← Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth
Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth
2562: Seven-Time Mr. Olympia Winner Phil Heath
01:54:57
Seven-Time Mr. Olympia Winner Phil Heath Dropping the scale and living life. (1:10) Uncle Phil. (7:35) Breaking down his attachment to basketball. (10:01) His path into bodybuilding. (19:15) When did he get into strict bodybuilding?...
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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:30]
B
If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump. With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews, you just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, we had seven time Mr. Olympia, Phil Heath on the podcast. It was a great conversation. Of course, we talked about bodybuilding, competing. We talked about life, we talked about spirituality, talked about training. You're going to love this episode. Now, this episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors, by Optimizers. They make Mass times. These are digestive enzymes for people who are into fitness. Okay. Digestive enzymes help break down proteins, fats and carbohydrates, improve digestion, get those nutrients to where you need them. Go check them out. Go to buyoptimizers.com that's B I O P T I M I Z E R s. Use the code mindpump10 for 10% off. We also have a sale this month, Maps Performance and Maps Performance Advanced, both 50% off. If you're interested, go to maps fitnessproducts.com and then use the code 3-50 for the discount. All right, here comes the show. Phil, welcome to the show.
- [01:42]
A
Yes, Legend, it's been a while.
- [01:44]
B
We've been wanting you on.
- [01:45]
A
For a little while, man, I've been wanting to get on here. Awesome. Finally.
- [01:49]
B
Awesome. Awesome. So I want to open with this. So you walk in and you've been retired now for a while. You, you look like you could get on a stage in a few months. Yeah.
- [01:59]
A
You.
- [01:59]
B
I asked you your body weight, you said you just full. Let's back up. First, I asked you if you weighed yourself. You said you just recently weighed yourself, but you had gotten rid of scales.
- [02:06]
A
Yeah.
- [02:07]
B
For a long time. Okay, so let's talk about that for a second. I want to talk about, like your size now and all that.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah. So I just didn't care to weigh myself anymore because it was becoming such an obsession, you know, being A pro bodybuilder, like anybody that competes or anyone that even works out, they're always checking the freaking scale multiple times a day. And I realized I'm on the scale way too much. I didn't weigh my food for a while. I just wanted to know what it felt like just to eat, train, rest, just live life. And I didn't want to put any unnecessary pressures on myself by weighing, you know, because if I get on the scale and say, oh, well, normally off season I'd be 275 to 280 pounds competing, 245 to 250. If I get on the scale now and I'm 245, 250, I'm going to feel less of myself. And I didn't want to put that on myself. So I just say, you know what, I'm getting rid of it. But come the new year, I'm like, okay, I need to know because people are going to ask. So I appreciate you saying what you said earlier because, you know, my intention wasn't to, you know, stop lifting or stop looking like a bodybuilder that could compete. I find it very valuable that I was able to walk away from the sport, you know, obviously, you know, earning those trophies and such, but then being able to have the option to say, you know what if I really wanted to do one more, I could and do it safely. But yeah, I love this part of my journey right now and not having that unnecessary pressure with the scales and stuff.
- [03:34]
B
Yeah. So you're, it's, it's, you're Talking about about 30 pound weight difference, which sounds like a lot to a lot of people, but not for a Pro. You know, 30 pounds lighter still makes you're still massive, tons of muscle. Was that intentional? Did that just come off with changes in training and supplements and all that stuff?
- [03:53]
A
Yeah, it just naturally came off. I mean, not running the same protocols and stuff, you know.
- [03:58]
B
Sure.
- [03:58]
A
Like having to be, you know, in the gym once, if not twice a day, six days a week, eating over 5,000 calories, you know, and we're talking like seven, eight times a day, which was a complete job.
- [04:10]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [04:11]
A
You know, just so much stress. Like I, I hated having to eat that much. I can get away now with literally eating twice a day and be happy and still maintain this size. So that's really what happened. I stopped eating as much and stopped training as hard and as frequent, to be quite fair. You know, I went through, I would say, I don't know if it's a Natural transition, meaning, like, emotionally toward the gym. But when I got done competing, I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore.
- [04:42]
B
You were Jim averse.
- [04:43]
A
You were really like, I just, you know, I was still getting in shape for a movie that I was supposed to be a part of. And then when that did not happen, I was, like, already spent. Because I did the 2020 Olympia in December 2020. I was getting ready for a film in July, and they wanted me a certain weight. They wanted me, like, they saw a picture of me, like, when I competed at 2:25-28. So imagine competing 20 pounds heavier, having to now go 20 pounds more for a movie role that you didn't appear in but still got paid. I was totally wiped. And after that, I was like, I need a real break. I don't even want to see the gym for, like, a few months. And unfortunately, with social media, you run into this problem where, like, if I'm not in a gym, you're almost not as relevant, so to speak. So you have to keep up, like, a certain type of physique. So I did that for quite some time. Just like, you know, going in there knowing my strengths and weaknesses, just like, I'm just going to, you know, train. I can get pumped and still look the part. And, you know, the transition, it was really, really tough. You know, I cannot. I cannot always put into words, like, how it felt. It was very depressing, you know. Cause you would think, like, oh, you won all these titles and stuff. And I'm like, but I retired still knowing that I could compete. And I think it was just one of those times where you had to say goodbye to something, but you didn't know how to welcome something new. And, you know, I think that's a regular progression for people at a high level. I was able to talk to some of my friends. Like, Tim Grover's a great friend of mine. You know, I asked him, I was like, how was, you know, the late Kobe Bryant? Like, how did he, you know, like, what was in his mind? He was like, yeah, you're kind of a lot like him. Like, you always want to go, go, go. And I was like, well, how was mj? He was like, same. I was like, do you have nightmares about, like, wanting to continue to do it? He goes, that's gonna stick with you forever because you're just a competitive dude, so you're gonna have to find something else that you can be competitive at. So what I've done now is just have a different emotional attachment to Food, different emotional attachment to working out. And it's been a lot. I'd say easier. But I will say, like, when I get into the gym and let's say I train a whole month, I start feeling like the dream killer wanting to compete again. So I'm like, this weird situation where I'm having to keep him away, keep him satisfied, because who doesn't? I don't know how to describe it. Like, imagine being in this body. Like, you can transform into the greatest, one of the greatest of all time. And even me saying that, I'm like, it's not even arrogant anymore. It's actually real Tyler Schwarzenegger. Like, holy crap. Like, and you can get pumped and hop on some gear and actually probably go compete at a very high level and beat some guys. And then you have your fans who just want one more, and then you have to tell them, every show you go to, I have something else. And, you know, but overall, I mean, I'm very blessed. I thank God so much. And I've had to literally take advice from my wife and say thank. Like, I have to look in the mirror and thank my body for what I put it through. Because there's bodybuilders in pros that aren't here.
- [08:03]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [08:04]
A
So I have to be very much in gratitude for what I accomplished. Have you been able to shuttle any.
- [08:10]
B
Of that into mentoring other bodybuilders? Or, you know, have you kind of taken anybody under your wing or. Because I know how difficult that is is like a.
- [08:20]
A
An identity thing, especially as an athlete.
- [08:23]
B
And, you know, you could just jump up there and compete and beat everybody.
- [08:26]
A
Out, but are you able to use.
- [08:28]
B
Any of that energy elsewhere?
- [08:30]
A
So every Expo I go to, I feel like I'm like Uncle Phil to all these younger guys, you know, And I've been that way throughout my career. Like, anytime I go to Expo, you know, people line up. I'm never the type. Anyone that is queued up to meet me, they know that I'll spend time with them. I'll answer all their questions. I don't care what it is. So to do mentorship, I mean, I've taken that on. I've worked with different collegiate athletes because they're now dealing with a lot of performance anxiety because of the nil deals that they receive that they earn. So now they have a lot more pressure than ever before, and they need to talk to an athlete who's been there and have expectations and how they deal with media and all that. And then just as far as pro bodybuilders my number has always been the same. I think they may feel a lot of them don't hit me up, and I don't know why. Part of me believes that maybe they just think they're wasting my time, or maybe I'm going to tell them too much of the truth, or they think, you know, maybe I'm just too busy. But anyone, any pro that has ever came up to me and said, hey, champ, like, what do I need to do, bro? Like, with the sponsor, with travel, with peeking for a show, like, what do you think? Even their coaches, like, I'm, like, throwing out Free game now. I'm not your adversary, you know, so I'm. I'm using that nickname. The gift is like, here, just take it. I've earned all this stuff. I need to share it with someone. But I've helped a couple guys that have gotten ready for shows whose coaches just couldn't get them right. And not to undermine their coaches, because I would tell their coach, like, hey, I'm going to step in and I'm going to show you how to kind of tweak here and there. And they're like, yeah, sure, no problem. But, you know, I look forward to the conversations, and I think it's a great opportunity for me to connect with the current pros in all divisions. To be quite fair, let's back up.
- [10:32]
B
A little bit, because competition is something that you've been involved in for a very long time. Before we were a bodybuilder, you were highly competitive in basketball.
- [10:41]
A
Yes.
- [10:42]
B
And I've heard this from people who did really well in sports that it's very difficult to move away from because they gained so much from the competition, from a target, from aiming after something. What got you into basketball? Was that your way out of anything or towards anything? What was your attachment to that?
- [11:03]
A
Oh, well, I think it was growing up in the 80s, and, you know, you're seeing guys like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, I mean, who didn't want to fly, right? I mean, it was just the greatest times. The 80s were the best, dude. Yeah. And, you know, I loved football as well, but, like, my mom was, like, against it because, you know, she was like, this impact, like, I can't be okay. I'm an only child. So she's like, I can't have my baby, you know, getting hurt, you know.
- [11:30]
B
You've been a rad football player.
- [11:31]
A
Yeah. I'm like, mom, like, I have big calves and, like, you know, like, you're built for it.
- [11:36]
B
Yeah.
- [11:36]
A
I should have Done that. But with hoops, it was something that it doesn't. It requires a team. But really, you could play by yourself. You just need a basketball and a ball, right? And. And if you don't have a basket, you can practice throwing the ball up against the wall, dribbling. You know, you could work on your defense. Like, you could do so much cool stuff. So, you know, I found myself being highly competitive at that at an early age. And then, you know, I think it was when, you know, when you're a kid and they measure you that height and they tell you, like, this is you're going to be 6:2, or you're going to be 5, 11. They told me I was going to.
- [12:14]
B
Be the projection or whatever. Yeah.
- [12:15]
A
They told me I'd be like 5, 10. And I cried my eyes out. I was like, no, no basketball player can make the NBA at 5, 10. You know, they're like, yeah, spud web, Mugsy bugs, you know, but that's like, so rare. And I think we know them because.
- [12:28]
B
They'Re the only ones.
- [12:29]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [12:30]
B
I know there's like two guys.
- [12:31]
A
So at least looking back, I'm like, man, you're. You're pretty smart, young Phil. Like, you knew, like, the percentages, like, it was not in your favor, but I looked at that as a challenge, and I. And I just wore it like a chip on my shoulder. Like, I might be height challenged, but heart challenged.
- [12:47]
B
No.
- [12:47]
A
You know, I'm going to show more heart. I'm going to run faster than you. I'm going to, you know, oh, I can dive on the floor with a loose ball. Like, I'm going to do that better than you. I'm going to hustle harder than you. I'm going to be smarter than you with how to run the offense. I'm going to make sure I don't turn the ball there. I'm going to make sure I hit the open man. I'm going to make sure that I knock down those free throws. I want to make sure I can finish with my left hand, like, all those little things. And I had great coaches, too, you know, that just really were perfectionists. And I didn't look at it as, like, a bad thing. Like, you know, that was back in the day where coaches could really get in your face and yell. And I responded well to it, to be honest. Like, so for me, basketball, to see a ball go through the net was great, but later on, be able to dunk, that is the most. I think that's the coolest thing Any athlete can do other than maybe ufc knocking a guy out, like with some cool street fighter, you know, move or something, you know what I mean? Like, other than like being able to do that. But that's like inflicting real bodily harm on another human being.
- [13:53]
B
Can you still dunk, by the way?
- [13:54]
A
Hell no.
- [13:56]
B
I was gonna sit down and see that.
- [13:57]
A
I wish, dude. I'd be real viral if I was going. Oh, my gosh. I think the last time I tried, I was. Yeah, I was in Denver. We had a. We were at the gym. It was like the gym was open on Thanksgiving. I think it was like, it was an odd year. It's like either 07 or 09.
- [14:15]
B
So you're. You're bodybuilding?
- [14:16]
A
I'm already bodybuilding.
- [14:17]
B
How much you weigh it?
- [14:18]
A
I was like, 270.
- [14:19]
B
270.
- [14:20]
A
And one of my buddies was like, I bet you can't still do it. And you know, you get one of your partners running their mouth challenging you. And I must. I know I was 270. So it was around. It had to been, I think, because I wasn't 270 in 07. It was usually that way like in 09, off season. So I remember shooting at this gym and it had like a. It had the weights and stuff, but they had a cage inside this gym. So they see me and they're just dribbling and stuff. So they're like, no problem. You know, Phil's just shooting and stuff. And then my friend comes in there. He's pretty big. He's like 300 pounds, you know, he's like. And I'm like, you really want to play one on one or two big ass dudes? This is going to look really awkward. So he's like, d me up. You know, I'm like, bro, like, I can't stand it when someone tries to D me up. Because I look at it like a sign of disrespect.
