BEST OF WIO: Mike Reads a New Piece of Writing, Plus Elizabeth Gilbert Re-Air

Summary

Summary of "BEST OF WIO: Mike Reads a New Piece of Writing, Plus Elizabeth Gilbert Re-Air"

Mike Birbiglia's "Working It Out" presents a heartfelt and insightful episode featuring acclaimed author Elizabeth Gilbert. This re-airing, enriched with a new piece of writing by Mike, delves deep into themes of creativity, self-compassion, and personal growth. The conversation is both engaging and enriching, providing listeners with valuable perspectives from two creative minds.

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Introduction to the Episode

Mike Birbiglia introduces the episode by recounting a humorous yet poignant encounter with Elizabeth Gilbert at an airport immigration line, highlighting the cultural impact of her bestseller, Eat Pray Love. This anecdote sets a warm and personal tone for the ensuing dialogue.

Mike Birbiglia [00:55]: "I believe it."

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Exploring Creativity and Writing

The heart of the episode revolves around a deep conversation on creativity and the writing process. Elizabeth Gilbert shares her experiences and philosophies that have shaped her illustrious career.

Elizabeth Gilbert discusses her books, including Eat Pray Love and Big Magic, emphasizing the latter's focus on creativity. She highlights the importance of writing from personal experiences, a theme both she and Mike resonate with.

Elizabeth Gilbert [10:23]: "I don't plan to when I'm in, and I'm like, this feels very precious and very dark and very private. And then gradually it's like, hey, guys, you know what happened to me?"

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Developing Self-Compassion Through Writing

A significant portion of the discussion centers on self-compassion and the therapeutic aspects of writing. Elizabeth introduces her Substack project, Letters from Love, an initiative encouraging individuals to write letters of self-compassion.

Elizabeth Gilbert recounts her own journey with self-compassion during challenging times, detailing how writing these letters provided solace and clarity.

Elizabeth Gilbert [40:35]: "So, this was the thing that I heard. You don't need to get better for us to love you."

Mike Birbiglia reflects on the emotional impact of these practices, drawing parallels to his own methods of coping through humor.

Mike Birbiglia [45:48]: "It reminds me of this great Ginsburg quote that I think of all the time, which is, observe what's vivid."

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Balancing Personal Life and Creativity

The dialogue transitions into balancing personal life with creative endeavors. Elizabeth shares her decision to prioritize solitude over relationships to nurture her creativity, a choice that has significantly influenced her work.

Elizabeth Gilbert [36:00]: "I'm so greedy for this beautiful experience of."

Mike Birbiglia connects with this sentiment, discussing how personal experiences and vulnerabilities fuel his comedic material.

Mike Birbiglia [32:15]: "It's using you. You know, it's using you."

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Navigating Fame and Public Perception

Both hosts delve into the challenges of fame and public perception. Elizabeth recounts the mixed reactions to Eat Pray Love, emphasizing how it was never intended for certain audiences yet gained massive popularity.

Elizabeth Gilbert [17:28]: "But it was never marketed to them, targeted to them or for them. So a bunch of people who it's not speaking to were like, I hate this thing."

Mike Birbiglia shares his experiences with how his personal life narratives are perceived and critiques the expectations placed on public figures to share their vulnerabilities.

Mike Birbiglia [13:19]: "I'm doing that for my profession than I also do it in my life."

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Advice for Aspiring Writers and Creators

The episode offers invaluable advice for writers and creators. Elizabeth encourages embracing the creative process without the pressure of external validation, stressing that the act of creation itself is fulfilling.

Elizabeth Gilbert [23:02]: "There has to be another reason to make art besides, like, I've written books no one's read."

Mike Birbiglia emphasizes the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in creative work, advocating for genuine storytelling over superficial engagement.

Mike Birbiglia [30:28]: "And I really love this line in The Bhagavad Gita 5000 year old wisdom that says, you're entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor."

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Heartfelt Anecdotes and Personal Stories

Throughout the episode, Elizabeth shares touching personal stories that illustrate her philosophies on life and creativity. One memorable story involves an encounter with her grandfather, blending humor with profound life lessons.

Elizabeth Gilbert [10:56]: "He goes, lizard, if I'd known you were here, I would have put my teeth in."

These anecdotes not only entertain but also provide deeper insights into her resilience and outlook on life.

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Closing Reflections and Future Endeavors

As the conversation draws to a close, Elizabeth reflects on her ongoing projects and the personal growth she continues to experience through writing. Mike wraps up by expressing admiration for Elizabeth's work and the impact of their shared insights.

Elizabeth Gilbert [65:10]: "Thanks, Mike."

Mike Birbiglia [65:20]: "This interview is over."

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Conclusion

This episode of Working It Out is a blend of humor, wisdom, and heartfelt conversation. Elizabeth Gilbert and Mike Birbiglia offer listeners a profound exploration of creativity, self-compassion, and the human experience. Through personal stories and thoughtful dialogue, the episode serves as an inspiring guide for anyone navigating the complexities of creating and living authentically.

Notable Quotes:

• Elizabeth Gilbert [23:03]: "There has to be another reason to make art besides, like, I've written Books no one's read."

• Mike Birbiglia [30:28]: "You're entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor."

• Elizabeth Gilbert [40:35]: "You don't need to get better for us to love you."

Key Takeaways:

• The creative process is inherently valuable, independent of external success or recognition.
• Self-compassion and personal storytelling are essential for both personal growth and creative expression.
• Balancing personal life with creative endeavors requires intentionality and often solitude.
• Navigating fame involves managing public perception and maintaining authenticity.

