216. Wanda Sykes: Mike's Dream Guest

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out — Ep. 216: Wanda Sykes: Mike’s Dream Guest

Release date: June 15, 2026
Host: Mike Birbiglia
Guest: Wanda Sykes

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Episode Overview

In this milestone episode, Mike Birbiglia sits down with comedy legend Wanda Sykes, his self-described “dream guest,” for a wide-ranging, honest, and hilarious exchange. The conversation covers Wanda’s comedy roots in D.C., her time at the NSA, her journey to authenticity—including coming out as gay in both life and comedy—her writing career, and the art and endurance of stand-up. They also work out new joke ideas and reflect on changes in comedy, politics, and personal growth. The tone is warm, witty, and candid, peppered with anecdotes and practical advice for creators.

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Key Discussion Points and Takeaways

1. The Perks of Aging as a Comic ([00:00]–[00:39]; repeated at [19:13])

• Wanda finds freedom in being able to say “no” without guilt:
  • “When I say I don’t want to do something, I just don’t do it, you know? ...I don’t feel like I have to appease other people. I can be more honest.” (Wanda, 00:10 / 19:13)

2. Roots in D.C. Comedy ([04:11]–[07:54])

• Early Stand-Up Path:

  • Wanda and Mike both started in Washington D.C., particularly at the D.C. Improv and Comedy Cafe Garvin’s.
  • “That’s where I…I go there when I’m just putting together an hour, you know, before I take it out on the road. And then it’s like my last stop before I shoot the special.” (Wanda, 04:16)

• Giving Teenage Dave Chappelle a Ride:

  • Wanda drove a young Dave Chappelle to clubs, pretending to be his “aunt” for underage open mics.
  • “I would give him rides home…he didn’t live too far from me, which was weird.” (Wanda, 06:04)

• Transition from NSA Analyst to Stand-Up:

  • “I was bored. I was working for NSA at the time…There’s got to be more to it.” (Wanda, 06:20)

3. Finding Her Voice in Comedy ([08:01]–[08:51])

• Voice Develops Post-Divorce & Chris Rock Show:
  • “It wasn’t until after that that I said, you know what…what am I doing? I’m gonna talk about what’s really happening in my life.” (Wanda, 08:38)
  • Early days: “We all start out as doing either Seinfeld, Richard Pryor, you know, whoever you’re watching…” (Wanda, 08:26)

4. The “You Can’t Say Anything” Trope ([09:08]–[10:09])

• Both comedians call out the cliché:
  • “It’s so odd. It’s such a weird take to say that on a platform that literally goes to hundreds of millions of people.” (Mike, 09:18)
  • “I always…I go to the place of, ‘Well, what is it that you want to say?’” (Wanda, 09:43)

5. Coming Out and Family ([10:09]–[11:45])

• Wanda on Coming Out:
  • “I just wasn’t ready…my mom did say, you know, don’t talk about it.” (Wanda, 10:30; 10:40)
• Respect and Privacy:
  • “I never want to give other people…information…where they can look at my family in a bad way.” (Wanda, 10:55)

6. Surviving Bombs & Parental Doubts ([11:45]–[13:21])

• First Bomb:
  • “I bombed silly. I never should have invited them (my parents)...people like turned their chairs around…” (Wanda, 11:47)
• Mother’s Reaction:
  • “‘Don’t worry about it. You have a good government job. You are good. You don’t ever have to do this again.’” (Wanda, 12:27)
• On Resilience:
  • “Your food tastes different [after bombing].” (Wanda, 13:17)

7. Writing for The Chris Rock Show ([13:33]–[16:59])

• Getting Hired:

  • “I opened for Chris at Caroline’s…he said, ‘I might have something for you’…eventually…Chris would like for you to submit some writing samples…and got the job.” (Wanda, 13:42–14:19)

• Learning TV Writing:

  • “Everything I know about TV today, everything…and producing, I learned from being on the Chris Rock Show.” (Wanda, 14:26)

• Transition to On-Screen Performer:

  • “It was just me, you know, going, ‘Put that down. Where are you going? Get back here.’” ([15:55])

• Advice for Writers’ Rooms:

  • “Don’t say no. Have a fix for it...And that’s the thing that I learned. Being in there, because it was very collaborative.” (Wanda, 16:00–16:44)

8. Endurance, Growth, and Taking Risks in Comedy ([17:01]–[19:02])

• Why Some Comics Last and Others Don’t:
  • “A lot of people…got so comfortable with that 30 minutes or whatever hour that works. And it’s like, okay, let’s have some growth here.” (Wanda, 17:41)
• Turning Over New Hours:
  • “Once I shoot an hour, that material’s done. I need new stuff now.” (Wanda, 19:02)

9. Joke Writing Process & Collaborators ([19:43]–[20:41])

• On Line-Generating:

  • “A lot of good lines…they just come to me. Sometimes…I’ll call someone and say, ‘Hey, have you heard this before?’” (Wanda, 20:00)

• Longtime Collaborations/Friendships:

  • “I’ve known Keith [Robinson] since 87, 88. He was like my first comedy friend.” (Wanda, 20:32)

10. Life Material, Family, and Privacy ([21:22]–[22:24])

• Family Tracking:
  • Wanda shares her wife tracks her location, especially at the casino, because “I’m not good in the casino…But I enjoy it. It’s fun. Cause you know, when I’m in there, I shut everything off.” (Wanda, 21:39 & 22:10)

11. Improvising and Curb Your Enthusiasm ([22:31]–[26:41])

• Favorite Part: Cracking up Larry David
  • “Just breaking him was…the best for me.” (Wanda, 22:36)
• No Outline, Stressful Audition:
  • “He would never give me the storyline…so I had no idea what the episode was.” (Wanda, 22:58)
• Tricked into Auditioning:
  • “I was tricked into auditioning…He goes, ‘Yeah, this is who we’re going with.’” (Wanda, 25:34–25:42)
• People Expecting Her On-Screen Persona:
  • “So many times in the airport…I get it all the time. ‘Hey Wanda, cuss me out’…Then they end up kind of getting it out of me because I get pissed…They get a little bit of it, but it’s not intentional.” (Wanda, 26:01–26:34)

