2580: Junk Volume: Doing Too Much Kills Your Progress

Summary

Summary of Mind Pump Podcast Episode 2580: "Junk Volume: Doing Too Much Kills Your Progress"

In episode 2580 of the Mind Pump podcast, hosts Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews delve deep into the concept of "junk volume" in fitness training. They explore how excessive training volume—not just in terms of the number of exercises but also the number of sets and repetitions—can impede progress, hinder recovery, and ultimately derail fitness goals. Drawing from their combined experience of over 40 years in the fitness industry, the hosts unravel the myths surrounding workout volume and provide actionable insights to optimize training for maximum gains.

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1. Introduction to Junk Volume

The episode kicks off with the hosts challenging the common belief that more is always better in the gym. They introduce "junk volume" as a critical obstacle that many fitness enthusiasts face without even realizing it.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [01:32]: "Junk volume isn't just wasting your time, it's stopping you from taking away from progress."

2. Defining Junk Volume

Adam elaborates on what constitutes junk volume, emphasizing that it's "more volume than is necessary to get you what you're looking for." He explains that while a certain amount of volume is essential for muscle growth and strength, exceeding this can actually hinder the body's ability to adapt and grow.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [02:11]: "If you do the right dose, it's always gonna give you the best results. More than that actually takes away from your ability to adapt."

3. Why Junk Volume is Prevalent

Justin and Adam discuss the natural tendency of individuals to increase workout volume over time, believing that more exercises, sets, and reps will lead to better results. They highlight how this progression often shifts from purposeful training to doing "anything to do" in the gym.

Quote:

Justin Andrews [03:44]: "It's a little nuanced... thinking that it's not junk volume because they can tolerate it or they can do it, not realizing that in relation to sleep, stress, nutrition, something that may not have been junk volume, say six months ago, could potentially also be junk volume now."

4. Identifying Junk Volume Exercises

The hosts identify specific types of exercises and training behaviors that typically fall into the junk volume category. They point out that isolation exercises and improper use of machines often contribute to unnecessary volume without significant benefits.

Quote:

Justin Andrews [05:19]: "The sideways hammer strength chest press... it's awkward, weird angle... it's just garbage."

5. Consequences of Excessive Volume

Excessive junk volume not only wastes time but also compromises recovery. Adam explains how adding too many low-value exercises can lead to stalled progress or even regression, as the body is unable to recover adequately from the increased stress.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [04:20]: "It's taking away from progress. So even if you're progressing while doing this, you're actually progressing at a much slower rate."

6. The Illusion of Progress Through Junk Volume

Justin discusses the deceptive feeling of working out hard through junk volume—such as the immediate muscle pump or burn—that makes individuals feel productive. However, this sensation doesn't translate to actual progress and can mask underlying inefficiencies in the training program.

Quote:

Justin Andrews [08:03]: "You're pumping a bunch of blood in there... we just neglect to understand how important the recovery process is."

7. Optimizing Training Volume

The conversation shifts to strategies for optimizing training volume. The hosts advocate focusing on compound lifts—exercises that work multiple muscle groups simultaneously—as these provide the most significant returns in terms of strength and muscle growth.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [13:08]: "Focus on the exercises that matter, not the ones that don't matter."

8. Personal Experiences and Examples

Adam shares a personal story about his early training days, highlighting how prioritizing essential lifts over flashy isolation movements led to better muscular development and strength gains. Justin complements this by discussing his experiences with clients who saw substantial progress after reducing junk volume.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [10:09]: "I could feel those little arm circles aren't going to do anything. But my overhead press will do a lot."

9. Junk Volume in Professional Bodybuilding

The hosts address why even professional bodybuilders incorporate junk volume into their routines. Adam explains that their exceptional genetics, possibly enhanced by anabolic steroids, allow them to handle higher volumes without the usual negative consequences.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [37:48]: "Pro bodybuilders... have muscle building genetics that don't. You're not even the same universe."

10. Listener Questions: Identifying and Combating Junk Volume

Sal introduces listener questions, prompting a discussion on the biggest junk volume exercises and the role of machines in contributing to unnecessary volume. The hosts agree that machines, when misused, often fall into this category, particularly exercises that isolate small muscle groups without offering significant functional benefits.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [32:11]: "Anytime someone uses a machine in a way that's not meant to be used, that's almost always a waste of time."

11. Strategies to Eliminate Junk Volume

To combat junk volume, the hosts suggest several strategies:

• Prioritize Compound Movements: Focus on exercises like squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and overhead presses.
• Monitor Total Volume: Keep an eye on the overall number of sets and reps to ensure they align with recovery capacity.
• Adjust Based on Recovery: Be flexible with training volume based on factors like sleep quality, stress levels, and nutrition.
• Incorporate Mobility Work: Replace excess volume with mobility and flexibility exercises to enhance recovery and performance.

Quote:

Adam Schafer [28:26]: "If you have bad sleep, just do seven sets instead of fifteen. Adjust right then and there."

12. The Psychological Aspect: Avoiding the Ego Trap

Justin addresses the psychological challenges trainers and athletes face, such as the desire to appear busy in the gym or the temptation to push through fatigue for the sake of the "pump." They emphasize the importance of trusting the training process and focusing on quality over quantity.

Quote:

Justin Andrews [19:47]: "It's ego-wise. It's hard to wrap your head around."

13. Conclusion: Quality Over Quantity

The episode wraps up with a strong emphasis on the principle that less can indeed be more when it comes to training volume. By eliminating junk volume and focusing on essential, compound movements, individuals can achieve more substantial and sustainable progress in their fitness journeys.