This episode is a must-listen for those seeking inspiration and a deeper understanding of the intertwining paths of life and creativity.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I was coming into the country from Central America in New York at jfk and I was traveling alone. I gave them my passport. And the woman's like, what was the nature of your travels? And I said, just traveling around. And she was a little suspicious, I think. And she's like, what's the nature of your work? And I said, a writer. And she said, what kind of things do you write? And I just said like, well, I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat Pray Love. And she goes, you're Eat Pray Love. You're Eat Pray Love. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey. And she starts like calling down the line of everybody, like not the, but the other immigration people. And she's like, this is Eat Pray Love. And I'm like, why are they having this reaction? And then she's like, no, you don't know. Every day women are coming back into the country alone. And I say, what were you doing? And they say, I was having my own Eat Pray Love. Multiple times a day we hear this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I believe it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And she's like, I can't believe you're the actual one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Crazy. That is the voice of the great Liz Gilbert, Elizabeth Gilbert. This is a best of all time episode from the fall. We are re airing it but with a new piece of writing today because Liz came on the show and she's widely known for her book Eat Pray Love, which was sold like 10 million copies or more. Just this mega, mega book made into a movie starring Julia Roberts as Elizabeth Gilbert. She also wrote a book called Big Magic, which I love about creativity. Anyway, she has this substack and it's called Letters from Love. And the prompt of it is love. What would you have me know today? And so on the show today, she encourages me to write one for her sub stack and I was very resistant. We talk it through, you'll hear on the episode. But I ended up writing it and she posted it in her substack last week and I think it came out really well. So I'm, I'm gonna read that for you in a moment, but we have a great talk today. This week I am at the Beacon for the finale of the Good Life. Last week I was in in Los Angeles at Largo and we had so many special guests, John Mullady and Otsuko Okatsuka and Zach Galifianakis and it's all these really cute photos on my instagram [e-mail] bigs and this week is the grand finale of my tour which has been going on for two years. It's been called Please Stop the Ride, and now it is called the Good Life at the Beacon Theater. Six shows. All shows sold out except there's a few seats left. Tomorrow, Tuesday. All of that is on burbigs.com so that's this week at the Beacon Theater. But first, I'm. I'm going to read this little piece of writing that I wrote that Liz Gilbert encouraged me to write called Letters from Love. Again, she has a substack that is fantastic where she has a guest writer each week write a letter from Love. And there's something about it where, you know, obviously I have emotion in my shows, but I have humor that bounces off the emotion. And so I think in some ways I. The balance of that is something I'm comfortable with. And a quote, unquote letter from Love was something that was just kind of pure emotion. And so it was challenging. And Liz gave me really good advice, which I will give to you if you ever do this exercise on your own, which I encourage you to do, which is. She goes, just write. Sit down and write for five minutes. And if you want to keep going, keep going. And if not, then not. And it's just, honestly, as a writer, great piece of advice. So here is my letter from love. Dear Love, what would you have me know today? Hey, Mike, it's love. I've literally been texting you for months. Do you not get these? Anyway, I won't take it personally. I mean, I will, but then after that, I'll bounce back. After all, I'm pretty open to forgiveness. I'm love. It's one of my strongest qualities. Since you may or may not read this, I will put my thoughts in bullet points, since that's the way your director Seth gives you notes on your show and you listen to him. Again, I'm not bitter. I'm just noticing that you listen to him and also your wife Jenny, and also your daughter Oona, but then also, like, random people you've never spoken to on Instagram. Not that it matters, but it seems like you spend more time scrolling on Instagram than responding to me, which is odd, since I'm literally unconditional love of you. Sorry. Even love gets emotional sometimes. Most times, every second. Anyway, here are my bullet points on how you might be more open to receiving me. Love number one. Remember last night at dinner when your wife said she was putting on a cloak of invisibility and you and your daughter tested it by walking through the area of invisibility and then you poured salad dressing on it. And you and Oona and Jenny were laughing so hard. That's the best your life is gonna get. Sorry. But also, you're welcome. That was me. Love number two. Remember the other night when you were performing your show in Baltimore and you gave your whole self to the audience and there was a deep connection for one whole hour with 500 complete and total strangers? That was me again. I mean, it was you, but also it was me. And also, at the risk of sounding repetitive, it was the best your life is going to get. Number three, watching the movie Wicked with your daughter for the seventh time. Me again. Number four. Remember last week when you realized that for 10 years your wife and daughter have been using your closet as garbage? There was like a stick with a nail coming out of it and like a beige tarp and some of Oona's old stuffed animals and the whole thing felt like the strangest serial killer starter kit ever. That was me. That was love. Actually, this is a two parter. Your family feeling comfortable enough to put their junk in your closet is part one. And then you feeling comfortable enough to make a joke about it and laugh with Jenny and Oona, that's part two. That's love. Also, number five, if you're not seeing the pattern, here's a catch all. When you're existing and giving, that's love. When you're numb to your own existence, that's not. Not love. But it might not be the best use of time. I mean, you might be dead in five minutes or five years or 50 years. No one knows. Dark, right? But also awesome. Anyway, someone had to tell you. I figure it might as well be love. No need to text back. I'll be here regardless. Love. Love. So that's my letter from Love that was inspired by Liz Gilbert. And we have such a great little episode today. I actually reference this episode all the time because I think it has some of the most wisdom that anyone has ever had about writing on the show. And very unusual guests for us. We don't usually have authors. We have mostly comedians. And so it's a very unique guest in that way. So I love this episode and I think you will too. And if you want to watch it, it's on YouTube. Just go on YouTube and search Mike Birbiglia and Elizabeth Gilbert and you'll see Working it Out with Mike Birbiglia and Elizabeth Gilbert and you can catch all the body language. Enjoy my conversation with Elizabeth Gilbert. I'm here with Elizabeth Gilbert. Can I call You, Liz. Other people do. I'm trying to take my cue from other interviews.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Please call me Liz or even Lizzie. And that's even better.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you can call me Liz. So Lizzie. Yes, Lizzie came in with gifts for me. And Mabel and Gary are producers of stickers that say you are loved. And if I had told someone that this is what you did, they would say there's no way. You're just. You're. That's. That's. What would be the movie version of Liz Gilbert showing up at your studio.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Cookies.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's in cookies. You brought cookies for Halloween. It's extraordinarily on brand. Just a little. Do you ever find yourself too on brand for yourself? Does it ever feel like this is too much? No, I think it's lovely.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Thank you. I'm glad. I'm glad you like it. I guess I'm pretty on. I'm trying to think I'm more. I like, I like it when I'm off brand. Like people don't think that I tell filthy jokes, you know, Like, I don't know, like that's really more of what I came from. I grew up with a bunch of alcoholic uncles. Oh gosh. And there are some of my favorite memories of my entire life is just being a kid at a table with a bunch of very drunk men who didn't give a shit that there was an eight year old girl sitting there. That's really interesting. And were just like unleashing the most outrageous humor and outrageous stories. And they were great. You know, like, it was so great. It was so. And I've always kind of loved being in that. So in a way, like we're kind of jumping right into it. But when I became the Eat Pray Love lady, that to me felt a little off brand. Cause like, I was like, how did I become like a spiritual leader?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cause you come from in what you viewed as sort of a crasser background.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. And I was a bartender and I worked on a ranch and I wrote for men's magazines for 10 years and you know, but. And then I was like, oh, I guess I'm like a woman's woman now. You know, Like I'd always kind of been a man's woman and then I became like the ladies woman. And then I was like, well, that's great because they're wonderful. And now I like the men and the women. So I don't know. It's more surprising to me that I'm the Eat Pray Love lady than that I'm not. If that makes sense.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

