B (3:21)

I don't know everybody, but I did the. The Conan, you know, needs a friend podcast, which I. And the. The whole notion of friendship and. Or a best friend.

A (3:33)

Yeah.

B (3:34)

I find interesting because I think, you know, I mean, I always think my best friend is Devlin, my husband. Yeah. But. But that, you know, when I was a kid, you know, having a best friend.

A (3:47)

Yeah.

B (3:47)

I don't think I ever had a best friend. And then one time I thought I had a best friend, and I found out I really wasn't. It was somebody else.

A (3:56)

Oh, right.

B (3:57)

Yeah. I thought I had gotten the part, and then they told me that. No, they went another way. So it's interesting. The best friend.

A (4:05)

Yeah.

B (4:05)

Who's your. Who's your. Like. Matthew Broderick's best friend is the playwright Kenny Lonergan.

A (4:13)

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

B (4:14)

You know, from childhood.

A (4:16)

Yeah.

B (4:17)

And that. I sort of slightly envy that, you know, that. That kind of.

A (4:21)

I envy it, too. I think adult friendship is so complex. Even you and I have been friends since 2008, which is many, many years ago, and I feel like I. This is nothing.

B (4:34)

I was planning to say you don't know me at all.

A (4:36)

No, no, I feel like I do know you. I feel like I can call you, which is a thing that you extend to yourself in that way that you. It makes it feel like, oh, I could always call you if I was in a jammer. In trouble. But I think the gray area of friendship as a grownup is when should you call someone versus, like, can you call.

B (4:57)

Well, you've fallen and you can't get up.

A (4:59)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (5:00)

Well, that's.

A (5:01)

That's the only instance I can think of for sure that you can, you

B (5:05)

know, if you want to talk through something or.

A (5:07)

Yeah.

B (5:08)

Or just check in, you know, and tell someone. You know, tell someone you love them.

A (5:13)

Yeah. Do I call you enough?

B (5:16)

No.

A (5:17)

Should I call more often?

B (5:18)

Well, I don't want to. Don't be a pest.

A (5:21)

Okay.

B (5:21)

But. No, I'm kidding. We. You know, you're a busy guy. I'm occasionally busy, so.

A (5:30)

So you're not occasionally busy.

B (5:31)

So you're always busy.

A (5:33)

You work. You work more than any actor.

B (5:36)

I know that's not true, but everything. No. Who did I just see? Oh, yeah, I was watching John Lithgow. I saw him and I went, this guy is an. He's in everything. But no, I'm always happy. No, I'm always happy to hear from someone you care about and love and want to. It's. No, no, I don't, I don't think. I'm not. I'm not. You know, I don't have a clicker going. He hasn't. You know, he only called me three times this month.

A (6:03)

Right.

B (6:04)

If he started calling me a lot, I'd be worried. I think something. Something's gone horribly wrong.

A (6:11)

Right, right, right.

B (6:11)

He's calling me for advice.

A (6:14)

You were at SNL 50. You performed in John Mulaney's musical.

B (6:20)

Yes.

A (6:20)

Which was hilarious. Were you? So you see a lot of people there. You see probably a lot of friends.

B (6:27)

Some. But yeah. The most intimidating room I have ever been in Outrageous. And I've been to the Oscars and big events, but this was something.

A (6:38)

Did it stress you out?

B (6:39)

Sure. Look, I'm getting stressed. Just the memory of it. I was going as a guest because

A (6:47)

you've hosted the show.

B (6:48)

I hosted 20 years 1997. I was hot for 20 minutes and I was asked to host. I'm a member of the One Timers Club, which. Which. And I gotta say, there's more of us than the five Timers. So we could have a rally and maybe. Maybe go to.

A (7:07)

Maybe win the popular votes.

B (7:09)

Go to number two. It came up. Look, it was an incredible two days of the rehearsing of it. It was only the kindness of John Mulaney saying, I'd like Nathan to be in the sketch and do this little cameo. And so I was like, oh, well, it'll be nerve wracking. But you know how I was so honored to be asked and what an historic night that will be. And so I, you know, but just. It was like I said to somebody, it was like, you know, walking into the television and seeing all these people from past and present casts and just. And all of the other famous people over there and just being able to say how much you've loved them and what they've done and how they've made you laugh or however they've touched you. And. Yeah, it was astonishing.

A (8:10)

Is there anyone you get intimidated by in a room?

B (8:12)

Everybody. I'm very starstruck and I'm very, very. Can't believe this.

A (8:18)

No one's buying.

B (8:19)

Nervous.

A (8:20)

No one's buying it.

B (8:21)

Well, it's shocking you when you meet somebody like Leslie Jones. I've always wanted to meet Leslie Jones. I think she's hilarious. She just kills me. And there she was. She was standing there, and I finally. I had seen her, like, at the rehearsal, but I get too nervous. And then there she was. And I said, oh, I just. I have to say how much I love you. And she went crazy. You know, I wouldn't think I would be on Leslie Jones's list radar. And yet I would, but go ahead. She was totally. It was just. It was such a pleasure, you know, And Lady Gaga were walking out, Devlin and I. And Lady Gaga turned to me and said, oh, I love you. And I was like, oh, my God, it's Lady Gaga. I don't.

A (9:07)

That's wild.

B (9:07)

I love you, too. It was a lot of that. Yeah. An unforgettable couple of days, and I was just thrilled to be a small part of it.

A (9:17)

You say that you get intimidated by people, but I just don't believe it.

B (9:21)

Somehow.

A (9:22)

I feel like it strains credibility.

B (9:24)

I don't know. It's something. It goes back to my mother. It's like, you know, some. I'm not worthy. I don't know. I don't belong here, and they're gonna find me out. Kind of, you know, sad thing. There is vestiges of it. You know, you try to deal with those feelings, but it's intimidating.

A (9:45)

Did your mom see you get successful?

B (9:49)

Yes, she did. Sure.

A (9:50)

Was that satisfying?