Final Insight:

Adam Schafer [22:23]: "We're constantly communicating the benefits of activity, but strength training has a 'perfect dose.' More than that will make results worse."

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Key Takeaways:

• Junk Volume Defined: Exercising beyond what's necessary can impede progress and recovery.
• Prioritize Compound Movements: Focus on exercises that yield the highest returns.
• Monitor Total Volume: Adjust based on individual recovery and life stressors.
• Avoid Isolation Overload: Limit low-value isolation exercises that contribute little to overall goals.
• Incorporate Mobility Work: Use extra gym time for mobility to enhance recovery and performance.
• Psychological Awareness: Recognize and overcome the desire to overexert for the sake of appearance.

By understanding and implementing these insights, listeners can refine their training programs to be more efficient, effective, and aligned with their fitness objectives.

Transcript

[Sal Destefano]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Adam Schaefer]

Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

[Sal Destefano]

With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[Adam Schaefer]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we talk about junk volume, wasted exercises, wasted sets. Are you doing more than is necessary? Or to put it more plainly, are you stopping your progress because you're wasting your time in the gym doing things that don't matter? Now, this episode is brought to you by Mind Pump Fitness Coaching. Look, if you're a trainer or a coach and you want to build your business, go to mindpumpfitnesscoaching.com we have a course that teaches you how to get leads, close deals, build your business. We teach you how to build your business. Me, Adam and Justin, ourselves, we're the ones teaching the course. Again, go to mindpumpfitnesscoaching.com by the way, you will get CEUs with the course with for NASM and AFAA. So it'll help you extend your certifications. We also have a sale this month, Maps hit and the Extreme Fitness bundle. They're both 50% off. If you're interested, go to maps fitnessproducts.com and then use the code APRIL50 for the discount. All right, back to the show. Junk volume, worthless exercises, sets and reps. Not only is a waste of time, it's probably likely preventing progress. It's true. If you're super consistent in the gym, you're not getting progress. This may be the reason why. So stop wasting your time. Let's get into it.

[Justin Andrews]

I think, Yeah, I think anybody who's been lifting for an extended period of time is probably guilty of this. Would you?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yep. It's a natural, I would say, progression to move into doing more, more, more. Not doing what's ideal, but rather what I can tolerate and doing what we would refer to as junk volume. And now there's a belief that junk volume is just extra stuff that's wasting your time, which is true. But the real reality, the truth, is much more sinister. The truth is, junk volume isn't just wasting your time.

[Unknown]

It's actually stopping you from taking away from progress.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's taking away from progress. So even if you're progressing while doing this, you're actually progressing at a much slower rate. But what's more likely to happen is you're just not going anywhere. And sometimes you're going backwards because you're doing a lot of things that don't they don't matter and they compromise recovery. And we'll get into all the, all the stuff about junk volume, but I would say this is a bigger problem for fitness fanatics than they would like to admit.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I think this warrants a conversation. I mean, I really wanted to do an episode on this because I think it's, it's not, it's not that easy because the target is, is continuing to move. Like you, like, there's a lot. There's like, generally speaking, this is junk volume and then there's. This is junk volume in relation to how's my eating, how's my sleep, how's my stress in my life too? So it's not as clear cut and dry as like, oh yeah. Well, if you do more than five exercises in a workout, that's all junk. Or oh, if you do this many total in a week, that's all junk. Or if you do these ex. Like there's. So this is why I think it's a bit nuanced. It's a little why I think even people that have been training for a very long time fall in this trap is thinking that it's not junk volume because they can tolerate it or they can do it, not realizing that in relation to the, the sleep, the stress, the nutrition, something that may not have been junk volume, say six months ago could potentially also be junk volume now.

[Adam Schaefer]

Really good point. So we could probably loosely describe or explain junk volume as more volume than is necessary to get you what you're looking for. So anything if you do the right dose, it's gonna, it's going to the right dose is always gonna give you the best results. More than that actually takes away from your ability to adapt. So more than that would be considered junk volume. Now there's more that goes into the conversation, like exercises that tend to fall into this category more than other exercises. Now you can do junk volume with the best exercises too, just by doing too much.

[Justin Andrews]

Right?

[Adam Schaefer]

But there are a lot of exercises out there that don't contribute much to most people's goals. All they tend to do is compromise recovery and take away from the most important exercise. Now, to be clear, in the right context, all exercises have value. So if an exercise exists, there's an application where I can make the case that there's value with that exercise. But generally speaking, there's a lot of exercises that don't matter that much. They just don't. And what ends up happening is we end up throwing them in, thinking that they make a difference, that okay, this is, this is good, you know.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I think a lot of times, almost like insurance policy, it's like I have to cover the bases here because I feel like I have to at least get an overall, you know, sort of an approach to strength, when in fact, a lot of what you don't consider is a lot of these, like, compound lifts, like, cover a lot more than I think people realize when you start, like, putting it out there and seeing how your body recovers.

[Justin Andrews]

I think a good example of this or one that comes to mind right away for me, and I remember when we first started the podcast, this was a very popular trend and we talked a lot about it, is would be like the sideways hammer strength chest press, you know what I'm saying? Where the guy gets in the side, he's sitting in a hammer strength, which is already a lesser exercise in comparison of the hierarchy of bench press, barbell, dumbbell, working your way down. So not only are you doing an inferior exercise already being on a hammer strength, which they're not bad, but then to actually turn your body sideways and do this awkward, weird angle. And yes, you can make a case for like, oh, this very specific client for this specific need. I could see where we might put that in there, but I would put this in a category of junk ball.

