2626: Five Weird & Cool Gym Facts

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mind Pump Episode 2626 – Five Weird & Cool Gym Facts

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Overview

In Episode 2626 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth, hosts Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews delve into intriguing and lesser-known facts about gyms. The episode, released on June 25, 2025, spans approximately 85 minutes of engaging discussion, including live caller segments where the hosts provide personalized coaching advice. Produced by Doug Egge, this episode maintains the show's commitment to debunking fitness myths and offering science-backed insights.

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Fact 1: Hardcore Gyms Foster the Best Culture

Sal Di Stefano opens the discussion by asserting that the most hardcore gyms—often perceived as intimidating "iron dungeons"—actually cultivate the best gym culture, especially for beginners and everyday gym-goers.

Sal Di Stefano [03:00]: "The most hardcore gyms, the ones that are the most hardcore, iron dungeons, they have the best culture."

Justin Andrews shares his initial skepticism but concurs with Sal's observation, noting that hardcore gyms are not flashy and lack excessive amenities, which contributes to their authentic and supportive environment.

Justin Andrews [03:20]: "If you want the best gym culture, you go to those scary, scary gyms. It's true."

The hosts emphasize that despite their intimidating appearance, these gyms are welcoming and respectful, fostering a sense of community and mutual support among members.

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Fact 2: Shredded Members Often Struggle with Body Dysmorphia

The conversation shifts to a surprising insight: the most jacked and ripped members of the gym often grapple with body dysmorphia and insecurities related to their physiques.

Sal Di Stefano [09:18]: "The most ripped members of the gym probably have the hardest struggles with body dysmorphia."

Justin Andrews highlights that despite their muscular appearance, these individuals may be driven by insecurities that propel them to extreme training regimens.

Justin Andrews [10:07]: "It’s not that they don’t feel insecure about how they look. That’s what drove them to those extremes."

This revelation serves to humanize highly fit individuals, making it clear that appearance does not necessarily equate to confidence or mental well-being.

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Fact 3: Old Timers Provide the Best Advice

Sal introduces the idea that seasoned gym-goers—those in their 40s, 50s, and beyond—often dispense the most valuable fitness advice, albeit it may seem too basic at first glance.

Sal Di Stefano [12:33]: "The best advice oftentimes comes from the old timers."

Justin and Sal agree, emphasizing that longevity in the gym often correlates with effective and sustainable training practices. They share personal anecdotes illustrating how early advice from experienced members significantly impacted their fitness journeys.

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Fact 4: Opening a Gym is a Challenging Business Model

The hosts candidly discuss the difficulties associated with opening and maintaining a gym. They compare it to running a bar—perceived as fun and profitable but fraught with operational challenges.

Sal Di Stefano [15:52]: "If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump."

Justin underscores that compared to mega gyms like Planet Fitness or 24 Hour Fitness, independent gym owners struggle with profitability and high operational costs.

Justin Andrews [19:17]: "Unless you go the high-end, high-touch model, it's very hard to be profitable."

Sal adds that gyms require extensive hours and significant financial investment to remain viable, advising aspiring gym owners to consider their motivations carefully.

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Fact 5: Gym as an Ideal First Date for Fitness Enthusiasts

Sal presents an unconventional yet popular idea: using the gym as a first date venue, particularly for those passionate about fitness.

Sal Di Stefano [20:38]: "I think it's a great first date for fitness people."

While some hosts express reservations about the practicality and personal comfort of such dates, Sal cites studies indicating that many women find gym dates appealing due to the shared interest in health and fitness.

Sal Di Stefano [24:09]: "Women were saying it was a great first date because it's safe and you can have fun while having a conversation."

Despite mixed feelings from some hosts, the consensus is that when approached correctly, the gym can foster meaningful connections based on mutual interests in fitness.

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Animal Fact: Capybaras and Their Unique Behavior

Injecting a dose of light-hearted trivia, the hosts discuss capybaras, the world's largest rodents, focusing on their unusual relationships with other animals.

Sal Di Stefano [43:56]: "Capybaras have a symbiotic relationship with many predators like crocodiles, which is quite fascinating."

The discussion highlights how capybaras coexist peacefully with various species, showcasing the diversity of animal behaviors and ecosystems.

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Speaker Spotlight: Sal Di Stefano's Speaking Engagement and Peptide Conference

Sal shares his recent experience speaking at a large fitness and peptide conference in Las Vegas, highlighting the positive reception from both seasoned professionals and newcomers in the medical and fitness communities.

Justin Andrews [30:07]: "He spoke intelligently and at a high level, making it accessible to everyone."

The event featured success stories, such as a 76-year-old pathologist who significantly improved her strength and health through dedicated training, illustrating the transformative power of fitness and nutrition programs advocated by Mind Pump.

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Callers' Questions: Weight Loss and TRT

The episode features live callers seeking personalized advice:

1. Sam from the UK ([57:22]):

   • Issue: Overtraining and under-eating while trying to lose weight and gain fitness.
   • Advice: Hosts recommend tracking caloric and protein intake, aiming for at least 150 grams of protein daily. They suggest integrating protein-rich snacks like Greek yogurt and adjusting training programs to prevent overtraining.

2. John from Tennessee ([72:15]):

   • Issue: Concerns about Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) leading to injuries and questions about supplements.
   • Advice:
     • Sal: Clarifies that TRT within normal range does not increase prostate cancer risk and emphasizes listening to the body while being cautious of overtraining.
     • Justin: Warns that TRT can mask natural signs of overtraining, potentially leading to injuries. Recommends balancing workout intensity and being mindful of body limits.

3. Nicole from Florida ([86:37]):

   • Issue: Struggling with consistency in workouts and diet, especially after coming off Lexapro; dealing with yo-yo dieting and injuries.
   • Advice:
     • Sal: Suggests adopting a self-care mindset towards fitness and diet, avoiding punitive approaches. Recommends consistent protein intake and balancing workout volume.
     • Justin: Emphasizes building a positive relationship with exercise and nutrition, focusing on overall well-being rather than just weight or appearance metrics.

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Episode 2626 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth offers a blend of insightful facts about gym culture, practical advice for overcoming fitness dilemmas, and an exploration of the nuanced relationships individuals have with fitness and nutrition. The hosts underscore the importance of balanced training, adequate nutrition, and fostering a healthy mindset towards exercise and diet. Through engaging discussions and personalized coaching, listeners gain valuable strategies to enhance their fitness journeys sustainably and healthily.

Notable Quotes:

• Sal Di Stefano [03:00]: "The most hardcore gyms... have the best culture."
• Justin Andrews [09:18]: "The most ripped members of the gym probably have the hardest struggles with body dysmorphia."
• Sal Di Stefano [78:23]: "TRT brings your testosterone up to what would be considered a high normal."
• Justin Andrews [96:55]: "The goal is to do as little as possible to elicit the most change."

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Connect with the Hosts

Follow Mind Pump on Instagram @mindpumpmedia, @mindpumpsal, @mindpumpadam, @mindpumpjustin, and @mindpumpdoug. For training protocols, visit mapsfitnessproducts.com.

Transcript

[Sal Di Stefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Mind Pump Mind Pump with your hosts.

[Adam Schafer]

Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You just found those downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump and today's episode we had live callers call in. We got to coach them on air, but this was after the intro. Today's intro was 54 minutes long. Now in the intro we talk about fitness facts, fat loss, muscle gain. We talk about current events, family life. Great conversations. By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this where you call in and we can coach you, email us your [e-mail] now we have some sponsors that brought you this episode. The first one is Caldera Lab. They make skincare products that are all natural and have been shown in studies to improve the appearance and firmness and youthfulness of skin 90 plus percent of the time. Go check them out. Go to caldera lab.com mindpump use the code mindpump20. Get 20% off. This episode is also brought to you by Eight Sleep, the most advanced sleep system anywhere. You put this on your bed. AI technology controls the temperature to ensure you the best sleep of your life. Go check them out. Go to eightsleep.com mindpump Use the code mindpump. Get a massive $350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. We also have some sales on some workout programs this month. The Shredded Summer bundle of programs and the Bikini bundle of programs. 50% off. If you're interested, go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and then use the code JUNE50 for the discount. Here comes the show.

[Justin Andrews]

T Shirt time.

[Adam Schafer]

And it's T shirt time.

[Justin Andrews]

Ah shit. Doug, you my favorite time of the week.

[Adam Schafer]

Only one winner this week and that's for Apple Podcasts. It's Kansashiker69. Send the name I just read if that is you to iTunesdpumpmedia.com include your shirt size and your Shipping address and we'll get that shirt right out to you. And for the rest of you, if you want a good chance to win, leave a review.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Gyms are awesome places. We're going to talk about five weird and cool gym facts that you should learn. Let's get into it. Yeah, I'll start with the first one. This one right here. Most people don't know this, but this is a very true fact. This is one of the truest facts of gyms and that is that the most hardcore gyms, the ones that are the most hardcore, iron dungeons, they have the best culture. And I'm talking about for beginners, I'm talking about for everyday people. If you want the best gym culture, you go to those scary, scary gyms. It's true.

[Justin Andrews]

You love it. I think you love talking about this. I do, but it's, it is very true. The, I mean, and I'm guilty too of actually assuming the opposite. Even being in the fitness space. I think I remember first time going to like some of these like hardcore, like power. I consider those like a powerlifting gym.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

If I had to categorize that those, I would say it's like a powerlifting gym.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Well, even there's even hardcore bodybuilding ones, there's hardcore weightlifting ones. But you know, you know them because they're not flashy, they're not, not trying to get, you know, they're not advertising like crazy like you walk in.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

They don't feel the intensity.

[Justin Andrews]

Well. They don't sell you on all the amenities. Right. It's not like known for its warm towel when you walk in or like the super cool bathrooms or whatever. Like that. And okay, so I, okay, so you're, you're even categories like the bodybuilding side too. Okay, Yeah, I like that. That's, that's fair. It is true though. They feel probably, I mean, as a beginner, they're probably the most intimidating.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Because it's the opposite of like. And I guess that's why it's a great point or tip is they feel the opposite of Planet Fitness.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

They do not feel like Planet Fitness.

[Sal Di Stefano]

No. What's funny is that the least most gyms have a decent culture. Gyms have just in general typically a good culture because, well, people are there to try to better themselves. But the ones with the worst culture, if you had to categorize them, are the cheapest ones. It's the mega gyms, the cheapest ones that advertise having the best culture judgment free zone. That's a Judgment zone. If there is going to be one in the gym, it's that gym.

[Doug Egge]

The most judgment.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes. Hardcore gyms are the most welcoming period. End of story. If you're a beginner, if you're an obese individual who's never worked out. So you walk into an iron dungeon with chalk and you walk in, there's monsters in there working out and it's your first time and you go in there and you're trying to work out and you need help or whatever, you are going to become part of a club.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

They're going to welcome you in like you're part of the family. They're incred. It's incredibly encouraging. They're the most respectful of equipment in gym etiquette. Everybody re racks their weights, everybody takes care of the equipment. They keep everybody in check. If there is a jerk in there, don't worry, they're going to police that guy.

[Justin Andrews]

What do you think it is? Why do you think that is? Like why would a, why would a gym like that if you're comparing it to a planet fitness or a commercial, big commercial gym, like A24 Fitness. Why is the culture so much better? Is it just because the seriousness of the lifters there? Because they take so much pride, they.

[Doug Egge]

Really want to be there.

[Justin Andrews]

They take so much pride in the place in there. Like what is it?

[Sal Di Stefano]

I think you take masters of any space or field. So think of any space, right? Think of business. Think of like the most successful business people and they meet, you know, some 20 year old kids who are just new to business but they're like really trying. They're going to get, they're going to be very welcomed and respected. You go to a jiu jitsu school and it's full of masters of Jiu jitsu and you're first timer. They're gonna, they're gonna treat you the best because they're masters of the space. They don't have the same. It's not like you go to a gym.

[Justin Andrews]

Maybe what you're saying is there's less insecurities.

[Doug Egge]

Yes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, I don't know about that. I would say they're, they're, there's some insecurities still there, but they've been down that road, they've gone down that road, they've worked on themselves, they tried and they respect, they respect people for trying. You know, I mean, think about us, right?

[Justin Andrews]

Like I think that's what, when you, when you. I'm trying to connect it to these analogies that you're giving. I don't know about the business one, but I definitely get what you're saying with the jiu jitsu one, with the black belts. But I think that would be because they. They're just the confidence of. They know who they are and they.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Sure.

[Justin Andrews]

They're encouraged, you know what I'm saying? So they're very secure with who they are, which is. I could see that parallel, like, you know, you have these very secure power lifters or bodybuilders. They've been lifting forever, you know what I'm saying? So they have a lot of knowledge around the space, and so they feel more secure in who they are, what they're doing, and they. They're inspired maybe by a young person coming in. I don't know.

[Doug Egge]

It's interesting, though, because if you look at, like, even. And I know this isn't, like, the best comparison, but even, like, the, like, metal community, where it's very, like, hardcore music, like, it's like the most intense, crazy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

The nicest people you ever meet.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You know, if you're in that community. And I think that it's just, like, one of those barriers that, like, we like our thing. We know not a lot of people like it, but if you're willing to come in and step into our culture, we're fully going to embrace you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I. I mean, if you're like. By the way, this is, like, especially true for. For women. Like, if you're a newbie and you walk into really scary gyms and you're, like, trying and you're working out hard, like, you. You've just. You're gonna. You're gonna be adopted as a little sister to a lot of these monsters in that gym, and they're gonna be protective. They're gonna help you. I know who started in gym like this, and they tell me. I've worked on gyms, and, like you, Adam, the first times that I went into some of these gyms as a kid, it's intimidating because, well, it looks intimidating. There's, you know, there's beasts in there lifting weight that you're like. I can't even imagine how strong these people are. And they're veiny and they're whatever and they're intense. And I went into a couple of these gyms super intimidated, but also, like, I want to learn from these people. And I worked out and I got so much encouragement because I was a young kid trying hard. I didn't get that at many other gyms that I worked out at, but when I would go into those Gyms. And I remember driving far to try to find. I found a world gym once that I'm like, I'm gonna go work out there. And I saw just. I'd never seen people like that before in, you know, in real life. And I was just working out hard and I got fist bumps and pats on the back and advice. And I was like, oh, my God, this culture is just so incredible. And culture is super important for consistency. So this one right here, I love talking about it, especially to people who are intimidated, you know, just going to the free weight area or whatever. Like, the people who are most intimidating looking because they've been doing it for so long, are oftentimes the most welcoming, encouraging. Next up, the most jacked and ripped members of the gym probably have the hardest struggles with body dysmorphia and insecurities related to those. So you may think that the person who's super shredded doesn't feel insecure about how they look. But the truth is, oftentimes that's what drove them to those extremes. And so this, I think, will help somebody who's a beginner as well walk in and realize that you have more in common with the person that looks super shredded.

