217. Aaron Chen: High Quality Jokes from a Low Capacity Kind of Guy

Summary

Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out — Episode 217 Aaron Chen: High Quality Jokes from a Low Capacity Kind of Guy
Released: June 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

Comedian Mike Birbiglia welcomes Australian stand-up sensation Aaron Chen for a deeply funny, introspective, and candid conversation on stand-up comedy, cross-cultural comedy differences, their respective creative processes, and the realities of being “a low capacity kind of guy” in a high-output industry. Together, they reflect on their early years, work out new jokes live, dive into sensitive subjects around religion and comedy, and swap stories about formative moments and personal growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Meeting Comedy Heroes and Being Starstruck

• Aaron admits that meeting comedians he revered growing up is surreal:
  • "Meeting like Todd Barry...these are guys from CDs, you know, in Australia. I just know them from CDs." (00:05)

The Art and Trauma of Bombing

• Early years in Australia taught Aaron to “lash out” at audiences during bombing, a technique he later worked hard to abandon:
  • "There was a time in Australia where people, if you were doing bad, you'd tank it. You'd be like, you guys suck..." (03:00)
• Mike shares that lashing out at audiences was also part of his early career and embarrassment about it:
  • "I had an era of that early in my career... It's so embarrassing." (03:43)

Young Beginnings in Stand-Up

• Aaron started stand-up at 15 via a youth competition related to the Melbourne Comedy Festival:
  • "I Googled how do you do funny speeches outside of school? And it was a stand up competition… I entered at 15." (07:20)
  • Mike draws parallels to other comedians who started young, referencing Chappelle, Sandler, Chris Rock, and Aziz Ansari. (05:22-05:49)

Writing Process: Notes, Mundanity, and Punchlines

• Aaron's approach is to focus on the mundane, jotting down single ideas and working out punchlines:
  • "I get an idea, I'll put it on my notes... it's always just like one little idea.” (09:07)
  • 50/50 odds a new joke will work; the ones that stick become part of the hour or special. (09:25)
• Mike reflects on his own influences: Hedberg, Stephen Wright, David Tell, and personal truth:
  • "When the part that's true has to do with yourself, that can have more impact." (10:10)

Material Development & Capacity

• Aaron honestly reveals he never has more than 45 minutes of material at a time, filling the rest with crowd work or “lashing out”:
  • "In terms of material, it's 45 minutes every time." (10:50)
  • "If I...something is not working, I'm so eager to get it out of the special..." (11:26)

The 'Ten Year Rule' for Stand-Up

• Debate about how long it takes to “find your voice” in stand-up:
  • Aaron mentions the 10 and 20-year benchmarks, referencing advice by Louis CK, and conversations among comedians. (13:13-13:50)
  • Mike says he’s always heard “seven” years to find your voice. Both agree it takes longer to fully become oneself on stage. (14:06)

Comedy Scenes: Australia vs. New York

• New York seen as more vibrant, consistent, and niche-friendly compared to the post-COVID Australian club scene:
  • "Here it's just like so consistent. You can get every type of crowd...people are doing like, very niche comedy to crowds who are up for this..." (16:39-17:16)
  • In Australia, you have to play broader with a smaller comedy population. (17:24)

Life in New York vs. Sydney

• Aaron celebrates the excitement and closeness of New York's comedy scene versus Sydney's “slow, low-key life.” (17:39-17:58)
• Mike relates a story about how small-town Sydney can feel, complete with friendly locals and the rumor mill. (18:15-19:06)

Being “Low Capacity” in Comedy

• Mike references Aaron’s quote calling himself a “low capacity kind of guy”:
  • Aaron: “I'm very low capacity. I don't have much energy...I can do like one, two maximum [social] a day.” (22:26)
  • "I get overwhelmed really easily." (22:55)
• Mike jokes about "capacity" as a showbiz bluff:
  • "Maybe it's like a puffer fish or something...I'm showing a big puff." (23:37)

Learning from High Capacity Comics

• Aaron learned efficiency, leaning out distractions, and show structure from opening for Ali Wong:
  • "She does keep it lean, she doesn't do too many things all the time...puts a bit of a twist at the end of the show." (24:10-25:06)

Father–Son Drives & Early Comedy Support

• Aaron reminisces about his dad teaching him to drive while going to gigs—a ritual of bonding and late-night naps in the car:
  • “Sometimes he'd pull over and have a nap during this...but when I was driving, it was a lot probably about the driving.” (25:31-26:27)

Faith, Comedy, and Contradictions

• Aaron describes drifting from, then slowly returning to, Christianity and how he now reconciles faith with comedy:
  • "I just was doing comedy...couldn't really reconcile both...the way I was living in college..." (27:36-27:44)
  • "Even through [contradictions] I feel like the narrative of Christianity...to be the most existentially satisfying..." (29:20-29:40)

Working Out New Material

On Call Center Scripts

• Aaron: “On the hotline...the scripts they read from are so long...I'm trying to get that to work…” (39:49-40:24)

The “Hotness Industry” Joke (Mike Workshopping)

• Mike: “How many people a day do you honestly see where you go like, 'Jesus Christ, that person’s hot.' It’s not that many people...You have a billion-dollar industry just failing people.” (41:45-43:13)
• Aaron: “It’s not trickling down. It’s not working.”

Casting Director’s Backhanded Comment

• Mike: “Oh, you’re Mike Birbiglia. I thought you were big and fat.” (43:38-44:09)
• Both riff on how the phrasing transforms the statement into a weird insult.

Sensitive World Events Material

• Aaron floats a premise about “guys wearing suit jackets into battle,” nervous about war-related material’s sensitivity:
  • “I think that's like, very intimidating because...they know they're gonna go do a Zoom meeting afterwards.” (45:07-46:30)

Audience Sensitivities and Tribes

• Both discuss how “tribal” reactions among audiences now affect what comics can say, regardless of political leaning:
  • Mike: "I definitely think that's a modern comedy audience change, which is audiences waiting to see if the point of view of the comedian fits with their point of view." (48:13)
  • Aaron: “I think everyone's shutting stuff down now.” (49:29)

Shout-Outs & Community in Comedy

• Both rave about under-the-radar comics at the Comedy Cellar:
  • Aaron: “I'm jealous of this guy, Ethan Simmons Patterson...he has zero social media presence.” (33:38-33:48)
  • Mike: “He's an amazing comic...I tell everyone about him.” (34:06)
  • Clip-worthy: “Daniel Simonson...People...get worried for him for two minutes, and then he's just, like, crushed.” (35:11, Aaron Chen)