But I do love giving stickers to people that tell them that they're loved.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it's. Do you remember Body joke from when you were a kid?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you remember any of them?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, my God, I remember all of them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you say one without it being.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I'll give you an even better. I'll give you a body story. Okay. From my grandfather, who was the funniest person I've ever met in my entire life and took up the whole room and every room he was in. I went to visit him when he was 96, and he was also, like, kind of buff, kind of like an athlete. Like, he was just this, like, power.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Man into his 90s.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. And he came down. I was staying at their farmhouse, and he came down the stairs one morning while I was staying there, and he'd forgotten I was there, and he was totally naked. And I had two thoughts. One was, this is very embarrassing. And the other one was like, he's fucking ripped. Like, he was 96, but he had, like, chiseled, like. I was like, dude's been, like, doing farm works. He was so strong. He didn't have his glasses on. He didn't have his hearing aids in. And I was sitting on the couch reading, and he bent over, like, right in front of me to, like, start working on the fire. And I'm like, grandpa. Hey, Grandpa. You know? Hey. Just trying to get his attention. Like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't want to embarrass you or freak you out, but, like, I'm here. I think he forgot I was staying there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And he finally heard me, and he turned around really, really slowly, and he looked at me and he goes, lizard, if I'd known you were here, I would have put my teeth in.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a great line.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Hilarious. They were funny. Like, those childhood memories of just being in the storm of humor and total inappropriateness, like, were so great. I wouldn't have changed that for anything.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I know what you mean. It's funny. Like, you're saying you're the Eat, Pray, Love person, but, I mean, you and I have that in common, which is we write. The subject of a lot of our writing is our own lives, which is a safe thing to write about, generally, because it's yours. And so you can spin it however you wish and thematically take it where you want to take it, but it's. Do you ever get sick of yourself writing about yourself?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yes. And I'm like, I'm not gonna do that anymore.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

After each time I do it, I'm like, that's it. No more. You know, but then life gets lifey and interesting and needs to be processed and things arise that I wanna figure out. And I don't know about you, but I feel like I figure out my life by writing about it and talking about it. Yeah. I mean, I'm going into these subjects because I want to understand what happened or why I'm like this or so, you know, I'll probably keep doing it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's a joke in my current. A joke in my current show right now is I go, jenny, my wife, describes me as the narrator of our marriage who nobody asked for. I'll be scrubbing the dishes in this sink. I'll be like, I'm doing the dishes.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're like the CNN ticket.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good tag for it, actually. Yeah. I'll be like, I'm going to grab ice cream for your parents.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're live tweeting the marriage.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, exactly. And she'll be like, you don't have to say all that. You can just do it. And then it'll be done. And I do a lot of stuff too, and I don't talk about it, I just do it. Then it's done. I'm like, I'm going to give you five points for that there on the whiteboard. But, yeah, that's definitely my Achilles heel is I do that for my profession than I also do it in my life.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, but what do people want? Who was it? I'm trying to think. I think it was the writer Megan Tom, who said, when people accused memoirs of being oversharing, and she's like, well, how do you want your memoirs?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's great.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Under sharing. That's not a very effective. I always have a very dramatic, glamorous idea that one day I'm just gonna close the veil. And I'm like, that's enough. I've. You people have gotten enough of me, you know? And then I just don't because I'm. I'm. I also like the engagement. Like, I like. I like talking to people. I like talking about life. I would be a little bored behind the closed veil.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, no, no, I feel the same way. And also, it's like, you're. We're only alive for a short time, so what are you holding onto?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean? It's like, what's the point?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, you get a. I mean, every. And also, like, that's the thing about memoiring. When people go, I can't believe you tell everybody everything. I go, everyone knows everything already, right? You think you're keeping secrets from people they know, right?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

When I was going through my. The divorce that led to E Pray, Love, which was incredibly dark time and a horrible time. And somebody very facetiously quoted that, like, nothing bad ever happens to a writer thing, well, at least it's gonna be great material for something. And I remember the righteous, like, I rose up on my hind legs, like, as if I would ever, ever exploit this great, tragic, dark, precious, depressed, anxious, suicidal moment of my life to write about for public, you know. Cut to, like, three years later is Ypres. Love the movie, you know? You know, and I'm like, you know, but at the time, I think I don't plan to when I'm in and I'm like, this feels very precious and very dark and very private. And then gradually it's like, hey, guys, you know what happened to me?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, two years ago, like, let's. I don't know, let's open it up, let's unpack it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Do you get sensitive about. Cause like, you similar to Lin Manuel Miranda, where he had this hit musical that was beloved, and then it went wide onto. It was filmed and then it went to an exponentially large audience, and all of a sudden everyone has a take. Do you ever feel that way with your book where it got so big that you were like, you guys actually don't get what this is.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Even I felt like that when it was. I watched the approval and disapproval of me projection kind of the sine wave go. And I think because I'd been in media for so long and because I'd been a journalist and like, I'd worked on pieces where people were analyzing like, oh, this person is falling from favor. This person is rising in favor. Like, I think I was able to sort of look at it from a slight remove. But I remember when it was sort of peak Eat Pray Love and it was peak people hating Eat Pray Love, you know, which goes where it had become sort of a joke and an insult. And it was fashionable to hate it. And I was thinking like, well, it's gotten so big that a whole bunch of people who it was never meant for have found it. And now because there's a zeitgeist around it, they have to have an opinion about it. But it was never marketed to them, targeted to them or for them. So a bunch of people who it's not speaking to were like, I hate this thing. And I'm like, I Bet you do. I never intended for you to read it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It wasn't meant for you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It wasn't for you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It wasn't for you. But then I remember saying to my husband at the time, I think we're like, five minutes from. There's gonna be, like, a hipster backlash reappreciation, where it's gonna suddenly become cool to be like, no, actually, Eat, Pray, Love is a good book, and Liz Gilbert's a good writer, and that will be the cool position for somebody to take, you know? And, like, it's like, five, four, three. And, like, the first piece came out like that, which is like, you're all hating on this, but in fact, you know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. And that's where I stand on it. Because I. I wasn't part of the first wave because, like, you're saying it wasn't for me. But then when people started weighing in on so hard, I was like, this person is a really, undeniably. A really good writer and really earnestly discussing her journey. So if that's not for you, can you get out of the way? Like, this is her deal. This is not for you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's okay. Go back to the things you like.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. Go to the things you like.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I also wonder why people finish reading books that they hate if they're not paid for it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, like, if I hated anything as much as some people hated Eat, Pray, Love, I would have stopped reading on page five.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Totally.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Because, like you mentioned, life is very short. I'm also not a completist when it comes to any media. It's like, it's the job of the author or the artist or the creator to make me want to stay with something. And if they don't, that's not my problem. I'm leaving 100%, you know? So I'm like, why did you. Why did you finish it so hard? Like, why did you read it in such a frothy sweat?

