Phil Horning: How To Create a Code to Live By

Summary

Episode Summary: Phil Horning – How To Create a Code to Live By

Miles Ahead: Strength for The Inner Life
Host: Dr. Miles Salisbury | Guest: Phil Horning
Date: January 27, 2026

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1. Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the concept of creating a personal code to live by, especially for modern men facing burnout, emotional numbness, or loss of drive. Host Dr. Miles Salisbury and guest coach Phil Horning discuss why having a set of guiding tenets can ground individuals, foster presence and connection, and help navigate today’s “gray wall” of depression and societal disconnection. They break down the process of developing personal values, protecting one’s sovereignty, building routine, and deepening the inner life—illustrating how to move from survival to meaningful self-leadership.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. The Value of a Personal Code

• What Is a Code?
  • A set of values, principles, or “tenets” that provide foundational guidance for how to live, lead, and heal in the modern world.
  • Traditionally formed by digesting influences from ancient and contemporary sources, but must be shaped by and for current realities.
    “What are we seeing today that we need? ... When we create these things, what have we been seeing today that we need?” —Phil (01:18)
• The Dangers of Not Having One:
  • Modern life pulls individuals toward directionlessness, burnout, and disconnected “containerization” (surfacing only safe or shallow topics).

B. Presence, Contact & Vulnerability

• Contact:
  • True presence in connection—not just sharing information or keeping interactions “in the head,” but bringing embodied presence and emotion.
    “Contact is in a way of presence where we are with this person, how we’re connecting… almost a singular mind.” —Phil (03:14)
• Containerization:
  • Healthy vs. unhealthy “containers” in conversation—limiting depth to stay safe vs. allowing some vulnerability in safe relationships.
• Cultural Barriers:
  • Most men are conditioned to avoid vulnerability, leading to emotional isolation.
    “We fear a lot of what we have below here.” —Phil (05:57) “So it’s protection, maybe.” —Miles (06:29)
• Guarded Intimacy:
  • Meaningful sharing requires trust and sometimes just “one notch” of openness, not an emotional flood (11:39).

C. Phil Horning’s Tenets: The Grounded Warrior Code

Phil walks through the evolving tenets underpinning his coaching and life practice. Each is discussed, with real-life examples and applications.

1. Bring Presence with Contact (10:32)

• Show up in every interaction with full presence and a willingness to be vulnerable.

2. Live in Congruent Truth (22:15)

• Make sure your internal reality aligns with your external actions.
• Requires ongoing self-examination and adjusting as your sense of self evolves.

3. Protect Sovereignty with Boundaries (16:50)

• Maintain personal agency by creating and enforcing healthy boundaries—with others and with yourself.
• Avoid outsourcing your moral compass; “be self-led.”

4. Draw Courage from Integrity (28:19)

• Living according to your values may require courage, especially when facing discomfort or disagreement.
• Integrity provides the strength to act despite fear.
  “You’ll feel fear... But will you take action of what’s aligned to you?” —Phil (30:09)

5. Let Discipline Forge Ritual (33:16)

• Consistent routines (morning or otherwise) become rituals that set the tone for your day/life.
• Use discipline to initiate change; ritual to maintain and deepen it.
• Physical cues (changing shoes, decompressing) help transition between roles and spaces.

6. Walk a Path with Vision (42:14)

• Cultivate an inner vision for your life—beyond superficial goals.
• Vision is not just material (houses, cars); dig deeper to the underlying values those things reflect, e.g., security, community.

7. Forge Relationships Through Real Connection (50:53)

• Focus on genuine friendship and intimacy, not surface “community.”
• Build quality relationships—with friends and partners—through openness and honesty.

8. Serve from Responsibility (58:29)

• True purpose involves serving others and your community—without codependency.
• Service should be from a place of inner fullness and responsibility, not self-negation.

9. Deepen the Soul (66:35)

• Allow both suffering and joy to deepen you. The “darkness” in life contains seeds for growth if you’re willing to explore it.
• “Soul” here refers to the mysterious, intangible depth and weight within us, cultivated through facing both grief and joy. “When we go to deepen the soul... the grief, the darkness, gives us material, but so does the joy and happiness.” —Phil (67:46)

D. The Role of Ritual and Men’s Community

• Minnesota Men’s Conference (w/ Francis Weller): Phil shares his transformative experience participating in multi-day ritual (poetry, song, building, grief ceremony) emphasizing play, connection, and collective healing (80:10–94:03).
• The Loss of Community:
  • Modern life has eroded shared rituals and intergenerational wisdom; rebuilding these is vital for wellbeing.
  • Returning to simple rituals (fire, song, storytelling) can reconnect us with lost archetypes (warrior, lover, magician, king).

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You just want to feel heard… Let’s go with listen moment first. Oftentimes you just want to feel heard.” —Miles (12:12)
• “It feels really good when you… know it’s someone you trust and has earned that inner part of you a little bit.” —Miles (11:29)
• “We don’t see presence. We don’t see contact.” —Phil (03:01)
• “You’re writing yourself your own code… internal rules of engagement.” —Phil (31:32)
• “If you have it and you just try to live it out, you’ll probably feel better and you’ll probably be proud of yourself.” —Miles (31:44)
• “This is for you to take and morph it as you need it to.” —Phil (32:09)

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4. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:49] – Containerization: How men limit vulnerability
• [10:32] – Tenet 1: Presence with Contact
• [16:50] – Tenet 3: Protect Sovereignty with Boundaries
• [22:15] – Tenet 2 & 4: Living in Truth/Courage from Integrity
• [33:16] – Tenet 5: Discipline & Ritual, practical routines
• [42:14] – Tenet 6: Vision and envisioning one’s path
• [50:53] – Tenet 7: Building Real Relationships
• [58:29] – Tenet 8: Service from Responsibility; real service vs. codependency
• [66:35] – Tenet 9: Deepening the Soul, grief as initiation
• [80:10]–[94:03] – Phil’s experience at the Minnesota Men’s Conference: men’s ritual, grief, poetry, archetypes, and transformation

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5. Takeaways & Guidance for Listeners

• How to Build a Personal Code:
  • Start by identifying your values around presence, truth, boundaries, integrity, routine, vision, connection, service, and soul.
  • Let these tenets inform your routines, relationships, and responses to life’s challenges.
  • Codes can and should evolve through different life phases; simplicity beats complexity.
• Find Community:
  • Join or start men’s groups or attend retreats to experience ritual and connection.
  • Rebuild or reintroduce rituals in daily life to anchor yourself and make transitions (e.g., work to home).
• Healing is Communal:
  • Real transformation involves not just bandaging wounds but letting both joy and suffering deepen and “ripen” your soul.

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6. Links & Resources

• Phil Horning:
  • The Grounded Warrior
  • Grounded Warrior Podcast
  • Instagram: @thegroundedwarrior

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7. In the Words of the Hosts

“Get out there, guys, and find your own code itself.” – Phil (99:52)
“Write them down, listen to them, integrate them as you will. Create your own code from it.” – Miles (97:33)

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(This summary omits advertisements, standard intros/outros, and tangential admin discussions.)

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Miles ahead podcast with Dr. Miles Graham Salisbury where he shares tactics, techniques and protocols to improve your physical, spiritual and mental fitness in order to become self led, grounded and integrated. Welcome back.

[B]

Well, thanks for having me again, Miles. It's good to see you.

[A]

You're like my most repeated guest besides. But you're catching up to Josh now.

[B]

It's always great though. It's always great.

[A]

Hell yeah. Yeah. That's good. We got some good things to talk about. You've been digesting some stuff for your practice, which is cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Today's episode will be on a code to live by. I think everyone should have. It's sort of like your values, you know, living, living out your values. And if you have a personal code, I think it's good. Like Traver has his. I don't know how many he has his ethos tenants.

[B]

They're very good.

[A]

He has 12. Okay. Yeah. And they're solid. His book, man and Civilized. They're really good if people want to check that. So you've been digesting some of your own and you said it's. They're sort of still work in progress, but some of them are solidified. Is that accurate?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So lately, you know, digesting a lot of what my own human experience has been, as well as things and influences I've taken. I mean, a lot of these things that we see today in ethos or tenants or principles, it's, you know, it's a lot of digestive material from over the ages. And what we believe is to be true in a lot of things that I see and resonate both myself and other men that I've been around, worked with and you know, I mean, decade plus that I've been exposed to all of this in the works and especially in the last few years, it's, you know, what, what have we been seeing and also when we create these things, what have we been seeing today that we need? So while we might have influences from the past and things, but what are we seeing today that we need? And my beliefs too, of where I want to put out some certain tenets for the Grounded Warrior project that I have going for my coaching business. And a foundation for that is really just some things that we just hope open our minds what we have seen and heard, but also to help push us a little bit beyond where we are currently and a lot of days today. What we see with modern men in society and things is, you know, it's all this jargon, all this stuff that's out there.

[A]

Brain and dated.

[B]

It's very. I mean, no pun intended, but yes. Ungrounding.

[A]

Well said. Yeah. Groundless. Yeah.

[B]

It's. We see directionless. We don't see much presence. We don't see contact. I know that's a word that we've used a lot in the past, and the things that we've talked about.