Supporting a Cause

• Both agree to support Food Bank NYC for the episode's charitable donation:
  • Mike: “I’m gonna send a specific shout out to...Food bank NYC. It is a great, great organization.” (50:58-51:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On bombing and growth:
  “There was a time in Australia where people...if you were doing bad, you’d tank it. You’d be like, you guys suck.”
  —Aaron Chen (03:00)

• On starting young:
  “When someone is 17 or 18 years old and they have the audacity to walk in that door and say, I'd like to be on stage, usually there's something there, right?”
  —Mike Birbiglia (06:00)

• On writing process:
  “I think you're overestimate my ability to estimate.”
  —Aaron Chen (08:38, teenage joke from his early set)

• On career longevity:
  “A lot of people say 20 years...that’s when you really know. You haven’t heard this?”
  —Aaron Chen (13:23)

• On comedy in NYC:
  “Here it’s just like so consistent. You can get like every type of crowd...people are doing very niche comedy to crowds who are up for this, like, niche thing.”
  —Aaron Chen (17:16)

• On being “low capacity”:
  “I'm very low capacity. Like I don't have much energy...I'm not like these guys, they wake up and they're like, let's go...I get worn out really easily.”
  —Aaron Chen (22:26)

• On audience “tribes”:
  “I definitely think that's a modern comedy audience change, which is audiences waiting to see if the point of view of the comedian fits with their point of view.”
  —Mike Birbiglia (48:13)

• On Comedy Cellar kinship:
  “Comics are different because, like, no matter who comes in, they’ll talk to all the other comics...”
  —Aaron Chen (32:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 — Meeting comedy idols, the thrill of seeing heroes in real life
• 03:00 — Lashing out at audiences and learning not to
• 07:00 — Aaron’s first stand-up competition at 15, writing early material
• 09:16 — Aaron’s notes-to-stage-to-special writing process
• 13:13 — The ‘10/20-Year Rule’ in stand-up and finding one’s voice
• 16:39 — Comparing Australian and New York comedy scenes
• 22:26 — “Low capacity kind of guy” and the real toll of social demands
• 24:10 — What Aaron learned opening for Ali Wong
• 25:31 — Being driven to gigs by his dad, father-son bonding
• 27:36 — Aaron’s journey with Christianity and comedy
• 39:49 — Working out new jokes live on the podcast: call center bits, being hot, casting director insult
• 45:07 — Handling sensitive world events material and audience reactions
• 48:13 — Audiences, tribes, and the new rules of performing sensitive material
• 50:58 — Support for Food Bank NYC

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Podcast Tone and Language

The atmosphere is generous, open, and joyfully self-deprecating, with both comedians demonstrating humility even as they dig into deeply personal and occasionally uncomfortable topics. Mike gently teases but is always supportive, and Aaron is dryly funny and sharply introspective in a classic low-key Australian mode. Both are honest about their creative anxieties and the ever-shifting cultural climate around comedy.

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Essential Listening for:

• Comedy fans fascinated by process, early career mistakes, and why some jokes never quite land.
• Those curious about the difference between Australian and NYC comedy environments.
• Anyone who relates to feeling “low capacity” in a high-demand world.
• Aspiring comics seeking insight on writing, self-doubt, and surviving rough crowds.

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Episode cause: Food Bank NYC
Aaron Chen’s special “Funny Garden” is now on Netflix.
Follow Aaron on Instagram @ennylifestyle.

Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who'd you meet where you were just like, well this is very surprising turn in life meeting this person.

[Aaron Chen]

Well, I don't want to say you, but you, you know, like meeting you, that's crazy. Meeting like Todd Barry, you know, like that's a guy from like. These are guys from CDs, you know, in Australia. I just know them from CDs from CDs, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That is the voice of the great Aaron Chen. Welcome back to Working It Out. We have Aaron Chen this week. I'm really. We've talked about him for a while as a lot of guests have mentioned him as one of their favorite comics. He's one of my favorite comics to watch. He's an Australian stand up. He's very well known in Australia from a show there called Fisk. He's got a special out right now called Funny Garden on Netflix. All over the world we talk about that today. We talk about jokes. We work out jokes. By the way, thanks to all our Working it out premium subscribers, the Berbelia Familiar, we've been doing more bonus episodes. We recently dropped one with Liz Allen, who's a great improv teacher and improviser. We've done some recently where we work out listeners jokes, each other's jokes. We did one with Pete Holmes. If you join, it is $4.99 a month and you get no ads on the podcast ever. Plus you get the bonus episodes. By the way, thanks for all the positive feedback we got on last week's episode, the Q and A with John Rudnitski. We got into the nuts and bolts of the financial and logistical struggle of being a stand up in really gritty way. I love that episode as always. You can watch this episode and others on YouTube videos. Also now on Spotify and I think coming soon to Apple podcasts as well for the video version. I have a great talk today with Aaron Chen. We talk about how he started doing stand up comedy in Australia when he was in high school. We talk about lashing out at audiences early in our comedy careers. Oh gosh. We kick around material and Aaron explains how his dad taught him to drive while they were on the road going to comedy clubs. Very different from my relationship with my dad. This is a good one. Enjoy my conversation with the great Aaron Chen. So you and I know each other from the Comedy Cellar. Yeah, you're like before you showed up we were talk, Gary and I were talking about this. It's like you're one of the people who when you kill with an audience, it's like a sonic heightening of the room. Like, you're killing so hard that it's like it's a new height, and you're like, oh, I didn't know that this room could get this loud.

[Aaron Chen]

That's very nice to say. Wow, that's incredible.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But here's the question.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. When I'm bombing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. What's that like?

[Aaron Chen]

You didn't know it could get that quiet?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What is it like? Cause I've never seen it. Like. I've never seen you bomb. What does it feel like for you? What does it feel like for the people in the room?

[Aaron Chen]

Well, it took. I think there was a period in Australia for like, two or three years where I had to learn not to throw a set. You know, like when I feel like I don't see people in America doing this much. But there was a time in Australia where people. If you were doing bad, you'd tank it. You'd be like, you guys suck. You don't.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like.

[Aaron Chen]

You don't get it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You yell at the audience. Right.

[Aaron Chen]

This is the worst night of my life. That type of thing. And it took me like, a year or two to stamp out that, because it was very painful when I.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you used to lash out.

[Aaron Chen]

I would lash out, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was, like, socially acceptable among comedians to lash out at the crowd when they weren't.