B (9:53)

Yeah. I mean, you know, with her, you know, she was bipolar.

A (9:57)

Yeah.

B (9:58)

And so the notion of trying to make her happy, she had not had a happy life.

A (10:04)

Yeah.

B (10:05)

And so in those later years, just wanting, you know, saying, what can I do for you? How can I. Yeah. You know, trying to make her life better or. And there was very little you could do that would do that, because essentially, all she really ever wanted was for all of us to be together, living together.

A (10:27)

Yeah, sure.

B (10:28)

You know, the whole. You know, me and my two brothers, that's really all she wanted. And, you know, it was that thing. I remember seeing this in a Jules Pfeiffer play, Grownups, where you would be there, and she would say, when am I gonna see you again? And you would go, I'm here. Look. You know, I'm here right now. You're seeing me now.

A (10:46)

I relate to that so much. That's my D. And that's it all. It's. You visit, and then you're leaving. And he said, we should spend time together sometime. No, this is. We're here, this is what we're doing.

B (10:58)

Right. And. And yeah, you know, I have a. I have a. There's a memory of me leaving one time, being visiting her and. And she just. She grabbed my hand and she squeezed it and she said, I hate to see you go.

A (11:17)

That's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (11:21)

You know, and. But yeah, I mean, I think that my success was very meaningful for her and she was very proud of that. And.

A (11:33)

Yeah, she saw you become Nathan Lane from Jolaine.

B (11:38)

That's right.

A (11:39)

Did she like that?

B (11:41)

Well, when she would call me Nathan, it was like there were quotation marks around it. Nathan.

A (11:48)

Nathan.

B (11:49)

But most of the time she called me Joe.

A (11:51)

And you did it for Actor's Equity, basically, because there already was a Joll.

B (11:56)

Yeah, a Jollane. I remember years later they Actors Equity contacted me to say, you could have the name now. And I said, well, it's. It's a little late for me to go from. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not Prince. Yeah, yeah, I got the man formally known as Nathan Lane now Joe. So, no, it wasn't a good career move, but yeah, no, there was already a Joseph Lane.

A (12:26)

Did you think of. Was it spur the moment when you were signing up for Actors Equity that you came up with Nathan or were you thinking about it for a bit?

B (12:34)

No, I went, you know, to join. I was eligible to join. And then that's when they told me and it was sort of like it was a slap in the face, I couldn't be Joseph Lane. And I guess I looked stricken and the woman said, it's okay, take your time, you think about it. Come back. And I said, you know, but I said, no, no, just give me a couple of minutes. And I went and I sat down and it's only because I had done. I had been, you know, working in non equity theater and I'd done a lot of shows and plays and musicals and I had played at age 19, I played Benjamin Franklin in 1776 in summer stock. And then I had played Nathan Detroit in a dinner theater production of Guys and Dolls. And I said, I'll either be Benjamin or Nathan Lane. And then I thought Nathan Lane had a better rhythm. And I went over and said, I'll be Nathan Lane.

A (13:40)

Does it feel. Does it feel like you now?

B (13:43)

Yes, it does. It does, Jolaine. Feels like a long time ago.

A (13:48)

Yeah.

B (13:49)

But believe me, Nathan had lots of problems too. Was it like. That was some. The magical ice cream Suit. Now that I'm Nathan Lane, the magical ice cream suit.

A (14:05)

Oh, gosh. So one of the things that I like that you did, you did two movies that were far out, that I loved in the same year. Beau was Afraid and Dick's the Musical.

B (14:19)

It doesn't get more far out than that.

A (14:21)

They're both so far out. Two of my favorite movies in a long time, and you're fantastic in both of them.

B (14:28)

Oh, thank you.

A (14:30)

And I. I feel like, you know, it says a lot, I think about now.

B (14:38)

There was a New York Times piece of this guy who was the nicest guy, very indebted to him. Kyle Buchanan wrote this piece, you know what, because of those two films. Oh, yeah. And the title said, hollywood finally figures out what to do with Nathan Lane.

A (14:54)

Oh, that's interesting.

B (14:55)

And I just like to say, not really, but it was fun for a minute.

A (15:02)

It's interesting, though, because it's like. Because there's very few actors, period, where you go, I'll see whatever they do. I feel like it's almost like a bygone era. And I feel like you have that. I think you have an unbelievable talent, not just for being a tremendous actor, but choosing projects that are pretty far out. I mean, how do you.

B (15:29)

It's not like I get a lot of choices, you know, that came up again.

A (15:35)

This is strange.

B (15:36)

Beau Is Afraid came up. And I knew the name Ari Aster I had not seen. At that point. I had not seen Hereditary or Midsoma. How do they pronounce? Midsommar?

A (15:49)

Midsomar.

B (15:50)

Yeah, Midsommar. I hadn't seen them, but I knew that he had been acclaimed and that he was, you know, this, you know, new talent that people were talking about. And. And so I. So I did watch the films, and, you know, they were incredible. And then, you know, I was. I sent this script, and. And, you know, I'm reading it, and I'm thinking, oh, he must have been on mushrooms when he wrote this or something. You know, this is, you know, crazy.

A (16:23)

Oh, yeah.

B (16:23)

And. But the original. Originally, it was like a fake title, but it was called Disappointment Boulevard.

A (16:31)

I like that.

B (16:32)

And so I said to my agents, well, this is. I. You know, it's hard to make sense of this, and. But, you know, he's. You know, I'm happy, you know, to talk to him. And. And he. He had written me this beautiful note and said, this is. Oh, my God, you know, you're my first choice for this point. And I. You know, so. And I knew Joaquin Phoenix was doing it, and I. You know, he's. I think he's one of our greatest actors in film. So, you know, we had a great talk, and then I said, yeah, sure. You know, it was. And it was just, you know, kind of figuring out the tone of that, and that was interesting to be, you know, beginning that, shooting that stuff and finding our way. And. And.

A (17:23)

And I remember you came back because I saw you after you filmed it, and you basically, like, it's very strange movie. We'll see how it goes, how it comes out. Yeah, but you loved Joaquin.

