Advice for New-ish Comedians (with Gary Simons and Listener Questions)

Summary

Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out: Advice for New-ish Comedians (with Gary Simons and Listener Questions) Release Date: May 19, 2025

In this engaging episode of Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, host Mike Birbiglia welcomes comedian Gary Simons for a return visit. Building on their shared experiences touring together during Gary's early stand-up career, the duo delves deep into the journey of emerging comedians, addressing challenges, sharing insights, and answering listener questions.

---

Guest Spotlight: Gary Simons

Mike kicks off the episode by reintroducing Gary Simons, highlighting their two-year touring partnership leading up to Gary's performance in Mike's special, The Good Life. Gary’s ascent in the comedy scene is notable; after joining Mike on tour, he successfully broke into the Comedy Cellar in the fall and has been thriving since October.

[00:10] Mike Birbiglia: "If you are someone who is in the first few years of doing standup or just trying a new kind of creative form, this is a great episode."

---

Evolution in Stand-Up: From Newcomers to Veterans

Gary reflects on his growth over the past few years, emphasizing the importance of stage time in honing his craft. He contrasts his current capacity to attend open mics with the earlier days when he found it nearly impossible to attend as many as 50 a week—a routine suggested by established comedians like Chris DiStefano.

[03:36] Gary Simons: "Last time I was on the podcast, we talked about how, like, the important thing with, like, stand up is just getting as much stage time as possible, which I feel like is true."

Mike shares his own early experiences in Washington, D.C., where open mics were sparse, leading him to perform non-comedic acts like music at available venues. Upon relocating to New York, the abundance of open mics and varied performance opportunities significantly boosted his exposure and performance frequency.

---

Navigating Tough Mics and Building Resilience

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around handling challenging performances and embracing the bombing experience as a stepping stone to improvement. Gary recounts a particularly tough mic in Connecticut where the audience was unaware they were attending a comedy set, leading to unexpected heckling and a loss of confidence.

[05:40] Gary Simons: "Can you stay up there? Can you keep trying to. Can you win them over eventually?"

Mike shares a similar anecdote from Springfield, Missouri, where despite a poor performance, the presence of a talented young comic in the audience provided an unexpected boost.

[07:02] Gary Simons: "They didn't know you weren't supposed to heckle. They just heckled because they're like, you're talking over my game."

Both comedians agree that such experiences, while initially disheartening, ultimately strengthen their ability to perform under adverse conditions and refine their approach for future shows.

---

Balancing Old and New Material

The duo discusses the delicate balance between refining existing material and introducing new bits. Mike introduces his theory of "open strong, close strong," suggesting that comedians should secure their best material at the beginning and end of their sets, using the middle to experiment with new content.

[12:08] Mike Birbiglia: "Open strong, close strong. And then, yeah, use the middle to try out."

Gary echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the importance of having a solid foundation while allowing space for creative exploration.

---

Authenticity vs. Club-Comedy Pressure

A listener question prompts a discussion on maintaining personal authenticity amidst the rhythmic demands of club settings. Mike recounts his initial fear of adopting a "hacky" style influenced by club environments, a concern alleviated by advice from Mitch Hedberg.

[09:39] Gary Simons: "Do you feel like there is any changes that like you did make even though he told you that?"

Mike admits to evolving his style over the years, shifting from the fast-paced, louder delivery suggested by Jeff Ross to a more conversational and personal approach.

[10:27] Mike Birbiglia: "More personal one on one feeling. And by the way, it's not bad advice for being a club act."

---

Overcoming Stage Fright and Self-Doubt

The episode features heartfelt advice for newcomers grappling with self-belief and stage anxiety. Listener Erica poses a question about overcoming societal conditioning that women often face in taking up space on stage.

[17:05] Erica: "As a woman, I...have been conditioned to not take up space...how can I get over that and really start to believe that any given story that I want to tell is actually worth telling."

Both Mike and Gary empathize, sharing their own insecurities and emphasizing the universality of these feelings among comedians. Mike encourages embracing the storytelling aspect of comedy, moving beyond seeking immediate laughs to conveying genuine experiences.

[21:14] Mike Birbiglia: "Tell the story you feel like no one's telling. And I think the more specific that gets and the more it's what you're feeling, potentially the funnier it'll be."

---

Crafting Relatable Yet Complex Characters

Addressing a question about telling stories where the comedian is perceived as unlikable, Mike and Gary discuss the balance between maintaining relatability and managing audience perceptions. They highlight the importance of acknowledging the complexity of situations and the comedian's intentions within their narratives.

[22:32] Listener: "How do you tell a story that makes you seem completely unlikable while still keeping the audience on your side?"

Gary shares his approach of embedding jokes that humanize him, ensuring the audience remains sympathetic despite morally ambiguous actions.

---

Practical Tips for Aspiring Comedians

Throughout the episode, Mike and Gary offer actionable advice for those new to stand-up:

• Mantras for Confidence: Both share personal rituals to boost confidence before performances. Gary utilizes a Wonder Woman pose combined with affirmations to center himself, while Mike employs a grounding-and-inspiration gesture.

  [27:51] Gary Simons: "I tell myself, like, affirmations, like Wonder Woman. Why is it one? Why not Wonder Woman?"

  [27:51] Mike Birbiglia: "Tell stories from the earth. Inspiration from the heavens."

