Justin Andrews (3:48)

Yeah. Trying to remember this message. When this, when this switched for me where it did not matter kind of what your your goal was when. When you hired me and meaning even if your main would lose to lose £100.

Sal Destefano (4:05)

Right.

Justin Andrews (4:05)

Really, I began to shift all clients into a reverse diet. Mild bulk no matter what. It just in all pursuits, athletic pursuits, strength pursuits, losing body fat pursuits, and obviously building muscle pursuits. It makes sense, especially if you've been off for a while or haven't trained ever or just getting started in a routine to move in the direction of a small surplus first before doing whatever the goal and that I know for somebody who's probably got a lot of weight to lose, that sounds ridiculous and crazy, but you'll be far more successful doing that than going straight to the cut.

Sal Destefano (4:52)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (4:53)

Which is what I think a lot of people do.

Sal Destefano (4:54)

Well, the term bulk already turns off anybody who doesn't want to get huge. Right. It sounds bad bulk.

Justin Andrews (5:02)

You know, another way of saying Is eat adequate amount of calories to build muscle.

Sal Destefano (5:05)

Yeah.

Adam Schaefer (5:06)

Feed your muscle.

Justin Andrews (5:06)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (5:07)

Actually, we had to change the term to reverse diet for people because what a reverse diet is, is essentially a bulk. We've used terms like mini bulking to make it more palatable for people to maybe adopt and accept building the history of this, I mean, this goes way back. This goes back to, you know, muscle building, bodybuilding, where they go through periods of building and then, you know, trying to get leaner. And so they say, I'm on a. I'm bulking, I'm cutting. And again, the term turns off a lot of people, especially women, and especially anybody who wants to get leaner. If you want to get leaner at all.

Adam Schaefer (5:41)

The last word, not even on your radar.

Sal Destefano (5:43)

No, you don't want to hear, let's go on a bulk. Right. But what a bulk. All a bulk is is a calorie surplus. Anytime you're doing needed to build muscle, you have to. That's the thing. So all you're doing is you're eating more than you're burning with the goal, the intent of building muscle. Now, why would a bulk benefit someone who wants to lose weight? Don't you have to be in a calorie deficit? Well, yeah, you do have to be in a calorie deficit, but the reason why a bulk benefits a deficit is because it helps build the machinery that can cause the deficit to be easier or more easily accomplished. In other words, I'll use another term, and this one's thrown around all over the place. And I know some people don't like it, but essentially you're trying to do is speed up your metabolism, okay? If you have a faster metabolic rate, if you have a body that burns more calories on its own, that makes being in a calorie deficit easier. A lot easier. I mean, if your body's only burning a thousand calories a day, okay, with an extreme case, being in a calorie deficit would mean you'd have to eat less than 1,000 calories if you have a metabolic rate that's burning 4,000 calories a day. On the other end of the extreme, well, anything under 4,000 calories puts you in a deficit. Can you influence your metabolic rate? Yes, you can. And although it's very complex, the most direct way we can do this, the most straightforward way we could do this is through the process. And I say process because it's quite complicated. Metabolism is very complicated. It's not just having more muscle. There's a lot of things that happen through this process of getting stronger and building muscle that actually causes the metabolic rate to get hotter or faster. So everybody benefits from doing this. Now how you do this makes a big difference because you have terms like dirty bulk. This is like, these are like this what I would do when I was a kid, right? I was, I thought I was too skinny. So every time, you know, when I worked out, it was, I just want to get bigger. I could care less about getting leaner. God forbid the scale goes down. I just want to gain. So for me it was every calorie is great, every extra calorie is great. And so if I found high calorie foods, it didn't matter what it was. Junk food, candy, it's all fast food. It didn't even matter. Just eat as much as I could.

Adam Schaefer (8:05)

Cram it in there.