B (17:36)

Oh, I loved Joaquin. I loved him, you know, and I was. Ari. I loved. Working with Joaquin is just. He would. I remember at one point, Ari just said to me, he's not gonna say the lines that are there, so just. Your objective is to keep him in your house and just say whatever you need to get him to stay in your. In your house. And he said, and if you can work in a couple of lines that I wrote, that would be great.

A (18:05)

Oh, that's amazing.

B (18:06)

And I said, sure, I could do that.

A (18:09)

Is he like, oh, okay. That's why I think people find him challenging sometimes to work with Joaquin. Is that he, like, you're saying, doesn't necessarily take a lot.

B (18:19)

We shot the first day with him, myself, and Amy Ryan, who's a very old friend of mine.

A (18:24)

Oh, yeah.

B (18:25)

A brilliant actress who I. This was the first time we finally got to work together playing husband and wife. So that was. That felt great. And. But the first. We shot for three hours in this, you know, our teenage daughter's bedroom and with stuffed animals and boy band posters, you know, and Joaquin was like, you know, and this. This is the setup for our characters. Yeah, but he's playing the truth of. I've just. I've been in an accident, and I'm. And he's like Olivia de Havilland encaged. And so we shot for three hours, and I thought, well, we could barely. But we could barely get our lines in.

A (19:06)

Yeah.

B (19:06)

So. And I. And then I thought, I don't know about that. And then. So I texted Ari. It was at lunchtime. I texted her, and I said, hey, it's your movie. You can do whatever you want. But, you know, when I read this, it seemed to be darkly funny. And this is the introduction to our characters, and I couldn't get any of the lines. And so I said, you know, that's all I'm gonna say, but, you know, whatever you want to do. So he texted me back, and he said, no, I don't think that went well, and Joaquin is not happy either. And I said, okay. And then we went back. So Joaquin Phoenix, I don't know him. I just. You know, I just admired. I've admired him from afar. So we sit and we're talking. And we're talking, you know, now. And we. Now. Three hours out the window, right?

A (20:06)

Nothing.

B (20:06)

Now we're back.

A (20:07)

Footage that you're probably not gonna use.

B (20:09)

Yeah. So now we're back, and we're talking about the scene. And I finally said, look, Joaquin, we don't know each other, but. And I don't know how to break this to you, but I think this is supposed to be funny. I said. I said, listen, you know, we're coming out of 45 minutes of you in the Kafkaesque opening. That's horrifying. And I said, and everyone should think now you're safe in suburbia with these nice people, but it's. Something's a little off, right? And it. And, you know, as written. You know what. What I think what Ari wrote is funny. And you're speaking in kind of like he was speaking. You know, the lines were written. It was like baby talk. Because he's so. We've so heavily medicated him, right? What? This leg here. What? You know, it was like that.

A (21:01)

Yeah.

B (21:03)

So I said, listen, you should. So I tried to give him a bit of business. I said, you know, take one of those stuffed animals and put it on you. And then when you have to make that weird noise, you know, I said, just pull it out and stare at it.

A (21:16)

Oh, my God.

B (21:18)

So he started to laugh.

A (21:20)

Yeah.

B (21:20)

He said, oh, I can't do that. I said, so why not? You want an Oscar? Just put your mind to it. So he started laughing and laughing. Laugh. So. And then we were, like, home free. Then everybody loosened up, and we started to play the scene. And then he said to me, I can't look you in the eye or I'm gonna laugh. He said, every. Cause I. Then once they. Once they saw you as funny, they put the camera on me. I was, you know, improvising and just saying things to see what reaction I would get.

A (21:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (21:51)

But he was a delight. And he was, you know, he's passionate and committed. And, you know, as Ari would say, he. You know, he. He can only be truthful. And. And if it doesn't feel real to him, he can't do it. And. And he was. No, He's a remarkable actor and a. A total sweetheart and totally not. You know, he's not pretentious. It's about the work. And it's not. I'm not some big movie star who's, you know, won the Academy Award. It's just, how do we make sense of this? And so I. So I just. I just loved that experience. And, you know, it was only. It was very brief, so. But I had a great time.

A (22:37)

That is. That's a great example of that. Movies. I feel like a lot of times, you know, you see the director of a movie when an Oscar or the writer or this or that, and they go, no, no, it was. Everybody in that. It really is a very hard thing to describe to people. Even. Like, your story about Beau's afraid, I think, encapsulates that is, like, you're an actor, you've worked for so long, and you've done a million things, and you're like, hey, just gonna throw in my two cents.

B (23:08)

Well, I just thought we weren't. I was sort of reminding Ari that this is what you wrote.

A (23:17)

Yeah, yeah.

B (23:18)

You know, and we're not. We're going. I don't know where we're going, but it's not. And what you wrote is. Is really good, and it's funny in this very dark way, and we shouldn't be afraid of that.

A (23:32)

Do you remember other films or plays over the years where you did that, where you're in it and you have to remind the principals, like, hey, we were gonna do this, and we should probably do that.

B (23:47)

It doesn't. Well, that doesn't happen often. You know, I can remember this is the only first thing that came to mind when you said that there was this in the birdcage. The word fag was used a couple of times, and sometimes it was, like, directly from the old French play. Oh, right. Yeah. It was a punchline. And there was this. And I had to say, you know, alexander the Great was a fag. And I. You know, and I kept. And I finally went to Mike Nichols and said, you know, this makes me a little uncomfortable. Comfortable, you know, and it just. There's other ways of saying this.

A (24:31)

Certainly. Yeah.

B (24:32)

And. And. And he was like, you know. Yes. He said. And. And so, you know, and I gave him examples of what it could be and, you know, another way of saying that. And. And he said. And. And I said, you know, it's, you know, and as the only fag in the real fag in the scene. Yeah, I. I would rather not say fag.

A (25:01)

Sure.

