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- [00:03]
Jane Marie
I have this slight insecurity all the time about I'm not actually qualified. I have that nightmare that I never graduated high school and even college. I have this nightmare that I never finished college or that someone's gonna find out that I don't have the qualifications for this job, and I'm like a total fraud. So it's like in the back of my head all the time that I'm going to get found out one of these days. I just remember the day I quit. It was like my third high school. I stood up, I grabbed my bags, I went to the counselor's office, and I was like, I'm out of here. I can't do this anymore. She said, that makes sense that you want to drop out. Like, you always looked strange carrying around a hall pass or a bathroom pass. And I was like, what is that supposed to mean? How do I stop overthinking? How can I stop doom scrolling in the morning? How do I set boundaries with my parents?
- [01:05]
Hesu Jo
How can I cope with this grief?
- [01:06]
Dr. Valerie Young
How can I keep myself from freaking.
- [01:08]
Jane Marie
Out at the news?
- [01:08]
Dr. Valerie Young
How do I be happy again?
- [01:11]
Hesu Jo
How can I overcome imposter syndrome?
- [01:14]
Dr. Valerie Young
This is Mind if we Talk? Where you get to be a fly on the wall for mini therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. I'm your host, Hesu Jo, a licensed therapist with over 10 years of experience providing individual and family therapy. I've learned a thing or two about human behavior, and I've made it my mission to help demystify therapy, because sometimes it's hard to take that first step. Each episode has two parts. First, I sit down with a podcaster, influencer, or celebrity to talk through challenging topics we all face. Then, another mental health expert and I break down that mini therapy session. Together, we'll dig into the coping skills and techniques that will hopefully help everyone learn to navigate these struggles and make life a little bit easier. We've got quite the mix of guests this season, and I hope you're going to love it. First things first, this week's question. How do I overcome imposter syndrome? It's something so many of us experience, but we rarely talk about it. Imposter syndrome can creep in, whether we're starting a new job, chasing a creative dream, or even just trying to be good at something we care about. Imposter syndrome has a way of making us feel like we're the only ones who haven't figured it out. Like we're faking it when everybody else seems to know exactly what they're doing. But actually, studies suggest that up to 70% of people will feel like an imposter at some point in their lives. That means most of us are quietly carrying around self doubt, anxiety, a fear of being found out, even when there's plenty of evidence that most of us are doing just fine. So if this sounds familiar to you, you are not alone and you're not failing. In fact, that nagging voice in your head might just be a sign that you care, that you're growing, that you're human. Imposter syndrome is deeply personal, but it's also shaped by the systems we live and work within. Expectations around success, perfectionism, identity, and belonging. Today, we're going to explore it from the inside out. I'm joined by a guest who's ready to go there with me. Jane Marie. Jane is a Peabody and Emmy Award winning journalist and podcast host of the Dream. She's worked on huge shows like this American Life, co founded the production company Little Everywhere, and told incredibly intimate, moving stories. Even with all that success, she's still wrestled with imposter syndrome. In our conversation, Jane opens up about when these feelings started, how they've shifted over time, and what she's learned about managing them. If you've ever felt like you're not enough, no matter how much you've done, you'll probably recognize a lot of what she shares. Let's get talking. Hi, Jane.
- [03:55]
Jane Marie
Hi, it's great to see you again. Nice to see you too.
- [03:58]
Dr. Valerie Young
So on a recent episode of your podcast called Ambition Monster, you spoke about coming into the world of media after growing up in a small town and coming from a working class background. So I am wondering, what was that culture shock like and what did you do to navigate it?
- [04:15]
Jane Marie
The high school I finished at was rural and having like dropped out of high school and kind of struggled through all of that. I have this like slight insecurity about I'm not actually qualified. And I have that nightmare all the time that I never graduated high school. Cause I did drop out and I eventually finished and even college. I have like this nightmare that I never finished college or that like someone's gonna find out that I don't have the qualifications for this job and I'm like a total fraud. And so it's kind of just like in the back of my head all the time that I'm gonna get found out one of these days. So in a professional setting, I feel like I kind of fumbled my way through figuring out how to present myself. It was hard to join in on a lot of water cooler talk because I didn't have the. The references that my coworkers had in a lot of my early jobs. Like, I hadn't read the books that everybody had read. And I, you know, I didn't go to the colleges they went to. I didn't know anything about, like, the northeast or Ivy Leagues or, you know, I'm from Michigan, and not that I haven't traveled, but they just came from a different, more, you know, worldly world than I was in.
- [05:33]
Dr. Valerie Young
So there sounds like there's like a bit of a cultural zeitgeist and you were just outside of it. Water cooler talk is a very office culture type of concept. And some people might not know what it is, especially people like you, that came from a certain background. You know, in the office, there's a water cooler. People convene here because they need a drink, they're parched, whatever it is. And that's where people get into the casual conversation that has generally not much to do with the job. You also mentioned feeling like maybe your cultural knowledge was not on par with your work peers. So did you ever feel like you had to perform a certain way or prove yourself to become indispensable in your working places?