12. Politics and Comedy Now vs. Then ([26:41]–[30:51])

• Splitting the Room:

  • “You know what you’re getting when you come to my show.” (Wanda, 26:58)
  • “It really annoys me when they [audience members] feel like they can bully me…Now you’re going to tell me what I…can do on my show.” (Wanda, 27:12)

• Polarization Over Time:

  • “Before, you could make jokes but you could laugh at yourself…now, it’s different…MAGA doesn’t find anything funny about MAGA…they’re serious.” (Wanda, 27:55)
  • “I believe that people love the country more than what I’m seeing now.” (Wanda, 37:57)

• Restoring American Values:

  • “We have to…if not, I’m just going back to the casino and just…I’m all in.” (Wanda, 30:55)

13. Passion & New Projects—The Movie “Undercard” ([33:46]–[35:32])

• Working with a Passionate Director:
  • “Her passion about the project…she just knew exactly how she wanted this thing to look…and it made me better.” (Wanda, 33:46–34:59)
• Crew Inspiration:
  • “I’ve never seen a crew just so passionate and wanting to get the job done…It made me better.” (Wanda, 34:59–35:26)

14. Stand-Up Evolution & Influences ([35:32]–[36:40])

• Acting Influences Stand-Up:

  • “Way more awareness…really trying to bring the bit or the story to life. I’m way more animated now.” (Wanda, 35:43)

• On Conveying Bits Effectively:

  • Mike: “Sometimes if a bit’s not working, it’s like you have a thing in your head, and they…you’re not able to convey it. Try a different way, try a different word, try a different physicality.” ([36:13])

15. Admiration & Changing Beliefs ([36:40]–[38:35])

• On Envy and Admiration:

  • “It’s not a jealousy. I think it’s more envy. Jane Fonda is a pretty incredible person.” (Wanda, 36:52)

• Shifting Perspectives:

  • “I really didn’t believe that we could go this far, that people would be this…You know, I believe that people love the country more than what I’m seeing now.” (Wanda, 37:57)

16. Hometown, Legacy, and Advice ([38:45]–[41:14])

• Returning to Her College for Special:

  • “I didn’t imagine that I could, you know, that I would have been performing on that stage.” (Wanda, 38:52)

• Best Advice from Chris Rock:

  • “Chris Rock gave me the advice to make your special…special. Don’t get up and do a set. Make it special. And I’ve always used that.” (Wanda, 40:18)

17. Being Inauthentic, Coming Out on Stage, and Finding Authenticity ([40:31]–[41:59])

• Closeted Years:
  • “I probably was when I…was closeted…Although I wasn’t on stage saying about, ‘Oh, I love men’ or anything…I just wasn’t ready.” (Wanda, 40:38)
• Coming Out at Prop 8 Rally:
  • “That’s where I came out at a rally, and I was like, oh, well, I’m out, so might as well talk about it on stage now.” (Wanda, 41:37)

18. Working Out New Material, Clubs, and Collaborators ([42:06]–[45:20])

• Working Out Jokes:
  • “I did think of something yesterday…I would crush being white.” (Wanda, 42:09)
  • “I started in a club…my friend Bruce Daniels has this show Drunk on Stage…So I’ll pop in there and do like 15 minutes.” (Wanda, 44:42)

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• “Your food tastes different [after bombing].”
  — Wanda Sykes, on recovering from a bad set ([13:17])

• “Make your special…special. Don’t get up and do a set. Make it special.”
  — Chris Rock’s advice to Wanda ([40:18])

• “If you’re passionate about your work, it makes the people around you want to be involved too.”
  — Mike quoting Wanda ([33:46])

• “Sometimes if a bit’s not working, it’s like you have a thing in your head and they just don’t…try a different word, try a different physicality.”
  — Mike ([36:13])

• “I would crush being white.”
  — Wanda suggests a new bit she’s considering ([42:09])

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Aging and Honesty: [00:10] / [19:13]
• Early D.C. Stand-Up Roots & Chappelle: [04:11]–[06:09]
• First Time on Stage: [06:20]–[07:54]
• Finding Her Voice: [08:07]–[08:51]
• View on “You Can’t Say Anything”: [09:08]–[10:09]
• Coming Out: [10:09]–[11:45]
• Bombing & Parental Reactions: [11:45]–[13:21]
• Chris Rock Show: [13:33]–[16:59]
• Endurance & Growth in Comedy: [17:01]–[19:02]
• Joke Generating, Keith Robinson: [20:00]–[21:16]
• Curb Your Enthusiasm: [22:31]–[26:41]
• Politics and Polarization: [26:41]–[30:51]
• Movie “Undercard”: [33:46]–[35:32]
• Best Advice (“make it special”): [40:18]
• Coming Out at Prop 8 Rally: [41:37]
• Testing New Jokes: [42:06]–[45:20]

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Tone and Vibe

The episode is candid, friendly, and insightful, full of laughter and shared respect. Both comedians are open about vulnerability and craft, supporting each other in discussing uncomfortable topics (bombing, coming out, political polarization), and always steering back to the joy and necessity of personal and artistic growth.

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Causes & Follow-Up

Featured nonprofit:

• Ruth Ellis Center — Creating a supportive environment for LGBTQ+ youth ([link mentioned at 48:53])

Wanda Sykes’s special:

• Legacy on Netflix

Movie:

• Undercard available on VOD

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This summary aims to capture all the episode's major insights, memorable lines, and the flow of the conversation, with timestamps for context and easy reference.

Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've talked about in your special about all the hard things about getting older. But like, what's it, what's a surprisingly pleasant thing about getting older?

[Wanda Sykes]

Ooh, it's for me, when I say I don't want to do something, I just don't do it, you know? Sure, yeah. Right now it's like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't feel like I have to, you know, appease other people. I don't feel, yeah, I can, I can be, I can be more honest. And yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Wanda Sykes. Wanda Sykes, everybody. She is a legend. I have wanted her to come on this podcast since we started it almost exactly six years ago. It was like I made a list of people who would be my dream guests for this show and she was like on the 10 or whatever and. And somehow six years later, we got her very excited. She, of course, is one of the great stand up comedians. She was one of the original writers on the Chris Rock show in the 90s. She and I both started out in D.C. talk about that today. We even work out some jokes as sort of a dream sequence of things that happen today. By the way, thanks to all the Working It Out Premium subscribers, it is building and building. Usually just came up with a new idea the other day called Suggestion Box. We're going to do an episode called Suggestion Box. If you email your audio voice recorded suggestion for the show, the thing that you're most critical about with, with Working it out, the thing you like and the thing you like most about the show and, and then what you would suggest we do differently. Email that to workingitoutpodmail.com and we're gonna have just an episode where we frankly discuss what could we do, what could we not do, what are our limitations and what are the possibilities. And then we're gonna put it out there for the Working It Up Premium subscribers. We just did one with my favorite improviser, Liz Allen. She was the improv coach for Don't Think Twice and we had a great one with her recently. That's over at Working It Out Premium. If you sign up on Apple Podcasts, it's 4.99amonth and you get no ads whenever you listen to the podcast. So if you hate ads, that is the service for you. By the way, you can watch the full episode of this podcast on YouTube. Oh, also the video is now on Spotify. That's a whole thing, apparently. So. So if you want to watch the video on Spotify, it's over there, too. And apparently coming soon on Apple Podcasts as well, the video. So stay tuned for all that. We're just doing the show. We will continue to do the show as best we can. And we're just going to try to roll with the punches of the various mega businesses at Apple and Spotify and all these places that. That are trying to. Clearly trying to monetize in, like, a zillion different ways that I'm sure doesn't benefit anyone except themselves. But we just love doing our show. That's the most important thing. We really appreciate you listening and watching. I'm really excited to bring this talk with Wanda Sykes to you today. We talk about her new special, which is called Legacy. It's on Netflix. We talk about her coming out of the closet many years ago. We talk about how before she did comedy, she worked at the nsa, of all places. Just a fascinating life story and incredible career. Enjoy my conversation with the great Wanda Sykes. I followed you for so long because I started as a door person in D.C. the Washington, D.C. improv. I remember because it was the late 90s. You used to come there.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All the time. And you still stop in there.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah, yeah. That's where I. I go there when I'm just putting together an hour, you know, before I take it out on the. On the road. And then I. It's like my last stop before I shoot the special.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. There's something about that comedy room that is so. The alchemy of it is just works for comedy.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you can't even put your finger on it. No, because I remember, like, that's where I started. And then I would go, like, that was, like, the first place I played. I opened for. It was like 1997. I opened for Chappelle.

[Wanda Sykes]

Okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

At that point, he was a headliner. He was like, 24. And I was like, 19. And I was like, oh, my God, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna be great. And then it's like. And then I went to other clubs. I'm like, oh, okay. It's not as good.

[Wanda Sykes]

It's not as good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's not as good as this.

[Wanda Sykes]

Exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's something about certain comedy rooms where you go, like, oh, it's friendly to comedians.

[Wanda Sykes]

And then you take a trip to, like, Roanoke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. And you're like, all right. Right. This is what it's like, too. Did you start in D.C. yeah, started in D.C. and at that time, like, I read a story. Where did you. Did you take Dave to, like, open mics? When he was, like, a teenager.

[Wanda Sykes]

Every now and then, right, when. If Dave's mom couldn't make it to the club, then he would ask me, he said, can you just, you know, say that you're my aunt and. And that, you know, like, you're my guardian tonight? And I was like, yeah, Dave, sure, whatever. And also I would give him rides home.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. Cause he didn't at that time, he didn't live too far from me, which was weird.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you started in D.C. like, Comedy Cafe Garvin's. What got you to do it? To, like, take the plunge into doing mics.

[Wanda Sykes]

It was so bizarre how I got into it, but basically I was bored. I was working for NSA at the time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's the interesting thing.

[Wanda Sykes]

I was working for NSA at the time, and I just felt like, this is not what I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm not gonna retire from this. I'm not gonna work here, you know, 20, 30 years and retire, and that's it. There's got to be more to it. And I think it was kys W ky. Well, they were having a. Some talent competition, whatever, and they said comedy was a category.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

So I just. I said, you know, I'm going to write some jokes and try it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I was just.

[Wanda Sykes]

Just that. Just naive and, you know, never been to a comedy club. Yeah, I've just, you know, watched comics on tv, but never been in the. In the room. And I wrote jokes and the guys was like, yeah, I'll put you on. And it went well. Tony woods won.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, nice.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah, Tony woods won. But Legend. I did well. Yeah, I did well enough. And Andy Evans was hosting, and he. He was like, who are you and where.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where are you from? Like this, like, the first time you did it.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes, that was the first time he was. I haven't seen you in the clubs or anything. What's. What. Who are you? You know? And he then, you know, took me around to the clubs.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. Took me to Comedy Cafe Garvin's. And that's when I found out that, oh, this could go horribly wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. You know, totally right. Because every room is kind of different from each other.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

When did you have a sense of, like, how long did it take you to find your voice?