Sal Destefano (8:06)

This is called a dirty bulk. And yes, you could eat in so much of a surplus that there's excessive calories above and beyond what is needed to build muscle, in which case then it gets stored as body fat. But that's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is eating in a calorie surplus with the intent of building strength and muscle, which benefits even those who want to lose weight or get leaner.

Justin Andrews (8:33)

I hate that you have to put so much emphasis on the process and that there's so much more going on there because of the information that people are putting out in the science and fitness community around. You know, the muscle only burns a couple more calories a day. And so it deters the people silly from, from adhering to this, this advice that I think is so, so valuable. It's like there's so much more going on when somebody builds five pounds of muscle on their body than just what it measures in a lab metabolically as far as like how many calories it burns in comparison to body fat. The behaviors that came along with that, the strength throughout your day, the hormone.

Sal Destefano (9:14)

Changes, the hormone changes.

Justin Andrews (9:16)

Now to maintain that muscle that you now do the added activity you probably are because you feel more energetic and better. Like so I to, to make, to try and argue that building muscle doesn't speed the metabolism up as much as you as we talk about is such a terrible argument to try and make. And it, it deters people that are in this position right now. Because if I came across a post like that long term strategy and I'm, I'm the 100 pound client, the client that's over 100 pounds and I heard Sal telling me I should reverse Diet or bulk first and build muscle because it's going to help my metabolism and make this whole process. And then I come across the science kid who's like, well, technically, even if you added 5 pounds muscle, it's only going to burn 20 more calories a day.

Adam Schaefer (10:00)

What are you even doing?

Justin Andrews (10:01)

So it's not as big of a deal as what we make it out to be. It's just a horrible message.

Sal Destefano (10:05)

It's wrong. It's also just wrong. Look, if I didn't have experience, by the way, every coach and trainer who knows what they're doing, who's, who's been doing this for more than five years will tell you this. We've all done this. When I've worked with people and done this properly, everyday people, I'm not talking about genetically gifted athletes or building tons of muscle like I'm talking about Mrs. Johnson who gained six pounds of lean body mass with me, or you know, Mr. Smith, who over a year gained ten pounds of muscle. Right. Routinely would get their metabolic rates to go up between 500, 800 calories. Routinely. Like that was expected. Okay. In some cases much higher. In some cases 1000, 1200 calories, depending how low they were when they were working with me. Meaning we influenced their bodies through strength training and appropriate nutrient intake, which was in a surplus that got their bodies to burn those extra calories on their own. Okay, so how, how much activity would you need to do? Because I, I routinely, like I said, routinely would get people's metabolisms 5 to 800 calories. It was expected. Okay. This is like what I did. If that didn't happen, there was something else going on either hormonally, whatever, but it was pretty, pretty regular, pretty consistent. How much activity would you need to perform to burn 5 to 800 calories? Yeah, it's like two hours of cardio.

Justin Andrews (11:35)

Right?

Sal Destefano (11:36)

Hour and a half, two hours of cardio a day. Which by the way, if you did an hour and a half of cardio hard and let's say you did burn 600 calories doing it, that's not going to last very long because your body adapts to that activity, that physical endurance based activity, and it learns how to burn less calories doing it actually slows your metabolism down to make up the difference. It's different than when you speed up your metabolism. When you speed up your metabolism to burn 600 more calories a day, guess what? You burn extra every day. 600 calories.

Justin Andrews (12:02)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (12:03)

It's a remarkable effective way at producing consistent, sustainable results. So who Benefits from a bulk. Anybody that would benefit from having more strength, more muscle, a faster metabolism and a better hormone profile. So if you're listening to this, and that's you raise your hand and I can pretty much guarantee every single person gotta be. Everybody is raising their hand. Now. Why are people afraid of a bulk? They're afraid of bulking because it doesn't cause. Initially, it doesn't cause a scale to go down. Although it does sometimes. I'll start there for a second. Sometimes the person's body is so desperate for those nutrients, so desperate for appropriate strength training. This, this avatar typically is the overtrained individual who's under 8 for years, chronically underfit. Yes. And then we suddenly have them bump their calories 300, we drop their activity, do a couple days of strength training, and then they're surprised to see that they drop three pounds on the scale. But nonetheless, everybody's afraid of it because. But I want the scale to go down. Like Adam, you're telling me, someone who wants to lose 50 pounds that I got to go through a three month process and you're telling me the scale's not going to move or even possibly go up or maybe go up a few pounds?

