← Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out
Mike Answers Your Questions About Creativity and Discusses The Emmys
00:41:04
This week Mike answers listener questions. Does improv help your stand-up? What was your most nightmarish stand-up set? How do you convince yourself to keep going when it’s not going well? Plus, Mike reads a piece he wrote about his complicated but ultimately rewarding experience at the Emmys.
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- [00:07]
Mike Birbiglia
Welcome back to Working It Out. This is Mike Birbiglia. We are doing a very special thing this week. We're doing a audience Q and A with you. I'm answering your questions. We have had a bunch of phenomenal guests lately. If you haven't caught the podcast lately, we had Jack Antonoff, Mateo Lane, John Laster, Zach Braff, Aisling Bee, Hannah Berner, Steven Merchant. The list goes on and on. We've just had a great, great run of guests and they are all in full on YouTube. The YouTube channel is at Mike Birbiglia. And yeah, and I said this a few weeks ago, but I was going to talk about my experience at the Emmys today. I've never gone to the Emmys. I went to the Emmys. I wrote a whole reflective piece about it that I sent out to my mailing list. I send out. If you don't get the mailing list, if you don't sign up on breadbreaks.com you should sign up. It's very infrequent. I send out maybe one a month, so probably 10 or 12 a year. And I'll usually sort of reflect on the tour or the process or, you know, where I am in terms of my headspace and my creative output and how it's all going. And so I talked in the last email about, about the Emmys and going to the Emmys, which is a very strange and unique experience. So we're going to answer a few questions and then we're going to circle back to that, answer a few more questions, and then that's going to be the episode today. It's a, it's a short episode in between two phenomenal guests on the podcast. So the first question comes from Annalisa Ray, and the question is, what do you think sets apart a good comedian from a great one? Annalisa, that is a great question. Not a good one. It is something I think about often and I think it's obviously, look, it's subjective. Nobody can tell you who's better than anyone else at anything. I think comes down to preference. I can tell you what I prefer to watch. I prefer to watch comedians who are working sort of from their gut. If you listen to the Pete Holmes, any of the Pete Holmes episodes, he's been on three times. We often talk about, like, telling your secrets on stage, you know, revealing to an audience, something that you kind of dread telling people. And I think Pete does that really, really well. I, you know, I feel I like my favorite comic to watch is probably like Maria Bamford. Whenever. I don't know if she's telling secrets per se, but whenever I'm watching her, I just feel like what she's saying is so alive. And I feel like I'm inside the conversations that she's having with her family members or friends. And even if. Even, by the way, if it isn't. Even if people are working from a place of complete and total fiction, but it feels real. Like sometimes you're watching someone, it just feels so real, you can taste it. And I don't know, I just love that. Like, that, to me, that's. And then that usually in terms of, like, going back to Annalise's question, what do you think sets a good community from great community? I think sometimes you see that with someone who's been doing comedy maybe like a couple of years, and you're like, oh, this is pretty good. You know, like there's something from the gut. But then sometimes you see someone who's been doing like 10 years or 15 years, 20 years, and they're really. They've really come into their own in terms of the craftsmanship of, like, just being comfortable on stage and being like, super, super relaxed on stage. And I find that when the performer's relaxed, the audience is relaxed. Like, we've all been in the audience watching a standup comedian feel uncomfortable, and that makes us all feel uncomfortable, and I hate it so much. It's like my least favorite thing to watch in the world is when a comedian is uncomfortable, which I feel terrible because I've been that comedian also. So no judgment to those comedians because I've been that person and sometimes I still am. Who knows? So for me, it's the collision often of experience with speaking from your gut. Like, another person who has that is Tig Notaro, who's on the podcast recently also is just. I love watching her because I just feel like I'm watching something that's very, very alive. And so that's. To me, yeah, that's good versus great. Okay, the next question is from Roman. Jd What, Where. When was your worst stand up set and what did you learn from it? They're still happening. Ongoing all the time? No, not that often. I'm trying to think of the worst. Worst, worst. Okay, here's one that was pretty bad. When I was first starting out, I was asked to perform, I don't know, maybe it was like maybe $50 to perform to open for somebody at this place called Fat Tuesdays in Virginia. And it was like a, you