[Wanda Sykes]

Oh, God, probably right after my divorce. I was working at the Chris Rock Show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Actually writing on that. And so even then, I was still doing what I thought, you know, my idea of a. Of a comic. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Wanda Sykes]

I think we all kind of Start out as doing either Seinfeld, Richard Prior, you know, whoever you're watching. Yeah. Whoever you're watching.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You.

[Wanda Sykes]

You kind of, like, morph into that person. But it wasn't until after that that I said, you know what, Bumper? What am I doing? I'm. I'm going to talk about what's really happening.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

In my life. Let me talk about. About me, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

So I was like, oh, let's talk about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's one. I love your special, and it's refreshing that you're not going to the you can't say anything anymore trope that's in so many specials now.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't get it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so strange to me.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right. Because you can. You can.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It's so odd. It's such a weird take.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

To be like. To say that on a platform that literally goes to hundreds of millions of people. And also, like, I have to say. And people could probably contradict me, but, like, I've never heard of Netflix even giving people a note. No, I've never heard of it.

[Wanda Sykes]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And certainly not the people who are saying that.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right, Exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Not those comments. Not saying shit.

[Wanda Sykes]

Not giving them notes at all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No.

[Wanda Sykes]

I always. I go to the place of. Well, what is it that you want to say?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. What's that.

[Wanda Sykes]

What is that thing?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

It must be quite awful. What? I'm like, just say it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just whisper my ear. Whisper in my ear, and then I'll tell you if it's.

[Wanda Sykes]

Write it down.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Write it down.

[Wanda Sykes]

Slip it to me, and. And I'm sure we will go. Oh, you can say that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I think you'll be all right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

No big deal. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're in that great documentary, Outstanding on Netflix that's about gay and lesbian comedians and trans comedians. And you were in the closet and then you started talking about it and people told you not to.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't think people told me not to. I think it was. I just wasn't ready.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know, I just. I just wasn't comfortable enough.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I mean. Well, actually, I take that back. My mom did say, you know, don't talk about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was very much like my dad. Not with being gay, but a lot of things.

[Wanda Sykes]

A lot of things.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I'm sure there's other, you know, like, there's other things that my parents would probably be like, can you wait till we. Out of here? Of course. Before you talk about stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know. Yeah. And you do that, you know, respect my respect. My family and I never want to give some. Give other people, especially people I don't know and don't care about information or just something where they can look at, you know, my family in a bad way. Because that's totally not the case. But you can see how people can know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But that's not the goal.

[Wanda Sykes]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So, no, that's how I, that was like my relationship with my dad. He never wanted me to be a comic. And it would, it was similar. It would just be like, don't talk about personal stuff. And, you know, after a certain point, I feel like in comedy you realize, like, you're not hiding anything from anybody. No. They can kind of tell what your whole deal is. But like, did your parents, would they come to your shows when you're starting out?

[Wanda Sykes]

They came to one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

And I bombed silly. I never should have invited them because I just started out, I didn't know what I was doing. So, I mean, it was horrible, horrible bombing where people, like turned their chairs around, you know, D.C. people. It's. Yeah, sure. Sometimes they don't even have to boo. It's just the thing of. They're just annoyed with you, you know, like an old woman was like, oh, God. Just kind of turned her chair around. You're like, oh, okay. And I remember my mother going, don't worry about it. You have a good government job. You are good. Don't. You don't ever have to do this again. Don't worry about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Wanda Sykes]

And she didn't know, like, this is. That you have to do this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

This is the only thing I want to do. This is what I want to do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is something that's really funny about stand up is that when people don't like it, it is, it hurts so much. The thing you're describing, the physicality of people just kind of.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so real to, to like speak your truth and have people turn around. There's nothing like that.

[Wanda Sykes]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's part of the reason why comedians are so tough.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, we're tough skinned because we live through like these rejections that are like, you can't compare that to anything.

[Wanda Sykes]

But it hurts. It hurts. I mean, you, you can't sleep.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right. Your food tastes different.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your food tastes different. Yeah, yeah. No, it's your whole.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah, you get a good show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. You're always just waiting for the next good show. So you wrote for Chris Rock. Was that like you moved to New York and then was that your first writing job.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. Write real writing. That's huge. I know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And do you get it from just cold submission? Do you know Chris.

[Wanda Sykes]

I opened for Chris when he. At Caroline's, and he was just about to shoot Bring the Pain.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

And he, you know, was like, hey, you're funny. I really, really like your stuff. I'm like, oh, wow. Thanks, Chris. He said, I might have something for you. I'm like, okay. And of course, you know, time passes and his special blows up and all. And eventually, I did get a call and said, hey, Chris would like for you to submit some writing samples. And I put together a packet and got the job.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What did you learn in being, like, in a writer's room?

[Wanda Sykes]

Everything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Really.

[Wanda Sykes]

Everything I know about TV today, everything. And producing, I learned from being on the Chris Rock Show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. Everything. Just, you know, writing bits, writing, you know, sketches, producing pieces and having all those things in mind as far as, like, locations and casting, editing. First time. I've never done editing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were on the show, too, right? Yeah. Cause I remember seeing you in sketches on the show.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right. That was by accident, I guess, just circumstance, because we had booked a crew to shoot other pieces, and the producer, being a good producer, was like, hey, we have four hours left on the crew. You guys have anything? Anything we can shoot quickly, like in the office we need. And two of the guys, they wrote a bit video Mama, where it's, you know, you put a videotape in and it's someone watching your kids for you on tape. So it was like, wanda, you do it. And I'm like, I. I'm not in front of the camera. Said, no, come on, do it, do it. And it was just me, you know, going, put that down. You know, hey, where are you going? Get back here. You know, it was just me yelling at kids, watching tv.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Wanda Sykes]

And that's when they said, okay, we're gonna put her in more. More stuff. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think is, like, the best quality of, like, a writer in a writer's room?