- [06:12]
Jane Marie
Yeah, all I did was just work too much or, you know, be the person that would like, pick up the slack, if there was any slack, and try to be chipper and willing in order to try to make myself indispensable. Learn everything, carry a notebook around, write down everything everybody's saying, and try to be really good at the technical stuff. Learning that and also stepping up when anybody needed help. You know those movies where, like, a girl's trying to get a job at a fashion magazine or something, and she's just like, hands are full of stuff, you know, she's like fumbling around and chasing around the boss? That's kind of what I was doing.
- [06:47]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yeah, it's a high pressure, high stress place. Oftentimes in these types of settings, you're starting at a certain part of the hierarchy of the people that work there. And it could be that people are just trying to get their foot in the door of a certain industry. So like you said, you're just picking up the slack, like, looking for different odd jobs you could be doing.
- [07:10]
Jane Marie
I also knew there were a thousand people in line behind me for this job who were more culturally, like, prepared and more highly educated. And so I've always felt that way, though, in all of my jobs. Like, there's somebody waiting to take my job who might be Better at it. And so I need to really perform to make sure that I maintain my position because I like going for highly covetable jobs. I feel ambitious in that way. But yeah, there's always that fear of somebody's right there waiting in the wings.
- [07:45]
Dr. Valerie Young
You're kind of describing that experience that some of us have. When you're in a place and you start feeling like maybe you don't belong there, maybe the people are going to find out. And some people might have heard of the phrase imposter syndrome. And it sounds like your early experience not having finished high school initially might have been one of the sources of these feelings for you. And imposter syndrome is something actually a lot of high achieving, creative people face. So I was curious if you could have been able to trace the source of the feeling. Do you feel like it was that or do you think that there are other moments from your upbringing?
- [08:22]
Jane Marie
I think it's from my upbringing. I think also in the environment I was raised in, it was more important that I was capable than that I was fulfilling some sort of dream. It was more like, you should be able to do everything. My parents, my father especially, was very much a perfectionist. And like, I would get in trouble for a minuses because he would say, like, if anyone can get like a straight A report card, it should be you. Why aren't you working harder? And you know the same thing, like in sports. And he was very young, and I think he had imposter syndrome as well and was kind of like playing it out through my achievements.
- [09:02]
Dr. Valerie Young
Like, if you do better, then he shows that he's a good father.
- [09:07]
Jane Marie
That's right. And I was also the oldest daughter, which is another thing.
- [09:11]
Dr. Valerie Young
It's often the third parent, the parentified.
- [09:14]
Jane Marie
Child, as they say. Exactly. So my parents got divorced when I was like 14 and we moved. My mom and the kids moved away. And it was a very tumultuous custody situation. And I changed schools a lot growing up for all different reasons. I went to four different high schools.
- [09:34]
Dr. Valerie Young
Wow.
- [09:34]
Jane Marie
Right. So that creates like, again, the learning curve thing every single time I'm put into a new environment. And they were all very different schools, like different sizes and different communities. Also, since I didn't have both of my parents, like, on me all the time, I stopped caring a little bit. You know, it was kind of like, if I'm gonna get in trouble anymore.
- [09:55]
Dr. Valerie Young
What does it matter what I do?
- [09:56]
Jane Marie
Yeah, I'll take a D, whatever. And I just remember the day I quit. It was like my third high school But I'm in my American history class and reading the textbook. They're mostly, like, about patriotism and stuff, and they're pretty poorly written. And I was just getting really frustrated with this one section that we were talking about. I don't know what got into me, but I stood up, I grabbed my bags, I went to the counselor's office, and I was like, I'm outta here. I can't do this anymore. She said, oh, yeah, that makes sense that you want to drop out. Like, you always looked strange carrying around a hall pass or a bathroom pass.
- [10:29]
Dr. Valerie Young
What?
- [10:29]
Jane Marie
And I was like, what is that supposed to mean? But it really reminded me of the feeling of being like, again, the parentified child. Like, having the adults around me expect so much or kind of treat me like I was way more mature than I actually was. Just kind of like not having the childhood that a lot of my friends had. And then, you know, also, once my parents got divorced, I was kind of on my own a lot. Like, I wasn't coddled at all. And I kind of wish I had been a little bit more, you know. And so that was, like, even by my counselor, had I gone to that counselor? And she said, come here, let me give you a hug. It's going to be okay. Let's get you back in your classroom. You know, I just didn't have those kind of adults around me. And it makes me sad to think of that. And I'm trying to fix that with my daughter. But even at the time, it made me feel really lonely. Like, oh, I am going to have to figure this all out by myself.
- [11:26]
Dr. Valerie Young
I'm hearing that little Jane could have used a soft, nurturing, supportive, empowering adult figure.
- [11:35]
Jane Marie
That's right.
- [11:36]
Dr. Valerie Young
And instead, what little Jane maybe was getting was adults that saw a little adult with capabilities that they wanted to push, and maybe they're hopefully coming from a good place. But little Jane was little a child.