B (25:03)

And he said, I understand. And then he said, you know, but I. This was a job that was like. I was Just thrilled to be asked to this part.

A (25:12)

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

B (25:13)

You know, and so I. And he's Mike Nichols.

A (25:15)

He's Mike Nicholson. It's a huge break.

B (25:17)

He's like, yes.

A (25:18)

Yeah.

B (25:18)

He's like, God, this is in the 90s. So. And he said, but, dear boy, could you just do one Dear boy as written? Oh, my God. As written? And I was like, oh, sure.

A (25:28)

Of course.

B (25:29)

That's what's in the movie. Oh, my God. You know, it was weird. He wouldn't let. You know. Mike Nichols and Elaine made two of the most sophisticated, most brilliant minds ever. And yet I always felt like. Because they came from another generation where that word was a punchline.

A (25:48)

Yeah.

B (25:48)

And it was allowed and it was okay. And for some reason. Reason, he wouldn't let go of it, or he wouldn't let Robin refer to me as his husband. I was referred to as his wife. He wouldn't let him call me my partner. Or. And maybe it was that the notion of, I want this to be a big mainstream hit, and I don't want to offend anybody, but, you know, you think, then we're making the. It's 1995 or 6. Whenever we met 95, we were making it. You know, it's. It's a. This is a game. This is a gay story. You know, when I saw it as a kid, when I had first moved to New York in the late 70s, it was. That movie was playing on the Upper east side for over a year. It was the most successful foreign film at the time. And, yeah, I remember seeing it. I thought it was hilarious. And. And. And I just thought, oh, it's so subversive. It's a French farce. But, you know, the gay people are the heroes, right, in this. And so, yeah, I mean, look, I. I'm telling this story, but, you know, I have to say that it was, you know, it was a tremendous experience. And they. Mike and Elaine were. Were incredibly kind to me. And. But it was a weird. It was a stumbling point that I just. I was like, why is. Why are they hanging on to this.

A (27:13)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (27:14)

This word.

A (27:14)

Yeah. That's hard.

B (27:16)

Is it because they come from another generation? And. I don't know, it was awkward for a moment, and then, you know. But in an otherwise great, very happy, joyous experience, I asked Elaine.

A (27:32)

I met Elaine May recently, and I said to her, just briefly, and I said, I've read in books over the years about you and Mike Nichols that you. That he would stick to his lines when you did the Broadway two person show and that you would just make it different every night. She goes, don't believe anything anyone writes unless they were there. Do you feel like anything people have written about you over the years is not quite right or people get you wrong ever?

B (28:05)

All the time.

A (28:06)

In what way?

B (28:07)

I've read interviews where literally I didn't say any of it. Where they obviously thought I can write something better than what he said on my tape recording. True. I mean, literally like a paragraph that I did not think.

A (28:24)

I mean, that's outrageous.

B (28:26)

People characterize you. You know, I think because there have been times when I'm like, I am. I know it's at my age when I'm near death and I'm still shy. Shy. It doesn't hold up well in my age range. But you know, people could take that as being standoffish or like, what's his deal? You know, I know I just totally. Or just things attributed to me that I didn't say or do.

A (28:56)

What was attributed that you didn't say? Do you remember?

B (28:58)

I don't know. You have to.

A (29:00)

You have to look up and find somebody.

B (29:02)

Let me bring in my lawyer. I know Stuart, get in here. He has all the files.

A (29:22)

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B (31:51)

You know, they're the best ones usually don't say much. Not that I, and I like direction. I like, you know, hearing thoughts about what's happening.

A (32:08)

Yeah.

B (32:10)

You know, it's a bit of being a father figure, a therapist. And you know, the director is for each person it's a little different however they work and what it is they're doing. But it's, you know, it's sort of the Clint Eastwood notion is he's cast you for a reason. He's not here to teach you how to act or how to play a scene. He assumes you've done your homework. It's a big assumption because not everyone does their homework. But it's an assumption that you're a professional. You're gonna show up on time and know your material and have a point of view about it. And then only if he feels you've gone off on the wrong path. Will he say something? Yeah, it really depends. I mean, I like, I don't. You know, some people don't. They don't want to hear notes or any of that.

A (33:07)

Right.

B (33:08)

You know, they just want to. And they don't want to even rehearse. And in film I kind of get that they want to. Let's see what happens.

A (33:14)

Right.

B (33:15)

We're all looking for that happy accident that's real and was unexpected. That's what you're trying to capture on film.

A (33:23)

I'm guessing you had that to some extent with Robin Williams on Birdcage because Robin seems like he didn't. He didn't stick to a script that often.

B (33:33)

Well, no, no, he was. Robin was very professional. And. But what we would. We rehearsed. And then Mike had said to us, just, you know. You know, feel free to improvise while we're rehearsing.

A (33:47)

Yeah.

B (33:47)

And then, even though he was very protective of Elaine's script, he would usually say he would give us, you know, a free take, you know, to get it out of our system. And out of that, things came. Yeah, for sure. Little moments and. No, Robin was. I mean, if. You know, he liked that, if he did go somewhere, I would go with him.

A (34:14)

Yeah.

B (34:15)

You know, and we would. You know, and we were kindred spirits in that way. We were both sort of like needy children who just wanted to please Daddy. And he was. But he was, you know, Robin, you know, he made it a very happy atmosphere and joyous and kept people's energy up and entertained in between takes, you know, and he was so, you know, kind and generous and loving and, you know, I can remember doing. I had to. It was a. There was a musical number that was eventually cut, but I did a number in the club. And so he had the day off. And I remember he came in and I said, what are you doing here? I'm just doing this all day. And he said. He said, I want to be here for you. I want to support you. Oh, he. You know, he was. You know, he was just an incredible person, and I'm lucky that I got to work with him.

A (35:11)

Yeah. Yeah. We say. But I. I only met Robin a few times, but when we. We did that Wounded warriors benefit of the Beacon, he would. All of these soldiers who had been injured and had these severe injuries, he would go around and he would be the Robin Williams.