[Justin Andrews]

Right. Than you think, or that they're in a worse place, even though physically they might be in a better place.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, I mean, we worked, you know, we had a lot of trainers work for us.

[Justin Andrews]

Us.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And what are the odds that your most jacked trainer was the one that typically dealt with the worst insecurities about body dysmorphia?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Pretty high.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I think that's the reason why they don't typically make the best trainers, too.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, when you think back of some of your best. They were. My best trainer on the staff was never the. The most jacked, fit trainer.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's typically true.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. They didn't connect the most with my.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The clients or too preoccupied with them.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Or they're still in. They're still in the thick of it themselves. You know, they're still working through their own body dysmorphia and insecurity. So if you've got somebody who's hiring you to help you and you. And this is what you guys know as veterans is like, that's a big area that you have to overcome with a client. If they're going to be successful long term, you have to move them in the right direction with that. And if you're a trainer and coach and you're still in the thick of that or you're Maybe you don't even realize you are that person. It real hard to help. You know, Jane who comes in is.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Struggling unless you're vulnerable and open about it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, well, I mean, that would be a superpower for a trainer. Is that is being aware of it is probably the most powerful thing. And then being able to share that, hey, I still struggle with this. So, I mean, that would be.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I figured that out as a trainer.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I always tell the story about the girl who she recovering anorexic, and I was trying to figure out how to connect with her, and I'm like, hey, I struggle with body dysmorphia. And she looked at me like I was crazy. And then I talked to her, and then it was such a different experience. She was, you know, I trained her so much more effectively as, you know, backing up to the. To the gym culture. One, this is fun for fitness fanatics, by the way. If you're like a super fitness fanatic, try to. And I'm speaking to the fitness fanatics as they're the ones willing to do this. Look for these hardcore specialized gyms that are, you know, that you're driving distance like 40 minutes, maybe even an hour away because you'll get so much from working out just in that culture. So if you love working out, like a ton, this is super fun. Take your workout partners. Hey, let's find a couple powerlifting gyms. Let's find, you know, a couple iron dungeons. Let's find some of these places, and let's just go visit them and go on like a. Like a gym tour, you know, tourism, essentially. It's a lot of fun. Have you guys ever done that?

[Justin Andrews]

Not like that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I did that. Yeah, a couple times. Yeah. Yeah. Super fun. All right. Number three is the best advice oftentimes comes from the old timers. So the people who've been in there for a long time, you know, 40s, 50s, 60s, who've been working out consistent, and they're fit. Now, you might not take their advice because it might sound too basic. I wish I took their advice when I was younger, but oftentimes their advice is the most sound.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I would definitely agree if you said in general, life advice, because maybe I'll meet an old timer who doesn't have the best workout advice or nutrition advice. But in general, I think the thing that's most admirable is you're 60, 70 years old and you're still doing this. You figured something out.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

Right. So. So I think that that's important. To know. Because, like, especially your young science nerd kid who just came out of his degree or whatever is going to be like, oh, what he's saying is so not true. This is what the studies say. It's just like, listen, there's something about if this guy is still doing this at 70 years old, you may agree or disagree with his. The way he communicates it or what that. But he figured something out. And let's be honest, all of us are. That's. That's a goal. Is. Is like, hey, I want to be 70 still in here, moving weight and stuff like that and making this a part of my routine. And if you have figured out how to do that with life, right. Having probably a family and raising kids and work and. And you're still here, that says something right there.

[Doug Egge]

It's funny, over the weekend, I finally got to go to the Santa Cruz Athletic Club and.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, you went places.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, it was my first time. Is it finished?

[Justin Andrews]

Finished, Justin finished.

[Doug Egge]

Totally finished. Did a workout.

[Justin Andrews]

Me too.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, and it was great. I just was doing my thing. Great culture in there. And what really sold me was that this what you're bringing up. I was doing a farmer carry, and I was kind of in the zone doing my thing. And this guy comes up to me, he's like 78, and he just walked up to me and he just wanted to introduce himself. And he's just like, hey, I see new. And, you know, I'm like, oh, hey, like, his name is Sunny. And he was just, like, super friendly. But he was telling me he had, like, triple bypass surgery before he had all these, like, health problems. Like, every time the doctor was like, please, you know, relax and, you know, just take it easy and all this, he's like, this is my happy place. And I just found ways to keep coming in and doing light bits of strength training and just keep going. And I'm like, dude, that's amazing.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's all. I love it when. I love when I. I come, you know, I talk to people like that in the gym. It's like my favorite. Yeah. You know, I think back, I told the story before, but this is like, I could have. Man, I could have erased probably 10 years of frustration if I had just taken this guy's advice. I'm going to say his name because I would love it if he heard this. His name is Joe Mamon. He was a friend of the family. He was a chiropractor, but he was a bodybuilder. And when I was 16 and my cousin and I were into working out, and we'd always. Like, when he came around the house, my cousin and I were always super psyched because we were into lifting weights. And he's the closest we ever saw to a bodybuilder. And I took him aside one time, and I'm like, joe, like, what should I do? Like, I want to get big like you. He's like, all right, here's what you do. He goes, train your whole body two or three days a week. Eat a lot of protein, like chicken and tuna fish and eggs, and make sure you get good sleep. And I remember thinking how full of shit he was. I was like, my dad must have told him not to tell me, like.

[Justin Andrews]

What to do or whatever, what supplements he's on, bro.

[Sal Di Stefano]

He gave me the best advice. He gave me the best advice. Had I listened to him, man, I would have erased so many years of just total frustration. True. All right, here's another one. And this is just, you know, someone who's thinking about, like, I want to open a gym so I could make a lot of money. It's a terrible business model. That's a fact that a lot of people don't realize.

[Justin Andrews]

I always feel bad because, you know, we have. We Obviously, we have a lot of trainers that. And that listen to us, and I always feel bad when they ask my opinion on this or their.

[Doug Egge]

Their dream.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I don't think you'll stop them no matter what we say here.

[Justin Andrews]

I know, but. But it's such a hard. Like, I also. You know, me. I'm also going to be very direct and real with them. And so I don't. I don't want to sugarcoat that. Like, and I. I mean, that's your. That's what your mom is for, right? Your mom's there to tell you, good. Go for it, son. You can do it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not gonna tell you. Yeah. I'm gonna tell you. It's a horrible business. Here's the thing. Like, it's been compared to, like, opening up your own bar.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And obviously very different as far as what. What you're trying to attract and what you're selling.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But everybody thinks it's so fun.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Everything's so fun. Awesome. Super. Like, tons of money and margins in the. And it's just, like, they're really, really hard to be profitable and make a lot of money doing it. It's a lot of hard work. Now, if you love that culture and you like to, like, I've Always thought like I am. And I imagine owning a gym is in our future, but it's the way we'll do it. It will not be a necessity to our income. It's more like, I love the gym so I can, I can relate to that trainer that wants to do it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, I'll be here all day. I love it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, exactly. But it's like aspiring to do that because you think you're going to make a lot of money is probably not a good idea. It's just, it's this percentage that make really, really good revenue in it are is very, very small. But if you just, if you're at a place in your life or that's not important or you don't really care, then it could be very rewarding.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Hours are terrible. You're going to be there a lot because the two busiest times in your when you should be there are early morning till like 11 and then again from 4pm to like 9pm so you're, if you have a break, it's in the middle of the day. So you're there a lot. And really there's, there's really only, I mean there's really two models that will profit. One of them is Anti Fitness and this is the most common model which is get a ton of volume, tons and tons and tons of people paying very low membership fees and then hope that they don't show up.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Because if they did, you wouldn't have the space to accommodate them.

[Justin Andrews]

Right, right.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So that's Anti Fitness. The other option is super high End, which is a even more challenging model to become profitable. And the cost of opening one of those and maintaining them is. Yeah, it's insane. It's very competitive. It's just not something you do if you want to make a lot of money. Now if you love it, you're like, I don't care, I'll just live well.

[Justin Andrews]

And I understand that these, these big box gyms really made it difficult for the, you know, the solo entrepreneur to come build, build their little dream because everybody is comparing to what you get at, you know, Fitness 19 or at Planet Fitness or 24 Hour Fitness, and you get a lot of gym for next to nothing. And so unless you go the other extreme direction where you're like high end, high touch, high service type of place, which is also very hard to execute, then you're going to be compared to your pricing, to those gyms that offer all those amenities. And so if you're this little, you know, three, 4,000 square foot gym trying to build your, your dream, you know, where you, you can afford to have a bathroom with maybe two stalls in it and like some basic stuff and some basic equipment. But then you want to charge a hundred something dollars a month. They're going like, listen, I can go up the Road to Fitness 19 or Planet Fitness for $10 or $19.

[Sal Di Stefano]

More equipment.

[Justin Andrews]

More equipment. Nicer. More stuff. Like, I mean, it's just. And then they're going to compare that and like you're, it's to. And the only way I see you overcoming that is like, yeah, we're not like that. We're, we're way more personable. And then, but then you better back that up. You better have a lot of work. You better have a culture that makes people feel like cheers when they walk in. Because that's the only way you win that battle is that people go like, oh, yeah, well, I know I don't pay $9 or $10, but when I walk in, everybody knows my name and makes me feel like this is my gym too. Like, if you can build a culture like that. And then by the way, even if you can execute and do all that, it's still not a lot of money. No, you know, it's. Maybe you make it and it's, and it's rewarding.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And the cost too, to start them. I mean, I had a small studio, so that's lower cost. And we were, I was never, I was always in the black and I was in business for 15 years, but we weren't like swimming in money. And I worked a lot, A lot, a lot, a lot. Like I was there 60 plus hours a week. Then you talk about a big box. Like you need a million or $2 million just to get going.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Just to cover yourself. So, you know, good luck. All right. Last. I thought this would be a fun one. I think it's a great first date for fitness people. I do. I think if you're into working out and it's important to you and you want to go on a date and that's also important to you, so you're kind of selecting who you're going to go out with because, you know, and so that's one of the things.

[Doug Egge]

You want to see what outfit they pick.

[Sal Di Stefano]

No, I just think it's a great first date because it's disarming. You can have fun. You're doing something while, while having conversation. You know, I think it, it can, it can go great. Or also, I think it also tell you this isn't going to work.

[Doug Egge]

What kind of noises do they make when they're lifting?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Don't you guys.

[Doug Egge]

Feels a lot.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Don't you use a great first day?

[Justin Andrews]

I don't know, dude. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about this one.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I mean, you can't go into it thinking, I'm gonna have a, like my workout.

[Justin Andrews]

I. It's because they don't get competitive. Yeah, I don't, I don't. I don't know how. I. I don't. I don't know where I'm at on that or not. Like, I don't. I don't think I ever wanted to marry anybody that was as obsessed about the gym as I was. And so if a girl wanted me to, it was down for a first day to go there. I'm not sure I. That's. That would be good for me or it would be ideal.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But you want someone who, I mean, who priorit. Who prioritizes health.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, for sure.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But is it like a maniac?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, like. Like enough to. Where they. On a first day to be like, we should go to the gym. Like, if, If a girl says, like, you like, hey, what do you want to do for stage? She's like, yeah, let's go to the gym. And you already know your relationship in the business.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I think you'll know that in the obsessive by the workout, you know, she's crazy.

[Justin Andrews]

So. Yeah. So that would be. That would be the big, like, I don't know.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I think it's cool because it's safe. So for women, it's a safe first date. Oftentimes they want to meet somewhere where it's public just in case they need to bounce or whatever. So it's safe. You can conversation.

[Doug Egge]

Get something out of it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. And conversation comes out naturally because you're doing something like you would with a hike. Although sometimes hikes I've heard, you know, I have cousins that go on dates and they say hikes are cool, but sometimes you don't want to go on a hike because you don't know the guy and you're by yourself out in the wherever. So they're like, I'd rather meet somewhere. Coffee is kind of, you know, played out, you know, type of deal.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I probably would. See, I would probably go. I would go more. I'd be more down. And I don't even like really hiking or doing so that. But you can go hikes, places that aren't like remote. Like, I wouldn't go hiking like in the random Mountains where there's nobody. But, like, you go places where there's like good places to walk.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I like that.

[Justin Andrews]

Like that. That's cool. Because it's like, like you both.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But you got to understand from a woman's perspective, going to be public. I talked to family members.

[Justin Andrews]

Walking the beach is public. You go down to Santa Cruz and go walk to beach and it's very public and it's. And you get a. Yeah, that's cool too. So like, maybe like that direction because, I don't know, like a girl that would want to go on a. On a. On a workout for her first visit, and I already know my relationship with the gym might be too much for me, then it would be.

[Sal Di Stefano]

She going to mess up your workout.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, no, no. That you just get two people that are. Unless you just get that lucky and you're. You both are beyond your insecurities and the things that drive you to want to go to the gym that much. I don't know.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I mean, think about it this way. Like you're on her first date and then she's squatting. She's got great technique.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, that's a turn off. That is. That is.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Or she has bad.