[Aaron Chen]

People were lashing out. In Australia, there was a big problem. I don't know if they still do it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had an era of that early in my career.

[Aaron Chen]

You did?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, 100%. It's so embarrassing.

[Aaron Chen]

When's the last time you lashed out? Can you remember it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, it was so long ago. I don't.

[Aaron Chen]

You're a professional.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was so long ago. Really, though, I mean, I wish I. You know, and I wish I never did.

[Aaron Chen]

Yes. I hate that I did same, but mine's recent.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How recent?

[Aaron Chen]

I did a. In the past year, I did a show at mit, but it wasn't like a big show there. It was. They had, like, a Chinese society.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

And it was Chinese New Year, so I can remember exactly. It was whatever Chinese New Year was this year. And it was one of these things not set up for comedy. It's in the middle of, like, they had an event, and they're like, okay, so now people are gonna get up and go get food from the buffet. I think this is a great time for you to start your set.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Aaron Chen]

So people are getting up and getting

[Mike Birbiglia]

food from the buffet.

[Aaron Chen]

Every other act was, like, kind of a talent act from the crowd, no one was really like, into it or laughing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

But then, so I lashed out. I did lash out. I said, whoa, this. I didn't say, like, I. You guys suck. I was like, this is like, this sucked. This. Yeah. This is bad. This is not good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. You were like a young phenom. Like, you blew up in Australia. You were like on a TV show and you were stand up.

[Aaron Chen]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were like mid-20s, like young 20s.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. I started early. I started at 15 and then I was on TV later on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, the 15 thing always is interesting to me. 15 clubs, because, you know, there's only a few people who I. I think Sandler started when he was like 16 or 17 maybe.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think Chris Rock started when he was like 16.

[Aaron Chen]

Really?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

I didn't know that, like Chappelle started

[Mike Birbiglia]

when he was like 14. Yeah, yeah. Like really young. Aziz started really young. I want to say like 17.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, it's interesting. Like one time Aziz was on stage, he was super young because I was. I was probably in my 20s and Aziz maybe was 18 or 19. He's super young. At the comic strip, Upper east side.

[Aaron Chen]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And. And Lucian, the guy who booked the comic strip, said to me, he goes, when someone is 17 or 18 years old and they have the audacity to walk in that door and say, I'd like to be on stage, usually there's something there, right?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I always stuck with me.

[Aaron Chen]

Uh huh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because truthfully, most people walk into a comic club and say, I'd like to be on stage. There's not something there.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know what that is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The youthfulness. Like, what, what drove you at 15 to be like, yeah, I should be on stage.

[Aaron Chen]

I think it's. It fell into. Everything fell into place. Like I was just doing like speeches at school and I'd always do them funny. And then I was chasing that bug, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. How funny were these speeches?

[Aaron Chen]

Let's be honest about few gags, some stolen.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's be super real about these speeches.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the funniest thing you said in one of your speeches?

[Aaron Chen]

I went to like an all Asian school, so it was like not all Asian.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was one of the rules.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, it was an unwritten rule. It was maybe like, like 70% Asian. Like a lot. So a lot of Asian gags, that type of stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

And hacky stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Or original?

[Aaron Chen]

I would probably say hacky. Maybe some. Some originality poked out, but I wouldn't claim that. And then I Googled how do you do funny speeches outside of school? And it was a stand up competition. There was one for kids. Interesting that the Melbourne Comedy Festival runs amazing. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you entered?

[Aaron Chen]

I entered at 15. At 15 and then I started doing mics and stuff after that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you win?

[Aaron Chen]

I didn't win the first year. I won the second year.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You won when you were 16?

[Aaron Chen]

16, yeah. Needed a year.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you have any good jokes from back then?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, I like party areas. You know, party areas, they get real crazy on Friday, Saturday nights packed full of people who are like, they work out a lot and they're very drunk. And that's like a Venn diagram of things I'm scared of. And I say that one of these guys, he bumps into me, but he thought that I bumped into him. So he says, do you want to fight? Don't underestimate me. And I say, I think you underestimate my ability to estimate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[Aaron Chen]

That's good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Age 16.

[Aaron Chen]

16. I'll stare at Chen, comma.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Age 16. I think you're overestimate my ability to estimate.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's strong. I guess I would just say, like, how do you write? Because it seems like your bread and butter is mundane. Like really zeroing in on the mundane.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which must be very annoying for the people in your immediate life when there aren't punchlines yet.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah, right. I get an idea, I'll put it on my notes or a notebook or something, but it's always just like one little idea.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What, what gets it from the notes app onto stage and then what gets it from the stage to the special?

[Aaron Chen]

Great question. It normally comes pretty fully formed. Like I have to be pretty confident that the punchline at least is there or something like that. And it's like pretty easy to work out from there. And then it's 50, 50, whether it works or not. And then from the special, I think it just keeps working over time and then you're in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I guess my experience of it is like, I find you so enjoyable to watch that actually if you didn't go to the punchline, like, I still be along for the ride.

[Aaron Chen]

That's nice to say.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's true.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's probably why you were able to do stand up comedy when you were 16.

[Aaron Chen]

Did you, did you learn to write through setup, Punchline, that vibe because you're pretty, you're, you're free, flowing with it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, that is it. It was Hedberg, Stephen Wright.

[Aaron Chen]

Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

David Tell. You know, the real like setup Punch people. And then just, like, observing, like, okay, this part is. No one taught it to me. I never took a class. Like, I was just like, okay, this part's true. And then this part is like a turn. And then, like, just trying that out and then, like, realizing that, like, I think similar to you, like, when the part that's true has to do with yourself, that that can have more impact.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How did you know with this special? How'd you know when it was done? Because I feel like at any given time, you probably have couple hours of material.

[Aaron Chen]

No, I'm like, what's in the special is, like, everything I have. I'm always, like, pushing to get more material. It's so hard for me to, like, oh, really? I'll get to an hour. But that's like, with crowd work or with, like, you know, a bit of space and stuff, I'll get to an hour. But normally it's like, in terms of material, it's 45 minutes every time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So then past that, you just lash out of the audience.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, lashing out is. Gets me to now

[Mike Birbiglia]

at 45, they're like, Aaron, stretch. And you're like, no, these guys suck. Like, this motherfucker laying into people.