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's a good way to look at it, too. Yeah, but what about, like, you have this great book called Big Magic, and it's a book about creativity, and it's about writing, and it's all these anecdotes about. Actually, my favorite anecdote is the. Is the Warner Herzog, a great film director, where your friend. A friend of yours wrote a letter to Werner Herzog completed and said, hey, how come my movies aren't successful? The. The marketplace is so unfair, blah, blah. And I'm paraphrasing, but basically wrote back, like, get a camera or steal a camera. However you get a camera, shoot a movie and essentially make another one. Make another. Make another one. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And quit your complaining. Nobody wants to hear it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, that's a good.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, very directly said, like, nobody wants to hear it. It's not my favorite line in that letter. And Herzog wrote back to him, which I think is amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's amazing to me.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And said, it's not the world's fault that you want to be an artist, and it's not the world's responsibility to make you be a successful artist. That's your problem. You know, like, stay, get to work. Why are you writing me a letter and not making a film? Also, who would think to write to Werner Herzog for sympathy?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I thought it was interesting.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I mean, I thought it was an interesting thing. But the thought, like, you know, who could really. Who would really come for me?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. Who'd really come for me is that guy. Yeah, yeah. This really stern man with a famously serious voice.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Uncle Werner.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Having a hard day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I just thought it was funny that somebody went there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you're so. You. You have all these great inspirational stories, and it's, like, about writing and opening yourself up to inspiration, all this kind of stuff. What about the person who writes every day, does the work, shows up 30 years in, 40 years in goes. People are just not finding this work. They're not connecting to this work. It's one of those things where you go, well, you wrote a book about creativity, but you're from the perspective of someone who's wildly successful at creativity. Does it work for everybody?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't think anything works for everybody. True, Right. Like, I think that's the curiosity of the human, spiritual and creative path. And I think the spiritual and creative path are the same thing, which is like, how am I going to get through this? And you have to borrow from so many different ideas and find your way and try things on. You know, like, nowhere would I say that big magic is a prescription for anybody. And I also would. In speaking to somebody who's been working for 30 years and hasn't had any success, I'd be pretty careful about being, like, humble, about being like, just stick with it. It's great. Like, if I'd had 30 years of writing with no success, I'm not sure that I would have wanted to stick with it. So I think I would just want to be respectful of the situation that they're in. And there has to be another reason to make art besides, like, I've written Books no one's read.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, because I needed to write them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And like, there's, there's multi. There's multiple strands of reasons that we create work. And not all of it is about the market. A lot of it is, but not all of it is. And, and, and I've also, like, I wrote a book that was canceled like, two years ago. I saw that, you know, like, so I've, I've had experience with like, before it was published, you know, like, that I worked for years. Yeah. Yeah. And there was something, I mean, that's a whole big story that I don't need to get into other than to say the same thing that got me through, like, seven years of rejection letters is the same thing that got me through the massive success of Eat Pray Love is the same thing that got me through a book being canceled is the same thing that gets me to my desk every morning. There's a, there's a through line that goes through all of that, which is, I really love doing this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And, and I really love this line in The Bhagavad Gita 5000 year old wisdom that says, you're entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And I feel like that's the wisest possible way to work. And that might not be very comforting to somebody who's like, I'd like some fruit for my labor, you know, but is the labor. I don't know how you feel about this, but I've always felt to a certain extent the making of the thing is the best part.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And when my editor, like, when we decided to pull the book, and she was very lovingly saying to me, like, this is so tragic. Like, you worked for three years on this book. It's a beautiful book. And I was. But I hadn't seen it. I was like, sarah, if you knew how much I love doing this, like, if not one minute of that was wasted time. Like, the best memories I had of the previous three years were sitting alone in a room writing that book. And I know from having written so many books, nothing that comes after is ever better than the moment when it's. When you get it. Like when you're like, oh my God, it's happening. Like, the whole thing is coming together. I see how this works now. Like, no praise, no glory is ever better than that. It's, you know, like nothing. That's the thing. That's the kind of. Because then you're in that that collaboration is happening and the current is flowing through you, and you're meeting it with the heat, and you're right on the edge of this is. I'm almost not gifted enough to do this, but I'm. But somehow it's working. And, like, you know, the thing's running on itself, and I'm not even driving it anymore. Like, there's. I mean, I hope that I would keep doing that whether anybody ever saw it or not. I sure did for a long time. But if people aren't getting enjoyment out of it, don't do it. There's no reason. Yeah, of course there's no reason to do it if it's not a pleasure.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The Russian novel to me, you know, being completely outside of it, I read that headline of, like, you canceled this Russian or they canceled someone canceled.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I canceled it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You canceled this Russian novel because of. People objected to it based on the Ukrainian war. But isn't it based in Russia in the 30s or 40s? It's from another era.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, but it doesn't really have anything to do with. It's just not the right moment for it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And. And. And when I read what people were saying, what Ukrainians were saying, it made.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sense to me, even though they hadn't read it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Doesn't matter.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Doesn't matter.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, they. And I have. I mean, I think also I have. I've been published in Ukraine for a long time, and I. And Ukrainians are passionate, devoted readers, famously. And like, the publishing house that I work with in Ukraine is one of the oldest publishing houses in Europe. Like, they take reading really seriously, and they take literature really seriously. And I think I. And, like, Eat Praylov was a bestseller in Ukraine, you know, and I think I heard from every single one of my readers in Ukraine, and the tone changed based on how reactive people felt about it, but the message was consistently like, hey, could you maybe not right this minute, publish a book that pulls the attention of the world toward Russia when we're doing everything we can to keep the attention of the world on the struggle that we're having, trying to not be killed.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I get that.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, could you maybe not, like, is this really the time for this? And my thought was, I think you're absolutely right. You know, like, my inclination if, like, tens of thousands of people who are suffering and being oppressed and murdered rise up in one voice collectively to take the time from when they're getting killed to say to me specifically, could you not do this thing?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It would be easy on the book. Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Hurtful for us. My inclination is not to Be like, no, it wouldn't. It's not even about you. You know, it's like, okay, got it heard.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That helps me understand it a little bit more because I feel like I would have a similar reaction, but when I read it, it felt like an Internet mob and not real people reaching out and saying, this is upsetting.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