[Justin Andrews]

I will. I will admit that. I will admit that. I mean, I don't know. Justin, where are you at? Doug? Where you at?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, I'm a little. I don't know.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I mean, that's how you met your wife?

[Doug Egge]

Well, that's why I met her. But I didn't take her there for a date.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It turned into that.

[Justin Andrews]

Wouldn't you, Doug?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't know why, but I don't think I'd want to do that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I think it says more about you than anything else. That's what I think.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I actually, you know, it's funny. I actually looked this up. I actually looked this up and people do this, huh?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And it's like been rated pretty high, particularly by.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, the point you make that's really good is it does say that that person prioritizes health.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. And so.

[Justin Andrews]

And that's a really important.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So here's where I read it. It was women. And let's be honest, let's be real. When it comes to dates, first dates, women dictate oftentimes what happens. It's just. Just the way it is. And it was a lot of women saying it was a great first date. I mean, she could see that.

[Justin Andrews]

Here, I'll sell it for you. Okay. So the other thing I could see is it's Also, you're only committed to one hour, right?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So it's like.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right. You can decide to go afterwards to eat.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Right? Yeah. You could be like, hey, you want to grab something to eat? Or you could be like, I'm good, I got to go. So you know what I'm saying?

[Sal Di Stefano]

And you got your fake an injury.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And it's very. It's very public.

[Doug Egge]

A lot from it, let's be honest. Like, you could find out if that person is really self absorbed.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's. That's exactly what was that.

[Justin Andrews]

Hell.

[Doug Egge]

We're getting. We're being listening to by the FBI.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Turn off your phone.

[Justin Andrews]

That's wild. That's so weird.

[Doug Egge]

But yeah. Yeah. I just think, like, you could read a lot about like their character, but based upon, like, if they're acknowledging your struggle, if they're kind of providing you with.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So that's what I was reading. I was reading that women were like, it's.

[Doug Egge]

I just thought of.

[Sal Di Stefano]

They were like, it's safe. Are they paying attention to me or are they checking out other women?

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Is he attentive? How's the conversation? Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

And so I can see it from their perspective.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes. So that's a lot of. That's a lot where this came from. And I'm like, oh, that makes sense. Right. Because if you're a woman and you go with a guy and you go to the gym and he's checking out other women.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You're probably. But if he's paying attention to you and. Or if he's being too mansplaining, you know, Let me show you what I mean. Oh, I know how to do this.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I mean, we're probably confident.

[Justin Andrews]

We're probably all terrible people to even talk about this because it's like, when was the last time any of us went on a first date? Because I'm as. I'm challenging, I'm going to go. It's been a long time since I've had to think about that. Where. Where would I go or what I'd like to do, Like. Yeah, I don't know.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Anyway, along these lines, I got to bring up.

[Doug Egge]

I'd rather go to concert.

[Sal Di Stefano]

We just. Of course you would. We. I gotta. I want to bring up a clip that we put up that is getting a lot of views, but also some controversy.

[Justin Andrews]

What's that?

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's the one that Josh did where I'm. There's a.

[Justin Andrews]

The shoulder one.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I didn't see any controversy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, I went on. I went on TikTok.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, well, that's why. Come on.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But no, it does bring up points that I think some people believe about upright rows. So they're dangerous in the video. Right? So in the video, there's a guy talking about how the way you get wide shoulders is doing upright rows way better than laterals this, that, and the other. And I'm a huge fan of upright rows. But then underneath it, you see these, like, they're either first time, like, you know, fitness students or trainers that are trying to sound smart and I could tell by what they're saying. So I'd like to address some of the stuff.

[Justin Andrews]

So one they try. They probably broke down a part of the shoulder and used that as like a.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Well, so one. One person goes. It's just. It's the same thing as a lateral raise. It's the same thing because of the motion. Right. So here's lateral. Here's a row. It's not. It's a different exercise. I hate it when people say, look at two exercises, look at the function and say it's the same. It's not.

[Doug Egge]

Not the same.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It is not the same pulling up versus raising out. Yeah. I guess at the Dell. But there's different stability and different involvement of muscles. So it's a very different feel on the body. So it's not different.

[Doug Egge]

Synchronic.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Synchronicities.

[Doug Egge]

Thank you.

[Justin Andrews]

You could also. You could also. You could also load. You can load an upright row way more and different too, of course. So, like, if you. It's a. It's a. I mean, if I wanted to go heavy on laterals or hit the lateral head from. From going heavy, I would not go heavy. Lateral dumb raises. I'd go upright road. That's right. I would do an upright road to do that. Yeah, it's, you know, it's tick tock, dude. I don't know. I'm. Shame on you for even going on that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

No, no, it brought up good points because I've heard coaches, I've heard these before. Or how about it causes impingement.

[Doug Egge]

In fact, speaking of which, this is a jerk press.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And I know that the one on your shirt. Yeah, okay.

[Doug Egge]

I'm aware of what a jerk press is. So everybody out there knows that. I just want to, like, blame that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's so dumb.

[Doug Egge]

Because of the title.

[Justin Andrews]

I know. It's so. I wish that when we first had the conversation that, that you said that you said, I'm. My goal is to just put 315 over my head. Yeah. Like that. It would have covered, like, all your. That way, like, I have to take.

[Doug Egge]

The fallout for that. I. I, like, projected that even in the series and was like, here's. I'm gonna get criticism for this. And, you know, I'm changing this.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

And sure enough, like, people just go, like, zero to the end.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I'd like to see people just hold 315. You don't even lift it. Just hold it.

[Doug Egge]

Just all the little nuances with. With my foot position and all that, because, like, they get really particular with, like, you know, when it's an Olympic standard and it's Olympic lift, you know, you can get down to the minuscule details and be judged on it. And so, you know, I get the armchair coaches that think they're, like, Olympic grade coaches.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

That are picking it apart, and it's, like, cool. I wasn't going for that. I was just going for the overhead part. My foot, you know, you can roast me on that. That's fine.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, go for it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, that was. That wasn't the point. So back to the upright row impingement. You know, any movement you can do with good control and good stability is safe. Any movement? Yeah, any movement you can conceptualize.

[Justin Andrews]

Imagine if you did a Jefferson Cruel. And on TikTok.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, my gosh. Just to.

[Justin Andrews]

Just. You should.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I'm gonna have Josh.

[Doug Egge]

Let's do, like, real.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And then talk about all the. How great.

[Doug Egge]

Good mornings, too, I'm sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Jefferson girl. And talk about what it's for and how great it is and just let it be on tick.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, it's gonna go.

[Justin Andrews]

Let it go. It'll let it go and see what happens.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. Someone else says, oh, it. It activates the infraspinatus and terror's minor reverse.

[Doug Egge]

There's a kid fresh certification looked at anat.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You know what's funny? That's the criticism. The criticism is it activates the infraspinatus and teres minor. Like a reverse arm wrestle. Why would you do that? Well, actually, that's not a bad thing. Why wouldn't you want to.

[Doug Egge]

Why wouldn't you want to do that?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. So. By the way, that's part of what makes the exercise difficult. Okay. That's why some people.

[Doug Egge]

Different function. You got to express different functions.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You want healthy shoulders, you should train it in different ways. And one of them is like that. And. Yes. Start lighting.

[Doug Egge]

It's like rounded lifting. Like rounded back lifting. We need to do it so we don't hurt ourselves.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right. You can get strong in so many different ways. And if you avoid getting strong in certain ways out of fear of injury. I'm not saying don't respect injury. You should always respect injury. But if you like avoid stuff, I don't know, don't move that way.

[Doug Egge]

It's an aggressive way to do it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You're going to actually cause problems for yourself in the future.

[Justin Andrews]

So I wanted to bring up this weekend. It was really cool to watch you speak in Vegas. Obviously I've seen you speak a ton and I tease that I, I'm tired of hearing you talk because I've heard everything you say and I know what you're gonna say before you say it. But that was a huge audience. Right. There was about 15 to 1800 people live. There was thousands of people watching online. And this was also longer. Right. Normally it's 20, 30 minutes or so. This was 45 minutes and you easily could have went an hour. I saw towards the end you had to speed things up to get it in. And I was, I'm saying we're at a place too Peptide conference. Right. Or Congress where we're at. I would say more than half the audience are doctors, you know.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So that majority. I would be terrified to speak up in front of that audience for sure. Because heaven forbid I go up there and try and act like I know I'm talking about. But you did such a good job of communicating that at all levels. My what I mean by that is if you are somebody who is new and you definitely made a lot of sense and, and explained it very. Which is what we're we. Everyone knows we're good at that already. But you also did a really good job. This is. And I don't know how many people know like this is the real art to being a smart trainer is your ability to let people like doctors know that like I know what the I'm talking about. But I don't need to. I don't need to show you that much to where it's insecure of me. So you, you talked intelligently and high enough level enough self deprecating little humor.

[Doug Egge]

Bits in there to keep it going.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So just. Absolutely. And I was listening to the people all around and several people that had been there from the already listening to all the talks was like oh my God, that was the best talk that I heard yet. And a lot of people that weren't my. We had probably I don't know you at one point you asked how many people were familiar with our show and I don't know maybe half the Audience raised their hands or whatever. And I was more interested in the people that hadn't listened to our show. So that's who I'm watching. Right. So after you said that early on, I'm like, now I'm, like, watching the doctors and the people that, like, didn't know who we were because I really wanted to see their critique. And that was. The feedback was just that it was the best talk. And then those people were so, like, I hear other people who knew who we were, like, sharing our. Our podcast with those people were like, where. Who. Who are these guys?

[Sal Di Stefano]

And then.

[Justin Andrews]

So it was really cool to see that. Absolutely. Just. Just crushed that and did incredible with the slides. I know she prepared you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

She's a machine. I don't know how she does. And thanks, by the way, for. For saying that it was. You know, it's actually one of the things that I'm the most nervous doing, so I appreciate that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy that you say that, because it does not. I mean, we watched several other talks, and, I mean, I can see they're nervous. And these are doctors. Right. So I'm watching other doctors follow you and. And see how nervous they are communicating. And to think that you. Think. You say that you're really. That makes you nervous is like, you definitely don't come off that way.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's an honor to speak. Well, I gotta say, it's an honor to represent us because you guys are just what people don't see behind the scenes, what you guys do. I mean, I work with men that are just, in my opinion, far greater than I am. And so to represent us is such an honor, but a responsibility. So that's what makes me so nervous, is because I'm up there not just representing myself, I'm representing you guys. And I don't want to do anything that. That is, anything other than reflecting just how. How awesome I think you guys are. So that makes me nervous. It makes me nervous when I get up there, but it's fun. I enjoy doing it. We got great feedback and did incredible. She always does a great job. I don't know how she does it. I'll. I'll give her my idea and, like, two days later, she'll have a slide deck that's like. I mean, ridiculous. She's like a machine.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, she's a master engineer.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Incredible machine. The people there were. It's an interesting place, right? It's like medical professionals who are also super into, like, fitness and nutrition. So it's just like Great. You know, coming together of people.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Really, really cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You know, one of my favorite parts, because it even too, like, this lady next to me hadn't heard of us and was like, why are all these people? Because some people are coming getting, like, pictures of us.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doug Egge]

She's like, what. What do you do? I always have, like, a podcast. It's been around for a while, you know, just downplaying it. And then she was looking into it and then. Anyway, she's like a primary care doctor and was like, what. What's encouraging is that, like, this whole peptide movement and a lot of the interest in preventative medicine measures and all these other things is reaching, like, general practitioners, primary care doctors that they're like, so fed up with, like, not getting any kind of result with their patients, and they're, like, looking for these things to. To really benefit. It's like they're. They're just as passionate as they were. They just haven't had the tools, you know, and it's so. It's cool to see a movement and a big movement too, in that direction.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, it's interesting. It's a really interesting space. I don't know how. Where it's going to go. Because peptides are not like pharmaceuticals. They're different. They're naturally occurring in the body, so the body kind of knows what to do with them. Safety profile is generally much better. They tend to be regenerative versus pharmaceuticals, which oftentimes come with all kinds of different, you know, hosts of issues. And it's exploding. I mean, he's. Dr. Seeds is gonna have. He said he's gonna double the space.

[Doug Egge]

That's crazy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

For next year.

[Doug Egge]

I know.

[Sal Di Stefano]

He's gonna double space. What was really cool?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, they sold out.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What was really cool is they in. In essentially, they asked me to speak. And what they offered as part of us going over there was they gave us. They set us up with a space to do whatever we wanted with. And so we're like, should we do a live event? What should we do? And our training department just started training all these virtual clients this year. Like, why don't we invite these virtual clients so we can all meet them?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That is my favorite thing I've ever done.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

To see the trainers.

[Justin Andrews]

You said that a few times.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Well, we had Kyle go up there and give out awards or talk about his trainers. We saw the trainers go up there, give out Warsaw clients. We got to meet these people who are training with our trainers. And then, you know, we got to hang out with them. And it was. Oh my God, man.

[Doug Egge]

It's just a glimpse of what's to come. I think I got really excited about too, Sal. I saw just so much potential and highlighting. And again, this goes back to like, you know, having Jamie on the show and having his story, like impactful and powerful. That is.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

And like this was like another extension of that that we're building and growing. And so it just. I could see like a lot of energy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I almost cried three times. I saw first Kyle up there and here's a guy that we, we call him a kid because we're old, but he's. He's a man. And he's up there on stage and we hired him as an intern. As a, as an intern. And here he is leading a department and he's. He's just a gifted individual.

[Doug Egge]

He's crushing it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And then we see these trainers go up there and I'm like, we just hired you and you're doing such great things. And then we're meeting these clients and the stories that they're telling us of their. I lost £50. I lost £100. I had chronic pain. This changed my life. I've been working with Marcelo. He's done this. I've been working with Cole. This is what happened.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm in my mid-70s, deadlifting over 200 pounds.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes.

[Doug Egge]

Can we talk about that lady? That's so awesome.

[Sal Di Stefano]

She's my favorite. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So sick.