Adam Schaefer (13:18)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (13:18)

Screw you, man. I'm hiring somebody else. Work towards my goal. I'm going to go on that liquid diet that says I'm going to lose 15 pounds right out the gate.

Justin Andrews (13:24)

Not to mention the, the psychological warfare that's going on too, that if you're somebody who's overweight like that, and you view yourself through that lens, then any fluctuation of water retention, weight gain, anything is going to be interpreted as I'm getting fatter. This is a terrible strategy. Bail. And so that's also, it's similar to the, of what you and I went through as being the skinny kid, but just the opposite. It was just like, you know, I'm stuffing my face because if all of a sudden I look like the scale went down or I look like I wasn't filled out, then, oh my God, I'm losing muscle.

Sal Destefano (13:55)

In fact, you know, you know what that would do for us. I know you're the same way. It pushed me towards these high sodium bloat inducing foods. Totally. The scale would go up.

Justin Andrews (14:04)

Yes, 100%, which is terrible. So it's, I mean, I get. So. I understand. I just, I have, I had the reverse insecurity. Right. My insecurity was I was too skinny. And so I did things nutritionally that were backwards and wrong, but because of that Because I looked through the lens like that. I looked at myself as I'm always too skinny. And it affected the way people that are overweight do the opposite. They are insecure about being overweight. They view themselves as fat. And so when you tell them to reverse diet, even if it's working the way it's supposed to, the lens at which they view themselves is my waist. It's going bigger. Oh, the way the scale went up, or, oh, I look bloated, or I'm holding one. I mean, everything is interpreted as I'm getting fatter, I got to go the other way.

Sal Destefano (14:49)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (14:49)

Really? Really. I mean, this is. This is why, you know, we talk about hiring a coach so much, because having a professional, they talk you off the ledge who understands this. Even if you're. If you understand program, you understand nutrition. Having another pair of eyes tell you to go, you're fine, you're doing great, stay. The course is so powerful when you are battling with these insecure, deep insecurities, rooted insecurities about how you view yourself, because you will. You'll mind yourself because of the nutritional, because of the sodium water retention on the daily basis, how it fluctuates.

Sal Destefano (15:26)

Well, how did this look for you guys as you started figuring that this out as a coach? Because I can remember distinctly as an early coach, as an early trainer, and I started 1997, I was 18 years old, a lot of energy and passion, but no experience. I had zero experience. All I had was experience training myself, maybe a couple friends, and I had some certifications. And what I thought the approach was that the proper approach to weight loss was I get a client wants to lose weight, we're going to put them in a calorie deficit, and I'm going to try and get them to burn a lot of calories. So it was like cardio circuit training and a calorie deficit right out the gates. That was my approach. I remember the shift. The shift wasn't too long after I first became a trainer. Well, I say not too long. It was probably a few years. But I was a trainer for so long, right? So it was like a couple years, maybe two, three years where I start. I just, I didn't think of it as a bulk. I just wanted my clients to get stronger. And I remember thinking, like, I'm getting these people who are hiring me. I'm putting them in a deficit. I'm having them do all this cardio, all this whatever, and they're not getting stronger in strength training. I want them to get stronger. So what I started to do is. And the reason why this is so important is strength is so beneficial for all physical pursuits. Makes you feel good. You get nice sculpt and shape to your body. Plus, as a trainer, I could objectively show my client progress within the first few weeks. Like, look, you're stronger, and that's really important for motivation. So I was just about getting stronger in the beginning because I knew I could control the workouts. You're seeing me twice a week. The diet, fine, we'll worry about that later. And so my initial approach was, I'm going to help you get stronger. And then later we'll worry about the diet. Not realizing what I was kind of doing was moving in the right direction. It wasn't probably until about seven years. Yeah. Into my career that I said, no, no, no, no, no. We gotta. We gotta build. We gotta build first. That's gonna make fat loss so much easier later on.