- [15:07]
B
Yeah.
- [15:08]
A
Like real. In your job.
- [15:09]
B
Oh, you're trying so hard right now.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah. So I had to get them off of me. So I. So I like literally threw it off the glass and tried to dunk it on him. And he was like, I can't believe you tried that. He's like, you think you can still do that? I said, yeah. He said, I don't think you can. I said, put some money on it. Then he said, I'll put 100 bucks on it. I said, on a drop step or just like. He goes, you. You think you can dunk on a drop step? I said, well, that's how it's gonna be. Yeah. So I did on drop step first time, bam. Just banged it in. So you did. Yeah. I said, give me my damn money.
- [15:36]
B
Yeah. I wish you recorded that. That would have been hilarious.
- [15:39]
A
Oh, man. Right?
- [15:41]
B
Yeah.
- [15:42]
A
Everybody's gonna be like, he didn't do that. But no, seriously, like, I. I had a great vert, like, junior year in college, I was standstill. Vert 40. Wow. You know, and I was running, like, a 4, 3, 4 as a freshman, so I was more of a football player. Right. Like.
- [15:58]
B
Oh, yeah, you made it. You made it pretty high in basketball.
- [16:00]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I went to V1 and went, went. Played all four years at the University of Denver. Shout out to the Pioneers.
- [16:07]
B
Did you have a realization at some point, like, I'm not going to make it pro?
- [16:10]
A
Sophomore year, sophomore. Sophomore year. Preseason playing really good. Hedging a screen where you have to, you know, like, literally screens come in and you're trying to lift your leg over him to hedge the screen, and he hits my leg, knee goes out. And I'm like, oh, shit, career's done. Well, career wasn't done that day, but it. But laying there, like, you can't feel your leg. You're like, oh, this is done. So now you're going through your mind, like, what would life be like without it? And now I have to take the next three, four weeks to rehab a quad and hamstring. And then you recognize that the teams, the show must go on. So although you had a great game, they still got a season to play, and you've been replaced. So it's done. That's tough. It's already done. So now you're trying to climb, and it just didn't work out. And then, you know, I guess what was hard for me was it wasn't from a lack of effort. It was just the coach's decision. And if I would have been in a situation such as today, I probably would have transferred, hit the portal and went somewhere else. Because you want to play. At this point in time, it was more like, well, you've already been here two years. It's a great school. University of Denver is one of the top schools in the country, has a great business college. And you're in college for business and in it, just focus on getting your education paid for. Because it was like 50 grand a year to go there. So, yeah, I come from Rainier Beach High School, where there's not much opportunity in that place. So you would almost be a fool to disregard you know, a solid education. So it was, you know, it was tough, but to be honest, had a great friend, you know, that I'm still friends with today that, you know, he was riding the pine with me. So we would share minutes and, you know, we just root for each other and while still rooting for the team and, you know, we still had good moments. But I would be lying if I said that I had the greatest experience playing. I still remember having, like, an exit interview, and you're sitting with the athletic director, and she's like, so it was like three of us, because we all. We were all graduating the same time. Three, four seniors. So, yeah, three or four seniors were there. And we're like, asked like, so, Phil, what would you. What would you do if you could do this all over again? I said I would not come here. And she's like, whoa. I'm like, well, I'm telling you the truth. And I gave her a list of things that I just did. Did not like. And it wasn't me being entitled. It was just more like, hey, like the student body, like, we're. We're a hockey school, which is great. DU has a great hockey school, hockey team. But you don't pour marketing into basketball. So we're a winter sport. Kids that go to University of Denver, their parents have a ton of freaking money. So classes are usually over on Thursdays. Those kids are going up to the mountains. They're not gonna hang out, you know, to go to a game, to go watch a basketball game. When they're. Someone's got a cabin where they can go party at all weekend long during ski season. A lot of the parents, you know, they have that type of income. So we rarely had, like, packed house, so we. We played on the road better because we had more people in the. In the stands. So, yeah, for me, it was just, you know, it was a great experience because you realize, like, you can have entitlement. Ain't gonna get you anywhere. You know, you can show up every day, give it your all. It just may not be for you. And realizing that in sports, kind of just like in job, in a career, you can work for a company, it's just not the right fit for you.
- [19:41]
B
Right.
- [19:41]
A
You go to another business and you thrive. Yeah.
- [19:44]
B
You know, well, then another door open for you.
- [19:46]
A
Right?
- [19:46]
B
When. When did you. How did you get into bodybuilding? And did you always know that you had genetics for it? Because, I mean, there's pictures of you playing basketball.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah.
- [19:55]
B
You have some you don't typically see on High school basketball players.
- [20:00]
A
No, I guess I never believed what you. What you would see. So, like, people say, man, you're like, jacked. And I'm like, nah, I think I just downplayed it all. I think because some of the guys that I grew up around looked just as good, and those guys didn't make it. So I grew up with a lot of guys just in my neighborhood alone, you know, you had a lot of pro athletes. We're talking about, like, in football, we had Nate Burleson, his older brother Kevin, who played ball. He's now assistant coach for the Pistons. Jason Terry, I mean, obviously my old teammate, Jamal Crawford. Just out of my high school, he had Jamal Crawford, Doug Christie, Nate Robinson, Terrence Williams, Dejounte Murray. Studs. Yeah, studs, right. Just out of my high school. So. And then there's other schools that, you know, you got Zach Levine, you know, you got Isaiah Thomas that play for Boston. Oh, wow, you got a lot of kids, you know, So I was always around, like, and these are the guys that made it. You. You gotta think of the guys that didn't make it. So I never thought that I was exceptional, but I had some friends that just believed, man, they were just like, hey, you should come watch me compete. So I was like, all right, cool. And I go to a bodybuilding show.
- [21:09]
B
I'm like, now, did you lift weights at all?
- [21:11]
A
At this point, I was. I mean, I was just lifting with the team, you know, playing hoops. But back then, we're talking about, like, year 2000. Yeah, basketball was a little crazy.
- [21:18]
B
Yeah, like a few exercises.
- [21:20]
A
Once, once a week, you're doing chest, but it was like five sets of just bench, and you're doing pull ups, you're doing more of the hang cleans, power cleans, you know, snatches, like, stuff like that. We did more of like lunges, 45 degree lunges, overhead squats, which. Oh, my God. That. That was. Those are. You couldn't go out partying the night before because if you do overhead squats, you're gonna tilt over. You'd be hungover. But yeah, like. So no real body, no side laterals, no lat pull downs, no. No bodybuilding stuff, nothing. So I was a pure novice going to watch a bodybuilding show. Ended up watching a couple of them supporting some friends. And then there was a bodybuilder by the name of Claude Gruel who just won the Masters Olympia. And my friend was like, take a picture next to the pro. He's a guest poser. I was like, what Is that. You know, he's like, oh, well, he's going to get on stage, hit some shots, and, you know, you can kind of see what a pro looks like. I was like, okay. So I asked him, I was like, Mr. Claude, you know, can I take a photo with you? And he was like, yeah, sure. So I took a photo, and I'm wearing. So I'll never forget, I was wearing, like, a Jordan, you know, Jordan, sleeveless and Jordan. I was like, jordan out. You know, Jordan Shores, you know, shoes. And my friend Josh was taking a photo. He goes, hit a bicep. So I was like, okay. And then he didn't want to hit it. He didn't want to hit it at all. So Josh, like, hit a bicep and then we both do it. These kids are walking by and go, holy shit. His arms are as big as Claude's. And Claude rose like, you compete, right? And Josh goes, no, he's a basketball player. And he was like, no, you should compete. And I was like, I don't know. I've been hearing this. I've been hearing people around town telling me I should do this. And even while I was playing college ball, like, people were like, man, you should do this bodybuilding stuff, like, in your off season. I was like, man, I want to do all that, man. I don't want to wear those little tight ass. You know, I wear baggy clothes.
- [23:17]
B
Yeah.
- [23:17]
A
So that was around the time where I was like, okay, if I'm getting hit up by a pro. And I didn't realize that pros made money with it. Not that it mattered, but in a way it does. You want to know, like, if a career. Yeah, you get. If. Wait a minute. This guy gets paid to fly around the world, to go up on stage, not in complete condition, but to show what. It doesn't compute for me. So when. When I realized that, I was like, all right, let me try that. And on April 4th of 2003, I did my first bodybuilding show in Boulder, Colorado, the NPC Northern Colorado. Jay Cutler was the guest poser. There's a photo of he and I, and I go up to him. I was like, so can I take a picture? And he was like, yeah. I said, how much do you weigh? And he goes, I weigh 290. I said. I said, oh, my fuck, I weigh 190. But it was neat because we got that photo. And of course, you know, we made a friendship thereafter. But what I loved about it was the fact that my friends tricked me into doing the show. I thought the show was a natural show, and I didn't know the difference, but I just thought, so. You're super naive about everything I knew nothing about. You won right out the gates. Yeah. So I go check in. You know, you get your NPC card and this and that. I go, so where I go to the bathroom, where I go pee? Oh, right down the hall to the right. I go down. I was like, there's no one in there. Lady goes, excuse me. I go, you know, like, to do the test. She goes, oh, no, no, no. That's the Armed Forces show in a month. And I'm looking at Josh and my friends, and they're all laughing, and I was like, you guys got me at a show that, like, no wonder this guy's all vascular. I'm wondering, like, how the hell. Like, they're like, don't worry about it, man. I was like, what you mean, don't worry about it? Like, just. Just relax, bro. I was like, I can't relax.
- [25:14]
B
But you did all right.
- [25:15]
A
I did all right. I did the show. I won the show. Won the whole thing. Won the novice in the open overall. And right then and there, I was hooked. I was hooked. I was like, wait a minute. I went from, you know, state champion basketball player, scholarship to the University of Denver. Didn't have the career I wanted, but now I have a whole new career path of a hobby, you know, but something that was fun, that's competitive, that I don't know what I'm really doing, but I'm having success right away. So that means there's a lot of potential for growth here.
- [25:50]
B
When you first started. When you first started training in bodybuilding, did your body. You must have just responded very quickly.
- [25:59]
A
My body responded so fast that in college, I was getting tested as a basketball player.
- [26:04]
B
That's from basketball workouts?
- [26:06]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [26:06]
B
So when you started pure bodybuilding, what was that like?
- [26:10]
A
So I was weighing, like 175, and then I got up to 200 just like that. Like within, like, three, four months.
- [26:18]
B
Just muscle.
- [26:19]
A
Yeah. And it really was just. I had a friend who was working at eas. Now, people that may not know, but EAS was in Colorado.
- [26:31]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [26:33]
A
So they had, like, an employee sale, like, once a month. And he was like, hey, you know, because we're all broke. And I did a fifth year of college, so that's when I started bodybuilding. So I wasn't getting, like. I was getting, like, 80% of my scholarship, but I was living off campus, so I Was able to do that work a couple jobs, make a little bit of money. And so I would, I would work at a Bally. Actually I wasn't working at Bally's at the time. I was working at a nightclub, Downton. Just watching gates and checking the door. And I would take that money and then once a month we clean up, we drive to this restaurant called Village Inn. It's like an ihop. And then we'd drive up to Golden, Colorado. I wait out, I'd wait in my car and then I'd go outside to be one of the first people in line for when the doors open up at 7 in the morning. So I literally, there's times where it'd be snowing outside and I'd just be like, I got to get out of the car now because I got to be one of the first 10. Because people would just buy up everything. Like all that Myoplex and stuff, they were buying it all up and selling on ebay. So I was like, I just need to get what I need. So I was getting like those, those satches, like the protein. Yeah, for like 25 cents.
- [27:44]
B
Oh, wow.
- [27:45]
A
You know, you know how much it costs. You know, there's like three, four bucks even back then. So I was able to use like all my scholarship money just to, you know, start taking these supplements. And then with that I remember buying like, what was it like the supplement review guide and all that stuff. Yeah. So I was reading all that because I didn't know anything about supplements. So I was like, all right, I got to be self taught. But the best way to do it is like to read the book but then apply it. You know, actually buy the product because you know, get a lot of book smart people that don't use the product. So and then I, then I bought a, a camera that I would take progress pictures because that was around the time like the Body for life challenges were going on.
- [28:24]
B
Oh yeah.
- [28:24]
A
So I was taking like those weekly progress photos just so then I can understand where my strengths and weaknesses were. And then I would reference Flex Magazine Muscle Fitness and the Arnold's Encyclopedia Bodybuilding to figure out what, what physique do I really resemble? You know, like, did you have any.
- [28:38]
B
Anybody that you emulated?
- [28:40]
A
Yeah, like Sean Ray Flex Wheeler. Yeah, like, and this is what people were telling me already. So then when I, so then when I would look for the magazines, I would look for those guys and I was like, actually I could kind of see like what they're talking about a little bit more. So of like the, the separation of the muscle, the health of the muscle, the roundness. You know, I wasn't structurally wide. Your.
- [29:01]
B
Your delts and arms always reminded me of Dennis Newman. I don't know if remember. If you remember him. Yeah, yeah. He had those. Really? And Levroni had delts like that too, which you don't see. I mean, most pros have incredible delts, but there's always those outliers.
- [29:13]
A
Yes.
- [29:13]
B
And just kind of reminded me of those. Did you just kind of take parts from certain bodybuilders?