B (35:28)

That's right.

A (35:29)

That people dreamed of meeting.

B (35:31)

That's right.

A (35:31)

Which, of course, in show business, you never really get that from anybody because they're performing on camera or on stage, and then they're human beings. But he was the Robin Williams from the movies. For people.

B (35:44)

Yes. He would do that for you, for people who needed it or, you know, he knew that was part of his job and. But, yeah, I also just remember quiet moments with him, and he was a very. Such a sensitive soul. So dear and, you know. And easily hurt.

A (36:04)

Yeah.

B (36:04)

You know, and just, you know, incredible. And we always sort of. I can't say that we became close friends. We would keep in touch and. But we always had that bond of having done that film. And it was, you know, it Became. It was a success and it was just a very fond memory for, I think, for everyone involved.

A (36:25)

So you did Beau is Afraid and Dick's the Musical in the same year? Yeah, Jenny and I went to Dick's the Musical. We were going through a lot of personal stuff at the time that was really challenging with our families. And we went to the theater and saw Dick's musical. And I. I don't remember laughing as hard at a movie in the theater as I did at that movie. And I. It was such a gift of a movie. It is so insane.

B (36:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is insane.

A (36:55)

And the guys who made the movie, I mean, you really took a chance on them because they hadn't, to my knowledge, made a feature film.

B (37:03)

Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson came from ucb.

A (37:06)

Yeah, they came from ucb and they.

B (37:08)

And, and. And there was a whole, you know, sort of gay contingent of ucb. You know, Bowen, Yang, Matt Rogers.

A (37:17)

Yeah.

B (37:17)

Was. Julio Torres was. He was just doing stand up, but

A (37:21)

he might have been in the scene. I don't know.

B (37:22)

Yeah, but no, it was sent. And I was like, well, I can't do this, you know, because your character,

A (37:33)

just to give context, your character, I want to say, eats ham.

B (37:38)

No, this. He has these creatures. He has these pets that are called the sewer boys that he obviously found in the sewer. And he keeps them in a cage in his living room and they eat deli meat and they're these strange. They're like, you know, they have tails and they're these odd sort of little dragon like urchin.

A (38:04)

Right.

B (38:04)

They're creepy. They're very creepy. But he loves them and he feeds they like deli meat and he feeds. So you have to. And he would feed them like bird baby, like a mother bird. And so you would. I would have to chew up the deli meat and spit it into their mouths. That's what. That was. The much talked about scene. Any. Yeah, So I was like, I don't know about this. And then they said Larry Charles was going to direct it. Yeah, and I loved Larry Charles and so I had a zoom with him. And then I said, look, I was still sort of on the fence and I said, I need to meet these two young guys and just talk about this. And so we had this dinner that went on for like four hours and several cosmopolitans later I said, well, I guess we're making a movie. Well, they were like, you know, the gay sons I never had. And they're brilliant guys. They're really smart and really funny and, you know, as they always. I think it was. Aaron always said, you know, we're not making this for people to upset people. We're not making it for people who won't like it. We're making it for the people who. Who will like it. Right.

A (39:25)

Oh, that's an interesting way.

B (39:26)

Want. This is kind of outrageous. And, you know, and they look, I admire the audaciousness of this and especially. Well, even more so now, but at the time it was just, you know, when books are being banned and, you know, you don't say this, don't say gay. Don't do that. And I just thought. And they don't care.

A (39:53)

Well, they clearly don't.

B (39:54)

They just don't care is a line. And interestingly, as it.

A (39:58)

Because it goes. I don't want to give away where

B (40:00)

the story goes, but connecting back to the word fag or faggot. Yeah, those folks are. You know, that was used in that movie. Bowen Yang played God.

A (40:13)

That's right.

B (40:14)

And they all sang a song called. We All Sang. I should include myself. We all sang a song. I had nothing to do with it. I was not. I was not involved at all. I was nowhere to be seen. We all sang. It's so called All Love Is Love. This is when the twins decide the only person. You know, they realize they love each other even more profoundly and spoiler alert. And they get married and they all sing a song called. God sings a song called All Love Is Love. And at the end he says, you know, God is saying, I'm everything. I'm black, I'm white, I'm this. I'm. I'm rich, I'm poor, you know, and I. I'm gay. I'm straight. And they said, you're gay. God is gay. So they. So in the lyrics, as it goes, don't you want to see the movie now? In the lyrics, we'll turn this into a cult film. Yet they. They sing, all love is love. All love is love. God is a faggot and all love is love.

A (41:10)

Yes.

B (41:11)

So they're sort of reclaiming the word faggot, Right. And, you know, and I was, you know, and so I was like, oh, that's Cause that word has always made me uncomfortable. But having been called it. So I sort of got what they were doing and I kind of. Then. And by the fifth time they sang God is a Faggot, I started laughing. That's what it took.

A (41:36)

It took five times.

B (41:38)

Sometimes it's just repetition that can do it. Anyway, I think they're brilliant and Original. And I just thought, sure, I want to be a part of this.

A (41:50)

What do you. It's like when you do Angels in America, which is, you know, one of the greatest American plays. It's sort of an epic play. And then you do Dick's the Musical, which is this completely irreverent, wild film, you know, Beau is afraid. Very experimental. Like, what do you. What do you see as the through line as an actor in all of those things? Is there a through line of being an actor in all those things?

B (42:19)

Well, the through line is you're, you know, you. You are trying to be truthful with it, so, you know, you're looking for the, you know, the humanity in it or the, you know, the. The heart of it. At times, you know, I think there's, you know, it depends on what it is you're doing, you know, and Beau is afraid. It was just. I liked that he was this suburban dad who, you know, said things like, why did he keep calling him my brother? You know, who thought he was being hip? Or he was sort of this corny dad. And yet there's a moment in it that I really liked when I'm trying to get Joaquin to say something, and you see, there's something much darker at play. Just for a second. You see that when you look for those kinds of. With a character like that, you're looking for that moment, the darkness and the light when you're in that. Or the humor in the sadness or

A (43:29)

tragedy when you're in that scene where you say you see a glimpse of the darkness of the character.