Adam Schaefer (17:25)

Yeah. I made the mistake early on of really overemphasizing, like, the calorie burn and also the calories in and just playing that whole math game, which is totally, like, a failing strategy.

Sal Destefano (17:36)

Oh, God.

Adam Schaefer (17:37)

And to see it kind of play out. And I've.

Sal Destefano (17:39)

I've.

Adam Schaefer (17:40)

And the worst part is, like, you get just like your clients, like, you feel this initial success because you're seeing the scale move in the right direction. They're feeling good about their clothes and all this kind of stuff. And then you get to a point where it's just like, well, where do we go from here? And it got really frustrating because, you know, I didn't really have any answers once we got to that position where it was like, we're way too low calories. We're, you know, you can't just cardio your way through any more of this. And so.

Sal Destefano (18:08)

And they stop showing up.

Adam Schaefer (18:09)

They stop showing up. And, yeah, they're frustrated. I put all the work and I'm not there. And so, yeah, reevaluating that and then realizing, you know, to. To really build them up and get them in a better position from the beginning with strength training as the main focus and, you know, reinforcing and feeding, that was so much better.

Sal Destefano (18:27)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (18:27)

Yeah. It probably took seven or eight years. I think, before this came full circle for me, I needed to see enough clients because early on, I just thought they were lying to me.

Sal Destefano (18:36)

Oh.

Justin Andrews (18:37)

So it really. I think what really switched for me was when I actually started to believe I had clients that were 100 pounds or more overweight sitting across from me that were Telling me they were only eating 1300-1500 calories, to the point where I went to houses, made them take pictures when they ate. I mean, I just. And. And it was. It's what they were doing. And I was just. This can't be. Their. Their cupboards look good. She's telling me everything she's eating. This isn't adding up. And I. Then they were already so low that I knew that I can't go any lower than that. And so it just became a. Almost like a health thing for me. It's like, you know what the cutting thing is, and the moving thing is just impossible to go any further that direction. So why don't we just try and build muscle and get you stronger and healthier and then that result. And then what started to happen, which tripped me out, which was we would start to add calories back off the crading, endurance cardio. And then the scale would start to go down. It was like, huh, what's this?

Sal Destefano (19:37)

Magic?

Justin Andrews (19:37)

Yeah. That was, like, bizarre. It just. And I remember this is actually. This is around the time when I think I first started finding content online that I believe Lane was putting out, because he was talking about reverse dieting with his bikini competitors. And so I think I started finding stuff like that related to that type of content and to. To. To help me figure out what I was seeing, because what I was seeing didn't make sense to me. Weird. I was told, you know, everybody was told law thermodynamics. So it's calories in, calories out. This client's only eating this much, get them moving more, cut them less calories. But have you done that to enough people? Especially someone who's really overweight, who's not seeing any results anymore, and they're already down 13, 1500 calories? It's like, this can't be good.

Adam Schaefer (20:21)

And they're miserable.

Sal Destefano (20:22)

There's. There's two points I want to make with this. One is you could follow the Biggest Loser has been on air now for a long time, and you could see the. The documentation of how they lost the weight on the show, which typically involved lots and lots of crazy activity with severe caloric restriction. And where they're left at after the show, where they're left at is they're like, oh, my God, if I eat anything over 1500 calories and I do anything less than hours of activity a day, I start gaining weight. And so the majority of them end up gaining the weight back as a result. But the second point I want to make, which really hurts my heart to think that I. Same thing as you, Adams. I thought they lied. I thought they were lying.