[Wanda Sykes]

I think, being able to listen and just don't say no. Have a fix for it, you know, like, if you're not getting anywhere, if it's. You just keep saying no, Right. If you're trying to, you know, a joke or a bit. And if I don't get it, I'm going to ask you, what is it that you're trying to do? What's the thing? Right. Tell me what. You know, what's the. What's the thing? What's the bit. Right. And then I can help get you to where that bit is where kind of makes. Makes sense, you know, But. And that's the thing that I learned.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Being in there, because it was very collaborative. You know, Chris would come in and say, you know, I think we should have more of this in this bit. And it's like, okay. Why? Okay, I get it. All right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

How about we try it this way?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One of the things that sticks out about your career is, like, you've been successful in comedy for so long. And, like, you know, I've been in comedy, like, 27 years, and, like, you see people drop out. You know, you've probably seen tons of your peers just drop out, and it's like, what do you think is part of the endurance of people in comedy who are able to do it so

[Wanda Sykes]

long and so well, other than just sticking with it, but also take some risk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know, write.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

New jokes. A lot of people, they just. I don't know, they just got so comfortable. And that 30 minutes or whatever hour that works.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

And it's like, okay, let's. Let's. Let's. Some growth here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I like to think that. That there's. That there's growth and that my fan base can see that they're along for the ride. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's interesting. Like, I feel like since the 2000s, it's like a different era in comedy than it was like in, you know, the 80s. Like, Seinfeld would talk about how, like, people would have an hour and they would just tour right with it for 20 years and just hone this hour. And it's like, probably around 2,000 or so, it started to be like, no, no. What's your next hour?

[Wanda Sykes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it really put a pressure on us, but as comics. But in some ways, it's good. It's good. It's exactly what you're saying. It's good to turn over another hour. Like, what else are you thinking about?

[Wanda Sykes]

Jay Leno would always tell me. He was like, you guys, I don't understand it. Why shoot an hour? Because, you know, you could just live on that forever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Why are you doing.

[Wanda Sykes]

I was like, it just doesn't enter that. That's not what. What fuels me. I. You know, that's not my drive to keep telling the same joke every now and then. You know, like, for me, once I shoot an hour, that. That material's done, I'm. I'm. I gotta.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I need new stuff now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, you've talked about in your special about all the hard things about getting older. But, like, what's it. What's a surprisingly pleasant thing about getting older?

[Wanda Sykes]

Ooh, it's for me, when I say I don't want to do something, I just don't do it, you know? Sure. Yeah. Right now it's like, no, I don't want. I don't want to do that. I don't feel like I have to, you know, appease other people. I don't. I can. I can be. I can be more honest. And, yeah, I've lost that. You know, that. That fomo.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't. Nah, I don't need to go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I love the line from your special, the only time white women work together is synchronized swimming. Does a line like that come to you, or are you always, like, walking around with a notebook? Like, how. How do you. How do things, like, germinate?

[Wanda Sykes]

Oh, a lot of good lines. Just. Just things. They just come to me sometimes to the point where I'll call someone and say, hey, have you heard this before?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Because it just came to me so easily. Keith Robinson. I do that a lot with him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I'll call him. Hey, man. Does this. And he's like, no, I haven't. I hate. And I hate that you thought of it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I hate that you thought of that. He's immediately resentful.

[Wanda Sykes]

Immediately.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've been friends with Keith forever.

[Wanda Sykes]

Forever. Yeah, forever. I've known Keith since 87. 88. He was the one, like, my first comedy friend, other than, you know. You meet him in Philly Evans? No, I met him. He was in D.C. a group of Philly comedies came to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, no kidding.

[Wanda Sykes]

D.C. and, yeah, he tried to hit on me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure. Sure he is. He's one of those people. If people haven't seen his Netflix, recent Netflix special is so good.

[Wanda Sykes]

So good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He is funnier by the year and two strokes into his life. And it's painful to admit that he is funnier because he gives everyone else so much shit.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yep.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That it's hard to give him a compliment, but he is. He's unbelievable.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're talking. You're special about how your wife hates when you're at the casino. Cause you track each other.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. No, no, no. She tracks me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, she don't track her.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't. I don't. I don't track her.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So she. So she doesn't like it when you're at the casino. Why? Why wouldn't you like you at the casino?

[Wanda Sykes]

Oh, I'm not good in the casino. You're bad. Oh, my.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You lose a lot of money?

[Wanda Sykes]

Not a lot of money. Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't lose a lot of money like, where I'm not, you know, in church on Sunday. Go. I'm a little short this Sunday, guys.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Hey, the book says the split aces, you know, we know how you feel about book and follow the book. No, it's not that bad. But I do. I enjoy it. It's fun. Cause, you know, when I'm in there, I shut everything off.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. You're just looking at those little wheels go around, or you just wait for the next car. It's all the lights and noise. So to me, it's a great distraction and stress relief. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was it? What's your favorite and least favorite thing about improvising with Larry David on Curb?

[Wanda Sykes]

My favorite thing was when I could crack him up. Yeah, that was the best.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that laugh.

[Wanda Sykes]

I would love just watching him lose it or try not to, you know, lose it and try. Yeah, Just breaking him was. Was, like, the best for me. What was the most stressful was, you know, he would never give me the storyline.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, really?

[Wanda Sykes]

No. I know other people got to see the. You know, I didn't get the outline. All I got was whatever information he needed for me to say in that particular scene. So I had no idea what the episode was. So he would say, okay, all I need you to say in this scene is you got this perfume from. Or Cheryl had to pick up this perfume from someplace.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

So just, like, little story points. But then we would just. We would just riff, you know, just improv and get me. It's Larry David. I wanted.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of course. You want to be great.

[Wanda Sykes]

I want to be great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right. So that was stressful, but. But for me, just. Yeah, breaking him was the best.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How did you end up on the show? Did you audition for the show or he just thought of you?