- [11:51]
Jane Marie
I was little. I was little. And I think about, like, when I dropped out, I was 16. And I remember even clocking that when I turned 16, like, going like, oh, I know the laws. Like, I know that I can get emancipated and go get an apartment, which is what I did. I moved out, too. When I dropped out, I went and lived somewhere else. But I remember clocking that, like, okay, finally I've reached the age where legally I can go do this by myself. And I. I've kind of always felt like that through my adult life. Like, I really. I like my solitude. But I also. I'm trying. And as I go through all my therapy to, like, be loved, to let people do things for me, to let people take care of me is really hard. And I do wish I had had that. At the time, I didn't realize that that's what I wanted. At the time, I. I thought I wanted more independence and to, like, not have the criticism and go do my own thing. But now, looking back on it, I could have. Yeah, I could have used a lot more tenderness, I guess.
- [12:54]
Dr. Valerie Young
You've talked about having recurring nightmares and lots of theories out there about what nightmares and dreams mean to us. Yeah, but in the nightmares that you're describing is very related to I almost source point of the feelings of imposter syndrome. Still needing credits to graduate.
- [13:12]
Jane Marie
Yeah.
- [13:12]
Dr. Valerie Young
Something in Deep inside of you. Yeah. Sounds like it's holding onto the fear that you're still gonna fail, that something's not gonna work out, that you're gonna wake up tomorrow and none of this is real. So do those dreams feel like they're adding to imposter syndrome? How has it shifted over time?
- [13:29]
Jane Marie
I know that it's my subconscious working some stuff out, and that kind of dream comes across in all different ways. Like, you know, I have the dream where I'm. Something very important's about to happen, and I can't find the clothes I'm supposed to be wearing. Or, you know, I'm just late, I miss the whole thing. I don't get to go to the thing. Or I have one where the floor falls out all the time, which I think is that same insecurity. Yeah. And then the one where I can't remember my locker combination, and so I just have to, like, fake it in class or quit and leave because I can't get my textbooks or my homework. So it is that all the time in my dreams. I have good dreams every once in a while, but most of them are like, stress dreams like that.
- [14:12]
Dr. Valerie Young
These dreams, that's one thing. But in our waking moments, what tools have been helpful for you when navigating these feelings?
- [14:19]
Jane Marie
Well, here, like, you know, I do want to say one thing, which is that being a woman, especially in professional areas, is like constant imposter syndrome. Just, like, knowing I'm not getting paid what I'm worth, knowing that I'm not being viewed the way the men are.
- [14:32]
Dr. Valerie Young
Being perceived in some way.
- [14:34]
Jane Marie
Yeah, as an imposter. Yeah, exactly. And I work in a place where it, you know, the higher ups are mostly men, so that is something I have to face all the time. And then the flip side is if you're a woman especially, you recognize your own accomplishments and you own your abilities, then you get, you know, shamed for being full of yourself. So I feel like I'm always trying to walk the line of being like humble and don't act too highfalutin. But I do have a Peabody. Right. I wrote a book, I knew I wanted to, but I never thought I would actually accomplish. There's things like that that I need to remember. But then I'm always scared that people are gonna think I'm like, I have an ego problem.
- [15:16]
Dr. Valerie Young
Do you have any go to practices people, even words of affirmation that help you during these times?
- [15:22]
Jane Marie
A little existential. But I have to remind myself that we're like making this whole thing up.
- [15:26]
Dr. Valerie Young
Like, I laugh because that's like one of my life practices.
- [15:33]
Jane Marie
I'm just like, we're making this whole thing up. Like, I don't, it doesn't really matter what I do. And also that I have to remind myself I'm not going to get in trouble from anybody. Like if I get found out for being an imposter, the worst thing that could happen is like, I'd have to find another job, which I've always been capable of doing. That's the other thing I have to remind myself of. I always figure it out. So that's like something that helps a lot.
- [15:56]
Dr. Valerie Young
That's akin to something that some therapists will lean on, which is a strengths based approach. As we're reaching back into previous experiences and evidence of the contrary. The thing that we're dealing with is I'm an imposter. But the evidence of the contrary is all of your accomplishments. You've made it through much more difficult times than this thing that's right in front of you.
- [16:17]
Jane Marie
Right. My therapist does remind me all the time of. She's like, I don't know anyone that works as hard as you. So I try to give myself a little more grace and self care. Oh God. That's like the hardest thing for me to do because when you have an imposter syndrome, you feel like you have to just be working all the time.
- [16:34]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yeah. To prove yourself.
- [16:36]
Jane Marie
To prove yourself and like just generating more and more and more and going to get a massage feels like a missed opportunity or something rather than something that will help me do my work better. And I've had to learn how to do that.
- [16:50]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yeah. The self care piece is interesting as you said that, because I'm also thinking like we as adults learn a lot of our Habits, our behaviors, the ways that we nurture and care for ourselves based on the way that we were nurtured and cared for. And you described a childhood in which you weren't necessarily getting that all the time. So how does a small child learn how to take care of themselves as nobody's taking care of them?
- [17:12]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [17:12]
Dr. Valerie Young
How does a small child learn how to self soothe when nobody has soothed them when they're sad?
- [17:16]
Jane Marie
Right. That's another thing that I do with my child. If she is having a bad dream or something like that, she wants her back scratched, I will scratch her back at any time of night. I will get up out of my bed at three o' clock in the morning and go scratch her back. Because I just want her to know somebody's there. And then also I want her to be able to again, like you're talking about self soothe. So there's plenty of opportunities where I just give her a pep talk and hope that she can figure it out herself.