• Experimentation in Open Mics: Emphasizing that open mics are exploratory spaces where everyone is refining their act, Mike encourages viewing performances as collective learning experiences rather than competitions.

  [30:49] Mike Birbiglia: "If this is helpful, for anyone who's going to open mics, it's like everyone's just trying to figure it out."

• Avoiding Perfectionism: They advise against over-rehearsing or memorizing material to the detriment of natural delivery, suggesting instead focusing on conveying ideas and emotions authentically.

  [34:48] Mike Birbiglia: "To not memorize the monologue as much as you're memorizing just bullet points."

---

Conclusion: Embracing the Journey

The episode concludes with Mike and Gary reflecting on their shared experiences and the ongoing process of "working it out" in comedy. They reinforce the idea that authenticity, resilience, and continuous experimentation are key to growth in the stand-up arena.

[43:40] Mike Birbiglia: "Keep finding your point of view. Keep finding your specific take on the... break out the parts that you might have a take on, and then know that if you can come up with a funny take on that, you can include it in the story."

Gary expresses his excitement for future projects, highlighting the collaborative spirit of the podcast.

[44:05] Mike Birbiglia: "There's no... We don't have to stop making jokes, though these versions might joke they'll someday breathe clearer."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Stage Time is Crucial: Regular performances, even in challenging environments, are essential for growth.
• Embrace Failure: Bombing is not only inevitable but also a valuable learning tool.
• Balance Material: Maintaining strong, reliable content while experimenting with new material fosters both stability and creativity.
• Authenticity Matters: Staying true to one's unique voice prevents falling into generic club-comedy traps.
• Community Support: Building relationships with fellow comedians provides encouragement and constructive feedback.

This episode is a treasure trove for aspiring comedians, offering a blend of personal anecdotes, practical advice, and empathetic discussions that illuminate the nuanced path of stand-up comedy.

Transcript

[Mike Birbiglia]

Hey, everybody, it's Mike Birbiglia. We are back with another episode of Working It Out. We have a really cool episode today. We have a return visit from Gary Simons, who is the comedian who actually we toured together for the last two years leading up to this special, the Good Life, which comes out May 26th. If you have Netflix, go on the coming soon part and click on Remind me. That's like a real thing. And it will show up on your Netflix when It comes out May 26th. I'm so excited to share it with you. I have a great conversation with Gary today. If you are someone who is in the first few years of doing standup or just trying a new kind of creative form, this is a great episode. We talk about sort of like, where does one begin? Gary started doing standup a few years ago, and at this point he was on tour with me. He got passed to the Comedy Cellar in the fall, and so he's doing really well. And it's kind of like a next steps conversation today. And we take some questions from Instagram. We talk about doing open mics, we talk about being okay with bombing, we talk about telling stories and feeling like it's worth it to even hear your stories at all. If you want to follow Gary on Instagram, he is Gary from Connecticut on Instagram. Such funny clips from Gary Simons over there. Enjoy my conversation with the great Gary Simons. Welcome back to Working It Out. It's Mike Birbiglia. I'm here with Gary Simons today for the second time. How are you, Gar?

[Gary Simons]

I'm good. I'm good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Gary was on the show two years ago.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Just about up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This came up recently because Ira Glass came on and he was doing stand up for the first time after being a radio icon for many, many years. He's doing standup and he wanted advice on how to stand up. Two years ago, you were a new comic. You just moved to New York. We have this thing in common, which is you were the funniest person on campus, winner at Georgetown University, like 23 years after me or something like that. That's how we met.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then you started opening for me. You opened for me on the whole tour of what is now the Good Life Special, which is very cool. And you killed. And now you're working at the Comedy Cellar, one of my favorite clubs in the world. Or my favorite club in the world.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you've been working there since October. And so now I would say let's touch base with more questions. From someone who you're now, you know, three, four years into being a standup comedian.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, three, four years into standup. But two years ago, I asked questions, like, new comic to a veteran comic about, like, certain things, like, oh, how do you get into clubs? All that kind of stuff. And then I was like, all right, two years later, what are questions I have? What are questions that someone who's, like, around my level would have, who's, like, been doing it longer now, did the things that we talked about in the first episode and now has, like, more questions or discovered new things.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right. And then in addition to that, we asked people on Instagram if they have questions for the first few years doing stand up, then we can answer those together.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, cool. So do you have question you want to start?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Gary Simons]

Okay. Last time I was on the podcast, we talked about how, like, the important thing with, like, stand up is just getting as much stage time as possible, which I feel like is true. Like, I feel like I've improved so much from stage time. I also remember on the Chris DiStefano episode, he said that he would go to 50 open mics, like, a week every week, which I don't. I feel like, almost feels impossible now. Like, I was trying to look find, like, 50 different open mics in a week. But I was curious when you started out, like, how often were you getting up on stage? And then how often do you think a new comic should get on stage in a week?

[Mike Birbiglia]

So when I started in Washington, D.C. there wasn't, like. You're saying there wasn't that many open mics? I mean, there was literally, like, oh, there was a one open mic in Virginia on Wednesday nights at Tyson. In Tyson's Corner, Virginia, at. In the lounge of the Best Western.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then there was. Every now and then, I would. I would do, like, open mics that weren't even comedy. This is in the late 90s. Yeah, I would just do, like, music, open mic, do stand up. Nobody wanted it. And then when I moved to New York, it was like I got pasted some clubs and there were some. Some open mics, and some rooms like, that are booked technically, but they're.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't know.

