← Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth
Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth
2539: Four Critical Things to Consider Before Getting Surgery & More (Listener Live Coaching)
01:47:06
Mind Pump Fit Tip: Don’t get that surgery!!! You could be making a huge mistake! Consider and listen to these 4 factors to make a better decision. (1:51) Static stretching combined with Brain.fm. (23:57) TVs look A LOT different these days....
Loading summary
Transcript697 lines
- [00:00]
Sal Destefano
If you want to pump your body.
- [00:02]
Adam Schafer
And expand your mind, there's only one place to go.
- [00:06]
Sal Destefano
Mind Pump. Mind Pump. With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer and Justin Andrews, you just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump, right? Today's episode, we answered live callers, questions, people called in and we got to help them out on air. But this was after our intro. Today's intro is 55 minutes long. In the intro, we talk about fitness studies, science, nutrition. It's a great time, by the way, if you want to be on an episode like this where you call in and we can help you out, we can coach you. Email us your question@liveindpumpmedia.com this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Brain fm Play sounds and music that changes the state of your mind. Proven by science. No joke. You listen to meditate and your brain gets into a meditation state. Listen to focus and you become more focused. It's amazing. It works. Don't believe me? Try it out for 30 days for free. Go to Brain FM mindpump. This episode is also brought to you by Mind Pump Group coaching. We're going to do group coaching here at Mind Pump, and we've only done this once before. We're doing it again. If you were in shape before you fell out of shape and you want to get back into shape, you want to do a comeback, you want to transform your body. Limited spaces, but go to mindpumpgroupcoaching.com sign up our trainers, the ones that we hire, the ones that work for us, are going to coach you. And yes, myself, Adam and Justin will pop in there and help you out as well. It's mindpumpgroupcoaching.com Also, we have a sale this month. Maps, Anabolic and the no BS six pack formula. You can put them together for this special bundle. The total price, $59.99. If you're interested, go to mapsfebuary.com all right, here comes the show. You have pain. You were injured. Should you get that surgery? No, stop before getting that surgery because you could be making a huge mistake. Consider and listen to these four factors that'll help you make a better decision. I'll start with the first one. Is there a structural mechanical problem that can't heal on its own? That's a very strong consideration.
- [02:12]
Justin Andrews
Okay, you have to explain that because people don't understand sometimes the difference between like an acute injury versus chronic pain versus. So describe that because it's such a.
- [02:20]
Doug
Good topic, by the way.
- [02:21]
Sal Destefano
Yes.
- [02:22]
Justin Andrews
Because I can't tell you how many clients that I trained that were recommended surgery when there was things that we could have done first.
- [02:30]
Caller
Totally. Absolutely.
- [02:31]
Sal Destefano
And then there's situations where you just have to, you have to.
- [02:34]
Doug
Right.
- [02:34]
Sal Destefano
And so when you, if you have a structural mechanical problem that can't heal on its own, that's essentially like, like you have a torn acl. Yeah, it's torn.
- [02:45]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [02:45]
Sal Destefano
It's not going to heal back.
- [02:47]
Justin Andrews
It's not going to reattach itself.
- [02:48]
Sal Destefano
Right. You have a torn pec. Completely it's gone. You know, you have a ligament that's, that's severed completely. Your muscle, your supraspinatus is, is mostly or all torn and it's just not going to heal on its own. You have to have surgery. Right. Your body's not going to grow those ligaments back together. It's not going to fix. It's limited to what it can fix on its own. And in that case, surgery is absolutely essential.
- [03:15]
Caller
External help with that.
- [03:16]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Rehab and correctional exercise can only go so far when it comes to helping a structural mechanical break. You can definitely rehab yourself with an ACL tear so that you feel better, but you don't have an acl, so that stability is gone. In fact, I know people like this. I know people who had a torn ACL or PCL and they never got it fixed because they stopped playing sports and they could literally sit down and shift their, their lower leg.
- [03:46]
Caller
Yeah.
- [03:46]
Sal Destefano
Forward about. You ever seen that?
- [03:47]
Caller
Oh, yeah, yeah. Especially you got nothing and then it just keeps going. There's no kind of limitation to that. But. Yeah, but then there's the case where it's like it's just strained or it's stretched out.
- [03:57]
Sal Destefano
That's different.
- [03:57]
Caller
It was different. Which, you know, I'm sure we'll get into that.
- [04:00]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [04:00]
Justin Andrews
There's also the case too of like, because you didn't mention mcl because an MCL is less important. And I mean I, I lost mine and never, never did anything about it. So it's like certain ligaments and certain things are more necessary than other things. So you could also.
- [04:15]
Sal Destefano
I'm glad you said that because the other consideration that's part of this is how do you plan on living the rest of your life? Right. With no mcl? If you were to go and continue to play high level basketball or something like that or sport, you know, you might consider having it surgically.
- [04:30]
Caller
Risk analysis with that.
- [04:32]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Like I had AC joint resection and mine was Completely separated and it was gone. So resection was probably a better option for me. But in some cases this isn't the case. In some cases, there's tendonitis or, you know, that's the next one. Is the pain just due to inflammation? Like, how many times do people go to a doctor, they have joint pain, the doctor images it and they're like, oh, yeah, there's inflammation.
- [04:58]
Caller
With all this inflammation.
- [04:59]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, yeah. And then what they do from there is. And this is sometimes correct, sometimes, maybe not from maybe just my opinion, they'll say, oh, there's inflammation. And we think what's causing it is this thing right here that we can surgically repair. Sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes you have inflammation. Oftentimes, in my experience, the inflammation is due to just dysfunction. Poor movement, weakness instability, poor movement. And correcting those things makes it diet can attribute. Yeah, yeah. You know, what's a big one? What's a big one for us here in Silicon Valley? How many times did you guys work with a client who was going to get carpal tunnel surgery and then through working with you didn't need to get anymore?
- [05:42]
Caller
Oh, yeah, there's. There's a lot you can do with, you know, mobilizing these joints and trying to regain function. But yeah, that's that again, they'll get to the doctor and get recommendations. And this is where that confusion kind of sets in. Because the doctor holds, you know, the highest cards usually.
- [05:57]
Sal Destefano
Yes.
- [05:57]
Justin Andrews
Shoulder is another common one. I had a lot of clients that had shoulder stuff going on, and a lot of it was just a lot of inflammation caused. Caused the chronic pain. And they go in and then they're, they're, you know, recommended surgery when it's like, do we, haven't we. Let's try and fix the position of your shoulder girdle first so the shoulder is moving optimally and see if we can alleviate some of that before we just go right under the scalp.
- [06:20]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. So for somebody who's not familiar with, like, anatomy. Right. Like, if you think of a joint, you can think of like, think of any, any moving part, mechanical moving part, like in your car or like a hinge on a door. Think of a hinge on a door. Okay. If the hinge is misaligned a little bit and I keep opening and closing the door, damage is going to start to occur on that hinge because the metal is rubbing too hard on one side. It's not fully balanced or properly balanced. You'll look at the hinge and go, oh, my God, this is all messed up. And what you would, in the body, what you would do is you would fix the hinge or fix the way that the door moves in the hinge and then the body heals the hinge. Now with the door, you'd have to replace the hinge because it doesn't heal itself. But this is what happens in joints oftentimes. If you look at the knee, for example, right, you have the lower leg flexing and extending with the upper leg. And then you have a kneecap that slides and floats above that. And if it's not moving the way it's supposed to, then you start to get wear and tear that overcomes your body's ability to heal. And so you start to develop chronic inflammation and pain. And you start to see things like, you know, chondromalacia under the kneecap or whatever. Same thing with the joint. The joint is very complex. Excuse me, the shoulder joint is very complex joint. So you have like the humerus moving, but then you have the scapula moving along with it. And if it doesn't move the way it's supposed to, you get wear and tear that occurs. And fixing it with surgery doesn't fix the problem. The problem is the joint isn't moving the way it's supposed to. What makes joints move? Muscle.
- [07:52]
Caller
Muscle.
- [07:53]
Sal Destefano
So what we can do is we can change how the muscles work. We can strengthen them in appropriate ways, change what's, for lack of a better term, recruitment patterns, right. How the muscles work together, try and.
- [08:04]
Caller
Balance it out so it maintains that good tracking.
- [08:07]
Sal Destefano
That's right. So like, you know, frozen shoulders are very common. One frozen shoulder gets really nasty where you literally can't lift your arm much. Well, physical therapy solves that problem many times. Rotator cuff inflammation. Lots and lots and lots of rotator cuff surgeries happen. And many, many times good correctional exercise can solve the issue and allow the.
- [08:28]
Justin Andrews
Shoulder bursitis in the hips.
- [08:30]
Sal Destefano
Bursitis in the hips is another one. Or cyst in the knee. Baker Cyst with knee function. I've worked with like carpal tunnel and shoulder, like rotator cuff based inflammation. Like those two right there were so common, especially around here in Silicon Valley. People will come in with this pain and it got to the point where, you know, after 20 years of training people, yeah, I felt very confident that.
- [08:54]
Caller
We would positively affect the purple tunnel tennis elbow.
- [08:58]
Sal Destefano
Tennis elbow earlier.
- [09:00]
Caller
Yeah, those are big common ones.
- [09:01]
Sal Destefano
So is the pain just due to inflammation? And then what you got to do is back up and say, okay, what's causing the inflammation. In many cases, the correctional exercise can solve the root issue and then the body kind of heals itself. And then here's another point. Does it feel better or worse after massage or correctional exercise or stretching? Here's a good hint that maybe you don't need surgery. It's not 100%, but this points in the direction of maybe you don't need surgery. You do some massage or some correctional exercise or some stretching and immediately you feel a relief. You feel some pain relief. Oh, yeah. Then that's probably an issue that can be solved with those things. Right. If you do any movement at all, it gets far worse. Okay, well, maybe we have a much more.
- [09:46]
Justin Andrews
This used to be a massive selling point for me as a trainer. If I had a client who came in that I was assessing them on the first day and they tell me things like, oh, yeah, I've got this really bad shoulder and you're asking what it is? And they can point to a single thing that happens just over time. And oh, I'm thinking about surgery, this and that. You know, let me, let's get on the floor, let's do some assessing and let me see if I can help you out. And then you take them through some mobility drills and start to sometimes completely eliminate. Other times just alleviate somewhat and they'd be like, oh my God, that feels a lot better. And it's like, listen, there's, there's hope for us. Before you just decide to go get surgery, why don't we work on some of the. And so, man, that was such a. And that's such a great point of like, then there's other things where those things just exacerbate it.
- [10:30]
Doug
Right.
- [10:30]
Justin Andrews
So that's when you, A lot of times you know that you're most likely you're going to have to get surgery is when you try and do mobility or massage and it actually makes the situation even worse instead of making it better. But if it starts to alleviate it even in the slightest bit, that's normally a clue that, okay, something could be done about this movement wise to alleviate some of that.
- [10:46]
Caller
Well, that pain signal is interesting because a lot of times it prevents people from even attempting the movement after. And so to take them through that range of motion, then really squeeze and I'll do like isometrics where we just squeeze and hold this tension in place for a few seconds. And then all of a sudden if they do feel like relief, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, there's, there's. We could definitely work with this muscularly yeah.
- [11:10]
Sal Destefano
It's interesting. I had a. I remember once training a general surgeon. Very, very smart woman. And when she first hired me, she said, I can't do anything. I can't squat or do anything. I can't even go down to 90 degrees. And, you know, I've talked to my, you know, osteopath or whatever. It's like my knees or whatever, you know, three months later, we're doing full squats and lunges. And she was like, what happened? I said, it's just function. It was just function. There was nothing torn. There was nothing permanent. It was just your body wasn't moving well. And if your body doesn't move well, then it's going to start to hurt. And when you start to move better, you start to feel better. And again, one of the clues to this is, you know, you get a massage and it's like, wow, my pain's gone. Or you do a little bit of correctional exercise or some stretching. Like how many times people have hip pain, then they do a basic seated stretch and they, oh, the pain is gone.
- [12:04]
Caller
Unlocks it, or just creates stability again, and it sends that signal to your body, it's stable. Oh, we don't need that pain.
- [12:10]
Sal Destefano
A common one, by the way, along these lines is like, this isn't true for all of them. Okay. But many times in my experience, sciatica pain, people will come in. I have terrible sciatica pain. I've had it my whole life or whatever. And we do some. Some stretching and some work on their piriformis and some hip mobility. And that session. That session significantly reduces their sciatica pain. And then they practice it and it disappears. And these are people that have dealt with it, and they're taking painkillers, cortisone shots, like, just a bunch.
- [12:40]
Justin Andrews
That one's probably one of the most common because, I mean, that nerve runs right through there, and you have a couple muscles that could easily press on it.
- [12:45]
Doug
Yeah.
- [12:45]
Justin Andrews
Pressing on it. And then it makes them.
- [12:47]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. What happens is when you have. When you do have an injury or pain, your CNS starts to limit your motion, your movement, to try to protect it. But then that limited movement actually starts to become a problem as well, because then the pain comes up and the movement gets even more limited and more limited. And so you get this downward spiral effect of worse and worse and worse movement, and the pain goes up and up and up. This is why, oh, your shoulder hurts. Don't move it anymore. Okay? But once it's healed, you should move it and if you don't, then things can sometimes get a lot worse.
- [13:20]
Justin Andrews
This is also why too, when you, you notice these things like this, that getting on top of the mobility work early and not letting it progress, because the longer you let it progress, the longer it's going to take for you to get it back to where you were versus, like, you start noticing.
- [13:35]
Doug
Yes.
- [13:36]
Justin Andrews
Like, I mean, I think this is probably one of my, my favorite things about being a trainer is learning this about my own body. And I think I just shared this the other day about. I know, oh, if I'm not squatting for a while, I already start to notice my hips start to rotate a little bit, which then will eventually cause low back pain. And it's like now I'm so keen on that feeling that as soon as it starts to come, I'm like, oh, I gotta get right into doing my bubbly, otherwise I'll end up paying for it 10 times worse and I'll have that much more work to do when I wait that long.
- [14:03]
Doug
So as soon as you feel this.