- [17:43]
Dr. Valerie Young
Not uncommon for a lot of people that had some kind of childhood that they can reflect on and feel like, I wish it would have been this way. Not uncommon for folks like this to then have the thought of, I'm gonna fix it with my own child. I'm not gonna continue this pattern, this cycle. And you mentioned that, that you wanted to fix it with your daughter. Yeah. So I'm curious about what that means. What does that look like? How are you approaching motherhood?
- [18:10]
Jane Marie
Well, she barely ever gets in trouble. Cause she's a good kid. But I think those things go in hand in hand. Like I think me telling her she's a good kid and treating her like a good kid. You know, just like telling her I love her constantly. Now she's 11, so she doesn't want to snuggle quite as much. But you know, being very affectionate. And when she asks for something, just being like, sure, yeah, unless I'm like too busy. But like, mom, will you grab me some water? Yeah. Just like kind of being there, being consistent and loving and focused. I think that's another thing. My parents were so focused on their relationship and then their next relationships because they got married so young that they just didn't have those experiences before getting married. They were really distracted with work and relationships and stuff. And I try my hardest when I'm with her anyway to like be with her. I want to make sure she likes what she's doing. Like, likes school and enjoys her activities after school because I was made to perform. Like, I stopped liking all the Things I was supposed to be doing after school. Like, I was a ballerina, and it became, like, a task rather than a job. Yeah. Like, she's a great guitarist. I have never once told her to practice.
- [19:28]
Hesu Jo
Yeah.
- [19:28]
Jane Marie
But she shows up to her lessons happily, and she noodles around in her room by herself. But I've never once said, like, you better get on your guitar practice, because I wanted to, like, do things she likes, you know, instead of. For me.
- [19:42]
Dr. Valerie Young
It sounds like you're maybe even reaching deep into the space of what I wish little Jane had. I'm gonna provide that, because I was gonna ask, where did you learn this approach? I think some of it is just coming from maybe you're what you're providing to what little Jane did not get.
- [20:00]
Jane Marie
Yeah.
- [20:00]
Dr. Valerie Young
And that's actually something we talk about in therapy is reparenting the inner child.
- [20:04]
Jane Marie
Yeah. I talked to a therapist a bunch about it. I read tons of books when I was pregnant about raising happy kids and resilient. Like, there is one called Raising Resilient Children that I recommend all the time.
- [20:15]
Dr. Valerie Young
You're showing her she can trust the world, that she can trust people, that people are there to help her and love her.
- [20:21]
Jane Marie
I wanted her to be securely attached to someone. Right. Right. She went to the same elementary school this whole time. She goes to her neighborhood junior high. She's going to our neighborhood high school. It makes my life difficult because I have to. We live in an expensive area, and I have to figure out how to pay rent and all of that stuff. But for me, anyway, it's nice having that goal of, like, this will be your secure place. This will be a secure. Like, you're not gonna get yanked out of your environment. You can rely on your friends being your friends for as long as you want them to be your friends.
- [20:55]
Dr. Valerie Young
The experience of long, lasting, meaningful relationships.
- [20:58]
Jane Marie
Y. Yeah. Yeah.
- [21:00]
Dr. Valerie Young
So in. In that journey of figuring out what works for you, what's working for you, how to support yourself, how have you learned to define your own sense of legitimacy and success on the other side of imposter syndrome, I think.
- [21:12]
Jane Marie
And I don't want to put too much of it on my kid, but I know I'm a good mom. And I have to remember, remind myself of that. Like, I'm a really good mom, and I know that in my core, like, I'm doing the right stuff, as evidenced by how happy she is and calm, and that helps me remind myself in that area. Anyway, I'm not an imposter. Like, I'm doing a really good job as A mom in work, it's still really hard. But I'm also in a career that's, like, really topsy turvy, and it's hard to measure success. Podcasting is just, like, constantly changing, and the goal posts move all the time.
- [21:48]
Dr. Valerie Young
Earlier, you're like, I mean, I have published a book.
- [21:50]
Jane Marie
I have Peabody, maybe that, but it wasn't a bestseller. You know, that's how I have to not do that. I have to say I was on the bestseller list. And then I have to remind myself that that's actually not a real list. It's an editorial thing.
- [22:03]
Dr. Valerie Young
But everything's made up.
- [22:05]
Jane Marie
Everything's made up. It's all made up. So, yeah, I don't even have to focus on my accomplishments. I have to focus on my luck and joy that I get out of my work. You know, I have a really cool job, and I kind of lucked into it, but I do enjoy my work.
- [22:22]
Dr. Valerie Young
Has there been a specific moment in your career when you felt like you truly did belong? Perhaps when this voice of the imposter syndrome was a bit more quiet? And what was that like?
- [22:33]
Jane Marie
I'm a really good bartender.
- [22:34]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Jane Marie
And barista. That I'm great at. I just know how to be fast and good and polite and happy, and I love it. And time goes by really fast. So in that job, I don't feel like an imposter.
- [22:44]
Dr. Valerie Young
Because you just felt, like, confident in all of the abilities, the skills, the problem solving needed for that role.