[Doug Egge]

She's a badass energy too. She's just full life.

[Sal Di Stefano]

70. I'm gonna brag on her. She's not gonna like this, but I know because she's like, like very humble.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

She's a 76 year old pathologist, which first of all, if you're a female pathologist at 76, you came through when that was a good old boys club. So you had to be a badass back then for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Like they weren't letting you in. So she's. That Then she's talking about strength training and now she's deadlifting. 200 pounds. Bench pressing was 125 pounds. 76 years old.

[Justin Andrews]

76.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So much.

[Justin Andrews]

And got into it like later on.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Like she's like. It's not like she was powerlifting young and then now she's been like. That was like later found that we. She. She was. I don't know if she told you this or not, but she like credited us to getting her into strength training. And she goes, that's what made me start doing it. And the fact that in the short time that she's been listening to the show, had hired trainers, got into the powerlifting, progressed to where she's doing over £200 at 76 year old. Is dope.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, so great.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I met another young lady who lost like a lot of weight. She's been working with Kyle now for a. God. Over a year. Over a year, yeah. Remember her? And she's going to become a trainer. I'm going to tell you this. This has happened to me only a couple times where I had a client become a trainer. It's the greatest compliment.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Ever. When you take a client who had no interest in it and then suddenly.

[Doug Egge]

They want to make it full circle, it's like, whoa, that's the greatest.

[Justin Andrews]

And from everywhere, man, we had Florida, Ohio, Montana. God, where else do we have Oklahoma? Oklahoma. I mean, I mean, man, there was like nobody local. Everybody was from all over the country had flown in. And I mean I felt, I felt so special that they did that for. I mean, there's a short period of time to hang out. I mean, it's not like we had three days worth of stuff lined up for them. It's like they came down there to, to meet us and the trainers and to spend all. That was cool. It was, it was very cool. So very, very cool and neat to see the beginning of this and to watch it. I think it'll be even cooler to talk about it four or five years down the road.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, it's going to be so awesome. I told all the trainers, we all had dinner afterwards and we all sat down, we're doing toasts. And I said, you guys, remember this moment because this is going to grow so fast. You're going to look back and remember when it was this small, this intimate and it's going to be. And you're going to think just so fondly of it. Like, like I think about when we, when I go back, think about when we first created programs back in the day.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Trying to make this thing grow. Like how, you know that'll never happen again. You know, that, that energy. Because everything's so different.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm also, I mean, I shouldn't probably formally announce it, but I mean, we're talking about it. So it's like the shift that we're going through right now in the company and one of the exciting. It was a very aha moment for me. What I did was I put myself back in. Like, you know, what if this thing was, was, was so small that it was just me and I didn't have you guys. But yet I was getting some traction and building an audience and building, you know, a culture around a business. And, you know, I had. Instead of having, you know, hundreds of people buying mass programs every day, I had five people, you know, three to five people, which. A single person being able to sell three to five, you know, digital programs of theirs every day would be an incredible feat. And so we've gotten so far beyond that for so long that I've lost touch and was ashamed that I. I wasn't communicating and talking with those people more and that we. And. And granted, I shared this with some of the clients. They're like, oh, my God, you guys kidding me? Like, your customer service team is so incredible. You email and they get right back to you. They help you. I felt like I had. I was like, yeah, I know, but not at the level that we should. Not at the level that every person that's. I said, you took action.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The individualized level.

[Justin Andrews]

Right? You took it. You took action and emailed our team in and then. And we have done that. We have done a good job of building a customer service team that's responsive. But, I mean, there's a lot of people that buy every day that, you know, they get a welcome email. That's a. That's. That's it. You know, I'm saying they don't get a call from one of us. They don't get a call from someone on our team that's making sure that they got the right program, that they're being held. And so, you know, we're moving in that direction to get back to. And it's. And it's going to be a major investment, both time and financially, to build that in place to where I want. When somebody is like, okay, I know I want to get started. I'm not sure if this is the right program or not or what I should be doing. That you get touched by a person on our team that makes sure that you're being helped through that process. And so, you know, getting back to that is really, really important. And the fact that, I mean, I let us go this long and not. And not do that was just like. It just was like a total aha moment for me of like, man, what am I doing? Like, your. Your most successful founders, right? Your big, big entrepreneurs that everybody knows the names of are always either obsessed with product or customer. Yeah, obsessed. Like, they don't talk about all the other details that. That. That entail scaling a big business that are also very important and difficult and whatever they. All this is, it's all about the customer. It's all about the product. Whichever field you're in, whether you're into service business where you're helping people, it's customer obsession. If it's about a product you're delivering, it's product obsession. And I, I've lost. I lost that customer obsession that I believe we had when it was just nobody really. You know what I'm saying? When we were small was like, remember the way we made everybody feel that just started listening to podcasts when it was. And it's like, so excited to. To really get back and move in that direction because. So if you're a early listener or just getting started, you haven't bought a MOPS program, what's coming down the pipe for those people? Super excited to. To shift the business in that direction.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, I love it. I love it, Adam. All right, guys.

[Doug Egge]

Do you guys know much about the capybaras? That animal?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Aren't they the. The big rodents, like the biggest rodent?

[Justin Andrews]

That's an animal. What is it?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Looks like a massive.

[Doug Egge]

It looks like a rat. Yeah, like a possum looking.

[Sal Di Stefano]

They had, like, more of a flat.

[Doug Egge]

Nose, like a pig. Hairy pig kind of a.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's a huge rodent.

[Doug Egge]

Huge almost. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I always thought, like, a possum was one of the biggest rodents.

[Sal Di Stefano]

No, bro. Kevin Bar is huge. Look it up, Doug.

[Doug Egge]

Almost like a. A big ass prairie dog or something.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, there you go.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's the world's biggest rodent. And they're.

[Justin Andrews]

They're like a giant groundhog.

[Doug Egge]

So what was trippy to me was just how they're going through. And they were walking in between this, like, like hundreds of. Of. Of crocodile predators, and none of them were being touched.

[Justin Andrews]

Why?

[Sal Di Stefano]

By the crocodiles?

[Doug Egge]

They have this weird, like, relationship with animals.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What do you mean?

[Doug Egge]

Where? There. It's like it's beneficial on some level. They're like, super friendly. Like, all the animals, like, get along with them.

[Justin Andrews]

What are its predators?

[Doug Egge]

It's. It's. I think it's pumas and like, some.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Big cats, so, so eat them because they're nice.

[Doug Egge]

I have no idea.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It doesn't make any sense.

[Doug Egge]

Like, they have some. They think maybe it's some kind of pheromone or some, you know, thing like, you know, some kind of, like, chemicals they emit. I don't know.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, Other big cats. That's it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

No. Jaguars, Pumas and Caymans. Caymans will get them.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Well, okay. But not the crocodiles for Some reason.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Weird.

[Justin Andrews]

Look, it's right there next to a crocodile. Look at the picture.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's weird.

[Doug Egge]

It's really weird, dude. You watch these videos, walking through them, like chilling, and then they have this.

[Justin Andrews]

Like symbiotic relationship with birds, the capybaras, with other animals. Is it like show them with like all these other.

[Doug Egge]

Apparently they get along with dogs, like, you know, like domesticated animals.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, look at with the cat.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You can have it as a pet.

[Justin Andrews]

I didn't even know this was a thing.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, they like chill with like every animal. They're like really chill animals.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You can have one as a pet.

[Doug Egge]

I was like, I kind of want one now. They seem like they're super cute.

[Justin Andrews]

Where, where, where are they? Where are they?

[Sal Di Stefano]

South America. No, where are they from?

[Doug Egge]

Africa.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, probably Africa with the crocodiles.

[Doug Egge]

Sahara or something.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I don't know.

[Justin Andrews]

I have never seen one of those before.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, Yeah, I. Oh, go to Happy Hollow, South America. Yeah, you're right.

[Doug Egge]

There you go.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Wow. But yeah, I was just. I was like, how does that. How does that work? How do you get so chill that like every animals.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The hippies.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. Why would you eat me, bro?

[Doug Egge]

Hey, come on, man.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You know what I saw in my backyard yesterday? A fox.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, dude. A straight up fox was just chilling in my backyard. I want to go to.

[Doug Egge]

What did it say?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Huh? Stupid.

[Justin Andrews]

Stop, bro.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Hey, I gotta. I gotta give credit to our partners at Caldera lab. Have you seen their website lately?

[Justin Andrews]

No.

[Sal Di Stefano]

If you go on the good. The serum, that's the one we like, right? The oil, they have their studies that they did legit studies. So 96% of people who use their product like remarked that they had significant improvement to their skin. They also now have before and after pictures. So they have a picture of a person's face before and after using the product for a little bit.

[Justin Andrews]

Good.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And you can see the difference.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, we've been saying that forever on the podcast. I. I could tell after one. One application of it. It's like you can tell a difference.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So I looked up all the ingredients. It's too long to talk about, but I looked up all the individual ingredients. First of all, they're all botanicals. Most of the ingredients are botanical based, but they have ingredients in there that boost collagen production, that have microbiome balancing capabilities, stem cell that, that help with sebum production. So you don't over produce oil. This is why it's an oil that doesn't make your face oily. So like I can use it. And I have oily skin and it doesn't make my face like over oily. And then they have the before and afters, which I thought I was on their website this morning looking. I'm like, oh my God, that's brilliant. So good.

[Justin Andrews]

So I was using. I use for the first time the, the sunscreen. So for the face I used there. I don't know what the. Esk.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Why are you using sunscreen? What do you mean? What do you mean?

[Justin Andrews]

Lay out of the pool for five hours?

[Sal Di Stefano]

You're brown, dude.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, bro. I can't. If I do, you get summer. No, what I get are like sunspots and bumps. So if I lay out, like, my, My skin doesn't really.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You have like photosensitivity.

[Justin Andrews]

I don't know what the scientific name is for what I get, but what I get is sunscreen. If I stay out with nose, like, I can handle no sunscreen out.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You get the white spots.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, they're. Well, they're like a bunch almost like a rash.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, that is photosensitivity.

[Justin Andrews]

So like a heat, like. Okay, yeah, like. So that's what I'll get from it. I won't get red burn, but I'll get those all over. And it's. It's typically after I've been out for a couple hours with no protection at all.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You know what helps with that?

[Justin Andrews]

What?

[Sal Di Stefano]

That omega 3 fatty acids.

[Justin Andrews]

Taking them like.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes. Orally. Yep. Taking them before. Before and during. And I just got that vitamin kcu.

[Justin Andrews]

I got that vitamin C spray. So I've been. I mean, I. I don't get it. So long as I put a little bit of the protectant on. I don't get it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's activating a little autoimmune issue in you. That happens to some people. Yeah, they're. Yeah, their sunscreen's good because it's the mineral based one. Oh, boy. Let me tell you, do not, do not look up the. The chemical based ones. And all the studies that they're now tying to what they do to your. To your body and stuff and how much they build up in your system. Oh, I don't even know how they're still available.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, it's wild. I got some studies on temperature and sleep and how much it affects your sleep. Let me pull them up for you. So. Actually makes a huge difference. A 2008. I didn't need to study. I know, but they have, they actually have the numbers. Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Sal Di Stefano]

A 2018 study in the Journal of Psych Physiological Anthropology showed that a. Ready for this? Just the 2 degrees Celsius deviation above or below 64 degrees Fahrenheit. So 18 degrees Celsius. So I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but 2 degrees Celsius, just the difference of that. Increased wakefulness by 20% and reduced REM sleep by 15%.

[Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So little change in temperature will have a cumulative total negative effect on your sleep.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, speaking of that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And then. And well, next up they did a study on cooling technologies like eight sleep. This is what I was going to bring up. Improve sleep quality by 10 to 15% across the board. Just that alone, I think nothing else. 10 to 15.

[Justin Andrews]

I think it's way.

[Doug Egge]

It makes up for that.

[Justin Andrews]

Way more than that. I mean that's a neat study. But. But I'll tell you right now, it makes a night and day difference for me so much that I was so mad that. So I, I don't know if I told you this, that. And I've been doing it for a while now where I, I've started to use the warming up feature of it also.

[Sal Di Stefano]

To wake you up?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, to wake me up, which is great.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You need your alarm when you do that.

[Justin Andrews]

Huh?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Do you need an alarm?

[Justin Andrews]

Oh no.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Isn't that wild?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Well, so here's a caveat to this, right? So we went to. We just got back from Vegas. We didn't get home till 1:30 in the morning. I showered. By the time I went to bed it was 2 in the morning. So I'm like planning on sleeping in for Father's Day. And the damn bed. The damn. Yeah, I forgot that I had the. I mean it's all, it's all AI now. So it's been set forever. I don't even think about it and never do I have to worry about, you know, I don't, I don't ever get to really sleep in past 7 o' clock in the morning. So. So what that it wakes me up any other day during the week or whatever that, But I don't normally stay up till two in the morning. And so I was like, I get woken up from the heat. I'm so mad that I didn't shut that off. And then by that time I was like, I'm up. You know, like I wanted to sleep in. That was the plan. But the, the bed warmed. Warmed. It does such a good job of like.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Is that what time you guys got home?

[Doug Egge]

It was, it was even worse for me.

[Justin Andrews]

Like he's later, probably.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. So I had to go home. And I get so far as to like almost three quarters of the way home. And then the. The whole freeway is like, closed.

[Justin Andrews]

What?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Why?

[Doug Egge]

And they were shuttling people. I guess there was a fatality. And so we had to go the back roads. And so everybody going to the back roads at the same time was like just crawling.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, my God.

[Doug Egge]

I didn't get home till 2:30.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And then.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, probably went to sleep at like 3.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I'm so glad I didn't.

[Doug Egge]

So.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Because I decided to leave the next.

[Doug Egge]

Morning, it was just.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I mean, that would have been brutal. That's why I decided.