Justin Andrews (21:06)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (21:06)

For years they're not telling me the truth. And this is a message.

Justin Andrews (21:09)

I just punish them in their workout even more. Yeah, we got to go harder.

Sal Destefano (21:12)

Terrible. This is a message to trainers. Here's a message to always believe your clients. Always, always, always believe your clients, even if they're lying. You're better off believing and believing them because you're going to build a better relationship with them. Well, they'll tell you the truth later, even if they're lying. But always believe your clients. You're going to be so much more effective. Because it took me years to start to always believe my clients. I always thought I knew, like, oh, you're not telling me the truth. But the truth is, it doesn't matter. Believe them anyway, because you'll get to a place later where they can tell you the truth. Well, they will tell you the truth, and then you can start to really make some changes. But makes me sad. Same exact thing Adam and I did. The same exact thing. Track this, track that, send me pictures. And then I was like, what is going on here?

Justin Andrews (21:56)

Yeah. I mean, you see enough of it and then you're like, okay, like, that's enough proof for me. It wasn't. I had enough of these 100 pound overweight clients showing me what they were eating that it just. It no longer mathed anymore. And I said, okay, there's something going on outside of the law. Thermodynamics.

Sal Destefano (22:12)

You know where you're seeing this GLP1 people.

Justin Andrews (22:14)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (22:14)

Who lose a lot of weight with.

Adam Schaefer (22:16)

The GLP1 quickly because of. Yeah.

Sal Destefano (22:18)

And they plateau.

Adam Schaefer (22:18)

What's happening?

Sal Destefano (22:19)

And it's like, oh, I got another 40 pounds to lose. I'm only eating 1200 calories. In fact, I can't eat more than 1200 calories because this GLP one makes me so adverse to food. What do I do now? My doctor said raise my dose. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's reverse diet. You build some of that machinery getting stronger and building muscle makes all the rest easier. I don't care what your goal is. I don't care. So this is why everybody should try this out. And especially if you never do this, if this is the scariest thing to you and you've never done it, you'll benefit the most from doing something like this.

Justin Andrews (22:50)

It's actually so much easier. You feel better while you're doing it. I mean, cutting calories and just strictly cutting Calories and moving more and white knuckling. The temptation is just and some people got it. Some people have got that discipline that they can just chew gum, you know, think about something else like for months and they get there and you know kudos to those people that can do that. But most people can't do that and it's not, it's not worth, it's not worth it. So they end up going back the other way this way where you are actually eating. And that really how it started for me was just like I, I want to stop restricting and just let's just agree to eat from this, these list of foods and I'd put together like.

Sal Destefano (23:30)

A list of let's get healthy.

Justin Andrews (23:31)

Yeah. And so I and I start saying like hey when you're hungry eat. But I want you to eat from these foods. Just that's what we're going to do. So let's no more of this like restricting, cutting calories. Eat just stay within these parameters. If you're hungry, go eat again. I don't care. Show up, make sure we lift weights. Let's get strong. And it's like then all of a sudden you magic oh you started to see a turn and it, and it turned hard and fast. It wasn't like I noticed a couple clients got somewhat results. It was like profound what I was seeing. And then paradigm shift then it became a point where I'm like oh I'm not even. I'm actually I rarely cutting calories like especially like extreme cuts like that to me is like a, a short term strategy in, in the, the bulk of someone's program. Like if it's like I'm really Gonna cut you 500000 calories it's only for short burst to get us to drop a little bit like this. Overall I think hovering more around a maintenance to a surplus. If somebody is strength training making good food choices is a much better strategy long term to get anybody to lose.

Sal Destefano (24:32)

Any AM People, you know get more detailed. When people stick to whole natural foods hit their target body weight and protein, eat it first, strength train, try to get stronger, listen to their appetite and kind of stay within those parameters. Their body naturally puts them in that kind of maintenance. Slight cut, slight bulk, sometimes a little more sometimes. And what ends up happening is over time, over time men tend to fall around 13 to 16% body fat generally now genetics will make that can go up or down from there but generally speaking so they fall eventually and women tend to fall in the low 20s body fat percentage without Doing anything else.