There was an Internet mob that happened around it because there is always. But at its core was a very articulate. Like, a very articulate plea. Yeah, that felt very reasonable to me. And also, like, life is long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah. Life is long.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, life is long. The book is done. It's in the vault. It's like, cool. We'll just. Yeah, we'll just hang on to that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There will be a time for it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. Or there won't. It's not. I don't have the right to the fruits of the labor. I only have the right to the labor. That's right. And I don't want to do anything that feels like it's out of my own integrity just to prove a point that I can.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Support for. Working it out comes from rinse. Let's talk about laundry. We have not talked about laundry on this show enough. I've thought about laundry a lot in my life. I lived in New York City a long time, which means hit or miss on the laundry front. Spent a lot of time with laundromats over the years. Cover 2 Drink Mike, me and a laundromat. I think it was in Reno, that laundromat. I was performing at a NACA convention for college bookings across the country, and I was doing my laundry at a laundromat, and I took that selfie, and it's the COVID of Do Drink Mike, the album. Anyway, enough about laundromats. Rinse is better than Laundromats. That's why I'm talking about Rinse. Rinse picks up professionally, cleans, delivers your laundry and your dry cleaning right at your door. Your clothes are perfectly cleaned according to their care label and the rinse service you select. Schedule your pickup any day of the week via the rinse app or rinse.com sign [e-mail] and get 20 bucks off your first order. That's R I N S E dot com. Support for working it out comes from Helix. I love my Helix mattress. If I could bring it on tour with me, oh, man, I would love that. I don't think I could get it on a plane, but if I could, I would bring it out there because, man, I stay in a lot of hotels where I'm like, man, I wish I had my Helix mattress with me. And I'm talking major hotels, two and three star hotels. Even in really good hotels, you see some mattress for a week, you go, what has this been around 25 year old mattress? It's crazy. I love my Helix mattress so much. And I have never slept better than on my Helix mattress. And that's saying something. Because if you listen to this podcast and you know my comedy, you know I have sleep issues. So it's a high bar. And my Helix mattress never lets me down. Always comfy, always cozy. Your sleep will never be better. Go to helixsleep.com burbigs for 27% off sitewide. That's helixsleep.com biggs for 27% off site wide. Helixleep.com Briggs I even got my own URL. It's good. I love this thing in Big Magic where you go, like, being a writer again, I'm paraphrasing probably terribly, but it's not a job. It's a thing that you are and you choose to do essentially. And if you are paid for it or compensated for it, that's great, good for you. But it's never to be counted on.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No. In fact, I get hives when people tell me that they're quitting their job to do something in the arts. Because I always say, like, I didn't quit my day jobs to be like, only an artist till my fourth book. Till after my fourth book. And my fourth book was Eat, Pray, Love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And until then, I had. I always had so many multiple strands of income because the feeling I had was like, I don't want to put the pressure on my creativity that it has to support me. Because then my experience with that is it makes creativity shrink away in fear. You know, like, I want to be. I will be the sugar mommy for my own work, so I'll go wait tables and be a bartender so that my creativity doesn't have to support me. That's the view that I had toward it. It's like my responsibility to support it. It's not its responsibility to support me. And so I know people who've quit their job and then move somewhere to write a novel, and the entire time all they're thinking about is like, how am I gonna pay my mortgage? Like, how are you gonna write a novel when all you're thinking about is that, yeah, you know, like, just also, who can write eight hours a day? On my best days, I write like two hours a day. On my best days.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

