jokes that I used to do, and I still can do a version of it anytime, is I can preach about anything. I can preach about the Lion King or Toy Story and I can take just the, just the plot of the movie and make you feel like you're in church. So I would be like, you know, there was a, there was a toy and his name was Woody. And there was a new toy that joined the group and his name was Buzz Lightyear. And now listen to me, Mike. I want you to know that God is gonna take you to infinity and beyond. Oh, come on, Come on. Now. When Buzz joined the room. The toys were jealous of him because he didn't believe he was a toy like them. Oh, watch this, Mike. Listen, listen, watch this. He said, I am a Space Ranger. They said, no, you're a toy. He said, I am a Space Ranger. Now watch this, Mike. The other toys plotted to kill Buzz at Woody's behest. And when he was standing by the window, they kicked him out. Oh, my God. I hear you, Holy Ghost. They kicked him out of the window. And what did he do, Mike? He hit the red button on his suit and activated the wing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, come on.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Y' all don't hear me today, Mike. He activated. Cause watch this. What is in you is what is already in you. And I want you to remember this, Mike. If you don't remember anything else, even if you forget who you are, don't forget whose you are. Oh, come on. And I would do that for the Lion King. I would do that for Aladdin. Like, I could do it. I could watch a movie or something. That happens. And I still do this on Instagram from time to time. And people will be like, man, that's amazing. But I got that from my pastor, who did it. For real?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, for real.

[Kevin Fredericks]

My first time, the Lion King, I did a whole Hakuna Matt Matata thing. The enemy wants to kill you because he knows who you're going to become. Oh, my God, he knows. The king's already inside of you. Before you know you're the king. Oh, my God. Turn to your neighbor and say, I just can't wait to be king. But I used to also preach like this. Like, I used to be a youth pastor.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting. Yeah. You were a youth pastor.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I was actually a youth pastor for many years.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you have the muscle.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I have the muscle. And low key standup and preaching is very similar skill sets.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I get that.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It's so similar. You gotta peak interest. And honestly, a lot of my favorite features are actually really funny and probably could do standup. But I used to like, teens are not. They're like the worst audience, so you really gotta grab them. So I would just listen to the music they're listening to and find messages. Kendrick Lamar, Drake songs, things like that. Or TV shows, movies, things that they knew. And that same skill set to keep their interest is the same skill set. You need to have comedy. And that's why I'm really grateful for growing up in the church. Cause it's like the black church was my conservatory. For sketches, for performing, I played instruments, you know, the same way you Gotta get the church up and get them excited is the same thing you gotta do for a crowd. So it's been really helpful to grow up the way I did and pursue standup.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When you were. So you wrote this book with your wife Melissa called Marriage Be Hard. Mm. Did you ever have a story that the two of you remembered two different ways?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Oh, yeah, man. This happened, I believe, after we published the book. There was a moment in time where we were like, on thin ice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I wouldn't say we were gonna get divorced, but I feel like we were teetering towards something happening that we wouldn't be able to come back from safely. And this was during COVID which I think a lot of marriages were harder during that time because we were all kind of unused to being around each other that much and felt kind of guilty for, like, I kind of don't want to be around you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That feels bad to say. But we weren't around each other because of work and travel and all that stuff. So anyway, one night we were just. Tension was really thick. We had a two story house and I felt like we could feel it through the floors. And at like 2 in the morning, she was like, I'm leaving. I'm gonna go to a hotel tonight.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And she got in her car. I was upstairs, she was downstairs. She got in her car in the garage and was booking a hotel and was like waiting for the garage door to open and she was gonna drive off. And I ran outside in our neighborhood in just my draws. And, you know, I'm 270, my belly's hanging over the underwear, I'm ashy, my feet are scraping the ground. And I, like, cried. Begged R and B video from the 90s, yearned. And we stayed in the car till like 4 or 5 o' clock in the morning. And I was just like, I can't let you go. Cause I remember her parents got divorced, and one of the things they both said separately is, I wish the other would have fought for me. And I remember being like, I don't want her to think. I want her to leave.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

If she. She's gonna. I can't let her go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