B (43:35)

Do you.

A (43:35)

Will you say to the director, hey,

B (43:39)

I'm catching my glimpse of darkness.

A (43:41)

Will you catch that in this one?

B (43:44)

No, no, you just. I just dropped someone of the caliber of Ari Aster. Well, someone's going to catch who's actually. Who's written it, right? Knows. Knows that. That that's what's happening. Might be happening.

A (43:55)

You ever ask for another take for that, though?

B (43:57)

I'll. I'll do as many. I love doing a lot of tapes. Do you ever ask something.

A (44:02)

Can I have another.

B (44:03)

You know, it's like they always talk about De Niro is like. Not that I'm comparing myself to him, but.

A (44:07)

They heard the comparison.

B (44:08)

Yeah, but it was in there. Yeah. Oh, Bobby and I go way back, so. But there was, you know, he, like, uses takes to. To warm up, so. He'll do a lot. He'll do. He likes to do a lot, apparently. You know, I. I've never done a film with him, but

A (44:27)

I Think they're talking about Meet the Fockers four. So there might be a role in that.

B (44:30)

It might be. Finally. Okay, I'm game just to say I worked with him. Yeah. I think you, you know, there are people who, like, this is it. They got two, you know, like, I don't know, I can remember interviews or Morgan Freeman saying, you know, if you need more than two takes, then something's wrong. Or, you know, and I think, oh, I don't know about that. I see. But I come from the theater, I like to rehearse.

A (45:00)

Right.

B (45:00)

And so there's that part of me. But I understand from a film point of view, it's like this is it. It's this is. And then you peek about, maybe take three and. But I. I don't know, it can. Then there's David Fincher who likes to do 57.

A (45:17)

I know. Bomback. Yeah. Yes.

B (45:18)

You know that it goes on and on. Well, you think you're losing your mind. And you know, you know, it's the old Billy Wilder saying to Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon, you know, because Marilyn Monroe, it would just to get one take where she said the right thing or did the right line or whatever it was he wanted. He said to them, you have to be great in every take because whenever she gets it right, that's the one I'm going to use.

A (45:47)

That is.

B (45:48)

That's a lot of pressure.

A (45:49)

That's a lot of pressure.

B (45:51)

Yeah. Be funny.

A (46:04)

Support for working it out comes from Pesty. Pesty is do it yourself Pest control. Oh, man. If you listen to the show, you know that I've tangled with bugs before. I've had ants in the kitchen. Come on. You know that my wife Jen and I texting each other about the ants. You know that joke? I may have to retire that story soon because I got the Pesi Smart pest plan. Wow. Well done, Pesty. This is a special kit that includes everything you need to take care of your pest problem. The kit includes pro grade pesticide, the same stuff that the pros use, a sprayer, a mixing bag, gloves, and instructions you can complete in minutes. With pesti, you can get started at the 35 bucks per treatment with a customized plan based on your location, bugs and climate just have to say like that's. That's a lot less than I've. I've paid for my treatments, but not anymore. Now I got pesty bugs. Hate to see you come in with Pesti. Go to pesi.com WIO for an extra 10% off your order. Wow. That's a good deal. P-E-S-T-I-E.com W I O for an extra 10% off, they created a company to deal with my jokes about bugs. Working it out is supported by Rula. Let's talk about therapy for a second. We talk about therapy all the time on this show. I've talked about it with Gary Goleman with Sarah Sherman. That was a good episode where we talk about therapy. I've been in therapy. I know firsthand. Sometimes navigating mental health care can be challenging. Here's the thing about Rula. Rula helps to make that part easier. Rula works with major insurance plans. Sessions can cost as little as $15 and in some cases $0, depending on what your benefits are. Rula isn't just a directory. They help book appointments. They stay on top of your schedule and keep track of progress so you actually can get somewhere with therapy. Whether it's therapy or medication management, Rula makes it simple to get the full scope of care you need. No time wasted navigating between platforms or offices. Thousands of people have already used Rula to finally get the care they needed. Go to rula.com burbigs and get started today. That's R U L A.com burbigs Take the first step. Get connected. Take control of your mental health. Support for working it out comes from Article. Article offers a curated range of mid century modern, coastal and Scandinavian inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with nearly any other Article product. I love this Article furniture. They have a thoughtful design approach that makes it incredibly easy to mix and match, helping you create a space that feels cohesive as well as stylish. I feel like if you went on the Article website you could spend hours there. I was on the site and I got this little bookcase and a little rug. They all sort of have a nice matching color palette. With Article's 30 day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. The peace of mind ensures that you can invest in your home without hesitation. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim that, visit article.comwio for working it out and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com wio for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. This is. This is called the Slow Round. Who is someone you're jealous of.

B (49:49)

Well, that's not fair to ask someone in show business that. Well, let me get out my list. Who am I jealous of? You know, I, I'm not, I was a little jealous when I heard Lithgow was gonna, they've asked him to play Dumbledore in, in the Harry Potter series for hbo. I thought, yeah, that's a good gig. That's gonna go for a while. No matter what. Even if it stinks, it's gonna go. No, I, I, you know, I'm at a point now I feel like I'm, and people seem to have been concerned over the years about my happiness, but I'm, I'm sort of, people have written articles about it anyway. I certainly the happiest I've ever been in my, in my personal life and in my professional life. And I'm just very, I feel very lucky. And the follow up question is, who

A (51:00)

are you jealous of that you thought of when I asked the question but didn't say.

