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- [00:02]
A
I was the poster child for anxious attachment. I had a really traumatic childhood, narcissistic father, people pleasing mother. And I learned very early on, like, I'm too much. You talk a lot. You're too fast. Like there was always a reason people didn't like me. And so I internalized that. I kept dating the emotionally unavailable, the narcissistic. And so I constantly was able to reaffirm my core beliefs. See, there's something wrong with me. How do I stop overthinking? How can I stop doom scrolling in the morning?
- [00:35]
B
How do I set boundaries with my parents?
- [00:37]
A
How can I cope with this grief? How can I keep myself from freaking out at the news? How do I be happy again?
- [00:42]
B
How can I heal from heartbreak? Welcome back to Mind if We Talk, where you get to be a fly on the wall for many therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. I'm your host, He Soo Jo. I'm a licensed therapist with over 10 years of experience providing individual and family therapy for our season finale. This week's question is how can I heal from heartbreak? Maybe you've seen the classic pop culture scene. A person who just got broken up with sits in their dimly lit bedroom alone and cries into their pillow. Sad music or painfully romantic movie plays in the background. Empty pints of ice cream or balled up chocolate wrappers scatter the floor. A 2021 study published in the Personal Relationships journal found that 82% of people have experienced heartbreak, most often from a romantic breakup. While it can feel deeply isolating, you are not alone. Today's guest is living proof of what life can look like on the other side of heartbreak. Not only has she dealt with it firsthand, she used her experience to kickstart her career and now coaches others going through the same thing. Sabrina Zohar is an entrepreneur and dating coach known for her podcast, the Sabrina Zohar Show. Sabrina uses her platform to share hard truths about relationships and empower others to date with dignity. Today we'll dive into her heartbreak history and how she learned to accept the love she deserves without compromising who she is. After my conversation with Sabrina, I'll be joined by a duo of fellow therapists, Vanessa Bennett and John Kim, who you may know as the Angry Therapist. Together we'll discuss some strategies for improving communication and conflict resolution in relationships, plus some advice on how to learn and grow from heartbreak. Let's get talking before we dive in. How are you actually doing today?
- [02:33]
A
I'm doing. I have been finding I've been dealing with some Blood sugar stuff. So I've been finding that in the mornings I've been navigating like a bit of a low moment, but as the day goes on, I'm starting to come back up. So I'm doing. I appreciate you asking, how are you?
- [02:47]
B
I'm doing well. I even appreciate your answer because it kind of speaks to the importance of us being in tune with what's going on with us being able to detect if something is a little bit different, such as a blood sugar level. So thanks for sharing that. I hope you figured that out and have energetic, good, solid mornings ahead of you.
- [03:04]
A
Me too.
- [03:06]
B
So a lot of your content feels like the relationship and dating advice that a lot of us wish we had when we were growing up, but maybe necessarily we didn't get. So when did you know you had something people needed to hear?
- [03:18]
A
My journey actually started with better help and I joined it when I was at my rock bottom. I was, I had nothing. I didn't know who to turn to. I was going through a terrible breakup. And the therapist, the first therapist I ever had, this was 2018, literally changed my life and taught me how to tap into inner child work, to meditate, to be with myself. We tried different modalities and it opened up a new world. And so that was a seven, almost eight year journey of discovering myself, understanding different healing techniques. And it brought us to 2022. I was supposed to be on Shark Tank. I was ready to be on set, I was on my way up and I. They sent me home last minute and so sorry, we can't fit you on. And I hit rock bottom, fell into a really, really deep depression, Realized in that moment I had more to offer and I had more to say. And so that's when I actually started creating content and realizing that a lot of the stuff that I was ingesting was, wasn't working. I was listening to all of the, if a guy doesn't text you every day, he doesn't like you or things. And you know, I have adhd, so my brain works a bit differently and I was navigating the landscape without the nuance and without the gray areas of the black and white and realizing I wasn't getting results. And so I turned to the Internet in late 2022 to just create content and say, I know there's other people out there that are struggling in the ways that I am. And that mushroomed into where we are today because I think creating a new echo chamber allows us to have a new thought process and thought pattern and that's been something really passionate about.
- [04:44]
B
You know, it's fascinating. A good number of my clients are coming to therapy because of a breakup or because a breakup has triggered something that makes them want to look inward. And I do think if folks are not looking inward after a breakup, they're missing a step here, especially if they're thinking about getting into another relationship or wanting that sometime in the future. So I'm glad that you shared that personal piece of your story. And it kind of is a testament to how much one can blossom out of the heartbreak.
- [05:13]
A
A hundred percent.
- [05:14]
B
You've described your journey into coaching through the Butterfly Effect and spoken about how several small events led up to a catalyzing breakup in 2022, which it sounds like you just alluded to here. Can you walk us through what happened during that time and what the factors were that led to everything that followed?
- [05:29]
A
Oh, absolutely. So Shark Tank happens in the summer of 2022. And I was literally like, I thought that I had put everything into that basket. I thought that was gonna save me. This was gonna make my career. Like, it was the opportunity of a life, the moment. Because I didn't have a social following. I didn't have anything that I could rely on, so I believed that this was it. And after that didn't go well. I met this guy, and we were dating, and that's when my dog got sick, and he went to the vet with, like, something small, and he had 10 days to live. And I was listening to everything on paper of, oh, he texts me every day. We have cute little nicknames. He's doing all the things, but he had no emotional depth to him when I needed him. When my dog was literally falling over on the street where I couldn't even, like, hold him up so that he could use the bathroom, and the guy's just standing there looking, like, numb, had nothing to give. Was when I realized, wait a minute. I need so much more to be with a partner than just this frivolity. I don't just need someone that texts me. I need someone that shows up when I need them. And I went to his house. We were supposed to go to San Diego to see my sister. I was living in LA at the time, and I already had been thinking of moving to San Diego, but at this point, I was kind of vacillating of what I wanted to do. And after Clem passed, I was kind of just done. I was like, I don't need to be here anymore. And I was supposed to go with the guy. And three Days before the trip, he breaks up with me for this. A very, very, very silly reason. And I didn't try to fight it. I didn't try to argue it. I just said, you got it. And I walked right out and I cried. I went to the car and I told my mom, I said, we're going to go anyways, and we're going to have a good trip. And when I was there, I decided to get back on Hinge because I had deleted it dating him. And I said, yeah, I'll try it, right? And I remember just being like, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, so I'm going to change the way I do this even more. I had already changed the way I dated leading up to this point. I started to set boundaries. I walked away when it felt scary. I was doing things that were different for my nervous system. But this time, I said, I'm really only going to focus on our quality, our depth. And lo and behold, I matched with, like, five or six people and my partner now being one of them. And I said, why not? I got nothing to lose. And I went on the date and just realized in that moment, I thought I was never gonna see him again after. And then we just kept dating. And it just made me realize, like, the small. The very small decisions, right? Saying, I'm not gonna let this guy who ends it with me ruin my trip. And I took my mom instead. Deciding in that moment, yeah, you never know who you can meet. Let me just download this app. It worked out in the sense because my partner and I would never have met and we would never have been in each other's circle, but we were really at the right place at the right time, and we were able to then pursue something with each other after.