How come? Because it takes everything out of you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. I don't have the. I can't do it longer than that. It's draining when I'm in deep writing mode. Like, I write for two hours a day, and I spend the rest of the day sort of like, staring at the wall, drooling, like, just like, what just happened?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I totally relate to that.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, just like walking around with a vacant stare.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I think that's true. Particularly when it's working.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like. Cause you're basically possessed by all these characters.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's using you. You know, it's using you. And then you're thinking about it the rest of the day. Dreaming about it at night. Yes. You know, it's nice to live alone when you're working on a novel. That's interesting because I've lived with people and felt like I wasn't a very good partner to them when I was working on. And I didn't really want to be.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I really wanted to just be with the thing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You have this great thing that you said I thought was so wise about being sort of relationship celibate, which is that I don't know if it's still true, but for a period of years, you weren't in a relationship. And part of the thing you were observing was, are the things that I was projecting possibly onto my partner things that were just on me?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And are you still not in a relationship? And you're still not.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Still not.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And do you. What's your observation about the experience?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's so good. And I say that with, like, the greatest love for the wonderful people that I've been with. But I've never been in a relationship. That's better than not being in one. Oh, my God. It's such a terrible thing to say. I feel like it's an illegal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This interview is over.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I feel like it's an illegal thing to say, but it's. But. And when I look at Hot Take. When I look at the relationships that I admire, it's so telling that the thing about the relationships that I admire the most is the relationships where the people give each other the most space. In other words, the thing that I think looks like, oh, that looks like a good relationship is the one where people don't ask very much of each other. Right. And I'm like, well, maybe you just don't want to be in a relationship.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And there's a poem by Jack Gilbert, who I quote a lot, who's not related to me. But he's kind of like the sort of angel floating over big magic. He's a poet who I love and admire a lot. And he has this poem he wrote late in life. And he lived this very unconventional life, very much on his. Very much listening to his own calling and refusing fame, refusing family, refusing, like, just going off and doing a lot of stuff by himself that took years, just because he wanted to. And. And when he was really old and living in a shepherd's hut on a rooftop in Greece, he wrote this poem where it's an argument that he's. It's a discussion he's having with God as he's cooking his meal. And the meal is a piece of fish he bought from a fisherman that morning that he walked up the hill and the tomatoes that he grew. And he's just sitting, watching the light change. And God is saying to him, like, why are you like this? Like, why can't you just be normal? Why? Like, you could have had marriages, you could have had families, you could have children. Why do you live alone? You could have lived in one of the great cities in the world. Like, why do you just keep coming and being by yourself like a weirdo, essentially. And the last two lines, as he's, like, got his perfect fish cooked and the tomatoes, and the sun is going down, the Lord says to him, why are you so stubborn? And Jack Gilbert says, I'm not stubborn. I'm just greedy. And he sits and eats his fish alone. And that poem makes so much sense to me. The older I get. Him in my 50s now. And I am so greedy for myself. Solitude. I'm so greedy for my freedom. I'm so greedy for being able to make a plan and say, I'm going away for three weeks and I don't have to run it by anybody. You know, I'm so greedy for, like, just getting up in the middle of night and taking a bath. I don't know. Like, there's the expansion of living alone. I also lived with people for 35 uninterrupted years, pretty much. So it's. It's been almost six years now that I've. I've been like this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Greedy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah, greedy.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Greedy for this beautiful experience of. And I've written three books in that time. Like, my creativity is blossoming and my friendships are richer. And. I don't know, I just. I seem to. I seem to like it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What was the thing in your romantic relationships where you realized when that was not in your life equation, that part of that was you. And you had thought maybe it was the other person.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh. So my thing, and I think this is probably common, is like, whoever's sitting next to me in the position of partner will be blamed or praised, depending on how I'm feeling. So if I'm having a bad day, it's because they suck and are a terrible partner and I need to leave. And if I'm having a great day, it's because they're so supportive and amazing. And if things are going well in my life, it's because they're incredible. And if they're not, it's because they're the worst. And it's. It's just when I took the partner away and still had bad days and great days with nobody to pin it on apart from like, oh, these are just my own moods. And maybe I should take full responsibility and accountability for my own moods rather than projecting it on another life. Got better.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That feels profound. Are you gonna. Will that be in a piece of writing eventually? That idea?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Maybe.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's gotta be.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't know.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, this is working it. We have to talk about what could be worked into writing, and I feel like that has to be. I think that sounds like a great idea for a book. I mean, it's really good. You are doing a substack right now that I'm going to. This is how we started talking about this. You coming on this podcast is. You asked me if I would write a thing you're doing on a substack, which is Letters from Love, that a lot of you've written. Some you've had guest writers come on and write a Letter from Love. Can you talk me through the concept? Because I'm struggling with it, though. I'm going to do it because I'm. Well, because I think it's a beautiful exercise. I think the comedian in me is that you're having a really hard time engaging it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Self love is a really challenging thing for comedians to do. Yeah. And I'm for sincerity. But when it tips into just full self love, it's like, becomes me holding up a you are loved stick. And I want to do it. I want to do my version of it, but can you talk me through where did the idea come from and who's done it best? And where has it felt like, well, this. This could be a little stronger.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Okay. So the backstory for this is that 20 years ago, when I was going through my first, but not last divorce and I was going through the worst depression I've ever been. Like, it was the worst shame, the worst fear, the worst. Like, wow, I've drifted so far away from, like, so lost, so lost. And I had bounced out of that relationship into another one, and that relationship had collapsed, and I was, like, heartbroken from both of them. Like, it was just such a mess. I was in such a mess. And shame was the predominant feeling that I was having, like, dark, poisonous shame. And waking up routinely at like 4 or 5 in the morning and just going after myself with brickbats and knives, you know? And it would be like. It's almost like the shame would catch me. Like, all right, it's 4 in the morning. What's she gonna do? She's pinned to the bed now. We're gonna come after her, right? You know, like the demonic awful. It was brutal. And one of those nights, I don't know what, came to me as inspiration and gave me an assignment. And the assignment was, get out of bed and get a notebook and write a letter to yourself that says, and I was also terribly lonely and heartbroken. So write a letter to yourself that says everything you have always, desperately, desperately wanted somebody to say to you. Like, what is it? That if there was someone here who was incredibly comforting, what would they say? And. And I did it, and it soothed me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And I find it to be a really interesting aspect of the human mind that we're capable of self soothing. Like, even if you. Like, even if you. It's been shown. Like, even if you hold yourself like this and like, tuck your head, your body receives it the same way it receives being held.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Like hugging yourself.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, if you sort of swaddle yourself, like your body, your cortisol will drop. Like, your body's like, oh, someone's here. You know, like, I'm not alone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So that voice did the same thing. And what that voice said was it started with, I'm right here, which is how those letters almost always start for people, not just for me.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I'm right here. I'm with you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So I was essentially calling upon the spirit of unconditional love to be present.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's who the letter's from. The letter's from love itself. Unconditional love.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, capital L love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay. You know, like, which is maybe a higher power of sorts.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. I mean, I don't call it letters from God because I don't want to scare people. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But it could be.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

But it could be. I mean, I don't want to scare, like. And I say that sincerely because people Have. I have great respect for people who don't believe in God. And I also have great. A sense of great care for people who are really harmed by the religions that they grew up in and for whom that word is, like, deeply oppressive. And truly. But love, the idea is, like, what would unconditional love say to you right now in this moment of your life if it could speak to you? And so I started doing it daily. So for almost 20 years, I've done this every day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You do that every day?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, because I kind of can't. I mean, my God, I kind of can't. I don't do well without it. You know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You're telling me you did this today?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, I did this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Look, come on.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I do this every day. I do this every day.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Will you read it? No, I don't want to put you on the spot to read it, but maybe a line or two.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, I'll read. It's gotten to be less. Cause I'm stable now, so it's less. Like, what I heard on that first night was like, we're not going anywhere. It was a we. We've got you. And this was the thing that I heard. You don't need to get better for us to love you. Like, if you never get better, and this is what your life is, and you're always this depressed, we still love you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That gives me shivers.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It gave me shivers.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's beautiful.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And if you. I mean, what literally they said was, if you end up. Because I was also trying to figure out, should I take antidepressants? Should I not? They're like, if you take antidepressants, we love you. If you don't, we love you. Like, we're in. We're in. We were here with you when you got here. We'll be here with you when you leave. And it's so incredible.

[Mike Birbiglia]

They gave you the sticker?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

They gave me the sticker and they gave me the assignment. So, like, actually, I wrote mine today in the. In the. Because I was up early this morning helping a friend go somewhere to a doctor's appointment. So I wrote it in the Uber over here. But I. Dear Love, what would you have me know? And that's the question. What would you have me know?

[Mike Birbiglia]

What would you have me know?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And then you just. Here's the thing. And why it's gonna be hard for you. It's not because you don't necessarily believe or could receive or download unconditional love. It's cause as a performer and the people who have the hardest time doing this are writers and performers who want it to be good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And the people who have the purest and most beautiful ones just ask the question, and then they just write the answer without trying to write the answer right. So it's like, can you get out of the way? And just what would love say to you today in this moment, if it could? So this one was my love. Pause here in this moving vehicle and sense the space around you, within you, above you. Look out the windows and see the space between the leaves on every tree, the space that people leave each other politely on the sidewalk. There is so much more space than clutter and matter. Don't get that messed up or forget it. You've had what you call a busy day, up before dawn to drive a friend to the hospital, then to the city, and then to an Uber. And now to this interview, then back home tonight. But never will a day be so busy that we cannot find you, to speak to you and bring, to remind you and to remember you. No traffic jam so dense that we can't untangle it in a word, reassuring you that you are in the right place at the right time with the right person, even if you're hurtling across a bridge with a stranger, your coffee splashing about, reminding you that something else is always happening here. And that something else is what you might call nothing but what we call the infinite expansion of how much we love you. All of it filled with the rightness of the moment. How could you be anywhere but right where we can find you? How could you be anything but right? You are loved and wanted. You are known. We see you. Enjoy the ride. We're not going anywhere. Love. Love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So let's work on the second draft. How do you write? Like, that's you scribbling in the car.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, I could barely read it. It's like, going on here. But I need this because I'm a high anxiety person and I'm scared all the time. Like, I'm scared a lot. And when I get that message, I'm like, okay. It's okay.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, in some ways, like, what you were reading me is the optimistic, possibly subconscious of yourself speaking to your pessimistic subconscious of yourself or consciousness.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I'll take that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe it is. I don't know, because it's like. It reminds me of this, like, great Ginsburg quote that I think of all the time, which is, observe what's vivid.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, I love that one. Oh, that's so beautiful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I always. But it reminds me of what you're saying. But notice the. The, you know, the space between the leaves and the space between people. And there's just a certain vividness of, like, yeah. The optimistic side of Lizzie Gilbert is looking for the beauty and telling. The pessimistic side. Hey, you should notice this stuff.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah. It's happening right now.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And you're in the right place at the right time with the right person. Like, you're not doing it wrong.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You know, which I can never hear enough. Cause I always think, am I doing this wrong?