[Wanda Sykes]

I was friends. I'm friends with one of the producers at the time. Sandy was a producer on the show. Sandy produced some of Chris's specials, so that's how. While she was around, so. And we talked about how much we loved the show Curb. And she said, you'd be great on the show. Yeah, you should come over and audition. I was like, I can't audition. I was like, I'm the worst at auditioning. I never get anything that I'll audition for. It's just. I can't do it. And she's like, okay. Well, she said, well, you got to meet Larry one day. I said, I would love to meet him, but. So she called me up. She said, hey, we're shooting around the corner at this. At this car dealership, Toyota dealership. Come over and you can meet Larry.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

And I was like, just. I'm just gonna come to meet him. She said, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just. Just to meet him. Don't worry about it. So I get over there, and there's, like, five black women sitting in the. You know, in the dealership. I'm like, are they just giving. Giving away Toyotas to the sisters today? I mean, is it a sale? You know? And she's like, no, no, just don't. Don't worry about them. Just. Just come on in. So I walk in, and Larry goes, hey, I know that tush anywhere. And I was like, excuse me. What? You know, and it turned into. We were. It was an audition.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's ridiculous.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. And he goes, yeah, this is who we're going with.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Absurd story.

[Wanda Sykes]

This is who we're going with. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You got tricked into auditioning.

[Wanda Sykes]

Tricked into auditioning.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who gets tricked into auditioning? I've never heard of that ever.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's wild.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. And I'm. I'm grateful that she did that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do people think because your character is, like, outgoing on that show that you'll be like that in life? Like, do people expect that from you?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you find. Are you disappointing to people?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have to explain that to people. Like, I'm not.

[Wanda Sykes]

Like, I'm not crazy like that. That's. Yeah, yeah. So many times in the airport. I get it all the time in the airport. Hey, Wanda, cuss me out or, you know, come on, say something. Be mean to me. I'm like, why? I don't know you? Or they on the phone, hey, it's my dad. Call him a motherfucker. Say something like, I don't know your father. And then they end up kind of getting it out of me because I get pissed that you're asking me this. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with y'?

[Mike Birbiglia]

All?

[Wanda Sykes]

And that, you know? So they get a little bit of it, but it's not intentional.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, when you do political stuff, do you ever find it splits the room when you tour?

[Wanda Sykes]

Oh, sure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you like it. Do you like it when a joke splits the room?

[Wanda Sykes]

I do. Because you know what you're getting when you come to my show?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know what you're in for?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of course.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right. So it Wouldn't split the room, but let's say a little chunk. You can hear, you know, a few people getting disgruntled and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Wanda Sykes]

Like, come on, enough of the politics.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Wanda Sykes]

And that's. That really annoys me when they feel like they can bully me. You know, it's like you're doing the exact thing that we're, you know, up in arms about. You're. You're. Now you're going to tell me what I try to dictate what I can do on my show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know, it's the whole, like, what I like, supersedes what you, Your, you know, your desires. It's. Yeah, it's that it is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you find. Because you've been doing political stuff for a long time, do you find the reaction politically is more polarizing than it was 20 years ago with crowds?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes. Now it is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Before, you could make jokes, but you could laugh at yourself. You know, like, I could do jokes about something on the Right. And all right. You know, they might not be like, okay, that's a good joke. Yeah, totally not gonna. But okay, they're okay with it. And the same thing, I would make jokes, you know, I did jokes about Obama and people, you know, laugh, whatever. But now it is. It's different. They are just. If they're in, they're in. They, you know, MAGA doesn't find anything funny about, you know, maga. They're serious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, yeah, yeah. They seem very serious. Do you think there's gonna be like a break of this thing? Does the fever ever break?

[Wanda Sykes]

Don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The fear. You know what I mean?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, because I. That's how I feel. Like, I used to. I remember, like, in the 2000s, like, I would do every now and then I would do like a George Bush joke about the Iraq war or whatever it was. And you could get people, right. You could. You could get people in. In the south or the Midwest and. And it's exactly what you were describing. They would give you this look, like, I don't agree with you, but that's pretty funny. What are you going to do? That's. Right now it's like, you don't get a lot of that look anymore. No, no, it's like, yeah, there is a thing, but I think it breaks at some point.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't know. I think they are so in it that it's hard to come to come out of it. Because then now you're gonna have to admit that you, you know, made a

[Mike Birbiglia]

mistake for a lot a Lot. A lot of years. That's true.

[Wanda Sykes]

You gotta admit that I. That you were duped. That you fell for it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. But then maybe. Maybe someone else wins in 28. And then it just becomes the kind of. Thou not speaketh of that one thing culturally. You know what I mean? And then we go, okay, that was a thing.

[Wanda Sykes]

No, we have to. Not only do we have to speak about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Wanda Sykes]

It needs investigated.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. We gotta reverse the corruption.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cause you have to undo the corruption.

[Wanda Sykes]

Cause we can't be back in this situation again.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wanda, I need you. Just for the good of the country, I need you to get involved and fix a lot of this stuff.

[Wanda Sykes]

I gotta fix a lot. I think you know what it is? It's not. It's all of us. All of us have to. To me, that's the only way to fix this. It has to be. It can't come from one group.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

It has to be a diverse group of us.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

To fix it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you feel optimistic about that?

[Wanda Sykes]

We have to, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no. I get it, yo.

[Wanda Sykes]

For real, man. Cause if.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I get it.

[Wanda Sykes]

If. Cause if not, I'm just gonna go back to the casino and just. I'm all in. I'm gonna get this shit right. Yeah. What about my college education? Your eye?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who?