- [07:52]
B
So for folks that have been on all these dates and are kind of feeling like they need to give up on the apps, because I hear this all the time. What is your advice to somebody in that position?
- [08:01]
A
I would say a couple of things. One, take the breaks anytime you need. There is nothing wrong with saying, I'm overwhelmed right now. I need a minute. I'm going to take a week. But what I would say is I feel like we have the pendulum is swung right. When the apps came out, we solely focused on them, and that was all. Nobody was even communicating with each other. Now the pendulum is going back where we are fetishizing. Oh. If I meet in person, it's a better connection than if I meet online. And to me, what I hear is, like, I hear a discomfort I understand that dating apps can be uncomfortable, and I know that you can spend a lot of time, but to me, what I hear is, do you trust yourself? Because if you trust yourself and you know that you have a healthier relationship with an app because it's another way of meeting people, like anything else in the world, then we can use it in a healthier way. And I also think trying and reestablishing your relationship to it. Right. My nervous system saw that as my savior. So of course I had high anxiety. I was constantly hypervigilant. I was spending all of my time on there because it was not. Dating, to me is an addition to not instead of. And for me, it was my life. And so when we have this little slot machine in our hands at all times, you're waiting for a dopamine hit with a message or a text or a new match, it's always, could this be the one? And it's a high that's really, really hard to maintain. And so my suggestion would also be to have boundaries, to really understand how you interact with this phone, with the app, and to take the breaks when they need, but to really, at the very least, do something that makes you uncomfortable, because that's how you can grow. Right? Right.
- [09:29]
B
Oh, my God. The intersectionality of what you just said. You know, we. We did a previous episode about doom scrolling. The multiple acts that we're engaging in when we grab the phone. Escapism, chasing dopamine, needing to be stimulated all the time. And then you. That stuff that we're doing with social media and just browsing the Internet, online shopping, all this kind of stuff, and then you try to stick it into an app where you're also trying to use it to potentially find your life partner. I can see that being a little bit chaotic there. Okay, so when you think back on your past relationships, what are some of the patterns and dynamics you've experienced with previous partners that put strain on those arrangements? How did you approach conflict, tough situations?
- [10:12]
A
Ugh. I was the poster child for anxious attachment. I was so riddled. I had a really traumatic childhood. Narcissistic father, people pleasing mother. And I learned very early on, like, I'm too much. You talk a lot. You're too fast. Like, there was always a reason people didn't like me, and so I internalized that. So when I was in the dating landscape, I was the. I was just doing repetition compulsion. I kept dating my dad. I kept dating the emotionally unavailable, the narcissistic, the gaslighting, the people that everything was A big deal. And so I constantly was able to reaffirm my core beliefs. See, there's something wrong with me. I knew it. I am the problem. I'm the issue. And that's actually why I started Better Health. That's why I started therapy, was because I genuinely believed it was all my fault. And that is why the relationship didn't work. And did I exhibit behavior that wasn't healthy? Oh, yeah. I'm not going to pretend I was incredibly anxious. Like, I couldn't sit still if a guy didn't text me. As a heterosexual woman, if. If the person I was dating didn't text me within five minutes, that was it. I was having a panic attack. I was crying. I was hyperventilating. I was caught. I would text a hundred times in a row if they didn't answ or I was just exhibiting this intense anxiety because I was so uncomfortable sitting in anything myself. And I genuinely believed that these men were gonna save me. And I realized very quickly they weren't. And once I changed that dynamic and worked on weight. I can regulate. I can go for a walk. I can reframe these thoughts. I can speak differently to myself. I can have compassion for myself. I started dating differently because I started getting really turned off instead of. Challenge accepted. Eh, no, thank you. I'd rather sleep tonight than waste my time on a date reminding me of.
- [11:49]
B
Something I've said very, very often. We generally accept the treatment that we think we deserve. And it sounds like the shift happened. Some shift happened for you in terms of what you knew to deserve and also how to regulate. That is such an important skill that we don't learn at school. I think. Actually, I've heard that they're teaching it in schools a little bit more now than they did maybe 30, 40 years ago.
- [12:09]
A
If they could add taxes and regulating to school, right? Like, just give us something that we can actually use. I wish somebody taught me how to regulate my emotions. Like, I grew up in a household where if you had a feeling, you exploded, right? Like, that was my dad. He would just scream. He would yell. He was very irate. So we learned you have to be big in order to be seen. No one ever taught me that you're allowed to be sad. You don't have to do anything about it. That changed it for me. Or, hey, you're allowed to say that. That doesn't work for you, and you don't need to be guilty for it. Like, wow, that was really, really empowering. And it's small little changes because when I genuinely believed that I was deserving and worthy of more because I acknowledged those parts of me I didn't try to get rid. Instead, I tried to understand them. I was then able to learn to live with them and not try to get rid of them.
- [12:54]
B
And in the past, you've opened up about having some trouble setting boundaries in previous relationships, and it sounds like it's kind of coming up in this reflection now. Would love to hear about some other relationship habits that you've worked on improving throughout the years.