[Doug Egge]

I just started laughing.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I ended up. I mean, I had to wake up at 4:30am to make that flight more brutal for me. It's okay. You know why? Because I can sleep on the plane.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, you also get up early, so it's not. So it's not that big of a deal. You getting up an extra hour early. That's getting up like four hours earlier for me.

[Doug Egge]

I'd be anticipating a different day.

[Justin Andrews]

So as much as it was late for me and I'm bitching, like, I still wouldn't have done that different. No way. I was like, that was the way to go. I mean, I was. But I also have to like, I can't fly on a plane and not shower afterwards. I've got a shower. So when I get home, I had to shower. And then. And then that took another 20 minutes. And then. So it was close to 2 in the morning.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I took. So. So I was flying southwest on the way back, right? So you got the little tiny seats.

[Justin Andrews]

Don't even get me started.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, bro. So. So anybody. Listen, if you're like any bigger than average, those seats are suck, right? So I'm in my seat.

[Doug Egge]

I've done my.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And I had a. You know, because, you know, Katrina books it for me. So it's like, hey, I'm in first, right? So I sit near the front because I want to get off the plane when the plane lands, by the way. I have a thing with that. I hate staying on the plane when it lands. I just want to get the hell off.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So I always sit near the front. So I'm sitting in the front. I'm in the next of the window and it's filling up, filling up, filling up, filling up. And giant dude sits on the other chair, but there's a middle one that's open. So I'm like, oh, no one's gonna sit in the Middle, like I'm spilling.

[Doug Egge]

Why would you do that?

[Sal Di Stefano]

This. This dude that's like twice as big as me is over there. I'm like, this is gonna be great. Yeah. Nope, Full flight. So the last person was another big dude who got to sit. No. Yeah, dude. So we're just hosses, we're just touching. We're just to knees and elbows the whole time.

[Justin Andrews]

So Justin and I, we. We were a. Also and we got him and I said, he sat on the. The window. I sat on the aisle. And so I was like, oh, yeah. Two 200 plus pound guys. Like everyone's gonna walk past us. And they were. But then I hear the lady go like, this is a completely full flight.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, I'm gonna. I told you. I'm gonna grab the next kid that just walks. Just grab a shirt. We, we made out though. We had like, we had to kind of a petite lady that sat next to us. So it worked out. But I was like, you're just rolling the dice at that point. You get. You like, you think it's a good strat if it's not a full flight. Great strategy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Have two big full.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You're screwed.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. If it's full. Not. And then, because what happens is all the early people see you and that they're like, no, I ain't sitting there. And they start working their way back. And then it's like you get whoever the last person is you just got.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So I have a strategy. I'm going to share it right now. Even though I probably shouldn't give it away. I'll ask them. And I didn't ask them this time, but I'll ask them, is it a full flight? If they say no, I'll sit in the aisle seat of where I want to sit.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And I put my headphones on and I close my eyes like I'm asleep. And I'm like, nobody's gonna bother me to walk by me. And usually it works. Nobody wants to bother the big dude, looks like he's asleep to get by to the other seat. So usually it's like I end up with my own aisle. I know. Such a jerk.

[Justin Andrews]

Everybody has taxes. You got people that put their stuff, you know what I'm saying, With their.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Backpack just to just fart.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Nobody will sit home.

[Justin Andrews]

We're tall enough and big enough that it's, it's. You don't even have to like try. And they're just, you know, people walk by going, how do you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Like, how do you like strong men do it. Like, what do they do? They have to get two tickets.

[Doug Egge]

It's hilarious. Yeah, I've seen pictures of like Robert Oberst and like some of those guys. There's no way airplane.

[Sal Di Stefano]

There's no way you can fit in the chair.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, they fill up.

[Justin Andrews]

There's no way halfway in the other fly Southwest. You just can't do it. Yeah, it's rare that we do. Right. If it's a tiny short flight, it's. I've told the assistant that like that's the only time you can get me is if it's a LA or Vegas flight or I'm on that plane for an hour, I can I deal with it. Any more than that, I'll take another day, take another flight, whatever.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Here's how. Here's how big of a wimps we are. Because, you know, I got this funeral coming up and I'm gonna talk about like my uncle coming over here when he was a boy and this and that and man. My grandmother came across the ocean on a boat on the last class. So whatever that is. Like first, second, third class. Which means she's on the bottom.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And all she. She had. She had her son with her and her didn't speak any English and all they had for food was a block of cheese and they made it across and the. In the boat, the shit broke down in the middle of the ocean and had to get fixed. And like we're complaining because an hour flight, the seat's too small, you know, type of deal. Anyway, I want to announce this again because we still have applicants coming in if you want to be a trainer or coach and work for us. We are still taking applications, but make no mistake, this is a. It is not easy to get hired by us. So you gotta. You'll get put through the ringer. But if you think you got what it takes, go to mindpump personal training.com. apply Paleo Valley's Bone Bone Broth protein powder is one of the least processed protein powders I've ever used in my entire life. It's super close to natural. Closer than any other protein powder I've used. It's also the best tasting. I'm not making this up. It tastes incredible. And collagen does have some unique benefits. It's very high in collagen. Anyway, go check them out. Go to paleovalley.com mindpump on that link. You'll get 15% off. Back to the show. Our first caller is Sam from the uk. Sam, what's up, man.

[Justin Andrews]

How you doing?

[Sam]

Hi, guys. Yeah, yeah, good, thanks. How are you?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Good, good. How can we help you?

[Sam]

So basically I've just asked after your help for. I basically been trying to lose weight and, and gain fitness for years and years now, but from listening to you guys recently, I've realized that I might have been doing a completely wrong. So I've been, as you mentioned before, like, just adding on more and more volume, more and more volume, eating less and less calories, and that's the way I've been going about it. It's obviously not been working. I've recently started doing maps 15 just as a sort of starter thing. I thought I'd pick Max 15 as a first program to. To pick from. You guys followed it to the letter. I'm on just about to start Phase three. I actually just had to do the last week of Phase two again because I got this tattoo and then had to have some time off. So I started again from the last week of phase two. So I'm just about to start phase three tomorrow and. And yeah, I'm just, basically, I'm not getting the results that I'm expecting. Not, not from the Maps program, but everything I've been doing in the past. So in the past I've been trying to do hit cardio, strength training, all of it, at the same time, and I think I'm completely over training. My diet is intermittent fasting, but when I eat, I do eat good food, but I'm pretty sure I'm not eating anywhere near the amount of calories that I need to. So I've heard you guys talk about reverse dieting in the past, and I don't really understand how that works, but I think it might be something that I need to look at to get my calories back up.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay, let's talk about the last couple months since following Mass 15. Are you doing the. The free weight version or the suspension trainer version?

[Sam]

I'm doing the advanced one. Yeah, the free weight version.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay. Have you seen any changes in your strength and performance in the gym?

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah, I have. I have seen. I'm definitely lifting heavier now than I was when I started it. Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay, awesome.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a good sign.

[Sal Di Stefano]

All right, so you're progressing, moving in.

[Justin Andrews]

The right direction for sure.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay. Calories wise, let's talk about this for a second. Do you know what your caloric intake is now?

[Sam]

I don't. I've never tracked.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay, that's where you're at. That's where I would start. You know, if you're eating Whole Foods, you're exercising now you're following our program. You backed off on all the overtraining. What you've probably accomplished so far is a nice level of fitness, but it sounds to me like you're looking to go kind of next level.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

This is when you start to track and get some numbers and this will give you an idea of where you're at and then where you need to go.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm willing to bet your intuition is probably spot on. I'll tell you this. The fact that you were able just to switch over to Mass 15 and see strength gains and so progress in the right direction is a really good sign. And if you already think you're probably under eating nutrients in particular protein and then actually still getting stronger in spite of that, that that's a really good sign. That means if we actually. So let's say you decide and you actually go track and you find out, oh wow, I was right. I'm only eating 60, 70 grams of protein every day and I still was able to progress what I did. We really dial that in and go. After hitting your body weight right. In grams of protein consistently while still sticking to like a Maps 15 protocol, I think you're going to see, I think you're going to see accelerate really quick. That's a, that could be a difference maker right there. Like you could be seeing a little bit of progress just simply from the good programming and the better balance of exercise. And then the only thing you're lacking right now is really dialing in the nutrition part. Because if you're turning around, you're doing all this great workout, but then you're eating say 1500 calories a day and 60 grams of protein, it's going to be really hard for you to build muscle like that. Whereas if you just make an effort to go, okay, now I'm gonna stick on mass 15, I'm not changing anything there, but I'm gonna make it an effort for the next 30 days. I'm not gonna miss my. Say whatever Your number is, 170 grams of protein every day and then you do that. I guarantee in 30 days you're gonna see a significant difference just by simply doing that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Do you know what's your target body weight?

[Sam]

My target body weight is about 65 kilograms. I'm at 70 at the minute.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay, so 65 kilos, what is that in pounds? That's close. 100? Close to the number 150, would you say more than that? Maybe 100?

[Justin Andrews]

Is it about 160 something.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Is it. Let me see, 65 times 2.2. Let me do the math here real quick. Yeah. About 143. Okay. So I would aim for about 150 grams of protein a day.

[Sam]

Okay.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And you could just track that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, just track that. Don't worry too much about the other calories. Eat when you're hungry. Make it protein centric. Because if you're eating good choices, the thing that might be challenging. Sam, I don't know how much of a fan I am of you trying to do this while intermittent fasting.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. How many meals are you having a day with that?

[Sam]

Yeah, so I'm having two meals a day.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Lunch.

[Justin Andrews]

That's going to be really hard.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So you would have to eat if you were just doing two meals a day to hit those targets. You would need 75 grams of protein per meal.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a lot.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Which is a lot of protein in one meal. And they could. I mean, once I get to 60 or so, I start to. Oh, I get full.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, you're going to spread that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So what you might want to do is eat. Eat 50 grams of protein three times a day. And maybe one of those meals is a shake if you want to make it real easy. But hitting your protein targets. So if you're only eating two meals a day, I would venture to say you're probably closer to 80 grams of protein a day.

[Justin Andrews]

Or less. Or less.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Which is really low for a guy, you know, who's trying to build muscle and, you know, with. With a target of 150. So I. I think if you just start there, I think what. Adam's spot on. And it wouldn't require you to track everything else.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I think that's just a great goal is just I'd kind of throw out the whole intermittent fasting thing trying to follow some sort of time window. Eat when you're hungry. Make whole food choices. Hit. Just track the protein. Hit that consistently for 30 days while you're following max 15. I'm willing to bet you see a big change just in 30 days.

[Sal Di Stefano]

How. Give me a typical. You're. Give me two. Your. Your. Both of your typical meals. How much meat would you say is in each. Each of those meals?

[Sam]

So, yeah, I mean, today it'd be pretty typical. So I have started recently, last sort of month or so, trying to put a breakfast in there. So. Okay, today for breakfast, Dad, a tin of mackerel. I do sometimes try and have sardines, but I can't really stomach them.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So you had one, one tin of mackerel. Do you know how. So it's one. So typically that's about 25 to 30 grams of protein.

[Sam]

Yeah, I think, I think it says 20. Between 20 and 25, it says on the tin. Okay, so 25 and a banana. That'll be for breakfast.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay.

[Sam]

And then lunch. A handful of nuts, two chicken thighs and a few portions of fruit.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay.

[Sam]

Tea chicken wasn't quite half a chicken. Half a chicken minus the chicken breast for dinner. Homemade chips and broccoli. So that's, that's what I've had today. And that's pretty typical.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, you're about, you're about 100 grams of protein or less or, or a little less probably. Of course you have tea. You're in the uk. I heard you throw that in there. My wife's family's from the uk. Yeah, they have tea all the time.

[Justin Andrews]

It's great.

[Sam]

So I think that I, I might struggle to get any more sort of actual food. So you think maybe a shake?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would throw in, I would throw in a shake, like a 30 gram shake with breakfast and maybe another one before bed.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Unless you can eat the food or.

[Sam]

I did hear you mention on a, on an episode recently about drinking a glass of milk with every.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a good strategy.

[Doug Egge]

If you can do it.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a great strategy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You could do that. I don't know if you'll hit the protein targets with a glass of milk because we're looking at adding about 50 calorie wise.

[Justin Andrews]

Those little Greek yogurts are incredible. They make them now with like 20, 20 grams of protein in those little Greek yogurt cups. And those are easy, those are easy to get down. I love. Those are like huge hacks for me. I always keep. I've got those in my refrigerator all the time. And so if I'm down, I need a quick 20 grams. I can eat easily two or three of those in a day. One sitting, I can eat two easy. That's 40 grams right there. So that's an easy, that's an easy light one to throw at the end of the night or whatever. I love that. So if you, if you have Greek yogurt or ever eat that, like, that's a great throw a little bit of blueberries on it or fruit tastes amazing.

[Sam]

I love you. I love yogurt. And put some frozen blueberries in it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam]

And usually put a few spoonfuls of seeds in it as well.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what I do. So that's great. And so add that. Add that in the day. I mean, the big thing is this. Just make a goal for yourself. I'm going to give 30 days, and I'm not going to miss 150 grams a day. Just. Just watch what happens if you do that for 30 days straight.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You will see a physical difference in your. In your physique by doing that and following just that alone. That'll make a difference.