[Adam Schaefer]

Totally.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, this is like, this is just garbage. There's. I can list 20 other movements that are going to give you way more return that should be done in your workout before that. And if you've got the extra energy to do that or you have the extra room to do something that's going to add, you'd be better off doing something.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. So think of it this way. Right? Let's say you had two meters. One measures the, the, the stimulus to build muscle. Right. So. So how loud is the signal? The other one is how much recovery is required of this exercise. Right. Typically, the exercises that produce the loudest signal tend to also require the most recovery. That tends to happen. So what you tend to see is, let's say you do a barbell squat. Big stimulus. Okay. Big recovery from doing it. Now what I'm going to do is I'm going to throw in a bunch of worthless exercises to continue to try to move that top line further with the muscle signal. But all I'm really doing, because it's not really moving the top one at all, it adds nothing hindering the recovery. It's just adding more recovery. Yeah. And if that recovery sign out measures the signal sign, well, you're screwed now. Now you can send a great muscle building signal, but I require so much recovery that I'm going to surpass my ability to adapt. I'm just recovering. I'm just spinning my tires. What this looks like, by the way, is you go to the gym, you get sore, you have a good workout, get sore, you go back to the gym and you stay the same and you just do this week in and week out. Oh, yeah. How much do you use on the leg press? I use this much. Every week? Yes, every single week. Hasn't gone up in months. Well, you're wasting your time. You're going in there and you're spinning your tires in the dirt. You're not moving forward, not progressing, and that's what junk volume tends to do. Now the question is, why do we like it? Like, why is there, why is junk volume so prevalent? I think the first reason I would say is you feel like you're doing something. So when you feel like you're doing something, well, you're. The misunderstanding is you're actually doing something. So I'm in the gym and I'm doing the sideways chest press.

[Unknown]

I'm doing benefiting because I'm doing something.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it's like, oh, cool. I'm working more towards my goal, so I should get better results. So I, I would say that's probably the number one reason. The second being you feel the muscle.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

So you just. I continue to feel this muscle I'm trying to work, so it's tricking me into believing that I'm actually moving the needle when in fact I'm taking the needle and moving in the opposite direction because of the added, you know, damage, the added need for recovery.

[Justin Andrews]

You're also pumping a bunch of blood in there too, so it could, it could actually increase the pump. And so there's argument to. Yeah, I think there's a couple things that are happening that make us believe that, that it's good for us or that it's ideas like, okay, this must be good. It's burning. I'm getting pumped up. I can feel it in my chest and I'm working. Yeah, this has got to be a good thing. When again, I just, I think that we, we just neglect to understand how important the recovery process is in the overall building strength and building muscle. We put so much focus on the signal. Right. Of lifting the weight in the gym, thinking that, oh, the harder and the more. And the louder the signal, the more muscle my body will build. And it just, it doesn't work.

[Adam Schaefer]

I'll never forget When I was a, I was a young trainer, 18 year old trainer. My first job was at 24 Fitness and we had this district manager, Simon was his name and he was a previous strongman competitor. This was a long time ago. Okay, so strongman was. But anyway, he was a massive dude. He was huge. It was one of the biggest, strongest people I'd ever met up until this point. I mean, I'll never forget coming to work one of my first days and hearing, you know, someone rack in an incredible amount of weight. And he was out there repping, you know, he was overhead press, pressing and repping three plates. And it was just, you know, I'd never seen that before as a kid, right. So he's my boss's boss or my boss's boss's boss who's way up there. And I remember asking him about his delts. He had these crazy looking delts. And I said, you know, I like doing, you know, cable laterals from this angle and I like the incline bench. I'm doing this all stuff. And he goes just, he goes just. He was English, he had this English accent. He's like just overhead press. Two overhead presses.

[Unknown]

Yeah, covers it.

[Adam Schaefer]

And my reply to him was, but I really feel those exercises, like I really feel what I'm doing. And he goes, he goes, this is literally what he said to me. I'm a young kid, right? So he's like, put your arms out straight. So I did. And he goes, now circle, now do little circles with the arms. I said, you're going to feel your delts a lot in about five minutes, but you're not going to build anything. And I remember the point he made, I was like, yeah, oh yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Like a light bulb goes off.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah, I do feel that a lot.

[Justin Andrews]

That's such a good analogy though.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Especially when we talk about like building glutes. This is so common, right?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

And this was always a hurdle I was trying to overcome with my female clients that really want to build their glutes. And they're like, but I feel it.

[Adam Schaefer]

It burns, it burns.

[Justin Andrews]