- [29:21]
A
Leg workout like we do that. And you. Yeah, piece it together. You piece it together. Exactly. And through those photos, you know, I didn't know what poses to do. I was just doing my best at the time and then I was just critiquing them. I was being my own judge. And really it was. That part of it was probably the most fun because I wasn't worried about what a judge had to say or what a friend had to say. I was just in the gym doing my thing and it was what I thought looked good on paper. You know, if I printed out the photos, which I did, and I would take a pencil pen and I would shade. This is where I want to focus the more detail on the calf or I want to have separation in the front delt. So when I squeeze my pecs, you can see, you know, like this is. And then I would look up the exercises that would do that and then I would take the smallest weight and say, okay, I feel it now. Okay, all I have to do is replicate that sweet spot and I'll be good. Because people overcomplicate all this training and stuff. It really is just, in my opinion, just trying to find that sweet spot like you would in golf or, you know, baseball. There's a sweet spot, there's a perfect jumper, you know, even if your form's a little off, but you know, when it's leaving your fingers like, this is the one. So for me it was just like, where can I find a sweet spot with the technique and if I can find that, I'm going to see result. And for me, with the genetics I have, I was able to see it right away.
- [30:52]
B
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that we've talked about that on the show, on the, on the type of genetics that you'll see. Well, in all high level sports, but in pro bodybuilding, I mean, you competed, got your pro card naturally with very little experience and understanding because you trained hard and because your body just responded, whereas a Lot of people will place the credit on drugs and steroids, not realize. I mean, Ronnie competed as a natural for a long time before he did anything. When did you make the switch over to or, like, okay, well, now I.
- [31:25]
A
Need to get enhanced. Yeah, it was actually before I turned pro, so I competed like three times. And then I was like, I think if. If I were to do a little bit of something, I think I get some good results from it because I'm already seeing, like, ahead. Like, I'm already beating guys that are clearly using, and I have no problem with it. If anything, I look like it was a badge of honor for me to say, you know what? I can compete. I'm still good enough. In. In my opinion, I probably would have been able to still turn pro naturally. I might have been able to, in my opinion, maybe won a pro show naturally. But it would have taken me so much longer.
- [32:05]
B
Right?
- [32:06]
A
It would have taken me probably 10 years. And that's a big if, right? So it was, yeah, my. My second year of competitive bodybuilding. I was like, let me just dabble a little bit. And I remember just thinking, man, like, if you're going to do this, man, like, you really gotta be smart. Like, you can't just. You gotta learn from other people that have, like an addicted personality, you know, with these pds. So, you know, I was just like, am I gonna get weird? Am I gonna, like, you know, you hear all these things.
- [32:40]
B
Yeah.
- [32:40]
A
These myths and, you know, he's gonna be like this roid, raging guy, like, you know all this stuff, you know, and then I recognize also, you can't be a rock star and bodybuilder. So that means me going out, eating poorly, drinking beer, you know, partying with my friends, you're not doing that no more. So if I choose this, I can't do this. So I had to really make peace with that because I ain't gonna lie. I love this. Looking like a football player jacked and partying with my friends. But then I realized there's a greater opportunity and I was not afraid of discipline and self respect to my physique. And then the only regret I had is that I would have done blood work before I decided to do that.
- [33:28]
B
So you knew where you were.
- [33:29]
A
Yeah, it would have been nice just to have that just on paper. Just, like, I could show you guys, like, man, check this out. When I was 24, like, you know, this is what it looked like. So then now I could talk to kids who are at freaking 17, 18 that think that they're not good enough and they got to go do this. But yeah, that it was around that time and I made sure that it was kind of like what Arnold said about it. Like it's just a polish. Like it's not like how you built the car and did your body respond quick?
- [34:02]
B
You know, it's funny. Again, that's another one. Like when people have that 0.1% of genetics when it comes to muscle building, they tend to also have that 0.1 genetics. Percent of genetics that respond to anabolics.
- [34:15]
A
Yeah.
- [34:15]
B
Because I mean, I've ran gyms for two decades and I knew guys taking so much, Right. And like a lot of gear, but you couldn't tell.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah, right.
- [34:22]
B
You couldn't even tell. They just looked unhealthy.
- [34:24]
A
You're like, bro, like, all I see is side effects here.
- [34:28]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [34:29]
A
Why do you do this?
- [34:30]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:31]
A
It's kind of. Do you feel like it's kind of hard to communicate that with people? Like, you don't want to discourage. Like I don't want to discourage someone to live out their dream, but at some point I feel like you almost need to tap on the shoulder and be like, bro, like, can you. This is your health. I come with no shame and guilt. Like I'm. But I'm kind of concerned or I'm curious. What is the end goal?
- [34:55]
B
I don't think they realize just how big of a role. Well, consistency, that's a big one. But genetics play, like you said, you ate 5,000 calories in the off season. I know, guys, 85,000 calories that weigh 175 pounds, they can't gain any muscle mass.
- [35:11]
A
Right.
- [35:12]
B
So there's just the, the, that level. If, if you're not the jack. Most jacked person all the time without trying, you're probably not going to be a pro bodybuilder on gear, you know, just by taking gear.
- [35:25]
A
I'm so with you on that.
- [35:26]
B
Yeah.
- [35:26]
A
I mean, you think about it, it's like no matter how hard I tried to be the best basketball player, you got guys like 7 4, you know.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah.
- [35:38]
A
Like, what am I gonna do with that?
- [35:39]
B
Yeah.
- [35:41]
A
And I think the lower. It's a low barrier of entry when it comes to bodybuilding because there's shows everywhere. Shows everywhere. And you know, peds is highly accessible, more now than ever. And it's kind of like socially accepted. So you run into people, in my opinion, more they're more afraid to compete naturally than running a bunch of gear. They're not, they're not afraid at all to run all these different compounds and stuff. And one of the things I do now is I'm not like some huge advocate, but like at these expos I run into, you know, we're talking about teenagers. This, that's why I ask them questions like, you know, you know, what's your goal? This and that and, and they say, yeah, you know, I'm trying to get jack like you, man, but you know, it's gonna take one kid just flat out said he was at the LA Fit Expo, he was like, you know, it's gonna take a lot of hard work, a lot more gear and this. And I was like, hold on, a lot more what? He was like, you know, like, gotta take, you know, this and like what you guys do and this and that. I said, I don't think so, man. I said, let me show you a picture. This is me playing college ball. You not better than that. So you're gonna have to go against someone like that one day. Can you beat that? Right now he's like 24. I said, that kid's 20, drinking beer, pizza, barely working out, just playing hoop.
- [37:04]
B
I remember as a kid seeing a picture of 16 year old Arnold and being like, oh, this ain't gonna happen.
- [37:09]
A
It'S not gonna happen.
- [37:10]
B
Or Jay Cutler's like a picture of Cutler. He's 18 and he looks like it's tough, man.
- [37:13]
A
It's a hard, it's a hard pill to swallow, but I think is one a conversation that has to be had more often. Yeah, it doesn't mean that you're not worthy of success.
- [37:23]
B
Everybody can improve their health and fitness and the way they look. There's other things too. Like I feel like there's a sport for everybody.
- [37:29]
A
It's like, there you go, you got to just find what fits best.
- [37:32]
B
And like, I don't know, we watched this is the, the democratization of sport and it really kind of got into the genetic component of that and like really trying to find, you know, the.
- [37:42]
A
Best fit for that body type or.
- [37:44]
B
Like where they could, you know, put most of their energy into it and be successful. And I think that, you know, you kind of stumbled on bodybuilding and that was the thing, that was the thing for you.
- [37:52]
A
I got very. That's why I tell people I got extremely lucky. I got lucky, Ronnie Coleman got lucky. You know, we weren't. I didn't grow up saying like, oh man, that's what I want to do when I grow up. I want to be a professional bodybuilder. I did not have that. What I admired was muscles. What I admired was people working out, strength. You know, I grew up in that era, you know, Arnold, Sly, you know, like Bo Jackson, my favorite. Like, everybody was tough, you know, and that meant you worked hard. I meant you worked out. And. Yeah, like, who wouldn't want to look. Look jacked and, you know, ripped up and still be functional and all that. But I think it's, you know, for me, it was always about, you know, my own personal pursuit of happiness in the gym. It wasn't always happy, you know. You know, you use, like, some negativity to motivate yourself. Yeah. And then I realized that was more of a band aid than anything.
- [38:54]
B
Because when you mean, like, working out, angry.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah. Because, you know, like, oh, you had a bad day. Let me go to the gym and go figure it out. It's like, did you really figure it out, though? You just went aggro for like 90 minutes and now you're still. Like, once that pump goes away, you still got those problems. You probably didn't sort them out in a car ride home. You're just putting a band aid on this issue and you're actually suppressing your problems. So then, you know, people have this mental health. Hello. You win all these titles and shit and then you're done. Hmm. I gotta still deal with all this stuff now.
- [39:26]
B
Yeah.
- [39:27]
A
So I think a lot of bodybuilders, they have to realize, like, you are probably running away from something than running to something.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah. And it could be extremely challenging or more challenging when you're getting accolades for running away. In other words, you're succeeding.
- [39:43]
A
Yeah.
- [39:43]
B
Because of the determination and consistency and just insanity.
- [39:47]
A
Yeah. I think that happens even in business. Right.
- [39:50]
B
Like, it happens anywhere.
- [39:51]
A
It happens everywhere. Right. Like high performing, you know, like, you guys run this amazing show. You guys have to turn more, you know, turn more. Find new people to bring on new topics, new this. Read the comments, figure out what they like, you know, like, and you just want to be a man of service, you know, God gave you a gift, so you want to use it as much as possible. But then you're like, man, like, am I really making myself happy with this? How do I recharge? Like, man, I still got to deal with my own life. I'm asking every. Like, you're asking me all these questions and stuff, you know, like, what about. What about you? What about you? You know what I mean? Like, what about me? You know? And, you know, sometimes you, you. I feel like as you get older, I mean, I'm at this point in time in my life, where I'm like, I need to have a lot more reflection time. I need to have more time of stillness. I need to know, am I doing something that really brings pleasure to my soul? The last thing I want to do is, like, I'm on the back nine of this golf course, and as I get closer to the end, I want to be meeting God and be like, man, I really left a lot of meat on that bone. I really could have found out who I really was. I really could have been more intentionally focused on the people who I interact with or the questions I should have asked. I mean, basically living with regret. Do you.
- [41:04]
B
Do you think you made competing in general and then maybe bodybuilding an idol for a little while?
- [41:12]
A
Oh, 100%. I mean, I think it's just something where you brought up.
- [41:14]
B
Because you've brought up God quite a bit.
- [41:16]
A
Absolutely. No, I mean, I'm a believer. And I realized that, look, there is no coincidences. You know, I got the genetics how. You know, like. And then the way that I even got to bodybuilding was very strange because I was interviewed by the Seattle times. I was 17. I just signed with the University of Denver, and of course, they're excited. They're like, oh, yeah, you know, you're going to college and this and that. Tell us, do you have any aspirations of going pro? Which every kid does. So I look into the camera and I say, yes, but if that doesn't work out, I'm going to be pro at something. What? Yeah, like, I'm not some great Public Speaker At 17 years old, you know what I'm saying? Like, that was just divine. Yeah. Because that ended up happening.
- [42:10]
B
Yeah, it's profound. Yeah.
- [42:11]
A
So I look back at even those little things I look at, to be quite honest. Like, I look at no coincidences, because I know guys in my life. He's walking in front of me, around me, and for me, that. As I look, you know, look back, I say, okay, you won seven Mr. Olympias. So here we go. You won seven Mr. Olympias. The day that you got your first title was in 2011. Right. I wore the number 22. That was random. Those are random numbers that are given to every Olympia competitor except the. The champ who goes last. So they gave me 22. That was the same number I wore in high school and college. Okay. I was also the 13th Mr. Olympia. Okay, hear me out. I'm like, okay, I get the number 22. It's. Yeah, it's like September of 2011, I'm all excited. I'm like, I know I'm about to win now because I got the physique, I got the mentality, I got the number.
- [43:07]
B
It's all lining.
- [43:07]
A
It's all lining up. Thanks, God. Like, it's all. Sorry. Like, it's all lining up. These dominoes, they lining up, and I gotta do bam. You know, I get seven of these things. My career's done. My first Mr. Olympia was 2008. I got third. My last one in 2020, I got third. So close circle. Right now, I'm looking over my life. I'm going through some old photos. I see an old picture of my younger self. My stepdad had. He was a jack of all trades, man. He was a TV engineer for NBC affiliate called King, King 5 television and in Seattle, Washington. But in the spare time, he built things. So he built me a car bed, you know, and that car bed had a stencil kit. I look at the photo, it's the number 13 on the damn car. I was 7 years old when I got it. How does that. So I ask him, hey, Pop, what made you choose the number 13? It's kind of like an unlucky number. He goes, you know, I didn't really think about it like that. It was just a stencil kit. And it came with this. So I just picked a number. Yeah, like, how does this not like, you know what I'm saying? So, like, I. I started paying attention more. More in my later years, I'd say, and realized, like, wait a minute, I need to start paying attention to what he's trying to tell me. And I've even went as far as done plant medicine man. I've done toad. I've done all that. I'm getting ready to do cactus next month. Oh, yeah. I'm about to sit with him because I've seen some things and I realized, like, there's a lot of self development that I need to continue to pursue. I need to understand that this. This world, you know, when you go on these different journeys and you see some things, you hear some things, you're like, all right, well, I need to be more at peace with myself. I need to not be so rigid. I need to be more fluid. I need to be more intentionally focused on prayer and meditation. I need to have this calmness about me because this is. We're living in a world where there's spiritual warfare going on, a lot of craziness, and being in bodybuilding, you're doing things to your body that, yeah, it can get quite dark. So I'm very much, like I said, gratitude. I'm. I'm so thankful that I've made it on the other side and I still can look the part and then help other people. And I just. Right now, like, you know, I'm just. Again, I'm just very thankful that I have, like, God's grace.