[Sam]

And do you think that that will. The main thing that I'm trying to. That I'm trying to change is. Is my stomach. So I've always. I've always had, for the last sort of probably 20 years, is some. Some belly fat. Like, I look pretty decent in a vest. My arms look good, My chest looks fine. But my stomach, I always carry my weight there.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yep. Yep. So what'll probably happen through what we're saying is you'll see body composition change.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So I don't know if your weight will stay. Will change on the scale, but you'll get. You'll build some muscle and probably get leaner as a result.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. If we. If, If. If we're guessing right, which I feel pretty confident in, what's going to happen here is you should notice at the end of the month, you will feel and look a little more muscular, and you'll notice like, you've leaned out a little bit in your stomach, just a little bit like you. And the scale will probably say pretty similar. You shouldn't see a major swing up or down on the scale. You should find. You should be able to at the end of the month. This is what my client would say to me. If you were my client, you'd probably go, man, Adam, I feel like I'm eating more. I feel strong energy, and I feel like my waist is starting to go down. It's not gonna be crazy. You're not gonna get shredded Lean in 30 days. But you should feel like you're not only leaning out, building muscle, and then also feel like you're eating more. That's. I mean, that's what we're looking for in the next 30 days.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

And I feel confident that you'll feel that. And then now it's just a matter of consistency. Okay. You've proved the model. That's what you need to do. Just keep doing that the next 30 days and watch. And then when you look back after 90 days, you're gonna be like, oh, okay, I get it. This is just it. This is what I need to do.

[Sam]

Yeah, I think, I think now currently is the. Probably the most consistent I've been for a long time because like I said, I used to just try and do all of the train as much training as I could possibly do, and after three or four weeks, I'd be. I'd be shattered.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Exhaust.

[Justin Andrews]

That's most people, Sam.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. You feel good, you feel strong. We're doing it, right?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam]

And then I guess obviously I'm coming towards the first three of Maps 15.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What, what.

[Sam]

Which other program would you Recommend for like 15 performance?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, if it's working for you, stick with the 15.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, 15 performance.

[Justin Andrews]

We can send you the. We'll send you maps 15 performance. But that's a good balance of. Especially from a guy who, who believes that he's already been over trained and undereating. That's a good place to be.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So I. I'd want you to be there through at least a pro. One or two times, two rounds before.

[Doug Egge]

Moving to like Anabolic would probably be the next progression.

[Justin Andrews]

And that's what it would look like. What it would look like is we've ran those. You've seen great results over 90 days and you're like, man, I'm feeling great, Adam. I'm eating more and every energy up. Okay, let's. Let's try Maps Anabolic now and then. That should then really take you off.

[Doug Egge]

Off.

[Sam]

All right, brilliant. And one last thing is with the Maps 15, I said I've been following it to the letter. I have in. In terms of the exercises, the reps, rest times, all that sort of stuff. Only thing I've been doing different is I've been doing two days at a time. So rather than doing.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

[Sam]

Just because I didn't feel fulfilled from doing 15 minutes. Yeah, I was just doing it sort of 30 minutes a day.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So you're in there, you're in there for three days a week then, or whatever.

[Sam]

Yeah, three days a week.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That works.

[Sam]

And then I usually do a bit of an ab session after the. After the third day, I'll have a rest.

[Sal Di Stefano]

All right, good.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I love that. I love that.

[Doug Egge]

That's not bad at all.

[Justin Andrews]

And anything you add is walking. So, you know, get out, take some good walks.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Sam]

I've got two dogs, so they keep me.

[Justin Andrews]

There you go. Perfect.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, man.

[Justin Andrews]

We're gonna send over the. The mass 15 performance over to you. So you have that to run through that and then stick to that for.

[Doug Egge]

Another 36 days protein, man.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you'll be good, Sam.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep, Brilliant. All right. All right, brother.

[Sam]

All right. Thanks for your help.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Take it easy. What time is it over there? Yeah, it's going to be late, huh? Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, he's. He's moving in the right direction. Protein makes such a big difference, you guys. I mean, I just read another study. Yeah, protein is interesting in the sense that has a higher thermic effect than carbs and fats, meaning when you eat, eat protein, your body actually burns more calories with protein than it does with the other macros. So this whole, like calorie versus calorie versus calorie is a bit of an oversimplification. And so what you tend to see, and not just to mention the side effects, the good side effects of building muscle, which tend to result in more fat loss. So sometimes bumping your calories through protein, as in this case, means that you're going to get leaner, which is interesting.

[Nicole]

Here's.

[Justin Andrews]

There's also a massive difference between the amount of protein you need just to survive and be quote, unquote, healthy.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, he's fine.

[Justin Andrews]

Exactly. Like he's not.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's not optimal.

[Justin Andrews]

And that, that's where there becomes all this debate and, and stuff that people read online different. It's like, well, according to this, I'm getting enough to be like, yeah, but if you want to build muscle, which will in turn speed your metabolism up, which will in turn lean your belly fat, right? So that you got it, you want to be in the optimal number. An optimal number is going to be at least that 150. He could get away with 170 plus and be all right. Like, that's. You want to be there. And then someone like this who was, who was that low and yet still seeing strength, trains, gains, you tweak that. Watch what happens over the next 30 days for him.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Our next caller is John from Tennessee. John, what's happening, man?

[Nicole]

What's up, guys? Appreciate you guys taking my call and taking the time to. To chat with me today.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You got it, man. How can we help you?

[Nicole]

Yeah, so about three years ago, I was experiencing some. Some different things in life and I went to the doctor and, and suspected what I suspected was true. And my testosterone was very low. Within the, in the 200s, got on TRT. Since then I got back into the gym. I've been in and out of the gym veteran and throughout my whole life, life because of military experience and whatnot. So I've had ups and downs With Jim. But Anyway, got on TRT, got back in the gym. Since I got on TRT, I've lost 25 pounds, doing much better, you know, in cholesterol. All kind of health issues kind of turned around. But I'm still on TRT, you know, 500 milligrams every two weeks. But anyway, my question is, you know, I've also experienced some, some injuries. I'm just recovering. I'm about 20 weeks out from a bicep up tendencies in my left, left shoulder. I've had some stress fractures. I've had some, you know, just things of that nature. And you read so much on the Internet. What adverse effects does TRT have? Do they lead to torn biceps or torn tendons? Do they lead to, you know, some prostate issues? I've read some enlarged prostate side effect, possible things of that nature in, should I consider coming off, you know, now that I'm 25 pounds lighter and it's certainly healthier. And if you, if I do come off, what's the best way to transition off of it? And, and then the final question, I'd like to talk to you guys, if I do stay on it. If you're on trt, is there any advantage to taking other supplements such as ashwagandha, tongkata, alaya or shilajit? You know, is that that good or is that just a waste of money? Yeah. So I'll throw those plethora of questions out at you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, John, I appreciate the question. Again, I'm going to preface this by saying we're not doctors. So we are going to speak from our experience interviewing these experts and just from our own, you know, understanding. So here's what's interesting about TRT is does it come with its own risks? It can, but not the ones that we tend to. The fear mongering tends to promote. So I'll start with like prostate enlargement. When you look at the current mountain of evidence on trt, remember, TRT brings your testosterone up to what would be considered a high normal. Okay. So it's bringing you within range now, beyond range, like what a bodybuilder will use. All bets are off because we don't have tons of data, long term data around this. So we don't know what the long term effects would necessarily be on a man who's taking, you know, super physiological discs. Yeah. Whose testosterone levels are at 10,000 or something like that. Which, which, which a bodybuilder would definitely hit. Okay. But somebody that's within range, we have lots of data on that. And no, it doesn't. In fact, low testosterone has been more connected to issues of the prostate, like cancer than. Than normal levels of testosterone. In other words, these. The negative health effects of low testosterone are worse than the health effects of being on testosterone replacement therapy. Okay, that being said, it does come with its own risks, precisely because when you're taking testosterone, no matter what your testosterone levels are high in a natural state, your testosterone levels will fluctuate based off of things like sleep. Sleep and stress and over training. So can the risk of injury go up when you're on TRT as a result of that? Yes. Why? Because you're not gonna read the same signs and symptoms. A natural guy is when he's overdoing it in the gym. You may be overdoing in the gym, and you'll get signs and symptoms of that, but you still got this high testosterone. And so it's gonna kind of numb or blunt some of those signals. Like, for example, what may happen with someone on TRT is they just go without sleeping well for longer because they can push through, and the negative effects from the poor sleep still cause health effects. Whereas the guy on low T is gonna be like, I need some sleep. I need some sleep. Because they're getting the. They're getting. They're hearing these signals much more loudly. The proper context and comparison is low testosterone to replacement testosterone, not naturally good, healthy testosterone, testosterone to testosterone replacement. That is not a fair comparison. That would be like me comparing someone on medication for diabetes to someone who doesn't have diabetes. That's not fair. I'd have to compare someone who has diabetes not on medication to someone who's on medication. That's an extreme example, but I think it kind of communicates what we're talking about. So if you're replacing testosterone and you're staying within range and the comparison is to where you were before. Before with low testosterone, you're healthier. You're healthier. There's also this context here, which is hormones can be good or bad depending on the context of someone's life and health. So a man who's got an inflammatory diet doesn't eat exercise, doesn't eat. Right. Can high testosterone levels cause more problems? They can, because in a natural state, that person's testosterone levels would drop. So I think replacement therapy, keeping someone high testosterone, who also otherwise smokes and drinks and doesn't exercise and eats crappy, that might not be a good thing. You know, and I'm speculating here, but I would say that might not be a good Thing. So I think replacement therapy is great if it' sit. If it's in comparison to low testosterone, especially in the context of, like, I'm not doing all these other things, other unhealthy things. I'm trying to stay healthy. And again, the data on this seems to show longer life, but definitely shows a better quality of life as a result.

[Justin Andrews]

I want to talk a little bit more about the potential injuries that happen with somebody who gets on trt in, in my experience, and this is including myself, when you go from somebody who's been at 200, 200 level TR or testosterone, and then you put them on, on, you know, a dose that brings them up to the high level, they typically go, oh, my God, I feel amazing. I feel, I mean, they, it's like life changing for them and so much that they, they start approaching their workouts. Oh, man, I could do more. Boy, last week I felt that more. And it just, they, they, they. It feels so good to be lifting that much more weight and then the next weight. And it's typically that way of approaching the gym that ends up getting them hurt. It's not the testosterone that did it. It's that, that if I would have, if you would have just lifted the way you would be lifting if you didn't have it, you'd build muscle and you wouldn't get hurt. But it's because we get so excited. Including myself of like, man, I'm feeling good and the weight's going up. I got more. I'm starting to feel like I was in my 20s again. I'm not in my 20s, you know, and I can't do that.

[Nicole]

That's exactly me. Yeah, 47 and Vince Preston, you know, 335.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Come on, John.

[Doug Egge]

Watch out.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Come on, John.

[Justin Andrews]

Exactly, John.

[Nicole]

So 800. You know, my, my, my numbers normally range in the 800.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're high, high, normal.

[Justin Andrews]

And that's great. That's great. And I, and again, so in my experience, both personal and training, lots of people that have been on TRT is, it's, it has less to do with, it has nothing to do with the TRT has everything to do with our approach to the programming and how we work out. And so if you just continually remind yourself, yeah, I know I could do 315 right now, but it's probably better for me to do 225 and just slow it down and just, just, you know, get a nice little pump and put re. Rack the weight, knowing I could do four or five more like to have that conversation with yourself, you'll be just fine. But we tend not to. We tend to do what we think we can do. And we. And we keep pushing that until our body goes, nope, you're not supposed to be doing that. So that's probably the greatest challenge.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I've seen more people over train when they get on TRT than people who aren't on TRT because they get on TRT and they suddenly feel good and they're like, cool, I'm going to double my workout volume, volume, and I'm gonna go train my ass off. And they get away with it because their body doesn't lower their testosterone like it normally would. But then it results in all kinds of different problems. And you also want to consider this. Muscles build and strengthen faster than tendons and ligaments do. Tendons and ligaments take longer. So if you suddenly, because you were low testosterone to high Testosterone, you added 75 pounds to your squat in, you know, four months, which is possible from going low T to high T. Well, you can lift it, but you got to give your tendons and ligaments a chance to catch up. So you. So, you know, you got to let your body kind of. You got to slow it down. So this is the risk that we communicate all the time to people who go on testosterone. Especially if you were an athlete when you were younger, you know, you might be like, oh, I used to be able to do this. But like Adam said, like, like, you know, you're not 27, you're 47. So it's, you know, although you feel better, you're still 47. You know, this is why I got to tell myself this all the time.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I just. If I don't. It says that you're pretty new to listening to the podcast. Last year, I did a whole docu series of my comeback of, you know, being kind of sedentary for a while and then watch me come back and I put 20 pounds of muscle on in a month's time, and I documented it on YouTube. And what did I do? I ended up hurting myself because I literally went from starting off at deadlifting, you know, 115 pounds. Within a month, I was doing 300 something. And it's like, because I could, because I felt good. And I'm like, and yet here I am telling you this, that I know better because I've seen it happen. And then I end up pulling my hamstrings. So that is the hardest thing is, is that is knowing that I. I know I can do it. But should I do it? Probably not a good idea right now.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And so that, that's the conversation if you're gonna, if you're going to continue to do it and you know, you already have those tendencies, you know, remind yourself that of, you know, just because I can doesn't mean I should.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. And then another way to put it is always listen to your body. But remember this, one of the signals of your body is not a natural signal. So it becomes a little more difficult to listen to your body because I got this like, no matter what, John, no matter what you do, you could lose sleep for three nights in a row and eat any Twinkies all day long. Your testosterone is 800.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So that signal is a, is not an accurate one. So you just got to be a little bit more aware of that. That's all Right.

[Nicole]

So then, you know, last part of the question, because I do take, you know, bucked up version of rut, is the supplement that's got the ashwagandha. Is that, is that a waste of money for somebody in my situation?

[Justin Andrews]

No, ashwagandha is not a waste of money.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Well, both of them are.

[Justin Andrews]

What about tongue?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Well, they're both adaptogen, so they both have other effects and benefits on the body aside from raising testosterone. I think the raising testosterone part of what they do is more of an adaptogenic effect, meaning it's helping the body adapt to stress. In fact, if you look at the data, they're most effective in men with low testosterone. A guy who has good high testosterone typically doesn't see a change, but I think that's because of the adaptogenic herbs help the body adapt to stress. So in the low testosterone guy, many cases he's under too much stress for whatever reason. And so now that their body's able to handle more stress, testosterone levels tend to rise. Nonetheless, everybody will benefit from the adaptogenic effects of those of those products and herbs. I mean, I still take ashwagandha here and there and I still notice beneficial effects.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Nicole]

All right, well, I certainly appreciate you guys time. You gave me a lot of food for thought. Yeah, you know, I am, am fairly new. I've searched and listened to all the episodes that pertain to HRT or trt, but my wife and I are both plugged into you guys and listen, listen quite frequently even to the level of, of information overload.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Appreciate it.