- [14:04]
Justin Andrews
Not ignoring it and waiting for it to get worse, because it will progressively get better.
- [14:08]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. And then, and then lastly, are you fit and healthy? So you know how many times back pain, knee pain, hip pain, neck pain, shoulder pain is just because you're not fit, you're not healthy, or you're over sleeping? Yeah, yeah. Like it goes away. It's oftentimes a lot of these pains go away. But also this is something else to consider. Fit and healthy people have more success with surgery as well. So. So fit and healthy is good across the board. It helps when you have surgery. It also helps you prevent or not have to get surgery. But oftentimes if you're like, oh, my God, my knees hurt or my hip hurts or this hurts, and you know you're 60 pounds overweight, you know, you sit down most of the time, you know your diet's really bad and you're like, should I get surgery on this joint? Try getting fit and healthy first. Unless again, is there's like a major tear or whatever. Try getting fit and healthy first. Because if that's not the solution, that will at the very least make the surgery far more likely to be successful. So that should be the place you go no matter what.
- [15:15]
Justin Andrews
What is. What is Paul checks for doctors. Doctor Sunshine. Doctor Sleep, Light Sunshine. Movement, pain, Water. No, no, no. Is it what?
- [15:27]
Caller
Yeah.
- [15:27]
Sal Destefano
Oh, yeah. Because he tells you when Dr. Payne.
- [15:29]
Justin Andrews
He'S talking about all the. And like, you know, movement, sunlight, sleep. How often, like just addressing Those things ends up curing a lot of people that are in chronic pain. And to go that route first. So is this. Is this us peering into you getting older? Is this where this is coming from? Is this us letting us know how.
- [15:48]
Caller
You feel lately, right now, experimental surgery we don't know about?
- [15:51]
Sal Destefano
No, this is. So this is a good discussion because I went. I was down in LA yesterday, so you guys know this. I was on Max Lugavir.
- [15:59]
Justin Andrews
Oh, yeah? How was that?
- [15:59]
Sal Destefano
Love Max. Absolutely love Max. One of my favorite people in the world. He's a great guy. And he just. When I saw. So yesterday, he was less than two weeks out from back surgery. Okay. He had disc replacement surgery. Oh, in. I want to say L1, I have it written down. I got to see where it was. But he had it in his back. He had disc replacement surgery. And when I saw him, you know, we talked for a little bit before getting on the podcast, and he goes, man, because, okay, so Max, fit, healthy guy, he's in the well exercises, takes care of himself. And he was so frustrated because he had reached out to people in our space about this surgery and there were so many people like, don't get back surgery. Whatever you do, don't get back surgery. Don't do it. And he was telling me how much better he feels, and stuff. And I said, you know, Max, the issue with surgeries are. Well, first off, there's a self selection bias of people who tend to get back surgery and they tend to not be like you, fit, healthy people. That's going to dramatically change the outcomes. When you go into surgery and you're not healthy and not fit, the outcomes are going to be worse. Number two, the back or the spine is a very. It's a. It's a. I mean, that joint moves all over the place. It rotates, it flexes and extends and it bends laterally. Right. So it's a pretty dynamic joint from a movement perspective. If you're not strong, if you don't have stability, if you don't do proper exercise afterwards and you get surgery, then you're gonna have dysfunction because you're weak, because you're unfit, you're whatever. And that surgery may have worked, but it didn't work for you because you were unfit, unhealthy, et cetera. And so. And he was frustrated because he says, you know, I did all the correctional exercise stuff, Sal. I did everything. And it got so bad. And he showed me his imaging, his mri, and he talked about his disc.
- [17:48]
Justin Andrews
So was it degenerate?
- [17:49]
Sal Destefano
You had no disc.
- [17:50]
Justin Andrews
Oh, none at all?
- [17:51]
Sal Destefano
No, no, no.
- [17:51]
Justin Andrews
Wasted away.
- [17:52]
Sal Destefano
It was gone and it was bone on bone.
- [17:56]
Doug
Oh, wow.
- [17:56]
Sal Destefano
Okay. So like, like you do that.
- [17:58]
Justin Andrews
What do they, what do they. They put like a little wedge in between.
- [18:01]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, they put an artificial disc. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they go through the abdomen. So he had like a little tiny incision in his midsection.
- [18:07]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [18:07]
Sal Destefano
And if you're fit and healthy, you're a good candidate for this. If you're not, what they'll recommend typically is Fusion, which Fusion can help. But then you have the surrounding, you know, discs and joints that start to get lots of, you know, wear and tear. Fusion tends to lead to more.
- [18:22]
Caller
Yeah. Does that limit your mobility a lot with Fusion?
- [18:25]
Sal Destefano
No, no. Yes, with Fusion. Yeah. Now when they fuse, they fuse the two.
- [18:28]
Caller
The two bones together pretty much.
- [18:29]
Sal Destefano
And then what happens is the surrounding, you know, part of the spine concretes it together. Has to do the movement.
- [18:35]
Caller
Yeah.
- [18:35]
Sal Destefano
So. But with Max, he got, you know, disc replacement and again, he was frustrated. Like all these correctional exercise people in our space were like, don't get back surgery this and that. And it's like, you know, Max, their experience is because people who tend to get it come out and they're again, they don't go in fit, they don't go in strong, they don't go in with proper rehab and then it becomes a problem. It's a very dynamic joint.
- [18:59]
Justin Andrews
There's also a lot of different. Like I say, the most common back surgery stuff that you see that probably could have been prevented is the. And there's a lot of debate around the bulge disc.
- [19:09]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [19:10]
Doug
Right.
- [19:10]
Sal Destefano
Because there's different.
- [19:11]
Justin Andrews
There's scenarios.
- [19:12]
Sal Destefano
You can have a bulls disc.
- [19:13]
Doug
Yeah.
- [19:13]
Justin Andrews
There's scenarios where. And if you've been in the. If you're a movement specialist or been training or chiropractor for long, you've seen examples of people having these like, you know, several millimeter bulge disc and completely pain free. And then you have other people that have like barely anything and they're in like just excruciating pain.
- [19:31]
Caller
You could take your brain a little bit.
- [19:33]
Sal Destefano
Oh, yeah. You can take a hundred people who don't feel any pain and you're going to find decent amount, are going to have some kind of a herniated bulging disc.
- [19:40]
Justin Andrews
And so there. That's probably what I'd say the most controversial thing is around surgery for the back.
- [19:46]
Sal Destefano
But you know, with. In our space and you see this around the conversations around so many different things. Like, like GLP1s for example, it's like either all four or all against. No matter what.
- [19:56]
Justin Andrews
There's no, like, middle ground.
- [19:57]
Sal Destefano
There's no nuance. Yeah, with surgery there's a lot of nuance. There's a ton of nuance. And Max is a, is a candidate. He's a perfect candidate for something like this. This was a week and a half out. So he had just had the surgery, he's got the incision and he's like, I can move better a week and a half out than I could.
- [20:12]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, well, I mean, you said something that's really important. See, like, so when you get somebody who is very deconditioned, like a lot of the pain they could be going through is just lack of movement, they're inflamed, all these other things. You have somebody like Max who eats an incredibly healthy whole food diet. He exercises, he strength trains on a regular basis. Like, he has a lot of good.
- [20:33]
Caller
Practice, no reason for pain.
- [20:34]
Doug
Yeah, something.
- [20:35]
Justin Andrews
There's no reason for this guy to be in that much pain. And so he's a better example of like, okay, he's probably already exhausted a lot of the natural ways to try and make himself feel better or is already doing that and therefore he's still got a problem. Okay, this might be a good example. Whereas if I had a family member, which I've had that complain of like chronic back pain and they're contemplating surgery and I'm like, why don't we first try and exercise?
- [20:59]
Caller
Totally.
- [20:59]
Justin Andrews
Let's try and lose the 40 pounds of extra weight you have on you. Let's try and do some core exercises. Let's try and do some things first before.
- [21:06]
Sal Destefano
And at the very least, they'll set themselves up for more success.
- [21:09]
Doug
Exactly.
- [21:09]
Justin Andrews
A better surgery. That's why it's like a no brainer. It's not like I'm like, I'm not telling you we're not going to do surgery, but let's start to move in this direction first and see if we.
- [21:16]
Doug
Start to feel a little better.
- [21:17]
Sal Destefano
Also, the, the, and I, I, you know, I, I had some doctor, some surgeon clients that I worked with that understood this. They were really good. And it's like the rehab and correctional exercise post surgery portion is as important as a surgery. Like if you get surgery, first of all, when you get surgery, you're limited, your motion's limited, you're gonna come out with it with muscle recruitment issues because you can't move. The rehab is so important. Otherwise you wasted the surgery.
- [21:42]
Caller
Many times you have to rebuild those recruitment patterns. You have to rebuild the whole movement process all over again, totally in a healthy direction.
- [21:50]
Justin Andrews
Well, you remember, you guys, this was a lot of motivation behind Prime Pro was trying to bridge that gap. I mean, I remember personally experiencing my surgeries and. And I've shared this before on the.
- [22:01]
Doug
Podcast, so I apologize if you already heard this, but I was so blown.
- [22:05]
Justin Andrews
Away by the way the pts did our rehab, because I look at that point in my. I was already an experienced trainer, and so I knew the importance of movement.
- [22:16]
Doug
Right.
- [22:16]
Justin Andrews
And movement patterns. And I know I'm coming out of an injury, and I remember the.
- [22:20]
Doug
The.
- [22:21]
Justin Andrews
The PT just putting me on wall ball squats and then walking away and doing. And I'm like, do them on your own. Yeah. And if you just squat down after, like, a knee surgery like that, the body is still. Still thinks it's hurt and injured, and so it naturally drifts away. So I have this dramatic asymmetrical shift in my squat. Now, granted, I know what I'm doing, so I'm consciously fighting that and slowing it down and making sure that I perform.
- [22:45]
Doug
But if I.
- [22:45]
Justin Andrews
That should be cued, it wasn't communicated yet or cued to me. It's like how many people that don't know better are just going up and down on the squats and then they check you out, okay, they can squat up and down, get out of a chair, they're fine. Similar way. Well, now you've created this horrible recruitment pattern, and then you go. And then you go to the gym, and you just get in there and you start doing your leg press exercises with that, and you just exacerbate that. It's like there. There needed to be something between physical therapy and then getting a client ready to train. And I feel like Prime Pro was a lot of that. I mean, it was. Again, why we've talked about it being one of the programs we're most proud of.
- [23:21]
Sal Destefano
Absolutely. I had. I had a decent amount of clientele that would. Would transition from physical therapy to me because they weren't ready to go completely on their own. And in fact, I had a physical therapist in my studio that was excellent. She left the medical space and went private because of the limitations that you have with, like, insurance and stuff like that.
- [23:39]
Caller
Yeah, well, it's. It's interesting, too. A lot of these modalities now, like, even with Eldoa and, like, the kind of traction you can create with your back and, like, you know, I didn't know a lot of that even when I was a trainer. So, like, the Resources are out there too, in terms of, like, you know, furthering your knowledge and experience with how to help people kind of work through some of the pain.
- [23:57]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Now I gotta. You know what's interesting about this conversation? So I'm, you know, I'm flying down to la. Flying back. I always. I hate flying. Doesn't make me feel good. Whatever. I hate sitting in the chairs and, you know, the altitude. I don't know what it is.
- [24:09]
Justin Andrews
Just I don't use it to fly southwest because of shortfall.
- [24:11]
Caller
Yeah, I did, bro. So I told you guys, right. I was in line and I. I was just kind of minding my own business. And behind me was literally my favorite football player of all time.
- [24:22]
Sal Destefano
Oh, right. Lot.
- [24:22]
Caller
Ryan Lot.
- [24:23]
Sal Destefano
Oh, that's great.
- [24:24]
Justin Andrews
Oh, he was on your flight?
- [24:25]
Caller
My flight.
- [24:25]
Justin Andrews
Oh, really?
- [24:26]
Caller
Yeah. And he sat, like, across from me, and I. I was like, hold myself. Like, I was. I was fan. Fan girling, like, like, completely in my head.
- [24:35]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [24:35]
Caller
And just kept it to myself, waited. But then once we got off the plane, I was like, I just want you to know, favorite play of all time. Love watch you play.
- [24:44]
Doug
Just took off, you know.
- [24:45]
Sal Destefano
That's awesome.
- [24:46]
Caller
Yeah, it was great.
- [24:46]
Sal Destefano
So what I want to say about this was your. When you do certain types of movement, correctional exercise for yourself, your mental state makes a big difference as well in terms of how effective it is. For example, I'll never forget learning this. I was doing static stretching years ago, and I was being coached by somebody with the static stretching on how to really. Oh, it was my wife, actually. It was. My wife at the time was helping me with some static stretching. Now she. At the time, she was doing the silk. She had just finished traveling with Cirque du Soleil. She had incredible flexibility, and she learned how to stretch from, like, some of the best in the world. And I remember I'm doing the stretch, and I'm like. And she's like, why are you holding your breath? I'm like, I'm doing the stretch. She goes, you holding your breath is making your body tighten up. And then a light bulb went off. Like, oh, yeah, it's my cns. Like, if I hold my breath while I stretch, because I'm trying to do a static stretch. I'm trying to get my CNS to relax. Oh, yeah, I'm sending competing signals. Static stretch says relax. Holding my breath says, don't relax.
- [25:45]
Caller
Yeah, you're trying to get past it.
- [25:46]
Sal Destefano
It's not gonna. It's not gonna work. So I had this, like, this, like, yes. On the plane. I was using Brain FM putting meditate on listening to that while I was doing stretches in my seat. Oh, my God.
- [25:58]
Justin Andrews
It made a difference.
- [25:58]
Sal Destefano
Oh, yeah. Because what. So what Brain FM does. We know this, right? It changes. It changes the. The brainwaves, the brain waves that you can measure. So it can induce what would look like on. If you were to look at this and measure it like that looks like a brain that's meditating. That looks like a brain that's focused. That looks like a brain that's sleeping. Okay. So you put on the one that's meditate. I figured meditation is probably the closest you'd want to get to your CNS calming down or whatever. So I put that on. Listen to it. Five minutes into it, start stretching. Wow. It was like dramatic difference.