[Aaron Chen]

That's what happened. I'm trying to think. Yeah, it's 45 minutes. I think I just tour for that long. I also, like, it's just like, if I. Something is not working, I'm so eager to get it out of the special, you know, or get it out of the hour and replace it with something else. So maybe I'm like, should maybe sit in the bits a bit more and just work on them. But.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Aaron Chen]

It's just. By the time I'm sick of doing that 45, I think that's when you know it's ready.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's interesting. When you get sick of it, you

[Aaron Chen]

do get sick of it sometimes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, yeah, because it's. A lot of times it's the same words over and over again.

[Aaron Chen]

Same words. You've to it everywhere. You're like, it's time, Right. Mm.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you. Now that you just dropped the special, are you on the spot to, like, come up with a new 45 minutes plus lashing out at people?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, I'm still working on the lashing out. I got about two minutes of lashing out. But no, I'm trying to write now, I think since September, since it came out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you. You sort of had this epiphany at, like, 15, 16. You became a.

[Aaron Chen]

Like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was your first break in your 20s or like, how old were you when you started doing it professionally?

[Aaron Chen]

Professionally? I was like, maybe like kind of seven years in that five to seven years in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you think are the benefits and costs of breaking early like that?

[Aaron Chen]

I don't know if there was like that much of a benefit in doing it early except just like time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

You just did it for longer, right? Yeah, but I. I don't think I. Yeah, I don't think I had. There was too much negative because I didn't like, explode, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Aaron Chen]

So I still did the 10 years. Like I wanted to do the 10 years.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Is that a standard amount of time people think of doing stand up? 10 years.

[Aaron Chen]

A lot of people say 20 years. That's when you're like, really? You haven't heard this?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've never heard any of these things. Who are you. Who are you talking?

[Aaron Chen]

I'm listening to podcasts and stuff from this very country.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Clearly not this one.

[Aaron Chen]

People like 20 years. That's when you really know. You're like, I've heard like a long time ago. Louis said that and stuff like that. And that's interesting. Nate Bugazi talks about Louis talking about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, I love that. I love that podcast. I love that podcast. People talking about Nate talking about Louis. Oh, my God, those guys are so engaging.

[Aaron Chen]

Comedians. Talking about comedians.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I had always. Funny you should say that. 20 or I had always. Or 10.

[Aaron Chen]

Did you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'd always heard.

[Aaron Chen]

Did you ever feel anything at any point?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I heard it. I. Okay, I heard. I'd always heard seven.

[Aaron Chen]

Seven is what?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Seven to find your voice. Yeah, that was what I found. I was. Because I started at like, I don't know, 20, and then when I was roughly like 27, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, this feels like something that is me versus someone else.

[Aaron Chen]

Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. That makes it. I think that's what the ten year thing I was thinking. Yeah, I kind of put seven might be more.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But 20 is interesting too, because it's

[Aaron Chen]

like, that's a long time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a long time. And also, like, I think I'm at 25 years or so. Like at this 20. Maybe 25 to 30 years.

[Aaron Chen]

So you've been a comic for five years then?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly, I've been doing it.

[Aaron Chen]

Been a real comic.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've been dedicated for about five to seven years.

[Aaron Chen]

But.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But no, there is something to. I do think there is something to the 20 year thing because I think you honestly, like, you feel like there's nothing to lose. At that point.

[Aaron Chen]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So you're kind of like, well, what. I'm not afraid to say anything because, like, what, what are people gonna say to me, really?

[Aaron Chen]

You've experienced all the seasons of, well,

[Mike Birbiglia]

the seasons of, like, rejection from audiences. I feel like I've lashed out at the best of them.

[Aaron Chen]

You lashed out at test audience?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've experienced all versions of this, of this movie. I've watched all. All versions. But like, yeah, no, I do that. 20 is interesting. I've never heard that concept, but I, I do, I do. I get it. When I hear it, I'm like, oh, my God. 20. I was insane. Who. Who even does it? 20. It's not even that many people.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, well, that's what they're kind of saying. Like, you feel like, comfortable, like you've seen everything kind of.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting. So how, how long are you in at this point? Like 15.

[Aaron Chen]

15? Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you feel like, you know, now that you didn't know? Five years in.

[Aaron Chen]

Five years in a lot. I think it's like, even the lashing out stuff, you know, that's like, you just learn all these, like, little lessons all throughout. You've seen the process as well, of doing an hour and dumping it. You see that cycle of writing again, that's like the scariest. Like, I think five years in, you're like, I was maybe doing like my first hour and then being like, where do I go from here? Yeah, like, how do I do that again? You know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What do you make of crowds here versus Australia? And then what do you make of just life here versus Melbourne or Sydney?

[Aaron Chen]

Crowds here? Really, really good. Australian crowds are good, but it's like the club scene post Covid in Sydney. When I left, it was like really scattered, so it was really hard to know which club was gonna be good at. Oh, there's only one club in Sydney, Is that right? One club and lots of bar shows. So it's always hard to know which bar shows were good, but here it's just like so consistent. You can get like every type of crowd. I feel like, with. With like a lot of the Brooklyn rooms and stuff, people are doing like, very niche comedy to crowds who are up for this, like, niche thing, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's completely true.

[Aaron Chen]

Like, someone can do a 10 minute set about like Tony Hawk's pro skater or something like that, and the crowd

[Mike Birbiglia]

will be like, yeah, right, that's our guy.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah. But in Australia, you have to be pretty broad because it's a young comedy audience and smaller Population. There may be only five people who like would get Tony Hawk.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. How do you find the living in New York versus living in Sydney?

[Aaron Chen]

Living in New York is, it's, it's so fun, it's exciting. It just feels like you're in it all the time, right? I like catching the subway and stuff. It's. Yeah. Quick in Sydney. It's like a pretty slow, low key life. It's like really beautiful and like the sun's out and stuff. And you go to the beach, it's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sydney struck me as a small town. Even though it's, it's big, it's a big city.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But like I was doing the Sydney Arts Festival, I think with like my girlfriend's boyfriend like 15, 20 years ago.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A long time ago. I go down to Bondi Beach.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, I'm excited.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I go down to Bondi Beach. Gorgeous beach. The waves are unbelievable. The waves are so, they're just like intense. And I love the ocean. So I'm with my wife and I just like throw my clothes off. She's like, what are you doing running into the ocean? I just, I run in the wave. It was as though Hulk Hogan picked me up, body slammed me.

[Aaron Chen]

You ran right into the waves. Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, it was just like I was scratched up.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I came back to Jen. I was like, that was awesome. You know, and that night I go to the stage door at the venue. And every night the guy at the door would say two words to me.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He'd just be like, good day, Mike. That would be it. Nice enough old man.