And I can feel my butt working when I'm doing it. And when I squat, I don't really notice it. It's like, man, that's where you're going to get the butt. You're going to get it from those deep squats. You're not going to get it from those little kickbacks. Those kickbacks are just like the little, that's what you're doing for the butt, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you're going to burn them, but you're not going to. You're going to build a butt, you're going to build shoulders.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, it was like a light bulb for me as an 18 year old kid who's trying to build muscles. Like that's true. It will feel my delts burn like crazy, but those little arm circles aren't going to do anything. But my overhead press will do a lot. So I think the first thing to focus on here is to focus on the exercises that matter. Now why do they matter so much? Well, here's what happens, okay? If you and the exercise that matter, you've heard us talk about them a million times, it's your basic compound lifts. This isn't the only. These aren't the only exercises that matter, but these are the best examples of the ones that matters. Like your bench press, squatting, deadlifting, overhead pressing, rowing. Like they're just really good exercises. Because if you add 50 pounds to your squat, you're going to build more muscle in your lower body than if you added a hundred pounds to the. A machine for extension. Yes. Or an overhead press. You add 50 pounds to your overhead press, it's going to make more of a difference than if you add a bunch of weight to a bunch of cable exercise for your delts. It just has a huge return and that's what you want. You want a good return. So focus on the exercises that matter, not the ones that don't matter. So does it matter that you could do twice as many reps on your, your leg? Kickback for your glutes a little bit? What if you could double your reps on your squat or your deadlift? That would make a big difference with your glutes, you would see that way more return. By the way, this is true for athletics as well. When it comes to athletes, these exercises matter more than other exercises. It's funny, it's almost like as if they're connected, right? Function and getting those results. So focus on the exercise that matter. They're the ones that make the most difference. The other exercises, they just, it doesn't mean that they don't matter. They just don't matter nearly as much. So when it comes to building your body, strengthening your body, speeding up your metabolism, sculpting your body, look at those lifts, look at those. If those lifts are going up, you're moving in the right direction. If you have all these little tiny exercises that go up, but those big lifts aren't going up, you're probably wasting your Time, you're probably, I mean, what.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you say to somebody who's going like, yeah, well, I do that. I do both. Why can't I do both? What's wrong with doing both those? I mean, what, that's. Because I think that's what happens for someone who really wants to move the needle in, in a, in a muscle group that ends up doing a bunch of junk volume. Although I do, I do believe there is a percentage that just do, like inferior exercises that just don't belong and they should, and they're missing out on these big ones. But let's say you are doing those and then you also are doing all this other junk volume. What is the biggest problem with that?

[Adam Schaefer]

So, so let's say we had a comparison, right? And you did. And on one one hand you did. You were focused on the overhead press for your shoulders and you increase your overhead press by £40. And over here you still did overhead press, but you threw in a lot of different exercises. They're not as nearly as valuable. As a result, your overhead press went up five pounds. Okay, which one's going to make better looking shoulders? The one on the left. Now, what am I conveying here? Well, all those extra exercises and sets are really compromising your body, your body's ability to adapt. I'm just taking away from my body's ability to adapt to the exercise that matters the most. And by the way, here's where it gets really complicated and challenging. You might still see yourself progressing on those exercises that matter. You just don't know how much you could have progressed. So you might be listening, going, well, I do all those other extras, but I added 10 pounds to my deadlift.

[Justin Andrews]

Could have been 15, it could have.

[Adam Schaefer]

Been 50, could have been 30. You just, you have no idea because you're still playing that game of which really is the next point, which is don't ever compromise recovery unless it makes a lot of sense. It has to make a tremendous amount of sense for you to compromise recovery. Otherwise, that's the most important thing that you need to focus on is, is this the appropriate volume? If it feels like it, you're like, you know, I want to add this exercise. You better have a damn good reason why you should add that exercise. If your reason is just to do more, forget it, don't do it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think people just don't compare. Like, they're not gonna think right away to just eliminate some of these other exercises. It seems like you need to do that for a well rounded muscle or you need to like add this in is like, well, the muscle also produces this type of function. And so I need to make sure I get it from this angle or it went. In fact, if you do take the time to kind of remove those and then see how the recovery, if he can improve that, and then also you get stronger and then watch your muscle develop and it. Its completion, like it's, it's a totally different thing. But I think going through that process, people just don't really think in that.

[Adam Schaefer]

Direction, you know, where it makes sense to compromise recovery.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Correctional exercise.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, okay.

[Adam Schaefer]

You know, like, so I thought maybe.

[Justin Andrews]

You were going to go the angle like a, like an athlete that is trying to train for something that, where like mental toughness is, is takes a higher priority, you know, when it comes to that.

[Adam Schaefer]

I think the best way to train an athlete for mental toughness is to practice their sport and get real tired doing it because it's the most applicable when it comes to strength trains that get stronger. So the example I'll give. Let's say you're doing an overhead press. Okay. We'll stick with that one. And that one matters a lot for your delts. Just matters a lot. And you're starting to notice stability issues. You're starting to get pain in your rotator cuff, you know, impinging. Yeah. Maybe some impingements going on. Well, now it makes sense to add exercises to bolster your overhead press, exercises that support the exercises that matter so you can continue to get better at them, not just add a bunch of new exercises because, you know, for the sake of it, you know, type of deal.

[Unknown]

I think. Yeah. Even going through this series, for me, it's, it's figuring out too what might be taking me a little bit out of like the, the traction of it. So like two of like, you know, if I feel like it's pulling me too much anteriorly or, you know, how can I counterbalance that and, and just to add enough so it just keeps a nice ball and socket where it's like, it's right there in the pocket. So I'm not like putting too much emphasis in one direction, you know, It's.

[Adam Schaefer]

A great example, Justin. And by the way, this is very insidious, you guys. So this whole, like doing more volume that is necessary is very insidious to the point where we know this. We've been coaching this for, for two decades and we have to constantly check ourselves. That's our tendency, dude. Totally. You're, you're, you're. At the moment, you're Doing this, this. This series. So Justin's doing this, this video series where he's trying to hit a 315 pound overhead push press, which is a version of overhead press. It's an exercise that matters. And you were saying earlier, we were talking earlier off air on how you realized you were doing too much junk volume and you cut it way back.