[A]

Want to explain that real quick for people that don't know what that means?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So contact is in a way of presence where we are with this person, how we're connecting. So, like, right now, Miles, you and I are in a certain level of contact. Yes, it's virtual, but right now we're. We're connecting together, working this together. Whatever we're talking about, whatever solution we're trying to come to. And we're experiencing almost a singular mind. We're trying to form one as we continue and progress in our conversation. In a way, that's contact, but also the emotions we share, the things that we kind of reach and touch each other's boundaries just here. This is the things that we've learned from Dewey and other influences out there. It's just making this nice touch right at the boundary of ourselves.

[A]

I love it. And a lot of men, this is kind of a struggle because they don't. It's contact light. Like it's contact around sports or something topical.

[B]

It's up here.

[A]

Ah, it's in the head. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Logical scores and. Yeah, it's fun there in a. In a way. There is a little bit of a contact to it, though, too, because you're sharing a fun experience.

[A]

Yeah. But the.

[B]

There's not much of us full. Let me give you everything. What's just under that container we put in men. And this is actually something that's been coming up a lot lately with my coaching. It's containerization. Healthy versus unhealthy. Containerization.

[A]

Say more about containerization. What do you mean?

[B]

Sure. Yeah. So one way, like, hey, let's talk about sports. Miles, how's the Arsenal doing?

[A]

Dude, for first fucking place in the Champions League and the Premier League. I knew.

[B]

I knew that would trigger you, but it did. I just say that to avoid something from you saying, hey, talk to me about more depth of containers. Or was I using that to connect because I wanted to see your reaction?

[A]

Yeah. It could give me a good entry point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you could use it to avoid, like you said.

[B]

That's kind of the weird dichotomy between the two is that there's a container for. To Say, hey, I'm just gonna stay up here in my head when I make contact with you, but I'm not gonna express much motion. I'm not gonna tell you how I really am below here. And it's. It's not done all the time on purpose. A lot of times it's unconscious. Like we just cut ourselves off right here. Nothing goes more heartfelt, gutfelt face, led conversations or connections. Why do you think we do that? Go ahead.

[A]

Why do you think we do that? Isman?

[B]

We fear a lot of what we have below here. And it's not per se, what we feel is in the body. But also maybe what thoughts are there in the unconscious? Some things that we're hiding, of being exposed. What do we have just under the surface? Are we actually feeling sad, anger? Are we scared of happiness and joy and connection because we've been burned so much in our life?

[A]

So it's protection, maybe.

[B]

Exactly. The container. So.

[A]

So containing ourselves from feeling, from putting, being the V word, vulnerable.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The healthy kind,

[A]

right? Yeah.

[B]

Once again, there's a lot of this stuff is too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You can overshare and you can. Exactly.

[B]

And that's a whole different kind of unhealthy container.

[A]

No container.

[B]

Yeah, no container. But for instance, a lot of things that come up with the container is like, okay, well, maybe I know with this group of friends or this place that I'm going to go out to. Yeah, we're just going to talk about sports. And that does create a container within us. And we're not going to really go much more. But what if I really wanted to allow myself to open up to you more, say, miles, what actually has been happening? How are you? Actually, that kind of breaks to say, well, how are you? Good is the response.

[A]

God, I know. I hate. I hate small talk. I hate, how was your weekend? How was Christmas? I was like, good God, I'm. I'm like a depth guy, like you asked me. I'll go there. I'm not going to give you a surface level answer. I just hate it.

[B]

But also, you know, the. How are you questioning? I think we also overthink it. Especially you say, well, I want somebody to connect with me. Well, you also might need to provide them a little bit more, say, no, actually respond like that. I am this. And it might take them back because, you know, they're expecting the good answer.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But at the same time, it's not to say that. It's always done in an ill attempt to say, oh, how are you? A lot of people do actually want to know. And if you were to say, well, actually I'm feeling kind of sad right now, or I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed.

[A]

And just to say that, yeah, it's

[B]

also better than good.

[A]

It is, yeah. It kind of takes you aback too because like, you have to self reflect for a second. What is going on? Feel on my chin. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, sidetracked, but, you know, I mean, it's the allowing versus allowing. So allowing through question to say, miles, how are you actually. Versus allowing through response saying, well, actually, instead of they just ask you, how are you? Well, actually, just adding the word actually can break a container or create a new one in a different level that

[A]

expanded out a little bit. Yeah.

[B]

Or creating that contact.

[A]

The contact can happen. Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes that contact, if you're saying, well, actually, and they're not ready, you're just grabbing them and taking them how much.

[A]

How much time you got.

[B]

So, you know, we digress. But that's definitely a spot where making that contact, that conversation that we see out there is. And it's something that is fundamental. And that's actually one of the first tenets that I've been putting together more as a reminder. And that first tenet really talks around bringing presence with contact. So I made it a phrase. Technically you could just say contact, but once again, you have to explain it.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

How best do we need to bring. It is like one of these tenets, bringing presence with contact. So you're bringing your sense of self and that whole level where you want to allow some of this vulnerability to say, well, actually that's bringing a presence.

[A]

And this is number one.

[B]

This is. This is most likely number one. There's a little subject to change, but for me, this is pretty solidified as

[A]

number presence with contact.

[B]

Presence with contact. So showing off where you actually are and maybe allowing a little bit of that vulnerability, say, well, actually, I'm feeling this.

[A]

Yeah, Fucking feels good when you can just get a little bit out off your chest anyways. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's somebody who gives a fuck. You know, you can, you know, when it's the dipshit at the office, it's just like, how was your weekend? He doesn't want to hear. Or she doesn't want to hear about your fucking weekend. It was fine. How was yours? And then you just. They just want to go on. I fucking hate that. But it feels really good when you. When you know it's a someone you trust and has earned. I think they have to earn it back. To like not oversharing. That person's gotta earn that inner part of you a little bit. And it feels good. When you can actually just say, oh yeah, I've been struggling or I'm great or I've been working on this or whatever.

[B]

It feels good.

[A]

It like takes the weight off a little bit sometimes a lot bit.

[B]

And I also challenge people to just tickets. One slight notch of that open.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Just one notch. You don't have to go like, oh,

[A]

this is my whole life.

[B]

No, no, no. Actually I'm just feeling overwhelmed. Yeah, that's it. You don't have to add anything more. If they ask why or more, then yeah, you are making even more contact. But you're bringing a sense of self and emotion and awareness of who you are and where you are right now. That's presence. Bringing that into the context.

[A]

It feels good. And I think a lot of guys are afraid to do that because they're afraid the other guy's gonna go into what advice giving. Well, in my experience, I think you should. You just wanna feel heard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's like this happens a lot with relationships where it's a listen moment versus fix it moment. You know, like let's go with the listen moment first and then maybe we'll be there for, for some advice if we ask for it or whatever. Oftentimes you just want to feel heard and like just with, and respond with like silence or like yeah, I, I see you or like yeah, that must be hard or whatever or that's great and then just let it sit for a second rather than like going into your 10 point plan of how you know how to fix your buddy. I think there's a fear of judgment or something or like I'm not perfect or you. Cause men, we're kind of like always sizing each other up and how are we doing and our ego's getting way back to our heads and like it puts us in that too vulnerable spot. Am I going to be judged? Blah, blah, blah. But if it's someone who knows you and has earned that inner world, it feels good because you know they're not going to come in there and pick you apart. Or you might be open to advice because you know it's, they have your best interest

[B]

you can trust and you can just sit there and say I just want to be in this moment with you. I feel that you don't have to say I'm so sorry or this or that of this. Oh, this and that. How can I fix it? No No, I hear you and I'm with you.

[A]

How rare is that these days?

[B]

Exactly. And it's. It's something I actually and once again came across more recently through a book I was reading, Super Communicators. They. I can't remember where they got it from, but a bunch of teachers were asking their students, do you want to be heard? Do you want to be helped or do you want to be hugged? Simple.

[A]

I like that. What if you want all three? Yeah.

[B]

And you can say, well, I want all three in a certain order. I want to be hugged right now. Then I want to be heard, and then I want to be hugged.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

Super Communicators. That's the book.

[B]

And it breaks that logical cycle, especially men have of, I need a fix. I just need a help. And when somebody just wants to be

[A]

hurt,

[B]

and it gives power to that other person to make a choice of how they want to create a container with you.

[A]

Ah, there you go. I like it.

[B]

Instead of control

[A]

on both ends. Yeah. Then there's a power struggle, perhaps, or whatever.

[B]

I think it's healthy in a way to say help heard hug. That creates a place for both people to come in almost as equals.

[A]

Yeah, we're not touched a whole lot as men. You know, I think all of our mentors, Connor, Trevor, Dewey, have talked about, with attachment theory about how boys after a certain age just stop getting picked up, touched, hugged when they're in distress. And girls, it's like, it just goes on, like, oh, my gosh, you okay? Boys? It's like, well, you know, rub some dirt in it or whatever, and they stop getting touched, which is not that great. Not great for attachment. So bringing the hug back is good. Like, a good bro hug is good. You know, all these retreats we go to, they fucking start with a bro hug, and it's great. Yeah, it's a little jarring at first when you're like, oh, this is kind of nice. Like, yeah, where's this?