Justin Andrews (25:12)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (25:13)

Without doing anything else. And look, when I got this right with clients, this is what people would say. I don't know how this is working. I feel like I'm barely doing anything.

Justin Andrews (25:22)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (25:22)

And I'm just getting easy. And that's how you know, it's not like you're feeling. Fighting your body's physiology. You're working with it, and that's how you know things are working. Huge difference. Anyway, I got to tell you guys about. So I started, I added. I've been adding the green juice into my daily supplements, and every time I do it feel good. Yeah. I'm like, why did I stop? You know why? Because it's not like this crazy stimulant or something. And you. So you kind of take it for granted when you're using it.

Justin Andrews (25:49)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (25:49)

Yeah. But when I use it regularly, I feel this is gonna be a silly term. I just feel healthier. Yeah. I just feel better.

Justin Andrews (25:56)

I mean, obviously, ashwagandha, you've always touted.

Sal Destefano (25:59)

Like, how it's the micronutrients too.

Justin Andrews (26:01)

It is that.

Sal Destefano (26:02)

Yeah, dude.

Justin Andrews (26:02)

Because there's more than just ox.

Sal Destefano (26:03)

There's these phytonutrients that are in there because of the way it's broken up. They're. They're more bioavailable. It's got all these wonderful greens in there, and it's just. I. You know, I could definitely feel a deficiency. Yeah.

Adam Schaefer (26:16)

It's almost like I'm lacking those things. You, like, sponge it up.

Sal Destefano (26:19)

I'm lacking them. Yeah. And it just feels.

Justin Andrews (26:21)

Do you think there's also a little bit of a feedback, like a quick feedback loop? Because you're. You're drinking it like that, you feel it pretty quick. Versus if you were to eat something and consume it or try and get all those vitamins and minerals through different foods throughout the day.

Sal Destefano (26:32)

Well, there's.

Justin Andrews (26:33)

There's concentrated in one hit.

Sal Destefano (26:34)

Yeah. But I don't think. It's not the vitamins and minerals. There's phytonutrients that have benefits, health benefits that you only get from. From plants.

Adam Schaefer (26:44)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (26:45)

Now, the problem with consuming a lot of plants is their bioavailability. Well, cooked vegetables, you. They're more bioavailable than, like, raw, for example, even though there was this, like, whole movement for raw vegetables, which was hard to digest. Yeah. But the. The green juice is. I mean, it's. Everything's broken down into a powder. So when you drink it, you're. It's all bioavailable, highly concentrated.

Adam Schaefer (27:09)

So. Yeah. It's funny because, I mean, Courtney left for a few days over the weekend and like I'm, you know, I tend to just go out and pick up food for the boys and me just to like make it easier. And you know, I don't realize how much plants and things like from farmer Tom. This is like our CSA that we get how she includes it like every single meal. And like, you know, even in our, our meat dishes and things, she's like incorporate incorporating a lot of these phytonutrients. You feel that huge drop off. And so yeah, I had to like take some green juice to supplement because I'm like, I'm not eating my vegetables at all.

Sal Destefano (27:49)

How'd you. So the. What do you guys think about the idea that our, our social media crew had for the dead hang contest?

Justin Andrews (27:57)

Stupid. Stupid.

Adam Schaefer (27:59)

Yeah, not terrible. I take a big L for that.

Justin Andrews (28:02)

I knew I was gonna get crushed on that because I. So I think they, they must have saw the same clip that I saw.

Sal Destefano (28:08)

It was, it was Peter.

Justin Andrews (28:09)

Yeah, Peter. Tia was talking to somebody and he made, he made this statement that I was like, no way that a two minute hang is something that the average 40 year old should be able to do. I'm like, I do that a lot of times. Just kind of to warm up. I'll just hang there for a little bit.