- [45:45]
B
Yeah, you. You made that for real, dude. Like, you made it out relatively unscathed. I mean, you had hernia surgery and.
- [45:53]
A
Yeah, I had that twice.
- [45:54]
B
Intestinal strangulation. Talk about that, because that's scary. A lot of people don't know that's a deal.
- [45:58]
A
That's a big deal. I didn't know how bad that was. So I'm getting ready for a 2017 Olympia. Sheree, my wife, she's like, phil, you're crying in your sleep, like, every night. Something's wrong. I know something's wrong, but I didn't know, like, how bad, right? So I remember one day, I'm trying to do planks, and I felt like my intestines were about to, like, literally tear out of my abdomen. Like, it was just. I'm like, I can't hold anything. So I was like, holy crap. Like, something's really wrong. And.
- [46:33]
B
But you ignored thing. As a bodybuilder, you learn to ignore pain.
- [46:36]
A
Ignore high pain, push through.
- [46:38]
B
You keep going. You just keep going.
- [46:40]
A
Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. And I had Arnold on my mind. I said, if I win this show, when I win this show, if I never win another Olympia again, I'm tied with him. Everybody will know who Arnold is. And if I say I'm tied with him, people that don't know about bodybuilding will say, I know what that is. So I'm good. I'm on the Mount Rushmore bodybuilding, no questions. Like, no question. So it's worth the risk. So right after the show, I have emergency surgery. I fly to. Not Orlando, I go to Cleveland. We go. We fly there. Thank God. This doc had, like, this certain method that can get you up walking that same day. So he opens me up. He's like, oh, yeah. Tells my wife, like, don't worry, he'll be out in, like, 30 minutes. Two and a half hours later, now she's pacing, wondering, like, there's been complication this and that. And they're like, yeah, he has intestinal strangulation. Like, we opened him up and it was like his intestine came out, like, in a freaking accordion. So now we have to push everything back in. And it was a Lot. So I was bleeding from my, you know, intestines and I bleeding through my colon, I mean, so that blood flow was improperly. So basically I gave. I look back at my blood work and for 2017, I looked really good. I was hard, I was sharp. Of course I had distension during transitions. But man, the. Even running anabolics, like pills and stuff, my blood work wasn't going up ast alt levels low.
- [48:25]
B
So you're looking.
- [48:26]
A
How do you. Running anabolics and like, it's like, low.
- [48:28]
B
You're like, my liver's indestructible.
- [48:30]
A
Right. Basically, I'm like, really? The gift. It's like under 40, I'm in like high 20s. So you're like, wait a minute, what's happening? What's going on? I wasn't absorbing anything because of intensive translation.
- [48:42]
B
And you were able to compete, and.
- [48:44]
A
I was able to compete. Wow. So gnarly, right? So then they patched me up and then going into 2018 Olympia, I retour it, three weeks out. Devastating, man.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah.
- [48:56]
A
Cause I know if that wouldn't have happened, I would have won. I mean, I'm talking about easily won, like, not even a question. And you know, it sucked, man, but, you know, I look like this, man.
- [49:08]
B
But I mean, you've got such, I mean, you move well still, everything's good. I mean, you see a lot of pros come out Olympias, I mean, and there's, you know, life altering injuries and challenges.
- [49:20]
A
You look at Ronnie, you know, you look at some other people, you know, that's where you see the silver lining. You realize, like, God bless Ronnie Coleman, because this guy travels just as much and not more than any of us on tour. Has the same lines as if he was competing today. And he has no complaints. So if he has that type of demeanor, who am I to bitch and moan?
- [49:45]
B
Yeah.
- [49:46]
A
Because I didn't win another Sandow or you know what I mean? Like, oh, I can't move the same way as I once did. Like, I could still improve that. I just have to be more intentionally focused on it. But yeah, gratitude is like number one.
- [49:59]
B
You know, let's back up for a second. Your career. I'd like to hear about your relationship with Jay Cutler, because I know he. I remember reading an article, early in your career, you were critiqued for your back development. Later in your career, you were regarded as having one of the best backs ever in bodybuilding. And I, I read that Cutler had talked to you about some training or had some influence on how you train. And that Played a role. Is that true, or.
- [50:25]
A
He gave me a hard time, you know, like, just as a friend, you know, he's like, man, you got to get bigger. But he just knew in time.
- [50:30]
B
Okay.
- [50:33]
A
You know, Jay was always supportive, and he was even more supportive as I was getting closer to winning the Olympia. I always say winning the Olympia instead of beating Jay Cutler, because that's what I did. I became the 13th Mr. Olympia, and he just happened to get second that day. I was able to compete against my best friend. Did he give me advices? All the time, but majority of it was just the advices of, like, how to train on the road. Be more meticulous as to how you eat. You know, like being a real professional. He watching Jay travel and train and eat, and he was a machine. He had a system. The minute he woke up in Vegas, like you knew, like clockwork. And I was like, okay, this is the. This is the guy that I got to go against. I gotta be just as focused, if not more so. I picked up on that, you know, because things are caught and taught, right? So, like, you gotta, like, really, like, okay, what's he doing? All right, I gotta do that. So it wouldn't have to come from his mouth all the time. It'd just be like, just watching him.
- [51:39]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:40]
A
And his training style, like, he trained midday, late night. I never really asked him why he did that. I just did it. And I think for me, it proved to be a benefit because when I trained at night, there was no one in the gym. And I think that's probably why he liked it too, you know, because him living in Vegas during those years, I mean, dude, like, they were. Jay had some of the biggest fan bases I've ever seen. I mean, we talk about fan bases now, you know, with social media, numbers and stuff.
- [52:13]
B
Yeah.
- [52:14]
A
I'm telling you right now, this is pre social media. If Jay Color has social media. Oh, man.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah.
- [52:18]
A
With the current guys that are out right now, y'all wouldn't be following these people.
- [52:22]
B
I mean, you were.
- [52:22]
A
You would be seeing Jay Cutler at 300 pounds, squatting, you know, four or five place on Smith, like, screaming and hollering, getting after it, sweating his ass off. Like at Lake Meat Gold's, Durango, you know, Decatur, like all these places, killing it, going to Golds Venice. Oh, man. Like, some of those workouts, I would watch him, and I could not keep up for a very long time. It was up until, I want to say, like, 2009, 2010 is when I could really keep up because his volume was so high, he just lower resting periods. A lot of guys, they say they train hard, and people give me crap online, like, oh, I don't see Phil really training that hard or that heavy. I'm like, you're not counting the resting periods? I only rest, like, 45 to 60 seconds normally. You know, now I can do whatever I want, but, like, when I was getting ready for shows and stuff, like, two minute max.
- [53:12]
B
Like your style also, you know, Cutler's kind of like this, like, not a lot of injuries. You tend to stick around.
- [53:19]
A
Yeah.
- [53:19]
B
Whereas you had the. Like, the Dorian and the Ronnie, where they just went. Although Ronnie was just everything. A lot of injuries as a result of some of the ways that they trained.
- [53:28]
A
Yeah, I think it was, you know, you live by the story, die by it. Right. I mean, it's just one of those things, you know, you see in other sports, guys that go at one speed and that's all out, like, they get hurt.
- [53:38]
B
Yeah.
- [53:38]
A
You know, you look at it like a Derrick Rose like that. That guy was phenomenal athlete, you know, but he got hurt early on because he didn't know how to maybe play at different speeds. I think a lot of people have to realize, like, okay, wow, I'm just naturally strong. Okay, that's great. But does that mean that you have to squat 800 pounds? Probably not. If it requires you to squat, let's say £600 just to grow some quads. I don't know, man. Like, that's crazy to me. Like, I was able to grow quads and squat 315, 20 reps, 5 sets, 2 minutes break at altitude, which is freaking hard. Right? You know, like, try that. Go to arm breasts. Go. Go knock yourself out, and then go do lunges outside and do all this other crap. But I do believe that the. The style of training prevented a lot of injuries. For sure.
- [54:26]
B
Yeah. Talk about your rivalry with Kai, because he was like, every Olympia, every Mr. Olympia has that. That guy that chases him, you know, pushing him, and yours was. Was Kai Green. What was that rivalry like?
- [54:38]
A
Man, those are great times.
- [54:40]
B
Are you guys friends now?
- [54:41]
A
We're cool.
- [54:42]
B
Okay.
- [54:42]
A
He hit me up the other day. He probably mad that I'm gonna tell everybody that he hit me up. He was like, off the record, you know, because he saw what I recently did at the White House and getting a shout out by the Trump, you know, so he was like, that's really cool. You know, he's like, congrats. I was like, yeah, we both flip each other off all the Time, you know, so it's always gonna be like that, though. We don't even fight it. It's just one of those things. It's a frenemy. Yeah, yeah. Because the way I describe Kai is that he was one of the hardest workers, one of the best posers, one of the best bodybuilders we've ever seen, Especially off season. Anyone got a chance to watch him guest post. Off season she were in, I mean, it was amazing to be able to compete against someone that was that dense. From quads, hamstrings, glutes back. I've never seen that. Like, still, I have not seen that even today. Because those hamstrings, those quads, like, it's insane, dude. And the way he trained. You're not going to out train this dude. And he was so meticulous, so methodical as to how he went about the form, the technique, the time and attention. He knows all these terms and he applies them. He does not cheat on diet. This guy probably just got too big, in my opinion. And to be fair, I was just the one guy in his way. If it wasn't for me, this guy would have probably won 10 of them.
- [56:04]
B
Yeah.
- [56:05]
A
You know, because there was no one else that could have rivaled his hardness. He probably could have, in my opinion.
- [56:10]
B
Now, he trained for a long time. Natural before he went.
- [56:13]
A
Yeah.
- [56:14]
B
So he had a lot of years as a natural bodybuilder before going, which I remember. An advantage, I would say.
- [56:18]
A
I remember that transition, too. I remember him competing pretty much natural. And then all of a sudden, he comes to Colorado, guest poses.
- [56:28]
B
And I was like, who's this?
- [56:29]
A
And he comes out, one of these crazy outfits, right. And he takes it off. I was like, I don't know how. I don't know if I got answers for this. Real talk. Like, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to have answers for this when he dies down. This is going to be tough. And I knew right then and there, I was like, he and I are going to be battling for a long time. And we did. And I think we elevated each other. I think we elevated the sport. Was it toxic? Maybe. But I think all sports have to have a butting of heads at some point. And I believe it's from everybody understanding that we both were highly competitive. You get two highly competitive people in a room. Like, if you walked in here right now, it's gonna. You guys are gonna feel weird. There's gonna be a level of awkwardness because you just. You feel Energy. You're like, wow, these guys have some energy, man. Like, what's going on? Is there gonna be some furniture moving or. They're going to be cool. Yeah, yeah. And I love that about our rivalry, is that there's always going to be that level of competition, that competitiveness. Now he's calling me out because he wants me to come back and do the Masters Olympia. I told him I'd coach him. You know, that'd be pretty dope. That would be sick. You know, I'd be like, dude, I'll coach you, man. I'll, like. Like, walk you out, you know?
- [57:48]
B
Would you ever consider.
- [57:50]
A
Consider what?
- [57:50]
B
Doing, like a Master's or.
- [57:52]
A
No.
- [57:52]
B
Yeah.
- [57:53]
A
No, it's when I. Well, every show I go to, so obviously, I go to the Arnold, I go to the Olympia. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't think about competing every time I see it, especially when I'm doing the commentary, because I see what's up there and I ask myself, is this something that I have not seen before? Is this something. Do I believe that if I was healthy, could I do well against. Not going to disrespect these guys and be an old head and say that I could just beat these guys? But I think I'd be extremely competitive, where I would probably. If I put my name on a dotted line and they knew that I was actually having a good off season, it would probably make them elevate their game a little bit more, because they know that if they're not ready, the level of competition I bring is a different level, and it could really whoop their ass and make them look bad. But see, now you see the tone of my voice. I'm like, I gotta suppress. It's still there, dude. It's always gonna be there, guys.
- [58:53]
B
Yeah.
- [58:54]
A
You know, right when you ask me, I'm like, here I go.
- [58:57]
B
This is what I would do immediately.
- [58:58]
A
And this was every. So how I'm talking, how I was talking, that's every day, the back and forth. Like, I would be in my head like that every day I'm like, I'm going to lift these weights, make them my bitch. They have no choice but to give me what I want. I'm gonna eat this food, I'm gonna step. I want to do. This is how my mind works. I'm like 1200 steps minimum on a step mill, squeezing the glutes, doing kickbacks. I'm going to get this done within 35 minutes. I'm actually going to use, you know, Stem machines while I do it. I was doing that stuff, all this new fit stuff that you guys see. I was doing that shit 10 years ago. Were you really?