[Aaron Chen]

Great. That sounds classy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Final day, I'm walking into my show. He goes, hey, Mike. Hey. He goes, heard you got smacked down by the waves.

[Aaron Chen]

How do you hear that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know. I don't know. Foreign. Comes from Mint Mobile. When people hear that Mint Mobile plans are only 15amonth, a lot of people wonder, what's the catch? Certainly I, I did. I can tell you from firsthand experience there isn't a catch. No gimmicks, no gotchas. Just unlimited talk, text and data, fast reliable coverage on the nation's largest 5G network, and an award winning care team. I guess that makes Mint Mobile a catch. Aha. You got me. After years of overpaying for wireless, I finally got fed up with crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks that actually cost more in the long run. And I switched to Mint Mobile to get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com burbigs. That's mintmobile.com brbigs Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com brbigs that's it. No catch. 45 upfront payment required. Equivalent to 15 bucks a month. New customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Someone should get hired for voiceovers. Support for working now comes from Warby Parker. It's summertime. Do you need sunglasses? Check out Warby Parker.

[Aaron Chen]

I knew it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I knew it. Great selection of sunglasses. Prescription glasses start at just $95. Am I reading this correct? That's for the frame and the lenses. I know you're probably thinking, what's the catch? Are $95 glasses any good? Have you ever looked through a Warby Parker window when you're walking around your neighborhood? They look amazing. Warby Parker has an amazing virtual try on. You can try their glasses on in the comfort of your own home. It's actually wild how well the virtual try on works. You can do it any time of day. Let's say it's 3am you can't sleep because you're stressed out about getting new glasses. Try them on right at 3am right in your apartment right now. Buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs at warbyparker.com that's 20 off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at W-A R B Y P-A-R-K-E-R.com Forbigs warbyparker.com for bigs. You told the Guardian you were, quote, a low capacity kind of guy.

[Aaron Chen]

Wow. You already got that research into your.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh yeah. This is a very research podcast. This is.

[Aaron Chen]

That's two days ago.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is not a podcast where we talk about what Nate Bargazzi said about Louis ck. This is a source material.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is ground zero of comedy discussion. Podcast. We have questions.

[Aaron Chen]

It's good. It's good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What does it mean, low capacity kind of guy?

[Aaron Chen]

I'm very low capacity. Like I don't have like much energy. I'm in terms of like social things. I can do like one, two maximum a day. You know, I'm not like these guys, they wake up and they're like, let's go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Aaron Chen]

And then they go into the night. You know, I'm low capacity. I get worn out really easily. Yeah, I can't think about a lot of high level things. Like, you know, people are doing like, like Social media and stuff like that. It overwhelms me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, really?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, I get overwhelmed really easily.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Really?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. I'm not. I'm not, like, nice with it, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You say you're not nice with it. Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

I can do, like, maybe, like. Like, I can do stand up and then that. That will be it. That's why, like, I kind of commit to that. I do stand up. You're writing scripts and stuff like that. And you're beautiful. It's beautiful. I can't hold. I can't hold, like, a script in my mind, you know, I can only hold these little.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think I'm nice with it

[Aaron Chen]

because look at. This is high capacity.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, this? Yeah. Maybe this is. Yeah. Although maybe it's smoking mirrors. No, no, for low capacity.

[Aaron Chen]

It can't be.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm trying to. Maybe it's a bluff. Maybe it's like a puffer fish or something where it's like I'm. Oh, yeah, I'm showing a big puff.

[Aaron Chen]

I'm scared of pufferfish, though, you know? Of course, you got things on the moon. You got motion. That's what they say.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know, but maybe the motion is a distraction. I don't know. You don't seem low capacity.

[Aaron Chen]

Thanks for saying. I am. I am. Yeah. I'm the puffer fish. If that's the case,

[Mike Birbiglia]

what'd you learn opening for Ali Wong?

[Aaron Chen]

Wow. See, this is recent stuff. You got it all. I learned a lot. She's. She's high level.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She's high level. High capacity.

[Aaron Chen]

She's high capacity. But she does keep it lean, you know, she doesn't do too many things all the time. She has a good setup going on. She, like, keeps it as lean as she can.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You feel like you learned that from.

[Aaron Chen]

I've learned how to do it. I've always aspired to that. But seeing her tour is, like. It's really. Yeah. It's inspiring. And. Yeah. So Ali's so funny. Knows how to work a show. Like, knows, like, puts a bit of, like, I. Well, you. You do this to the maximum. But she's like. She's like. I used to write on TV shows and movies, so I know to put, like, maybe like a twist at the end of the show, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

And I never think about it like that, you know, but you do. It is an hour. You. You are trying to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She had that with being pregnant.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, that's her thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That was a good twist.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

She was like comedy, except.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. She puts her Body on the. Yeah, yeah. On the line.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

That's what I learned. That's what I'm trying to get to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You learn to drive. Driving with your dad to comedy clubs to perform. Wow.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Your dad would sit in the passenger seat when you drove almost 20 miles to the comedy clubs in the suburbs of Sydney. What did you and your dad talk about on those drives?

[Aaron Chen]

That's a really good question. That really is really nice. That's high capacity.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's high capacity questioning. That's really capacity show.

[Aaron Chen]

We would talk about just general things. I feel like we kept a pretty general, like, what. What are you up to? Like, we listen to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a low capacity answer.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. I feel like it would always be late at night. Sometimes he'd like, pull over and, like, have a nap during this, you know,

[Mike Birbiglia]

you'd pull over and your dad would have a nap while you're driving.

[Aaron Chen]

When he was driving. This was when he was driving. But when I was driving, it was a lot probably about the driving.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Aaron Chen]

Because I was learning and he was like, what are you doing with that? Like, that's not conventional style driving and stuff like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I just want to unpack this. When your dad was driving, he would say to you, hey, I know this side of the road. He'd go, hey, I want to be respectful to Australian drivers. Like, hey, Aaron.

[Aaron Chen]

Steering wheel flushes the other way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm getting. I'm getting a little woozy. I'm gonna pull over and take a nap. And you'd go to, like, a rest stop?

[Aaron Chen]

No, because it was all suburban in Sydney. So he'd just find a place. He'd park on at the curb, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

He would put his seat back, you know how it goes all. And then he'll sleep for like half an hour or something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Interesting.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. And I'd sit there. He's like, you sleep? I'm. I'm, you know, like, I'm really young guy. I can't really pull that kind of thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It wasn't nap time for you?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, it wasn't nap time. So I just sit and listen to music.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were raised Christian? Drifted a bit. And you've said that you're on your way back. Yeah, to Faith.