- [22:50]
Jane Marie
Yes. Confident and competent. And I feel like it's usually when I just get some really good feedback from someone I wasn't expecting to give me good feedback. Like, one time I was working on a Show for Adam McKay, and he wrote in a note in an email that this moment in one episode that we were working on is the best audio he's ever heard in his life. And I want to frame that and just put it on the wall. Like, this person who's very good at their job said that I made the best 10 minutes of audio that he's ever heard. And I try to remind myself that that stuff happens sometimes, you know?
- [23:25]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yeah.
- [23:26]
Jane Marie
And, like, I try to remind myself that the way other people perceive me is not at all like, I'm an imposter.
- [23:31]
Dr. Valerie Young
Do you think that imposter syndrome is something that can be avoided completely?
- [23:37]
Jane Marie
I think. And I've never been good at this, but I think this is going to sound like, so hippie dippy coming from me because I'm so critical of these sorts of things, but, like, A gratitude journal, I think something like that. Like journaling or writing down your accomplishments for the day. My friend Priyanka gives herself gold stars, and I think that's really cute, but, you know, keeping a record of the good stuff.
- [24:00]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yeah, I agree.
- [24:01]
Jane Marie
Instead of just dwelling on the bad feelings and appreciating positive feedback, we are hardwired to remember bad things and to experience them more deeply. And I've learned that in therapy and in researching stuff for my show, that negative feelings and negative experiences stick with us and pain us us much more than positive experiences bring us joy.
- [24:25]
Dr. Valerie Young
Well, some deep, primitive system is trying to prevent us from going through that discomfort or pain again. So I gotta remember it so that I can avoid it. And that sometimes turns into some dysfunctional behavior, unfortunately.
- [24:37]
Jane Marie
Exactly. And we can't change how our parents bring us up. But I think, you know, as soon as possible, like, just trying to appreciate the wins and revel in them a little bit, I should let my accomplishments kind of shine for a little bit longer instead of like, going, ah, I'm an imposter. And, like, I hope no one finds out that I. That I did something good, you know, because then I'm gonna have to defend myself or whatever.
- [25:02]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yes. I just listened to you go through this whole process of telling other people. I think this is how you can help with your imposter syndrome, is revel in your accomplishment. And you came back to, I'm going to follow my own advice. So I really, really love that you got to that point. And I really wanted to thank you for your time and your energy having this conversation with us. So thank you so much, Jane.
- [25:25]
Jane Marie
I appreciate you having me on.
- [25:30]
Dr. Valerie Young
So much came up in that discussion with Jane. And despite all she's accomplished, imposter syndrome still finds a way to show up in her life, especially in high pressure or unfamiliar situations. And that's something a lot of us can relate to. Jane's story also shows how these feelings don't always just go away with success. They can evolve or quiet down and then sometimes flare up again when we least expect it. When we don't name what's going on, it can keep us isolated, stuck in our feelings, and convinced we're the only ones who feel this way. So let's dig a little deeper. I sat down with Dr. Valerie Young, author, speaker, and one of the world's leading experts on imposter syndrome. She co founded the Imposter Syndrome Institute and spent decades researching why we feel like frauds, how those feelings affect different people, and what we can do to loosen their grip. Together, we revisited some key moments from Jane's interview and pulled out helpful frameworks, research, and advice for anyone who's ever questioned whether they truly belong. Let's dive in. Hi, Dr. Young. Thank you so much for being here to have this conversation with me today. I'm really eager to get into it with you.
- [26:46]
Hesu Jo
I am too. Thanks so much for having me, Dr. Young.
- [26:49]
Dr. Valerie Young
I previously was speaking with Jane Marie, who shared that she had dropped out of high school and she moved from a rural community to pursue a particular career and often felt like she was out of place othered like she didn't belong. And so she was describing a lot of experiences with imposter syndrome. I'm curious about your thoughts on what happens when institutions reinforce someone's sense of not belonging and how that might shape imposter syndrome long before someone enters a professional space.
- [27:19]
Hesu Jo
Sounds like in Jane's circumstances it's based on geography. Class may be in the mix, right? If she's working class or first generation in her family to go to college or have a white collar professional job, you know, for someone else, it might be being the only woman in the room or the only person of color, the only person with a perceived disability. But in one way or another, you know, you're in a setting, whether it's an organization or school, where, you know, you're the first, the few are the only, right? So there might be that pressure to kind of represent your entire group, but also to just feel like you just don't. You just don't fit in. Like, because you. The reality is she is in a whole other world. So I think in these situations, it's really important to try to shift the question from not why do I feel like an imposter, but to normalize it by saying, like, how could you not under the circumstances? I'm a big fan of helping people understand. You know what I think of as the perfectly good reasons why someone might feel like a fraud so that they can kind of get the view from 20,000ft and do less personalizing, less feeling like it's all about them, and more contextualizing.
- [28:28]
Dr. Valerie Young
Oh, contextualizing. I think a lot of people actually often think of imposter syndrome as a very personal issue. Something about me, something about my identity. But how much of it is actually a result then of systemic or social pressures?