- [26:29]
Doug
Oh, I've done that before.
- [26:30]
Sal Destefano
My ability to get into positions and mobility and stretch type of deal. I never thought to combine the two really. And not with that. I've done it with workouts with focus, and it works with focus. It gets you in the zone. But never done it with.
- [26:45]
Justin Andrews
When we first were introduced to it, I was still in the prime of my training for bodybuilding, stuff like that. And I'd spend a good 15 minutes or so before every workout priming like that. And that was kind of part of the routine. I just put it in my ears and listened to that.
- [26:58]
Sal Destefano
Well, because your brain is part of your cns, so you're going to get the signal to the cns. The says chill, relax. The stretching throws another, you know, another signal in there and it just amplifies the one.
- [27:08]
Justin Andrews
I didn't use that. Justin was the one that got me to do this because in. Again, to your point, like, just had a. Had an aha moment or duh moment. I've. Whenever I read, part of why I like audiobooks better than reading is I tend to trail off. I lose focus when I'm. When I'm reading. Never would I have thought playing music in my ear would help me actually read until I. Justin was doing work and he's. And he was listening to focus on. I was like, that helps you while you're doing. He's like, yeah, totally. And then I started doing.
- [27:36]
Doug
Oh, my God.
- [27:37]
Justin Andrews
It does make a huge difference.
- [27:38]
Doug
So, yeah.
- [27:39]
Justin Andrews
When you apply it to. To things like that.
- [27:41]
Doug
Yeah, yeah. It's. It's. It's been.
- [27:42]
Justin Andrews
I mean, I love that stuff.
- [27:45]
Sal Destefano
It's. It's super awesome.
- [27:46]
Justin Andrews
It's a cool.
- [27:46]
Caller
It's funny you brought up the. Yeah. Meditation and stretching because I Did do that when I was, I had one crazy workout and I was just. Oh my God. I just felt like trashed. And I was downstairs and I was in kind of my man cave or whatever and just like sitting on the couch and I turned on. And you know that like YouTube has, they have this one channel where it's like, you get like a nature visual and it plays like almost like binary beats behind it. And you just sit there and you watch it and it's almost like the most peaceful thing and it's like turned on the brain of him instead because. And then it like had double the effect. I was just sitting there just.
- [28:24]
Sal Destefano
And it worked.
- [28:25]
Caller
Yeah, that's how I meditate. I need like guided focus and like, you know, I can't just sit there.
- [28:30]
Sal Destefano
And that's so awesome.
- [28:31]
Justin Andrews
Dude. You know, speaking of tv, I just saw, I think we've talked about. Did you guys, you guys seen the, the translucent TVs now that you can see through?
- [28:39]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [28:40]
Justin Andrews
Okay, so now they have 60 grand or something, bro. Now they have this TV with no wires, no anything. And you can suction it to any wall. It has four huge suction cups. You can, you grab the handles like this. You hold it and it's. And it tells you when the suction cup seal and the four of them do it. And you can put it anywhere.
- [28:58]
Sal Destefano
Wow.
- [28:59]
Doug
Sick.
- [29:00]
Sal Destefano
Wow.
- [29:00]
Doug
Yes. Sick.
- [29:01]
Justin Andrews
I, I looked up, I think I wrote down the name because I wanted to look into it to see how much they were.
- [29:04]
Caller
How big are the screens? Huge.
- [29:06]
Doug
Oh, yeah.
- [29:07]
Justin Andrews
It was like a normal, like a normal big screen tv. I'll tell you the brand so you can look it up. Because I wanted to look it up.
- [29:12]
Doug
It's called Displace tv.
- [29:14]
Sal Destefano
That's cool. Check that out.
- [29:15]
Justin Andrews
I know. Isn't that cool?
- [29:16]
Sal Destefano
All right, I got, I want to back up to fitness again because I, I, I, I read a study today. It was actually an article in New York Times. They examined the muscle of acti se of active 70 year olds. So they looked at muscle and they looked at it to compare it to the muscle of active 20 and 30 year olds. And you know what they found?
- [29:36]
Justin Andrews
Similar difference.
- [29:37]
Doug
I bet I was going to say no different.
- [29:38]
Sal Destefano
770 to 20 70.
- [29:41]
Caller
70 active.
- [29:43]
Sal Destefano
7 year olds. Aren't all 7 year olds active.
- [29:45]
Caller
Yeah, exactly.
- [29:46]
Justin Andrews
This just, there was no difference. This just reinforces the argument that I'm always trying to make on here about this, you know, misnomer of getting older. It's so, it's so much, all these things are bad and everything goes down. It's like, well, that's because they're not doing anything. It's not. If they were staying active through their entire life, then a lot of those, all these negative markers that we talk about aging wouldn't be there. And there's a perfect example. If you're telling me that a, you're comparing a 70 year old and a 20 year old's muscle fibers and it's like if they're both active and working out, they look pretty damn similar.
- [30:17]
Sal Destefano
It's like what changes is your ultimate potential. Right. So a 20 year old's potential for how much they can lift, how fast they can run maybe up here, and a 7 year olds is down here, but there's still a ton of potential there.
- [30:29]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [30:30]
Sal Destefano
Now here's the deal. As your potential goes down, the bottom goes down as well. Like, like the worst shape you can be in your 20s, it's pretty bad. The worst shape you could be in your 70s is deadly. Right. So you can keep yourself somewhere in that middle range just by maintaining activity and exercise. And when they look at these things in a lab, by the way, the cardiovascular fitness of these 70 year olds was very similar to fit 40 year olds.
- [30:58]
Caller
Oh, wow.
- [30:59]
Sal Destefano
So it's remarkable what you can do just by staying active as you get older. It's literally there's nothing that comes close to proper exercise in that category. You know, the fountain of youth.
- [31:11]
Caller
Yeah. I mean it would seem that like it's, it's mainly all the, the habits that you've created that over a longer period of time that, you know, with, with eating and with sleep and all that.
- [31:21]
Sal Destefano
One caveat, I didn't say this. These were 7 year olds who have been exercising for 50 years or more.
- [31:26]
Justin Andrews
Oh yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.
- [31:28]
Sal Destefano
It's more likely to start working out. Although you start working out 70, you'll see great results. These were people who've been exercising active most their lives. Speaking of longevity, there's so this, I read this, I knew this already, but I forgot all about it. But you hear often about how you get to reduce meat consumption because meat's bad for you or whatever. Some of the longest lifespans are in Hong Kong. Maybe, Doug, you can look up, you know, lifespan or longevity in Hong Kong. Hong Kong also has the highest per capita meat consumption.
- [32:01]
Caller
Really?
- [32:01]
Sal Destefano
They eat more meat than almost anybody.
- [32:03]
Doug
Hong Kong, you've brought that up before.
- [32:04]
Sal Destefano
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you could look up, Doug, their, their meat consumption versus other countries. So they eat some of the most meat and yet they're also the longest living, but you know, they, they tend to like conveniently exclude Hong Kong when it comes to a lot of these different things. But they eat a ton of meat. I'd love to see what the stats are on that, Doug, how much they.
- [32:24]
Justin Andrews
I think I've heard you bring that up before. I think you've talked about Hong Kong being one of the highest.
- [32:28]
Adam Schafer
This is pretty crazy. The average person in Hong Kong eats 664 grams of meat, which is basically two 10 ounce steaks per day.
- [32:37]
Caller
Per day, the average.
- [32:39]
Doug
Wow.
- [32:40]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [32:40]
Sal Destefano
That's a lot.
- [32:41]
Justin Andrews
That's really high for average.
- [32:43]
Jim
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:44]
Caller
Pretty crazy, all this meat.
- [32:46]
Adam Schafer
I don't know. But yeah, pork, chicken, that's largely what their diet is made up.
- [32:52]
Sal Destefano
And what's their longevity compared to the rest of the world?
- [32:54]
Adam Schafer
Yes. So women 88.1 years.
- [32:59]
Sal Destefano
Wow.
- [32:59]
Adam Schafer
And men 82.5.
- [33:02]
Sal Destefano
What is that compared to like other countries? Like 70, 72, 88 for women. Holy. That's average.
- [33:09]
Justin Andrews
Almost a whole decade more. I think.
- [33:12]
Sal Destefano
So.
- [33:12]
Jim
Yeah.
- [33:13]
Adam Schafer
For the US boy, the average is 77.5. Let me see if I can find.
- [33:19]
Sal Destefano
Male, female, you know, and that's, that's a, that you think, oh, 10 years. First of all, it's a law. But it's also their health span. I love. Dr. Seeds says this a lot, like what's your health span? Not just how long you're alive, you're, you're, you're not dead, but how long you're able to like have good health, maintain health. Yeah. Which is, you know, the most most important thing. Yeah.
- [33:36]
Adam Schafer
Men in the US 74.8, women 80.2.
- [33:39]
Caller
Wow.
- [33:40]
Sal Destefano
So that's a big, that's a massive, massive difference.
- [33:42]
Justin Andrews
A whole decade. And like you said, like even more importantly like the quality of that life for sure. You know, speaking of meat and protein and stuff like that, I wanted to bring up something that I see going viral right now and, and we knew this right, with the kick up of GLP1s, but you see these videos now of the scare tactics around the, of osteoporosis and people are linking the GLP1 to osteoporosis and it's just like we've known this forever. If you eat extremely low calorie and low protein and you don't exercise, that's going to happen to you. Even in a young healthy adult. If you do not eat enough calories, you do not eat enough protein and you do not strength train for an extended period of time, that's going to happen. To you, with you taking anything or not. It has nothing to do with that.
- [34:32]
Sal Destefano
GLP1 doesn't cause bone and muscle loss. It's the severe reduction in calories and, and then the lack of focus and attention to strength training and protein intake. You know, look at the osteoporosis rate with anorexics. It's through the roof. Right. And these are, you know, oftentimes very young people. Yeah, but it's not the GLP one. I know. There's that one video. There's this young woman that's like, you know, I lost all this weight and I go to the doctor and they said, I have osteopenia. I wish I knew, would have known that this would have caused. Which by the way, you could reverse if you started lifting some weights and ate some more food and some calories. That's my fear. My fear is that for some people, I think it'll still be a net positive, but I think for some people, they're going to trade one problem for another. They're going to go from I have overweight problems to I have frailty problems. So they're not going to necessarily be better off. In fact, if you look at the data on the issues and chronic health issues and longevity and quality of life with obesity versus frailty. Frailty is worse. Being really underweight is actually worse than being overweight many times. Yes.
- [35:36]
Justin Andrews
I mean, because that's going to be. That, that would, that would really suck if this ends up, you know, because it ends up being a net positive temporarily and then over time ends up being net negative because so many people don't exercise and, you know, don't eat enough protein. That'd be really unfortunate to see that because I think it has an incredible potential benefits for some people. But like anything else, you're going to have a percentage wild.
- [36:02]
Caller
Wild posts about GOP 1 lately, especially the one I heard guys talking about it being attributed to lizard venom.
- [36:09]
Justin Andrews
Oh, I. Okay, I've heard snake venom.
- [36:11]
Caller
Lizard venom, venom. And then I've heard that like within a year you're looking at thyroid cancer. It's just, it's.
- [36:17]
Doug
It's wild.
- [36:18]
Justin Andrews
What is it derived from? Do you know what's derived from?
- [36:20]
Sal Destefano
No. So they're what they're comparing Google Magic there does like. It's like you'll get them. You'll get the digestive system of a gila monster is what they'll say because they're. Because it slows down gastric emptying. So they're using the. An example of an animal. It. It's. It's really strange because this is the first time misleading this. Okay.
- [36:36]
Justin Andrews
So there's people that literally are saying it's derived from freaking lizard.
- [36:41]
Caller
Lizard venom.
- [36:41]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [36:41]
Justin Andrews
Or snake venom.
- [36:42]
Caller
Is snake venom.
- [36:44]
Sal Destefano
I don't know about that. But if it.
- [36:46]
Caller
Blood pressure.
- [36:47]
Sal Destefano
But it's not the same thing as injecting yourself. Snake venom.
- [36:49]
Caller
No, I.
- [36:50]
Sal Destefano
So, okay, so here's the deal. What you have here are two of the most powerful, influential industries in the world. They're fighting right now, and they're both super powerful, make a lot of money, and there's a lot of corruption and weird shit that happens to both of them. Okay. You have the heavily. The processed food industry, which is a behemoth monster, which is already. They've influenced policy for a long time now. They're the ones behind the food pyramid. And you know, this is healthy. That's not healthy.
- [37:22]
Caller
And you know, sugar studies.
- [37:23]
Sal Destefano
Yes. So there's that. And then you have the pharmaceutical industry, which is another monster that has its own. And both of them are fighting. Yes, you have. Now the pharmaceutical industry has.
- [37:32]
Caller
Want to control the messaging.
- [37:33]
Sal Destefano
Has this drug that makes you eat less. And the food industry is like, oh, what do we do? And so it's like the propaganda wars with these two monsters, which is really.
- [37:40]
Caller
We're gonna go through that for a while for sure.
- [37:42]
Sal Destefano
What's it say there, Doug?
- [37:44]
Adam Schafer
There's a lot of scientific mumbo jumbo.
- [37:46]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [37:46]
Sal Destefano
That's not.
- [37:47]
Adam Schafer
It's an exogenous glucagon, like peptide. GLP1 is derived from a pre.
- [37:53]
Sal Destefano
I don't think. I don't think they're extracting it.
- [37:55]
Justin Andrews
You're not. You need to go. I think they're a better way to have Googled that is. It is derived from the snake venom that instead of saying Just put GLP1.
- [38:02]
Sal Destefano
Snake venom.
- [38:03]
Doug
Yeah.
- [38:03]
Justin Andrews
Because if you do that, it's going to give you that.
- [38:05]
Adam Schafer
I think it's made in a lab.
- [38:06]
Sal Destefano
It is. It is. I don't think they're taking snakes and extract.