[B]

Bear hugs. That's my thing, bear hugs. Oh. Even that guy Dave Boyd says, yeah, I want. I want one of those Phil Barons. He stole me.

[A]

That's funny. And you're like, hugging Dave Boyd is like hugging a small gorilla.

[B]

It is a small gorilla hug.

[A]

He is a large human. He's part of man uncivilized. For those of you that. Yeah.

[B]

Gray man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've had them on your podcast, I hope.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We had a very interesting conversation about owning identity and having a bit of own sovereignty, in a way. Yeah. Which Is actually one of another principle too I have or tenet.

[A]

Should we move into that one or is that one not.

[B]

No, we can definitely move number two.

[A]

Or is this number seven or what

[B]

this is for me, like it's a little down further in the list. But you know, the order's not all that in particular.

[A]

It's not linear.

[B]

No, no. Because it's actually living all these things as much as possible. But more reminders too.

[A]

So what, what's this one called?

[B]

So this one is protect sovereignty with boundaries. So you know you are responsible. Once again, when we were talking about emotions, your thoughts, feelings, choices in life, you're responsible for that. And that responsibility also means setting what you need to have as boundaries with them too. And to say, hmm, I know, like I need to get to the gym, otherwise I am just a mess.

[A]

So boundaries with yourself even. Yeah, that's arguably more important in some ways.

[B]

There is another part too. I talk about routines and rituals, but it kind of. They do blend a little bit in that way on purpose. But being able to say yes and no too, to things. So you get to the gym and somebody says, yeah, we're gonna go for drinks afterwards. Kind of weird thing after the gym, but it's happened. Some people have instant gratification while at the gym where they have a drink on the treadmill. But really it's to say, you know, I went to the gym because I want to better my body and I'm focused on my physical health at this moment. Or for this part. No, I am not going to go grab drinks. I can go out with you guys, that's cool. But I'm protecting my choices, my life, my body, and having a bit of my own sovereignty, rather than blending into something that I know just won't serve what I need to have it. There is a difference between responsibilities and sovereignty. But sovereignty is to say, I make my choices from my own heart and I don't allow basically outsourcing my moral compass

[A]

to society, to other people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is this sort of like being self led?

[B]

Yes, it's exactly being self led. So. Because there's definitely a part. And another thing too is you do have responsibilities in life that you can't just say no. But this bigger part where sovereignty that we see, especially in today's society is there's so much outsourcing of our own thoughts, morals and values that we're saying, I don't know where I align. Well, if I just follow this path because everybody's outlining it for them, okay, I'll just fold into that and whatever they say goes, yeah, it's nice and

[A]

easy, but that's fucking dangerous. Yeah. Fucking lemmings walking off the cliff at some point.

[B]

So it's important that we keep a sense of self, our own grounding and we develop those boundaries to say, hmm, maybe I'm gonna start, you know, just not looking at news ever again.

[A]

Pro tip. Pro tip. Yet it's not news anymore anyways.

[B]

Yeah. Or I'm just gonna put it in a places where, you know, I know in that container. If I'm going to read this, I need to always ask myself, is this true to me?

[A]

Ah, I like that. Yeah. We don't often ask that, do we?

[B]

Yeah, no, no. And that's sovereignty. Is this true to who I align with? Does it change a little bit of my own thinking maybe of how I heard something, heard one piece. And of course there's always contradicting pieces out there. Always news, of course. But what's true that I know for me not because of what culture, society. Well, culture's different. Society, religion or all these other institutions are trying to teach me or tell me what do I know from my own lived human experience.

[A]

There you go, your direct lived experience. Yeah, hey, that's big. It doesn't mean you reject all these things, but you, you take em and you digest them. A lot of people aren't digesting. There's just like baby birds with their mouth open saying feed me, feed me. You know, and the mom's pre digesting that food for you. And it's not even your fucking digested food. That's. That's a little bit dangerous. That's it. But it's easy. We're inundated. There's so much. You're like, cool, just tell me what to think. It's too hard. And then off you go to off the cliff. I think it could be dangerous. But doesn't mean you ignore everything. You have to take it in and digest it to find out, kind of to bounce it, bounce ideas off yourself to see does it align with who I am? Well, first of all you have to find out who the fuck you are. That's a lifelong process. But that's the dichotomy though, right there. There's the external thing. Does this align? Does this. How does this resonate inside of me? And you kind of like struggle with that. I think it's the struggle that's hard but good. You know, like we were at the man in civilized retreat and turning the end Michael was saying, let Let what you've learned, all this pain or that's come up, or all these goodness that come up, like, work you. Like, let it work you. I was like, I really like that. Don't chase it away. Like, let it work you. It's meant to not feel awesome. What is it trying to teach you? I think that's it. I don't know if that's what you're talking about.

[B]

Oh, no, it is. And actually, the one tenet before sovereignty is actually living congruent truth. A big piece of that is your inner world. What's congruent? That's a harder one to get to. Like you're saying to the unconscious, what's underneath? What maybe something wounded in us is causing us to think in a certain way or that we're taught often.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it's waking up to that. And as you're stating, and my goal is we have to let that work us, to say, okay, we need to understand it, see it, and ask ourselves, even if this within us, our own values, our own inner reality, is this even true to me, to who I know, my soul, my purpose, and who I am, is this actually true to me?

[A]

That's one of the things I really liked about when we went through the art of instinct, intuition. Jedi training with Dewey and Kimberly is listening to your instinct and intuition. Like, what is even that? You know, we spent the first day talking about that, developing that within yourself. I think without that, how are we supposed to even check in with ourselves? Like, we have to start learning and developing what that is. Because if we're in the logo swap in the head, it's not really intuition. Often, you know, it's just ideas. It's concepts, it's postulations. Like, they're. They're helpful, but that's just like the tip of the iceberg.

[B]

And, you know, one common thing I keep hearing a lot is, well, I don't know what my purpose or my values or this or that is. Well, you only have one. Then go find them.

[A]

Your purpose is to find your purpose. That's it. That's a good starting point.

[B]

So you actually do have one.

[A]

You do. Yeah. The quintessential spiritual question is, like, who am I? Okay, let me dig into that one.

[B]

Like you were saying earlier, test it.

[A]

You have to. It's not an overnight thing. You have to just have to test. Yeah.

[B]

And they will change, and it will change.

[A]

You have phases of life, all that stuff. Yeah.

[B]

And the more elixir we get in life, the more things that happen. In our lives to add to all of that vessel within us. But we still have to keep heating it and moving it and mixing it. And that is taken directly out of Francis Weller. He talks about finding a bit of the soul and going through some of the grief work and some of the things that happen in our lives to say we need to take all this material. It actually gives us material when we go through hard times. It actually gives us stuff to help align our soul, Help align us, soul, spirit, however you want to take that. But just in that level.

[A]

Yeah. It's sort of like a meaning of life truth. Like in Buddhism, the first humble truth of life. Life involves suffering. So you always get a chance. You always need a chance to learn. Like, don't worry. Something to work with. I think it's like a training ground. That's one of my personal, perhaps beliefs is the whole idea of reincarnation. Like, how are you supposed to do this in one lifetime? Jesus. Like, there's so much to learn, like, and whatever. All spiritual traditions talk about a version of this, you know, learning, learning, learning. Why are we here? What are we doing? This is part of it.

[B]

In a version of infinite, too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Until you go to heaven. Nirana, whatever, and your time is over, whatever your belief system is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You'll get a chance. Don't worry.

[B]

Yeah. So I love this other phrase I heard from Francis Weller, from one of his mentors, is he would point to a rock and say, your soul is. This is on this timeframe, theological time, not that. And then he's like, it hates this. And he points to a clock.

[A]

Yeah, antithesis. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So give yourself grace.

[A]

Say it again.

[B]

Give yourself time and grace to make the change and metamorphosis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like rock.

[A]

Yeah. You're in a chrysalis, a cocoon from time to time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Time's just a fucking concept anyways, that we made up. It doesn't technically exist. Right. It's a concept.

[B]

It gives us some understanding of what we're existing in, but we're trying to apply that scientific level of things. And it's not good or bad. It's. It's neither inherently evil or good.

[A]

It's just helps us function in daily life.

[B]

Gives us a little bit of the boundary.

[A]

Yeah. And if you want to argue that time's not a concept, just go ask someone about how their daylight savings time change was and how they got up that day and felt.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

We decide that an hour has just changed. We went back in time and forward in Time concept. What's that saying? Time exists but just on the wrist.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

I haven't heard that before. I think it's from one of my favorite bands, Travis. They're out. They're Scotland. Scottish. I think that's a good one.

[B]

That's right. You like those weird bands. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Anything out of the uk, you know, it's in. I'm fucking English. M. English was an American accent.

[B]

Ugh.

[A]

So that. Do we just touch on a third one there? What was that one?

[B]

Yeah, so we touched. Those were three of them. So we have being sire. Bleh. Bring presence with contact. Live in congruent truth and protect sovereignty with boundaries. And that actually is in that order right now that I have them in.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So we were just talking about the congruency one. Okay.

[B]

So one of the next ones. Drawing courage from integrity

[A]

from living in an integrated life.