[Unknown]

That's why this episode totally resonates with me. I'm like, it surprises, I guess, when you really go back and assess if it's really working instead of just trying to push through and get beyond. And I felt like I was trying to play catch up, and I feel like a lot of people do that.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it's.

[Unknown]

Especially if you've been out for a while or like, you haven't really been ramping it up and, like, bringing the intensity or tried to. Trying to move the needle and push yourself a little further, you kind of get in this trap of just like, well, I got to keep kind of adding and building that back up to where I was when in fact, you know, I would have got, you know, much more progression if I would have listened to my body and then actually like, just complemented what I was doing with the main lift more than anything.

[Adam Schaefer]

What happened? So how much less volume would you say you. You did recently? Because you just said you went up a lot in strength because you cut things. How big of a difference would you say? Big?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Like 30.

[Adam Schaefer]

Less 30.

[Unknown]

30. I would say, yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. Yeah.

[Unknown]

30% less volume.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's huge. And your strength went through the roof.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. It's a common problem.

[Justin Andrews]

What. What is it about us that we. We tend to.

[Adam Schaefer]

We're.

[Justin Andrews]

We're more likely to overreach because we're always trying to flirt with that line of, like, doing as much as I can to get the most, but not quite teeter over there when it would. It would serve us so much more to like, well, what's it look like if I were to do maybe just a little too little. Like, I could have done way more. Like, you never flirt with that line. No, think about that. Like, you never go in and be like, you know what? Hey, today I'll just do one set. I know I might be able to handle two or three, but I'm gonna flirt with the lower end. And maybe I go a little like, you don't ever do that.

[Adam Schaefer]

No.

[Justin Andrews]

Who does that? Who approaches the gym? I'm trying to be that way every time I get back and do, like, the kick. Like, if I've fallen Off a little bit and I'm going back.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, okay.

[Unknown]

It would serve you better. It's just ego wise.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It's hard to wrap your head.

[Justin Andrews]

It really is. It's like. I know and I know too. I'm like, okay, I haven't done this in a while. A one or two sets, I should probably be okay. I'll still end up doing two sets a little harder than I probably should have when it's like I probably actually could have done one really light and been totally fine.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah. You know, if you were to take. To kind of illustrate what you're saying. Let's say I'm gonna use a number scale just to illustrate this. Let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, a 5 is the perfect dose. Okay. So 5 in terms of volume, exercise intensity, the whole thing. A five means I'm maximizing everything. This is the best dose to give me the best results.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're better off doing a 3 than you are doing a 7.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. But yet we'll almost always go 9.

[Adam Schaefer]

A 7 will result in worse, way worse results than the 3 word would if the 5 was perfect.

[Justin Andrews]

That's exactly what I'm trying to communicate right now. Isn't that weird that like. And we. And you know that. We all know that. Yet we're all very guilty of that.

[Adam Schaefer]

A big part of the problem is we're constantly communicated to with the benefits of activity. That's so we gotta, we gotta make sure we communicate this properly. We're talking about strength training whose primary goal is to build muscle and build strength. We're not saying don't be active. You should be active every day.

[Unknown]

That's part of the recovery process too.

[Adam Schaefer]

You should be active every day.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a really good point, Sal, because there is a part of me and I know that I wrestle with this is I'm going in, going like, God, I haven't done shit today.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

I've been sitting all day long and really I probably only need about a 10 minute workout. 10 minutes, couple exercises and that would is probably go for a walk, is going to hit the 3 to 5 range for sure. But because I inside I'm guilty because I haven't done any activity. I'm like, oh, I need to do a little more. So I do it and it's like so silly.

[Adam Schaefer]

We're not talking about all exercise, everybody. So if you look at like, if you look at exercise like a Swiss army knife, the blade of strength training is muscle and strength but there's, like, blades that are stamina, endurance. There's a blade for just being active. When you look at the studies on being active, yeah, you got to be active. You should be active all day long. You should walk throughout the day. Being active as long as it's appropriate is good for you. We're talking specifically about strength training. Strength training. There's a perfect dose. More than that. It's just going to give you worse results. So what we're not saying is do the least amount of work to elicit the most amount of change and then don't do anything else.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

You still need to be active throughout the day. We're talking specifically about strength training. And then the other part of it is, I think we and I used to get this with clients all the time. When you get really great results for doing the right dose, it almost feels like you're cheating.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

And so I would get clients who are like, I don't understand what's happening. This is literally what would happen.

[Unknown]

This is antsy because you're like, well, I'm so. I feel so good. I want to do more.

[Adam Schaefer]

This is a word for word. Okay. This is word for word what I would hear from many clients often. This is really weird. It would always start with that. This is really weird. I don't understand how I'm building muscle and getting leaner. I'm barely doing anything, and they'd look at me like, should we do more? Like, no.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean, use yourself as an example. Right now, you have reduced your volume dramatically.