know, one night a week Comedy show. It wasn't a comedy club. Like, it was just one of those, like, bars where one night a week they have comedy. And it was like, kind of my first, like, paid gig in anything. And I was very nervous. Cause I was supposed to perform, let's say, 30 minutes of comedy. And I. In my mind, I was like, oh, I probably have, like, 15 minutes of comedy. So I'm 15 short, so I'm going to have to stretch. And then I was just about to go on, and I was backstage. By backstage, I mean, I was on the sidewalk. It was a strip mall. There was no backstage. It was the sidewalk of a strip mall with the other comedian. And they open the door and they go, mike, you're on. And I. And I turn around and I throw up on the sidewalk. And then. And then I, like, wiped off my face. And then I walked on stage and I performed, like, four minutes of comedy. And then I was like, thank you. And then I brought on the headliner. And the owner of the club asked me to come into his office afterwards. And I was like. I was like, thinking, like, the guy's going to yell at me. He's going to take out a gun. You know, Like, I was thinking, like, this is going to go badly. This is going to be really bad. And I go in, and he takes out $50 in cash, and he hands it to me and he goes, great job. But he didn't even really notice, somehow. And I drove home. This is in college. I was in my college girlfriend Maggie's car that I'd borrowed. And I drove back to our apartment we were living at. And I was like, I'm a comedian. I am a comedian. Like, this is crazy. I've been paid to do standup comedy. And I went home to Maggie, who was sometimes in Sleepwalk with me. I'll use a fake name for her, Abby. But I went home to her, and she said, how did it go? And I was like, it was amazing. Because in my mind, it had been. And if it hadn't, I never would have done standup comedy again. But which actually speaks to another question on here, which is John H. Wagner says, how did you convince yourself, quote, it's going quite nicely and keep going early on. It's actually. That's in reference to that same story. Because that. That story. That's a story that I told years and years and years ago on Sleepwalk With Me Live. That's like, my first solo show where I talk about, like, this idea that, like, I think to be a comedian Starting out, you have to be delusional. Like, at least a little bit delusional. Like, you have to convince yourself it's going well when it's not going well, because otherwise you just wouldn't get on stage again. You would just. You would just think, like, I guess human beings don't like me. And so you have to just be like, you know, just bomb and bomb and be like, I think that this is going quite nicely. And so John Wagner's question is, how do you convince yourself it's going quite nicely and keep going early on? I think it's some degree of I'm broken. I mean, look, some people, you know, some people push back on this. Like, I've heard Seinfeld, whom I respect greatly, say in interviews before, like, comedians aren't broken. Everyone's broken. It just so happens comedians, this is what they do for their job or whatever. I get it. You know, his point is, like, everyone's broken. Like every profession, if you dig deep enough, people are broken. There's something about comedians, like, I've never met a comedian who's great, who doesn't have some bit of, like, what's going on there? What you got going on there? It just always seems like there's. There's a lot going on. And this is a compliment. This is the highest compliment that I could have for people. Is a little something going on? Yeah. I mean, and the other thing about it is, is that, I don't know, it's almost akin to, like. Like, sports or something, where. Not that I have any authority talking about sports, but, like, if you are out playing tennis and you just started, you're not gonna be that great at tennis. Right. But if it's fun for you or you feel like it could be fun in the future, you know, you do have to start somewhere. And the other thing about trying something or convincing yourself it's going well is, like, if you don't do it, if you don't do the open mic spot, or you don't do the spot on your friend's show or whatever. The thing is, it's like, well, someone else will. And the other person might also not have had it figured out yet. And they're figuring it out. So it's like it's either them figuring it out or you figuring it out. And it's like, you know, that concept of, like, you know, people. A lot of times people succeed if they have that kind of, like, why not me? Energy about them.
- [10:37]
Unknown Guest
It's like, give yourself a little of.
- [10:39]
Mike Birbiglia
The why not me. Energy. Because if you don't, someone else will. And yeah, it's, you know, if, if, if what's holding you back is fear, then that's actually, I don't accept that. And the reason I don't accept it is because the worst case scenario is it's just embarrassing. Like, if you, like in other words, if you do stand up and it doesn't go well with the audience, it's really just embarrassing.
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Unknown Guest
Right?