B (51:11)

No, I, you know, I'm, I can't. I, honestly, Devlin could probably tell you. He's probably heard me say, I'll ask Devlin, mention a name. But, you know, it's like I don't really have that. Yeah, I mean, there's a part of me that would like, I'm very happy where I am and what I've achieved, but there is a part of me that I wouldn't mind if I had got to have a little more of a career in film. So, I don't know, there's this sort of, I think there's this sort of general feeling of me being this, you know, whatever. General feeling is a general feeling that it's like, it's, you know, it's why they, in film that it's, you know, you're gonna play, you know, somebody's agent, you know, get him, you know, it's that or there's a, it has to do with some notion of me because I, I've had a, also a career in musical theater that I'm, there's, it's big, it's mermanesque, it's whatever, whatever you want to call it. And you know that. I think I've shifted that perception.

A (52:22)

Yeah, you've completely shifted because you've played

B (52:25)

over the last decade or so.

A (52:26)

The roles you've played in the last two decades is unbelievable.

B (52:29)

I could give you evidence, your honor. I could show you that there is a range, but I think people want to categorize you. They want to put you.

A (52:40)

Of course they do.

B (52:41)

In A box. And they don't want you to get out of the box, of course. But I was able to dig a hole in the corner of the box, and I got out.

A (52:48)

Oh, I know. No, I saw.

B (52:49)

Now I'm in another box down the street. Well. Well, that's. I'm still trying to figure that out.

A (52:59)

Has your life gone the way you expected it to?

B (53:05)

Oh, better.

A (53:08)

Better.

B (53:09)

Yeah. Things like, you know, you. I have so many things that I, I, you know, you was more than you could have hoped for. Just, You know. But there was this strange. I also had this strange. For all of the fear, I had this strange thing as a kid that I saw it as. I somehow knew it was gonna work out.

A (53:34)

Yeah.

B (53:35)

This strange. There's also this part of me, this strange. I don't know if it's even confidence, but just sort of like I could see it like a movie, and I would say to myself, well, this is. Now I'm in the beginning of the movie, and it's, you know, and I'm a starving actor in New York.

A (53:54)

Sure.

B (53:54)

You know, I don't have any money, and I'm. I was once so hungry, I stole a. Like a grapefruit from. I went. Walked by a Korean market and just. I had no food, and I stole it like a grapefruit. And I'm not even particularly fond of grapefruits. I guess it was just. It was in reach, you know, Anybody always thought, yeah, it's gonna work out.

A (54:20)

Yeah.

B (54:20)

Somehow I just know it. It's gonna work out. I don't know why I had that feeling, but I did. Yeah. And then it. And then I, I. I lucked out and it's. It worked out. What's the best. The name of this show. Working it Out. Yeah. What's.

A (54:36)

What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used to.

B (54:40)

The Elaine Mays line is the safest thing you can do is take a. Take a risk.

A (54:46)

Yeah. You know, I think that's great.

B (54:49)

You know, just.

A (54:50)

The safest thing you can do is take a risk.

B (54:53)

Yeah.

A (54:53)

I love that. All right, so I'm gonna work out a couple of jokes that are. I'm doing my performances at the Beacon Theater in a couple weeks.

B (55:08)

In a couple weeks?

A (55:09)

Yeah. Oh. So I. Well, at the last minute.

B (55:11)

Should I come?

A (55:12)

Oh, my God. I'd be honored. I'd be honored if you came. I. Of course. If people don't know this. Nathan presented my first show off Broadway, Sleepwalk with Me. And I believe I view it as the inflection point of my entire life and career.

B (55:28)

Oh, well, look, it's all you. I just went along for the ride. I vividly remember us standing outside when I was living in Tribeca. I think we had had dinner, and you were, like. You were a little annoyed by the fact that Meryl Streep was presenting.

A (55:50)

That's right.

B (55:51)

Someone bridging tunnel.

A (55:52)

Yeah, yeah.

B (55:53)

Off Broadway.

A (55:53)

Yeah. Sarah Jones's show. Solo show.

B (55:55)

How did she get Meryl Streep? How'd she get Meryl Streep to present? And then we. You know, and then you said. You looked at me and it was like, oh, it was like a marriage proposal. And you said, would you present me? And I went, well? I said, well, yeah, well, what is it? How much is it gonna cost? Is that. You said, nothing? I said, oh, sure, I'll present the hell out of you.

A (56:19)

Your version of my voice is like, I'm a hustler.

B (56:23)

Which then. And the next thing I knew, I was presenting you.

A (56:31)

Actually.

B (56:31)

If I'd known it was gonna be such a big hit, I would have put money into it.

A (56:35)

Yeah. But it was. I really do think of it as, like, a singular inflection point in my entire life.

B (56:42)

Well, it was just a great show is what it was. And it was your performance of it. And do you remember when we did the View together?

A (56:50)

Oh, I remember it.

B (56:52)

And Joy Behar kept referring to you as Mike Birbiglia, which fell somewhere between, like, you sounded like a celebrity chef or Italian porn star. Mike. And she kept saying. I would say, no, it's Birbiglia. She said, no, it should be Berbelia. Oh, God, yeah. Yeah.

A (57:12)

Oh, I remember that so well. It was a huge moment for me because my mom got to come, and my. And my mom loves the View. Watches the View every day.

B (57:22)

Sure.

A (57:23)

And so she was in the audience, and it was. And. And. And Joy came over and talked to her, and she loves Joy. It's her favorite comedian.

B (57:31)

Sure.

A (57:32)

And.

B (57:33)

And.

A (57:34)

And. And Joy said to my mom, what do you think about your son being a comedian? And she goes. She goes, I don't know. I don't know what I think about it. She goes, joey goes, oh, he's really good at it. And it was oddly, it was a turning point in my relationship with my mom and her understanding of my comedy career. It was like a permission slip from Joy Behar to my mom saying it was okay for me to be a comedian.

B (58:02)

Wow. Joy Behar. Yeah. Had that kind of power.

A (58:07)

Yeah.

B (58:07)

Wow. Well, that's Something. Yes. No, look, I was proud to be associated with it. It was such a great show. And. And then you, you know, it was a book, it was a board game. It was. Then you made a movie. Made a movie. And then you did it in Claymation. It was. It's unbelievable how much mileage you got out of Sleepwalk.