[Gary Simons]

What do you call them? Books. But, yeah, I mean, I call them, like, I don't know, independent shows, like, bar show. I don't know if you're saying the same bar show people mics, book mics, whatever.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Open mics. Book mics. So I would do a lot of that. I would do, like, a combination of clubs and mics and. And book mics would be, like. I would do, like, like, between three and seven sets a night.

[Gary Simons]

Wow.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Seven nights a week. So I would say, yeah, at the top end, it would be 49. Using that math.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But I don't think I ever did 49 sets in a week. Like, I think. Yeah, I think I probably topped out at, like, 20 to 30 sets a week. But I do think, like, one of the weird things is, like, doing, like, mics that are, like, not great, that are, like, hard is good.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, those are my favorite ones, honestly. Yeah. Like, I was like, the ones that don't feel good. I'm like, I learned the most from this. Like, that. Like, I needed that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you give me an example?

[Gary Simons]

In Connecticut, there's this mic that, like, happened that I don't think. I don't know if it's still around, but it used to happen as a bar where, like, they wouldn't tell anyone that it's a mic. Like, you would just, like, only comedians knew that it was a mic. And then you would just start talking to a microphone while people were, like, watching a game at the bar, and they would heckle you during it. They didn't know. They didn't know you weren't supposed to heckle. They would just heckle because they're like, you're talking over my game. No one. Like, I used to walk off the stage feeling like I think I lost a bit of my body. Like, I think I lost my soul coming off the stage. And, like, I. And afterwards, I used to be afraid of it. And then I was like, but doing that, Mike, if I could go up, do my set and still walk off, Like, I was like, oh, I'm stronger because of it. Like, now, when it goes well, I, like, sure, that's easy. But, like, when it's hard, can you stay up there? Can you keep trying to. Can you win them over eventually?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's weird. It's. It really is like weights in your feet or.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, windsurfing and heavy surf or whatever. It's like. Like, I remember doing a show in Springfield, Missouri. I'll never forget it. It's like, there's, like, a pool table in the back of the room. People are playing. There's, like, a jukebox.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I'm like. I'm like, I'm doing terribly. And then these.

[Gary Simons]

These.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This comic, Tommy Jonigan, who's a really great comic. He. He was young. He was probably 20 years old. He came to see me and he was like, that was great. I was like, that was terrible. Yeah, it was terrible.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And, but it, but it does those, those shows weirdly do make you stronger because I don't know, there's something, there's something about the challenge of it. If you can be interesting enough to, to, to be people, pay attention despite like a hundred distractions.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Then there's something to what you're saying.

[Gary Simons]

I also feel like it's, that situation is always going to happen again. Like it's always going to happen one more time. So it's like if you have that tough mic or that tough room, like going through that experience once and it doesn't go well, it's like, okay, you've learned from it and then it's going to happen again. Like you're going to do a show where there's going to be people who are playing pool in the back again and you're like, okay, now I've done that before. I know what I could change from the last time. I know, like, oh, I should engage this a little bit more. Make a joke about the fact that I'm playing pool. Something like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. What's weird is, is at a certain point you realize that you're never going to get so good or so successful that there won't be a gig where there's bad conditions. Like bad conditions are around your corner always.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean? They're always going to exist. So yeah, whenever you have bad conditions, like, yeah, do, do your best.

[Gary Simons]

Okay, next question. We talked about before, how does someone get into clubs? And like last time we talked about it, it's different for every single person. It's kind of no perfect way to do it. My question is, once that person's figured out a way to get into clubs, how, and in my case I'm wondering it too, like, how do you avoid sounding like, like a club comedian like that and influencing you? Cuz there's a sound and there's a rhythm that can influence you so much that then you start taking that outside of the and it doesn't really work or translate.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, it's so funny when I, I, I had this exact concern when I was like in my 20s and I once I said to Mitch Hedberg, who's my idol, I go, mitch, now that I'm playing clubs, do you. I fear that I'll become hacky. And he was just like, you will never be hacky because you don't like hacky. You don't like hacky. So you'll never become hacky. I thought it was an interesting take, which is like, sure, being in a club, there is a certain rhythm to it, but ultimately if you're doing what you think is funny and some combination of what you think is funny and the audience thinks is funny, and that Venn diagram creates what your comedy is, eventually it's gonna be ultimately you.

[Gary Simons]

Do you feel like there is any changes that like you did make even though he told you that? Do you feel like you changed anything or is there anything you did?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I think like the, I would say the thing that it's like two different ends of the spectrum that I've learned. One is like, I remember talking to Jeff Ross. I opened for him in Baltimore many years ago and he watched my set and he goes, that was good. You should, you should do it faster and louder because if you go faster and louder, you'll kill. And then I went the second show, I went faster and louder and that did kill harder. Yeah, that is a club thing. Faster and louder is a club thing. So there's that. Right. But then over the years I've, I've gone the other way, which is like, no, you know, more, more conversational.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

More personal one on one feeling. And by the way, it's not bad advice for being a club act. Sometimes being faster than Ladder is good, but it's a little bit diminishing returns.