- [28:43]
Hesu Jo
Well, I mean, obviously we experience it on the personal level, right? And it impacts our thoughts and feelings and behaviors. But I think in other ways it's somewhat been over psychologized meaning there are situational sources of imposter syndrome. There's a reason why students, for example, especially doctoral students, medical students, are much more likely to experience imposter syndrome than the general public. Right. Their knowledge and intellect is literally being tested every day. Really, anybody who's on the receiving end of stereotypes about competence or intelligence is going to have a greater vulnerability to imposter syndrome. The research finds in terms of race, that imposter feelings are highest amongst Asian Americans. The researchers think it's a combination of two things and more research obviously is needed. But one is within Asian culture, other cultures as well, but more of a collective sense of success, where your success reflects on your family and your community, versus more of a Western individual notion of success, but also from the systemic side, the pressure to be the so called model minority, always striving, always achieving. So it's that kind of combination of family expectations, cultural expectations and a societal bias.
- [29:57]
Dr. Valerie Young
Thank you for adding that note. I will say for those of you that can't tell, I am Asian American. And that very much resonates with me in my experience. So another question for you, what are some tools or approaches for people who come from working class or non traditional backgrounds and feel out of place in elite spaces?
- [30:14]
Hesu Jo
Yeah, it's interesting. I have been there. When I was working on my doctoral degree, my mother was working at the same university as a night janitor. You know, you can't change the environment. It kind of is what it is. And I think that goes back to being able to contextualize it, to find where can you get your support, where are the people who you can identify with? And I think that the challenge for those folks is the support may not come from home, not because they don't support you, but because they have no context. You know, when I was in graduate school, I went to a writing therapist because I was blocked on writing my dissertation. And I was so angry at my parents because they kept asking me like, when I was going to be done with my dissertation. And my therapist is like, why would they understand that? They have. It is absolutely. There was no context in which they would understand that. And it really helped me to be a little more forgiving of them and like just so find the places where you can get support.
- [31:08]
Dr. Valerie Young
So in the interview that I had with Jane, that conversation I had with Jane, she mentioned that her own father was probably or very much a perfectionist in her words. She, I think also kind of was thinking out loud that perhaps he had imposter syndrome. Perhaps this was Something that he was playing out through her own achievements. And we've definitely heard of parents projecting some of their own unprocessed, unresolved things onto their children. But I am wondering from you, the expert, do you think that imposter syndrome can be translated from a parent's experience and then given onto their children?
- [31:40]
Hesu Jo
Absolutely. Family messages and expectations, or even from, you know, teachers and guidance counselors, important people in our lives growing up can shape how we feel about our competence and our abilities. But I also want to say I've talked to many parents who are not perfectionists and their kids are, and they're trying to get these kids to just stop, you know, being, you know, very young age, being perfectionists. And there are books that are aimed at children, children's books on perfectionism. So that's another, you know, kind of angle for the folks who are listening, who are also parents. On the flip side, I find that often therapists based because of the training, instinctively go to family messaging. And it may not always be family messaging. Maybe it's that you're in a STEM field or that you're in a creative field. The occupations, you're going to find a lot more folks in stem, which is information dense, rapidly changing, where you feel like you should be able to keep up, but you possibly can't. Right? People in creative fields are being judged by subjective standards.
- [32:39]
Dr. Valerie Young
So Jane did mention pretty explicitly that the adults around her when she was growing up, they were not generous and she felt alone a lot of the time. She also mentioned being the oldest of a bunch of siblings, moving around a lot. How does being a parentified child, in your opinion, show up in adulthood, especially in work or relationships?
- [32:58]
Hesu Jo
How it might show up in tries of imposter syndrome is, you know, a core part of my work was the classification of what had become known as the five types of imposter syndrome. You know, I'm sure you're familiar with cognitive distortions by either or thinking over generalizing, over personalizing. I really look at competence distortions, these unrealistic, unsustainable expectations that we have about what it means to be competent. So the perfectionist, which the academic literature not surprisingly, finds a very strong connection between imposter syndrome and perfectionism. But there's also the expert, which is kind of the knowledge version of the perfectionist. That's the person who thinks they need to know 150%, the natural genius who, who is all about kind of ease and speed, who thinks they should be able to pick things up and just master them. Very quickly. And if they don't, then they judge themselves and then there's the superhuman.
- [33:53]
Jane Marie
And.
- [33:54]
Hesu Jo
And parents can fall into that. So they feel like they have to excel at a very high level at all the different functions at work. So leadership and scientific discovery or big picture strategy and detailed execution, women especially also extend that into their home life. To also be the perfect parent, perfect partner. House has to look great. They have to look great. My electrician came over recently and I said, john, do men ever apologize when the house is a mess? And he said, never. Men don't apologize because they're not seen as responsible for that. Somebody in Jane's situation may fall into the one that I refer to as the soloist who came to believe that it only counts if I do it all by myself. You know, she had to become independent, right? She had to be self supporting and self reinforcing because she wasn't getting that from adults. So that may now be her orientation to competence.
- [34:52]
Dr. Valerie Young
What's the difference between raising a resilient child and a child who feels like they can never fail?