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know, I think I can do this as well.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I think you can do it beautifully. And I always tell this story. But this, to me, is the real reason that I'm doing this project, is that when the Dalai Lama came to the US for the first time in the 70s and nobody knew who he was, he had a meeting with some thinkers and artists and psychologists who were like, let's meet this obscure monk and see what's going on. And at that first meeting, this was his first encounter with the west, and somebody asked him what the traditional Tibetan remedy was for self hatred. And the Dalai Lama had to talk to a translator for 15 minutes and kept asking the question again and again because he kept thinking he was misunderstanding the question because he didn't understand the question. He kept saying, like, wait, who do you hate? Who's the enemy that you're having trouble with? Who's the person that you're having a problem with? And they were like, I am the person that I'm having a problem with. I am the person that is abusive to me. Like, I am the. And he was like. And he's looking around the room and everyone's nodding, and he's like, you all have this, you know. And everyone's like, yeah, welcome to America, you know? And when he realized and when everyone was able to explain to him, like, this is something we all struggle with every single day here.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

He was like, well, first of all, this doesn't even make sense. Cause, like, you are the only person you are to be with on this whole journey. Why would you make an enemy out of, like, your only friend?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Like, your being is going to carry you through. Like, that's crazy to turn on that person.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And then he said, I used to think I understood the mind, but I find this very troubling and very concerning. And essentially he's like, well, we'll start with this then when we come to the West. And so he started by teaching, trying to teach people how to be Kind to themselves. And he would say, treatment. He would say, treat yourself the way your mother treated you. And then he found out what people's mothers are like, and he was like, okay, grandmother. He's like, reaching, like, how many. Has anybody ever been nice to anyone here? You know, like, where do you have. Like, has anyone ever been nice to anyone here? Where were you taught kindness and self compassion?

[Mike Birbiglia]

And has anyone ever been nice to anyone here? Is insane.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's crazy, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And the question that I always have is, like, everyone I know and care about wants to practice universal human compassion, but they're awful to themselves. And universal human compassion that doesn't include compassion to yourself is not by definition universal. You know, so. So that was the reason that I started this project on Substack. So anyway, I reached out to you because I love your work and I love your vulnerability and your heart. Like, your heart is so evident. So when I DM'd you, and I was like, hey, would you want to do this thing? And you were like, I don't know. I don't know if that feels like me. And I'm like, it seems so much like you. Like, I was so surprised by that answer because I was like, what about it doesn't seem like you? Because all I see is your heart and your work.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's interesting, because I appreciate that so much. I think it's a struggle for me to get there. I think in the version that makes it out to Netflix, it's there because I'm. I think it's important for my work. I think it's what I think. I think that you in. In some way owe it to the audience to give them, all of you, in a certain way. Like, give. To give, you know, And I think that's part of it. That's part of who. Who you are and what your story is. And so a lot of times it'll take someone in my life, whether it's my director, Ira Glass, or, you know, on this podcast, one time it was Natasha Lyonne, where I was running jokes, and she was like, but what are you. You know, what are you really afraid of? What are you thinking about? I remember that. Yeah. And it was. And she forced me on the spot to tell some really painful stories about death that I think some of them made it into the Old man in the Pool special. And. And so it is. I appreciated you messaging me because I was like, oh, okay. Well, here's someone who sees this thing in me and I should engage with this. Certainly from someone who is so good at what you're doing. So after we messaged, I listened to the audiobook of Eat, Pray, Love, and you. And by the way, couldn't recommend it more highly because you say the words, which I think is so important. It was beautiful. And then last night, since I knew you were coming today, I watched the movie. And then I. And then it's like midnight, and I'm lying next to my wife and she's falling asleep, and I'm watching the movie Eat, Pray, Love, and she sits up from her slumber and goes, I never thought I'd see this day. So good. So good.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, I love it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an honest marriage.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, it's so good. That makes me happy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It must be. I was thinking when I was watching it, that's got to be weird. So weird having Julia Roberts be you. I mean, so surreal.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So surreal. So surreal.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Did you. And also, she gets your mannerisms pretty well, I feel like. Did you feel like she got it from her.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I don't have any object. I don't know. Because that whole, like, I'm the last person you should ask about whether that I don't. Like, I even just start to stammer like, I still haven't processed the existence of that movie.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Fair, fair. Well, it's the. It's the greatest case that life is a simulation.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It's. So I saw that my then husband and I watched it and that they, you know, put us in a movie theater alone, and we watched it before it came out. And the producer sat outside the door waiting for. Probably very nervously for a response. And if not the first line, one of the first lines of the movie is Julia Roberts walking into the medicine man's house in Indonesia. And she says, hi, I'm Liz Gilbert. And I instantly, I was like, what? Like, oh, my God, no, you're Julia Roberts.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so weird.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No one's gonna think you're Liz Gilbert.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No one's gonna think you're Liz Gilbert, everybody.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Mr. Julia Roberts.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You fool. You don't realize people know.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Look at yourself.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The word has gotten out.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're Jilly. Like, you're chill.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The hell?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So wild.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's so strange.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So strange. Can I tell you a quick story?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Of a really sweet thing that happened recently? I was coming into the country from Central America, and as I was in New York at JFK and I was traveling alone, I gave them my passport. And the woman's like, what was the nature of your travels? And I said, just traveling around. And she was a Little suspicious, I think. And she's like, well, what were you doing, you know, for two months in Central America? I was like. I was like, look, talking to people, walking around, looking at things, you know? And she said, what's the nature of your work? And I said, a writer. And she said, what kind of things do you write? And I used to kind of be coy, but now I just lead with it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