[Gary Simons]

I'm curious for myself and like a lot of people who probably are in like a couple years into it, like, when do you decide that you're done with like an old bit and try working on a new bit? Like, what's your. I guess it's like, what's your process on? Like, okay, today I'm gonna do old stuff and try and refine it versus like I'm to try this new bit that I've been writing out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's like, like an age old question. But it's, it's, it's harder to figure out when you're starting out. Like in the first five, like five to 10 years really, because on one hand you want to get booked again.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah. That's my fear is like, no, no, do the, do the thing. Do work either just work the old thing so that they'd like you and then you can keep going. And I'm like, but I'm like, but I have nothing new if they ask for more.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So it's like a real conundrum. First five or ten years where you're trying to break in, like, okay, I gotta do the thing that works, but then also I need to grow and expand and try talking about new things. And my theory on that is open strong, close strong. And then, yeah, use the middle to try out. One minute, that's new. Two minutes, that's new if you're feeling good. Three minutes, that's new if you're feeling really good, depending on where the crowd's letting you go. But just open strong, clos strong. That's like the biggest thing.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I think, like, you got to get to a point where you work so many different rooms or mics that certain mics feel like you can really let go and just. And just be yourself and go. And then it's kind of great. Because sometimes it's kind of like in tennis or something where you're like. Sometimes when you're swinging away and you're not trying to hit everything in, you start hitting a lot of winners.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I think comedy's like that. It's like, it's like if you can get a relationship with a certain show or certain booker where they're like, hey, have fun with my shows, that's kind of great. Because even if it's a low profile show or whatever, you might be able to explore things about your personality that you never even thought about putting on stage. Because that's the thing about when you're starting out is. And even now, like, I'm still figuring this out. It's like you don't really know what the funniest thing about you is until you try a bunch of embarrassing stuff about yourself.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think as a comic, you have to take chances with making fun of yourself that put you out of your own comfort zone.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think, like. I think like, a dangerous path in comedy is being cool. I think you see that a lot with comics. They get like a good 10 minutes and.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And they're killing with it. And then you see them in 10 years and like, they're still doing the 10 minutes.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then you go, like. You gotta, like, go out of that comfort zone.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, it feels. Yeah. I. I mean, I don't. I don't personally worry about being cool. I don't think that's on my radar of, like, a potential concern. I don't think on st. Off stage people are like, oh, that's a cool guy. I think I only tell embarrassing secrets and stories. The other question I have is a lot of people, there are some comedians who, like, go on stage and they kind of perform a little bit, like, off the cuff, as opposed to, like, they rehearse and plan, like, their jokes. Like, I consider myself as someone who, like, writes it out, kind of knows how I want to say it, says it how I want to say it, and, like, performs that way, but the other people are off the cuff. Do you feel like there's a. One way or another is better and what is your process for that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so funny. When I was. When I was in college, I call. I cold called Jim Gaffigan. I asked him to go to lunch. I've told this story before, but it's a very specific thing from the lunch where he was like. He was like, do you improvise on stage or do you write your jokes out? And I had not considered the idea that you could improvise on stage. I was like, what people improvise stand up comedy. Like, what do you mean? And then years later, probably like, probably like seven years into stand up comedy, I started improvising on stage and I was like, oh, I get it. Because I do think that there's something in stand up comedy where, you know, something could be funny and you put it in front of an audience and the pressure's on. You got to turn it into something that is tangibly funny because they're staring at you. I think over the years, I've gotten better at that. I think that's a. It's like a. It's just a comedy muscle. Over the years, you get better at. Support comes from Wondery's podcast, the Big Flop. The Hamburglar was just a mascot, but Jerome Jacobson was the real deal. A McDonald's security chief who almost pulled off the ultimate inside job. On Wondery's podcast, the Big Flop, comedians join host Misha Brown to chronicle pop culture's biggest fails and try to answer the Asian old question. Who thought this was a good idea? At the time, the McDonald's collab with Monopoly was a genius idea. Come get a Big Mac and go home with a million dollar prize. The only problem, when they picked their head of security, the one guy in charge of protecting the million dollar pieces. McDonald's drew the wrong card. That's wild. Comedians Iffy Wadiway and Beth Stelling. Hey, Beth Stelling. She's been on the podcast. They joined Misha to break down what really went down with the McDonald's monopoly scandal. Listen to the Big Flop wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so we're gonna play some questions from instagram people sent.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, okay.

[Erica]

Hey, my name's Erica and I'm just barely starting out with comedy. I'm taking a stand up class in Seattle and I'm in my 50s since just something I've always wanted to do. And so my question is, you know, we come to the stage with our issues and our confessions and observations and it's kind of what it's about. But like, as a woman, I, like many others have been conditioned to not take up space and you know that our stories aren't worth hearing. So I'm interested in how I can get over that and really start to believe that any given story that I want to tell is actually worth telling. So, like, is that just doing it or is there some sort of inner way to kind of quell that voice that says quit, Especially if you bomb. So that's my question.