- [34:58]
Hesu Jo
To me, it's about trying to help them become early on what I call a humble realist. Somebody who has a realistic understanding of competence, that they're not going to be great at everything. That, you know, failure and mistakes and setbacks are just part of life. Anything you can to help them develop a healthy response to those things. So it might be asking them, and this really came from Carol Dweck, which would be a. A typical dinnertime conversation with parents is to say, what did you learn in school today? To which the kids say, nothing, I don't know.
- [35:31]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [35:31]
Hesu Jo
Which is what we used to say. She said, wouldn't it be more helpful if we said, let's all go around the table and talk about something that was difficult or challenging or we failed at and how we handled it. I'll start. And so to really start modeling that resilience because they're not going to avoid adversity and challenge, it's always going to be like, what did you do with it?
- [35:53]
Dr. Valerie Young
Love that. I think many of us have experienced this thing that we get into a position after we worked really hard to get there, but there's still a bit of anxiety. There's a whole line of people behind me that are waiting to take this job, that can do it better, maybe that have more work ethic than I do. So I really need to perform to make sure that I maintain my position. So in your opinion, why do high achieving people, especially women, still struggle with Imposter syndrome. Even with this long list of accolades and external successes, Pauline Clance and Suzanne.
- [36:25]
Hesu Jo
Ives, those are the two psychologists who coined the term imposter phenomena. And they identified different kind of common coping and protecting mechanisms, strategies, behaviors. In other words, when you feel like an imposter, you have to find a way to both manage the anxiety of waiting to be found out, like waiting for the other shoe to drop, but also avoid being found out. Now, these are largely unconscious patterns, but one of them is to overwork and over prepare. When you develop a realistic understanding of competence, you understand that. Yep, there's people who are better than you, there's people who know more than you, and there's people who aren't as good and don't know as much. I always tell people I'm really good at like two or three things, I'm okay at a few other things, and I suck at everything else. We're not always going to be remarkable. And, you know, how can we at times just be okay with being like, fabulously adequate?
- [37:17]
Dr. Valerie Young
Fabulously adequate. You mentioned the word competent or the idea of being competent. And I think of that being related to performance. Am I competent to perform at a certain standard? Some related note is some sense of belonging. I'm supposed to be here. So what would you say is the relationship between performance and belonging?
- [37:39]
Hesu Jo
Well, I think belonging can really impact how we perform in terms of psychological safety in organizations. If we are the first, a few, or the only person who's in a group where there are stereotypes about competence or intelligence, there is going to be that pressure to represent. There's a concept known as stereotype threat. Are you familiar with that?
- [37:59]
Dr. Valerie Young
Please educate me.
- [38:00]
Hesu Jo
Claude Steele pioneered it. He was at Stanford University. And Jason Aronson, I think, at Cornell. And what they found is that the fear of confirming a negative stereotype causes stress, which impacts performance, and it's counterintuitive. But the more accomplished someone was, the more the effect showed up. So let me give you two examples. They would give undergraduate students a test. Some of the students got a test with a checkbox where they checked off gender. And when they did this study, it was a binary choice. Male, female. The female students didn't do as well. They did more poorly because it unconsciously triggered the stereotype, oh, yeah, girls can't do math. When they added a box for race, the scores of the Asian American students went up because it triggered that supposedly positive stereotype that, you know, I must be good at math. You know, if you don't have that sense of Belonging. There's not a lot of folks who look like you. You can be much more kind of mindful on a very unconscious level of stereotypes could be based on ageism, ableism. I mean, you know, class. I mean, different variables can come into play. The point I make is it's competence isn't about knowing everything. It's about not knowing with confidence.
- [39:09]
Dr. Valerie Young
Mm.
- [39:10]
Hesu Jo
It's about being the person in the room who says, excuse me, I don't understand. You might feel more vulnerable being the person who doesn't understand. But what I also always want to reinforce to people is that we have no control over what anyone in that room thinks of us. We can only control our response.
- [39:28]
Dr. Valerie Young
Yes. When you were speaking, I thought of a personal experience that does resonate with this. This concept of stereotype threat. There is a stereotype out there that Asian women are bad drivers. So when I'm out on the road driving, perhaps something happens. Maybe I cut somebody off on accident. I definitely feel tension. I feel anxiety that somebody's going to see me and they're going to attribute this thing that I did on the road because I'm an Asian woman. And then it just makes me more stressed out. It makes me. It makes it difficult to relax and then get back into the headspace of, I am a competent driver. So totally makes sense.
- [40:02]
Hesu Jo
You know, it's happened to me around. Certainly gender has happened to me, but also around age. You know, I've been at a conference where somebody, you know, and the tech team is trying to show me something on my computer that I have to do. And I remember I'm, like, staring at my computer and, like, I couldn't find the AT symbol. I was there when the symbol was born. Right. Like, I know where the symbol is. I've had a. I've had an online business since 1995. I know where the ad symbol is. But I. I got, like, flustered. Cause I'm thinking, who's gonna think I'm this old lady? And so it was like, this vivid example of how it can undermine your.
- [40:33]
Jane Marie
Your performance.
- [40:34]
Dr. Valerie Young
And that experience you described is making me think of that we have when we have nightmares, these bad dreams. Like, something about, I can't do this. So how do you think nightmares or physical symptoms reflect unresolved imposter syndrome?