- [38:09]
Justin Andrews
I don't think so either, but Justin brought that up. I didn't bring it up because I thought it was ridiculous too. The fact that Justin's been hit with somebody saying it. I've had a couple people trying.
- [38:17]
Caller
I know people have hit me up about like, is this true? And I just. I want to make sure that we at least put it out there.
- [38:22]
Sal Destefano
Okay, that's. See, this is so dumb. Snake venom proteins have been studied as potential treatments for diabetes and a hormone in Gila monster. That's where it was. Venom inspired the development of these.
- [38:35]
Caller
Inspired it.
- [38:37]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [38:37]
Caller
So they create in the lab, but.
- [38:38]
Justin Andrews
They'Re not actually scientists discovered that Gila1's venom contains a hormone like molecule.
- [38:43]
Caller
So that's even then. Whatever.
- [38:44]
Sal Destefano
That's where they got the idea and then they developed.
- [38:47]
Caller
But I knew they were working on too even with snake venom it was blood pressure because they found that that was effective. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that that's a problem anyway, like.
- [38:58]
Justin Andrews
Yeah. Right.
- [38:59]
Caller
It's just like we learn a lot from nature.
- [39:02]
Sal Destefano
GLP1s are, are going to be incredible for the right people done the right way and for the wrong people done the wrong way, they're gonna be terrible. That's it. That's the bottom line. It's, there's nuance here. Everybody, people who are like all, all on one side versus the other. That's not, that's not the case with something like this.
- [39:17]
Justin Andrews
No, no. There's gonna, I mean we've already been, see, we've seen it enough already been massive for people. I mean it's been life changing for people.
- [39:25]
Doug
So.
- [39:26]
Sal Destefano
But I've cases where we see people are like, oh, you know, why are you on.
- [39:30]
Doug
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:30]
Justin Andrews
So I mean I agree you're going to see, you're going to see both. But I mean to me, and this is why I really wanted to experiment with it myself is so I could feel it and I think communicate it from that perspective. And I tell you what, in my experience, I've never had anything that made the abstaining from super palatable addictive foods so easy.
- [39:56]
Caller
Yeah.
- [39:57]
Justin Andrews
That, that, that in itself was.
- [39:59]
Caller
And, and just it's empowering just for that fact.
- [40:02]
Justin Andrews
That's right. Just creating that space to not feel.
- [40:05]
Doug
Like you have the.
- [40:06]
Justin Andrews
Because let me tell you, I know I'm just, I don't even think of myself, but I've had lots of clients.
- [40:10]
Doug
Who really have struggled with this that.
- [40:12]
Justin Andrews
Would tell me, Adam, it is like white knuckling at night. Like to not go.
- [40:16]
Sal Destefano
This, this is how I like to communicate it. So you, when you think of an addiction, I know people argued, oh, there's no such thing as addiction to hyper, you know, processed foods or addiction to eating a particular way. That's, I don't think I, I, I disagree completely. I think there are real addictive properties and for some people they're worse than for others for a lot of different reasons. But there are the physical, physiological effects of the addiction and then there's the psychological. Okay, so you smoke every day. Okay, you smoke every single day. It's a habit. You enjoy it. I can replace the nicotine you get from the cigarette. That's going to get rid of the physiological withdrawal of not smoking, but you still have the behavior in the association with it. This is why, by the way, nicotine patches and gums are better than nothing, but they're not a cure because they use the nicotine and they get that physiological effect. So it's not pulling as strongly, but they still miss the smoke, the whatever. Right. And so you'll talk to somebody who smokes. This is what happens. Well, what happens with the GLP one for some people. And look, we're speaking from experience. Remember, we trained people for 20 plus years. I worked with enough people who had to lose a lot of weight. And through my compassion and understanding experience, I was. It's like, this is not the same for them. This is very hard. They're dealing with something that I don't, I've never experienced. And gosh, I wish there was a way we could, we could take the edge away a little bit. And that's what a GLP one does. It will take away that pull that feels incessant. That's constant. Now, they still can have some of the pull to the food because I still get stressed. I used to reach for food, but I'm not hungry anymore, but I still need something to. And so sometimes you'll see this. In fact, we worked with people in our group. We did group coaching a little while ago with people on GOP ones. And there was. I remember there was a couple people in there who said, you know what? I'm not hungry, but I still feel myself reaching for these foods when I'm stressed.
- [42:11]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Sal Destefano
Remember that?
- [42:12]
Doug
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:12]
Sal Destefano
And it was like, that just highlights what I'm talking about. So what you do with these individuals is you take away that strong pull, you give them time to break free from that behavior, and you replace it with another behavior that can supplant it. So maybe now when you're stressed, instead of reaching for food, you do this other thing or you attach it to something else, and then you do this over the course of a year or two years. And then you, you break those chains and you develop new behaviors. And this is the best strategy that I've ever seen, ever, where you can combine that with good coaching, with proper strength training, where we might actually be able to cure people in the sense that we can take people who have a 1% chance of doing this forever.
- [42:53]
Caller
You're not going back.
- [42:54]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. That week. And then you keep the GLP1 in your back pocket because. Okay, we did it for two years. You're no longer reaching for food like you used to. We. That hunger signal wasn't there, so it made it easier. Now let's take you off. And then they're like, oh, my God, I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Oh, my God. I'm starting to veer back a little bit. All right, let's go back to GLP1 for a month or two or three. And then I think we have a good strategy for those people, but for other individuals, I think there's better options. And I don't think it's great.
- [43:18]
Caller
It's unnecessary.
- [43:19]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [43:19]
Justin Andrews
For every single person.
- [43:20]
Doug
Yeah.
- [43:20]
Justin Andrews
Speaking of our group coaching, super excited to do this transformation 1. I think this is going be interesting. How long until that starts? Doug, when does this go live? Right now, the episode that we're on now.
- [43:30]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [43:30]
Adam Schafer
This is the 21st. So in two weeks.
- [43:32]
Justin Andrews
Two weeks. So two weeks away from.
- [43:34]
Sal Destefano
So we did already. We already did group coaching once, so we're going to do it again. The last one was for people on GLP1s. This one's for people who are looking to transform their bodies.
- [43:43]
Doug
They're.
- [43:44]
Sal Destefano
Come back.
- [43:44]
Caller
Yeah, come back.
- [43:46]
Sal Destefano
Get me back into shape. But it's very small, very limited, because we're not going to blow this up for a while. We're going to keep it small and it'll be run by our trainers, but we'll be popping in. So this. This will be.
- [43:56]
Caller
There's a lot of psychological games with that.
- [43:58]
Sal Destefano
Oh.
- [43:59]
Caller
As you saw in Adam's journey with that as well. But, yeah, that's. I think this is a powerful tool at your disposal to have coaches in your corner and really talk you through.
- [44:08]
Sal Destefano
All these things and then working with other people. It's mindpumpgroupcoaching.com where you can sign up.
- [44:12]
Justin Andrews
Hopefully it's still available by the time we're talking about this.
- [44:15]
Doug
I think so.
- [44:16]
Sal Destefano
Maybe not. How many episodes would have had an.
- [44:20]
Adam Schafer
A few handful?
- [44:21]
Sal Destefano
Five. Well, we'll see. We'll see. Maybe we'll do. Maybe we'll do another.
- [44:24]
Doug
Well, if it gets. I tell you what, if it's.
- [44:25]
Justin Andrews
If it's that full by the time.
- [44:27]
Doug
This goes already like that, then we.
- [44:28]
Justin Andrews
Maybe potentially run two separate groups. I don't know. We'll figure something out.
- [44:31]
Sal Destefano
But, dude, I gotta tell you guys about. I had a observation at the gym the other Day that just reminded me of such a. There was a huge change in gym layouts that happened about, I want to say, 15 years ago that I totally forgot about. So you guys all worked in gyms that had, you know, were started in the early 90s? We all did, yeah. And then right around like 2000 or so, they changed one segment of the layout significantly because they noticed people enjoyed it more, worked out more because of it. And it was how they placed their cardio. Do you guys remember what it was.
- [45:08]
Justin Andrews
Where it was facing? Yeah, yeah.
- [45:10]
Caller
So we could watch every workout.
- [45:11]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, yeah. Remember back in the day, Cardio was watching TVs.
- [45:14]
Caller
Yeah, TVs.
- [45:15]
Sal Destefano
We had a bunch of TVs. Then they figured out that people would rather watch other people work out.
- [45:20]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:20]
Sal Destefano
And. And it was way more successful. There's nobody watch TV when they do cardio.
- [45:24]
Doug
Yeah.
- [45:25]
Sal Destefano
They watch other people.
- [45:26]
Doug
Yeah.
- [45:26]
Sal Destefano
It's so crazy.
- [45:27]
Justin Andrews
What is that about us as creatures? Right? Because that looks hard. I mean, that's something that Katrina and.
- [45:33]
Doug
I always joke about.
- [45:33]
Justin Andrews
Like, admittedly, like, I, I love to have.
- [45:36]
Sal Destefano
Nothing's more interesting than people.
- [45:38]
Justin Andrews
People watch.
- [45:38]
Sal Destefano
You know what's more interesting?
- [45:39]
Doug
That's why too.
- [45:40]
Justin Andrews
I used to love, love. My favorite gym of all the ones I worked at was the Santa Teresa one. Because you had that glass window right by your desk and so I could look out, watch everybody on the floor and just. It was comical, you know, every day you saw something that was characters everywhere. Yes, yes, yes.
- [45:55]
Caller
And they all had. You're like, where did they come up with these routines?
- [45:58]
Justin Andrews
But what is that pool? I mean, I know I have it. I know there's a pool to want to watch. Watch people.
- [46:05]
Sal Destefano
Humans are social. There's nothing more interested than people.
- [46:07]
Doug
Is that what it is?
- [46:08]
Justin Andrews
Is something about me is just super curious about.
- [46:10]
Sal Destefano
Look at the shows on TV we watch. We're watching other people's lives and stories.
- [46:14]
Justin Andrews
You know, I. You're funny. You bring that up how I, I just was talking about that there was something, some. Another. Some other reality show. I'm like, man, isn't it wild to think that our generation, we, we. We had television pre and post, you know, reality tv. And it's crazy when you look back, like there was a time, you guys, when there was like no reality tv and then there was like one or two shows that started do it. And now when you look at like Netflix, like 90 of it is so everything some form of. And there's like, there's like 10 spin offs of every successful one. Like you Know the, the voice or the. Whatever the singer one is. There's like 10 different versions of that. And there's 10 different versions of Love Island. There's 10. I mean there's like so many just.
- [46:58]
Caller
Trip out on these like mundane jobs. Like you're, you're a pawn shop owner and you're like, you know, just selling people like everything. You know, it's like. Or you're trying to bid on like some storage unit. You know, it's like. It's so funny.
- [47:14]
Doug
It's just like, it's a, it's a.
- [47:16]
Caller
Bit, we're all curious.
- [47:17]
Doug
It's a bit sad that we're interested in other people.
- [47:20]
Sal Destefano
People are interested in people. There's nothing more.
- [47:22]
Justin Andrews
It's so mind numbing content though. It's like nothing useful coming from that.
- [47:27]
Doug
Really.
- [47:27]
Justin Andrews
Like, come on there. What are you, what are you getting from. I mean, I guess if you were into, if you were into Storage wars and actually in that business it would make sense I guess to watch a little bit of that because that could add some value maybe. But most of it is drama based. Most of it is just Soapa. It's like the modern day soap opera.
- [47:44]
Caller
They all hate this one guy because he's like all like branded out. I've actually watched this. He shows up in this van and they're like, oh, there's Rick. You know, they're all talking about Rick and then you know he's gonna. If he bids this, I'm going to bid this. Yeah, they're all like, you know, colluding against them.
- [48:01]
Sal Destefano
I just love like you mentioned that the gym in Santa Teresa. I like. One of the things I loved about working in a gym was watching people. It's my favorite thing to do in the world. Eat your lunch and just watch the gym floor. It's so better than any TV show you could ever.
- [48:15]
Doug
How is.
- [48:16]
Justin Andrews
So how. How else do you think the gym has evolved? Like the things that we've watched. We watched the evolution of. Remember there used to be women's rooms. That doesn't exist.
- [48:24]
Sal Destefano
Oh, women's weight rooms.
- [48:25]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, they used to have their racquetball.
- [48:28]
Sal Destefano
Doesn't exist anymore.
- [48:29]
Caller
Yeah, then they had the circuit training section only. Do they still do that?
- [48:32]
Sal Destefano
No. So funny. The big gyms saw the success of CrossFit.
- [48:37]
Justin Andrews
Weight Watchers.
- [48:38]
Sal Destefano
No, not Weight Watchers.
- [48:39]
Justin Andrews
No, it's.
- [48:40]
Sal Destefano
What was it called? The, the circuit. The women's circuit.
- [48:44]
Doug
Curves.
- [48:44]
Sal Destefano
Yes, they saw curves and they. Oh, we're gonna do that ourselves then. Functional training.
- [48:48]
Caller
Yeah. Now we had the. The turf. And then turf came into.
- [48:52]
Justin Andrews
So supposedly I just saw of someone doing a video clip that does all the gym news or what that. Talking about how that's evolving now too. Yeah, that it's. They evolved to have all this grass, but now they're moving away from it because it's a bunch of wasted space. Because like it was like novel for a while. Everybody wanted to do it and then nobody's using it. Now you have this huge footprint that you're.
- [49:14]
Caller
I was the only guy using it.
- [49:16]
Justin Andrews
So it's going to be interesting to see. And then the.
- [49:18]
Doug
The.
- [49:18]
Justin Andrews
One of the most popular new things is outside is moving a lot of equipment outside because. Which is funny because that's what we got in Cove. It was by.
- [49:25]
Sal Destefano
I love that.
- [49:26]
Justin Andrews
That.
- [49:26]
Doug
I love that too.
- [49:27]
Justin Andrews
I think it's a great idea. So a lot of. A lot of gyms that are being built now are building a outdoor indoor version, which is just smart from a business. When you think about what happened to us in Covid. I got. In case that ever happens again. We'll be set. We'll be set with this outdoor setup. But I thought that was really interesting.