- [11:09]
Mike Birbiglia
It doesn't really matter. You're not physically impaired by it. You're not, you know, it doesn't really affect the rest of your life. If it goes okay, maybe you learn something. If it doesn't go okay, maybe you learn something. So if it's fear that's holding you back, I think you got to just keep going. If it's. Maybe you're not. This isn't what you're meant to do. Maybe you don't think you're second guessing. Maybe you're not funny. Maybe this isn't. Maybe humor isn't your intended path. Then that's, that's all. That's a whole other ball of wax. Okay, Steve Keel. I think that's how you pronounce it. K E I L says, do you ever get nervous before a show? I actually do. Often. I would describe it as. Is that how they say it these days? Often. I weirdly get more nervous now than I used to and I think I'm definitively a better comedian now than I used to be. So I don't know what the takeaway is there, but I think it's pretty true. I think part of it is, you know, like last weekend, for example, I was performing in, you know, the current in San Francisco. It's like 2,000 seat theater at the Fox in Oakland. I'm at the Moore in Seattle. And, you know, it's just these big beautiful theaters, thousand 2000c theaters. And I do have a sense of responsibility that I need to bring it to the audience. Like, I need to make sure that I give all of myself to all of those people. And I think that actually is physically different than when I was starting out doing like open mics for 20 people. Like, I think giving yourself to 20 people is hard. Giving yourself to like 2,000 people is like, it is a bit of a herculean task. And it's. And it actually physically manifests in my body. Like, it's like it's a strain sometimes, which is a little bit embarrassing to admit to you here on this podcast. But we're getting Very. Getting very personal today, which segues perfectly into my. In my email about the Emmys. Okay, so into the Emmys. And I wanted to write something to the email list about this experience because I was like, it's such a unique experience. I've been doing comedy like 25 longer, 27 years, and I've never been nominated for an Emmy. And then all of a sudden this happens and then other things happen, which was a surprising twist in this whole game. So I'm going to read you. This is the email I wrote last week. I had a strange thing happen this year in my comedy bubble. I had never been nominated for an Emmy and I never complained about it other than for about 15 minutes every few years after they would announce the nominees, then I would forget about it and deal with actual challenges like life. So that was the status quo. And then this year I did get nominated, except bizarrely, I got nominated in a category with two different great comedians whose shows I had helped produce, Alex Edelman and Jacqueline Novak. So that was odd but good, but odd but good. Imagine saying odd and good 40 more times in an increasingly higher pitch. Overnight, my career became the plot of my own film, Don't Think Twice, where a bunch of friends compete for the same thing and one of them gets it. So we all did these very show busy photo shoots that you can see on my Instagram and Emmy magazine previews and wore uncomfortable suits to try to win what felt like the election for seventh grade student council. I dressed up in a tux, which I don't think I've done since my senior prom when my date slept with her boyfriend at the after party, which I still support and rarely think about. The point is, I went to the Emmys and my friend Alex Edelman won for his beautiful special just for us. And fortunately, my wife Jenny didn't go home with her ex boyfriend. Here was the upshot of the whole thing. So many people at the event came up to me and thanked me for making the old man in the pool, which meant so much to me. But then a ton of people said nice things to me about this podcast working it out podcast. A woman came up to me and goes, I tell my friends, I tell my enemies, I know about the radio fort made of pillows. And it made me laugh so hard. It was an unexpected turn because I went into this whole thing hoping I would win. But I ended up being comfortable losing because I was face to face with all of these people who are members of this little podcast cult I created by accident almost five years ago, a cult of people who, like me, are obsessed with process more than results. It felt so cool. One of the goals when I'm writing my specials and movies is for the ending to be surprising yet inevitable, which is something I find so satisfying to watch and when I can pull it off, perform. I think the reason that structure is so satisfying as an artistic ending is that life often creates that same parabolic structure, except it takes a little while. You do one thing, it leads to a different thing. And then often you land on a third thing that you couldn't possibly have predicted during the first thing. Sometimes the third thing is sad, but more often it's unexpectedly bittersweet. In a movie or a Show, it takes 90 minutes, but in life it might take roughly five years. I ran into the actor, director, producer Mark Duplass at the afterparty. He and I knew each other from a movie called you'd Sister's Sister years ago. And he came up to me, he goes, hello, loser. And