To her, I'm being overdramatic. Her version of that story is like, she was thinking about leaving. She was really, really wasn't gonna leave. She was just seeing if I would come. And in my life, she was dry. In my. Also my story, it's raining now. And I'm like, baby, oh, yeah, sure, it's an. I'm in you're singing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm singing now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Neighbors are peeking through the windows.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Like, every year, the story gets a little bit bigger. But the truth is, she was ready to take a break. And also, she was going to the Courtyard Marriott. And I just felt like, if you're gonna take a break from me, at least go to a respectable hotel.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

You can't. The Courtyard, Simi Valley.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, we don't need a half kitchen.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Come on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Residence Inn. Like, go to the Waldorf. At least tax me. If you're gonna leave Kev on stage, you can't go to no Doubletree.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's funny that she admitted that she wanted you to fight for her. That's a thing.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That's a thing. That's a thing. In a relationship, that's a thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sometimes people want you to have a little.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I want to feel wanted.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A little fight in you and fought forward for the love.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yes. You want to feel like. What is that? I think in some maybe twisted way, we need to feel desired, even if we need to create the scenario where you should not be desired. Like, in theory, if you say, I'm leaving you, I should let you go and be an independent woman. But what you really want is the. We all want the rom com running to the plane, meeting you at the gate, train station. Like, Hollywood has infiltrated our minds. And we want to know that you won't let me go. I think that's part of it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think also part of it is just like, when you feel bad about yourself, you feel like you're not fighting for yourself. You're like, well, maybe this person will fight for me.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That kind of energizes you, I think.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I agree. Like, if I don't have enough fight. Yeah. Will you fight for me and give me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, someone's gotta fight you Lend

[Kevin Fredericks]

me your fight for the day, because I don't got it. And maybe I'm gonna push you to the edge where you gotta make a choice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like you could talk about that on stage.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I think I could.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's a good story.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And that's a joke. I've never even tried.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I think that's a fun story. Cause it is. I'm obsessed with this. I talk about this on stage a lot. I'm obsessed with this idea of. In relationships, you have two people witnessing identical events and remembering them two very different ways.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Oh. Oh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It happens all the time.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I have even better one. I had hired a security guard because there was a period of Time where comedians were getting attacked on stage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I remember that. I was just like, Dave Chappelle had happened.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Dave Chappelle, I think. Gary Owen, D.C. young, fly all Chris Rock. Yeah,

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. We don't need to explore that, but sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Exactly. And I'm not much of a fighter. Yeah. So I'm like, if somebody attacks me on stage, they might win.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of course.

[Kevin Fredericks]

So I was like, maybe I'm gonna get a security guard because I don't want this to happen. So I hired this security guard. He was humongous Samoan dude. He was like 6, 6, 350 pounds plus.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Kevin Fredericks]

He like a bare hands. Like, he like, he could just grab a salmon out of a stream and like knock a tree over. And I remember I knew how scary he was when I was like, hey, man, have you ever been in a fight when we're like kind of doing the interview process and he looked me dead in my eyes. He was like, kev, I hate when I have to hurt people. It makes me feel so bad to have to hurt people. And I was like, you're hired.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're hired.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Because if you don't want to do the damage you do, you probably are really inflicting some pain.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

So my wife had come to a show in Orlando and my brother and sister in law were also there and Josh was there. So it was like full. And then the security guard was like, I'm coming with you everywhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And at this time in my marriage, I was working on letting my wife know she had control. Asking her instead of telling her, like this was a thing we were going through in therapy because I can be overbearing, borderline controlling.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Getting all this.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah, right. So I asked her, are you riding with me or your sister? And what I was trying to do was say, hey, I want you to ride with me, but I don't want to impose that you should ride with me because I know this huge security guard is also going to ride with me, but I prefer you to ride with me. What she heard is, you don't want me. You want me to go with my sister. Not what I said, but she heard with my ass. Are you riding with your sister or me? I don't want you go with your sister. And the worst part about it, Mike, the hotel was like a three minute drive from the venue. We could have walked together.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It always is. These arguments are always based on a three minute drive.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Three minute drive. Like, if it weren't for like a freeway, it wouldn't even have been a talk we could have just walked together. This thing had irreparable harm on our relationship. And in therapy, our therapist was like, I want you to go back to that moment and replay these events. And, Kevin, I want you to say what you wish you would have said. And instead I said, hey, Melissa, can you ride with me? Conan's gonna sit in the front. We'll be a little tight, but can you ride with me? I want you to ride with me back to the hotel. And the funny thing about you won the fight.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the same story 1000%. You wanted to fight 1000%.