[Adam Schaefer]

Not 30%, like 80%.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. Dramatically. Okay. And you're getting. And down to two times a week, you're lifting, and you're seeing strength gains go up right now, which tells me. And tells you that you were probably around seven or eight, and you just got closer to five. You're still nowhere near three. Think about that. Like, three is maybe half of that now. It's like, wild that even us reducing, we probably just get closer to that medium range of or close to five as we can. It's like, we tend to never really push that. I'm just gonna go three.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's right. That's right. So don't compromise recovery. In other words, there are strength training exercises applied properly with proper intensity. Always requires recovery. So don't compromise that unless it makes a ton of sense. If it's not an F, yes, it's an F, no. Okay. As applied. Now, here's the next point. The pump. Here's another reason why people like that. You Mentioned this earlier, the junk volume, all these different exercises, it gives you this great tight pump. Yeah, the pump really doesn't matter. Everybody now. Now here's when the pump matters or why the pump matters. It's not the pump itself that matters. It's the fact that you're probably well hydrated, well rested, you feel good, you get those crazy pumps. Then you see progress. It wasn't the pump. It was all the other stuff that led to it. So junk volume tends to. Because I would take female clients, this would happen more often with female clients. They'd hire me. I want to build whatever legs and butt, okay? And we would do like sets of three reps. I'd have them power lift, because they never did that before. They're not getting a pump with that. And they'd be like, man, I used to think of crazy pumps with my. With my high volume. All these whatever exercises, like, it doesn't matter. Just watch what happens. And their muscles would develop like crazy. And they're like, I don't get it. I'm not getting a pump. The pump doesn't really matter. And it doesn't matter nearly as much as people think. It's oftentimes the fact that you're well rested, well fed, well hydrated, that causes the good pump. That is, that's why you're getting the results, not necessarily the fact that you're getting pumped from the exercise themselves. So don't chase the pump. And in fact, if your. If your choices were pump versus strength, which one is more likely to contribute to. Gains strength all day long.

[Justin Andrews]

All day.

[Adam Schaefer]

All day long.

[Justin Andrews]

I think it's because it's a physiological thing, right, that you write it, feel it, and you see it, right? So, man, heaven forbid, you're an insecure young boy who wants to build muscle. I mean, that's like. It feeds right into that. It's like, yes, because I remember if I could just look like this, you know, so you're chasing that look that you're getting temporarily. And it must be good because it looks better than what I looked at an hour ago. And so it's. It's a trap. It's a bit of a trap.

[Adam Schaefer]

Total. Now, you also have this, right? You have total volume that you accumulate for your body with strength training. Total volume, meaning every exercise I do is it counts towards total volume. So calf exercises, quad exercise, hamstring, like, shoulder, all of that goes in my total volume. And then there's specific volume, meaning volume applied to a specific area. So, like, here's the Volume to my chest, here's the volume. To my back, here's the volume. Now, all of it matters, but total volume actually matters most. What do I mean by that? Let's say I do. Let's say my goal is to build my. My glutes. My goal is I really want to build my glutes, and I do minimal volume for my glutes. But. But I'm doing the right amount of total volume for my body versus I'm doing the best amount of volume for my glutes, but I'm doing too much volume for my whole body. Which one gives me better results? The one where the total volume was appropriate and I'm doing a little volume for my glutes. What do I mean by that? Oftentimes, what we tend to do when we're training a particular area that we want to develop is we don't consider total volume. We do our normal workout, and then we slap on extra volume for the body part that we want to develop, and we exceed our body's ability to recover and adapt to the total volume. So now we get nothing. We get no progress anywhere because our total volume exceeds what we can recover from. So you got to pay attention to that total volume. And then this is also a moving goalpost. Like Adam said, if I'm not getting good sleep, my diet's off. If I'm under a lot of stress, if I'm in a calorie deficit, maybe I'm dieting to get cut or something like that, my total volume, my ability to recover and adapt to total volume goes down. My total has to drop. If I cut, my calories, rate decreases, I got to cut. If I'm doing hardcore cycling on the weekend, if I'm playing another sport, if I'm playing pickleball three days a week. But I'm also strength training, my total volume for strength training got to go down.

[Justin Andrews]

If I just lost my job, if I have a divorce going on, if I got a fight going on, I mean, all these things. Cause I mean, you only so much can fit in that stress bucket. And you have to understand that exercise is a stress. And then if you're piling on a bunch of other stuff, then it's very. It's. I mean, this was the point I made when we first started. Just like, it's a. This is the part that makes it challenging, because even when you kind of think you figured out, like, oh, this is the appropriate dose for me, or this is appropriate amount of volume for me to move the needle, that it actually does move and change, because maybe you figured it out when you're. You're optimizing your life. Life is good. Marriage is great, work is great, sleep is good, and you got the right balance of exercise. And then it's like, okay, now what happens when those things are out of whack? What happens when stress is high, work is rough, relationships are rough, whatever. Okay, that now changes, you know, and it needs to be reduced is what it needs to be and changes. Oh, go harder or push past how you feel most people do.

[Adam Schaefer]

Here's what it looks like. Practically, you have. Let's say you typically do total of 15 sets on your workout on Wednesday, but that night, you just had bad sleep, and you know it. You wake up, man, I had really bad sleep last night. Well, you go do seven sets. You adjust right then and there. Don't wait until you plateau real hard. Literally adjust your volume because of what just happened. You'll get such better results by being intelligent that way. Now it's tough because, again, we want to do what we're capable of, not what we're. What's ideal. But when it comes to strength training, this is very specific. Build muscle, get strong, or not do as much as I possibly can.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it's also tough, too, because back to the physiological thing is that just like chasing the pump is you get this cortisol dump. You put. You're tired, you're exhausted, you feel stressed. Oh, I don't really want to work out. I want to make myself work out. And you push really hard through that, and you get that dump, and it's.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like, oh, stress hormone.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, it feels so good. That was the right. And then you tell yourself that was the right thing to do. And I think it's just this trap that people get stuck in.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's right. Now, here's another challenge that we're gonna. We're gonna hit here is that, you know, fitness fanatics, they like to spend time in the gym. This was me, like, one of the biggest challenges with cutting the amount of time that I'm working out is that I just love working out. I mean, that's just a fact. I just love it. So it's almost like, you know, if I can get away with doing more and get the same results, I might actually choose more because I like spending time in the gym. Well, here's what you do then. If you love going to the gym, you love spending time in your gym, spend that extra time on mobility. You'll get way better returns. Mobility doesn't compromise recovery. In fact, mobility done properly helps facilitate recovery. It'll improve your range of motion. It'll improve your control and connection. It'll make the rest of your strength training much more effective. So if you're going to go to the gym and you want to go to the gym and you want to spend time, because you're listening to this, you're like, okay, well, great. You know, I work out four days a week. I'm going to cut it down to two, but I still want to go to the gym. Spend that extra time on mobility. It'll give you better results. It's not time wasted.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, just to take that extra time to really, like, reinforce your joints to get blood flow. Like you said, facilitate recovery.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's.