- [13:08]
A
Boundaries was a big one. Learning to say no, that was really huge. Thinking of future me was really important. Learning how to communicate honestly. I used to just keep my mouth shut, don't say too much, don't rock the boat. And now my. My partner and I, we have weekly touch bases with each other. We have code words like, hey, to avoid resentment. I'd like to share. One of the big, big, big things I had to work on was to learn to respond and not react, to learn to pause and just be able to say, hey, I'm feeling really activated right now, but maybe that just means I need to go to the bathroom and like, wash my face with some cold water or grab a sour candy and just be for a second. And really, for me, understanding that my triggers don't need to be my partner's problem was a really, really big awareness for me that I. My feelings are valid and everything I'm feeling is real, but that doesn't mean they're facts, and that doesn't mean that my partner is trying to hurt me intentionally. And when I started to understand it's we, not me, we were able to then grow a relationship that has safety in it and cultivate that type of safety as opposed to it feeling like I'm a lone ranger on my island and I always have to be seen, heard. And for me, I think learning when to walk away was really important for me. I see both sides of the pendulum, and I'm curious your thoughts as well, professionally, what you see, we see either on Instagram or TikTok. Walk away from everything that doesn't feel good, right? Anything, any slight trigger or inconvenience. That's it. Walk away. They're terrible people. And then we have the other side of it of like, do anything you can to keep this relationship. And I think that there's a balance of understanding that, yeah, some things are on us and we can regulate and come back and maybe don't need to respond to it in that moment, but there are moments where we have to say too much has happened and it's okay that we let it fall apart and it's okay to say I learned from it and I'm going to walk away. I don't have to start. I don't have to try to take ashes from a building and try to rebuild when I can never do that with what's left.
- [14:53]
B
Right. There is a very, very fine line between distress tolerance, learning to regulate your emotions, and sitting with something that's uncomfortable to get to the other side, having a relationship be improved, getting closer to your partner, et cetera, and tolerating behavior that is harmful. And for those that haven't done as much self reflection, introspection, it can be very hard, if not impossible to detect the difference sometimes 100%.
- [15:21]
A
Because if you trust yourself that no matter what, you'll be okay, you'll learn that sitting in discomfort doesn't mean that you're at harm and that doesn't mean that we need to villainize everybody. But I see that black and white and I really try to create those strokes of gray.
- [15:33]
B
And where do you think that your ability to find those strokes of gray is stemming from? I know you mentioned you've been in therapy and you've done some reflective work on yourself, but I'm going to guess that other things have happened too.
- [15:46]
A
I think for me it's that I've had to prove myself wrong a lot. Is that I used to a hundred percent. Like when I met my partner and I was, no, he doesn't text me every day and it's like, and he was falling in love with me and he was amazing and he was showing up and we were both healing or the avoidance of the worst people. My partner's more avoidant leaning and he's in therapy and we're both working on our shit because I think for me it was about confronting and facing. Well, if he wanted to, he would. But if we look at it psychologically, is want how we determine things or is it about bandwidth and what I have to offer and things like that? And so I think it was mixed with personal experience with therapy, with doing. I'd done ketamine treatments, I've done different types of modalities of therapy. And I also think just my own personal development of having to grow up and realize, sure, I can hold onto these narratives and stories and core beliefs if I'd like, or I could set myself free and start to think things in a different way because it allowed me to be a lot lighter and freer if I could Just start to understand. Maybe there's a different perspective. Maybe my lived experience isn't the only one people are having. And it started to show and ring true when I would even do it with friends. You know, a friend in text me back for a day and I'd start to freak out and wonder if I did something wrong and realize, wait, that's me looking for a problem. But if this person's having an issue, we'll talk about it. Because we're two adults. And so being able to reframe, even for myself, has been a big game changer.
- [17:03]
B
You shared a little bit of information about your observations of behaviors from your parents. I am wondering if you feel there's anything from earliest relationships or childhood that you think informs your behavior now used to inform the behavior you're talking about.
- [17:19]
A
Yeah. Whether it be the relationships with my siblings, whether it be the relationship with my mom, my dad and I. Again, I'm sure you hear this all the time, right? When I went into therapy. No, no. I had a good childhood. Right. Everything was just. No, no. I couldn't fathom. I didn't need to acknowledge. I didn't have to say it was bad, which eventually I realized it wasn't great. But for a lot of people, it doesn't mean that we need to villainize our parents. But for me, what I had to understand was, where did I learn this from? Where did I learn that I'm too much? Oh, well, because when I'd cry or go to my dad, he would hit us. Okay, So I internalized that there must be something wrong with me. Where did I learn that my needs are too much? Well, I'd see my mom conform to my dad. And so that taught me that your boundaries are not a safe place to be. And so it was really important for me. Then I started to see, wow, friendship started to manifest like that. And then school and then work, and then it started to culminate because as a kid. Right. And this isn't about blaming our parents, but it's about understanding our nervous system and our brain shape around the experiences that we have. Right, right.
- [18:16]
B
And you've mentioned the words, and now you're talking about it again. Many ideas about how we relate coming from something called attachment theory. You've mentioned things like anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, also describing some things that can lead to another which is disorganized. And then, of course, we have the secure attachment. So folks out there that haven't heard any of this stuff, you're going to want to look this up, you're going to find a lot of information that might be insightful for you. It's clear you've learned about it from somewhere. How has this information been helpful for you?
- [18:47]
A
So attachment theory in a nutshell is how we attune to our caregivers and when we're early in development. But for me, I love attachment theory to understand myself and realize I'm not crazy. There's nothing wrong with me. This is just behavior I learned early on. But unfortunately, I feel like attachment theory, especially on TikTok, has been wildly misused. Kind of like, you know, you hear, if I hear narcissist one more time on a, on a, on a clip, that has nothing to do with it. But I think a lot of people, we use attachment styles to understand everyone else, right? My avoidant partner, it's like, no, no, no, that's not a tamago. This is a human being with emotions and feelings and a lived experience and closeness doesn't feel safe. And people try to do the, well, they're just bad people. They don't care. They're just mean. And when we give an a credence of, oh, well, if I have anxiety, that's okay, I'm at least expressing myself. And for me, I find that a lot of the attachment theory conversations are used either to self identify, which could be dangerous, right? I'm anxious. Well, no, I could change that. Because the beautiful thing about attachment styles and attachment theory is they're fluid, is that they are. You can heal through it. Like, I have earned secure, which means that I had an anxious attachment. That's how I learned to attach to my caregivers. That's how I learned to navigate through the world. But I learned new things and rewired my brain slightly so that I could come to a secure place. And I think that that has been lost a lot in the conversations when it comes to attachment styles.