[B]

Yes. So really, when you stand for what's right and once again, what's true in you and what you need to have for your own sovereignty and bringing presence, it does kind of build the old saying. Yep. You'll have integrity because you'll have a basis and a foundation. You'll have a certain ground to stand upon. The values, the morals, all that you stand from that don't waver, and you draw courage from that because you will be in congruence with yourself.

[A]

Courage comes from living those out.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's gonna be times where things will scare the crap out of you to stand for.

[A]

I get it. So what you stand for is there. And you. You're acting it out, and you might be a little bit afraid of doing it, but when you do it, you get the courage afterwards. Or you.

[B]

I mean, courage is that it's. It's basically facing. Everybody has the fear of being wrong or of standing up for something, even something small, or standing up for yourself, standing up against family or a certain friend in disagreeance. But that's your own integrity.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

And courage is that ability that you get to draw from that level of integrity because you know what aligns to you and what is true to you. You can stand against the things that you do. Fear. And that itself is courageous.

[A]

Gotcha. So it's currently building.

[B]

Yeah, you'll feel fear. That's just a normal human condition. When going through life, even small little things to very big changes to big things, we all feel it. But will you take action of what's aligned to you, what's true to you?

[A]

And that's the courage bit.

[B]

That's the courage.

[A]

I don't know if it's the same, but it reminds me of, like, I think Connor's talked about this, but it rings true for me. I just want to be someone I'm proud of. And when I do things that I said I was going to do, I feel proud of myself. And it feels fucking good. But it's scary sometimes. Often. But then if I don't, I beat myself up. And that's a whole nother rabbit hole of suck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know the self flagellation that we all go through?

[B]

Well, that's why putting in healthy boundaries mixed with your values and morals, like a boundary.

[A]

Not to go too far with the self flagellation.

[B]

It's just like training. And as you know, training in the Coast Guard, you fall back to your training or jiu jitsu policy or what might be this or that. So you're writing yourself your own code when you put in your values, your boundaries.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

Rules of engagement.

[A]

Ah, there you go. Internal rules of engagement. I like that.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

I'm gonna steal that one. That's good. This is why it's good to have a personal code, right? Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you have it and you just try to live it out, you'll probably feel better and you'll probably be proud of yourself.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. And you don't have to have a ton. Even these things that I'm giving these tenants aren't actually personal code, but to help form your personal code.

[A]

Okay. So you can take them and morph them as you will.

[B]

Yeah. This is for you to take and morph it as you need it to.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

Yeah. Keep it simple. Keep it a few. Don't try to go crazy with your own code. Gets hard.

[A]

Makes sense.

[B]

It just starts overlap.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like you guys said subject to change, because that. That's true. Different phases of life, you may want to alter them a little bit. Maybe that's why all these religions have like the Ten Commandments or the, you know, noble truths or whatever. There's like a. Those are codes, in a way. Yeah. Things to fall back on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting. We got four now.

[B]

Yep. So, I mean, continuing on with a bit of the military.

[A]

Military today. I like it.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. We got our rules of engagement and code of conduct. Yeah, we got all that. No, but one. One big thing, too, is discipline. And so the next one I have let discipline forge ritual.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's a. This one is a bit of a play. Um, and I Like it in a sense of. Because we think we're like. Wait, wait, wait. Ritual. Well, discipline. Having that to say, okay, every morning I wake up, I brush my teeth, I go do some stretch for five minutes and then make myself breakfast, and I go to the gym, and I do that every single day.

[A]

This is yours you're talking about, or just an idea?

[B]

Oh, it's just an example, but, yeah, actually, mine's not too far. It's literally, get up, put in my contacts, go take the dog out, feed her, take my supplements, and then, yeah, five minutes of stretch, and then go hit the gym. Or movement. 20 minutes minimum every day. Whether I go to the gym for an hour and a half for about four to five days a week right now, or the other days, I have to have at least 20 minutes of movement. So go for a hike, go for a run, all that. That is the foundation. And that's because of discipline.

[A]

Yeah, building discipline.

[B]

But it actually becomes more of a ritual when you wake up, when you start repeating that choice. It's now a ritual to say, hmm, this is how I start my day. I put my contacts in, I do this, I do that, and then now my self wakes up to say, hmm. Okay, time for movement. Time for this. It's a ritual. It's a crop. For me to say, this is how I build out to where I want to become a bit more. And it's almost, in a way, small initiation. Morning.

[A]

I like that. James Clear talks about atomic habits. Is like you're casting a vote for the person you. You want to be by doing those actions every day. And then once you have a routine going, your resistance drops. Cause it's like, oh, that's just what we're. We're doing. It's a new habit.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, one of my last guests on my podcast talked about the importance of routine and discipline. And he'd say, actually, it was Mr. Rogers would come into the door at the beginning of every episode, takes his outside clothes on his inside shoes and clothes and jacket and sweater and all that, and then he's here for you. Once again, he initiated the process of coming in and bringing in that presence of being here in the house. And it is literally a ritual to say, okay, now I'm here inside, however, I need to interact with my kids, with my wife.

[A]

Mr. Rogers is probably enlightened.

[B]

He most definitely is.

[A]

I underestimated that show when I was a kid. I liked it, but I don't remember. I was like, I mean, we.

[B]

We don't. We May not understand to this level like you and I do, seeing it and studying and analyzing, like Mr. Rogers and how he begins the show now. But as children, we saw that pattern happening, and we saw. We could see the shifts in emotion. We can see the shifts in being. And that is more.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that can even be a part of this, too. How do you show up for your kids? Do you have a certain initiation or ritual or discipline that gets you into the mode to say, I am done with work. I am now here to play with my kids. Even if it's just like, okay, I'm taking off my outside shoes, putting my inside shoes on, and I. I reinforce this because we love a physical thing to happen for us to actually change some of our own mindsets. A physical thing. Taking off shoes, putting on an out.

[A]

It's like a cue.

[B]

Yeah. We. Our mind loves props and interaction.

[A]

I'm gonna start to develop that. I mean, I have my own transition routine back from work because I've been humaning all day in weird places with people, like good and bad, dark places, good places. I have to drive home really slow. I usually listen to podcasts, but I put music on always on the way home. And then when I roll into the garage, I sit there for a second and I just kind of take a moment and I just say, like, release. Like, let go of. I'm transitioning from that world to this world. And my wife knows not to come at me with all the stuff she's done in the day because I've been humaning all day. She's like, just give me. Give me half hour to, like, change my clothes, put my inside clothes on, go out, check the mail. And then once I've. Once all the duties are done, then, yeah, tell me how your day was, or let. Look, do you need help? And the kids want to use me as the toy, so we'll play or whatever. That's the ultimate goal, is to keep that consistent. Some days I come home and I'm, like, irritable or not feeling that great. So having a ritual would be good that you stick to, and that's good. Thing for the listener to know is, like, this doesn't have to be 100% perfect. It's not going to be. But if you have, like, a North Star you always come back to, then, you know, that's good. Why? Why? We need codes. But I want to think on that, like, having a better. I have a. A good transition routine, but one that's a little. Has a little more depth and Consciousness to it like that, like with something physical that that's good. You think you're right. I think we do need that. Otherwise it's just in the head, like it's a concept. I think we'll do that. But then we don't always do it. But if there's like a cue, like no, I do A, B and C, then it reminds us to do the internal A, B and C when we get home. So I think you're onto something there.

[B]

Yeah. And I, I think what you have that ritual is beautiful. Is, is absolutely correct. A lot of us, we just come right into the door and. Or we don't even have a door. We have an office work remote.

[A]

Dude, that's.

[B]

And just don't even transition. So everything blends together. Well, it's not terrible or it's not terrible to be congruent in some ways. But a lot of things need a certain change in mindset too because especially in today's work, a lot of us are much more logical thinking based on our work, which makes sense. We have to. But making an actual transition, something to say, okay, I'm here now for my kids and I need to bring a certain different presence. I don't need to bring a very hard and strong demeaning. Not demeaning, strong presence against them. Like I might need to at work for some certain things.

[A]

Work mode. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I need to bring maybe a bit more softness, a bit more play, a bit more fun.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's especially important for the work, the work from home folk. I think this is even more key because it's so easy just to open the office door and like you're there, turn off your fucking computer and maybe sit and meditate for 10 minutes. Like make it conscious and then go out. But if you just. I just think that work from home thing is. It's great in some level, but awful on another sense. Like. And having a two hour commute or whatever is equally stupid. But if you have a decent commute where it's not terrible, you can use that time to like wind down and have it as a ritual. But yeah, the work from home thing can be not good for a lot of people.

[B]

Yeah. I mean it can work if you develop a certain ritual. Exactly. No, I mean not everything's going to be perfect. Some mornings you are going to be running out the door. Some days you're going to skip right over brushing your teeth or whatever it might be. Or hey, I have to run right home, grab the kids and run Right back out. I might not have a half hour to decompress.

[A]

Sure. Life be life.

[B]

Some parts there, you know, I mean that. Just give yourself a little bit of grace, too. So, yeah, I'll be back at it tomorrow. Just don't let it slide. I believe in atomic habits.

[A]

Yeah. Don't miss two days. Yep.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That was it.

[A]

You missed one day. But once he's made. You're forming a new habit. Once you have two days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's. That's fascinating.