- [59:36]
B
I believe it.
- [59:37]
A
I was doing it way before. Oh, wow. Like all these modalities that I hear you guys even talk about, I've been doing that stuff from the very beginning. I was doing infrared Saunas back in 2004. Oh, wow. I was doing acupuncture.
- [59:47]
B
I do remember watching.
- [59:48]
A
I was doing that back in 06 because I took what I learned from college, you know, training tables and stuff. Yeah, I just, I immediately applied that to bodybuilding the minute I started getting paid.
- [59:59]
B
Do you think it made a big difference?
- [60:00]
A
Absolutely. Because I realized that if you're a professional athlete, what do professional athletes do? They do their. They're. They're very skilled, but they lean on recovery more, much more. But majority of bodybuilders, all you see on tick tocks and this and that, they talk about PDS and training. That's it. They don't talk about recovery. Yeah, just go, go, go, go, go. Let me just beat the hell out of this machine. They don't know how to recover properly. And just because you have all these modalities, these, these cryos, these, this, that. There's a system that you have to create that's going to deliver yourself so that, yeah, you can do cold plunge all you want, but it's going to, you know, you know, not give you the gains. Right. So you got a certain timing to just like with your nutrients, you got to do it. So, yes, it helped because I was doing like, you know, the decompression.
- [60:43]
B
Yeah.
- [60:43]
A
So I was doing like on the traction table, like DRX9000. I was doing that. I think that's what it's called. But yeah, I was doing that three days a week. So it's very expensive. But I was like, if I can do this. So I'm doing. I'm doing chiropractic decompression. So I had a system. So I wake up in the morning, I was doing like. I did my cardio, hit the infrared sauna, drink a shake, hop into the Vitaris 320 hyperbaric for 45 minutes, then got my next meal in, carried on with my day, then either had a massage or a chiropractic. And when I go to the chiropractor, I'm on that rolling table for a little bit. And then he's just doing an assessment. So it wouldn't be like full body adjustment and stuff. He's like, okay, you're gonna do shoulders today. Okay, let's make sure that's good. Just getting some good active release. And then he studied in. In China. So, like, he was doing, like, real good acupuncture. So I was like, all right. So he's doing that plus stem, plus oxygen while on that traction table. So I was doing that three days a week.
- [61:48]
B
Wow.
- [61:49]
A
So the whole point is, as you guys know, traction and stuff, your vertebrae is, like, not compressed, so you're not compressing it, you know, with. On those nerves. And I think as you get bigger, your posture changes. This and that. That gets like this. Yeah, that nerve. Oh, why? I don't feel something in my arm. I can't feel my arm. I got a tingle down my leg and this and that. They're not even getting a proper assessment. Like, how many people get an X ray? How many people doing ultrasounds, MRIs. I was doing all that because I needed to understand, like, what do I need to know fix? So I was doing that neuromuscular massage, two day, two, two hours, three, sometimes three days a week, just to make sure that, you know, lymphatic drainage. I mean, we're doing pimp. We're doing all this stuff.
- [62:34]
B
You don't hear about all this.
- [62:36]
A
Yeah, I know. Yes, I was doing all that stuff, man. That's impressive. I wasn't telling everybody because I wanted to keep it for myself.
- [62:41]
B
Oh.
- [62:41]
A
It's all insider information now. I can give it all away. But, yeah, no, I was doing all that, man.
- [62:45]
B
Yeah, you're ahead of the curve with.
- [62:47]
A
I was sure. I made sure because I also knew that I was going against people that have been competing for longer. And I also leaned on the fact that a lot of these guys are just gonna, again, rely on just drugs to get better. It's like, nah, man. Like, if, like, one of my buddies, he doesn't compete, like, he. You know, he's just a Hooper. And he was like, how could you explain it to me? I was like, all right. So I said, think about, like, this. I said, you know, you wear, like, a T shirt, and you wash it, and then it kind of comes out and it loses its shape. It's kind of stretched and stuff like that. It's like, yeah. I said, why do you use fabric softener? To do what? To take those fibers and get them back locked in. I said, so sometimes, like, with peptides or this or that or the other. That's the whole point. You're trying to increase the musk, the fibers to keep the integrity of it back together. How do you do that with no vows of dilation? Like, if you're just pinning yourself all damn day, you messing this up. Scar tissue, this and that. Now you're just inflamed. I was like, man, leave that alone. And just figure out, like, how about your mitochondria? Like, people have mitochondrial disease. Like, you even know what that is? No, you need to figure this out.
- [64:00]
B
You're telling your friend that.
- [64:01]
A
He's like, you know, but he figured it out. He was like, all right, well, okay, so that helps with ATP. This. Yep. This happened with that. This. That. He's like, okay, so I can have better. I was like, all right. Neuroplasticity. Do other things. Like, I. I can. I can write legibly with my left hand. Why? Because I just happened to start doing stuff with my left hand one time. I was like, I'm just gonna do it because I was super high on, like, neuroplasticity. That applies to bodybuilding. You know, this arm's bigger. Bigger than this one. Okay, well, then I need to figure something out. Like, but it's got to be more on the recovery side. Gotta have that curiosity.
- [64:41]
B
Do you think that's the biggest missing piece with most people, when it comes to trying to build muscle, is just really understanding recovery?
- [64:48]
A
I think so, because now you see more people as they get older. What are the older guys talking about? Biohacking.
- [64:54]
B
Yeah.
- [64:55]
A
You know, like, what can we do to get our years back? That's where I'm at. I'm like. I tell all my friends, I'm like, what a time to be alive, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, we're so much available now, dude. And I'm thinking, if I was 25, like, when I turned pro, and I was. I'm thinking, well, you kind of were already doing that. He just didn't have the funds, the resources to do it. But now it's, like, more readily available. Yeah. I think it just needs to be talked about more. I think that needs to be more sensationalized more than just, like, you know what we see?
- [65:24]
B
Yeah.
- [65:24]
A
I think if more younger adults. And I think the younger adults that play collegiate athletics that want to turn pro in other sports, they get it. They understand, because they see it. They have it as an option. Like, you go to, like, schools, like, any SEC football program, you see all that. You see the cold plungers, you see the. The saunas. You see. You know. Yeah, we just.
- [65:44]
B
We just talked about LeBron James and his sleep schedule, he sleeps like nine hours a night, takes two hours. He takes naps. Yeah, yeah. And does all these recovery methods, which. I'm glad people are talking about this, because when you train at that level, I mean, it's like any high, high performance, finely tuned machine.
- [66:03]
A
Yes.
- [66:03]
B
You know, you get a. You have a Formula one car. There's a lot of attention being placed on maintaining it and keeping it.
- [66:09]
A
Yes, sir.
- [66:10]
B
Especially after every single race.
- [66:11]
A
I think so. I think LeBron's a great example of that. You know, I don't know what else you're doing, but what I will say is that, like on the sleep schedule, I mean, look like he is. He is very intentionally focused on the recovery. That's why he's been able to, you know, compete that long. And I would say when he does perform, you know, we're still seeing him put up 40. We're still seeing them dunk, you know, like, it's very hard, you know, someone that size to be able to move the way he does. He does it very, very good. And he's again, this one billion dollar athlete, but he's making sure that he takes care of that body with that money and, you know, shout out to him because he's being very, very smart. I had a question. Did you guys ever hear about a company called Muscle Sound?
- [67:00]
B
No.
- [67:00]
A
So this company, it's not a pitch or anything because the company's dumb, but, like, you just work with this company, it had this technology where like you have like a. Like an ultrasound, like a wand, and it ran through, like an algorithm. So, like, let's say you're a pitcher and you want to, you know, just go beyond the eye test of, like, velocity and this and that to figure out how many pitches this guy should throw. But what if they measure the arm? They could check the muscular fuel rating on that arm. So with that, you can see, like, you could pretty much Interesting. Figure out soft tissue injuries and stuff like that. So imagine real metric there. So imagine using that for like a.
- [67:36]
B
Yeah, he brought it up there.
- [67:37]
A
Yeah. So imagine you use it on a trip for like equestrian and stuff like that. The horse can't tell you that they can't run today.
- [67:43]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [67:44]
A
So I was with this company for a little while. I think it was 2016 Olympia run, so I would do cardio and they would measure me before and after. And what a great way to figure out, like, how much carbs you need. Protein, rest. Interesting. So you use that to figure out, dictate the intensity. Like, wow. Because Maybe you're training too hard. Yeah. How would you tell someone, you know.
- [68:11]
B
HRV is really all they had.
- [68:13]
A
That's it. I know of.
- [68:14]
B
Yeah.
- [68:14]
A
Yeah. So, you know, as time goes, you know, there's going to be companies that do this. You know, I'm probably got, like, a million other people wanting to do this more now, but. But you could be more intentionally focused on the fact that it ain't just, like, beating your body up. It's about nutrient timing, all this other stuff. But what metric do you have?
- [68:33]
B
That's right.
- [68:33]
A
And if you're a trainer, you could figure out if your client is lying.
- [68:36]
B
Yeah.
- [68:37]
A
Because you're like, hey, man, like, normally. Well, normally I could see, like, the expenditure of energy. I could see that you didn't deplete those legs during that spin class that you claimed you did. And you can't fake that because we. And then also, I was able to figure out, like, this quad was bigger than this quad, and this one was always bigger than this one. Now I'm able to figure out through this testing, maybe there's a real soft tissue injury that I didn't detect, you know, prior to using it. Come to find out, Tore McL.
- [69:16]
B
Oh, and you didn't know.
- [69:17]
A
Didn't know it. I competed with it for, like, three years. Didn't know. You know what I'm saying? But then you're wondering, like, okay, so why is my satoris all messed up? Why is my growing messed up? Like, why is all this always hurting when I squat? It's because, like, you're not getting the proper alignment. Like, everything is off still. Yeah. Yeah. Lacks the building mobility and everything. Why is my hip. I thought my hip was. I was gonna have to have hip surgery. So I get an MRI on my hip.
- [69:39]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because it travels all the way up the kinetic chain.
- [69:41]
A
Yep. So I'm like, what's the good news? And they're like, good news is your hip is fine. What's the bad news? Oh, you tore your mcl. I was like, damn. They're like, well, you could do stem cells for that. I was like, all right, bet. So I did that. Now I'm due again. But now I got to do, like, whole rehab on this leg because it has, like, gone down in size. And to be honest, like, if. If. Or I should. I'm not going to say if. Kyle, watch your words. When this gets better, I would love to grow these squads again.
- [70:10]
B
They look pretty big.
- [70:11]
A
Yeah, I know. Wearing tight pants today. I would love to see them, you know, because Otherwise I'm gonna have to get all my suits retailered because my ass is like, My wife likes it. Right. You could kind of tell in your suits and stuff. Stuff.
- [70:28]
B
You're like, damn, talk, talk, talk about the reality of, like, just the. Because competing and bodybuilding training that way. You've made a few comments, you know, about, you know, building this or growing that. Like, talk about body dysmorphia and how, like, how challenging that is in a sport like bodybuilding. I mean, to hear someone like you say, I got to grow my quads. The average person looks and go, what are you talking about? Like, I've never seen quads.
- [70:52]
A
That I'm nuts, right? So saying that. But it's. You're always.
- [70:55]
B
Yeah, talk about that a little bit because, you know, we have listeners who are trying to train, trying to get themselves up, young guys trying to build young women, getting on stage and thinking, this is going to help me become more fit. Talk a little bit about the challenges, like, just the body dysmorphia and how you view it. Because not weighing yourself, I'm assuming, was a part of that, was a part of, like, breaking free from that.
- [71:15]
A
Yeah, because you realize you're just. Just being so. Man, it just consumes you totally. And it's not really bringing you joy. You're doing it out of fear of not being loved. A lot of us do bodybuilding because of a lack of feeling loved by other people, validated by other people, being feeling seen and heard by other people. Because maybe you were raised in a household where you have to perform for love. I think a lot of parents mess their kids up, not intentionally, but just because they wanted the best for them. So, like, they would say, oh, you. You gotta get A's. Yeah, no B's, you know, instead of saying, like, hey, I want you to do the best that you can. I really believe you can get an A grade today. It just takes a little longer sentence, but the impact, you know, makes them believe, like, like, oh, like, if I don't look great, like, I suck. And now I got to compare myself to a million other people on the damn social media. And now you don't realize that some people are using filters or whatever, but they're just living. But at the end of the day, they're just living that person, living their life. But you got to live yours. How do you want to live it? And how you want to live it happily? So, like, I realized that, man, like, I'm. I'm never happy. And. And I. And I was Taught that you're never supposed to be satisfied with greatness. Okay, take that pill again. You know what I mean? Like, stand on that type of business and watch what happens. You're going to be the. You're going to be no different than the CEO of a Fortune 500 company that's a billionaire that wants to kill himself because you're not happy.
- [73:00]
B
Happens all the time.
- [73:01]
A
Because I'm not happy.
- [73:02]
B
That's right.
- [73:02]
A
So you have to get to a point where once it becomes. And it. I think it happens with a lot of people, especially in this sport. Like, you. Even if you're natural, like, you're still going to want more and you have to love yourself more. You have to not always compare yourself to someone else all the freaking time. That is so draining. And I get it. Like, you're trying to be competitive with your friends, you know, your buddies in the jamming, and you just happen to. I mean, women, they're. I mean, we got girls that are 20 years old. They're looking pretty muscular, so they're taking some risks at a very early age than we ever have seen. And they're getting paid. So there's that component.