- [20:08]
B
When I do introduce the idea of attachment theory to my clients in therapy, that question always comes up, of course, is like, so am I doomed to this kind of attachment style for the rest of my life? Am I always gonna be this anxiously avoidant person? It's like, no, you can find healing to get closer to what we idealize as the secure attachment. What were some of the first signs that you noticed that you were starting to heal?
- [20:33]
A
I think for me was when I realized I wasn't reacting and I was responding. And that was really huge for me when I realized, like, oh, I handled that differently than I ever would have. I remember the first time, I had this guy that I was crazy about. And when once I realized after like a month, I was like, oh, he's wasting my time. Okay, got it. And he was playing games and he was staying with me, and I. He came to my house and I had his suitcase ready, and I said, get out of my house. Like, I'm done. And he said, oh, you know, I'm emotionally unavailable and it's not you. And I said, oh, I know that. And I get off my porch and I remember walking in and sitting down and being like, this is not that bad. I was like, oh, I'm okay. Like, it sucks. And I'm so bummed. And I really wish that had worked. Like, I'm allowed to feel that, but I'm gonna go on with my life. And it just started to realize. And I started to realize that I wasn't reacting in the same ways. I was handling things differently. I was able to take a pause. And I was starting to come at things from a different place of compassion and understanding and not judgment and shame, which was a huge breakthrough for me because I'm the first person that can shame themselves to the moon, the stars, and the sun. And when I started to realize I'm just a human and that's okay was when I really realized I was growing.
- [21:38]
B
So I really loved the reflection of I'm reacting differently. And I imagine there's people out there that are like, but how did get there? Was it the therapy? What'd you do in therapy? Or was it something else that you were doing outside of your sessions? Like, what is it that leads to this kind of healing?
- [21:53]
A
Do you think it's a yes and right? I think, of course. Right. We need to have the therapy and the sessions and the. But those big kumbaya moments are not when healing happens. When they happen is your choices. When you start to see change is when you're upfront. Right? And so for me, it was understanding and being able to stop and say, oh, okay, in the sessions. But then what I did after that was I meditated every day so I could have mind to body. I started yoga so that I could feel in my body where things were happening. I started to journal and I did the things that people say, oh, come on. That's just the pop psychology. It's like, no, there's a reason that these things actually work. I started going on walks. I started learning about my nervous system. I started taking breath work and doing and just being for a second. I started allowing myself to cry and I Would set a timer and let myself cry for 10 minutes and then let it go off and say, okay, but I'm in the present moment. I made choices in between the sessions because you can have this big awareness, what are you going to do with it? Where is the action and the implementation? Not just the understanding and the intellectualization of it. It was in the choices, choices.
- [22:57]
B
This reminds me of a quote that I don't know where it comes from. Each choice that we make is a vote for the person that we will be. So it sounds like what you described is kind of up in that alley there.
- [23:08]
A
Well, I think a lot of us, we've been sold this false bill of good of like, if you do like people ask me every day, how do I get rid of anxiety? And it's like, oh, okay, that's like saying, how do I get rid of a limb? It's like, you want to try, you don't. You can't get rid of it because it's a part of you. But what I could do is I could learn to understand it, I can reparent it, I can show up differently, I could speak to myself differently. So that way I can handle these things like an adult and not try to get rid of something because what I resist is going to persist. And so I think that shift of just being able to stop and say, I'm allowed to feel this, you will feel the world of a difference better versus shaming, blaming, spiraling going into that. Because we think when we're doing that, we're dysregulated and we don't have a. You might not like the choice. You're right. You might not like that you have to block this person or that they're not right for you or that choosing yourself feels really scary. But either you choose you or you self abandon to be chosen. You're going to cry now or you'll cry later. You get to decide.
- [24:01]
B
Right? Self abandon to be chosen, which to me I'm interpreting that to be. Whoever is being chosen is not actually authentically you. And that's going to come to a head at some point eventually anyway. So how would you say having a career focused on dating and relationships has impacted your personal healing process?
- [24:20]
A
Boy, having a career that focuses on everything that I've been healing, I. My therapist a year ago was like, congratulations on choosing something that reaffirms all of your core beliefs. And I was like, thank you. I am healing through in this career because I put myself out there. I get attacked every day. I don't like your speech. And it's like, I have adhd, okay? I don't. What do you want from me? I have people that argue with me, that attack me, but then I have an incredible community of people that love me and are there for me. And so for me, while I'm doing this work, I have to also be very real. I'm not perfect. My partner and I have our stuff. We're not trying to pretend to be anything we're not. And I think for me, it's allowed me to step even more into who I actually am. Because if right now, my mom always said, I'd rather you not like me for who I am than who I'm pretending to be. And so now that's what I've embodied of. If you're not gonna like me, that's okay. Because a lot of people don't like authentic people because it's very, very confronting to them. And that's fine. You're not for me, but for the people that are. That's why I do this, because I love what. I love helping people and I love being able to actually implement the material in my own life and then show people what it looks like in real time to do this work and not again, feel alienated like I did for years because I didn't know where to go.
- [25:31]
B
Having a career focused on mental health, on wellness and all this stuff certainly has helped in my personal healing process too. So heartbreak, the thing that brought us to this conversation can feel all encompassing. It can feel sometimes like the road to healing or the road to. To not feeling this miserable anymore is very unclear. What would you say to anyone going through heartbreak right now? What do you think that they should know?