[B]

Yeah. But we still need to have the grace to say it's okay if we do.

[A]

For sure. Yeah. Just a human condition.

[B]

Yeah. So. Yeah. Moving into the next one. Speaking of walking into things and all that, another tenant that I created that was talking about walk a path with vision. So this one you might hear in many different realms. Walk a path where no one else has walked, et cetera. Create your own path. You know, Walk a path with vision. It sounds weird because sounds like we might be walking somebody else's or one that's already created. It's not true. You create your own in a way. When you create a vision of where you want your life to go, a path will unfold. It may not always be seen. There might be a thick layer of fog. There might be dense forests you have to walk through. Likely thorns that will scratch you as you go through. But at least if you can keep a direction and a sense of yourself as you go through and allow things that you see as part of your vision to be your guidelines, then you will have no issue making this path.

[A]

So you're probably doing that with your clients as helping them develop their vision. What does that look like?

[B]

Yeah, it is definitely a part, I believe, of coaching and things that I do do with vision is to say, like, you can use the simple process of where do you see yourself in 10 years? But I usually don't go from that realm unless there's really a need for that level. I say, what do you truly see in yourself of? If you were to say, when I am healed, when I am aligned with all these other parts within me, what do I become and who do I want to become as a part of that? And literally visualize a scene. You know, it may. For some clients, it pops up as a physical place, physical location, the certain sense of themselves that they get go through and walk through to say, okay, what is that person's values and morals that you may see? What is that? How does that person live in congruent truth? How do they show integrity? What are their routines? So you don't have to build a lot of this components, and it actually gives them a lot of the answers to the other things that we.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It seems like you're. When you're doing this, you're asking the questions and building the first four that we just talked about.

[B]

In a way. Yeah. And it's just. It's not always money. It's not usually it's. It, you know, I mean, it's good to have financial stability, but it's not to say I have 20 cars and 20 this and. And all that. It's when we really look into who we are, we just find what's joy to us. And it's not always materialistic and that's not the places we should be always walking towards. We should be walking towards more of. What would a person who could be anywhere in the world and experience joy? What is their breakdown of them? What routines do they have? What values? What truths? What level of healing and process have they gone through of processing all the things that are inside and digging up that unconsciousness?

[A]

Yeah. And even the material things can be trailheads, like. Cause it's not about what it's about. Like, I want a big house and two cars. Like, well, why? Well, I. Cause I want to feel financially secure. Okay. Security is a value.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And why do you want to have a Porsche? So I can be seen. Oh, you want to be seen. So it's like. It's not about what it's about, but it's a good trailhead. Those are fine things to have, but yeah, they're topical. And if you stay topical, you're probably going to be unhappy. If even if you don't go within you get the five Porsches, you're going to have like a couple weeks of like, awesome. And then you're like, well, now what?

[B]

Exactly. And that's why I was struggling a little bit at the end entrance of this is that I was like, I don't want to talk about material, but there is a little bit of understanding. Exactly as you were stating. It's. Well, why. Why do you have this giant house? Because I want to have all my family with me.

[A]

There we go. Now we're getting.

[B]

That's more beautiful.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I want them to have space and fun and joy. It's not always fun with a big house.

[A]

It's true, actually.

[B]

What can be seen in with a big house is you may never see them.

[A]

Dude, it's so true. When I was growing up, my. I Grew up in a. In Lake Oswego, which was a pretty wealthy area. And my dad had a house in Dunthorpe which is like my neighbor was Danny Glover, Art Ellisakis, Blazers, like huge house. And they decided to build their house and they had to downsize to like a 1500 square foot house in lo. That's a small house, which is pretty, pretty sad. So in the big house. Yeah, we could all just retreat to this. The space and not really see each other in the small house for that like nine months or where it was. We're the closest we ever were. And it was still other problems going on with my life at that point. But like everyone was talking to each other, forced to be like right there. And like once the new house was built, it went right back to like the distance. So there is something you said for that it doesn't have to be a seven bedroom house. Like you might be happier in like a 1500 square foot house. It's ironic. I love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just made me think about that maybe I need to downsize. I got too much shit. I like things. It's another problem.

[B]

No, but no, you have a beautiful house.

[A]

Thanks. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Beautiful family and all that. And you guys do have that closeness which is I think just appropriate.

[A]

Yeah. It's not too big of a house where we can just hide. I can't hide out. Like there's just, there's no way. Yeah, I'd have to shut some doors. But yeah, it does help. And that whole hedonic adaptation thing is real. Like I was contemplating like the other day. It was just a moment. You know, you get moments of like gratitude that just smack you in the face and you're like, thank God. It was like it'd been raining for a long time and then the sun was out. The sun was setting and it was like, man, I have a great fucking view and this house is amazing. And like the last week I was just saying, oh, I gotta do all these improvements and like that's not that great. And like I started to like, not like the house. And I sat here, I'm like, how fucking lucky am I? This is a. Yeah, it's every, every house has things you gotta do on it. But like, I'm pretty fucking lucky. I shouldn't be complaining. I was just like, yeah, this is awesome. I could be with a fucking mountain right here. Like, shut the fuck up. Like, this is great. This is really. Just take it in. Just take it in.

[B]

Beautiful. Beautiful Slated too. And it's. That's exactly it, it's, you know, what is it actually that you want when you do go to the material side, you find yourself really heavily going into material and even connecting even more to the big house theory and all that is maybe you wanted rooms for your friends. Well, what does that mean? You want connection and community? Well, I need.

[A]

Need a place for a retreat center.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then it's worth it. I need that 10,000 square feet.

[B]

I need that 10,000 square feet. You know, we also call that colts.

[A]

I've got really good Kool Aid, man.

[B]

It's spicy like my white robes. No,

[A]

it's all lined up big closets.

[B]

But you know, that, that actually beautifully folds into the next tenet, which is forge relationships, relationships through real connection. And that is actually a very wide casted net because it's, it's twofold. It's building that community, connecting with men like we talked about earlier, earlier. It's important friendships that we have. Maybe if you wanted your friends closer like that, maybe it's that you're not quite building that full outside of the container that's already there and saying, actually, this is how I feel. So building that connection by bringing that presence and doing that, being able to forge this relationship a bit deeper with your friends.

[A]

Yeah, I imagine quality over quantity, or does it matter? What do you think?

[B]

I'd say, yeah, quality for sure.

[A]

And maybe it's dependent on if you're more extroverted or introverted, but the science is out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And highly dependent on friends types and proximity.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[B]

And you can definitely have the different groups. Yeah, this is my going out group. You know, we talk sports, we talk this, and we like to go to our favorite brewery every Friday. There's nothing wrong with that, actually. That's great. That's one form of community connection. But you may be also seeking more deeper to say, I need a friend I can just talk to. Open up and rely on.

[A]

Get real with.

[B]

Get real with. That's a little bit rare.

[A]

It sadly is. But I think we're craving it as men. And it. I think it's there if we, if we just risk opening up a little bit. It's like, oh, me too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Reading Connor Beaton's book when he, I think he was talking about being really nervous about telling his friend that he was not doing well. And his friend's like, oh, yeah, me too. And it was like, boom. Walls down, instant conversations of depth. And like, off they went.

[B]

I still find it tough.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But for all the reasons we just talked about for judgments and everything. But yeah, it's super. It just feels really good. And that's why it's good to do like men's groups or like, Connor has the alliance, Traver has the uncivilized nation. Like, go. Even if it's on zoom. Fuck. It just. That counts, you know, if you have to do it online, do it in person's better, I think, but whatever. And then having close friends near you you can go hang out with where you can just talk like we're talking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's the other part of this too, is how do you have the relationships with your loved ones? Right.

[A]

Yeah. That's another layer.

[B]

Yeah, it's actually not crazy. Far off. But also how do we connect with them and show a bit of own honesty of where we're at in curiosity, bit of vulnerability. It's all part of that same level. So we have the friends, but we also have other connection too with maybe with our wife or girlfriend. We talk about things that we wouldn't like. Hey, I really am feeling this level of. I'm losing the words, but we could probably talk a little bit more into sexual exploration. Yeah, that's always a taboo topic.

[A]

Shouldn't be. But is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's really just talking more about the depths of it and honesty. It doesn't mean just because you're feeling something you have to do. It's just maybe there's something else there too. Like behind having that fancy car or that big house.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Maybe there's a different meaning that you need to dig a little bit deeper into. Behind of. Well, I'm a little shy of saying this, or I really just want to just have this level of sexual exploration here with you. And. And maybe it's just trying a different position or maybe it's trying different things and going. Just going out for a different type of date even.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just, hey, let's go to a different restaurant.

[B]

Yeah, let's go to a different restaurant. But even that seems to be tough of a conversation.

[A]

Yeah, you get in your routines and like, you. You're stressed and you just want to like, okay, this is. We're doing this thing. But then you get stale.

[B]

I think you just broke open a. A whole nother spot of that too. Is, you know, this is the person that you're with 24 7, your partner. This is going to be a different kind of conversation than you would with a friend that you meet once a week or however, less. Much less frequency. This is A person that you're spending hours upon hours upon hours with. Not just several hours. Once a month, once a week.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Have that conversation, make that connection. You can't hide that. And that's living in your truth, too. And being congruent. It's all a part of this. All these other things fall right into each other. All these things that I've been working on for these tenants. Things that it seems like even the past and other places just inherently have known.