I said, good evening, loser. He had lost in his category. Also. He's an actor on a show called the Morning Show. And he said to me, he goes, I love your podcast. And I said, that means the world to me. Will you come on the podcast when you're in New York? And he said, I'm in New York tomorrow. And I said, let's do it. So we're recording that soon. We've got a bunch of cool episodes coming up. We recently had Zach Braff, we have Lynn Miranda. Coming up, we have Hannah Gadsby. Meanwhile, I'm on tour with my all new comedy hour, which is called Please Stop the Ride, that is currently trending towards a new name, which is called the Good Life. I'll be in Philadelphia this week, then Wisconsin, Madison, Tennessee and more. And I hope to see you. In the meantime, please tell your friends and tell your enemies we're working it out. That was the email I sent out last week after the Emmys. And it actually, thematically, of course, ties into a lot of the questions today, which I really enjoy. There's definitely a running theme in all of this. And yeah, there is. And there is a new. There's two. Two projects I should. I should point out there's two projects that I'm working on right now, and one of them is the tour which is called Please Stop the Ride, and it's going to be called the Good Life. And we're about to make an announcement about that in New York City for it's going to be in March. That's All I can tell you, and it's coming very soon. So again, if you're not on the mailing list, join the mailing list and we'll probably talk about it on the podcast again in a couple weeks. So that's called the Good Life. And then I'm writing my next movie. My first movie, Sleepwalk With Me, came out in 2012. My second movie, Don't Think Twice, came out in 2016. This is an interesting, interesting sort of like data point for creatives out there. I wrote another movie. So I'm writing a movie right now that I'm going to try to shoot, try to film at the end of 2025. And I wrote before this another movie. I literally spent like three or four years on it. And I have just kind of put it on the shelf because I, gosh, I get a lot of questions about this, this kind of thing. One is, do people ever steal from you? Yes, absolutely. The other is, what do you. What do you do when you see something that's too similar to what you've done? And I don't have it happen that often, but actually, the last movie that I was writing, there was a movie that came out that was just. It wasn't the same, but there was like. I don't know, I would describe it as like 20 minutes of. It was so close that I think I would have to reconceptualize that 20 minutes and therein kind of the whole thing to a certain degree. So I just put that on hold. I was inspired to write another movie. That's what I'm writing right now, I should say. I've been writing it for a couple of years and. And it's going to be hopefully in 2025. It'll come out in 2026, which is wild to think about it because it means It'll be 10 years since my last movie came out, Don't Think Twice. Which is absolutely absurd for me to think about because it feels like doing that movie with Keegan Michael Key and Gillian Jacobs and Chris Gether and Tammy Zager and Kate Mikuchi just felt like it was just yesterday. I mean, it's just absurd. And so anyway, I'm really excited about making another movie. So I'm gonna go to the next question. Who is your favorite comic to watch live? Well, I mentioned Maria Bamford. I met the comedy seller a lot, and I'm often back to back with. There's two comics from back to back with a lot who are great to watch. One is Ethan Simmons Patterson the other is Colin Quinn. Those are two people who I think are great. Another one is Jessica Curson. She's there a lot, too. She's fantastic. Rachel Feinstein, who's been on the podcast. I mean, those are some of the comics who I watch, who I just go, this is the thing I was talking about earlier. It's like, I love watching people when they're so authentically themself and. Yeah, and when he's working on new jokes, Chris Rock will come in. And I love, love, love watching Chris Rock. I just think he is probably the. I was going to say the best comedian, but it's very subjective because I also. I think Maria Bamford is in that camp, too. I also love watching Take. I mentioned that earlier. Next question from Gabe Degarmo. What's something that makes you successful at comedy that most people wouldn't know? I don't know. You tell me. What makes you successful? I don't know because I feel like I'm a little bit of an open book. I think it's persistence. I think anyone who knows me knows that I have this ridiculous, almost cartoonish sense of persistence about things. There was a bully in high school who, first of all, he used to bully me with. He called me the Math Jockey. And I actually had a joke about this on one of my first albums where I go. Which is sad because I wasn't even good at math. I just looked like I was good at math, which means I wasn't the sex jockey. But anyway, he called me the Math Jockey. And then he would do an impression of me, which was. And there's a physical act out, but it's me walking at a brisk pace, at a forward leaning 45 degree angle. Just imagine a person walking at a brisk pace at a forward, almost impossible, 45 degree