- [25:54]
A
What I think that they should know is that this can be sped up a little bit quicker if you start to actually look at what the story and narrative that you've created about this person is. This person triggered a lot of those insecurities within you. Where did I learn this from? Can I get curious to understand what is so impactful about this, but then really also allowing yourself to feel it that if you're sad, be sad, but then also really start to rein it in of I could be sad, but if it's been eight months since a one month breakup ended and I'm still hyper fixated and I'm looking at their Instagram and I can't move on from things and I'm well, then it's no longer about them. It's about the pedestal that you've put them on and what they represent to you. Because getting them would mean what about you? And the fact that it didn't work says what about you? And so I encourage anyone that's hurting right now to honor it, to feel it, to allow the pain, but don't allow it to take over. Because you get to make choices now. You get to get curious about what's really coming up for you. Is it about them or is it about what this means about you? Start to weigh that out.
- [26:51]
B
Mic drop. Really appreciate that insight and thank you so much, Sabrina, for your time.
- [26:55]
A
Thank you for having me and thank you guys for listening. I would just impart to everybody like, you're not broken. There's nothing to fix. It's just about understanding what's really under the hood. And so if we can start to reframe things and actually have a little bit more compassion, then you'll stop doing what other people did to you growing up and maybe you can now actually live the life that you did to deserve.
- [27:14]
B
This is an ad for BetterHelp. I hope you're enjoying this episode as much as I am. We've heard about how heartbreak can come with emotions that make us feel uncomfortable. But if we sit with those feelings and acknowledge them, we can learn valuable lessons about ourselves. And remember these feelings don't have to last forever. Therapy can help support you in your healing journey and offer tools to form healthy relationships. So give it a try. Visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off your first month, that's betterhelp.com mindifwetralk so much came up in my conversation with Sabrina. Her story is a reminder that we are not defined or beholden to our past. Past relationships, past traumas, past behaviors. Instead of shying away from conflict and discomfort or staying in situations that affirm our negative self perception, we can look inward and learn about ourselves. In the wake of heartbreak is an opportunity for growth, and if you accept that opportunity, you might end up better off than you were before. So let's dive deeper and explore some of these themes. Joining me now are licensed marriage and family therapists Vanessa Bennett and John Kim. Vanessa and John are both work and life partners. Their books Single on Purpose, It's Not Me, it's yous and the Motherhood Myth and their podcasts, the Angry Therapist and Cheaper Than Therapy all focus on navigating love and relationships in the modern era era. Together we discuss attachment theory, dating apps, and our best advice for healing from heartbreak. Let's get into it. You two are quite well Known Now, I think when it comes to talking about relationships, what we can learn from them, how to move through them, how to get to another one. And, you know, in that process, figuring yourself out before trying to figure somebody else, a lot of people are relying on this person or this other to be a source of entertainment, companionship, dopamine, feelings of secure self worth, things that we think that we can get from somebody else. Sabrina described herself as the poster child for anxious attachment, which I'm gonna guess we've actually heard other people say that too. She spoke about how the way she was raised contributed to this attachment style and impacted her dating life. First, can you explain what attachment theory is and break down the common attachment style?
- [29:37]
C
So Vanessa is avoidantly attached or swings that way. I swing toward anxiously attached. Everyone's trying to swim towards securely attached. Attachment styles come from our earliest attachments in childhood. And so one of the revelations I even had as a 52 year old was realizing how much mom was detached from me. And I grew up in a Korean family where mom gave me everything, skateboards, Levi's, but she was never home. And I had this weird revelation on a medicine journey recently that my mom has never hugged me. And then I was thinking to myself, I wonder how much of that wound, that detachment has gotten me to anxiously want to attach. You know, I wonder if her. How much of her not hugging me makes me grab Vanessa's leg. You know, so just using that as a story, attachments that happened early as childhood and how that manifests in adulthood.
- [30:30]
A
Yeah.
- [30:31]
D
I also want to say there is a fourth style which is disorganized, where people kind of swing between the two. And I'll tell you in my. I've kind of come to understand that I actually would classify most of us as disorganized, not actually as one or the other, only because attachment's not fixed. So I have a hard time with pop psychology saying like, I am anxious, I am avoidant. Right. It doesn't. It's not fixed like that. It really depends on the interaction with the other person. So, for example, with my relationship with John, I can swing more avoidant. But in my relationship with my best friend, who is way more avoidant leaning than I am, I tend to be more anxious. So it really just depends on the relationship that we're talking about. And I think it actually does us a disservice to kind of box ourselves into one thing. And it also does the other person a disservice to box ourselves into one thing.
- [31:20]
A
Yeah.
- [31:20]
B
And I'm glad you brought that up, vanessa. Cause I 100% agree with you. I've had clients come to me, having done the research, seeing things on TikTok about their anxious attachment style or avoidant and how their partner is avoidant and they wanna talk about all these. And they kind of speak from a frame of this is who I am. This is my personality. It is like set in stone forever. And so I'm hesitant to even talk about attachment style at great length with many clients without having some building context of what you said. It's fluid, it can morph, it can look different depending on who the other is.
- [31:54]
C
Also the same thing with love languages. This is who I am. I am only, you know, acts of service or I am only words of affirmation. And I think it puts us, you know, it gives us an excuse to not really stretch is what it does. So sure.
- [32:07]
D
I also think it gives us an excuse whether we're talking love languages, attachment styles, personality structures. Oh, they're a narcissist. I'm a, you know, whatever we're talking about. I think it gets us into this slippery slope of needing somebody else to be different for us to feel better about ourselves, which I could not rail against harder.
- [32:26]
B
Oh, you are speaking to so many things beyond attachment love languages. So Sabrina did share that her attachment style, which she did feel that anxious is the one that resonates for her. She said it manifests in various ways. One example is that she panics when a partner or friend wouldn't text back. This is, I think prior to some of the self work that she's done in today's digital era, it's easier than ever to be connected to others. We're connected all the time, as you both know. But this can bring forth anxieties as well. What advice do you have for people who are anxiously attached in this way?