[Nicole]

Thank you for, for what you do, the content you put out. It's a great show. I'm learning a lot and I appreciate it.

[Justin Andrews]

Love that. Hey, just so you know too, we got a really cool tool. It's called askmindpump.com and it's our AI. So if there's like, specific questions that you haven't found that we've talked about, if you go to askmindpump.com literally type in the question and it'll speak back to you as if it was one of us talking to you. And it'll also link you to episodes where we talk about it in depth.

[Nicole]

Awesome.

[Justin Andrews]

Cool. All right, John.

[Nicole]

Hey, thank you guys. Y' all have a great day.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I've been meaning to talk about this topic.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, no, this is. I'm glad he asked this because we haven't. Maybe we maybe put this down as like a. A tip or like.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Well, I'm going to bring it up because. Because.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, ligaments and tendons, for sure.

[Sal Di Stefano]

There's a reality here. And the reality is that for the performance athlete, although TRT raises testosterone levels within range, in many ways, it is an advantage over the natural athlete because your testosterone won't go down. Now, that also could prove to be a detriment for the reasons that we.

[Doug Egge]

Said as well mass other signals.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And that's it. And that the thing is because becomes harder to read your body. That's what I found for myself. I can get after all the time and feel like Superman. Well, the reality is I have this artificial signal that isn't going to change regardless of what I do. So I gotta. I gotta think about that and realize that.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I would. I would make the case that that is the biggest disadvantage. Yeah, that is the. I mean, when you think about our experience and understanding of that. And yet my dumb ass is still doing it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, that just shows you how, how, how much that like, take the average person who's just absolutely clueless of.

[Doug Egge]

That your body would you get strong quickly too. And so to balance that out is really, you know, that's. That's key. And it's not something you're really focused on.

[Justin Andrews]

No.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Because you can do it.

[Doug Egge]

Because you can do it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Our next caller is Nicole from Florida. Hey, how you doing, Nicole?

[Justin Andrews]

How you doing? Hello.

[Sal Di Stefano]

How can we help you? Good, good, good.

[John]

So, Sal, I know you guys know Tom Conrad, so I work with him at rock recovery director here. So he's the one that kind of helped me to get. Get, you know, in touch with you guys.

[Justin Andrews]

Awesome.

[John]

So I guess I should just go ahead with my question, right?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

Let's hear it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John]

All right. So I've been so I've been yo yoing with my weight for years. So essentially to kind of do Cliff Notes version, I'm struggling with consistency as far as a routine with going to the gym. I recently got off Lexapro after being on it for five years. So that's been a challenge. And so working out, exercising, I've been trying to incorporate that back into my life to kind of offset some of the symptoms I've been feeling from coming off of that. I just struggle with this all or nothing thinking when it comes to working out and just eating. And I've just been my. It's been an ongoing issue for years and I'm frustrated, but I'm also just trying to come up with something that's going to help me kind of stay consistent. That's been my, my biggest issue.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, I love this question.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, I could. I think I know. I think I know the direction to go. First off, I think using exercise as a way to. For some of the reasons why you were using Alexa Pro, which is an SSRI for people don't know, I think is great. I think the data that I know the data supports it tremendously. I also think creatine would be good for you. They're also showing, showing benefits, Enziolytic and antidepressant effects, especially in women from the use of creatine. It's also a great supplement for fitness and health and longevity and muscle. So I would recommend using creatine between 5 to 10 grams a day for those reasons. And you can look it up yourself. Nicole, you have a background in this, so you can actually look up creatine for general depression or, you know, those effects in women. You'll find some cool studies. Okay, so I think I know why the, the root of why this happens for someone like you. And it's just, it's very common. This is super. This is the most common challenge that people have when it comes to fitness. And the root of it is the relationship that you have with both fitness and diet. We have to solve that relationship. Otherwise this is always going to be a struggle. So I'm going to paint the picture of what this relationship tends to look like and then I'll explain why this results in this on, off again kind of cycle. Okay, so I'll create a story. I'll tell you a story. So you have somebody, you have a guy, John, he looks in the mirror and he looks at himself and he goes, oh, man, I'm out of shape or I'm fat or I don't look good. Or whatever. This is terrible. I don't like the way I look. Look, I feel gross. Just lots of negative thoughts. I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm start changing my diet. And so very strong motivation initially. And so he goes to the gym because he hates how he looks. He hates himself, can't stand what has happened. Why did I do this to myself? I got to get better. I got to do this things. I got to be more consistent. And he goes to the gym and the relationship that develops from that is a relationship where the workouts are a punishment because he's hating himself. And so. And now, now, initially, this works great. Yeah, this is a very strong motivator initially. And he's very consistent. In fact, it feels good. It's cathartic to beat himself up initially. He goes to the gym from this initial motivation of self hate. He beats the crap out of himself and he feels accomplished. You know, God, I ate that bad food. I'm gonna go just. I'm gonna go work it off. I'm gonna go sweat it out. And then people ask him, how was that workout? Oh, my God, I barely walked out of the gym. What a great workout. Why does he feel that way? Because he hates himself and the workout is a punishment. Then when he goes for diet, it sounds something like this, hey, would you like some pizza, John? And John says, no, I can't. Hey, John, do you want to have this cookie? No, I can't. Now what's happened here is he's viewing food as something that he restricts. And what has happened is the relationship he's created with food is he has separated himself into this tyrannical parent that says, you can't eat this. You need to eat a different way. And so it's like, I can't, I can't. I can only eat this. I can't. I can't do it. And so it's this restrictive relationship now that works for a short period of time. In fact, people can beat the crap out of themselves for a long time before everything falls apart. And here's what happens when it falls apart. You can't hate yourself forever. You can't punish yourself in the gym forever, and you can't restrict yourself forever. And what it typically looks like is you rebel against this hate, and the rebellion looks like this. I don't have one cookie. I have a whole box of cookies. I don't miss one workout. I'm done. I'm not. I just. I'm done. I can't do it. I'M not going to go and then I'm not going to go, and then I'm not going to. And I don't go for a long time until I build up enough hate to get myself to go again. So that tends to be what happens. So the relationship with exercise is punishment and the relationship with food is restrictive or reward. Now I'm going to give you another scenario. We're going to go back to John. John looks in the mirror and he says, oh, man, I haven't been taking care of myself. I really haven't been taking care of myself. I deserve to be cared for because I'm a person and I think I need to take care of myself. I'm going to go to the gym. Now the gym becomes self care. The workouts are more appropriate. It's not cathartic to beat the crap out of myself. In fact, when I go too hard, I realize I went too hard and I'm not caring for myself. Diet is not restrictive. Diet is self care. So then when somebody comes up to him and says, hey, do you want this pizza? Do you want a cookie? He says, no, thanks, I don't want it. Instead of, I can't. And sometimes he says, yeah, I'll have one. Because balance is baked into self care. That's the only relationship that turns into a long term, consistent relationship with fitness and fitness and exercise. Now, there are people who can hate themselves for the rest of their lives. Those are the orthorexics, Those are the body dysmorphia types. Those are the people that abuse things like anabolic steroids or who starve themselves or who have placed their body on an altar that they worship. And that is not healthy as well.

[John]

Right?

[Sal Di Stefano]

So it has to come from there. Nicole, if you start to try. And this is a relationship. So like all relationships, it requires one work. If you work on this in the right way, then the how can become effective. All right, well, now that I'm caring for myself, what are the most effective ways to exercise for myself? And you're more likely to pick the appropriate ways to do it. The diet also becomes more tailored because you know what's going to happen sometimes. Sometimes you're going to be with your friends. You haven't seen them in a while. You want to connect over some wine or some pizza, or your friend baked you a cake and you'll have a little bit. And it's connecting because food isn't just fuel. It is, but it's also connecting. It's also, you know, being with people on that stuff. So it has to start from that root. Otherwise it's going to always be this on, off again, on off again. So in other words, you can't shame and hate yourself into good health. It just doesn't work.

[Justin Andrews]

Nicole, I want to add to how common this is. It's so common. There's a reason why you hear us communicate the way we do around nutrition to most people that are listening to this podcast, which is we, I don't care what your goal is. When I start somebody out on their journey of tracking food or eating better, we go after things. So instead of restricting and saying, I can't, I can't do that. I shouldn't do that. That makes me fat. It's. My body needs this. I want to build muscle. I want to be strong, I want to feel good. I love when I feel that way. I need this many grams of protein. And I passed on the pizza today because I noticed I was only at 10 grams and I need to get to 130 by the end of the day. So that's the only reason why I'm passing on it, because I need to take care of myself. Less of, I can't because it's going to make me fat. It's no, I need to go get this protein because that's what's going to build my muscle. That's what's going to make me feel better. And so when we talk about nutrition, we always talk about teaching people how to go after certain foods that nourish your body, that take care of your body because you want to take care of yourself. And so that is the way you position it, that conversation, learning to have that with yourself through this process is paramount to the success and consistency.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

If it comes from a place of, I can't, I shouldn't, I'm fat, I'm bad, I'm this. Even if that works temporarily, you, we always know. One of us can always tell when we meet somebody who may even be having success that way, whether they're going to be able to keep going or not. It's like, oh, yeah, this is. The wheels will fall off. Maybe she gets another couple months. Maybe if she's got crazy discipline and she wants to punish herself that bad. But eventually she will rebel from this. Eventually she'll throw her hands up and be like, why am I doing?

[Sal Di Stefano]

And you'll hear people say, why did you go off your diet? Or why did you stop working out? I just want to enjoy life. Well, yeah, you don't want to be in that relationship anymore. You broke up with that abusive relationship. Of course you want to just enjoy your life. But the truth is exercising appropriately and properly and eating in a way that's healthy improves the quality of your life.

[Justin Andrews]

And then I want to add to the. So the nutrition one, I talk about and I want to add about the exercise 1. You'll hear me on the podcast always say the thing where it's like, the goal is to do as little as possible to elicit the most change. So when I go in the gym, I am not seeking out an abusive beating where I'm dying after I worked out and go, oh, that was a good workout. Like, no, it wasn't. I want to get. I want to do just a few things. If I did Nothing last week, one or two exercises in the gym for 15, 20 minutes is more than what I was doing. And it's going to make my body feel good. And I'm going to walk out going like, oh, yeah, I feel good. I could have done more. That's great. That's what I'm looking for. Try and build upon that versus seeking out these crazy punishment type workouts that so many people do.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I'm.

[Justin Andrews]

That's the approach.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So. So in other words, the most important thing that you need to work on is your relationship to exercise and diet. Not the exercise itself or the diet and what I'm eating. It's the relationship. So what does that look like? I'll give you some tangibles. You should feel better after your workout than you did going into it. That only fosters a good relationship. You should start to when you eat, become aware of how you feel before, during, and after so you can get a more complete picture of how this food is serving me. And then here's something else for someone like you, because I see in your notes here that you talk about weight gain and weight loss. Here's a nice segue to get your mind off of that. Don't weigh yourself. You're done with the scale, okay? And I want you just, here's what you're going to pay attention to in the gym because this will serve you better. Now, this isn't the only way you're going to go, go forever, but right now this is going to serve you. Just get stronger. That's all I want you to pay attention to. Am I stronger? If I'm getting stronger, I'm moving in the right direction. Don't weigh yourself. Don't study yourself in the mirror. You can look in the mirror, but don't do the thing where you. You're, you know, you look in the mirror every day, right? Oh, well. Oh, this is not right. Or this isn't this or this isn't that. Like, that's gonna. That's gonna move you. That's gonna move you to the bad relationship. So avoid studying yourself. Get stronger in the gym. I'll send you one of our programs if you don't have one already.

[John]

That would be great.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And work on this relationship. And then here's what it looks like. Nicole, I promise you, this is what it looks like. You're going to become one of those people that enjoys working out like, you just like it. And you're going to become one of those people that eating healthy is actually. I like it. I actually like this. This is. This is enjoyable to me. Me. Because food, again, isn't just the flavor and the experience. That's part of it. That is a real value. But there's so many other values that we ignore because we're so focused on whether it tastes good or whether I'm restricting that we don't even notice all these other values. So what happens is you develop this relationship where balance, like, you know, of course I eat pizza sometimes. Of course I eat these things sometimes. But it's naturally balanced. It's not this, like, I can't do it. It's like, yeah, I think I want that. Or actually, I don't want that right now.

[Justin Andrews]

Now.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And that's what develops over time. By doing this the right way, I.

[Justin Andrews]

Want to add one more layer to how this evolves over time also. So let's pretend you're my client. And the. A week goes by, and we hit our three workouts for the week, and you. You're eating the way we're talking about, and you're. And you have this. Oh, I want to. I want to look at the scale. I want to compare to the mirror. I feel like I'm not making any progress. And part of that is because we are constantly fixated on how we look, look, or what the scale says back to us. And we're actually losing touch with all the other things that taking care of yourself provides. So what it looks like for me, I go, nicole, how'd you sleep? How. How do you feel throughout the day? You know, how did you do on that test? How'd you do at work? How was your work performance? What kind of mood have you been in?

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm wanting you to connect. How does your hair. How does your skin feel? There's so many things that feed. Feeding our body properly and exercising does for us when it comes to all these other benefits. How's your stool? How's your stomach and digestion feel? How does it feel? Do you. If you know what it's like to feel, you know, like digestive issues or bloat and things like that. Like, have you noticed? Like, oh, yeah, you're right, I haven't had that. And oh, wow, you're right, I have slept good and oh, wow, I have been in a good mood and oh, wow, I have been really productive at work and oh, wow, you know, you're helping you make the connections to, to all the other things that taking care of yourself provides you. Because then you start to look at exercises like, oh, it's not just a means to a number on the scale or a shape in the mirror. I do it because it gives me all this other amazing.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You now develop a complete relationship and that's healthy one.