angle forward. And that is a metaphor for my comedy career. I try too hard. I'm out there on the road. I'm out in Seattle and Portland and Minneapolis and Madison, Milwaukee. I'm just out there doing new jokes every. Oh, that's the other thing. Every night I'm doing new jokes. When you see me live, there's new stuff in the show, or I reconfigured the show or I reordered the show. Like, that's what's exciting about the live shows. Whenever you see me live, it is a living document. It is a snapshot in time you are seeing. You know, I always say this when I'm touring, I go, like, you'll, you know, you might see this on Netflix In a year or a couple years or three years, and it will not be the same. And the reason why is it's always changing. And to be honest with you, like a lot of my close friends have said to me over the years, like, oh, my God, the show I saw, the live show I saw, I wish that was the special. And I'm like, I know what you mean. But I'm also like, it's a living, breathing thing, and it's somewhat out of my hands. I'm always trying to make it better and better and better. And for some people, their favorite version might be the 211th show. And for another person, it might be the 450th performance. And for me, it's the 600th performance. And everyone has their own take on that. So to answer your question, what do you think is. What's the secret to success that you have that people wouldn't know? I think it's persistence. I think the other thing is just honestly listening to points of view that feel acidic to my ears on first listen. I try to. I try to take in all kinds of movies, all kinds of art, all kinds of comedy, all kinds of music. I try to be open to things that I don't like necessarily. It's like one of the best pieces of advice that someone gave me once, which is, when a bunch of people love something. This is. My professor in college said this, John Glavin, my screenwriting professor. He goes, when a bunch of people love something, when something is a cultural phenomenon artistically, and you hate it, you can't stand it. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but it might be interesting to investigate and try to understand why that thing that the person is doing or that group of people are doing appeals to people. Because it's just an interesting inquiry. And I think, like, over the years, I've just. I feel like I've done that a lot in my own comedy, and I feel like I'd like to think it's evolved and kind of gotten better.
- [25:43]
Unknown Guest
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- [26:13]
Mike Birbiglia
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- [26:14]
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- [27:00]
Mike Birbiglia
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- [27:21]
Unknown Guest
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- [27:25]
Mike Birbiglia
Lately I've been using the weighted blanket quite a bit and so nice for the winter.
- [27:30]
Unknown Guest
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- [28:01]
Mike Birbiglia
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- [29:00]
Mike Birbiglia
A couple more we're going to wrap it up. Ringer Nathan says have you ever felt your comedy writing skills go dull or experienced exhaustion? I think so, yeah. I mean, it's funny, like in the Jack Antonoff episode, which, if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen. So it's a really fun one. We kind of talk about this idea. The way he puts it is every songwriter has a fear that they're. They're. The song they're writing is the last song they'll ever write. I think jokes are the same. I think it's like you have this feeling like, oh, no, have I lost it? You know, this crowd doesn't like me. Does everyone not like me? Like, does every crowd not like me? From now on, a common phrase, the comedian says, you're only as good as your last show. Which is not a lot of fun for girlfriends and boyfriends and husbands and wives of comedians. But therein lies the life of any kind of artist who's, you know, putting a lot of, you know, emphasis and passion into what they're doing. They're going to feel bad when it's not clicking the way that they wish it did. Maybe I should try to get specific on your answer. Ringer Nathan, have you ever felt your comedy writing skills go dull or experience exhaustion? Yeah, and I will say, like, I think that maybe an antidote for that, because it sounds like maybe you've had that before. So you're asking maybe, is there an antidote for that? What I find is I try to take out my earbuds. This is like a trick I feel like I've developed over the years. I try to, like, not listen to music, not listen to podcasts, not, you know, like, just take in the sensory of existence. Go for a walk, go for a hike, go for a drive, take the subway, just take in the sounds and the observations of the world. Because it's like everything that you're doing comedically is really just a personal reflection back of what you're living and experiencing. It's just, it's just you're taking in stimuli from, from the earth, which is really interesting, really unpredictable and really funny and really sad. It's like all those things all the time. And I find if sometimes you open yourself up to Just the sensory of existence