[Aaron Chen]

I like it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Talk to me about that. What's your journey? How did you end up on the return?

[Aaron Chen]

Well, I just was doing comedy at the time and couldn't really reconcile both of the things and, like, the way I was living in college and stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. And then I was doing that for a While. And I was going good and then.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you couldn't reconcile, like, you were smoking and drinking and reading philosophy, and that felt at odds, maybe.

[Aaron Chen]

Oh, just like, where I was hanging out and stuff like that, who I was hanging out with and was like, it wasn't really. It wasn't meshing. So I was like, let's. Let's put it aside.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were, like, hanging out with Heathens.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, A lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I get it.

[Aaron Chen]

Respectfully, I was. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was a good time. But then at the end, you think a lot and then you get to the end of your thoughts and you're like, I think it's time for me to go back.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you see the religion being ever at odds with comedy?

[Aaron Chen]

I did at this, like, in that period, but now I'm like, oh, no. Like, it's everything you can kind of do, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, the reason I say it is, like, it feels like at the heart of comedy is like. Like noticing hypocrisy.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Or things that don't quite make sense.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

If you look at, like, a lot of religions, Christianity among them.

[Aaron Chen]

Yes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's just so much hypocrisy.

[Aaron Chen]

I agreed. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So many contradictions.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And do you find yourself breaking that apart in your head when you're listening at church?

[Aaron Chen]

Like, the hypocrisy of it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Or do you give yourself over to it, like. Well, that's what everything is. Everything has contradictions.

[Aaron Chen]

Well, yeah, I do think, like, everything has. And. Well, more specifically, everyone, like, has, like, hypocrisy and contradictions. But I just. Even through that, I feel like the narrative of Christianity is, like, I found that to be the most existentially satisfying, I guess.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Interesting. In what way?

[Aaron Chen]

Well, it's just like. Like, what. What are we put on this earth for? Why are we here? And stuff like that. And in terms of meaning, like, I. I don't think I could have got that meaning from, like. Like the Secular Life script, I guess.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Aaron Chen]

Like, we're here, we enjoy it, we have pleasure, and then it's over. I. I didn't find that to be existentially satisfying.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you think you're going to heaven?

[Aaron Chen]

I hope so. I don't know. I hope so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Before I go to the slow round, I mean, I hope so, too.

[Aaron Chen]

I'm. Low capacity, though.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. Low capacity. Heaven.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, low capacity. Heaven's great, actually, because it's like. It's heaven. There's clouds, St. Peter's there, but it's like, kind of like mellow.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. It's mellow, it's chill.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. They don't ask you to do, like, too much, I don't know.

[Aaron Chen]

Loot playing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Loot playing.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They're like, you can. You only have to loot for, like, five minutes. Everyone's gonna do. Everyone's gonna do shifts.

[Aaron Chen]

That's what we're doing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. Shift work before I go to the slow round. Anything.

[Aaron Chen]

What's slow round? Oh, I know slow round.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know the slow round.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, I know slow round.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've been listening to too much comedians talking about Nate Burgazi, talking about Louis ck. Around here, we do the slow round.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right. What are people's least favorite and favorite things about you?

[Aaron Chen]

Least favorite is probably low capacity ness. I don't respond to these texts and stuff in time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

Favorite thing. Maybe I am relaxed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'd say they don't mind that. I find you just be like. When I see you just like, a pleasant engager of people. Like, I just feel like you engage with a lot of people and a lot of types of people, and you don't have that thing that a lot of people in entertainment have where you're looking over people's shoulder of like, who's the important person?

[Aaron Chen]

But I'm scared of those people. I get really scared of people who

[Mike Birbiglia]

are, like, very ambitious.

[Aaron Chen]

No, no. Of people who are, like, statured, you know, So I kind of leave them alone. If they want to come talk to me, you know, I'll talk to them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But what about at the comedy seller, though?

[Aaron Chen]

You must have come across statured people. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You must have come across some people who are statured.

[Aaron Chen]

It is nice. But you see them and they're like kind of your heroes from afar. But then up close you see all the, like, the person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The barnacles.

[Aaron Chen]

The barnacles. And it's funny. I feel like comics are different because, like, no matter, like, who comes in, they'll. They'll talk to, like, the. All the other comics, you know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think that's true. I think. I think comedy has this odd kind of, like. I think the old expression is politics creates strange bedfellows. It's like. I think comedy has that too.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where it's like you end up talking to people who you have almost nothing in common with.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And the only reason is that they also are speaking to a group of strangers. And that's a weird job.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You meet a lot of people through the cellar.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who'd you Meet where you were just like, well, this is very surprising turn in life. Meeting this person would.

[Aaron Chen]

I don't want to say you, but, you know, like, meeting you, that's crazy. Meeting, like, Todd Barry, you know, like, that's a guy from, like. These are guys from CDs, you know, in Australia. I just know them from CDs, you know? And then you see, like. You do see, like, glitzy stars. They come in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. Who are you jealous of?

[Aaron Chen]

I'm jealous of this guy, Ethan Simmons. Patterson.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I love Ethan.

[Aaron Chen]

One, he is so funny, and two, he has zero social media presence.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Isn't it amazing?

[Aaron Chen]

Some people become, like, big celebrities, and then they just get rid of all their social media presence because they don't have to do it. But he. He doesn't even worry about getting to that point before getting rid of it. It's just such a.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's an amazing comic. He's from Chicago, works the Cellar. I don't know where else he works, actually.

[Aaron Chen]

He's at the Cellar a lot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, he's an amazing comic. I feel like I tell everyone about him.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, he's got a lot on the move. He, like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think of you and him in a similar vein, actually. I think of you and him. I really like that as being like people who when similarly. Like, if I was telling. If I was saying to somebody, go to the comedy seller, try to look for Aaron Chandler, trying to look for Ethan Simmons. Patterson on the lineups, because I think there's an excitement when you go on and when he goes on, because they don't know you necessarily from television.

[Aaron Chen]

That's what I. That's what I like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's. It's fun.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Someone crushing. They've never heard. Isn't that what, like, a great.

[Aaron Chen]

Isn't that what it's all about?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Isn't that what a great entertainment experience is, though, in a way?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is it going to something that you're like, yeah, this should be good. And then you're like, oh, my God.