[Gary Simons]

Thanks.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I relate to that completely. I mean, I feel like. Do you relate to that?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah, I relate to that. I feel like as a black person, there's also a certain level of like, oh, like, people don't want to hear this. Or like a lot of like, repression about, like, don't tell.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, I have that as a nine person.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. I also have that as a 57 person. It's a bi. It's a bi. It'S a two way thing. I have a lot of identities that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I totally know what you mean. I mean, I have to say, like, first time I told story was as part of the moth and I was like shaking the whole time. You can hear, I have the audio recording. You hear my voice quiver and what the reason it's quivering is intertwined with what she's saying actually, which is like, there's something about telling a story where you're like, why am I doing this? There's an inner monologue where you're like, why am I wasting these people's time with my boring story?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Especially when, when it's in the scent. Like when you're expecting people to laugh and you're like, oh, oh, I just told you. I just told you that. I told you a terrible dynamic in my family. And you're concerned, you're. You're concerned, you're concerned. Oh, you. Or you're following us. You're bored.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, I know. Yeah, that. Oh, I know that feeling. Yeah. When you tell a story and you're divulging something about yourself and they're not laughing, you're just like, oh, I wish this day hadn't occurred.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's A terrible feeling. But obviously, I can't be inside of Erica's experience. Like, everyone has their own experience with all this stuff. But what Erica, what you should know is you're not alone. I think, like, weirdly, like, everyone feels that maybe to different extents. And it is. It really is the jumping in the swimming pool of. Of standup comedy to make the leap to. People should hear this and to honestly, like, trick yourself into believing that they might want to. Because when I was starting out, like, man, did I feel like no one wanted to hear any of the things I was saying.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, I feel like the two things I remember when I was starting out was that I watched someone go on stage and say probably some of the most, like, vile material I'd ever heard, like, said into a microphone. And I was like. I was per. I was offended. Like, I feel like he said something that was, like, racist, sexist, like, all these things. And it was, like, on, like, a book show. And I could tell, like, he thought very highly of himself. And, like, prior to that, I hadn't really considered myself, like, a standup comedian. I'd done some improv, but I wasn't, like, trying to do stand up. And I saw that, and I. And when I saw that, I was like, there's. I was like, there's no reason why, like, he should be able to be talking right now and saying things that I think are actively, like, regressing, like. Like, people in progress in a way that, like, I, like, I wanted to go up there and, like, do comedy and stand up just to be like. Like, it doesn't have to be that way. Like, I don't. Like, I wanted to see the thing that, like, I didn't think I was seeing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I think that's a really smart way to think about it. So I would say to Erica, like, you know, tell the story. Tell the story you feel like no one's telling. And I think the more specific that gets and the more it's what you're feeling, potentially the funnier it'll be. And I think that, honestly, the interplay of getting on stage and the audience reacting could help her get past that inclination to kind of not tell stories or.

[Gary Simons]

Here's the next question.

[Unknown]

Hey, Mike, I'm a big fan of the show. I've been doing standup for three years now, and I'm currently working on a story about how I accidentally dropped a rolly suitcase down an up escort later at the airport, and it almost hit a little old lady with a cane. But luckily, Someone saved her at the last second. The story really works with some audiences, but I'm finding that other audiences feel bad for the old lady and then, in turn, fully hate me. So my question is, how do you tell a story that makes you seem completely unlikable while still keeping the audience on your side? Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I relate very much to what he's saying because basically every single one of my shows has stories contained in it where I'm the unlikable person. And it is especially the early versions of those stories are so hard to tell because you just kind of know. You're like, oh, this is going to be tough, and the audience is kind of gasping, maybe, or not laughing in the right places and all. And it's awkward, you know? But I do think, like, that's the calibration of pov.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In comedy is figuring out how is what you're saying compelling enough to be interesting and funny, but then, like, relatable enough to feel. Feel like the audience could imagine being in your shoes in that story.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So, like, in other words, sometimes you can step out and be like, just keep in mind, you know, I'm worried about the woman also.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's the first thing I'm worried about, but blank. You know what I mean?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would. I'd piggyback that. Like, I would suggest the exact same thing. Like, something that acknowledges that you feel. You recognize what they might be feeling in that moment. I have a joke about, like, using wikiHow to, like, like, tell a friend that I was into her. And, like. Which is a very embarrassing story. It's not exactly the same where people dislike me, but it's such an embarrassing story that people. I can feel people pull back and, like, oh, my God. Type of way.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Totally.

[Gary Simons]

Where I. I've, like, started having, like, a joke that, like, acknowledges, like. Like, I, like, I just want you to know, like, I'm okay. Like. Or, like, some type of thing that, like, lets people know, like, sets the standard so that people aren't, like, worried about other aspects of your life or who you are outside of this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I'm Is good, I think. Like, you know, I have the joke that I'm working on. I've done on a couple episodes where I go. My daughter was swimming in a pool, and it was late at night, and. And she swam into the side and hit her head, and she was bleeding, and she was okay, you know, and the first thing I thought was, like, few. And the second thought was, I'm so glad it was my wife's idea for us to go swimming at night. You know, it's like, it's that first thought of, like, few or. And. And. Or she's okay. That I think a lot of times the audience needs in order to go with a comedic premise that has danger for. Especially for other people. No one wants to see an old lady fall down on an escalator.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. No one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Who's rooting for that?

[Gary Simons]

No.

[Mike Birbiglia]

One eighth of the audience at most.

[Gary Simons]

1 8th?

[Mike Birbiglia]

1 8th?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can't kill with 1 8th. All right, let's try another one.

[Unknown]

Hey, Braviglia.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Easy.

[Unknown]

I am a brand new comic in Chicago, and so I'm so excited that you're taking these questions because your girl needs some advice.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Good girl.