Adam Schaefer (28:24)

They're like £150. Yeah, sure.

Justin Andrews (28:26)

And, and, and I know I, I don't like, I'm not like being competitive out, but I try and hang up there for as long as I can.

Adam Schaefer (28:31)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (28:32)

And when I do, it's like 30 seconds. Yeah.

Adam Schaefer (28:34)

I just do the stretch and I'm.

Justin Andrews (28:36)

Like maybe a minute, two minutes. Hell no. I knew I couldn't do that, so. And I'm like, I mean, I know I'm not peak strong me, but I'm not weak. You know, saying I'm not like, I'm not like that. So I don't, I'm not a fan of that as a, a proxy for strength or health because I know that that's. Now I think that there's got to be a, a weight factor that plays a role in that too. Of course that's going to be.

Adam Schaefer (29:01)

Well, it's an endurance too. It's not like crushing grip strengths. Completely different beast.

Sal Destefano (29:07)

It is, but you're right.

Justin Andrews (29:08)

So, yeah, I was not a fan. I knew, I knew I was gonna get my ass kicked.

Sal Destefano (29:11)

Well, look, you get a guy like HAP4 who is a giant man, who's the world's strongest man. In many, many regards. Yeah, he's not gonna hang on a bar as long as a 15 year old female gymnast.

Justin Andrews (29:23)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (29:26)

No, no.

Justin Andrews (29:26)

She'll hang on one hand or two fingers for long.

Sal Destefano (29:29)

Right. So no, but you know, hanging is a good exercise. The grip strength is a proxy for overall body strength. But there's a lot of ways to measure.

Justin Andrews (29:39)

I mean so like my kids could.

Adam Schaefer (29:41)

Hang there for like five minutes but.

Justin Andrews (29:43)

Not like, I mean I just want to make. But you guys, I want to make that clear. I'm salty about it. Of course we are.

Sal Destefano (29:50)

Of course. Of course.

Justin Andrews (29:52)

But I knew it going into it, I was like, nah, bullshit. I already, I already know this is bullshit.

Sal Destefano (29:55)

I don't even.

Adam Schaefer (29:56)

Yeah, dude. I mean I'll do pull ups but like I don't.

Justin Andrews (29:59)

And I want to make that clear that I don't think that. I think it's. I, I like to prime that way. I think I, I love to hang there to get your shoulders all kind of woken up stretched a lot. Like it feels good to do that. I'm pro doing that for sure. But when he did made that statement, I'm like. And like the next day I was just want to see him like, no way I can hold that for two minutes.

Sal Destefano (30:16)

Well, we, yeah, we did it. It was fun. Doug beat all of us.

Justin Andrews (30:20)

Yes.

Sal Destefano (30:22)

I was close, but I was. I mean we got some trainers in here.

Adam Schaefer (30:26)

I know.

Sal Destefano (30:27)

Female train.

Justin Andrews (30:28)

We got smoked by all our.

Sal Destefano (30:29)

Yeah. Alyssa. So I did. I barely missed two minutes. Doug did like 2:18. I think it was 2 minutes and 18 seconds. Like that. Yeah. Alyssa, she's like 3 minutes and 30 seconds. We were all like, what dude? Yeah, dude. Like oh my God. She does powerless.

Justin Andrews (30:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sal Destefano (30:46)

So. But it was. I think it's fun.

Justin Andrews (30:48)

I think a Will, all them. They all did.

Sal Destefano (30:50)

Will was first. He was like three. He got the highest.

Justin Andrews (30:53)

Oh, he was the highest.

Sal Destefano (30:54)

Highest. Yeah.

Justin Andrews (30:55)

Oh, so he was over.

Sal Destefano (30:56)

Over her.

Adam Schaefer (30:57)

Kyle, I have a few challenges. I want to push on them next. That's all. You want to do that to me?