versus, like, the music and movies and TV and kind of produced things. A lot of times you're. You're not able to make your own observations. You're actually just consuming someone else's observations. I think sometimes, not always. Sometimes that's great. Sometimes the best thing you could do is read a book and it inspires you to write down. You know, when I was writing my second book, the new one as a book, I was reading tons of Mary Carr, like, just, like, because she has all these personal essays and. And David Sedaris. I just read tons of Mary Carr, tons of David, and it would. It would make me think of all my own stories for my life and a lot of just vivid memories. And so sometimes that is great, but sometimes it's just the sensory of the world, because the world is wild. Hannah K. Film asks, does standup help your improv, or does improv help your standup? Absolutely. I recently did improv for the first time in, like, Sense Don't Think Twice. So, like, eight years, or saying with the guys from Please Don't Destroy and Kira O'Sullivan and Chloe Trost. And we did it at Improv Asylum in New York, and it was short notice. I just put in my Instagram stories and I think they did, too. And it was small. It was like 130 people in the audience, and we had such a blast. I think the audience did, too. I mean, like, we just laughed so hard, and it was funny. I actually, you know, if you go back to the episode with Liz Allen, it's all about improv. Liz Allen was the. I think this came out in May, the episode with Liz Allen, all about teaching improv and coaching improv and doing improv. Liz was my improv coach in college from. She was from Improv Olympics. She was in a group called Frank Booth. And then years later, I asked her if she would coach our kind of fake improv group in Don't Think Twice, the movie. So we had a bunch of weeks of rehearsal and even shows. And so anyway, I called Liz Allen when I was doing improv with the guys from Please Don't Destroy. And I was like, what is your advice for someone who hasn't done improv in a long time? And she said this thing that I just think is, like, so great, and it's a great reminder for me just in my own process. She goes, you know, you make a lot of artistic products, and you got to remember that improv isn't about products. It's about process and relishing. The process and enjoying the process. And it's that act of kind of being in the moment and enjoying process that is going to make the improv feel alive. And she was so right. I relay that to everybody and I think that was helpful. I'd like to think it was. Everybody kind of put in their two cents about improv. Some of us more experienced than others. I mean, I'm one of the lesser experienced improvisers in that group. I just honestly just do it for fun. But, yeah. Does it affect my standup? Absolutely. It brings an element of spontaneity into my standup. I think it brings in an element of surrealism into my standup. I mean, I think improv and standup are actually really, really similar to one another. Like, there's a certain structure to an improv scene which is like setting up a world with characters and then essentially something happens that's maybe a little bit awry. And then the ensemble on stage kind of follows through on the pattern of that thing that went awry. And it's kind of a what if. Of what if the thing that was a little bit awry was the pattern. And that's sort of the basis of essentially every improv scene. And really, in a certain way, every comedy movie, like, it's a series of scenes that have a causality to them. But really every scene in a certain sense is like kind of, what if it's like the Broadway play? Like the play that goes wrong? It's like, it's like, what if this went wrong? What if this was a mess and standup is kind of that too. It's like standup is basically a series of premises. A premise in a structure of a joke is just something that we all kind of accept is true. Like, oh, okay, maybe it's about my relationship with my dad. And you go, oh, okay, your dad has a hot temper. Okay, I accept that to be true if this XYZ punchline and the punchline essentially is the turn of it. So I see improv as being kind of in the in real time version of what a single person is doing in standup. So I actually think there's like a lot in common. So I think improv actually does help your stand up. And I recommend, by the way, I recommend improv to anybody, like, anybody who has a creative impulse. Try an improv. Try improv. Try an improv class. I mean, Liz Allen, who I mentioned from that podcast, she does zoom improv classes that like, I've recommended to, like, four different friends who've actually done them with her and created like, zoom improv groups online that get coached by her and they love it. The people who I recommended love it. So I highly recommend it. If you're able to do improv or even not at an improv school or whatever, just get a book at Truth in Comedy. Get the UCB handbook on improv. Like there's. Get Liz Allen's book, like, there's tons of great books on improv where you could try out with a cast of your own choosing. Okay. And finally, Max underscore, I guess nine writes, what is your favorite step in the filmmaking process? And what is your favorite pizza place? Oh, actually, I should point