- [49:42]
Sal Destefano
I always thought of a gym design where the. The ceiling would retract. I would love that. Like, if it's sunny outside, you pull it out and just work it out in the sun.
- [49:51]
Justin Andrews
You know why you don't just not enough money in that space.
- [49:53]
Sal Destefano
Of course. Of course. What would I do? I'd spend $10 million on a gym. Take me 50 years to make my money back.
- [49:58]
Justin Andrews
It'd be interesting to see what are the. Some of the most profitable facilities right now.
- [50:02]
Caller
What I've seen now is the more luxury gym. Like that's really. A lot of them are popping up now and even like at Santa Cruz Athletic Club is kind of like trying to do that, but. Well, they have. The hormone doctor specialist is there. They got the re. The recovery part where they have the Normatec boots and they got like, you know, cold plunge. And then they have like all these things kind of set up for like these biohacking kind of options. And then over here it's like. Then you have the rest of the gym and then you have, you know, the training. And so it's. It's interesting because like, people are kind of demanding a lot of these.
- [50:37]
Justin Andrews
Oh, we. We watch the. The middle of the row. Middle of the row gym get destroyed.
- [50:42]
Sal Destefano
Destroyed.
- [50:43]
Justin Andrews
It doesn't exist.
- [50:43]
Sal Destefano
It's either. Super cheap.
- [50:44]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, exactly.
- [50:45]
Caller
Super cheap.
- [50:45]
Justin Andrews
You want to pay the $19 fitness gym place or what's the other purple one or whatever. Like, you play that $9, $20 fee or you're on the other extreme where you're paying 150, $200 a month for like the spa type of all the amenities. It's like there's nothing in the middle really anymore.
- [51:02]
Sal Destefano
How was your. How was your. You went down to LA and you.
- [51:04]
Doug
Oh, yeah.
- [51:05]
Justin Andrews
How was your.
- [51:06]
Caller
Yeah, I went down to la.
- [51:07]
Justin Andrews
It was environment seven hour interview or something like that.
- [51:10]
Caller
Yeah, because we did like a. A whole vlog and everything ahead of time and so, like a workout.
- [51:17]
Josh
Yeah.
- [51:17]
Caller
Oh, yeah, yeah. Which is like, you know, it's always a little awkward. It's. It's just like. Well, I didn't really know what to expect because I, I haven't actually met Justin. He was the guy that actually interviewed me, but I met him through my friend Jake. And so they knew that I was actually friends with Brandon Chapati. And so I got to actually hang out with Brandon Shapati at his gym at Rise Above Fitness. So they kind of worked it out so we could go there, which was fun because it was. It was great to, to see him again. And his gym's rad. It's like totally my vibes, like really crazy metal playing in the background and then cardio sucks, like in big letters.
- [51:52]
Justin Andrews
You know, like, we gotta have the editing team post some photo. I know Doug took a bunch of photos of all of us when we worked out down there years ago. That was like, what, eight years ago?
- [52:01]
Caller
What's so cool?
- [52:02]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, a long time ago.
- [52:03]
Caller
Brandon was telling me, like, there was meetups, there was mind pump meetups that were happening a lot even after we had just been there one time. But, like, they were like connecting and, and hanging out at Rise Above Fitness. And so it was cool because we had like, kind of. Our community was going to that gym a lot, but yeah, so we did. So I didn't know what to do. I mean, the guy's like, coming. He's like, oh, lead the workout. You know, I'm just like, oh, great. You know, like, I don't, like, I don't work out with people. I'm sorry, it's not my thing. So I ended up taking him through. I didn't know if he was gonna try to ego lift and like, try and outlift me or something. And so I was like, well, I better like, do a good warm up. And so I started going through mobility and I was making him do, you know, just some stick mobility stuff and some 9090 and some, you know, just like, three basic, like, mobility moves. And he's just like, ah, what is this? Dude, like, completely never had. Had attempted to do any of these types of moves. Movements. I was like, it was cool. He appreciated it because he's like, wow. I feel like, you know, everything's tracking. I feel everything is.
- [53:06]
Sal Destefano
Is.
- [53:06]
Caller
You know, like, he felt really good after that, but we. We really didn't work out. We were just kind of lifting weights, shooting the. So I was like, oh, thank God. It wasn't like, you know, he was, I'm gonna bury you. And, like, you know, we're gonna get on film.
- [53:19]
Sal Destefano
Hey, so you. You've been working out a lot late. Have you taken a day off yet or. Or.
- [53:25]
Caller
That's another reason. That's another reason why I was worried.
- [53:28]
Sal Destefano
Because I've seen two of his workouts out here, Adam.
- [53:31]
Justin Andrews
So the opposite of me, right? Can we not be more different or what?
- [53:35]
Sal Destefano
I swear to God. I swear to God. You don't have. You have two speeds. You don't have any of the speeds you have off or 100 hard. No.
- [53:42]
Caller
Yeah, hard. Like, you know, cruising.
- [53:46]
Sal Destefano
There's nothing like that.
- [53:47]
Caller
So, no, I wasn't intentional because, like, I. I was trying to get in film sessions so I could bank them before, like, because, you know, people are gonna be gone next week. I don't know what the schedule looks like. And Dylan was like, hey, let's do work. I'm like, I just did it yesterday. I'm like, I'll be fine. I'll just, you know, I'll do a lighter one today. And then I realized, oh, yeah, they want to film and. And do a workout. As I get there tomorrow, it's like, this is not gonna be good. So I tried to do different movements, but, yeah, you know, I'm.
- [54:19]
Sal Destefano
I'm.
- [54:19]
Caller
I'm threshold. You know, I'm. I'm towing the line.
- [54:22]
Sal Destefano
You already. Your body's responding already. I can already tell. Can you tell?
- [54:25]
Doug
Yeah.
- [54:26]
Justin Andrews
Are you. Now. Are you doing anything else in a. Like, I know right now the role for the audience that doesn't know, like, you're doing a whole series right now, the goal is to get to 315, push, press. Is that right?
- [54:36]
Caller
Yes.
- [54:36]
Justin Andrews
And are you. Are you messing with the diet at all? Are you, like, trying to mess with recovery stuff? Or you're just purely programming around mobility and progressive overload to get to the point where you can do that? Like, what's the.
- [54:48]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [54:48]
Caller
Mobility, progressive overload. And then, I mean, honestly, this first Month. In general, I'm not. I'm not pushing the boundaries of, like, strength or, like, maxing. I'm. I'm not, like, adding a lot of load. Like, it's really minimal, so it's really just getting. Reinforcing the entire structure and frame and getting, like, good stability. So it's not, like, as crazy as you as it looks. Although it is. I. I will admit it. It's. It's too frequent. I could space it out a lot more effectively and that would help my body because it. I did have some days, like initially, the first, after. After the first two workouts, I was. I was feeling it, you know, and I had to do a lot to. To kind of recover. But now I'm. I'm actually hitting. Hitting a stride and I'm feeling good and it's like my strength's coming back.
- [55:41]
Sal Destefano
Your body's changed and. And if I. I swear that less than a week, it's already changed. This will be fun, dude.
- [55:46]
Justin Andrews
And are you. Are you messing with anything nutritionally or are you just kind of doing what you normally do?
- [55:50]
Caller
I'm.
- [55:50]
Sal Destefano
I'm.
- [55:51]
Caller
I'm upping my calories and I'm upping my protein intake and really making an extra effort in the morning especially, so. Good morning. I'm really.
- [55:58]
Sal Destefano
What are you having for breakfast?
- [56:00]
Caller
So I'm like, like just four or five scrambled eggs and. And bacon and sausage and everything else you could find in the house. And then as I'm going out the door, I'm like, chugging down a away protein shake.
- [56:13]
Sal Destefano
This is a good time.
- [56:14]
Caller
Yeah, dude. I'm like, loading it.
- [56:17]
Sal Destefano
I can't wait. Moose. Justin.
- [56:19]
Caller
Yeah. I haven't been gassing you guys out yet or anything, so I'm not like.
- [56:23]
Justin Andrews
So you're good?
- [56:23]
Caller
Yeah, I'm like. I'm like, again, like, with the training, they're kind of both, you know, I'm. I'm towing the line. We'll see how this goes.
- [56:29]
Sal Destefano
It's awesome. Element is an electrolyte powder with no artificial sweeteners, no sugar that has the right amount of sodium, except it can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue. It can help give you energy. I like it because I get incredible pumps in the gym when I drink Element before and during my workout. Go check them out. Go to drinklement.com mindpump and on that link you'll get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase. All right, back to the show. This segment of the podcast is brought to you by trainerwebinar.com if you're a trainer or a coach or aspiring to become one, go to trainerwebinar.com Adam and I do free coaching and courses on how to teach you how to be more successful. Go check it out.
- [57:13]
Adam Schafer
Our first caller is Jim from Australia.
- [57:15]
Doug
What's going on, Jim?
- [57:16]
Sal Destefano
Jim, what's happening? How can we help you?
- [57:17]
Josh
This is more surreal than I thought, boys. You guys are actually real.
- [57:22]
Doug
What's up, buddy?
- [57:22]
Sal Destefano
How you doing in the flesh.
- [57:25]
Josh
I'll just put my coffee down, boys. Now, boys, I'm going to go off a script. My wife keeps telling me that I waffle on too much and I go on tangents all the time. So I thought if I stick to a script, I'll best utilize your time.
- [57:41]
Doug
Right on.
- [57:42]
Caller
All right.
- [57:42]
Josh
Your message is getting out there almost through osmosis, and. And that's powerful. I personally haven't experienced anything like this, like your. Your approach or your type of advice in the 50 years that I've been doing this stuff. So I hope you guys keep it up.
- [58:00]
Sal Destefano
I hope.
- [58:01]
Josh
I hope you guys don't change your formula or your approach because I want this message going out to my kids and now my grandkids. So very much appreciated.
- [58:10]
Sal Destefano
Thank you. Okay. Thank you.
- [58:13]
Justin Andrews
All right.
- [58:13]
Josh
It's my challenge, boys. Psychopenia is a you guys in your mid-40s, so you'd start to feel the effects just a little bit, but you could put it off as, you know, didn't get enough carbs the last 24 hours or something like that. But when you get to your early and mid-60s, trust me, boys, she becomes a vengeful bitch. And that's the core of my challenge or my question or my problem. Anyway, let me set up a framework for you. I'm 66. I'll be 67 next month. I picked up my first weights when I was 16 years old, and really, I haven't looked back since. Mind you, back in those days, I came from a very, very poor sort of background. My mum was a single mum. It was only me and my brother and no money for anything other than food and a roof over our heads. So I had to be quite.
- [59:16]
Sal Destefano
What's the word?
- [59:17]
Josh
Probably creative in terms of my first sort of gear that I created in the early 70s. So what I did was I made a bench out of an old bed head. So it's an old wooden bed head. I cut it out. I used pillows for the base, and I just strapped it all down for my weight stands. I used. Well, I re appropriated. Maybe there's a better word than that. A couple of stop signs from our local council. Hopefully they won't be listening. And cut off the stop signs and I just cut a slot and that was my weight, that was my weight setup for wow, wow, five or six years. But anyway, it just shows you if you're committed you, you can do it no matter what. All right. Since then I've lived a life. I'm still married after 44 years to my gorgeous wife. I've raised three beautiful successful children and I'm now a non nor and sal. You appreciate this. Both myself and my wife are of Italian heritage. I'm Sicilian. My wife comes from the north of Italy, a little place called Belluno north of Venice. So we constantly have debates on what being Italian really is because it's so far apart. Anyway, through all these chapters of life I've kept passionate through my weight training all being with varying degrees of motivation, availability. Life gets in the way sometimes and I've had my own setup in the garage here for about 30 odd years. So I've got no excuses.
- [61:01]
Sal Destefano
All right.
- [61:01]
Josh
Fundamentals. Been weight training 50 years. I weigh 78 kilos which is about 172 pounds 175 centimeters tall, which is about 5 foot 9. But I'm shrinking. Another beautiful aspect of getting older. 27% body fat. According to my scale this morning I average about 25, 2600 calories a day. Always prioritize my protein. I get about 160 to 180 grams a day. For instance, this morning I'm going to have chicken thigh fillets for breakfast, which much to my wife's disgust now I've always trained a four day split. And that's part of my question that I'm coming to you guys with. I currently bench 200. I do squats and power lifts. I know I've heard you guys go over and over and over this. I haven't done squats or power lifts for most of my training career. I've only just started. The reason being is I've always thought it puts too much pressure on my lower back. And some of the big gorillas I used to train with in the 80s and 90s, they've all got back issues now and I sort of justified that in my, in my mind. But I'm coming around and I'd like, I'd like you to hammer that into me. I guess in my training career I've torn a peck, I've torn a lap, I've dislocated My shoulder about four or five times. I've torn my right bicep in half. I only have half a bicep in my right, in my right arm. All these things to show you that I am committed to what I do. I love it, absolutely love it. I don't train hard anymore, but I am consistent. All right, what's my question? I suppose I am starting to waffle on even.
- [62:59]
Sal Destefano
Even with this.
- [63:01]
Caller
Bloody hell.
- [63:03]
Justin Andrews
Not my wife to write this.
- [63:08]
Josh
All right, my question. Look, guys, I've been listening to you for about two years now, ever since my daughter came to me and said, hey dad, I'm getting married in six months. So I thought, oh shit, I've got to get back to some sort of stick or some sort of look, I guess. So it took me six months to go through my traditional four day split routine with some real weight, what I thought was some real weight. Constant injury and rehabilitation. Adam, I'm really associated with you and what you went through lately. Pure, utter frustration and not being able to do anywhere near what I thought I was capable of. And that realization created havoc in my psyche. Boys. I'm not the man I used to be anyway. I'm a stubborn Italian. I don't believe there's much new in the game since I purchased my Joe Weider bodybuilding system some 40 odd years ago. A squat is a squat is a squat, a bench, bench press is a bench press, a curl is a curl. There's not much new in this space in my mind, although I did change when Arnie came out with these supinating bicep curls, I thought, shit, that's a good idea. I wrote to you guys a couple of months back saying, hell, I'm stuck in this four day split routine. I can't do anywhere near what I used to do. I wanted some ideas. I wanted someone to just hit me across the back of the head and say, jim, do this or don't be stupid or whatever. But in writing that email to you guys, there was a realization. I went out and bought Maps Anabolic. Now it's the first time I bought anyone else's program in 40 odd years. And I put my faith in you guys. But I got a problem. I don't think there's enough volume in it for me. At the end of phase two, I'll start phase three tomorrow. And I used to do five different exercises of four sets each just for my chest. Twice a week. I'm going down to just two exercises a week or three exercises a week for my chest. It's still in my head, in voice. I'm looking for guidance. I'm looking for inspiration. I'm looking for advice. Now after that diatribe, what can I do? Boys, what's your advice?