- [32:58]
C
Yeah, I've been like that most of my life. And instead of seeing myself being anxiously attached, I just told myself I was a hopeless romantic. Right. I just said that, oh, this is how I am. This. I'm wired. I'm just more romantic than you. I just put love on a higher shelf than you. If I texted you or if I wrote you a love note or if I was quote unquote, lovey dovey to you. And I didn't get that back. If you didn't hit the ball back then I felt like, oh, they don't love me, they don't care about me. And then it's my own anxiety that back then I Didn't know how to work through. Now I do more of that. Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I texted Vanessa, hey, want to get intimate today? She didn't respond. Zero. Yes, I did. I did. Hold on, hold on. I have proof of that, too.
- [33:37]
D
I actually don't remember this.
- [33:38]
C
And you know what the old John Kim would be like? Oh, she's ignoring me. Oh, I'm being vulnerable. Oh, she didn't hold that space. She doesn't. It must be my hair. Oh, my God. It didn't like, I knew she was busy. She probably didn't see it. And so the work for me was to sit with myself, not blame her, not attack her, not point fingers, but to work on my own anxiety and work through her.
- [34:01]
A
It.
- [34:01]
C
And then also give her the benefit of the doubt. You know, she doesn't have to text you back in two seconds.
- [34:06]
D
So I think that this is actually a really good example because genuinely, I have friends here visiting this week.
- [34:12]
C
Right.
- [34:12]
D
And so in between work, I'm with my friend. She's got her daughter, two kids here. Like, it's very busy. Right. Genuinely did not know that he had texted me that yesterday. Probably got lost. The reason why I think this is a good example is cause whether we're talking about romantic relationships or friendships or whatever we're talking about, right. John for sure, has a tendency to personalize even when friends don't text him back immediately. Right. And he's gotten better with it, but he still struggles with that. And I am so on the opposite, where I'm like, well, there'll be two weeks where I'll forget to text somebody back because, you know, I'm a mom of a young kid, or I'm busy, or my brain just isn't there. And so I would want somebody to give me the same grace that I then give to other people. So for me, it's a lot easier to depersonalize it. But I think that's something that all of us can get a little better at doing, which is remind ourselves that it's never about about you. It's about the person. It's not about you. And so I think a lot of us personalize these things way more than we should.
- [35:11]
C
But for the anxiously attached, it's much harder. You're asking us to lift heavier.
- [35:16]
D
Yes. Well, in this example, that is the heavier lift, for sure.
- [35:19]
C
Right? Yeah.
- [35:20]
B
Anxious, avoidant, disorganized, whatever it is, people can all benefit from a very nice acronym that comes, I think, originally from dbt for people that need some kind of practical tip here. Stop. Observe. This is what John was describing doing. Observing the possibility that, oh, she might be busy, you know, and then p proceeding mindfully, which in some cases is letting it go and moving on and doing something else and not being so obsessed with whether somebody's texting you back or not. So Sabrina described her father as having narcissistic traits, and she found herself dating a bunch of people that apparently behaved similar to him. Those relationships, she said, reaffirmed a belief that there was something wrong with her. Is it common to find partners that have qualities or parents had or get into romantic relationships that affirm negative self talk?
- [36:05]
C
Yeah. I think this has to do with internalization. Right. Like the theme that Vanessa has struggled with. And we wrote it in our book. It's not me, it's yous is not being enough believing or having a false belief that you're not enough. And because you're not enough, you overextending yourself. For me, it would be not feeling desired.
- [36:24]
D
So we can go back again to earliest imprints. Right, Right. And how this shows up so on the opposite side of John. I had a mother who was very young and single parenting and was all consum so very early on in her self awareness journey, if you will. Right. So it was all about her all the time. She took up all the space. The emotions were so big. There wasn't a lot of room for anybody else's emotions. And also she was kind of in me and in my space all the time. Right. So we can see how that would impact me to be a little bit more of what we were saying earlier.
- [36:59]
A
Avoidant. Right.
- [37:01]
D
And so what I found in my getting out there and dating was this idea of not being enough. I started to. To consistently date people who did reinforce that belief that I wasn't enough. Because like my mom, they always wanted more of me, more from me. It was never enough for them. No matter what I did, it never felt like it was enough for them. It was like this kind of bucket with a hole in it. Right. And I was the one constantly trying to fill that bucket. And so I do believe, though, that we will continue to see these patterns and date these types of people. There's a reason for that. Right. That is the mirror. That is the wounding to be healed by us, not by anybody else, but by us.
- [37:43]
A
Right.
- [37:44]
D
So in November actually of last year, John and I, like, officially got married. And I actually said to him in our, like, air quote vows, when we were like speaking in front of people, I said, it's Actually through you and through our relationship that I actually truly, truly believe that I'm enough now. And it's not actually something that John did. Like, he didn't make me feel like enough. As a matter of fact, our dynamic was a consistent mirror and it made me feel like I wasn't enough because of the anxious avoidant dance that we've got going on. But it was through so much work around that dance that I was able to come home to myself and say, oh, actually, no, no, no, this actually isn't about me. Right? Like, I am enough. But I had to look at our relationship differently in order to get to that place. I stopped seeking him to show me and tell me and prove to me that I was enough and started just realizing it was a mirror back to me for me to come home to the realization that I was enough. If I. That makes sense.
- [38:40]
B
I'm hearing what you kind of did in your own process to break out of this cycle. I guess. How can someone that's not a therapist begin to break out of that cycle of dating partners who reinforce negative aspects of their lives?
- [38:52]
D
I think even going back to the STOP acronym you gave. Right. I think. Or even going back to what we were talking about, about depersonalizing, I think so much of this is actually our ability to pull ourselves out of the situation 30,000 foot. Observe it objectively. Be the anthropologist of yourself, which is what I always say, like, there is no judgment here. We're not. We're just watching. We're paying attention. We're noticing patterns and we're starting to pay attention to, oh, when I'm around this person, I feel this way, or when I'm in this dynamic, this is what comes up. Right. And then we can start questioning the thoughts. Is that fact. Because a lot of us believe that our thoughts are truth.
- [39:28]
A
Right.