[Unknown]

I am super new, as I mentioned, which is probably even an overstatement. I just took a class at the Lincoln Lodge, which was awesome, and we had a great final showcase. It was my first time on stage and I think it went well. I loved it. I'm excited to be getting out and sharing my material, but I cannot get over the hump of the open mic. It's super intimidating. Everyone that is at these open mics has been doing it for years, so I've been to a few, but I've yet to actually go up on stage myself. So just kind of need a little motivation, a little confidence boost, a mantra, something that has worked for you when you get stage fright or afraid of sharing new material. Maybe it was something that wore off after a few tries in the beginning, but would love any sort of advice to just get me over this first hurdle, get me off the high dive and into the deep end. So excited about all of it. And thanks so much for all the work you guys are doing. You're an amazing inspiration.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's so nice. Well, I'll share my mantra. I've never shared this before. Before I go on stage. Do you know what it is?

[Gary Simons]

I think I know what it is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You've seen me do it.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, well, I see. I don't hear you say it out loud, but I see you. You bend down and you touch the ground, and then you throw your hands up into the sky. And you do that a few times. You do that a few times. And I don't ever say anything because I do my own thing where I'm like. I'm doing a. I usually do, like, a Wonder Woman pose, like, in the mirror. And I tell myself, like, affirmations, like Wonder Woman. Why is it one? Why not Wonder Woman? It's Just like, it's like a superhero.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's different from Wonder Woman and Wonder Man?

[Gary Simons]

Wonder. Well, there's not a Wonder Superman yet.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is someone who really doesn't understand comic books. Yeah. What about Wonder Man?

[Gary Simons]

Wonder Man? I think there is a Wonder man, but I know you're not talking about it. I. I say Wonder Woman because that's how I learned it as Wonder Woman as opposed to Superman. But I do the Wonder Woman Superman pose in the mirror, and I tell myself, like, affirmations. Like, I'm in, like, the help. Like, I'm. Like, I'm smart. Like. Like, you're funny. Like. Like, this is good. Like, I tell myself that usually, which helps give. Like, literally. I think there's a physiological response that happens that helps get, like, the. Like. Like, testosterone up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, completely agree with you.

[Gary Simons]

It's. Which helps.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's a great one. So mine is people can steal this. I bend down. Like Gary's saying, I bend down. I touch the. Touch the earth. I say, I tell stories from the earth, and I reach up to the sky and I go. And I take inspiration from the heavens.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Tell stories from the earth. Inspiration from the heavens. I do it over and over again because I want there to be. I want what I'm doing to be grounded, but then I want there to be a mysticism to it that's outside of greater than myself. That's my goal. That's my. That's my mantra. I've had different mantras over the years I developed. You can steal that one if you want. I will say, I feel you on the open mic front. It's so hard.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

If this is any consolation, when I first started doing open mics, I read.

[Gary Simons]

This is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I read an article in the New Yorker about Richard Pryor, and it said that Richard Pryor would, you know, when he was. Basically. This is a long story short on Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor, for the first part of his career, admittedly, was kind of doing Bill Cosby almost his voice, and like, even kind of very similar affectation, etc. At certain point in his career, and he was making a good living. Like, he was like a Vegas act. Like, he was doing well.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A certain point he decided, I'm throwing away that whole act. I'm gonna build an act from scratch. He started going open mics, and every week he would do, I want to say, like, a completely new 10 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever it was, and it would be completely new. And from that, he would find, like, one minute that worked. And he'd come back the next week and he'd do the one minute plus the 19. 19 new minutes, and you come back the next week, you do two minutes that worked. And 18 minutes I renew. And from that became the legendary Richard Pryor that kind of a lot of us know and love. I read that. I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. Of course. You're, like, so naive when you're a kid. That's what I'm gonna do, you know? So I went to Tyson's Corner, Virginia, to Best Western. Like I was saying, I went this open mic at. I think it was Wiseacres was the name of the quote unquote comedy club at the Best Western. And I have to say, I went week after week, new five minutes every week, and I would bomb so hard, like, and I don't. I think people felt bad for me. Like, I think the other like. Like, comics would come up to me after the show and they'd be like, hey, stick with it. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it would. But it wouldn't be, stick with it. Like, I like you. It'd be like, stick with it. You suck. Maybe someday you won't suc.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So that, that, that's. If. If that's any consolation, do you feel like you have any kind of analogous open mic story?

[Gary Simons]

Most of the material you're watching isn't that great either. And so there, the actual distance between you and, like, a lot of people, what they're trying, isn't that great. And so, like, you're kind of in a space where a lot of people are just trying new stuff, they're working on stuff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great way to look at it.

[Gary Simons]

And so I think that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, that's such a great way to look at it is. And if this is helpful, if to anyone who's going to open mics, it's like everyone's just trying to figure it out. Even if they're pretending that, like, they're doing well or that they have it all figured out or they have anything figured out, if they're in an open mic, chances are they're in an exploratory phase.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, let's try another one.

[Unknown]

Hi, Mr. Biglio Fan here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Whenever I try to. What is this ups doing stand comedy.

[Unknown]

I still never have done it. I always write something down, look into a mirror and try to practice it out loud. But because there's no one there, no one to laugh at it, I always feel like it's not that Funny. And then I psych myself out and.

[Mike Birbiglia]

End up not performing.