[A]

Yeah. So built into the cultural belief system

[B]

or

[A]

so layers and. What was that last one called again?

[B]

Forge relationships through real connection. Yeah.

[A]

Whatever that means to you. Real connection.

[B]

Yeah, Authentic. Real to it. Because connection can be viewed and seen in many different ways. We might just think just sexual with our partner. And it's like, that's not connecting. It's a form of.

[A]

It could be. It's part of it. Yeah. Somewhere like contact. Back to contact.

[B]

Yes. Yep. Probably not with friends, but I mean, modern relationships.

[A]

Sister wives are back, man.

[B]

Yeah. This one. This one really is. It is twofold between both having that community, but also having that real connection with the person that you are with or want to be with. And the more we can develop, even if you're single right now, the more we can develop a good, real connections and relationships with our friends, the more prepared you are going to be able to do that with anyone in your future.

[A]

Agreed. Yeah. That'll pave the way for that to happen.

[B]

Going to the next tenant.

[A]

Sabbath.

[B]

Serve from responsibility. Yeah. This one I played around quite a bit with for a while, because serving there really isn't any true higher purpose than helping and supporting others. Whether it's making real contact, real connection, forging relationships. But we also serve in a way to say we're responsible for what our own impact is. How we serve everyone else in our life. Our kids, our wife, girlfriend, friends. How do we perhaps create that little bit of opening too, for them, that certain.

[A]

So it gets you out of self too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gets out of yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Think about your own machinations and all. What am I doing? Gets you out of that. Like a lot of. A lot of advice in our world is like, you're depressed. Go volunteer. Go. Go work at a homeless shelter or whatever. You'll get outta yourself real quick and it'll feel pretty good.

[B]

Yeah. And that's what's incredible too. And that's also part of this is being able to serve something bigger than yourself or be able to provide something that nobody could ever pay you back for.

[A]

Ooh. That's A good one, and not expect a payment back.

[B]

So whether it is helping your community, which is definitely a part of it. So serving at a food bank, homeless shelter, whatever it may be, supporting, you have that responsibility for your own community as well. And. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And serving your family and friends around you not to compromise the other parts where you're giving all yourself up because you won't be able to serve.

[A]

No, that's codependency and nice guy caretaking. Yeah. If you lose yourself, you've gone too far. Don't do that.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, as part of this tenets, there is a certain order as I'll reinforce. Yeah. This is all the others come into play as well. You can't serve well if you are not in your truth or present.

[A]

You don't have a vision.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Then you're relying on someone else's vision or telling your partner, give me my vision. What do you want? What's your vision? I'll just live it up. Codependency. Let's not do that one.

[B]

Uh, yeah, it's. It's definitely. It's from here that we really can make an impact. And also what we, I believe we've been missing a lot of is our own community, Even our neighbors.

[A]

Oh, dude.

[B]

Yeah. So individualized.

[A]

Yeah. Do you know your neighbors? Do you talk to them? Do you hang out? Most people don't.

[B]

Yeah. So with these last couple tenants talking about making connections, relationships and serving, this is the basis of community, something we more or less used to have.

[A]

We did. Yeah. Modern living's crushed a lot of these things.

[B]

I mean, even just before COVID this is actually something I was talking with a friend about, was the loss of. Even the happy hour.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. People are doing it online and shit. And like.

[B]

Yeah, this sucks. Yeah. Like after work, you know, before all the remote work really flew into fruition with COVID the happy hour was big. Just to hang out for an hour after work. Decompress. Change created a. Maybe a bit of a ritual too. Maybe not always the best of ones, but. But something could go off the rails, transition too. But also it gave you a sense of a little bit of connection and a little bit of community. And I say a little bit because back then, too, it wasn't always this deeper level, real connections, anything like that. But at least there was a little bit to say, oh, man, the boss was such a jerk today. Or, man, that client just came in and steamrolled us. And it was like a way to vent, process and process. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. That is needed. That's like. I just envisioned like dudes coming back from the hunt and sitting around the fire and like talking about how it went or do you see how I got that? Or whatever. Or next time just processing all that stuff. It must have felt really good or like we did it or we failed. Let's process it. And then the family's around or whatever you're talking with your kids. It's just like ready made. We have got to find ways to bring that back. Obviously we can't go back to the stone age unless we decide to nuke each other and maybe we'll just be forced upon us, but there gotta be. We can't regress unless, I mean, that would regress us. There've gotta be ways to. We can't get rid of modern living. Right. We're stuck with it. But how do we bring all these truths back and fit it in? I think that's. I think that's where we're at in a way. We've got to figure that out or else, I mean, why we're the most depressed and anxious in the West. Most depressed and anxious we've ever been. You know, that's. That's not normal. We wake up to stress every day. Stressful alarm clocks, stressful notifications, emails, blah, blah. We're waking up to that and our nervous system's like constantly in fight or flight all day. That's not good. It's lonely.

[B]

It is, I think. And yeah, we are waking up. There's a lot more presence of groups. Men's groups. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some I run, some that I. Part of myself. Sake too. It's. It's coming back slowly. There is definitely more and more change towards having more communal spaces again, too slowly. Very slowly on that part. But it is interesting to see, especially Gen Z moving away from things like video games and online presence and stuff. There's a lot of gen zers that just don't even have a presence, which is fascinating.

[A]

I would have never thought. Yeah, or they're going, going to the dumb phones and stuff. That's awesome, man. I got a guy, one of my men's groups is like, fuck these things. He has a dumb phone. Yeah. And it's a little hard. Like I want to put in the WhatsApp chat. Here's the podcast and book that you can. I have to email it because he doesn't have a fucking smartphone, but good on him for doing it.

[B]

Once again, create your container, your phone.

[A]

There you go. That's pretty small.

[B]

Maybe a Physical container it goes into.

[A]

Yeah. Another guy has that brick, right? Yep. That thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's working for him. Like, I'm glad I'm not. I don't. It's not that bad for me, but, like, we're paying for technology to keep technology away from us. It's kind of hilarious. But we gotta do what we gotta do.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. And the rise of. We see a big influx of people wanting to just be more aware of this, too. So there's a desire and a need for that. Yeah.

[A]

Our psyche, our souls or whatever will force us into it. Because if we pay attention to what's going on inside, it doesn't feel good. Well, why? Let's start asking questions. That's why. One of the reasons.

[B]

And that actually stems pretty nicely to the last tenet.

[A]

Look at us.

[B]

Yeah, look at that. It just. This one is called Deepen the Soul.

[A]

Deep. Deepening the Soul.

[B]

Deepen the Soul.

[A]

Deepen the soul.

[B]

Yeah. It's like an action, in a way. Yeah. Not deepening, which I guess kind of in a way is. But it's different fucking grammar. You're asking the wrong person for that, too. Some of my dyslexia, you know, my synchronicities and things that we.

[A]

Making up new words.

[B]

Yeah. That was from a first episode that we recorded.

[A]

First one. Yeah.

[B]

Over a year ago. Yeah.

[A]

You won't let that one down because I thought you added a whole new layer to synchronicity. Like, damn, this guy's onto something. So Deepen. Deepen the soul.

[B]

Do.

[A]

Deepen the soul.

[B]

Yeah, Deepen the soul. And this really is all these things wrapped up, but also a different mystical component to it, too.

[A]

Sounds mystical.

[B]

Yeah. And I wanted a little bit of that in it because life is a bit of a mystery. And when we go to deep in the soul, especially what we started off talking about of just all these things that happened, the grief, the darkness, this gives us material, but so does the joy and happiness. And that's with this mix that we actually are able to create more of our soul into it and deepen it and adding some weight. I know I wouldn't be here today without the things that have happened in my life.

[A]

Flesh out what you mean by soul, because that's a charged word, right?

[B]

It is. And, you know, soul is that mysterious component because there is something that we always feel within. Maybe it's the gut, maybe it's the heart. Some of us say maybe it's just something of that we feel is like calling to us. It kind of adds this thing that we can't touch, this intangible component of our own being, but it has weight. We feel it when we connect and touch something that is real to us. Maybe we see something extraordinarily beautiful. There's almost a weight in that moment too. Like we see a beautiful imagery of. Of scenery. And when we're on a hike, it just. All of a sudden the tree line opens up and explodes into this landscape of mountains and a lake and forest. And there's just something that is a weight that happens there, a stillness. And that's a component to say, especially from all the things I've been through and the things in my life. I know that I'm just talking now, personally, when I see a new moment like that, there's almost more weight, more pull to just pause, bring that presence to that moment, and just gawk at the beauty that's there.

[A]

Yeah. It sounds very Jungian in his way of talking about the soul. People can look up the word numinous, but I don't want to derail the conversation. Google Jung. Jung's definition of numbness. You're. You're getting at what that is. And again, Buddhism, it's witness consciousness. The part of you that just notices, that's aware. And if you make space for that, you'll see and feel things on a. On a more, aha, deeper level than just your. Your logos, your logical mind. What do I think about this? You know, it's. You're not there. It just slams you in the face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or in. In the heart, I should say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a hard one to conceptualize and talk about for a good reason. You almost can't talk about it sometimes because it's. Words fail because they're a concept. We're getting past concepts when we talk about the soul. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, the word soul is. Is charged religiously. That too, big time. And when people hear soul, they all of a sudden could be charged with a negative connotation. And that's not true.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's just bringing yourself some depth.