[Wanda Sykes]

You're not going to. I'm betting it all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

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[Wanda Sykes]

For me, what helped me was when I. When I shot this movie, this drama, I just did undercard, just from the director, Tameka Miller. Her passion about the project and all the. I mean, the effort that she put into it, the preparation, I mean, she had, you know, the storyboards, and she just knew exactly how she wanted this thing to look and how she would pour into me as far as, you know, the confidence that she had in me that I could. I could, you know, pull this off. And then going into the. It's a boxing movie, so I had to train and get into boxing. Right? And then being in that environment, I. It's like, wow, these people are really into boxing. You know, like, they. And just that energy. I was like this. Then this makes me want to, you know, seriously get into it and take it seriously. And I found a love for it also, you know, or I got headgear and shit.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow. It's crazy.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No kidding.

[Wanda Sykes]

And that's far. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Yeah. And then, you know, we go to set and we start filming this movie. The crew. The crew, they were into it. I've never seen a crew just so passionate and wanting to get the job done and, you know, you know, cruise crews, you know, they. Hanging around sometimes or. But everyone. I did not see anyone like, standing still.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was.

[Wanda Sykes]

Everybody was just so behind it. So I was like, okay, now I. I'm. It made me better.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you feel like. Because at this point, like, you've acted in so many things, it's like. Do you feel like all that, like, spills back into your stand up?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I'm way, I mean, aware. Way more awareness of, like, really trying to bring the bit or the story to life. Yeah, I'm way more animated now, you know, way more like in physical comedy, because it's just now I'm seeing it and I know what I want the audience to see or the world I'm trying to set for them. So, yeah, it definitely does help.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was like one of the best pieces of advice I got when I was starting out at the door at the DC Improv, where I opened for Jake Johansson once. And he goes like, sometimes if a bit's not working, it's like you have a thing in your head and they just don't. You're not able to convey it.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So it's like, try a different way, try a different word, try a different physicality. And that really stuck with me. Who are you jealous of?

[Wanda Sykes]

Who am I jealous of? Ooh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh,

[Wanda Sykes]

that's a good one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The follow up question is, who are you jealous of that you thought of but didn't say?

[Wanda Sykes]

Ah, you know, it's not jealous. It's not a jealousy. I think it's more envy. Jane Fonda is a pretty incredible person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes. Impressive.

[Wanda Sykes]

He's an impressive woman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, she.

[Wanda Sykes]

And the thing I love about her is she's constantly trying to be better. I mean, I'm like, damn, Jane, you're what? Like a. You're already 100. I don't know how, but, you know, you're good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, like, take a break. Yeah. She's done a lot.

[Wanda Sykes]

She's done so much, but she's always, like, looking for the next thing or trying to educate herself in another, you know, space or whatever. So I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She's also.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't know if I had that kind of energy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She's also sort of lived a thousand lives.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like so many.

[Wanda Sykes]

She will reinvent herself.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. What's something that you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now?

[Wanda Sykes]

Well, I mean, yeah, I didn't. I really didn't believe that. That we could go this far, that people would be this. You know, I just. I believe that people love the country more than what I'm seeing now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know, I thought people. I thought There was enough people who will put country first. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, that they believed in the principles of the country and not the kind of cult of the country.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right. Yeah, absolutely.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah. What.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What about, like, because you. The special is at your college. Talk about how you used to sit in those seats.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's like, what do you think you feel. What do you think differently from when you were sitting in those seats at your college?

[Wanda Sykes]

Well, from sitting at. Sitting in those seats. I. I didn't imagine that I could, you know, that I would have been performing on that stage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

Never. Not. Wouldn't have managed imagine that. Because I grew up in such a traditional, you know, upbringing and, you know, my dad was in military and, you know, so I didn't. I didn't know anyone who was in show business, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

So. Yeah. And I didn't think that happens. You know, you would think that that only happens out in LA or New York.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I found that to be. I grew up in central Massachusetts and I. Yeah. Similar. I didn't know anyone in show business. It was. It was even strange moving to New York or even, like, going to the DC Improv for the first time ago. Oh, my God, that's Dave Chappelle. That's, you know, Jake Johansson. Like, these are people I see on Letterman.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It's so odd, even just that. Yeah. Making that change from, like, watching this thing from afar to being like. Yeah, I could do that.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Very.

[Wanda Sykes]

The audacity. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The audacity.

[Wanda Sykes]

Think that we could do that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The delusion of it. Yeah. That I should be doing that.

[Wanda Sykes]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?

[Wanda Sykes]

I would say Chris Rock gave me the advice to make your special. Special. Don't get up and do a set. Make it special. And I've.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's really nice.

[Wanda Sykes]

Always use that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Can you remember a time in your life when you were an inauthentic version of yourself?

[Wanda Sykes]

Probably was when I, you know, was closeted.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I would say. Yeah. Although I wasn't on stage saying about, oh, I love men or anything. I just wasn't talking about it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Wanda Sykes]

Although there was some things I, you know, probably wanted to talk about, but just. I just wasn't ready. So I guess that's still not being. That's still being authentic because I just. I wasn't ready. Right, right. I was still being me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have that great joke. Men are people. Go, men are dogs. No, they're not. Dogs are loyal.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait did you come out in your comedy career, like, after you had started doing standup?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yes, it was the Imma Be Me special.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

That's when I really started talking about it. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Was it a lot when. When you talked about it on stage for the first time? Because very few people have that experience of coming out.

[Wanda Sykes]

No, I felt good because I came out at the. As a rally. It was the Prop 8, the protest, the National Day of Protest because Prop 8 passed. And that's where I came out at a rally, and I was like, oh, well, I'm out, so might as well talk about it on stage now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is there any material that you have that you're thinking about for your next special that you haven't? That. That's early.

[Wanda Sykes]

Oh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like any seed of anything.

[Wanda Sykes]

I did think of something yesterday. I don't even know if this is a bit yet, but I wrote down, I would crush being white.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's funny.

[Wanda Sykes]

You know, like, sure. I was like, I don't understand being white. You should be crushing it. Like. Like, oh, man, I would kill it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, sure.