[Kevin Fredericks]

But the funny thing about it is, after we replayed that in her memory and my memory, it goes now to the therapized retelling of the story instead of the actual moment where we were at odds. And I thought that was such an interesting lesson in, like, you can choose to remember things how you want to, and now if you have more information, you can choose to remember them differently. But you can also hurt people unintentionally.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's funny. Like, the thing I'm working on on stage right now has to do with I say on stage, like, to me, the most seminal shift in my life was falling in love. Because before I fell in love, my whole life, I had all these hopes and dreams and plans, and then I fell in love, and I was like, or whatever you want to do. But significantly, significantly, Jen saw me do that joke recently at the Comedy Cellar. And she goes, that's what you think happened? She goes, we've spent the last 20 years doing exactly what you want to do. And see therein lie the often two contradictory perspectives in a marriage on identical events. Two people intending to do what the other person wants to do. Like, whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to do. That is 20 years later, and no one's done what anyone wants to do. And I go, I'm here to tell you tonight if this sounds familiar in your relationship, you guys, to start doing what somebody wants to do because we're running out of time. That's, like, hilarious. Yeah, yeah, It's a fun one.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That's hilarious. It's so true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's funny. Cause then Neil Brennan saw me do it, who's been a guest on the show a couple times before at the Cellar the other night. And he was like, you should have your whole show be about that.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's like. Cause that's everything.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That is everything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Everything is like people trying to do what their friend or their parents or their wife or their girlfriend wants to do. And that person's trying to do that for you, too. And it's like, you don't want to

[Kevin Fredericks]

jump out and say, well, I think we should do this because now you're just a jerk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And we always do what you want to do, so you end up doing stuff you don't want to do. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then you're resentful about that.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah, absolutely. You're like, I should have just said this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, she should have just said what I wanted to do. Because you're just being deferent to them, and they think they're being different to you, and everyone's angry. Yes.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Or they want you to say it so they don't have to think about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. That's so true.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And also, like, with your show, I feel like there might be something where you digress from, like, you're at the funeral and you digress into, like, my wife is there with me, and we had just had an argument about blah, blah, blah. And you could go into some of that stuff and then come back.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think, like, sometimes the, you know, it's like putting, you know, painting with the color red too much in a canvas. It's like sometimes, like, if. If you are hitting death the whole time, the funeral the whole time, like, it's like, at certain point, you're like this. It's, like, shocking. It's like, there might be a version where you're like, your central. And I do this in a lot of my shows, but your central story is, let's say, the funeral or something around the funeral or getting the news, flying to Texas to see your brother after he was hospitalized. And. And. And then your digressions are just things in your life. Your marriage, your relationship with your family, your kids.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But then you're coming back to the central story, whether that's a funeral, whatever it is. And then you can land on that at the end. Because I found, like, the end was really powerful. Like, I was really struck by it. I was like, oh, man. But there might be a version where your comic relief in the middle ends up being about really just random things that are in some ways correlated to what happened on that day.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah, I thought about that in an earlier version of the show. I had, like, right before I tell that story about my grandma, I had a story about when my grandma took me and my sister to Vegas for the first time on vacation. She made us sign a notarized contract that said we wouldn't act up. And I didn't know what a notary was at the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your grandmother.

[Kevin Fredericks]

My grandma took my sister and I to Vegas and made us. She wrote a contract when you were kids? When I was a kid. Like Circus Circus.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Why would she do that?