[Unknown]

It's fantastic for that.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's.

[Unknown]

It too. It's being able to address, like, movement that you probably don't get on a daily basis. And that's. That's one of the biggest pieces for me because you. You kind of. You start planning out to. To train your body for the unknown and for, you know, the possibility of things that you may occur at some point, um, your body's gonna be able to react to that, and it doesn't take a lot from you. It's. It's something that gives back tremendously. So, yeah, you could. You could be pretty busy doing a lot of different mobility moves that will definitely move you forward, not backwards.

[Justin Andrews]

This has been your big hack, hasn't it? Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

So I like. I like static stretching on. On my off days, primarily because for me, static stretching helps recovery, and it helps get my cns to calm down, and it feels good on my joints. And I just. But I also like traditional mobility with the stick, you know, like, you know, I'll do my windmills. I'll do the world's greatest stretch. It's basically moving through full ranges of motion. Challenging. But I'm not like. I mean, I'm moving, so it's activity, but it's not a workout. And. But what I notice is it contributes. And not just. I mean, I've noticed with my clients for years, it contributes to their progress. Doesn't take away, and it definitely doesn't compromise recovery. It's actually better than not doing anything.

[Justin Andrews]

No. And if you. If you don't use it, you lose it. To Justin's point, you're doing these movements that. I mean, the world's greatest stretch is like. It's like a lizard with rotation. Like, how often do you rotate your t Spine like that and open up your chest. You rarely ever, if ever. And so you're continuing to practice something that you don't want to have to lose. And I mean, we're not kids anymore, rolling around and playing all day long and moving in all these dynamic movements. We sit in these fixed positions all day. And so the plus side of that is if you practice these movements, you won't lose that skill. That's only going to help you build more muscle, build a better body by, by facilitating recovery, by helping you through movement. Just a way better way to approach all the extra time that's inside the gym.

[Sal Destefano]

We've got some questions here. The first one is what are some of the biggest junk volume exercises?

[Adam Schaefer]

You know, I think anytime someone uses a machine and uses a machine in a way that's not meant to be used, that's almost always a waste of time. Almost always a complete waste of time.

[Unknown]

Just getting cute.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, I'll give you some, you know, you know, abduction adduction machine, 99% of time are not used when they're valuable. There's some correctional exercise value there. But typically women are using them to add volume to their inner and outer thigh type of deal. There's way better ways to do it so they can be a waste of time. A lot of cable isolation exercises where I'm trying to isolate this one specific tiny part of a muscle that's large, you know, those are waste of time. Isolation exercises aren't always a waste of time, but generally junk volume exercises fall in the category of isolation.

[Justin Andrews]

I was gonna say what I'd say is they're not, they're not compound lifts. Right. They're not the, the bench never. Yeah, they're just not that. And if they are, the only time they are is because you're doing so much of it. Right. Because you are, you're doing too many sets of squats, which is not normally the case. Normally what the case is is people are filling up their time in the gym with a lot of the junk exercises, which tend to be isolations. And that's not saying that I. All isolation exercises are terrible or junk or don't work. It's just that if somebody is going to fill their time up with quote unquote, junk volume, it's not going to be a bunch of deadlifts and squatting. It's going to be the other stuff.

[Sal Destefano]

Next question, are machines typically junk volume.

[Adam Schaefer]

Machines, I would say fall in the category more often than not, especially in comparison to those basic free weight exercises. You know, going through a gym, you know, machines are fun. I like them, I love them. I love, you know, but a good chunk of machines you could get rid of. Look, I'll tell you what, right now, okay, this is 100% the most, the best results people will ever get, ever, is when they work with a really good coach or trainer. If you go in America to some of the best coach and trainers, gyms, these are coaches and trainers that train celebrity train people who demand a lot, right? Celebrities, athletes, like people who are, like, willing to pay top dollar to work with the best. You know, what they tend to have in their gyms, like a squat rack, a dumbbells, adjustable bench, maybe a machine or two. And that's it. And that's it. I had a studio for 15 years and I had a cable machine and a squat rack, dumbbells, adjustable bench. That's all I did to train all my clients. And I was trying, you know, top dollar. And we had incredible. And I worked out that way for myself for most of the time. I still do.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I mean, I want to be careful on how we talk about this because I don't want it to come off like isolation exercises are bad and machines are all bad. It's like there's a ton of value in those things. But if we were building a specific avatar of a person, right, that we're trying to communicate this message to, who is trying to ask themselves, do I do too much junk volume? I think I might be that person. You're most likely going to get it through doing machines and isolation types of exercises. It doesn't mean those are all bad exercises or I don't use machines or I don't use isolation exercises. It's just that more than likely, if you are concerned that you may be doing too much junk volume, that's where you're going to find it. And so just make sure that the audience understands that this is like, oh, throw out all machines. Throw out all isolation exercises. They have a place for sure. But if you are wasting a lot of time in the gym, you're more likely. You're more likely doing it on machines or isolation exercises.