[Wanda Sykes]

I mean, really, Like, I could be president.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I would kill it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I would be that good. Of course you would.

[Wanda Sykes]

Boy, it depends on how, you know. Then I thought about how I want to use it, but I want to be, you know, be that white where I go and try to be, you know, great for everyone and make life good for everyone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

But then again, it probably feels good to be just selfish and just, you know, just be me, me, me. Kill it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had a similar train of thought the other day about how if you're a white man and you're not succeeding during the Trump administration, then something's wrong. Something's wrong. The pit boss is. The pit boss is pushing it all in your favor. They're looking away while you're cheating. I mean, like, everything is working in your favor. These are. These are winning conditions.

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The refs. The refs are looking away.

[Wanda Sykes]

Looking away. Not calling any fouls. You're good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I wrote down this thing the other day. I had this memory that I jotted down, which is when I was a kid, we never had a gun. But one time my dad said to me, he goes, I was out to dinner with my friend Roy, and we decided that we were going to buy guns, and if either of us is ever in a vegetative state, we're going to promise to kill the other person. And. And then he goes, what do you think of that idea? And I was thinking I'm 12 years old. I'm mostly thinking about whether we're going to have gym class Friday and whether I should bring my shorts to school or whether I should wear my shorts under my school clothes and then take off my school clothes when we go to gym and put them back on. But yeah, I think you and your friend Roy should kill each other if that happens.

[Wanda Sykes]

Oh, that's great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know how sometimes you just have a, just like a random flash from childhood and you go, that's gotta be something, right?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tell me this, how do you work out? New jokes? Do you go to clubs?

[Wanda Sykes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where do you go?

[Wanda Sykes]

I started in a club, you know, actually out in la. My friend Bruce Daniels, he has this show drunk on stage and it's this little dive bar. Oh, that's fun act bar. And there's a, he has a room on Tuesday nights. So I'll pop in there and do like 15 minutes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fantastic.

[Wanda Sykes]

Or you know, I haven't been in the city in a while but you know, I would go to the Comedy Cellar and a lot of times I would just book a weekend so I can get, you know, at least four or five swings at it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Wanda Sykes]

And just work it out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, work it out. Working it out is supported by Helix. Helix makes award winning sleep products tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Helix offers a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. 120 nights. I've been a Helix customer myself for many years, since the beginning of this podcast almost six years ago. Everyone on the staff here at Working it out has a Helix mattress. We all really love them. And Helix makes the best mattress I've ever slept on. And I've slept on a lot of mattresses. I travel quite a bit, stay in a lot of hotels. Traveling actually can be hard. If I could bring my Helix mattress with me on tour, I would. You can also rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new Mattress. Go to helixsleep.com for 20% off sitewide. That sleep.com/bigs for 20% off site wide. Helixsleep.com support for working out comes from Warby Parker. It's summertime. Do you need sunglasses? Check out Warby Parker. I knew it. I knew it. Great selection of sunglasses. Prescription glasses start at just 95. Am I reading this correctly? That's for the frame and the lenses. I know you're probably thinking, what's the catch are $95 glasses any good? Have you ever looked through a Warby Parker window when you're walk walking around your neighborhood? They look amazing. Warby Parker has an amazing virtual try on. You can try their glasses on in the comfort of your own home. It's actually wild how well the virtual try on works. You can do it any time of day. Let's say it's 3am you can't sleep because you're stressed out about getting new glasses. Try them on right at 3am right in your apartment right now. Buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs at warbyparker.com that's 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at Warb B Y P A R K E R.com Prabygs warbyparker.com Prabygs support for working it out comes from NOCD. NOCD is the world's leading provider of OCD treatment. It's covered by insurance for over 138 million Americans. All their licensed therapists specialize in ERP therapy and will help you learn to take the power away from intrusive thoughts in live face to face virtual sessions. They also provide support between sessions when you need it most so you're never facing OCD alone. For some people, a what if isn't just a passing thought, it's a loop that you can't even get out of. And no matter what you do to try to feel better, reassuring yourself, replaying, researching the thought just keeps coming back. That can actually be ocd, not the organizing stereotype. Real OCD is persistent, unwanted, intrusive thoughts that feel totally out of character, along with mental or physical behaviors that you feel driven to do to get relief. These thoughts can be very real, which is what makes them so upsetting. So if you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started. Learn.nocd.com Mike. The final thing we do is working it out for a cause. If there's a nonprofit you like to contribute to, we will link to the them in the show notes and I'll contribute to them. The Ruth Ellis Center Ruth Ellis Center.org Named in honor of a resilient Detroit icon, Ruth Ellis, the Ruth Ellis center works to create a supportive environment and community for LGBTQ plus young people. Well that's awesome. We will contribute. We'll link to them in the show notes. Wanda Sykes Such an honor. It's so great to meet you And I've just loved your comedy for so long. Thanks man.

[Wanda Sykes]

Mutual. Appreciate it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Working It Out. Cause it's not done. Working it out. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Wanda Sykes on Instagram. Amwanda Sykes, her special legacy is on Netflix. Her movie Undercard, which we talked about, is available to rent on VOD. Check out burbigs.com to sign up for my mailing list. And even better than that, you can text Burbiggs to 917-444-7150 to get text message alerts about various sort of pop up shows. I just did one recently at the Comedy Studio in Hartford Square which was super fun. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simon. Sound mix by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer Kate Balinsky. Special thanks as always to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really helps us out. As I always say, tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your boss of the nsa. Just say hey. While I'm at work dealing with all this top secret information, I usually listen to this podcast called Mike Birbiglies Working It Out. It's where Mike Birigley. It talks about the creative process with other comedians and writers. Nothing top secret there, but important nonetheless. Actually might give you a breather from all the tension created from this top secret environment. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.