[Justin Andrews]

And then that right there is what will keep you going forever. Because I don't care how ripped and amazing you look in number, you reach on the scale because that's doable. But those people that are focused on that, that reset goal end up realizing like, oh, shit, I'm still unhappy. I still have, I still have a poor relationship. Like, it's not what everyone thinks it is. Everyone thinks it's this look or a number, and it's not. It's like, if you don't find a way to do this, then health and fitness will not be a way of your life the rest of your life. If you do learn how to do this, you'll never stop doing it because you might have periods of time where you're more. You're more aggressive, more motivated and more in a rhythm. Other times you're not. But it'll always be a part of your life because you've connected the dots to all the other things that it provides you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I'll give you two tangibles just because, you know, now we've talked kind of big picture. Let's get specific. I'm going to send you maps 15. That's the program I want you to follow. I want you to try to walk after breakfast, lunch and dinner just for five to ten minutes. That's it. And I want you to try to eat. Eat mostly or all whole natural foods. That's all. So try to avoid foods that come in a box or a wrapper processed. Just, just do that right there while doing all the other stiff stuff that we talked about. And then watch what happens.

[Justin Andrews]

You're not gonna have her target protein right now?

[Sal Di Stefano]

No, not yet. Let's just do that.

[John]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

I.

[John]

You have no idea. Like, my mind is just like. This was like a God moment for me because I'm doing a lot of work on myself right now internally. And like, like I'm just holding back tears because you have no idea how much that resonated. So. Thank you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Your background. I know you work with people in addiction, right?

[John]

I do. What's your background as far as like my. Myself or like my. My credentials?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Credentials.

[John]

I'm a licensed clinical social worker.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah. So I. I bet one of the reasons why what we're saying resonates so much. One of the reasons is because you probably communicate to like this to people who are struggling with lots of other challenges. It's a grace based model and it's the only thing that works. The only other options are I stop and I hate it or I become a body dysmorphic orthorexic, which. We have plenty of those in my space. That's it.

[Justin Andrews]

Everybody ends up here at one point, Nicole. Everybody does. Everybody at one point. Real. And what's wild to Sal's point, Like, I. I mean we talk about this all the time. So many people have no idea. Some of these crazy physiques and bodies that we all.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Some of the most unhealthy people.

[Justin Andrews]

They haven't even reached this point yet. All they have proven is that they can beat themselves up and punish themselves and hate themselves longer than you. Like, that's what they've proven. Many of them, very, very few of them have a really healthy relationship with exercise and food. And what you see is just a manifestation of the abuse.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You see a shell and.

[Justin Andrews]

And it's put on as a facade. And these people are out there coaching and teaching, helping other people. But eventually everybody lands where you're at right now. Eventually you realize, like, this is just not. You can't do this. Like, I'll always be on and off the wagon until I solve this.

[John]

So 100%, it's a. It becomes a match mask. And it's an ego form and defense mechanism. Totally internal stuff that they're not addressing.

[Justin Andrews]

100. 100.

[John]

I've been trying to work from the inside out, so this has been super helpful. I wish I had more time to tell you guys, but I just wanted to let you know. Thank you. Because you have no idea how much this is resonating with me.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Good. Well, you're a friend of Tom's, so if you need anything else, ask him for my phone number. You could text me personally.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Sal Di Stefano]

If you need anything, any other question questions. But we'll send you.

[John]

Thank you so much.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You got it. We'll send you Mass 15 and you guys do really good work out there. Yeah. Really appreciate what you guys do.

[Doug Egge]

You guys do.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank you Nicole.

[John]

Appreciate that so much. Thank you guys.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You got it.

[Justin Andrews]

You have a good one.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Thank you.

[John]

Bye.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, that was good. I, I, I appreciate the opportunities to communicate that because, because you know it's, there's lots of good information that we can give people. The, the ones and zeros and the how and the how not. No, but this is like the nucleus of everything. This is the root.

[Justin Andrews]

This is, this is bro. This is so everybody.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Just you're just a different.

[Doug Egge]

Everybody does come to this point.

[Justin Andrews]

You do. You, you at one point. Including all of ourselves. Right. Are part are in this number or percentage of people like this. That one point you realize the obsessing over the mirror and the scale and, and letting that be the thing that drives you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's a terrible God that will tear tyrannical.

[Justin Andrews]

It will, it always loses. It will always lose. It'll eventually and just some of us are crazy enough to be able to, to fight it or to, to punish ourselves for years.

[Sal Di Stefano]

To serve this tyrannical false God is what happens.

[Justin Andrews]

And, and it's such a freeing thing to unlock this and realize that. Oh my God, when I eat well and when I exercise, it does so many other amazing things.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It enables my life. It is not my Life.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right, 100%. And so I'm excited for, I'm excited for her to go put it to work and stuff like that and see and see what happens.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Our next caller is Danielle from Colorado. Hey Danielle.

[Doug Egge]

Hello.

[Danielle]

Hey, how are you?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Good, how are you? How can we help you?

[Danielle]

Oh, doing well. Thanks for taking my question. I'm excited to be on today. All right, thank you to the podcast for about nine months when my neighbor introduced, introduced me and we started lifting together. I'll tell you a little bit about me and what's been going on with my lifting struggles and hopefully you guys can help me out.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Danielle]

I'm a 40 year old mom with two young girls and I have a passion for fitness and nutrition. We have a really active family. We like to spend a lot of time outdoors and I've been lifting since I was about 16 years old. I've done some progressive overload in the past, but that was really before it was. And so recently in the Last year and a half I've been focusing on progressive overload training and I was using an app for about a year, and then in November I wanted to try some different things and work on different goals. And so my neighbor had Maps aesthetic and I started doing that with her, but that quickly became too much volume for me. And so I went to a four day upper lower split. But I started to develop some tricep pain and quad pain and I think it was just too much on any particular body part per session. So after that I tried Maps 40 and I really liked the first phase, but then the second phase got to be too much volume again and I started to have some shoulder pain. So right now I'm doing a three day full body split with two sets for each of the kind of main compound lifts and then a little bit less for the accessory lifts. My shoulder, my tricep and my quad pain has gotten a lot better, but I'm still having some shoulder pain. So it's been kind of a frustrating six or so months for me because every time I try to push the weight in a particular lift, like a deadlift, I injured my lower back. And then when I tried to push with the squat or the Bulgarian split squats, my quads started having issues. And then with my elbow, I started having pain while doing the bench press. And right now I'm bench pressing the same weight as I'm squatting, which seems kind of weird to me. But really my ultimate goal is right now is to get stronger and I'd like to progress in some body weight movements like pull ups, push ups, pistol squats, caustic squats, those sorts of things. For my workout schedule, I generally have 45 minutes, three to four times a week to lift. And then on my non lifting days, I enjoy other activities with the family like hiking and biking. I play disc golf. But I've been frustrated and feeling lost in the last last five or six months and I just don't know where to go from here in terms of my lifting and how to progress in these lifts. Because every time I increase the weight, I seem to develop some new injury.

[Justin Andrews]

On a typical week because you say, you know, hiking and biking and you do these other disc golf, like what's a typical week like every week? Are you doing one or two of those things? What's it kind of look like? Yeah, probably.

[Danielle]

I try to bike once a week, but that, that is kind of more summer activity. So I'm just kind of getting back into biking and then hiking. We usually do that once a week with the family and maybe disc golf once a week.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

You might just be doing over.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, you're moving in the right direction. So with, with your volume, you notice some improvements by redo. By the way, Maps aesthetic is too much volume for 90% people.

[Doug Egge]

Watch everybody.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, maps 40. You know, maps 40 plus is more appropriate, but it's still on the higher end of, you know, it's still kind of on the higher end. I would say it's appropriate for a lot of people. It's still on the higher end of volume. And when it comes to strength training, you have to find the right dose. Okay. It's not about how much I can do and get away with. It's what's going to get me moving in the right, the right direction. So I think Maps 15 would be a good protocol for you, and I think you'd see some progress. The other thing I'd like to talk about is diet, and I'd like to look there. And sometimes what you see with kind of injury rates going up, there's typically two things. One is, could be poor sleep or inconsistent sleep. That's a very common one. The other one is either protein or fat, or both are too low. So let's start with diet. What does your diet look like?

[Danielle]

So I was in a cut for the last, last, I don't know, 12 to 16 weeks. But I'm not very great at keeping to lower calories. So I was trying to hit 1700 during the cut, but I was probably only consistent with that like 30 to 50% of the time. So I generally, my maintenance is like 22 to 2300 calories. I try to get like 130 grams of protein a day and, and my fat is definitely probably over 70 grams a day.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Good, good. By the way, progressively overloading while you're in a cut is a terrible idea. They don't go well together in a cut. The idea is to maintain. Maintain muscle, which is a great, like, if you lose body fat and maintain muscle, you're doing a great job. Trying to build while in a cut is a. Is a risk, is risky business, and that tends to either result in overtraining or injury or both. What about sleep? How's your sleep?

[Danielle]

Sleep? I probably average maybe seven and a half hours a night. So it's pretty distant or pretty, pretty good. I don't wake up a lot in the night. Occasionally you have those nights. But overall it's pretty good.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And you take a multivitamin. No nutrient deficiencies.

[Danielle]

I don't take a multivitamin, but I eat a mostly whole food diet, so I feel like it's okay. I take some supplements, but I take creatine, but otherwise it's not super consistent with my other supplements supplement.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Now you're in Colorado, which means it snows, so you're probably not outside as much, I would say in the winter. The odds that you are not in optimal levels of vitamin D is relatively high, probably 70%. Now what you could do, what I think would be great is to get your nutrient levels tested, including vitamin D, and then see if you're in those optimal levels, low levels of vitamin D. And I don't mean like super low where you're sick, but just kind of not like suboptimal, maybe slightly below typically feel like pain. Inability to recover from stress, injury pain is a real common one with low vitamin D where you just kind of feel like, ah, why do I, why am I achy? Or why does this hurt so easily? Type of deal. So I would get nutrient levels tested and if you want to take a multivitamin anyway because that can make a difference. But I think map 15, I think the volume maps 15 would be appropriate. And I. And at maintenance calories, I think you'll see nice strength gains with that.

[Justin Andrews]

So disc golf, hiking, biking, lifting, shoulder pain, hurt our back quad injuries. What are our mobility practices look like?

[Danielle]

I try to do mobility once or twice a week. Just kind of like I warm up with some mobility. I have, I think pretty good mobility. I can do a full squat and I don't think I have pretty good ankle mobility. Like I can get into a caustic squat in a full range.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I don't, I don't think it's a mobility issue. I think it's a, it's a. You're too much. Yeah. Because you noticed a lot of your pain went away when you cut the volume down from what you were doing before down to three days a week. So I think, I think you're moving in the right direction. So I think eating around maintenance consistently with a reduction in volume and then stay active everywhere else like you normally do. Get the nutrient levels tested just in case. But in my experience, especially people living in seasonal areas, probably 70% when they would get tested were not were suboptimal like vitamin D. But I think if you just keep your calories around maintenance, follow the lower volume strength training approach, I think you'd see a lot of your issues rectify.

[Danielle]

Okay. And then with Maps 15, I think it's harder for Me to get in to work out 15 to 20 minutes every day versus the three to four days a week. Could I do two days at one time?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, you can combine the days.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, they're designed that way where the order that they are one and two can go together, three and four together, five and six can get together.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And here's the other way you could do it. You could do the workout, the everyday workouts where you're not going to the gym. You could use the suspension trainer version. And then the days you go to the gym, use the barbell version. That's another option.

[Danielle]

Okay. Yeah, I have barbells in my garage, so it's pretty, pretty easy to get to them.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, cool. Well, I mean, it's, it's really, I mean, it's basic free weight movements. If you have a basic setup, you, you should be able to do everything.

[Sam]

Okay.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, we'll send that to you.

[Danielle]

Awesome. Thank you so much.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, you got it. Thanks for calling in.

[Danielle]

All right, thanks. Have a great day.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You too. It just sounds like, because she's like, oh, my pain got better when I cut down my volume. Yeah, I was moving. Let's keep moving in that direction.

[Doug Egge]

Keep going there.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The nutrient deficiency thing is an interesting one, though.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, if she's nutrient deficient, low calorie and then is also pushing when she's in that and then doing as much as she's doing, it gets to be that simple of like, just bump calories, hit those, take your couple, take a couple vitamins, make sure you're balanced out there.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And I want people listening like, oh, you, you know, keep telling people to do less. Most of your workouts, most of your workouts are cruising the. Then you get the 10% where you're sprinting and, and that's what it looks like your whole life. Yeah, this is what it looks like.

[Doug Egge]

You just stress test it occasionally.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's not 90 sprinting. And then when I hurt myself or feel like garbage, I do a 10 cruise. That's going to result in two verbal results for them. And by the way, this is pro, High level athletes train this way. Pro athletes train this way like Olympic athletes train this way.

[Doug Egge]

It's, it's about longevity.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right. And it's, that's how you stay consistent with results and progress and you avoid things like injury and burnout. Is most of the time you're in there and you're kind of cruising and you're staying.

[Justin Andrews]

But I mean, to the, to the idiots that would make that comment to you I, I mean, low back pain, shoulder pain, quad, quad.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And we're also listening to the individual.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I mean, I mean. And is she checked off on the, the mobility? That's why I had to ask it. I'm like. Because the other, only, the only other option of it not being overtraining is that she's got terrible shoulder hip mobility and then she's doing dynamic movements with that. But if she's got a mobility practice, feels like she's like that, then that's it. Then it's got to be that recovery. Yeah, that's it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at mindpump. Justin, I'm at Mind Pump To Stefano Adams at mindpump.

[Adam Schafer]

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