[Kevin Fredericks]

We always. For whatever reason, she loved Vegas and she. Circus Circus was the only hotel we went to. Yeah. We would do the whole midway and then they built that dome and then they would eat at the like Caesar buffet and that would be it. She didn't gamble that I know of now. I don't know. Maybe she was. Y' all go to bed. And it was a different Ruthie. I don't know what she was on, but the first time she took me and my sister, she made us sign a notarized contract.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And said we wouldn't act up. And I thought it was interesting because it was like if we acted up, you were gonna whoop us, contract or not. So what was the reason for going through. The fact that we went. We literally did the thumbprint, went to a notary public's office, all that stuff. So I told that story right around the time I talk about her on stage. But I found that it didn't like it didn't really go anywhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

It wasn't. I don't know if it was funny enough or it didn't connect enough, but I just end up taking it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Was she at the funeral?

[Kevin Fredericks]

She was at the funeral.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So that's. That maybe is a way to.

[Kevin Fredericks]

To.

[Mike Birbiglia]

To digress out, tell a story. But you got to understand this thing about my grandmother when I was a kid, blah, blah, blah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And he circle back in.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. Yeah. And then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And ide. Like all of those component parts can come back in, in the end.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like in the final scene of the show. Like a lot of times that's how I build shows is like the final. The final scene. Let's say it has your grandmother, it has your wife, it has your sister in law, etc. And that all of that comes back in like my. Oh my God, I was dying at. The thing about your sister in law was killing me. He. He's dead. Is it? He's dead. Tori.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Tammy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's dead.

[Kevin Fredericks]

He's dead. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That made me laugh so hard. And it was actually kind of like. So it was basically like, God, do you not want to. I. I don't want to put you on the spot.

[Kevin Fredericks]

No, no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because it's part of the show. But like it was basically like your sister in law showing up at Your brother's body.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And having this very extreme reaction, for sure.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Mike, she was almost like, in funeral mode. You know, black people. We are very expressive people. And she was like. She was not happy with how he was being presented, and she was pissed. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't look right. His color's off. He's, you know, this and that. And my grandma, she just don't want to hear it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

She just. She gets sick of things quickly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

So she's like, his color's off, his color's off. And my grandma's like, he's dead, Tammy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's dead.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That's why he looks like that. And it was such a not funny thing in the moment, but later on, it was, dead, Tammy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's dead. You make this point in the show that I think is such a great point with just like, those are the funny things in life where it's like, in the moment, it's totally not funny that your grandmother's like, he's dead, Tammy.

[Kevin Fredericks]

He's dead.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But then, like a day later, like, when the. Yeah. When the. When the ice cream is melted, by the time it gets to your house or whatever, you're like, he's dead, Tammy. You know? But it's like, I love that piece of the show because it breaks apart the anatomy of what is funny and why.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the best part of comedy is, like, good comedians can find things funny where you would be like, there's no way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's nothing there.

[Kevin Fredericks]

There's nothing there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And when you. I feel like people give you extra credit if you can find the humor in that. They're like, okay, now this guy's good. This lady really knows how to. Cause I wouldn't think there's anything funny about that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah. But it's all in the like. That's why I always say people like, you know, comedy, you're getting canceled, and you can talk about anything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

You just have to be really good and really smart and willing to do a lot of work to get away with something. You gotta understand how that community acts. Who can say, what. What's punching down, what's punching up? But a lot of times people get in trouble. They just have a really lazy joke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Fredericks]

That they haven't even tried to work out, or they don't care about that community. Care to understand what makes something funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's true. And I think it's like. Like, if a comedian is pushing too far and the person defending that person is like, no, no, but look at how they land the plane, right? And they explain like, no, then he says this, then he says this and then he lands at the end. It's kind of like, oh, okay, exactly. But if they don't land, the plane is where it gets really dicey.