[Aaron Chen]

I think, who are these people? And there's a point where, like, people, they're kind of scared. They can be scared when I go up because I seem like I don't know what I'm doing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Aaron Chen]

You know, I look like, really, like, I accidentally went to the Cellar, you know, I feel like Daniel Simonson's like that as well. You know, Daniel's another one. People, like, they get worried for him for two minutes, and then he's just, like, crushed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He has that Andy Kaufman thing.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Where you literally are like, oh, this is gonna be a train wreck. And then he turns it a full 180.

[Aaron Chen]

He turns it 180 to crush him. He's gorgeous.

[Mike Birbiglia]

These are three, by the way. We should make a clip of this. These are three people you should look out for. And you go to the Comedy Cellar. Daniel Simonson, Ethan Simmons, Patterson, Aaron Chen.

[Aaron Chen]

Thanks for including me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Those are the big three. Yeah, I mean, there's more, but like those are three really good ones.

[Aaron Chen]

And Chris Rock.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's not usually on the schedule, but. Yeah, I agree, I agree.

[Aaron Chen]

If there's space for one more, then, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Foreign. It out is supported by Helix. Helix makes award winning sleep products tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Helix offers a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. 120 nights. I've been a Helix customer myself for many years, since the beginning of this podcast almost six years ago. Everyone on the staff here at Working it out has a Helix mattress. We all really love them. And Helix makes the best mattress I've ever slept on. And I've slept on a lot of mattresses. I travel quite a bit, stay in a lot of hotels. Traveling actually can be hard. If I could bring my Helix mattress with me on tour, I would. You can also rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Go to helixsleep.com brbigs for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com brBigs for 20 percent off site wide. Helixsleep.com brewbigs support for working it out comes from article. You know, it's getting nice out and article. Man, they have really good deck furniture. My favorite place to be is the deck. Oh, the deck. Any deck. I got this really nice outdoor swivel chair at Article. I highly recommend it. Super comfy. I love this article furniture. They have a thoughtful design approach that makes it incredibly easy to mix and match, helping you create a space that feels cohesive and as well as stylish. I feel like if you went on the article website, you could spend hours there. With Article's 30 day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. The peace of mind ensures that you can invest in your home without hesitation. By the way, Article is offering our listeners 50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. To claim, visit article.comWIO and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com wio for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Working it out is supported by Rula. Let's talk about therapy for a second. We talk about therapy all the time on this show. I talked about it with Gary Goleman with Sarah Sherman. That was a good episode where we talk about her face. I've been in therapy for a long time. Some people in the comment section of my YouTube say too long, but I've been for 25 years. Anyway, we talk about a lot. I know firsthand. Sometimes navigating mental health care can be challenging. Here's the thing about Rula. Rula helps to make that part easier. Rula works with major insurance plans. Sessions can cost as little as $15 and in some case, $0, depending on what your benefits are. Rula isn't just a directory. They help book appointments, they stay on top of your schedule. And Rula sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is actually helping you move forward. Thousands of people have already used Rula to finally get the care they needed. Don't keep putting it off. Go to rula.com burbigs and get started today. That's R U L A.com Burbigs take the first step. Get connected. Take control of your mental health. Do you have any material that's sort of half baked in the notebook? You can use your phone or. And I'll share some with you, but if you have any, we can sort of talk. We sort of. That's what we do here on this podcast.

[Aaron Chen]

We talk about this, jokes. I have a one bit. It's. It's about. Oh, you know, when you call like the, like my WI fi broke. So I had to call the people. But on the hotline. They like the scripts they read from. They're so long, you know, it's like, it's not because I'm like, hey, my wi fi broke. Can you help me fix it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Aaron Chen]

But they have to read this script where they're like, I'm so sorry that you're experiencing all these difficulties. I'm. Trials and tribulations. Like, they have to say like every word in the dictionary. So I'm trying to get that to work. Like something like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's really funny.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, I don't know what it is. Like, what the reason is that, that they have to say that much stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The other thing I'VE noticed lately on the customer service, you call, they go. Before they even get someone on, they go, hey, just so you know, we want to do a. We want to do a form afterwards where you evaluate your experience. And you're just. You're so angry because you're just like, it's not.

[Aaron Chen]

Come go over.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You want an evaluation of the experience? Give me an experience. This is nothing. What's happening right now is nothing.

[Aaron Chen]

Nothing. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And maybe towards the end, you break me in a little bit with the experience, and then it's like, hey, in a few minutes, we might ask you to rate your. All right, I guess this is going pretty well, isn't it?

[Aaron Chen]

At the start.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's crazy at the start, before we've spoken to anybody.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. And it's like a robot often let the AR and you have to talk to the robot and you're like, in a few words, describe your. You know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

And I don't know how to talk to you yet. Like, I'm not trained to know, like, what you understand.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Here's what I. Yeah, here's a few things I jotted down.

[Aaron Chen]

Okay, go ahead.

[Mike Birbiglia]

If you walk by those stores in soho, you see tons of people trying to buy being hot.

[Aaron Chen]

Right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like lotions and.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a billion dollar industry.

[Aaron Chen]

It is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of looking hot.

[Aaron Chen]

Are you talking about skincare only or

[Mike Birbiglia]

are there skincare but, like, everything in. So with fashion. And fashion, it's endless, right?

[Aaron Chen]

It's all about looking hot.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I just wrote, this is offensive. It's like, how many people a day do you actually honestly see where you go like, jesus Christ, that person's hot.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, it's not that many people.

[Aaron Chen]

No, no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have a billion dollar industry just failing people.

[Aaron Chen]

It's not trickling down. It's not working. That is funny. That's funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like millions. How many people a day do you think. Do you go, oh, my God, like one.

[Aaron Chen]

Oh, you're like, really?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm asking you.

[Aaron Chen]

Like, I. I think more that it's got to be more than 1. 5. Between 1 and 10, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, let's say it's. Let's say it's.

[Aaron Chen]

You're seeing a lot of people, but

[Mike Birbiglia]

maybe you've seen 500 people.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. Yeah. You see more than 500 people in this city.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, in this city. Right. So this is the thousand. So five over a thousand.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like a vast minority of people are hot.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is a failing industry.

[Aaron Chen]

It is failing. Yeah, it's failing. It's a lot of promise.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then my example is like, I went to buy a coat in this department store in soho. And the guy goes, looks good on you. It didn't look good at me.

[Aaron Chen]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That guy said that to 25 people that day.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Nobody looked good.

[Aaron Chen]

So you got scammed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How many. How many of those people look good?