So, like, just get over the speed bump. And I just said like, well, I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat, Pray Love. And she goes, you're Eat Pray Love. You're Eat Pray Love. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey. And she starts, like, calling down the line of everybody, like, not the. But the other immigration people. And she's like, this is Eat, Pray Love. This is the woman who wrote. She's like, you did that movie? This woman? And they're all like, whoa. And all these, like, you know, like, customs guys were like, oh, my God. And I'm like, why are they having this reaction? And then she's like, no, you don't know. Every day women are coming back into the country alone. And I say, what were you doing? And they say, I was having my own Eat Pray lamp. Multiple times a day, we hear this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I believe it.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And she's like, I can't believe you're the actual one.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's crazy.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And that was one of the coolest. Like, I was like, oh, we didn't used to have a name for that. It's not that women never traveled alone before you Pray Love. But we didn't have a culturally broad name, a term for, I'm gonna go do this thing by myself for my own benefit, probably. Cause I just went through a breakup or a divorce or I lost a job or something.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

And now there's a word. And everyone understands what that means. It's so. That's so cool.

[Mike Birbiglia]

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[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I can't think of anybody.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Second question. Who are you jealous of that you just thought of but didn't say? This interview is over. Get out of my studio. Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

There is somebody that I was so jealous of for so long. Who? Somebody who I was really in love with, like, never got over. Oh, and I could never be her. Oh, and I was so jealous of her for so long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, interesting.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But you can't say who?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No, I wouldn't want to put them on blast. But I mean, it was excruciating.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You were in love with her, but.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

No, no, no. I was in love with this dude, okay? This was his ex. And, like, I just knew that I could never be what that was. And he was kind enough to remind me of that frequently. And I was young enough to stick around to be like, well, let me try harder to. Let me try harder to be like. More like that.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Somehow that's a useful thing.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, my Lord. You know, that has a happy ending, though, because I love that guy.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because you're. Liz Gilbert has a happy ending also.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

She and I communicated like once about it where I was like. I was like, I'm sorry if I'm always weird around you. I just was so jealous of you for so long. And then we, like, sat down and had the most beautiful, like, heart to heart conversation about it. And now I would call that person a friend.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So is that a cure for jealousy? Speaking with the person?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Maybe.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Maybe for you it was for me.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It definitely was for you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Because I felt like I was really weird. I wanted to like her. She was very. I mean, there was a reason he was into her. She's awesome, you know, But I just. I just said, like, I just felt like I could never, ever, ever compete. And she was like, he made me feel like that too, about other people. And we were like, oh, wait, this is something he did.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, the plot thickens.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Oh, this doesn't actually have anything to do with either one of us. It's just a tactic that somebody used to make us both Feel like garbage. I see. Anyway, I was so jealous of her. I mean, like, physically. It was physically painful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

It was terrible. Awful. I like that. Second question. That's very smart. Very smart.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Somebody who was a friend of mine was in architecture school, and he wanted to work for this firm in Hong Kong, and he saved up all his money and he went to Hong Kong and he went to their offices in the summer between, like, two semesters at school and brought his resume there and said, I want to work for you guys in person. And like, I think he called them, this was before cell phones and email. Like this, like 30 years ago, he called them from the lobby and said, I'd like to work for you. And they were like, send us your resume. And he's like, I'm actually in the lobby. And because I heard that story, I went to the offices of Spin magazine and asked for a job in person. And that's where my journalism career began. Good for you. So it wasn't direct advice, but it was, go, go, go to the place. Like, don't write them a letter. Like, go. They won't forget you. If you're standing in the lobby, you're not a pile of mail.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You're an actual real human being. Right. And that was like, life changing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What's your favorite? Do you have a favorite joke? Joke?

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yeah, but it's. It's dirty.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It doesn't matter. I mean, if that's okay with you.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

You probably know it. The guy who's hunting the bear, and he keeps missing and just nicking the bear. Do you know this one?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Not offhand.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Guys hunting, this is a group. My grandfather told me this when I was eight.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

A man is hunting a bear. While he's hunting in the woods, he sees a bear, he shoots it. He just nicks it in the shoulder. And the bear's so furious that the bear chases him down. Like, I'm not even kidding when I say, my grandfather told me this. Takes the guy's shotgun, breaks it over his knee, pulls the guy's pants down and sodomizes him. The man is so angry that he comes back the next day with a bigger gun. And he hunts the bear down. He can tell it's him because he has a bandage. Hunts him down, hunts him down. And he's like, you violated me. I'm going to punish you. And he shoots him again, Misses, hits the other shoulder. Bear's like, motherfucker. Chases him down, grabs him, breaks the gun in half, bends him over a log, sodomizes him again. Guy comes back the next day with a huge gun. He's like, this is war. Hunts the bear down, tracks him down, shoots him, misses the bear, chases him, grabs the gun, breaks it, pulls his pants down, is about to sodomize him and then just stops. Puts his hand on the guy's shoulder and goes, let's be honest with each other. This isn't really about hunting anymore, is it?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love my favorite part is. You know this one, right? I have not heard that joke. All right, so the last thing we do is working it up for a cause. If there's a non profit that you like to contribute to, we will all contribute. We'll link to them in the show notes and encourage listeners to contribute.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I love the Loveland foundation, founded by Rachel Cargill, and it provides free psychiatric care and therapy for black girls and women.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, fantastic. And she just did the Letters from Love.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Yes, she just did A Letter from Love.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It was fantastic. Yeah, that's wonderful. Okay, we'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. And Lizzy, thanks so much for coming.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Thanks, Mike.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is the best.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

This is the best.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's gonna do it. For another episode of Working it out, you can follow Elizabeth Gilbert on Instagram at elizabethgilbertwriter. You can get her book Big Magic and all of her books at your local independent bookstore. And check out Elizabeth substack@elizabeth gilbert.substack.com the full video of this episode is on our YouTube channel. This is my Mike Birbiglia YouTube channel. You get all of the body language. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbigli and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer, Gary Simon. Sound mix by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer, Kate Belinski. Special thanks to Jack and Off and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Special thanks to my daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you are enjoying this show, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. We have over 4,000 user reviews. It's really exciting for us. We have over 150 episodes that are all free. No paywall.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

Come on.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's all free. We've had Lin Manuel Miranda and Jim Gaffigan and Maria Bamford, Check out our back catalog and comment which is your favorite. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Let's say you're visiting your 96 year old buff grandfather and you accidentally encounter him when he's tending to the fire naked. In order to break the tension, why not say something like grandpa, here's a podcast I enjoy. It's called Mike Birbigli's Working It Out. But put some clothes on first. That way we can all enjoy it together. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.