[Unknown]

So my question is, how do you overcome that? How do you look in the mirror, say something, get no laughter, obviously, because no one's there, and still convince yourself that's funny enough to say out loud and still go and do it and stand up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. The one thing I'd say about this is I would not look in the mirror. I actually don't think it's for you. Like, I, like, weirdly, like, you're. First of all, we can never see ourselves. Yeah, right.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So. So, so we can never see ourselves the way the audience sees us. What you're trying to do as a comedian is, is weirdly you're not trying to con. You're not trying to convey jokes, you're trying to convey ideas or you're trying to convey stories. Even if what you're doing are jokes, you're just trying essentially to convey. So. So the same way that if you, you know, you ran into an emergency room and you need to explain that there's a woman who fell down on the street and needs help, you're just trying to convey to the doctors and the nurses what happened. Weirdly, that's what stand up comedy is. You're just trying to convey to the audience what your ideas are. It just so happens because it's comedy, those ideas are a little bit nuts.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They're crazy. That's what makes it comedy. Yeah, it's like you're just. And actually, I always say, like, like, like law is a good analogy for comedy. It's like you're making an argument, you're making a case, you're explaining, here's my logic for this thing. It just so happens the thing is a little absurd, but you're making the case as well as you can. The other thing Malenia and I have always talked about, this is like the. The moment you think about an audience laughing, that isn't there. You won't get a laugh. Yeah, Any imagined laugh won't equal a laugh.

[Gary Simons]

I second all those things and those are things you've told me before which really have helped me out. I feel like my thing. I also, I will say I did used to look in the mirror and like, perform myself. 100. I've done that. I would say that usually the first time you're doing like a joke or material at an open mic, you're not really saying it, in my opinion, for the laughs. Like you're saying it to know how it sounds to come out of your Mouth to say it similar to what you're saying, which is like, don't say the lines. Like, say the ideas. It's like the first time you're saying what you wrote it is kind of figure out, like, what is. What is it that I am trying to say? Like, sometimes you say something. You're like, that's too many words. Or sometimes you say something like, that didn't sound right. Or like, you don't even know. You don't have it memorized. So you're, like, trying to memorize it. You're trying to remember how it's going. And then, like, you say it out loud, and you're like, okay, I said that too fast. Or like. Or you know what? Like, I don't need that line. Or that doesn't matter. Or like, okay, I've done one rep of it. I've tried it once. Now it's like, that's right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And also, like, you don't know how long it is.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sometimes you write a bit, and you're like, that'll be a minute. And you're like, oh, that's four minutes.

[Gary Simons]

That's what.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And you're like, I gotta trim words. It's too long.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The other thing I would say as a hack is like, to not memorize the monologue as much as you're. You're memorizing just bullet points.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because I think a lot of times the naturalism of the space between the bullet points is can. It will connect with the audience. You want to run a bit?

[Gary Simons]

All right, well, I'm working on this. This story that I've done on stage a few times. It gets laughs. I think it could use definitely more jokes. And I have an out for it, which I feel like you gave me a good. Like, this is good advice, which was like, whenever you're telling a story on stage or like, working on a new joke, like, have, like, an out for that joke that can work so that if it's not. Either if it's not killing for some reason on a certain show.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Or like I always say, the audience craves an ending.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Yeah. Or.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Gary Simons]

And so it's satisfying in some way. So it has that, I think, and it. And I think it's kind of interesting. People usually are tuned into it, which is, it actually happened at the office, but now I say it happened at my apartment. But I was. I. I had to call my insurance company or I had to call my pharmacy. Had to call my pharmacy to tell them something. But now you can't like, talk to a person. You have to leave a voicemail.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Gary Simons]

So I was, like, leaving a voicemail. And I was like, hey, my name is Gary Simons. My day of the birthday. And then pow. Like, a bird hits the window, like, super hard.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Gary Simons]

Like. Like, it. Like, it. Like, the window, like, turned into a gong. Like, it was like, wow. And then it dropped. Like, it dropped to the. Like, it just fell.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My God.

[Gary Simons]

And it was like. And it's one of the things where it's like, you're so jarred by the intense scene you just took place that you laugh a little bit. Like, I was like, I laughed a bit, but I was still leaving a voicemail. So I was like, hey, Gary Simon, Bow. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, sorry, Gary Simons, Data. And I start slowly walking over to the window to see, like, what's up with the situation. The bird is, like. Is stuck. Is caught between the slats of the fire escape with, like, one wing, like, sticking out.

[Mike Birbiglia]

My God.

[Gary Simons]

And it's fidgeting. It's like, right? And I see this, which is, like, a horror to watch. And I'm still leaving a voicemail.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my God.

[Gary Simons]

So I'm like, oh, shit. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh, sorry. Oh, my God. Oh, sorry. Gary's. Oh, I'm sorry. And then I hang up the phone call. I can't. I can't continue doing it. And I started, like, freaking out because I'm like, how. What am I gonna do about this bird? Because, like, in my mind, there's two such that, like, whether the bird is just injured or this bird is, like, like, about to, like, die or something like that, like, I have to move it out of the situation, save it or, like, whatever. And I. And it's still alive. So I'm like, okay. Like, how, Like, I Google, like, what to do when, like, a bird, like, hits your window and injured. And, like, apparently, like, the number one thing you do on Google is, like, adopt this bird. Like, take it in. Like, take it in. You take it in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So funny.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Like, you're supposed to, like, take it in. Like, let it, like. Like, like nurture it till it can, like, fly off on its own and then let it loose. And I'm like, I don't have insurance. Like, I can't be a parent. Like, I don't care. And then I, like, I keep googling. I find out that what you can also do is you can, like, take the bird, put into, like, try and put into, like, a cushion box, and then take it to A rescue facility.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Gary Simons]