- [39:28]
D
A lot of us also believe that our feelings are truth. They're valid. It doesn't mean it's truth. So I think a bit of this work has to come from cultivating objects, objectivity, and to pull yourself out of it and say, oh, this is interesting. Okay, now, if I shift in this way, what changes? If I pivot in this way, what changes? And start to experiment within a relational dynamic. And in my experience personally, but also with my clients, that's led to some really big revelations. And also it's empowering because you are the one doing that work. You're not expecting somebody else to.
- [40:04]
C
And then the other one I think is huge. I talk about this a lot, is convincing, not your Mind, but your body. Body, Right. The whole idea of a corrective experience, the whole idea of rewiring. And it doesn't have to be through a romantic love. If you surround yourself with people in general, so whether it's friendships or whoever who actually champion your enoughness or don't try to dim your light, turn you down, then the somatic, the comfort that you are giving yourself is, oh, actually that is a false belief. Because these people, people believe that I'm enough and they're creating space for me to be turned up. Right. And then that becomes a standard, and then hopefully that ripples into who you choose to love. I think you can slowly start to rewire and dissolve the false belief.
- [40:47]
A
Yeah.
- [40:48]
B
I'm hearing if one does things in a regular basis to make sure that their needs are taken care of, they're fulfilled, and they have love in their lives, it may not have to feel like such a desperation to get all that stuff from a partner. That's right. Okay, so in 2025, we can't really talk about dating without mentioning dating apps. I think the apps have become very ubiquitous. A lot of people out there feel like it's maybe one of the only ways that they can meet people, depending on circumstances of where they live, et cetera. But I do think most of us could agree that their rise in availability, popularity, it's added a complexity to dating that we may not have really seen maybe 10, 20 years ago. And so Sabrina said that dating, and I'm gonna guess she was alluding to using these apps used to consume her life. She relied on these dating apps not just to find somebody, but in a moment, get a dopamine hit. It's about using an app on your phone to feel kind of good, escapism, whatever. And she said that she ended up spending a lot of time on these apps, probably more than needed to find somebody because probably trying to fulfill some other kind of need or deprivation of dopamine. So how can we reframe the purpose of dating and romantic partnership in lives so that it's something additive instead of something to derive our whole happiness from?
- [42:06]
C
I have definitely. I can relate to Sabrina all the stretches of singlehood finding worth through likes and people responding to your DMs and stuff. I get the dopamine hit. Still not on dating apps, but social.
- [42:19]
D
Media, we all do.
- [42:20]
C
You know, the numbers on posts, you know, comments and all that. So dating, I always say use the apps with the, you know, those small spoons they give you at the ice cream shop to take Taste for cycles. Right. Instead of actually buying the sundae, you have to use dating apps when you feel good about yourself. If you're not feeling good about yourself and then you come home and you see who swiped on you and all this, I think it could be dangerous. I think it could compound your insecurities. Right. But if you feel good about yourself and if you're like dating to meet people, not necessarily to find the one, and you're being social, you have a life and you're happy, then dating apps can be like the taster spoons. Like, just use a really small spoon and don't put so much weight on it that it is a. A tool, not a means to find the one.
- [43:07]
D
Yeah. From my observation, I think because my background is in depth psychology, I'm constantly in a state of looking at the collective. I'm actually starting to see a real tide shift in the collective around, I think, dating as a whole. Dating apps. I'm excited actually for this next kind of wave of people to start to come back to themselves and stop outsourcing so much of our validation. Right. I use this analogy a lot, which is the romantic relationship or the having children or the perfect job or whatever this thing is, this external validation thing is that we're seeking should be the cherry on the sundae. It shouldn't be the Sunday I'm the sundae. Right. I make my life delicious and amazing and fulfilling and satisfying. Cherry can be a great topping, but it's not necessary for it to be delicious. And I think that the more we look at any of those external kind of components to life as that, the more we start to look inward and say, well, I have to make sure that, like, I love my life. I love my life so much that if I don't meet somebody, of course, let's acknowledge the grief. Of course. Right. Let's not minimize it. But it's not going to cripple me to the point of not being able to enjoy my life. Right. Because I've built a life that I love so much that that is a cherry.
- [44:28]
B
Sabrina came to talk about transformations that she's had in her life. And one of the things that she described was having gone through this heartbreak, trauma, journey, understanding, acknowledging her feelings rather than trying to get rid of them, and I think trying to change yourself or remove the parts of ourselves that we view as bad as a common experience for lots of people both in and out of relationships. Is this something you've noticed? And what's the line between compromise and completely reinventing Yourself.
- [44:55]
D
Hmm.
- [44:56]
B
Effy?
- [44:57]
D
Well, you have a saying about this.
- [44:58]
C
I have a lot of little shot glass sayings. One of them is that relationships are about compromise, but not compromise of self. I think if you find yourself compromising yourself, right, in a relationship for too long, that's a huge sign that something is not working. And also I feel like if that's happening, the relationship is lopsided and you're not bringing a lot to the table because you're probably bringing a very pseudo version of you instead of your solid self. Right. Compromise, but not compromising self for too long, I think brings the plane down eventually.
- [45:29]
A
Yeah.
- [45:29]
D
I feel like this idea of changing who I am, transformation, I mean, I think for, I guess there's two things that are coming up for me. Number one, I think another change that I'm championing, but also seeing a lot more is this looking at longevity as some sort of measure of success, right. Of any relationship, whether romantic, friend, anything. And instead just looking at the relationship itself and saying, was it fulfilling? And then when that, when it stops being a fit, can we both just acknowledge that it's not a fit instead of personalizing it making the other person a bad person? You know, we have to hate each other's guts before we let go of this thing and it's gotta be a big blowup. So I think there's a little bit of that happening, which I want us to continue leaning into. Right. Because we have to all acknowledge that historically especially women didn't have the option to leave relationships. We couldn't survive without them. So it would be remiss to not acknowledge that, great, your grandparents have been married for 50, 60 years, but were they actually happy and fulfilled or have they hated each other for 20 years and they haven't touched each other in 30? Right. So I'm not one to say I don't celebrate a 50 year anniversary when somebody hates each other. I would actually so much rather celebrate our good friends who got a divorce when their child was two and they're the best of friends and they co parent beautifully together and we all still hang out and it's so loving. Right. And I do think that is changing culturally. So I guess my point in saying that in this idea of transformation is we have to stop like holding it against the person that they're evolving and growing and changing. And I think that's something I also see, right. Evolution, hopefully is going to continue to happen until the day we die. Right. And sometimes we don't evolve in the same way. And can that be okay.