[A]

Depth, yes.

[B]

And allowing life itself to permeate you. That is very Jungian, is the permeation of self letting things come into you too. So those are the things that allow weight and awareness and all these different things. It's also the times of grief and darkness and going to depths, but we sometimes try to plaster over or fill in that giant hole with cement, only for it to eventually just fall all into it and become a bigger hole.

[A]

Yeah. It weighs us down in a Bad way.

[B]

Instead of going down and exploring a. What is this hole and what is. What is there a little bit of the darkness and actually gaining the sight within the darkness to navigate through. Yeah.

[A]

You could talk about shadow work if you wanted to. In the Jungian sense. That's one part of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The unconscious.

[B]

But another part I love. That I heard, I believe, from Francis Weller, who probably heard it from Jung and other parts too.

[A]

He's in Jungian, I believe.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Big time. Is the things that we find. Now this is the quote from Francis is the unripened seeds of initiation are found within the darks and the depths of us.

[A]

Say that one more time.

[B]

The unripened seeds of initiation are usually found within the darkness or depths of us.

[A]

Is that some of the. Travers. Your greatest gifts grow in the garden of your wounds.

[B]

I'd say it's similar but slightly different. I think. According to Traver. Yes. There are parts of us that there are gifts. Pandora's box. There was hope left for all this darkness that was opened up. But when we go down and actually climb into this darkness. And I know Trevor talks about this and not having an apartment down in the depths, but to actually climb down too, which I love. He's like, don't have a condo down there. Um. Cause it's true. You want to continue to move. We also want to explore a little bit in there and find these unripened seeds within us. I know when I had my journey down, it was a very dark.

[A]

Was this with your nephew?

[B]

This was the passing of my nephew. Almost two years to the date of when we're recording this, actually.

[A]

Look at that.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, I mean, as hard as that grief has been, my journey transformed 10x because I pushed myself so hard to find more depths. And this gave me. This gave me a depth.

[A]

Yeah. Life has a way of breaking us open sometimes if we choose to stay with it. Which you did. You go places you didn't know you could go. It was scary.

[B]

A lot of people like that hole so bad.

[A]

Yeah, I bet. I bet people want to numb out right quick. I've been there.

[B]

Yeah. And there were a couple times. Yeah. I had to go to the surface.

[A]

Yeah. We didn't want to stay down there forever. Come up for air for sure.

[B]

Yeah. But the beauty of being in the darkness. And you know, I'm not trying to gloss anything over because it was hard and tragic.

[A]

That was hell for you.

[B]

It was my brother, my family, to see them too, through all that because we were all Very connected. But it brought in a certain level of how I could connect with other men too. On that level of loss.

[A]

Yeah. There's the gift.

[B]

It made me appreciate relationships and that connection. And it did deepen my soul. That's where a lot of this comes from was this deepening. A lot of these. All these tenets came from pain can initiate. Yeah. So I found some of my own seeds. Brought them up with me as I slowly climbed in my own time. There was times I tried to force it and I would slip and fall.

[A]

Typical guys. Right. Let's force our way through this.

[B]

But I realized I couldn't quite. You can't move fast on slippery rock.

[A]

Yeah. Slow, smooth. Smoothest fast. There's.

[B]

There's military connection.

[A]

That's a team. Team guy's statement.

[B]

So that was my long climb out. But I found a lot of things within because I know I would have ignored a lot of my ability to connect. My ability to dive deeper into conversations. My ability to explore just more of my own passion and purpose in this life. That truly take the time to get the education and learn. And in doing so too processing well and learning the steps. After Slippery Rock. After Slippery Rock. Going up. Bringing these seeds with me.

[A]

Yeah. Sometimes we have to go down into Hades to find out what's lost down there and bring it back up with us. But it fucking sucks down there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I guess it's supposed to.

[B]

Yeah. And it's for good reason. We have to feel that we have to go explore because there is an underworld based king Hades for Greek mythology. He wasn't some of the movie betrayed stuff that we think of evil and this and that. The real story of Hades is that he accepted the assignment to become the God of the underworld because he knew he was best fit. Not because he was forced or he

[A]

wanted to fuck with people or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Or to fuck with people or be vengeful. He actually was quite. Though of course there are some of the components depending on which story you follow about Hades. But he also wasn't over. He brought a lot of own meaning and depth when he went and visited him. But he also brought righteousness. Some of the stories of those who journeyed down into the. Into the underworld where Hades was and met Hades and his wife. I forget her name.

[A]

Was it Ophelia?

[B]

Yeah. I believe that's what it was. That's another story too. But it's been fascinating studying more and more of the Greek side. But in all summing this up you can have a conversation with him and be able to come back if you bring the right kind of conversation to him. Otherwise you'll be trapped. I can't remember the full stories about how one that came down, talked to him, but actually was allowed to return because he had the right to do so. Because of the conversation he had and the passage he had.

[A]

You can see the metaphor like, people stay in hell a lot, right? Because they don't. They don't ask the right questions, don't ask any questions. And they stay down there and it hurts that you burn. But also if you ask the right question, you come up, you're burning away what you don't need anymore, what's not right for you. So it's a cleansing in a way. Or you can stay down there and burn and suffer, which, I mean, the choice is yours. We all have a taste of both, unfortunately.

[B]

And I apologize. I can't remember the story because there's a few different ones that involve Haiti, but Hades. But yeah, there's. You have to have some of the right things in love. Big one was love because I know his wife too had sympathy for one that had love. And so that's another component is actually one of my values is try to show love in all things.

[A]

That's hard. Shouldn't be. But I guess. Well said. We should probably also talk about your Francis Weller experience you just had too. Yeah, going on about it for a little bit.

[B]

Speaking of a journey. Yeah. So back, gosh, the beginning of October, I went to Minnesota Men's Conference, which is a six day retreat up in Minnesota. It was at a big old YMCA camp at Sturgeon Lake for this one. And this was actually started 40 something years ago by Robert Bly. So this was all Robert Bly's Iron John. Yep, yep. His, his big conference though it's more of a retreat. But this was started back then by him and continued on by those that have studied under him and continued through this tradition of connecting men. And you know, it was fascinating was I probably would have never done this kind of retreat. When I looked at the description, there was like, well, you'll be doing storytelling and poems and song. I'm like, boy,

[A]

drum circles. Like, what does this hippie shit?

[B]

I barely been doing the guitar for a little bit over a year at the time. And it's like, I can't really make my way through the song. I. I'm terrible at poetry. I've been working on my storytelling or drawing. I haven't drawn since high school. So I was like, man, this is, this is going to Be interesting. But my friend who sent me a link, it just all worked out and was highly coincidental, which I was like,

[A]

okay, or is it a synchronicity?

[B]

It was a synchronicity that happened. Okay, I have to follow this. And I saw Francis Weller was going to be there, you know, only a few months earlier. I just got more introduced to him and learning more of his things. Like I was reading his books in the Absence of Ordinary. And then also he had a 10 hour course that I listened to on another trip, road trip I was doing. I was like, this is the man I need to follow for a little bit. Well, for my, for me, for my grief. Because he is big into grief processing and ritual. And I was like, I need to go follow him. And even though this retreat sounds wild and wacky, but he was one of their special guests that was going to be there all six days. And he's been there before, but it was actually like a decade since.

[A]

Since it's been.

[B]

Yeah, so it was the first time he was back

[A]

the.

[B]

You know, it. To begin everything off like, we started off like a regular men's retreat initiation that you and I have done. And we all gathered, talked a little

[A]

bit about

[B]

working with men, making connections and all that. And it was around a big fire. There was a nice fireplace. Yeah. And you know, Minnesota fall was about 30s or 40s, so it was chilly but not crazy. And it was beautiful. But yeah, just this big old fire going. And just they were talking about that. Then they started part of a story that some of these guys who study Jungian and study storytelling created themselves.

[A]

The retreat leaders. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Yeah, the main ones. So they started a part of that and that was. It was a wacky story because it's not actually a story read like a fairy tale. It is read more like Iron John in a sense that is a little bit more fragmented, little less story connected, but more deeper meaning for each and every single line and word.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of metaphor.

[B]

Yes. So I was fascinated. And then we get to the next day and you know, I'll try to sum it up a little quicker, but next couple days we. They started sharing poems and they had a song group if you wanted to go sing somewhere. I was like, okay, this is a little weird. And also we had build groups. So we actually had to go build certain components. Francis Weller wanted to do some rituals. So we built, built. We dug down and built a giant berm. So it was like this 12 foot long by 6 foot wide oval. We dug down about 3ft into the soil. Built out this berm around it, too. And it was where we were going to have this massive fire. Yeah. And then we created an archway out of some saplings and a small tunnel out of some other saplings and branches and things too. And I was like, this is interesting.

[A]

Just like we're going back to when we were like 10. Yeah, right. With shit in the backyard.