- [40:49]
Hesu Jo
Yeah. I can tell you that the closer I got to being Dr. Valerie Young, I would have a recurring nightmare that I had to go back to first grade. Like, they looked in my files, and I had to go back. Now, part of me was like, well, all right, I can read and write like I got a leg up on these other kids, but yeah, it can certainly show up up in our dreams, you know, because people think success kind of is the cure for imposter syndrome. You know, the more successful you are, you just feel like you're fooling more people on a higher level. Right. The stakes are higher, the expectations are higher, there's farther to fall. So I think for a lot of us, it's not so much fear of failure, it's fear of success. And because success can separate us from other people, and we don't talk about that very much, it could take you farther away from your family, for example. It could take you farther away from your community. If you have to relocate for school or for a job or if somebody's trying to make a career decision, do I go for the promotion? Do I relocate for the job? It can be hard to sort out. Am I afraid because I don't think I can do it, which is imposter syndrome talking, or do I not want it because it might separate me? Or it just goes conflicts with my. What I want my life to look like. I am a big fan of the life first, work second approach to career planning. You know, I'm good at typing and mowing the lawn, but that doesn't mean that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. So I always think it's helpful to think about what do I want my life to look like and then decide, you know, how can I create a livelihood that's going to allow me to have as much of that life for.
- [42:22]
Dr. Valerie Young
Adults now that are potentially struggling with those feelings of imposter syndrome, and perhaps they grew up as children in homes with perfectionist type of expectations. What do you suggest for people like this to move through this, navigate this, grow from it?
- [42:39]
Hesu Jo
There's a wonderful quote by Jennifer White that says perfectionism is a refusal to let yourself move ahead. I think one thing we can do, Jesu, is to make a distinction between perfectionism, which is unattainable, and a healthy drive to excel. People who have a healthy drive to excel, they want to do their very best, but they understand, you know, sometimes things aren't going to work out. When it doesn't, they kind of regroup. They do like failure analysis, as you would in engineering. What went wrong? How could I improve it? I think sports provides a wonderful analogy for people. The losing team doesn't go home, hang up the uniform and go home, right? They go watch the game tape, they get More coaching and they practice more and they say, we'll get them next time. It's not that you're not disappointed if you get that B grade in school or you don't get the job or the promotion. You can be crushingly disappointed but not ashamed if on the low end, 70% of people have these feelings, like, what's up with the other 30, right? Well, some part of that 30 has a whole different issue going on, like irrational self confidence syndrome or there are people who really are incompetent and they don't know it. Over half men, when they did a survey said their confident that they could land a plane in a crisis and pilots are going, yeah, dude, no you can't.
- [44:04]
Jane Marie
Right?
- [44:05]
Hesu Jo
So there's that part of that 30% who we're not aspiring to be like, like the proverbial smartest guy in the room. On the other hand, there's a part of that 30% we do want to better understand. The part that is people who are genuinely humble but have never had imposter feelings. You know, because the opposite of imposter isn't arrogance or incompetence. The opposite is being a humble realist. And they're not more intelligent, capable, competent, talented or even confident than the rest of us. It's just in the exact same situation where we feel like an imposter, they're thinking different thoughts. So to me, so much of the unlearning comes in when we have like a normal imposter moment to kind of hit the mental pause button, become consciously aware, like what is the conversation going on in my head right now and how could I reframe it the way a humble realist would? It's kind of the difference between walking into a room and going like, oh my God, everyone here is brilliant. Or walking in a room and going, wow, everyone is brilliant. You know, I'm going to learn so much. Or just saying, you know, the more I do anything, the better I'll get. Or we all have, you know, we all have an off day, you know, I'll get them next time. So it, you know, and it takes practice and we're not going to believe the new thoughts. But you know, I don't have to tell you that feelings are the last to change. In my view, the only way to stop feeling like an imposter is to stop thinking like an imposter.
- [45:32]
Dr. Valerie Young
Brilliant.
- [45:33]
Hesu Jo
Somebody said to me, what if we tell ourselves all these new things and you don't believe it? And I said, you won't believe it. Like, trust me, you believe the old thoughts. That's why you have to kind of act like the person who really did believe the new thoughts, even though you don't believe it. And then over time, like the confidence will catch up.
- [45:48]
Dr. Valerie Young
It's like going to sleep. In order to sleep, you have to pretend to sleep for a little bit.
- [45:51]
Hesu Jo
That's a great example.
- [45:52]
Dr. Valerie Young
Thank you so much, Dr. Young.
- [45:54]
Hesu Jo
Thank you.
- [45:58]
Dr. Valerie Young
I want to give a big thank you to BetterHelp for their passion behind this project and for giving us a platform to champion the well being in all of us. Mind if We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with BetterHelp and hosted by me, Jesu Jo. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review on Spotify or Apple podcasts and share with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life and remember your happiness matters. Mind if We Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Hey listeners, there's one more thing I want to mention super quickly. Today we talked about how to help you feel more confident and kick that feeling of imposter syndrome. I wanted to give you a little reminder that therapy can give you tools that are tailored just for you with help from an expert. If you want to try online therapy, visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off your first month. That's better. H E L p.com mind if we Talk.