- [65:58]
Sal Destefano
You're doing really good, Jim. I mean, you've been doing this for so long, I'd probably be the one asking you questions because of the experience you have with what you're doing. So don't discredit the wisdom that you've developed over decades of training your body. I would say the struggles that you have are the struggles that most of us have when we strength train, which is, am I doing the appropriate amount and do I have a tendency, tendency to overdo it? This is probably why you've in, you know, you have those, those, those muscle tears that you experienced in your career, just pushing it a little too hard. Just like those guys you talked about who have all bad backs now from, you know, squatting back in the day. What they, it wasn't the squat that hurt them. It was that they, they did a weight or a rep range or volume that was inappropriate. And I get that when you train at the extremes, you sacrifice things. When you train at the extremes, you sacrifice technique a little bit. And if you're squatting 400 pounds, 500 pounds, if your technique is off by 2 degrees, you might not notice. But you do that long enough and it starts to develop problems because the weight is so heavy. So. But I think you're doing a great job. And really just you gotta ask yourself, now that you're following a different program, do you feel different? Do you feel better? Are you noticing any changes in the positive? Um, and if the answer is no, then I would say go back to the, the higher volume. We've been doing this for so long, Jim, that you're gonna know your body pretty well. But if you also know that your tendencies that overdo it and you're looking objectively like, you know what? I kind of feel stronger. I kind of feel better. I think things are improving or this might even happen. Nothing has changed, but I'm doing less. Well, that also is a clue that you might be doing more than was necessary before. And you can devote a little more time to maybe other forms of physical activity like mobility and flexibility work, which, you know, a lot of us tend to, tend to avoid. But that's really it. I mean, you've been doing this for so long. I love talking to people like you because you have a lot of insight, especially when it comes to your body, that I'M not going to have. It would take me a year of training you to have even close to the insight that you have. So. And by the way, the whole comparison thing, comparing yourself to your, you know, how you used to be, that's not fair. Compare yourself to other 66 and 67 year olds. How are you around your friends that haven't strength trained for 40 years? Is there a difference between the two of you? Of course, massive difference. I mean, the typical 67 year old doesn't look like you can't move like you. Doesn't work out like you doesn't have your energy. So, you know, that's. If you're gonna do a comparison, that would be a little bit more fair. And you're. You're light years. I'm looking at you right now on camera for somebody who's. Would you say 66, 67.
- [68:42]
Doug
I hope I look holy. I hope I look like that at 66. That's my goal. So, I mean, Jim, you're. If you were my client with the experience, knowledge, and where you're already at, physique wise, you know, you're the type of person that I would let steer a little bit here, even though I'm the professional, this is my thing, I would go, hey, you know what? If you think it's that low volume, Jim, and you can handle a lot more or you want to do a lot more, I would let you toggle over to something like Maps aesthetic and then we would compare. But that's. I would make you do that, though. I'd say, let's be honest with oursel and ask the questions that Sal's saying, like, are you, are you fully recovered? Are you as strong or stronger? Do you feel as good? Like, because those are two very different programs as far as volume's concerned. So they're very. When you look at all of our programs, they're probably the two ends of the spectrum, right? We have Maps Anabolic, which would be considered our base kind of program as far as volume is concerned. And then Maps aesthetic is towards the other complete end of the spectrum as far as it's too much volume for most people. And. But you're experienced enough and know your body well enough that I would let.
- [69:43]
Justin Andrews
You go that direction.
- [69:45]
Doug
And then I'd just be asking you, like, all right, Jim, be honest with me. Like, how you feeling? How are the joints? Do we feel stronger? Do you feel better? Do you. And, and if you're telling me, oh, man, Adam, I am. That's what we needed, then we're going to rock that program. But if you're like, you know what, oh man, my elbows, my knees, I just are, we're going backwards in weight and then it's like, yeah, too much. So I would do that with you.
- [70:05]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. The other thing too, Jim, you want to consider is your tolerance for volume. Even though you're getting older. There's two, there's two competing forces here. Age will reduce your body's ability to handle volume and frequency, but practice, and especially over decades, increases that ability. I've told the story many times of going to work with my dad as a, I think I was 16, a 16 year old, you know, full of energy. And my grandfather, my Sicilian grandfather came to visit and him and I were taking turn mixing cement, just buried and my Sicilian grand in the hot sun. It was like 90 something degrees and he just destroyed me. And I was a 16 year old kid, worked out, you know, all the time and he just murdered me. And you know, you know, he'd been doing that kind of work since he was, you know, 8 years old. So even though he was much older me. So you, you probably do have a pretty high tolerance, but you just got to be honest with yourself and don't fool yourself because we tend to fool ourselves. Like, you know, what you can tolerate isn't necessarily what's ideal, right? And then one thing I'll say to you about the squats and deadlifts and you, you mentioned like in, you know, the decades you started strength training, those exercises started falling out of favor a little bit for a while now. You go to the gym, everybody's doing them. The best way for you to approach those lifts that you're not experienced with is don't treat them like a lift, treat them like a skill. So when you go do your squats, don't think to yourself like you do when you work out, you know, with a bench press or a curl. Just go and say, I'm going to just practice the skill and get good at it. And so you're not even trying to like really work your legs really hard yet or anything like that. You're just trying to get really good at the skill that'll get you, that'll move you in the right and you'll get better results that way. But if you, if you approach this lift that you haven't done this whole time you've been strength training like you do the lifts that you are really good at, then your risk of injury is going to be really high.
- [71:46]
Doug
Jim, did you watch the series I did on YouTube. Did you watch that whole series?
- [71:51]
Josh
I haven't watched the whole series now.
- [71:52]
Doug
Yeah, I mean that, I think that would be good. You know, I, you, I, you kind of referred to it. I didn't know how much you, you saw of it or not. But I, I mean, I don't know. I think, you know, we've, you've got more experience than I do, but I've got a lot of experience lifting. And you know, I tend to play the same game of like, I can tolerate, I can do more and then constantly reminding myself I don't need to, I can get just as good of results with half of the intensity that I used to train with. And so you know that that's what I meant by like allowing you to train in like something as high volume as Maps Aesthetic. But then I'm checking in with you on a weekly basis and going, how you feeling? Like, you know, be honest with me. Do you feel better? We're doing twice as much volume right now. Are you feeling like you're getting more results or you feel like you can handle it, but you're not getting any better results than I'd be questioning? Like, well then why are we doing all this, Jim? Why are we doing all this extra work and you don't feel better than what we're doing, half the work. So I would just challenge you and make sure you, you are being honest with yourself. And, and, but like to Sal's point too, maybe you do because you have built such a high tolerance. You respond better at that higher volume program and you feel better. And if you do, then like Maps Aesthetic is the program for you.
- [72:58]
Caller
At the end of the day, it's not going to hurt you, right? It's an experiment. If you haven't really gone through the whole process of it, it's an experiment. And then it, the most it's going to hurt is your ego because, you know, you want to keep going and pushing. And so, you know, maybe that's something to work on. I don't know. It's, it's totally like the, that's why we challenge ourselves in so many different directions. That's what's beautiful about fitness and health and, you know, trying to improve and grow. So I mean, at your age, like, you're killing it and you know, whatever you haven't done is, I mean, that's kind of like where the grass is.
- [73:30]
Doug
I mean, I would love to do this with him. Like, you're on phase three of Maps Anabolic.
- [73:34]
Sal Destefano
The, the volume goes up quite a bit in your phase three right now.
- [73:38]
Doug
So I would. I would love Doug to send you maps aesthetic, and then I would love for you to go through maps aesthetic, and then I'd love to have you back on the show, and I'd love to hear your opinion of comparing the two programs and being honest with your journey through both of them. And which one.
- [73:53]
Caller
Everything you hated and loved.
- [73:55]
Doug
Yeah. And what was better for you? I mean, you've got enough wisdom in that weight.
- [73:58]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. You could even probably go in the middle if you find a little more. But aesthetics too much, you know?
- [74:04]
Doug
But I'm gonna have Doug's. I'm gonna have Doug send that to you.
- [74:08]
Justin Andrews
Boys.
- [74:08]
Josh
That sounds like a great, great approach. And for my psyche, that's what I need. I think. I think I need to have that as a comparison and push myself back to how I like to push myself. You guys know it. When you're pushing these things, it's such an ego boost just to. Just to feel your body. It doesn't have to be a big weight just to feel your body. So I appreciate that, Adam. I think that's a. That's a great idea, boys. I. I'd like to try that.
- [74:39]
Doug
I love that. I'm gonna have Doug send that to you. The one thing I'm asking you. Finish maps anabolic. Finish it off. When you're done, check your waist, your weight, kind of write down your. Your numbers on your main lifts that you know that you objective to get some numbers right. And, you know, really observe. Like, okay, how do I feel? How's sleeping? How's the joints in? Okay, cool. Now I'm on the maps aesthetic. Let's run that sucker, and then we'll check back in with all those stats. And if you haven't improved with adding that much volume, then to Sal's point. Well, what the Are we doing? There's no reason to be doing that much more volume, intensity if it didn't improve you. And so let's see if it does. And if it does, then the. The other point is true. You're. You. You have built a physique that needs more intensity and volume for so many years of conditioning like that. So let's test it out. Pull our ego out of it, and let's just see. And let's see what the numbers.
- [75:26]
Sal Destefano
By the way, what you said about nothing. Nothing. Not much has changed. You're right. Like, a lot of the wisdom that we pull comes from stuff that will, you know. Yeah. That we've known.
- [75:37]
Caller
Stray away From.
- [75:38]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, so you're right. Not much has changed at all. The only. The only advantage we have is that we've trained a lot of different people and we learned how to communicate to a lot of different people. But I don't. I'm not gonna know you the way you are. No way, man. It would take me. It would take me years of training you as a personal trainer, even close to being able to get that kind of insight. So, you know, consider that, if anything, it would be more of a. Just a check, you know, like, hey, you're going a little too hard. It's like just like one of these guys would do with me if we were working out together.
- [76:09]
Doug
But you'll be. You'll be a great person for our audience to hear from. So I would love for you. I want you to do it.
- [76:15]
Sal Destefano
Let's get that set up.
- [76:16]
Doug
Yeah, let's do. Let's do anabolic. Finish it, then we're going to send over aesthetic on us. And then I'd like to schedule another call in like two or three months with you and hear your feedback. I think it would be great.
- [76:27]
Josh
Boys, you didn't disappoint. Thank you so much. It's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thank you, boys.
- [76:32]
Doug
Awesome.
- [76:33]
Josh
Appreciate it.
- [76:33]
Sal Destefano
You got it, my friend. Thank you, Jim, thanks for the inspiration.
- [76:37]
Josh
Thanks.
- [76:38]
Sal Destefano
You know, people need to know this. When you're a guy like that in the gym working out, that's way more impressive than you. That inspires everyone in the gym. Yeah, it's. This is what I love about gym culture. The old guys in the gym are getting all the respect and admiration. I mean, and you could see it there. He was proud of telling us.
- [77:00]
Doug
It's also more impressive to me than the 25 year old IFBB Pro. It's more impressive to me. It's. It's one thing to have proven that you have the discipline to build an awesome physique in a period of your life. It's another thing to have made it.
- [77:14]
Sal Destefano
Go through every season of life. Yes.
- [77:17]
Doug
In your mid to late 60s and look that good and have that much vitality.
- [77:22]
Sal Destefano
And I'm going to be very clear. And this, you know, this is just straight up for coaches and trainers to humble themselves a little bit. None of us in this room, as experienced as we are, are going to be able to train him or understand him the way he does because of his experience. We've just trained lots of different people, so I might be able to train lots of different people. But if Jim hired me, it Would be a lot, a lot of my coaching for him would have been, let me, let me ask you questions. Let me help check you, because you.
- [77:48]
Doug
Might exactly why I said I would let him steer. I would say, hey, you feel that way? Okay, let's get into maps aesthetic and then let's compare the two. And I know how dramatic of a difference in volume that is. And then all I would do would challenge him to be honest with himself and just say, hey, how did you feel when we finished?
- [78:05]
Sal Destefano
It's like I would need.
- [78:06]
Doug
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I'm not gonna come try and tell you what to do.
- [78:10]
Sal Destefano
You're going to show me?
- [78:11]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, I was.
- [78:12]
Doug
Okay, well, let's try this for a little bit and then together, let's be honest with ourselves. And you know, I'm there. So it holds them accountable to being like, oh, you're right, I, my bench is about the same or down, you know? You know, you're right. My knees.
- [78:24]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [78:24]
Doug
And it's like, yeah, bro. And we're doing twice as much work. Like, is that what you want to do is twice as much work for the same or less results, or would you like to do half the work and get the same results?
- [78:32]
Sal Destefano
I tell you what, man. To see a 66, 67 year old man look like that, talk like that, whatever, like could. Is there anything that can sell mustache goals? Yeah, anything that could sell strength training better than that? Nothing. It's incredible.
- [78:46]
Adam Schafer
Our next caller is Josh from Tennessee.
- [78:48]
Sal Destefano
Josh, what's happening going on, Josh?
- [78:50]
Caller
What's up, Josh?
- [78:51]
Kayla
Hey, guys, how's it going?
- [78:52]
Sal Destefano
Good, good. How can we help you?