[Kevin Fredericks]

1,000%. And I also think part of that is there's stuff you can get away at your live show with context completely that does not translate out of context on a clip. So I think that's the disconnect between a live show and the Internet. The dicier the material it is, the more it needs to be interpreted through the lens where it was originally given.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, Support for Work and out comes from Shopify Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the US 10% of all E commerce from household names like Allbirds and Momofuku, two brands just getting started. Are you a new business owner looking to expand into e commerce? If so, you might be a little nervous about taking the punch. Is this really the right decision for me? What if I fail? That's something I think about all the time. What if no one buys anything? I think about that too. Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. And what if I get stuck? Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. Shopify is here to help you move confidently into the e commerce space. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com wio go to shopify.com wio that's shopify.com wio support for working it out comes from Pesty. Pesty is do it yourself Pest Control. Oh man. This is a special kit that includes everything you need to take care of your pest problem. The kit includes pro grade pesticide, the same stuff that the pros use, a sprayer, a mixing bag, gloves and instructions you can complete in minutes. With Pesti you can get started at 35 bucks per treatment with a customized plan based on your location, bugs and climate. With the DIY kit, there are no strangers in your house or appointments to make time for you. Do it on your own time. You want to spray for bugs at 2am, that's your own business. No judgments. Pesi gets rid of over 100 types of bugs. Spiders, ants, roaches, scorpions. Scorpions. What? Hope I don't have scorpions. Get Bugs out of your house with Pesti Go to pesti.comwio for an extra 10% off your order. That's P E S T I E.comw IO for an extra 10% off. Support for Working it out comes from Article. Article offers a curated range of mid century modern, coastal and Scandinavian inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with nearly any other article product. I was on the site and I got this gorgeous saltwater blue ottoman. It's in my living room. It's gorgeous. I also got like a little bookcase and a little rug. They all sort of have a nice matching color palette. I love this article furniture. They have a thoughtful design approach that incredibly easy to mix and match, helping you create a space that feels cohesive as well as stylish. I feel like if you went on the Article website you could spend hours there. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim that, visit article.comwio for working it out and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com wio for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit you like to contribute to? We will contribute to them and link to them in the show notes.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Oh, wow. Oh, I know. Storm DeBarge. She's a black dancer in LA. She's just starting a dance program to basically have an after school program for kids in LA to basically have somewhere to go and learn dance after school. Oh, that's great. I will find her. She's literally starting this like this week and she has a zell and I'll get that from her.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Amazing.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Because she's amazing and I think that's so important. I think after school sometimes just after school activities for kids just having something to do after school that you're looking forward to can stop so many negative aspects of crime, violence, whatever. Sometimes something as simple as dance, boxing, sports.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's fantastic. And I think like also just like I, I love it when people pick non profits where it's like a personal.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And they know. Know the person's doing a good job.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Yes. And it's like, and I know it's going to go directly to kids in la.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It'll go directly to kids. I think that's fantastic. Thanks Kev. This has been so fun.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks for coming on and I'm thrilled to see where the show goes because it's fantastic.

[Kevin Fredericks]

And I appreciate you for coming. Appreciate you for your help, the fact that you really came. I asked my team. I was like, did Mike come? And my brother in law was like, was he the white dude? And I was like, yeah, he was like, he came. Wasn't that many white dudes at the.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was me and the bartender.

[Kevin Fredericks]

So thank you. You were easily identifiable.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He was, oh yeah, he came.

[Kevin Fredericks]

I saw him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is it the white dude with the notebook in the back scribbling furiously and trying to get some light with his phone to, to write notes?

[Kevin Fredericks]

Exactly. He was like, oh, he came.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I got two pages of notes right here. It's amazing, man. It's, it's beautiful. And it's a real gift you're doing. You're giving a real gift to your audience.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Working it out.

[Kevin Fredericks]

Cause it's not done

[Mike Birbiglia]

working it out because there's no that's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Kevin on Instagram at kevonstage. You can find his book Successful Failure as well as Marriage Be Hard at your local bookstore. Check out birdbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel, ikebirbiglia. Subscribe as we are posting more and more videos. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shib Sarah and supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Hansenhoff and Bleachers for their music. They have a new album coming out soon. I love that new. They have one new song that's out right now. It's fantastic. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Sign, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio for Ma Pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy our podcast, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts where we're chasing 5,000 user reviews. Come on, we have 200 episodes. Thank you to everyone who has been a part of it. If you like the show, tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your partner, tell your spouse. Say, hey. While we're working on our relationship, one thing we could do together is listen to all 200 episodes of Mike Birbigli is Working It Out. It's where Mike Birbiguli talks about the creative process with other comedians and also sometimes his wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.