[B]

But that was what was crazy, was more I got myself involved. The more I kept hearing other men being involved with it too, the more I started joining in. I started all of a sudden writing poems. I was like, what? I've never written a poem besides, you know, a couple times in high school or elementary. That was it.

[A]

You're forced to. Yeah.

[B]

But then I started writing it on my own and I started creating a poem by, like, the second night.

[A]

The invitation was there.

[B]

It was. It was just me doing it automatically and started sketching in my book, which I haven't sketched anything since high school or even earlier. And it was just. The more things wanted to unfold inside of me from this depth. You know, if you want to talk about the archetypes, the lover, the playful, the joke, whatever version you want to go for. The trickster. Yeah. It just wanted to come out. So sorry. Sidetracked. Going back to building. We also built a sweat lodge.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

That was really cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I had the pleasure of being able to join one of the knights because, you know, it is limited. And there's 80 guys at this retreat.

[A]

It's quite big.

[B]

Big, big, big. And I was like, man, this is. This is gonna be massive to manage. They did an incredible job.

[A]

But, yeah, a lot of people.

[B]

And nothing's better than staying in bunk beds where you brought your own sleeping bag and pillow. Cause it's the YMCA bunk beds. Like living in a dorm again. Cause you had the shared bathrooms and all that. Yeah. But you're on a lake. And it was really cool. It was actually really cool time. But going back to the poems and going through that. So we. More story the next night. And I was like. I felt something was permeating me. So for the next couple nights, that's what it was, was we built some of these things. We worked on this, and then we also worked a bit on some things that we wanted to provide as gifts to the land. It was more of element of respect that they were trying to teach. So we also had, like, kind of a crafts time.

[A]

Went back to kindergarten. Here we go.

[B]

It was wild. But, you know, also, I Wrote for me, it was like there was going to be a place where we provide gifts and there was a place that we were also supposed to provide our grief and anything that represents it. So I wrote a bunch of letters. For me. For me, it was writing out things. Some people found some things in the forest area and built something out of that and whatever, it represented it to them. And on the fourth night, that's when we decided that's when the ritual is going to occur. So we had this big platform that was also built as part of the building time and made out of wood and tree branches and other things and had a container in it that we put all the stuff that we wanted to let go and all of our griefs as well. At least that was my intentions. Some other people may have had different intentions with it too, but it was what you needed to actually be burned to be released. And it also talked a lot about world grief too. Like loss of community, loss of culture that we've had, especially in modern society, especially this country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really don't have much culture. We have more just of a society.

[A]

Yeah, Consumerism. Yeah.

[B]

So that was one of the parts too, is the loss of connection with just other good men and having a group. Some of the things I put in there too, in that repertoire back to finding your soul.

[A]

I think that's soul work right there.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

One example of how to do that.

[B]

Yeah. So making it a little bit more brief, that night we carried that. We had song and it was beautiful. Lakota in Creek based traditional songs.

[A]

No shit.

[B]

That one of the guys is actually fluent and studied in Miguel Rivera, one of the leaders. Beautiful voice. Beautiful. Yeah. You'll recognize him. He's one of the main leaders that leads it every year. And. Yeah, so we had this journey all the way to the fire pit and they started the fire, this massive fire. Luckily it's Minnesota, everything was green, and we're out in the middle of a dirt field. So those things weren't worries.

[A]

It's not like Colorado, where everything's just fucking tinder bucks. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, so we carried this big thing that we built this shrine that represented the grief, the loss, all that. And we took that and we sang. We went through one of the archways to enter the place, the big archway. And then they put. They sang with the shrine and then they put the shrine into the fire. And yeah, people had their own reactions that they needed to. I know for me, when I waited to see the notes start to burn when the fire reached that it was another piece that for me of things I had to let go. I knew I fell to my knees and cried.

[A]

Great ritual.

[B]

Yeah. What was incredible was it lasted four hours.

[A]

The grief.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Purged.

[B]

And somebody. Multiple people were drumming for four hours, which was wild. They did not stop. And it's wild to see and hear like. Oh, yeah, native tradition that, you know, for 12 hours these people would go into these trances and this, that. But four hours alone of just movement and drumming and all that was wild. So that was a piece of transformation. And at the end, the fire started to die down a bit. After four hours of burning, it was big fire and everyone had time. We were to leave in silence and not talk to another soul as if everything was dead. Yeah. Nobody existed around us, not even the world. The moon is gone. Went to her bunks in quiet. And then the next morning we had a different ritual. A ritual of gratitude. Yeah, of life. And that was another thing. It's like, yeah, every morning we gave thanks to everything, but this morning was different. Spoke, hugged our brothers live. Yeah. And we actually did a ritual with water. I won't say too much to it because I also want you guys to have a little bit of that mysteriousness. But another ritual based with that, that was very life giving. And a lot of gifts were put back to where we burned the shrine. The things that we made to give. So all that to say, this whole retreat was an incredible experience. A because of the rituals and the things that we performed, because the things we were actually able to see, physically see and do, but also the importance that came through with the play that we've forgotten. The poems, the lover side coming out a bit. Things that we forgot that actually also help make a community too. Not just warrior, not just king, not just magician, but also the lover.

[A]

A lot of archetypes floating around in this retreat.

[B]

Yeah, big time, so to say. And to say, suffice that this was quite a journey and eye opening. It really was. It was the longest one I've done. Six days of all this storytelling, hearing stories, hearing how people disseminated these stories. And of course, we also had time where Francis Weller spoke about how to, you know, stuff about his books, his grief, his process. A little bit of education too, was a part of this too. So it was quite a great experience and journey to go through and to have my own parts in it, but also join in on larger rituals. So I also, I encourage those listening. You feel like there's a ritual because they exist within us. They just Felt like it was innate. And it is to have that.

[A]

That's why it's archetypal.

[B]

Yeah. Go perform your own ritual or with your own friends. And if it is burning, be safe. It is why we all are drawn to fire too, I believe. Like having the conversation and bringing those friends around. The physical fire. But there is a certain ritual we can always perform too, if we really feel the need. But it's not just fire. It also could be done with water. It could be done with many things.

[A]

Yeah. Lost art form.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Back to older cultures. This is what they did.

[B]

Yeah. So very beautiful journey. Unique. Very much in its own right. A lot of elders that were leading it.

[A]

Another thing we're missing in society.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're obsessed with being young and the youth staying young. Right.

[B]

Many people there too were in their 60s and 70s. Many men.

[A]

They had some good advice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some good experience.

[B]

So. Yeah.

[A]

That's cool. That makes me want to do it now.

[B]

Yeah. And that's the other part I really enjoyed was they also do scholarships.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

So they want you there. Like, it's not that expensive for six days to go. I won't say the price. Cause it might change a little bit next year depending on some of that. But it's actually really, really reasonable. What's it called? The Minnesota Men's Conference.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They do do a winter one, which is a shorter one, but their fall one's their big one.

[A]

Yeah. That sounds good, man. Went to a lot of places today. It's good. Yeah. And we're speaking mostly to men, but this includes women, too, I'd imagine, on multiple levels. There are probably many women's retreats out there where they do something similar, I would imagine. I just don't know what they are. But, yeah, for all the men listening, this is the work. This is what you can do. This is where you can go

[B]

and

[A]

you can make a code and you can live by it. And you're. What do you have six? What do we get through?

[B]

Oh, we got nine. Ten.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All nine.

[A]

Yeah. Got nine. So write them down, listen to them, integrate them as you will.

[B]

Create your own code from it.

[A]

Yeah. If people don't know how to do that and they want to hit you up and get guidance, where do they go?

[B]

Yeah, you can find my [e-mail]. make sure you have the in front of Rounded Warrior. You can check out the tenants. They'll be up there probably by the time we publish this. There should be a link that exists. But you can also just do slash tenants and I'll take you to that of what we talked about earlier today. You can check out my coaching page and we can look at group or one on one base things that are offered out there. Yeah. And that's some good ways to reach me. I'm also on Instagram and I also have my own podcast called the Grounded Warrior that you can find on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, pretty much all the platforms.

[A]

I'll link them all. And your Instagram is the same?

[B]

Yep, all the same.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Good.

[A]

That makes it easy. The grounded word. The. Yeah, the one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Brilliant. Love it. All right, we'll keep cooking on this. Of course. I know you're going to be back soon because that's just what's happening apparently.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See how you've evolved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I will see you up here in Oregon. That's. That's classified. Never mind. Forget you just heard that. That's classified information. We'll see you here on our podcast. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. I always enjoy coming up and visiting. Visiting you up in Oregon.

[A]

So, yeah, I love it when you come up here and. Yeah, check out your podcast because you have some cool guests.

[B]

Yeah. I also have you. It was a cool guest.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I've been on there once, haven't I? I forgot about that.

[B]

You talked about finding a. A good therapist for men, so no way.

[A]

I forgot about that.

[B]

That was a good one.

[A]

But yeah, check it out, man. Check it out. Yeah. All right, cool. All right, let's land the airplane. Until the next time, everyone be well. Any closing thoughts?

[B]

No, Just eight minutes. Thank you so much for having me again. It's always a pleasure to come back on and just speak with you and your audience and, you know, definitely get out there, guys, and find your own code itself.

[A]

Yes. Let's do it. Till the next we are out. Thank you.

[B]

Sa.