[Sal Destefano]

Why do we see so many fitness influencers doing junk volume?

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, there's two reasons. One is a typical fitness influencer is an idiot. I mean, that's just true. Okay? I hate to say it.

[Unknown]

They don't know any better.

[Adam Schaefer]

And number two, a fitness influencer is an entertainer. Okay? The best trainers and coaches in the world don't have tons and tons of followers on social media. Because that's not their, that's not their business. Their business is training clients. The fitness influencer's business is to get eyes and their media. And so a lot of these weird junk, volume type exercises, they make for better content.

[Unknown]

It's just for the novelty of it because people, if you just show like a proper squat, like they've seen it.

[Adam Schaefer]

A million times, they got to post every day. What are you going to post a squat every day?

[Unknown]

Yeah. You know, uninteresting to the viewer.

[Adam Schaefer]

They're going to show a bunch of entertainment. And so that, and so what it does is it presents the, that those are more valuable than they actually are when they're not.

[Justin Andrews]

Novelty. I mean we, we talk, we've talked a long time about doing this, being guilty of this in our early 20s. Yep. Thinking that I needed to wow my clients with something they'd never seen before. Forget teaching them good programming, getting them to practice a squat over the next 30 sessions with me. No, they've seen a squat before. I need to show them something they've never seen before. I need to teach them this new creative exercise or do a movement they've never seen before to show my value. And that's a lot of that is just insecurity around your, your knowledge in the field. Just. I didn't at that time in my life, I didn't know enough to stay out of my own way. I thought this was the way to teach my clients. This is the way to add value versus being able to articulate the reason why we do these boring four exercises all the time is the best thing for you. And then learning how to explain that. This is what you see on social media. You see a lot of young trainers who just don't have a lot of experience and understand or haven't made it past this point to realize, oh, I'm not really helping my clients that much by teaching these silly exercises.

[Sal Destefano]

Why do pro bodybuilders do junk volume.

[Adam Schaefer]

Pro bodybuilders, They're checking all the boxes already. Yeah. And they're also like, this is a whole.

[Unknown]

They live in the gym.

[Adam Schaefer]

This is a different animal completely. They have muscle building genetics that don't. You're not even the same universe. Okay. Like I remember we had Phil Heath on the show. He was a seven time Mr. Olympia when he was playing basketball and not lifting weights. He was more muscular than I would ever accomplish on my own. Lifting weights forever. Right. So he did crazy muscle building genetics. They build the bulk of their size and mass doing the exercises that matter the most, you could talk to any of them and they can do almost anything at their bodies. It'll build a little bit more muscle. So it just, I wouldn't do what they do and expect the same results at all. So that's a big reason for it. And the other thing is pro bodybuilders, when they post videos and stuff, if it's not them posing and flexing again, it's doing some of these exercises that seem to be getting views more entertaining. But still the bulk of the, of their, of their work is in the exercises that matter.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, this is a bit loaded question because there's a lot going on here. One, you have potentially crazy genetics that you talk about. You didn't even hint to or allude to anabolic steroids and what they do for recovery and building muscle. So they have that going from they're also lifting weights is their livelihood or what they do for a living. And so you have the ability.

[Adam Schaefer]

So their stress bucket is just that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, is that right? So their priority, prioritizing. I mean some of us would, I remember taking naps in the middle of the day, like you were prioritizing sleep that much. You go get a good lift in, go lay down, take a nap like you would do stuff like that. Your meals are all planned out, you're well fed. There's so many variables and, and boxes that they're checking that if there's anybody who can get away with some junk volume or some exercises that are a waste of time, well, those are probably the guys who can get away with it for all those reasons that they're doing all the good ones too. They've got muscle building genics. They're probably on anabolic steroids. They're probably taking way more naps and sleep than you are. They're probably never missing a meal like you probably do. And so they of all the people can probably get away with a lot of that. And then like what I noticed with my peers when I was competing is, I mean I remember training side by side with all these guys and just because they do it and they look amazing on stage doesn't mean they could have looked better and could have done better also. So there's a lot of that going on where it's like, okay, maybe to you, you think, oh my God, they look amazing. And I want to look like that, I'll tell you that. Listen, I train right by him and I think, man, he could have done half that and he would have looked.

[Adam Schaefer]

Just as good as Good example of that, by the way. If you want to talk about pro bodybuilders, Dorian Yates, I don't remember what year it was. 93 maybe. Maybe Doug, you can look up when he took second in the Olympia to, I think it was Lee Haney. He compete now. Now he's honest. So Dorian Yates, you hear him on podcast now, he won the Olympia, I want to say, six times. And he's very honest about his drug use and all that stuff. He got second place in the Olympia and then dramatically cut the amount of volume he did in his training and just completely transformed his body, walked on stage and he brought in a new era. They call that the era of mass monsters. It was Dorian Yates that really triggered that. And if he's honest, he'll tell you like, nothing changed with my. Was that okay, 91. Then it was 92 where he came in. Nothing changed except for the fact that he dramatically reduced his volume. In fact, there's a very famous picture, a black and white picture showing the difference in his body from doing less. So yeah, there you have it right there. Yep. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. You can find justinindpumpjustin me at mind pump, distefano and adam@mindpump.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGBC Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, performance and Maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.