Google rescue facility. Find one that's about to close, like, in an hour. And I'm like, okay, I gotta. I'm gonna save this bird. I got it, right? I find a cardboard box. I start putting paper towels in it to make it soft. As I'm doing it, I'm feeling, like, really good about myself. Like, I'm like, I'm a great. I'm a great person. Like, I started getting emotional because I started thinking. I was like, you know, if I was this bird, like, I was, like, injured, you know, I want someone to help me, too. So, like. So you know what? Like, I'm like, I'm gonna do this. Like, I'm good. Like, and I start taking the box over to the window. And when I get to the window, I see the bird, like, out of the. Out of the slats, perched up on the ledge, just chilling, like, bobbing its head, like, okay. Wow. And then I'm like. I'm like, what?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just.

[Gary Simons]

How did you get out of what? And then the bird looks at me and goes. And then flies off. Flies away. Flies away. I was like, you don't even know what I put into you. Like, you don't. Like, I just put so much work into it. Like, this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Crazy.

[Gary Simons]

And then I. And as I'm thinking of this, I get a call from my pharmacy, and I pick up, and they're like, are you okay?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's funny.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. And then that's, like the. Out of. Like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's good. I. I had one line that occurred to me.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Which is bird flies away. And that's when I knew what it was like to be a parent. Okay. Yeah. That's like. It makes me think of.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Then I could be like, after the phone call with cvs, I could be like, they grow up so fast. Like, they grow up so fast. They grow up so fast.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I. First of all, this. This is an overarching note that. Not necessarily about this bit, but.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But is to all the people who sent voicemails today, and thank you for sending them, is find a comedy buddy. Because Gary and I, we spent a lot of time together. We'll be out on the road, and you'll say this. You'll say a story like that to me. At lunch, I was thinking about doing this, and it's like, honestly, like. Like, one person who has, like, the same goal as you of being a comedian goes so far.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So even this, like, you're saying that story to me, and instantly I'm like, thumbs up on the story in general.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like what works about the story is it's totally relatable. This idea of being on the phone for one thing and then another thing happens. Like, I had one and you can steal this as a line is like, I had one recently where I was leaving a voicemail for someone, and in the middle of it I just started saying things that were just like gibberish and had to do with, like, my dad, who is in front of me, and realizing it's a voicemail. And then I just panic and I just start pressing buttons, thinking maybe it'll be like, you can end this voice now, but none of the buttons are yielding anything.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah, I want to erase this voicemail.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So it's me. So now this person is getting the voicemail and just like manic button push.

[Gary Simons]

And like a DJ set, like, exactly hang up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So, yeah, that. So that might be a funny, like, giving color to, like that front part. But I think the story itself is so relatable. I feel like we've all been in some kind of situation. We're trying to save an animal, save a. Save a thing, save a situation. And then the pride you feel about it makes me laugh so hard. And then, yeah, like, I think the parenting thing that I pitched is decent. I think, like.

[Gary Simons]

Like, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Have you put it on stage yet?

[Gary Simons]

I have done it. I've done it like a few times on stage. And it's like, I think people are interested in the story and they like. Like, they laugh at the ending. Like, I know a couple of beats where it's like, okay, this gets laughs here, but I do think it's. It's too long for the amount of, like, hard jokes that are in it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, that's the thing. I think that what. Right now it's got a ton of plot. We talked about this in the Hourglass episode. So much of jokes and storytelling is you got a little plot and you got jokes about the plot, which is how you feel about it, and you got more plot and you got jokes about the plot. You have a. That's an example of. There's too much plot.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, there's. There's tons of great plot.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that could be a 15 minute bit.

[Gary Simons]

True. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, that could be. If you developed jokes that are the equivalent length of the story itself.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, that's going to be gold.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think you just have to figure out what's your point of view about like, like just a few prompts are like, how do you feel about people saving animals?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How have you ever felt good about yourself? Have you have self. You know, you have pride about yourself.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because then. Then we'll laugh more about you being like, wait a minute, I feel good about myself.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I think. I think, like, a lot of things like in that story are like, honestly, how do you feel?

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, it's like. It's like, you know, one year, like, I went and I found, like, my girlfriend, she lost the ring in Central park, and I went and I, like, found that exact replica of that ring, bought it and gifted it to her, and I felt proud. But nothing compared to this bird. Nothing compared to what saving this bird would be like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fixing bird is next level pride.

[Gary Simons]

Saving a life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Saving a life.

[Gary Simons]

Saving a life.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You. You right here in this audience, you're looking at a hero.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah, I'm. Yeah, I've. Now I know how, like, doctors feel.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Heroes don't all wear capes, but some of them heal birds.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah. Some of them don't have insurance. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Don't have insurance. Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I think, like, that's how I would just keep going with that.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I just think it's. Keep finding your point of view.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Keep finding your specific take on the. On the, like, break out the parts that you might have a take on, and then know that if you can come up with a funny take on that, you can include it in the story.

[Gary Simons]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Gary, this has been a blast. You're. I think you're killing. I think you're doing a great job.

[Gary Simons]

Thank you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I can't wait to see when you decide to release your comedy special. Working it out. Cause it's not done. We're working it out.

[Gary Simons]

There's no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We don't have to stop making jokes, though these versions might joke they'll someday breathe clearer.