- [47:17]
B
Just like you said, we change, our partners change, some things about us stay the same. And when you're committing to be in a committed relationship, I think you're choosing to take this on, to kind of wade through, navigate each other's changes your own. Sabrina emphasized how important it was for her to set boundaries in her relationships. It sounds like she did this by learning how to communicate honestly. Part of communicating honestly is learning how to be honest with yourself. She went from harboring resentment, avoiding conflict, which so many of us do, to now being pretty direct and having weekly check ins with her current partner. So what are some of your best tips for mitigating conflict and establishing a comfortable, consistent line of communication in romantic relationships?
- [47:59]
C
Well, one thing is me realizing that the value is always going to be on the repair, not the rupture. You're going to have have ruptures daily or month. There's going to be all different sizes of ruptures when it comes to conflict. But I love the idea that it's all about the repair. It's not about how many times you fight, it's about how we fight. So if you have the ability to repair ruptures, then that, like to me that's probably, I would say it's almost number one or number two on if a relationship's going to last. If you don't have the ability to do that, it's just a matter of time, you know, that the, the wings fall.
- [48:34]
D
I, I will say that I resonate with where Sabrina's coming from in that I am similar or I have been at least historically in my life. Right. Where I tend to not speak up, I tend to avoid conflict. Right. Trying to keep things copacetic and not rock the boat. I will say over time with John and I, it's so much of it has actually been around us trying to, we always say this, right? This is his term, like trying to understand before trying to be understood. So a lot of our evolution and growth and the way that we communicate and ARG has been in understanding who the other person is and respecting them for that. Not beating them up for not being who we are or who we want them to be. Right. And so what does that look like? Well, John historically has been kind of the bulldozer. His anxiety in a conflict manifests in talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, Right? And for me, my anxiety manifests in, I check out, I dissociate, I leave my body. Right. And so we've had to do a lot of work on him having awareness of, oh, she's not even here anymore. Right. But she has left the building.
- [49:39]
A
Right.
- [49:40]
D
And acknowledging that and noticing that, like, oh, I gotta slow down. I gotta take a breath. I gotta check in with her. Because it's gonna help my cause, right. If I do, because otherwise nothing's gonna happen. And then for me, on the flip side of that, I have to do my work around staying in my body. I have to do my work around staying present. I have to do my work around advocacy for myself and saying, hey, I'm flooded. I need to take a break. I can't have this conversation with you right now. Right. And so it's been a dance, but I think that is part of, again, whether we're friendship or even romantic relationship, acknowledging this is who the other person is. How do I engage with them in a way that feels honest to myself, but also looks at them and says, this is who they are. Can we find some kind of middle ground in our communication styles? I think has been really helpful for us.
- [50:26]
C
Sometimes it's just nicer just to have a go to, I need to shut up. Or she might be, I need to stay. I need to stay emotional. I need to be present. I need to listen. And even those things, as we remind ourselves, are super beneficial when we're heated and activated and innovative to fight.
- [50:39]
B
You know, these things, I need to shut up. She needs to stay. As anchors, it sounds like in order to identify what those anchors are, you gotta get to know yourself. You gotta get to know your partner and have some difficult conversations leading up to that and knowing that we're gonna continue having difficult conversations.
- [50:55]
A
That's right.
- [50:56]
B
Sometimes even in the best relationships, the ones that have done the work, the ones that are consistently checking in in this way, heartbreak still happens. It just happens sometimes. And I think both of you have written about this quite extensively too. Heartbreak can be some kind of lear. What can heartbreak teach us about ourselves and others?
- [51:14]
D
Yeah. Being able to recognize that each one of these moments of whether it's a rupture or whether it's discomfort or whether it's a disappointment or whatever.
- [51:22]
A
Right.
- [51:22]
D
Which we're gonna all experience over and over again in relationships. They're all cumulative and they're adding to our own ability to see ourselves, how we show up in relationships, to observe the other person. Right. And if we can keep doing that and doing our best to do it without judgment, but more as an observation, practice, I think. I think there's so much to learn and so much growth to be had, but it's hard. You know, it's a daily practice.
- [51:46]
B
So I do have a final question for both of you. For someone who is in the throes of heartbreak right now, what are some first steps they can take toward healing?
- [51:54]
C
For me, it's out of your house, out of your head. I spent most of my early days post all my expired relationships to get out of the house and get out of my head. What that looks like can be different for me was motorcycle CrossFit, you know, other things, taking myself to, to the movies, the dinner dates, all that stuff. But it's usually in our house and then in our heads, the most dangerous place to be, where we start to sink and can't get outta that quicksand.
- [52:17]
D
You know, I like that because it, what it reminds me of too is like whether romantic or whether like we lost our house in the fires, like whatever that heartbreak looks like, right, Like a huge transition or explosion in your life. I think there's a delicate balance between. We do have to actually distract ourselves sometimes and give ourselves ourselves some space to be out of it. I think it's okay sometimes to do what John's saying, which is get out of your house, get out of your head. So long as you're then maybe baking in time to come back to yourself. So long as you're baking in, you know, a yoga class every week where you actually get out of your head and you drop into your body and you feel the emotions. Right. Allowing yourself that kind of sacred space to be in it is I think really important too.
- [52:58]
B
Yeah. Love that. Out of your house, at of your head, come back to yourself. And for me, I think it's important for people to remember. Eat, sleep, exercise, shower.
- [53:10]
C
Yeah, the foundation. Back to the basics.
- [53:11]
D
Back to the basics.
- [53:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:15]
B
We hope you've enjoyed this season of Mind if We Talk. I want to give a big thank you to Better Help for their passion behind this project and for giving us a platform to champion the well being in all of us. Mind if we Talk is produced by Acast Creation Creative Studios in collaboration with BetterHelp and hosted by me, Jesu Jo. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and share with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life and remember your happiness matters. Mind if we Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.