- [73:48]
B
Yeah.
- [73:49]
A
So, hell yeah, you're gonna have body dysmorphia. Some of these guys never come off. So why would they. When they're getting paid for their TikTok, why would they get. You know, like, some people have created characters and when they realize, like, wow, I don't want to be that character no more. I have no identity.
- [74:07]
B
Who am I now?
- [74:08]
A
Right. I'm nothing. Yeah. And that goes in their head. I'm sure they ain't going to say it, but, like, it's in their head.
- [74:13]
B
Someone. Someone said to me once, relatively recently, it's not who you are, but whose you are. You know, mentioning God and that really helped.
- [74:22]
A
Wow.
- [74:22]
B
Quite a bit. Because that's your identity.
- [74:24]
A
That's right.
- [74:25]
B
If you believe in God, then that's your identity.
- [74:26]
A
It's not. That's so powerful, dude. I love that. I'm gonna. I'm gonna use that now. Thank you. Because, yeah, this past week I was talking to my wife about similar. I was like, you know, we. We walked through this life and we fail to realize that we're seeking love from the world when really he already love you. So if you already believe, you don't really have to seek. You don't really have to seek him because he's already in you. You just have to acknowledge that he's here. And that should put a smile on Your face to be like, man, he's already here. I can already talk to him. I can tell him my worries, my fears. Holy smokes. Okay. But I got to believe, and I got to go to work. But I got to be in love with this life that I have, because at some point in time, it's going to end. And I think a lot of these people have to recognize that they have a very. They have a lot of opportunity, but they waste their time comparing themselves to others way too much, and they. They don't even love who they are. And I. I think that's sad. Like, I can say that I loved playing hoops. Did I love sitting at bench in college? Hell, no. But I loved meeting my best friend, who I'm still friends with to today. I still love the fact that, you know, I got to meet Phil Knight, the CEO of Nike, by playing against Oregon and Oregon State, you know, and my college coach happened to be golf partners with them. I got a whole tour of that facility. So I should love the fact that I had that experience. And just seeing the alchemy of life, like, seeing it for what it is like, and life is happening more for me than against me. So what are we really talking about? And having body dysmorphia is like, what is that going to solve? That means you don't love yourself. So when I meet young people that say, man, I've been stuck at £200 and this snap, like I'm trying to. And I'm like, well, number one, like, what's the real goal here? You trying to turn pro or you're just trying to be famous? You know what I'm saying? Like, usually it's a fame thing and they want to make money. Okay, well, that's still evil in a way.
- [76:41]
B
They want to feel love is what they want to feel.
- [76:42]
A
Exactly. So, like, that starts from you. And if they can just, I don't know, maybe sit still for a minute and then ask themselves, how many times have they pulled themselves out of some situations? Or maybe the man upstairs kind of, you know, because really, that was the person that was doing it. You should be in more gratitude for what you got and what you can do. And you just got to keep, you know, hands to the plow, as they say. Right? Gotta put hands to the plow. And, you know, I write, you know, we all have vision boards and stuff. And on mine, I was writing down, like, what was it? What was it? Was it Matthew? Matthew 19:26, 24, I think it was saying, like, basically saying like with man, like, you know, doing stuff through man, like it's impossible. But with God, anything is possible. Yeah, you got to really think like that. So when you over here like, oh man, I can't. What are you talking about? Yeah, and maybe 250 pounds ain't supposed to be for you. You know, maybe eight times. Mr. Olympia wasn't supposed to be for me. But what can be my eighth Sandow and I, I had to ask myself that so then I wouldn't get into this body dysmorphia. I was like, my eighth Sandow will be contribution, my eighth and that will be staying involved in the sport that gave me opportunity and meaning and being available. Like when you asked me about, like, do I mentor people? Look, I, I do performance coaching and such, but those are for people that hire me. Right. I'm always available and I mean available at these expos, like I said. But I can't make you. So my now career is just being of service. I want to be a service driven leader that believes in God, that just wants people to do better for their life and have the courage to ask themselves, what is it that you want? And giving yourself permission to go for it. Like, you got to give yourself permission to say, hey, I want that. Is that toxic? So I got to have some discernment. And I don't think every young person knows what that word even means, let alone apply it. You got to bump your head a few times, get your butt kicked. But I think, you know, over time, you know, you kind of figure that out in that way, like through love, at least you can sleep better and not as stressed because that'll kill you.
- [78:59]
B
Absolutely. Do you. What are you. So moving forward, what are your plans with. You're involved in some philanthropy, are you? So talk about that a little bit.
- [79:07]
A
So you know, I've always been involved in philanthropy such as like, like the, the Make It Fit Foundation. I was always doing appearances and events through the through during the week of the Arnold Classic. Kind of went away from that. But that was an organization I was working with for autism awareness. Right now my main focus is with this new administration is I got to get with this RFK dude, man. Yeah, that'd be great because man, like there's just so much like I really do believe that the president's, you know, council fitness, like that needs to be re established totally.
- [79:39]
B
We need that.
- [79:40]
A
It has to happen I think right.
- [79:41]
B
Now, like and for the first time, I mean listening to. I've never been optimistic, never optimistic about government policy. When it comes to health, they're typically the opposite of what's good for you.
- [79:52]
A
Right.
- [79:52]
B
But for the first time ever, some of the stuff they're saying, I'm like, huh? I feel a little bit like we might be moving in the right direction.
- [79:58]
A
We're on to something, right?
- [79:59]
B
Yes.
- [80:00]
A
Yeah. I feel like if we're not. Like, I. Like, I went to inauguration, and I just went to White House for. It was an acknowledgment for. For Black History Month, and I was sitting with Judge Joe Brown, and he goes, you. He goes, you. And I was like, yes, sir. He goes, you. The way you look and the way you speak. He's like, we need that. I was like, what are you talking about? He said, we need strength with this health and fitness stuff. These kids and adults and people having misinformation and all this other stuff. He's like, but you have to align yourself with the right people that, you know, that understand we can't be living like this no more. Like, you know, we all have to collaborate more. Yep. Because we do have a small window of opportunity to kind of get the echo chamber going and. And kind of change the perception of, like, hey, what's real health? Like, what are we really talking about? Like, what are we really fighting against? Who are we fighting for? Like, is there common sense in this? Is there wasteful spending in this? Why do I. When I travel abroad, like, my wife and I will have, like, an aperol spritz. Right. That aperol spritz in Italy is the label, like, no red 40, no nothing. None of these weird ingredients in America, it's all, like, all this crazy stuff.
- [81:19]
B
Yeah.
- [81:19]
A
I could literally go to France, have a burger from McDonald's, not have any type of completely different shoes. Yeah. Nothing I did on purpose. I was like, I'm just gonna eat one of these because I don't eat that stuff. I was like, I'm gonna eat. Eat this. I go to America, eat it. I mean, bubble guts.
- [81:36]
B
Like.
- [81:37]
A
Like, nobody did. You see what's going on here?
- [81:39]
B
It's crazy. What's. Is his name? Brett Weinstein? He was. He just went to Europe, so he avoids. He can't have any wheat. He gets these crazy reactions. He did an experiment, went out there. He's like, I hear people saying they can eat wheat out here. So he started eating. No reaction.
- [81:52]
A
Yeah. So he. So he has celiac or, like, he.
- [81:54]
B
No, not celiac, but just severe gluten. Gluten, wow. Yeah.
- [81:57]
A
So, yeah, no problem.
- [81:58]
B
No, no problem. And he was Posting about that.
- [82:01]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not spraying with Monsanto.
- [82:03]
B
That might be one of the things, at least one factor I've experienced that, like, I can go to Europe and eat foods there that, that I couldn't eat here. Same food. Like, I'd have bread over there. Over here. Bread starts to mess me up.
- [82:13]
A
Yeah.
- [82:13]
B
So something's going.
- [82:14]
A
So just little stuff like that. And then finding, you know, through social media, having, you know, social media is so powerful. Like, you know, you're running into other athletes that believe in the same things. So it's like we should be uniting, like, freaking Voltron, man. Like, totally. And really do this. So it's a great opportunity. I mean, that's where my heart is. You know, if. If I could be a part of something in government that, you know, works with kids. Like, I believe that, like schools From K through 12 and especially high school, open campuses for high school. I'm not saying you shouldn't have it. What I'm saying is, is that. And I've been saying this for like 20 years, open concept for lunch. You want to reduce kids ditching fifth and sixth period. Have better food inside the high school. You know, but it's kind of hard because the schools, they need money for the reader boards, for the gym. Yeah. Because locked in these contracts. Yeah. Because they get locked in with Pepsi Cola, you know what? And they put the damn vending machines on every corner, every hallway, every floor, the high school.
- [83:15]
B
Oh.
- [83:16]
A
And that's how they pay for it. But I think there's got to be a way to raise money so that. That is not the only option. There has to be a way. Compete with it. To compete with it. Right. And if we could do that just in that I think the kids would have better scholastic achievement.
- [83:32]
B
Of course.
- [83:33]
A
Through standardized tests. Teachers don't even want to have these kids taking these standardized tests because they realize, like, number one, their teacher methods suck. And then two, the kids aren't focused because they're high on freaking caffeine. You know, kids walking around, you know, sodas and stuff, nonstop. Bad food. And some kids, their parents aren't well off enough to provide them good food. So maybe when they go to school, that's the only nutrition they're gonna get. So we gotta make sure that they have good food, you know, good options. I'm pretty sure if kids had better options, they would make those wise decisions.
- [84:05]
B
It's also an important time for sure. Because if you start with a kid and they learn, they develop a lifestyle that then sticks with them. So It's a very important time. If I could just influence you a little bit, if you have any influence with any of their policies, I think it would be very important. And this is a bit controversial, but I think it's very important for our incarceration system to have weights and fitness be a part of their rehab. I know a lot of the prisons in California got rid of those.
- [84:34]
A
They were afraid of the violence.
- [84:36]
B
Well, they were afraid of the inmates getting too, too big or whatever. But fitness, exercise, strength training, there's got to be a way we could do it because it's, it's, I could see it be such an important part of rehabilitation. The structure, the discipline, purpose. And, you know, maybe now you have something you could take away if they, you know, act out or whatever. But I would love that, I would love to see that. But that's got taken away. I know in California they don't, they don't allow that.
- [85:03]
A
Yeah, y'all got a lot of, you.
- [85:04]
B
Got a lot of things going on here.
- [85:06]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, there's a, there's two sides of the coin. But I, I'm, I'm with you on it because not everybody committed like some crazy crime. You know, we're talking about like, you know, ax murderer and stuff like that. Some people. But even then, these are things that you could take away as a privilege. Maybe you don't have like a ton of plates, you know, maybe they're just pin loaded machines. I don't know. But I think they should be able to work out. I think they should have different options, I think.
- [85:38]
B
I know, I know. Arnold used to visit prisons all the time.
- [85:40]
A
Yeah. I think we'd be very surprised to see maybe not a Mr. Olympia, but damn near close. No, I'm just saying, like you get a high school kid that committed murder or something like that, probably genetically blessed beyond belief, maybe that person becomes some viral. You know, I don't know, but I've.
- [86:00]
B
Met a lot of guys like managing gyms. I've worked, I've had a lot of trainers work for me who had a past.
- [86:05]
A
Yeah.
- [86:05]
B
And fitness was one of their ways out. They didn't compete or anything, but they just found structure in it. They found discipline in it. It made them feel good about themselves. And then they developed, they built a career in fitness as a result. So.
- [86:18]
A
Yeah, I love what it brings. I'm with you on that. As, as well. I think it's very important that people, you know, through fitness, they have that structure.
- [86:27]
B
Yeah.
- [86:27]
A
And they could. That's something that could be applicable into everything. And it is about self respect too.
- [86:32]
B
Totally. And physical health is very closely connected to mental health. Yeah. You know, you make someone physically unhealthy, their mental health starts to go down as well.
- [86:39]
A
Yeah, I don't see like gross minded too. Yeah. How do you expect someone to. Yeah, that's tough, man. Because I'm thinking, like, you want to empower someone, they're locked up. And then for the, the, the. The officers that are there, y'all need to start training them too.
- [86:57]
B
Yeah.
- [86:58]
A
You know, like, maybe y'all need to start training too, if they're going to complain. It's like, you know, y'all start training, get better, be good for them too. You got the equalizer too. So, I mean, just saying, like, you got other. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, maybe I've watched too much Mayors of Kingstown and think of like, you know, prison takeovers and stuff, you know, So I guess, I mean, that's.
- [87:17]
B
That can all happen for sure, but. But I don't think none of it. I don't think that's the answer is what I'm trying to say.
- [87:23]
A
No, no, I think we all need. Wouldn't it be great? Like, let me ask you, do you remember that. What was it called? Like, remember espn? Like early in the morning, like with Galad and all those dudes, like they were trained on the beach and stuff.
- [87:36]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [87:38]
A
It was like bodies in motion.
- [87:39]
B
That's right. That's right.
- [87:40]
A
Watching that, I think that's what probably struck an interest for me now. I think about it, really. My mom would wake up in the morning, the morning, like at 5 in the morning, she'd be on a treadmill, like at 5:30. And then we lived in a small house at the time, so I could hear the, the treadmill, you know, the steps. And I'm like, what's going on? Like, my mom in there every day. And then I start watching, you know, just like any kid, you know, you'd be like, what's going on? He's curious. And then you see a couple bikini.