- [78:54]
Kayla
Well, so I'm 43. I've been lifting pretty consistently since I was about 14 or 15. Of course, times throughout life there's been different life's demands and stuff, but I've pretty much always stayed active. The challenge though is ever since I've hit 41, doesn't seem to matter what I do. I don't see the physical results that I'd like to. I've tried changing up workout plans, you know, tweaking diet. I eat about 80% clean. Nothing seems to work the way that it used to. I've had a couple setbacks over the years. Went through a divorce. Tennis elbow that lasted for about 2 1/2 years. Did lots of PT with it. Still dealing with some issues with that. I've had like constant stomach distension for about two years. I've seen GI docs, seen normal docs, seen like functional medicine, doctors. Nobody's been able to Kind of pinpoint that one had a PT who said I had very little diastasis recti, but nothing that would lend to that. I've had a scope done upside to this, during all this, I've gotten remarried, have awesome wife. We've got five kids combined, ages 11 to 17. I'm just wanting to be in the best possible shape for my wife and kids. You know, kind of disappointing, you know, get remarried and you don't feel like you have the energy that you did when you're younger. Feel like that's kind of like a less than scenario. Kind of feel stuck in a dad bod situation no matter how much kind of effort put it in and change things up. Just wanting to get some advice. I want to continue being inspiration for my boys who they've started working out in the past year. And then I've got a almost 16 year old daughter who of course I want to just look jack jacked enough that any guys wanting to date her think twice about anything.
- [80:55]
Sal Destefano
Absolutely. Awesome. I love that.
- [80:57]
Doug
Give me, give me a little bit more on your definition of 80% good on the diet. So like, so obviously you, there's, it's not perfect. And so what are the things that you tend to mess up on or don't do so good?
- [81:10]
Kayla
It's more so I'd say like eating 80% clean, 20% processed in that sense.
- [81:16]
Doug
So mostly whole foods. Okay.
- [81:17]
Sal Destefano
Okay.
- [81:17]
Kayla
Yeah, mostly whole foods. I have like one day a week, Friday morning that I go to a men's prayer breakfast and it's like down home southern cooking. So I don't know, I can't skip out on that. But outside of that, try to keep it pretty clean.
- [81:31]
Sal Destefano
Do you. Okay, so I need a little bit more information. What does your workout look like now? How is your sleep? Do you have, how is your stress levels? And then let's start here. You talked about your gut distension. Yeah, they, I'm assuming they did testing for parasites, Sibo, everything.
- [81:52]
Kayla
Yes, parasite, sibo, C Diff. They did a scope to just see if there was anything internally going on. They said I had very minimal hiatal hernia. But the GI doctor was like there's no reason that like from her perspective that that should cause anything.
- [82:12]
Sal Destefano
And you've done elimination diet to try to identify anything?
- [82:15]
Kayla
Yeah, I went gluten free, did keto, did dairy free, those kind of things.
- [82:20]
Sal Destefano
Okay. Okay, so let me tell me about your sleep and your strength training routine because I know you got five kids, married, you work, so we got the, you know, there's already high stress there. What does your sleep look like? How often are you consistent with it? Is it good or do you wake up like you're tired?
- [82:39]
Kayla
I'm consistent as far as like, bedtime. What time I get to bed, what time I set my alarm for. Sleep's been off and on, honestly since the divorce. But, like, lately I can't seem to get more than about six and a half hours of sleep. But that's typically interrupted in the middle of the night. Goal. Go ahead.
- [83:01]
Sal Destefano
What interrupts your sleep? Are you just waking up?
- [83:04]
Kayla
Just wake up. I'll wake up pretty consistently between about 2:30 and 3:15. Okay. I can even. Let's go to bed at 9. I could even wake up at 12:30, pop a melatonin in in the middle of the night to just try to stay asleep until my alarm goes off and I'll still wake up.
- [83:26]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Okay. All right. And now tell me about your current workout.
- [83:31]
Kayla
Most recent current workout routine. I did, I just came off of a, like a deload week and just started something new this week. But before that I was kind of doing a. I'd say like a combo between Dorian Yates and Mike Mentzer approach. Yeah. Doing weightlifting three days a week. But, you know, like, one day was legs, we'll say. Another day was back and buys, and another day was shoulders and arms. Trying to just get. Seeing if I needed more rest and recovery for each body part. And then in between those days, do abs and zone two cardio.
- [84:06]
Sal Destefano
Okay, so you're going to failure. And beyond like that, like, like blood and guts or heavy duty?
- [84:12]
Kayla
Not. Not in that part. I wasn't falling to the extreme just because with my elbow even having been through PT and everything, I can't always seem to go to complete failure because of the elbow, if that makes sense.
- [84:26]
Sal Destefano
It does. And then your, your gut. Does it get. Do you notice gut issues after you eat? Like. Or is it just always kind of feel that way?
- [84:34]
Kayla
It just always kind of feels that way. I mean, it'll feel worse if, say, like, I've eaten a bigger meal. Just kind of like, okay. Even if I didn't have the gut distension, you know, you kind of eat too much. You're like, ah, why did I do that?
- [84:46]
Sal Destefano
The symptoms of waking up, like, like restlessness is what. Is. How you would label that. Gut issues tell me that your body is dealing with stress. That's above and beyond what you can adapt to or tolerate at the moment. Now, the challenge is what we tend to do is we Tend to look at what we're dealing with and we judge it and say, well, I used to be able to handle more, but for whatever reason right now, those are classic signs that it's just you're not able to handle what's happening right now and you need to go through maybe a prolonged period.
- [85:20]
Doug
Also explains why you're not seeing the results that you want to see for what you're doing.
- [85:24]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, you're not going to get results. You'll have gut issues and you'll have sleep issues. You also may notice things like libido issues, hot cold, intolerance issues. Energy will feel either wired or tired. So you're not going to feel kind of nice, clean energy. That might be one of them.
- [85:39]
Kayla
Yeah. Pretty tired all the time.
- [85:41]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [85:41]
Doug
Have we had our hormones checked?
- [85:43]
Sal Destefano
That was exactly where I was going to go next.
- [85:45]
Kayla
The last time I had my hormones checked were about, I think close to two years ago. And testosterone was like between like 420 and 440.
- [85:54]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, I'm going to have you. So here's the two things I'll do. I'm going to send you maps 15. That's the program you need to follow. Do the barbell version. There's inside that program you have the suspension trainer version and the barbell version. Do the barbell version. Don't go to failure. Follow that. I think that'll be more appropriate. And then I want you to go to MP hormones.com, talk to people there and you get a hormone panel done and then talk to them about peptides for recovery and healing. You're probably a pretty good candidate for bpc, KPV capsules for gut, and then what they're gonna doso. The difference between a traditional doctor when it comes to hormones and like these specialists is they don't just look at your numbers, they also look at your symptoms. And so, you know, total testosterone, 400, it's within range. But you're also. If you're also noticing symptoms of lower testosterone, then they'll probably bring you up to 800 or something like that, which is still within range. But that often makes a difference with somebody. And you're over 40. Are you planning on having more kids?
- [86:58]
Caller
No.
- [86:58]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, you're good. So I would go there, reduce the volume, and then. And only because you've already checked all the big boxes, like, if you hadn't seen a functional medicine practitioner, that's where I would send you first. But since you have and they've said, look, you're good. No sibo, no sifo. No, you know, parasites. We did a scope. We don't know what's going on, like, what's happening. Then I would reduce the volume, go, you know, work with a hormone specialist and if they recommend a protocol, try both. And that, that very well likely will turn things around a pretty dramatic way, especially a man your age. Okay, that's it.
- [87:39]
Kayla
Awesome.
- [87:39]
Doug
Yeah, there's not much to add to that. That's literally like the, the. That's why I was going right away.
- [87:44]
Justin Andrews
Was I would have you go check.
- [87:45]
Doug
Hormones and see that. Especially if the. Everything you've saying about the way you eat and you've trained for so long, you know, your body, like, there's something deeper going on that's causing. And the only thing that could exacerbate this is doing too much in the gym, thinking that you're not doing enough.
- [88:00]
Caller
Yeah, we're not going to outwork it.
- [88:02]
Doug
That's why. And so keep that in mind as you switch over to Maps 15. A lot of times guys are like, that are used because they've been training for a long time are like, oh, my God, this is. This isn't enough. It's like, yeah, it is. Especially in the context of where you're at right now, because every. All the signs are saying the body's overstressed. So, you know, hammering it even more in the gym is the last thing you need to do. And you need a more appropriate volume and intensity type program. 15 is probably the perfect.
- [88:26]
Sal Destefano
And this is just consider this, this isn't a permanent thing. So stress on the body can be cumulative over time. So right now this may be appropriate. You may come out of this and then go back to your old training because now that's more appropriate. So sometimes people are like, oh, my God, I'm just gonna do this, you know, 20 minute workout a day for the rest of my life. Probably not. But right now that's kind of where you're at because you're in a bit of a deficit. The last thing I'll add is if you do go on hormone replacement therapy, which you don't want kids anymore your age, it's appropriate for many men, even just for, you know, improving quality of life. That may fool you into going harder than you need to in the gym. So when you get on, if you do, you'll be like, oh, man, I feel like I'm 20 years old again. Like, fight the urge to go beat the crap out of yourself in the gym, because you'll just erase whatever Val, whatever extra value that you you know, new testosterone levels will give. You just still be smart about it.
- [89:22]
Kayla
How long do you think y'all to follow, like, the maps? 15.
- [89:26]
Sal Destefano
Oh, I would follow it until you felt.
- [89:29]
Doug
Yeah.
- [89:29]
Sal Destefano
Sleep was good, man. I'm sleeping throughout the night. I'm stronger again. I feel great. And then I would say, okay, let me see if maybe run another cycle of it, and then maybe move into, you know, slightly bump the volume into another type of program, but don't go crazy.
- [89:43]
Justin Andrews
And.
- [89:44]
Doug
And you can stay in that type of training for a long period of time. You don't. It doesn't mean you. You need to. I mean, I would. I would ride it as long as I'm feeling good and I'm seeing positive results. Results. I mean.
- [89:52]
Sal Destefano
That's right.
- [89:53]
Doug
And. And then only if I feel like, man, I've gained all this strength. I feel good. Good. I feel like I could do so much more, and I've been doing this for a while. Okay. Then maybe we can move to more. But, I mean, right now, I'd stay there until I. Until I got you feeling really, really healthy and really good.
- [90:06]
Kayla
Okay.
- [90:07]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. I love to send that to you.
- [90:09]
Doug
Yeah. I'd love for you to reach back, Josh, and give us an update.
- [90:12]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Let us know what happens.
- [90:13]
Doug
Anytime. We have a client that's. We're trying to troubleshoot what's going on, and you've already seen lots of doctors. I'd like to see how we can help.
- [90:19]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, I'd love to get you back on, like, 90 days, if that's all right.
- [90:22]
Kayla
Oh, yeah, I'd love that.
- [90:23]
Doug
Okay.
- [90:24]
Sal Destefano
You got it.
- [90:24]
Caller
Cool.
- [90:24]
Doug
Yeah. Follow up with us, Josh.
- [90:26]
Sal Destefano
Thank you, Josh.
- [90:26]
Kayla
Awesome. Thank y'all. Y'all have a great day.
- [90:28]
Sal Destefano
You too.
- [90:29]
Kayla
All right.
- [90:30]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. I mean, for people watching and listening right now, I wouldn't. I made the recommendation. I did. Because he did all the things first. Yeah.
- [90:37]
Justin Andrews
He already checked their box.
- [90:38]
Sal Destefano
That's it. Yeah. You know, and, you know, going through a divorce, five kids, like, it's no joke, you know? Change.
- [90:46]
Caller
Yeah.
- [90:47]
Doug
And if you're like a lot of men that you tend to do is. We bury it. That's right. Pull the Justin move. You know, Stuff it down there. You know, Stuff it down there, and I'm fine.
- [90:56]
Caller
Extract all the darkness.
- [90:58]
Doug
I'm fine. That was two years ago. I'm good.
- [91:00]
Justin Andrews
You know what I'm saying?
- [91:00]
Doug
It's like. No, it's still there, and it's manifesting in other ways, and a lot of times, that's what it is. When all these doctors can't see something when they can't put their finger on like oh, it's this one thing. It's like, yeah, it's because of what's going on is you're, you're suppressing a lot of that. So I hope he gets to the bottom of it. I hope, I hope we hear back from him and hear what's going on.
- [91:20]
Adam Schafer
Our next caller is Jeremy from Texas.
- [91:23]
Sal Destefano
What's up man?
- [91:23]
Doug
How you doing Jeremy?
- [91:24]
Sal Destefano
How can we help you?
- [91:25]
Jim
Hey, how's it going?
- [91:26]
Sal Destefano
Good.
- [91:26]
Jim
Nice to meet you guys. Little bit about me, a little background about me with my questions. I'm 43 years old. I'm married with two kids. I have a 12 month old, an 8 year old son. My career I'm a physician associate. I work in primary care with a growing focus on weight loss management, nutrition counseling. My fitness journey in my 20s I was very active worked at Ballytool Fitness as a fitness instructor. I was in the army but I focused in leaned very heavily on cardio. Though I struggled to build muscle and hypertrophic definition, life caught up to me just before I went to PA school and with shifts in the ER, bad habits leading to gradual weight gain. So by March 2023 I reached a turning point when hypertension, sleep apnea, GERD fatigue and low T made me make some serious life changes. So here's what I've accomplished so far. Weight loss I lost about £67. I went from 257 to £100 using mostly HIIT workouts and body weight workouts at first I also used compounded form of semaglutide to help out with the weight loss. Building muscle I discovered your podcast around October 2023 which shifted my focus to muscle building and sustainable progress. So in training progress I completed two rounds of maps anabolic three days a week gained about eight pounds of muscle. I'm currently or at the time of the email I was currently in phase four of symmetry Loving that really got a mind muscle connection for the first time. You know individually on on working unilateral and then nutrition I reverse dieted from really at the beginning of the first round of maps I was hitting about 2122 calories. I went up to 27 to 2800 calories now per day with about 200215 grams of protein despite the calorie increase at that point and neat I kept it about 10,000 steps. I leaned out from 25% body fat to 23 on bioimpedance scale.