out, Maddie Bumpo asked Favorite sandwich, which I passed over somehow. Favorite sandwich. I'm going to actually say, because I'm going to Ann Arbor in Detroit. I'm going to say Zingerman's. Zingerman's. If you haven't had a Zingerman sandwich in Ann Arbor, you don't know what you're missing. I mean, it is phenomenal. And also, by the way, I think they ship too, because I feel like, like someone gifted me a Zingerman sandwich once and it was just pure joy. Favorite pizza place. I mean, look, everything, every. This is what they don't tell you. They try to tell you there's three great places for pizza in New York City. They'll say, you got to go Lucali, you got to go to Grimaldi's. You got to go the Lutza, Whatever, John's. The truth is, I'm going to get really serious here. There's no jokes, very serious about pizza. The water is great in New York City for pizza. I don't, I don't know why. It just is. It's also great in Connecticut, in New Haven, where, yeah, in New Haven, it's great. Is why there's a whole row of pizzerias in New Haven that has great pizza. Because the, for whatever reason, the water's great there. The water's great here. I'm not saying every slice of pizza in New York City is great, but I will say, like, if you're on Yelp and you go to the, the, the top rated 25 pizzerias in New York City, I think you're going to get a great pizza. That's a strong take, but I feel pretty strongly about that. And I know I'm going to get a lot of letters, but that's a risk that I have to take. To answer your question, Max, favorite step in the filmmaking process, I think it is somewhere in the universe of, I think, production. I think filming something with your friends is one of the most fun things you can do. I think it's actually dangerously fun to a point of, like, sometimes I feel like people make bad movies because they just love making movies and the script isn't there and they're just like. They kind of know it deep down. So you'll see a great filmmaker make a movie that's like, how come that person made that movie? That's not right. And the truth is, like, I think sometimes people convince themselves that the movie's ready when it's not ready, which is why I bake my scripts for years and years and why I haven't made my next movie. When my next movie comes out, it's going to be 10 years, because I bake it a lot. And I have to say, there's just a big difference in terms of barrier of entry with filmmaking and standup. I mean, stand up literally is the art form of one person talking to a group of two or more people and making those people laugh. If you have two people, that's an audience. That is a very inexpensive art form. You don't even need a microphone. That's the whole art form. Movies are just expensive to make. I mean, technology is unbelievable. It's easier to make a movie and less expensive to make a movie now than it was 10 years ago and way, way less expensive than 20 years ago and bizarrely, less expensive than 40 years ago. So Barry of entry is pretty low. But it's like, you know, you're still going, oh, my God, you could make a movie for $40 million. Or you can make a movie for $10,000. Yeah, but also, it's $10,000. That's a lot of money. So it's not like it's free. Like, there's no version of it where it's. So other than if you're making it with, you know, a $300 phone or something like that. But I will say the barrier of entry is absurdly lower than it was decades ago. And so I think, look, you know, I. Kevin Smith, who's made a zillion indie films, I saw say this in an interview recently. I thought this was wise. He goes, I'm paraphrasing. He's like, you know, the movie industry is in shambles. Everything's a mess. What better time to make a movie? It's like, if the. If the big shots are messing up everything with all the money, then you can sneak in and make something and try to make something inexpensively and you might make a big splash with it. It's definitely. You have a shot in this climate. So to answer your question, Max, I guess nine favorite step is production and writing. I like writing. I love production. Editing is just so hard and I. It's like a. It's like a Night of the Dark Soul where you're just like. You're just like, oh, my God, we don't have the movie. We don't have the movie. We don't have the movie. And that feeling is so painful for me that it's hard. But I also, yeah, I'm very lucky. I've been. I've worked with some incredible editors over the years. I worked with on both of my movies. Sub Walk With Man Don't Think Twice. I worked with Jeffrey Richmond, who now edits Severance with Ben Stiller, which is brilliant. And. And he did Escape from Denimura. He said a whole bunch of stuff. He's just absolutely brilliant. And he did. He actually did one of my. One of my specials too. He did the new one special. But what I love about standup is that the process of it is. It's real time feedback, which I think is really, really cool because you can try to get up on stage the next night and do it a little bit better. All right, that's all for me today, folks, with answering questions. If you have more questions, you can send them to Working It Out Pod at gmail com. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, we're working it out. We'll see you next time. We don't have to stop making jokes.