- [88:04]
B
Miles, you're like, yeah, now you're watching.
- [88:07]
A
I'm like, okay. And then that was back in the day too. Like, you know, they had Flex magazine working out.
- [88:11]
B
That's right, the Boy or co. And.
- [88:12]
A
And that was awesome, man. Those are good times.
- [88:15]
B
Do you have a favorite era of bodybuilding?
- [88:19]
A
Outside of my own, a lot of.
- [88:22]
B
People like to talk about the 90s, but I think that's because those of us who grew up watching the 90s now we're old enough to talk about, you know, talk about it all the time. But, yeah. Do you have an era that you look at and you go, man, that was a. I would have loved to have competed in that era.
- [88:36]
A
Oh. I mean, I would have loved to compete, like, during Dorian and Ronnie's era, for sure. I would have loved to be able to stand toe to toe with them just so I could end the argument.
- [88:46]
B
Are you. Are you. Do you find yourself getting compared all the time to.
- [88:49]
A
I mean, I think anytime a new pro comes out, I just look at social media, right? I think one of the greatest compliments you can receive is when they compare you.
- [89:00]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [89:01]
A
So, like, a person turns pro or has a great showing, they say, oh, he's reminiscent of Phil Heath. Is he the next dream killer? Is he the next this? So I look at that, I'm like, well, I did something right out of any poll. It's always been like, you know, and I've had other athletes, you know, tell me, like, I would not do well against Ronnie Coleman. And even Ronnie probably thinks that he would smash me and stuff. I just. I think that we would be very competitive because of the current criteria. I think with the criteria that we have today, he. It would depend on the year. You know, I think 98, 99 would be very difficult. The other ones where he got bigger, he was more washed out in the front, but he was ripped from the rear. You know what I mean? We were talking about glutes and hamstrings, but I already had that. You talk about the slabs of beef on his back. Okay, that's great. But, like, was it crisp? Was it dry? Was it hard? Now we're going into, like, very fine tuning, and it's a great conversation.
- [90:00]
B
It is.
- [90:01]
A
You know, I'm like, Kobe, man. Like, I'm not gonna say, like. Like, Kobe wouldn't say, like, hey, I'm better than Jordan and this and that. What he got from Jordan is what, you know, made him great. You know, what I. What I did was I took a bit from everyone and made myself great. But I will say I loved watching Flex Wheeler compete, man, when he was on. Yeah, I never saw it live, obviously, but I'd look at that. I'm like, that is ridiculous.
- [90:25]
B
Yeah. When you won the Arnold, I think. What year was that? 95.
- [90:28]
A
Yeah, he was. It was like, yeah, silly. And he wasn't huge either. No. But it was just so well put together. And I also think, like, I have this conversation every Maybe a couple times a year. The black backgrounds were different, cameras were different. We're looking at something that was heavily sharpened. VHS converted to streaming now. You know what I mean? Like, online.
- [90:55]
B
So it looks different.
- [90:56]
A
Yeah, it looks different. Like, you're looking at. Everybody Talks about the 99 British Grand Prix when they had Kevin Levroni come out and he looked, you know, oh, he was hard, and nails and this. And I'm like, guys, he was probably hard. No question about it. But, like, you're looking at an image that was sharpened on vhs. Like, you don't even know what that is. Like, I know what that looks like. I could turn a knob and actually make everything look more grainy, Dorian. Grainy. We already know that. But, like, I still believe. Like, for myself, I would have had no problem competing in any era. That was my whole goal. Once I won my first Olympia, I was like, that's best I want to be. Yeah. Because I know how sports work.
- [91:31]
B
Yeah.
- [91:32]
A
Like, once you win a title, it's like, how many can you get now?
- [91:35]
B
Right?
- [91:35]
A
It's like playing Call of Duty. Like, you beat the game. Like, you know what I'm saying? But how many times can you. Prestige, right? Like, the people that get the most respect online is the one that have, like, 10th level prestige or whatever. In bodybuilding, you got Ronnie and Lee, eighth level. Now I'm seven. I knew in my heart, I was like, I win this first one, I was like, saw what happened to Dexter. He only won one. You got to win at least four because you're with Jay. And then I got four, and then I got five, and I'm like, oh, man, you got to get seven. I got to get. I gotta. I gotta beat Dorian, because then you're gonna be in that, you know, the conversation. So I'm already planning on, what, six. He won six. So I'm already thinking in my head, like, oh, man, you just. If you can get seven, like, because that's saying a lot. And then I said, I'm gonna get 10 of these damn things. You know, don't put no limit on. Right? And a lot of people I remember online were like, this guy's an. And he's arrogant. He's this. And I was like, dude, like, I got goals, man.
- [92:31]
B
Competitive.
- [92:32]
A
What you hating for? This ain't got nothing to do with you. This has all the do with me and God's plan, man. Like, I'm just trying to fulfill what I. What I believe is true, you know? But I still got to do the work. I believe I was willing to do the work and. But yeah, it's, it's crazy when you, I look back at it now, the eras. I think the 90s was great because you had a gene pool. Greater gene pool.
- [92:56]
B
Yeah, you had a lot of guys.
- [92:57]
A
That great gene pool. Sean Ray, Kevin, Chris Cormier.
- [93:01]
B
Yeah, Nasser.
- [93:02]
A
Nasser. All these guys, like young Jay Cutler. Like you had, I mean, he had Aaron Baker. You had all these guys, like different Gunter Schlier camp. Like, you had all these guys and they weren't shredded but round, well put together and then, you know, come to 2000s. Yes, they were rewarding size and such, but I'm glad the judges did what they did because it pushed everybody. We would not have, if we didn't have a Ronnie Coleman, I don't know what our sport would look like.
- [93:32]
B
Do you, do you, what do you think of the Classic?
- [93:37]
A
I actually became more of a fan of it this year at the Arnold. Not that I was not a fan at all. I just became more over the past year. Watching Chris Bumstead retire, I was like, I got tears in my eyes, you know, like watching someone do this. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. I think it was more of the fact that even with Chris, like, it was like watching a person have a goal. He, he did what he wanted to do. He battled a lot of injuries. That was neat. Then watching this year's Arnold, I was like, wow. Like, these guys, this is really cool. Like, they have the height and the weight category. They have to fit in a box. That's not easy. I love the way these guys looked. I was looked at Logan Franklin, I was like, holy crap. Like, this guy came out of nowhere, you know, he was my dark horse, you know, and he got second. I was like, wow, this is really neat. What an inclusive division, you know, like. And I remember talking to our lead president, Jim Mannion. He was like, if I didn't create this, we would not see a Chris Bumstead, we would not have a Brion. Like, we wouldn't have these amazing athletes because it would have just been open bodybuilding.
- [94:42]
B
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it would have existed without social media. I think social media has opened the doors for all these different kind of categories. Although I, I, I, it's how challenging to be limited. Like, in open, you just go, yeah, and just be the, the best as you can possibly be in. In classic, it's like you go too far. Yeah, now you're another category.
- [95:04]
A
Yeah, I, I, I totally get That I actually believe. Like, some of those guys, I believe they're great. But I think that division, there's a. There's a future Mr. Olympia that's probably doing that division too long because they're trying to be.
- [95:23]
B
Because they could just go, right?
- [95:24]
A
Yeah, because they. Because they realize. Or maybe they haven't realized it, but I'm not gonna name names, but I can look at some guys that compete in that category. I'm like, dude, man, I could probably train you and show you some things. You could really hurt some feelings. And open. But, you know, they have a limited belief system. That's why they. And a lot of people. This is no dig on them or any other category. Division. A lot of. A lot of people don't do open because a limiting belief system. I can never get, like, that, where I'd have to do this, why I have to do that. It's like, no, you just have to be you and let the chips fall. But I do like classic. I even like men's physique. I think it's like I said, it's all inclusive. Like, everybody. Like, you know, you get guys that, you know, do the amateur competitions, doing men's physique, then go play flag football the next week. Yeah, like, that's pretty cool. You know, you get guys that. I know. I know ex pro football players that are getting ready to do classic and miss physique.
- [96:20]
B
Oh, wow.
- [96:21]
A
Because they're just like, hey, I just want to do something. Yeah. And they don't have the. And they. Yeah. And they don't have the goal to gain £40.
- [96:28]
B
Yeah.
- [96:29]
A
To do open, you know.
- [96:30]
B
Well, it seems like strength training is having its. Its moment finally. It looks like mainstream is starting to pick up on it. I can't believe how many women lift weights now. I mean, I've been doing this for so long. I remember when. Yeah. The free waiter. It was like there was no women in there.
- [96:44]
A
Yeah.
- [96:45]
B
And now women are talking about lifting weights for fat loss, which is amazing. So I think we're now kind of like entering into the golden era of. Of strength training. I would say for the mainstream.
- [96:56]
A
They want to show off those glutes, you know?
- [96:57]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [96:58]
A
You know, I mean, straight up, man. Like, really? Yeah. It's more. I don't know, like, when I go to the gym, I'm like, okay, so they're in here. All right, that's cool. But they're really in here to get that ass big. It's just major priority. They're not there to go Grow pecs. Like they're, they.
- [97:18]
B
I never thought I'd see disproportionate glutes. I'm starting to see that now. Like just hip thrust.
- [97:23]
A
They're just, they're just doing hip thrust like all day, like all day long. Like, I wanted, I wanted to do the. Nevermind, you know, like, if I was to open up a gym, I'd be like, okay, glute area. Yeah, go be a lot bigger. Yeah. Way over there. Yeah. No, I think it's great that women are looking more toward the conversation of, I'm not here toning, I'm here building to build. Which that was the whole point. I think even women talking to other women were like, you're not toning, you're growing muscle.
- [97:53]
B
Yeah.
- [97:54]
A
And growing muscle is sexy. Like, it's great. You know, you get healthy and Very much so. And it does keep them, you know, looking younger. I mean, some women that, like, I put on a bodybuilding show every year in Texas, right. And we'll get a woman that's like mother of four, close to 50, and she's beating some of these younger girls.
- [98:14]
B
Yeah, that's great.
- [98:14]
A
And I'll ask them like, so what did you do? And they're like, I haven't stopped training. Even when I had kids, like, I, I made sure I, I did something. I didn't stop moving. I talked to Arnold last week. I was like, what's, what do you think your secret is? He goes, never stop moving. Never stop lifting. Weights might lift lighter, you know, because you can't press as much, but you gotta lift. But I love the fact when I hear women talk about lifting at older ages, you know, to, I mean, you know, all these facts, you know, with osteoporosis, all this other stuff, I think it's great and it's fun too, because I think that should be something every couple should do, you know, like, why wouldn't you want. Like, I'm not a good husband if I don't encourage my wife to weight train or do Pilates or, you know, do something, you know, and vice versa. You just want to sit there and rest, you know, like you decay.
- [99:04]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [99:05]
A
And then get mad, you know, grow together.
- [99:08]
B
Keep it going.
- [99:09]
A
Yeah. Or get, or get out of shape together. And then.
- [99:11]
B
Yeah, the other way. Yeah.
- [99:13]
A
Fist bumping in the, you know, in the hospital, I guess. And you know, that, that's the harsh reality. But yeah, no, I think we're in a, we're in a really great moment. I just revert back to Social media, like, so really, why are you doing it? Because you can't just do it for the revenge body. Eventually you got to do this. Because if the lights got shut off. Meaning, like, you've seen that. Y'all seen this? Like, when Instagram goes down for like an hour, people losing a damn mind.
- [99:44]
B
Yeah.
- [99:45]
A
Yeah. So you wouldn't. So more than likely, majority of these people. Let me ask you, like, do you guys think that more majority of people wouldn't go to the gym if social media didn't exist?
- [99:53]
B
I think there's a percentage, yeah, definitely. But the average person does it because they want to improve the way they look and their health. But there's that loud minority of people that do it for the social. And I see it now. I never saw this before, but I see people now bring the tripod to the gym and they're filming themselves. I'm like, unless you're making money doing this, I don't know why you're filming yourself.
- [100:15]
A
I guess that's my question too. It's like, so what's this about?
- [100:21]
B
You know, I was, you know, I was watching Pumping Iron the other day, and I. Every once in a while, I'm just.
- [100:27]
A
Thinking about it, like, yeah, go ahead.
- [100:28]
B
Every once in a while. So I. I was listening in the background while they're talking, and I noticed there was no music, no nothing. They were just working out in the gym. And I'm like, oh, I wonder what that would be.
- [100:38]
A
That'd be today.
- [100:40]
B
No.
- [100:40]
A
Oh, people lose. People lose their mind. Like when we would do photo shoots, like, after the Olympia, people lose their mind because you turn the music. Because we'd have to turn the music off. We'd tell the owner, like, hey, we're doing photo shoot. You know, we need to have the music off. And they were like, oh, man. We're like, we will pay to turn it off. Okay. And then turn off. And you get members, like, flipping out. And we're like, dude, that's why you wear headphones.
- [101:03]
B
Yeah.
- [101:04]
A
But to. To prohibit. Maybe that would be a good. Like. Yeah, like, hey, during these hours, just. There's no music.
- [101:13]
B
We're just working out.