- [93:54]
Justin Andrews
Excellent.
- [93:56]
Jim
And then my Main questions really would be what's next? So currently I jump back into Maps Anabolic. While I was deciding what I'm going to do next, I'm in phase two. I've really enjoyed Maps and Evolik. It's really. I'm getting my gains. Symmetry was wonderful. I'll do it again probably later this year. But I have a couple of your programs aside from the ones I've mentioned. Maps Advanced or Maps that are block advanced, mass 15 performance esthetic. My main question is I'd like to get down about 18 to 20% body fat, continue with my strength increasing. And I really enjoy Maps Anabolic. But should I explore some of the other programs for my goal? And then my next question would be should I continue going up or stay the same? I've kind of stabilized at about, at that point I was 196. I've actually put on another two pounds, which is muscle by bioimpedance. Should I continue increasing or stay the same? And then I have a question on your coaching program, whether that would be a fit for me. I more focus on obesity management. I have an obesity management certification as a physician. Physician associate. And I use that within my primary care practice. And I'm integrating, you know, a lot of weight loss management and nutrition counseling with my current practice. But I'm also planning on and doing a coaching program outside of that to help people with their, their transformations, just like I did. And so I was wondering if that would be a fit for, you know what? I'm looking to do it.
- [95:49]
Doug
To go ahead and do 100% and you're killing it. Yeah, you're like so, so on point.
- [95:55]
Sal Destefano
You have two options here, really. You could either, I mean, he's more now stay the course. Well, more than two options, but two options that I would, I would point to. You could either stay the course, keep your calories right about where they're at, because what looks like is happening is you're, you're burning Goldilocks, you're getting leaner and building muscle. So you're still building muscle. Body fat percentage is slowly going down. So you could just keep your calories where they're at and then ride that. You could also do mini cuts and mini bulks, see what that feels like. So go from 2700 calories or 2200 calories for a couple weeks and bring it up to, let's say 2900 calories for a couple weeks and see what that does. I personally, if I were you, I would kind of hover where you've been, where you've been at and just maintain and then the next program. Symmetry is great. You could go anabolic advanced. It is more intense. So just pay attention to how your body's responding to it. That might be another program that you go into.
- [96:45]
Doug
I have a different opinion. Go ahead.
- [96:47]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, yeah.
- [96:48]
Doug
I think this is. You're in such a cool place. You have a lot of options. I would love to bump you a couple hundred calories and move you to a program that's really different than anything else. You're doing like a map strong, you know, or an old timey strength like move you to a program that is kind of foreign as far as like the type of movements. And so you get this new stimulus that your body really hasn't seen in the last couple years. And because you where you're at to Sal's point of why he says you could just keep your calories like you're in that Goldilocks zone where you could probably eat right where you're eating, maintain your weight and just kind of slowly lean out and get stronger and, and that's a great place to be. And I've got no problem with you being there. But what would be fun to do with you is I think we could go up in calories again. And I think if I gave you a different stimulus and you're doing movements that is like this is foreign and new to me. Strong, you're going to get stronger, you're going to build more muscle and I think the metabolism is just going to keep going up which is only going to make getting shredded and lean leaned out easier down the road for you while also doing some fun new stuff. So if you're open to that, I would love to do that with you. And I think that you're going to respond great.
- [97:54]
Sal Destefano
MAP strong would be a great.
- [97:55]
Doug
I love that. I think MAP strong Bump your calories 250 calories or so and then I bet you still lean out. I think you lean out and you.
- [98:02]
Sal Destefano
Eat more now as far as the course is concerned, it's perfect for what you're looking to do. Perfect. I mean what we talk about is essentially how to build that business and what that looks like client relationship wise. Getting by the way with your background and experience. I mean that's a great. You're going to do great in that space.
- [98:21]
Doug
You got built in leads all day long.
- [98:22]
Sal Destefano
It's phenomenal. Yeah, it's really, really will work out well. So I mean you're going to do good with that for sure.
- [98:29]
Jim
For sure. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Every time that I do new stuff, you know, it just gets me, like, totally excited. So I like the idea of the strong program.
- [98:41]
Justin Andrews
Let me have.
- [98:42]
Doug
Let me have Doug send it to you. I'll have Doug send you strong. And I love the idea of bumping your calories and doing that.
- [98:46]
Sal Destefano
Jeremy, do you use a. A CRM at all to manage your business? Do you have anything that you use to kind of do the. The client relationship management tools, anything like that?
- [98:55]
Jim
Not yet, no.
- [98:56]
Sal Destefano
Oh, you're gonna love. You're gonna love. So let me have somebody reach out to you.
- [98:59]
Doug
Yeah.
- [98:59]
Sal Destefano
To talk to you about what we have for that. For that kind of stuff, because especially somebody like you. You're already a professional. You'll really appreciate and be able to utilize all of the things that it does. Be able to build just this incredible business.
- [99:11]
Doug
I love that. Yeah, have an call him. So I. We're going to send you over strong. Follow that. Bump the calories. 250 calories. And then on the business side, we'll have Ann call you and kind of show you everything that we're doing on the backside so you can see what you. Because I think you'll. You'll love that, too.
- [99:23]
Sal Destefano
Yep.
- [99:24]
Jim
Awesome. Thank you so much.
- [99:26]
Doug
You're killing it, bro.
- [99:27]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [99:27]
Doug
Great.
- [99:27]
Sal Destefano
Before and after. Holy cow.
- [99:30]
Doug
Excellent pathways.
- [99:31]
Sal Destefano
Really, really good. Dude.
- [99:32]
Doug
You did a great job.
- [99:33]
Sal Destefano
Thank you.
- [99:34]
Jim
That makes me feel. Feel really good. And so sometimes you lose sight of where you've come from and where you're going.
- [99:41]
Doug
Oh, you did great.
- [99:42]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [99:43]
Doug
Really, really good choices, the way you did it, too, and where you're at, metabolically. I mean, you're in a great place.
- [99:47]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Good job, man.
- [99:48]
Jim
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
- [99:50]
Doug
Right on.
- [99:51]
Jim
Totally. I just want to. Want to say thank you guys for what you're doing. I really am stoked on. On how much you guys put out Truth, you know, And I try to go ahead and put that value back into, you know, the people that I'm. I'm seeing on. On my end, whether it's medicine or, you know, the. The coaching side. So I'm thankful that. That you guys are available.
- [100:14]
Sal Destefano
Appreciate that.
- [100:14]
Doug
I look forward to seeing you in the program.
- [100:16]
Sal Destefano
Yeah, definitely.
- [100:16]
Doug
Yep.
- [100:17]
Jim
Awesome. For sure.
- [100:20]
Sal Destefano
Great job.
- [100:21]
Doug
Yeah. He killed it.
- [100:21]
Sal Destefano
Yeah.
- [100:22]
Doug
Yeah. What a great one. By the way, before and after pictures, you know.
- [100:25]
Sal Destefano
You know what? Every time I hear something, which is all the time. We hear this all the time. I get so frustrated because I saw another post the other day where they talked about the Myth of reverse dieting and how that doesn't work. It's like we have. So there's.
- [100:39]
Caller
So why are you deterring people?
- [100:40]
Sal Destefano
You just don't understand how it works. That's all you got to say. If we have so many people where they do this, they go up in calories, metabolism speeds up, and they get leaner. So you just don't understand why it's working. That's okay. We'll figure it out at some point.
- [100:52]
Caller
But it works somebody through that so they don't have that perspective.
- [100:55]
Adam Schafer
Our next color is Kayla from Texas.
- [100:58]
Sal Destefano
Hi, Kayla. How can I help you?
- [100:59]
I
Hey, everybody.
- [101:00]
Caller
Morning.
- [101:01]
I
How are you?
- [101:02]
Doug
Good.
- [101:02]
Sal Destefano
We're good. How can we help you?
- [101:03]
I
Yeah, okay, so I was recently sleeved back in August, the gastric sleeve. And I'm trying to obviously lose weight and build muscle. I'm going to the gym three times a week. But the only. I'm getting protein in most of my protein. With protein, Shakespeare and Greek yogurt. I have a hard time eating meat, so I only eat meat like once a day, and I'm only getting like 100 grams to maybe 130 grams of protein every day. Is that enough? And is it sustainable to only drink protein and eat Greek yogurt?
- [101:43]
Justin Andrews
Yeah, it's not bad. We're here.
- [101:45]
Doug
Yeah. Especially considering our situation. That's. That's not bad at all.
- [101:47]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. Yeah. There's. I mean, do you like eggs? No.
- [101:51]
I
No.
- [101:52]
Sal Destefano
Okay, that's fine. You're doing fine.
- [101:54]
Doug
Tell me.
- [101:55]
Sal Destefano
Dairy is a great source of protein. Greek yogurt's great shakes. You know, whole foods always, of course, ideal. But here's the deal. We're dealing with a different context here.
- [102:03]
Doug
Yep.
- [102:03]
Caller
Yeah.
- [102:03]
Sal Destefano
I mean, in your email, it says that you really, you know, eating meat is just so. And what I don't. What I wouldn't want you to do unless there was a medical emergency is sit there and force yourself to eat all the time. Because that's not worth.
- [102:17]
Justin Andrews
It's also not sustainable.
- [102:18]
Sal Destefano
You won't.
- [102:19]
Doug
You won't continue that forever. You'll end up. You'll end up going reverting. So it's not a good idea. Tell me a little bit about the three days a week training. What does your strength training look like?
- [102:29]
I
So I do a lower body day, an upper body day, and a full body day.
- [102:34]
Sal Destefano
Okay.
- [102:35]
Justin Andrews
You fall.
- [102:35]
Doug
Are you following anything particular or did you put it together yourself? Like.
- [102:39]
I
No, I have an online coach and I follow the program that she's given me.
- [102:44]
Doug
Okay. How's it been going so far, it's been going well.
- [102:48]
I
I've been going to the gym consistently for about four months now, and I do. I have gotten stronger in some areas, but some areas stay the same.
- [102:58]
Sal Destefano
Okay, when you. When you. So before four months ago, is. Were you doing any strength training or is this totally new?
- [103:05]
I
No, I was just walking.
- [103:07]
Sal Destefano
Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm gonna guess that the volume may not be appropriate because this isif. This is your first four months of strength training. You should see pretty consistent strength gains across the board. Unless your diet was really low calorie and really had a tough time eating in the beginning or something like that. Can you tell me how long your workouts take and how many exercises generally you're doing?
- [103:32]
I
Yeah, so about 45 minutes to an hour, and I do about six or seven different sets.
- [103:40]
Sal Destefano
Okay. That seems okay.
- [103:41]
Doug
It's not bad.
- [103:42]
Sal Destefano
No.
- [103:42]
Doug
I mean, I would prefer her on Maps 15 where she's doing just a couple extra.
- [103:45]
Sal Destefano
Can we send you a program to take a look at, maybe follow it? Follow one of our programs?
- [103:49]
I
Yeah, I would love that. I'd love to look at that.
- [103:52]
Sal Destefano
Okay. And how long have you been with your coach?
- [103:54]
I
Just the four months that I've been going to the gym.
- [103:57]
Sal Destefano
Okay. And you. You enjoy working with them?
- [103:59]
I
Yeah.
- [104:00]
Sal Destefano
Okay, good. We have coaches too, so if you ever wanted to change or try something different. We don't advertise it just because we're. We would get too many people that we could, you know, service or whatever.
- [104:11]
I
Right.
- [104:11]
Sal Destefano
But if you're happy with your coach and they seem to be supporting you, well, then stay the course, and then we'll send you a program that you can try out that's different than the one you're following, that. That we think might be okay.
- [104:21]
Doug
Sounds like you're on a pretty good track, though. I mean, if you're happy with your coach, you're seeing some strength chains, you're able to hit the 100, 130 grams of Pro or 110 grams of protein. That's good. You're doing good.
- [104:31]
Sal Destefano
Okay.
- [104:31]
Doug
Yeah. And obviously you've heard us say, and you know that ideally is whole foods, but again, context matters, and I, you know, I've trained many, many clients, you know, that have done this, and it's.
- [104:42]
Justin Andrews
Like, that's hard to eat a lot of.
- [104:44]
Doug
A lot of calories and a lot of food that way, solid food that way. So I think you're doing a great job. You're. What you're doing is far better than the person who just decides not to eat.
- [104:52]
I
You know, I am so happy to hear this because I truly thought y'all were going to say, no, no, that's not enough, and no, you need more animal protein or some kind of protein in. So I'm really happy, you guys. Thank y'all.
- [105:07]
Sal Destefano
You got it. Yeah. Thank you for calling in Kayla.
- [105:09]
Doug
Yeah, Keep it up and then if you have any more questions, reach back to us. All right?
- [105:13]
I
Okay. Sounds good. Thank y'all.
- [105:14]
Doug
Thank you.
- [105:16]
Sal Destefano
Yeah. For context, people know she's lost 40 over £40 already.
- [105:19]
Caller
Yeah.
- [105:20]
Sal Destefano
Substantial, you know, doing this.
- [105:21]
Doug
And she's strain training. She didn't say she's overdoing it.
- [105:24]
Sal Destefano
She's getting enough protein. That's the point. Like, could she take in more to be more ideal? Yeah, probably. But what you don't want to do is place the the wrong priorities and.
- [105:33]
Caller
The force feed and get in that.
- [105:35]
Justin Andrews
So hard with the client.
- [105:36]
Doug
I'm like so happy if my client is hitting her protein intake when they're, when that, when they've done that surgery, it's like it's so hard for them to eat. And so it's like just you consistently hit your protein is a huge win. And if you need to do it through shakes and Greek yogurt and things like that, I'm fine with that. I'm all good.
- [105:51]
Sal Destefano
Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is mindpumpjustin. I'm mindpump, Distephano and Adam's mindpump.
- [105:58]
Adam Schafer
Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically, improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super bundle at mindpumpmedia.com the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps sustainability. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day month money back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources@mindpumpmedia.com if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pumpkin.