A (58:29)

Well, here's what I'll say about

B (58:32)

your

A (58:33)

wisdom in general about a lot of my projects over the years is when I made it into a film, you read the script and you said a thing that stuck with me and I brought up during the production and in the edit over and over again. Which is. Which is you basically said, the risk of turning this into a movie is that it starts to feel like a boilerplate independent film, quote unquote, of this really special, singular show. And you said, you have to take the singularity from the show and figure out how to have it live in the film. And we did it eventually, but it was very, very hard.

B (59:11)

But I.

A (59:11)

But we brought that up over and over and over again, citing you. And I think it's true. Of all things, I actually think about that in everything I do is you can. I think the inclination sometimes goes to. The thing you were saying about advice of Elaine May is the, you know, the safest thing you can do is take a risk. It's the same. Same idea. Which is you shouldn't do what. What you're in your mind is the. The independent film of the thing. You do what's sort of in your gut.

B (59:42)

Right. Or do something that's going to scare you.

A (59:44)

Do something that's going to scare you.

B (59:46)

That, you know, it's like, I don't know if I can do that, but that's always a good feeling.

A (59:52)

This is from. I just got back from Una's winter break the other night. We're on vacation in Florida and Jem was like, let's go out with Una and swim in the pool. And it was 8 o' clock at night, it was dark. And we go out and Oona's swimming underwater and it's a magical moment. And then she swims into the pool wall and scrapes her head and she's okay, she's fine. But the first thing I thought was, I'm so glad it was Jen's idea to go in the pool. Cause if it were my. If it were my. If it were my idea, we'd be talking about this for 20 to 30 years. Since it's her idea, it's like, the thing's gonna heal and we'll never talk about it again.

B (60:34)

Oh, that's funny. Yeah.

A (60:36)

So I just happened this week and I just jotted it down in my notebook.

B (60:41)

Yeah, That's good.

A (60:47)

I just feel like. Yeah, it's. And then I, I, and then I, I wrote this. Oh, I, this is something I want to try to get on stage, which is so many of my friends have gotten divorced lately, which has been really hard on me. Because when people get divorced, then you have to go back into your own wife and husband and overcompensate and be like, jim's getting divorced. Which is what I would never do because I am resolute and firm in my conviction to be married. I would never be divorced. Like Jim, who is a villain. We shall never speak of Jim again. This is a really half baked idea. Whenever our friends get divorced, we do a divorce autopsy. Like, they got divorced because they couldn't agree on what, what it was they were arguing about. And we're not like that. Right. Come on, team. Yeah. It's half baked. It's half baked. It's just definitely like a free association.

B (61:37)

What do you think when people talk about we have a, like an open relation or an open marriage?

A (61:41)

What do I think when people say that?

B (61:42)

Yeah. I always think, do you think that Good luck. Yeah.

A (61:47)

To you in your life. I'm always like, no judgment. Good luck to you in your life. I don't, I don't, I respect it. I, I don't fully buy it. And I'll tell you what, as opposed

B (62:04)

to getting a divorce, they say we decided to open up our marriage.

A (62:08)

I've heard that. I've heard that.

B (62:10)

Yeah. Because we, we are, you know, we, we, we're great as a couple, but this, we both would like to have sex outside the marriage. Look, I did a whole show about monogamy.

A (62:22)

Some, to some degree. My girlfriend's boyfriend was all about how I was never gonna get married and here's why, here's the seven reasons why. And all this stuff because Jen and I went through a period where before we got married, we were like, okay, we're not exclusive to each other and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, good luck with that. We did that. It was a debacle every week. So much drama every week was like, who's that? What's that? What's that all about? Who's that? It's like, what do you have, fucking two lives? I don't know. It just feels like, again, no judgment.

B (62:57)

People just want to say whatever. You know, everyone has Grown up and have an affair. Just cheat and do it well.

A (63:07)

I just feel like when Jen and I were in this phase of life where that's where we're. What we were going to do. We're like, it just did it tactically. It required so much preparation, so much planning, so much clandestine. And honestly, like, how do you, how do you do that without actually lying if you're with the person all the time, if, if you know that person well enough, you know they're fucking lying. You just know. You just know in your bones you're

B (63:37)

getting angry and it hasn't even happened. Yeah, I'm riled up for comedic purposes. Hey, I've made a living out of that. Yeah.

A (63:55)

The last thing we do is working out for a cause. If there's a nonprofit that you like to support.

B (64:00)

Yeah.

A (64:01)

We will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

B (64:04)

Oh, okay. Broadway Cares, Equity Fights aids.

A (64:08)

It's a phenomenal organization. We'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

B (64:13)

Oh, that's great. Thank you.

A (64:15)

Are one of the greats of the greats of the greats. And dare I say, I love you and I treasure your friendship.

B (64:23)

And I love you and I treasure your friendship, too. Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no

A (64:34)

that's going to do it. For another episode of Working it Out. If you haven't seen them already, watch Dick's the Musical and Beau's Afraid. I love those movies. You can watch the full video of this episode of Working it out on our YouTube channel, Ike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos. Check out birdbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about all of my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working it Out are myself, along with Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simon. Sound mix by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and as always, our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, go over to Apple Podcasts and rate and review us. You know what's really nice is if you just write down, type in which episode you like best. So if you say, hey, I really like the Kate Berlant episode or the Mateo Lane episode or the Ray Romano episode, people will go, oh, okay, that's a good place to start. And if I'm being completely honest, the way people find out about the show is people like you telling your friends and telling your enemies. You know, tell Joaquin Phoenix. That guy needs to know if you ever meet Joaquin Phoenix. You might not, but Nathan Lane did when he worked with him. You could say, hey, Joaquin, we don't know each other. I'm not gonna tell you how to do your job as an actor, but I do think you should check out this podcast. It's called Working it out, where Mike Birbiglia talks to other creative people, like your co star, Nathan Lane, and others. Maybe you can listen in between takes. Thanks, everybody.

B (66:09)

We're working it out.

A (66:09)

We'll see you next time.