- [101:14]
A
We're just gonna work out. Or, hey, we're trying to do a social experiment. Yeah, you gotta leave the phones in locker. Those Faraday bags. Yeah, Faraday bags for everybody.
- [101:24]
B
Yeah.
- [101:26]
A
And we're just gonna have everybody train for next four hours and see.
- [101:31]
B
See what happens after a while.
- [101:33]
A
Like, that'd be a good experiment. I think I would.
- [101:35]
B
I think I would. I would like it.
- [101:36]
A
I think it would take maybe a week or two.
- [101:39]
B
Exactly.
- [101:39]
A
And then little detox and then maybe we'd all start hanging out.
- [101:43]
B
Yeah.
- [101:43]
A
Talking. Yeah. Helping each other.
- [101:45]
B
That's right.
- [101:46]
A
Right. You know, spot spotting correctly and being an actual community. Whoa.
- [101:52]
B
What? Yeah.
- [101:53]
A
Like, how is that possible?
- [101:54]
B
Yeah.
- [101:55]
A
Instead of, like you said, just, okay, I'm coming in there with two tripods, a phone, dslr, got my friend who's editing, and I've got thousand followers. And again, like, I, I understand there's commerce in this, so I can't hate on it, but I went to a gym the other day and they have like, they actually have tripods there for you to use. Wow.
- [102:18]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [102:19]
A
So very different. I didn't know what to. You know what I mean? I was like, wow, that's really cool, you know, that they're being so accommodating.
- [102:27]
B
Yeah.
- [102:27]
A
Because I guess that helps the gym owner. Right. But then I'm like, guys like us don't want to go to that gym. Right.
- [102:35]
B
At least me.
- [102:36]
A
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. And I got, I. I don't know how you guys feel about this, but you're in there to really get after it. Right. And you see someone flat out do a 20, 30 minute weight session. They've changed clothes four times and they leave.
- [102:53]
B
Yeah.
- [102:54]
A
And they've lived. They left every dumbbell plate.
- [102:56]
B
Yeah, that's. That's. There's a gym culture that you and I've seen. You got to understand that.
- [103:00]
A
I've seen that. Like, even at Arm Breast where I trained for those Olympias, I go in there one day and I see this guy and a girl and they've got like a gym bag full of clothes and they're just like. And I'm like, okay, they're doing content. Okay, no problem. But then they just did very little, but created a lot of space and pandemonium and then just bounced.
- [103:20]
B
That's everything.
- [103:22]
A
So that's what your workout is. But then I go on their social and they're like, yeah, I just got done killing it, you know, killing the gym, this. And then I'm like, yes.
- [103:31]
B
Bit of a show. Yeah, I kicked him out of my gym.
- [103:33]
A
Oh, you would?
- [103:34]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [103:35]
A
You'd be like, hey, like, how would you do it?
- [103:36]
B
I would just get you just. You either work out or you leave. Yeah, yeah, go do your content somewhere else, you know, and maybe that wouldn't be good for business, but I think it would. I think you could charge more because people would pay more to have A gym or the atmosphere was real gym culture.
- [103:52]
A
Do you think this current era of let's say 18 to 24 year olds even understand what like you talk about gym culture?
- [104:04]
B
Yeah, I think that you're seeing a little bit of a backlash because they grew up with social media, cell phones, easy access to everything. And you're now starting to see data showing that a lot of them, some of them are getting flip phones because they want to just get off their phones.
- [104:19]
A
They're seeking hard things.
- [104:20]
B
Yeah, I think that they're like, I think they're starting, some of them are starting to realize, like, yeah, I got to do something different. I'm unhappy, I'm anxious. So I think you'll start seeing a little bit of a shift to where people are not going to be on as much. Not, not most people, but I think there'll be some people that are doing that and you're starting to see that with some kids. Gen Z is very interesting. If you look at the data, the different, they're, they're coming out different for sure.
- [104:45]
A
Huh. So they're just a little bit more curious.
- [104:48]
B
They're more, they're, they're going back to faith and they're especially Gen Z values.
- [104:53]
A
They're kind of grabbing.
- [104:54]
B
Yeah. And I think it works, right? I think it's because they grew up circle, you know? Yeah.
- [104:58]
A
So, yeah, they, yeah, they just. I'm glad to hear that because I worry a little bit. You know, like you're consumed. You're, you're, you're praying to this phone.
- [105:11]
B
That's right.
- [105:12]
A
All the time. It's like, this isn't like you're getting overwhelmed because of this device and that you have no vibration, nothing high. It's all low vibrational crap. I literally can get on my phone first thing in the morning and I've had to practice mindfulness because if I grab that phone and I love going on X. Yeah. And it's drama on X.
- [105:38]
B
That's all it is.
- [105:39]
A
But it's kind of funny. I mean, you know, and I have a decent sense of humor. So I read this, I'm like. And I'm like, turn it off. No, no. And I literally had to put post it notes. My wife was like, you got to put the damn post it notes on your side of the bathroom. I was like, yeah, you're right. Meditation, prayer. Then you know, check email.
- [106:04]
B
Yeah.
- [106:04]
A
Then check text. You gotta have some like 20 minutes for yourself barriers there. Yeah, dude. Because otherwise I'm grabbing the phone right away. It's like Right next to your, on your nightstand. Totally. You never get away from it and it will consume you totally as much as you think it. Oh.
- [106:19]
B
Like, I think a lot of the things you learned too, with the discipline of bodybuilding can be applied so many different places. Just the discipline aspect of it, because you, you train yourself for so long to eat on a schedule, train at this time, whatever, so you start to identify issues in your life. You can, you've got that carryover of discipline. Say, okay, I'm going to make it so I'm not on my phone and I'm going to do it at this time. I'm going to go on this. You know.
- [106:40]
A
Where do you think that was applicable for you? Like, like where?
- [106:45]
B
Like, oh, everything. Everything. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you learn, you learn to embrace struggle, you develop a different relationship with pain. You learn how to apply discipline. You learn how you can make something an idol that's not supposed to be your God. That's a big one, boy.
- [107:01]
A
I'm taking a deep breath on that one.
- [107:02]
B
That's a very big one.
- [107:03]
A
Yeah. Huge, man.
- [107:05]
B
But I think you learn it's a great vehicle for growth, but it is not the. The end.
- [107:09]
A
The end all.
- [107:10]
B
No.
- [107:11]
A
When did you. Have you always been like that or no?
- [107:13]
B
Oh, man, this is. No, I, I just, I mean, I came to Faith recently and that's really what made the biggest, the biggest difference for me.
- [107:20]
A
That's awesome.
- [107:20]
B
Before that, it was just body image issues and training other people helped a lot because I cared about them. So it was easy for me to see what they were doing and help them, but then eventually start to go, maybe I should take my own advice. I think we all got to do. That's it.
- [107:37]
A
Yeah. No, that's great, man. I appreciate Shannon because I catch myself sometimes, you know, I'll do a post and I'm writing all this stuff and I'm like, now you. Before you press send, are you emulating this? Not just today, but you've been doing this consistently. And if not, you might want to save this in your draft, in your draft folder. Because I feel like if I press send up there. No, for real, because I've done that. Integrity. Got slapped.
- [108:11]
B
Yeah.
- [108:12]
A
Got slapped with some reality. Like a friend will call me out, wife call me out, and I'll be like, now you're right, you know, because then you realize, like, I'm just saying some words or my acting, you know, am I working with conviction or I'm just trying to sound cool for social.
- [108:27]
B
Yeah.
- [108:28]
A
And just having the integrity you know what I mean? That's it, you know? Because I think when you do have that faith, you realize, like, that's the person you answer to.
- [108:36]
B
You got some of the point.
- [108:36]
A
Yeah, you gotta have, you know, your North Star. And I think a lot of the time, like, you end up just saying stuff. My, My stepdad, he used to say people just flap their jaws to hear their teeth do the boogie. And you see that every freaking day on social media. Media. And it's like, do you really do this? Did you really kill the gym today? What about yesterday? What was. What about tomorrow? How do you handle struggle? Is it always going to be grunting, cussing through workouts and stuff?
- [109:12]
B
You take it with a grain of salt. Social media is. I don't believe it's advertising.
- [109:15]
A
I don't believe them. No, because I've been in those gyms.
- [109:18]
B
And you're smart for not believing it. Everybody should not believe social media.
- [109:21]
A
For the most part, I don't believe it at all. Like, majority of the time, I don't believe. Believe it at all. Because I'm like, where's the proof in your performance?
- [109:25]
B
Yeah.
- [109:26]
A
Like, where did you become this millionaire? Or where did you become this guru? Or like, oh, you did one show and you turned pro and now you're this coach. Like, how amazing how you running gyms? Like, have you seen more? Because me, being a show promoter, I welcome everyone to do a competition, Right. But I find that with the increase in numbers, I find coaches wanting to be more famous than the athlete.
- [109:53]
B
Yeah.
- [109:53]
A
You find that more? Yeah, the coaches want to be like, look at me. Of course, look at me. This is what I did. This is Right. This is what I did. And okay, great. But then I feel like now, with all that said, these coaches are also being drug dealers just to get someone to compete. So then if I give you all these diets and stuff and I say, hey, just take this, where do we get that?
- [110:20]
B
I'll give it.
- [110:21]
A
And then I'll hook you up. And then I'm willing to push this client to go do xyz, just so then they place and they win. I don't know what's going to happen to them five years from now, but that's going to give me 10 more clients.
- [110:34]
B
Yeah.
- [110:35]
A
And I see that because I have some of these clients come up to me and say, is, is this what I should be doing? And I'm. Who gave this to you? Yeah, well, my coach. And this is a woman, you know. They told you to do this? No. What should I do.
- [110:59]
B
Yeah.
- [110:59]
A
This. Nothing more time in the gym, better posing, understanding how to peak. Well, that's.
- [111:09]
B
That's good that they can approach you.
- [111:10]
A
Like, I'm thankful it doesn't happen as much as I would like, well, good.
- [111:14]
B
So let people know.
- [111:14]
A
But I. But, yeah, no, I'm telling them all, like, hey, like, it's good, like, you know, going, you know, go on my link and bio on Instagram and hire me for a call. Hey, that's great. Because, you know, I've worked with people. That's what I currently do, you know, and most recently, I've done it for like, the past month. Like, like, legit. Like, this is. I'm gonna sit my ass at home and we answer calls all day, and there's so many people just getting cookie cutter advice. Yeah. And I. And I get so, like, shame on these trainers. That's what I really want to say. Like, shame on the trainers for wanting to be famous instead of just figuring out, like, how can you deliver this person to their goal without having to do anabolics? Can you do that? Can you just get them to a point where they've maxed themselves out? And then they can say, okay, let that be the choice of the athlete. But then also you be like the. The voice of reason of saying, I don't. You still lack in these areas. You still have, like, PDS ain't gonna make you grow a weak body part. Your form, your technique, you're able to recover. Spinal alignment, all this stuff, in my opinion, is what makes those body parts come up. Yep. Ain't no drug to go make that come up. No, that's why you see more guys, they get £300 and they still have weak points. Yeah, you should have, like, there should be more. I mean, you guys watch the sport. Like, how many guys have, like, no flaws?
- [112:42]
B
Yeah. No.
- [112:43]
A
Yeah. And they're winning, though. I'm like, damn.
- [112:47]
B
Well, I think my.
- [112:50]
A
You see how much I'm like, he wants to consist.
- [112:53]
B
I'll smash him. Well, Phil, this has been great. Been great having you on the show, bro. So it's. It's a long time coming. Really appreciate all your honesty. Got a great mentality. Yeah. Very, very good mentality. I can't wait to see what you're. You're going to be doing next.
- [113:06]
A
So. Yeah. No, I appreciate you guys. No, this has been fantastic. I love the studio.
- [113:10]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [113:11]
A
Freaking dope and. Yeah.
- [113:13]
B
Well, we definitely need to align with.
- [113:14]
A
That whole mission, you know, I can't youth and.
- [113:18]
B
Yeah. Get involved with that.
- [113:20]
A
You got to keep in touch, man. Because I think there's a lot, especially in the state of California. I mean, you guys got a lot. Tons of help.
- [113:25]
B
Yeah.
- [113:26]
A
Tons of athletes. And I know some guys too, that work with youth. My friend runs Premier League down in la. He trains like a lot of youth that end up going to college and stuff and such. But I feel like there's a nutrition aspect. I feel like there's a training aspect, definitely, that, you know, I think we can all collaborate on.
- [113:46]
B
Definitely.
- [113:46]
A
And now I keep looking, I'm like, I know you're saying goodbye, but like, I'm looking at Han Solo. Yeah, I gotta. I gotta come back because I'm a huge Star wars fanatic. Oh, man, we got this. Plenty to cover there.
- [113:57]
B
Yeah. Now you're in my world.
- [113:59]
A
Yeah, this is great.
- [114:00]
B
We'll have you back on for sure.
- [114:01]
A
No, thank you guys so much. And if there's anything I can do, you know, that to, you know, amplify whatever you guys going on, even just. I don't care what it is, man.
- [114:10]
B
All right.
- [114:11]
A
It's very rare that I meet gentlemen like yourselves and, you know, I just vibe out with, you know, this has been great. So thanks for having me.
- [114:17]
B
Appreciate that. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super bundle@mindpumpmedia.com the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free resources@mindpumpmedia.com if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.
- [115:28]
A
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B
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A
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