[Aaron Chen]

One. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right.

[Aaron Chen]

This is the one in 25 guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right. I had. And then this is. I'm getting ready to go to Los Angeles. I was in Los Angeles once, and I. And I met this casting director.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And someone goes, oh, this is Mike Birbiglia. And she goes, oh, you're Mike Birbiglia. I thought you were big and fat.

[Aaron Chen]

That's so funny. That's so funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I was just like, I don't know where the joke is, but it's like big. Like, did she have to say big and fat?

[Aaron Chen]

I mean, like. Yeah, I think big. I mean, that's already there. Like from there. That's already there. And then big and fat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Big and fat.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

And is that a nice thing to say or is it right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Is that a nice thing or not? Nice thing to say?

[Aaron Chen]

Why did she think that? Yeah, that's unbelievable. Especially for a Hollywood person as well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

You know, they're normally really careful with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

But she's like, you must. In her mind, you must have been big and fat. That have bypassed. Like, she was so shocked at how.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. There's something about the big plus fat that makes it an insult that both. Both big and fat in isolation isn't an insult. This person's big is fine. This person's fat is even fine. Big and fat is a compounding that makes it an all out verbal assault to your face in real time. I thought you were big and fat.

[Aaron Chen]

Well, so when I was a kid, so many people did yo mama jokes at me when they met her. They were like, I thought you were big and fat.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right. Do you have anything else in your notebook? I feel like I threw a bunch of jokes at you. If you have anything else, we'll talk about that.

[Aaron Chen]

I got one thing where I saw like a news clip of. I think it's. It's sensitive, though. I maybe tried it one time, but it's just too sensitive. Like talking about the Middle east war.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think it's a real loose topic that people have a lot of fun with.

[Aaron Chen]

Well, that's not been my experience.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tell it to me and then I'll break apart. What I think could be the thing that might make people upset.

[Aaron Chen]

Well, okay, so basically what I say is, like, I see these documentary of these guys, like, kind of like they. With the AK47, but they have. Some of them are wearing a suit jacket when they fight, you know, and I think that's like, very intimidating because these guys, like, you know, they're confident. It's like they, they know they're gonna go do a zoom meeting afterwards. You know, like they've scheduled a zoom meeting, something like that, you know, and like, they're like, yeah, I can make it to the ambush, but I can't do the skirmish because, like, I got a three o'. Clock.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's good. Why would that particularly be sensitive?

[Aaron Chen]

I don't know how to. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like just there was a shift. I. I was doing in my special, I do a joke about Ibiza and, And before the Iran war happened, it was like, it was good, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wait, can you say the joke just so people know?

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah. I say that Australia, this is true. Australia's. We. We. We got, we got a visa called the E3 visa. And that was a gift from America to Australia. And because we helped out in the Iraq war. And then I say, so for us, it was not a pointless war.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a good joke.

[Aaron Chen]

And it used to, like, go crazy. Now afterwards, it gets like a less crazy response. But there's like a period in the middle in the setup where, like, the air really leaves the room.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, I think it's cyclical. I think, like, we're in so many of these. Yeah, we are pointless wars.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That I actually think that whether or not something is top of mind is significant to whether or not something. The laugh is big.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, right, Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, I feel like you might want to hold on to that for like a year. Keeping the notebook. Try it again.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah. The suit jacket.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I, I do think, like, it is sensitive. Like, I, I noticed that at clubs is like, when someone goes into something about world events right now, it's like the audience is like waiting.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, which, which way is this? What's the, the point of view on this? Exactly.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I definitely think that's a modern comedy audience change, which is audiences waiting to see if the point of view of the comedian fits with their point of view.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did, I did kind of a free speech focus show the other day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

And it was like a little more like right wing crowd. I think that's the sense that I

[Mike Birbiglia]

Got because they turned on you a little.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you lash out at them.

[Aaron Chen]

No, I didn't lash out at them, but they were. They were kind of sensitive in a way. Like they were kind of scared at what they were laughing at.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the take?

[Aaron Chen]

It wasn't a specific take, but in general there was a bit of like caution around the room, like. Cause it's like kind of if you attack their values, it would be the same as what right wing people think that left wing people. It's like, it's just anyone who you attack their values, they kind of will clam up at that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I completely agree.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I think that there's a lot more of people in the audience being self conscious and self aware of.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What their tribe believes and whether or not they're allowed to laugh based on what their tribe is.

[Aaron Chen]

I think everyone's shutting stuff down now. Oh, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Completely.

[Aaron Chen]

Like, I think the sense was like, if you at that show, like, if you talked about like kind of like woke stuff or whatever, that's the same thing as what happened the other way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I did a show recently where like right before I walked on stage, it was like a corporate show and the person was like, no politics.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Said it in my face. I was like, oh, shit. They must have had a bad experience.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I was like, yes. No politics. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit you like to support? Because what we do is contribute to them and then we link to them in the show notes.

[Aaron Chen]

Imagine. I pick like the worst.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron Chen]

That's a great question. What's your one?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, mine. Mine one typically is. Is food banks.

[Aaron Chen]

Food banks is good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because what I've found over the years is you go to a town, contribute to the food bank. It's a direct relationship between.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This organization and. And people eating and. And they stretch a dollar. Really well. It's just. It's kind of amazing. I get all the literature in the mail.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

From the food banks.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's really impressive what they do.

[Aaron Chen]

Let's do. Let's do Food banks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you want to do it specifically to New York?

[Aaron Chen]

I would love to do it to New York. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. So I'm gonna send a specific shout out to. Because now I follow them on Instagram too. Food bank nyc.

[Aaron Chen]

Great.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It is a great, great organization. Aaron, thanks for. Thanks for being here. Congratulations. Special.

[Aaron Chen]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fantastic.

[Aaron Chen]

Thanks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Working it out. Cause it's not done. Working it out. That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Aaron on Instagram Enny Lifestyle his special Funny Garden is on Netflix. Really, really funny. Check out burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list or text For Biggs to 917-444-7150 to get text alerts and be the first to know about upcoming secret shows and my next tour and all that. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shub Sarin supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Una who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Apple Podcasts. We appreciate it so much. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Tell your low capacity friends. Just text them. Don't call. That might be too much. Just go. Hey, no need to respond, but maybe while you're at home laying down scrolling, you can open up your podcast app and put on Mike Rubiglies. Working it out. Maybe later we can talk about it, but we don't have to plan it. Let's keep it low capacity. Thanks everybody, we're working it out. We'll see you next time.