Justin Andrews (31:05)

Bottoms up, kettlebell press.

Adam Schaefer (31:08)

Just throw that one at me. Make me look like a little.

Sal Destefano (31:11)

It's fine, dude.

Justin Andrews (31:12)

It's fine. It's coming for you. I mean you didn't come in last. I came in last, so at least you didn't come in last.

Adam Schaefer (31:17)

Yeah, but come on.

Sal Destefano (31:18)

Who here, who in the room handles losing the worst? That's Justin for sure. I don't like all of us don't do well.

Justin Andrews (31:27)

I would say I don't do very.

Sal Destefano (31:28)

Good you don't either. Justin gets mad, and if. Anytime we bring this up for the next 10 years.

Justin Andrews (31:33)

Yeah, right.

Sal Destefano (31:33)

He's gonna get mad about it.

Justin Andrews (31:34)

I know. Yeah, we've actually. A long time ago. I don't remember everybody's answers. A long time ago. We talked about this. Do you hate losing more or do you like winning more? So which one is more powerful but motivated more? So you hate losing more? So I, I like to win more. So I, I, So you're right. So he would be the. The worst loser in that situation.

Sal Destefano (31:55)

I'm not a highly competitive person. I really. I don't think I. I'm competitive, but I'm not highly competitive. Yeah, you're lame.

Justin Andrews (32:02)

Doug, do you hate losing more or do you like winning more?

Doug (32:05)

It's a good question.

Justin Andrews (32:06)

It is.

Doug (32:07)

It depends on the situation.

Justin Andrews (32:09)

Oh, really?

Doug (32:09)

Well, I mean, like the dead hang thing, you know, I, I thought I did great up until I didn't. When all the younger people.

Justin Andrews (32:18)

Yeah, but did you. Okay, so great example. Did you care because you went last.

Doug (32:21)

I did care about winning.

Justin Andrews (32:23)

I was gonna say I cared about.

Doug (32:24)

Winning against you guys.

Justin Andrews (32:25)

Okay. Yeah. So were you more motivated to beat us?

Doug (32:27)

However, I was kind of resigned when all these younger trainers got up there and kicked my ass. So.

Sal Destefano (32:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doug (32:33)

So I didn't really take that too hard.

Sal Destefano (32:35)

It's so funny how mad everybody gets.

Justin Andrews (32:38)

I know. I mean, I don't like losing, but it actually doesn't bother me. I. I like to win way more. Winning just is my favorite.

Sal Destefano (32:46)

My favorite compet. Like, I get competitive with, like, if I have a team, like our team, then I get real competitive and want that, like, whole thing. Personally, I'm not highly. I guess I can get competitive some with some stuff, but I don't get too bothered as to whether or not I win or lose necessarily.

Adam Schaefer (33:07)

I guess. Yeah, I guess the two. For me, it's like the impromptu stuff where you don't train for it, you.

Sal Destefano (33:12)

Know, I wasn't ready.

Adam Schaefer (33:14)

I don't like that dude.

Justin Andrews (33:15)

I mean, the more you talk, you just. You solidify your point. You just don't like to lose.

Sal Destefano (33:21)

Years ago, years ago, I don't remember where we were in Austin, there was a punching machine and Justin and I went to hit it and he's still mess up again. See, he gets so. Well, I remember because I know Justin's competitor and like, to all. All credit, Justin went the highest. In sports. You have to have that level of like, that's a part of who you are.

Justin Andrews (33:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Sal Destefano (33:40)

By the way tons of integrity. So he's not like so competitive that he cheats. He's very, very honest, but. No, very honest. So the incredible integrity. But I remember we did that and I, and I saw Justin's night got ruined. He got really mad about it. And I remember like being like, I thought we're gonna have, I thought it was fun, you know, we're gonna have some fun, you know. And he actually got like really upset about it. I was like, oh no, I should have done. I should have.

Adam Schaefer (34:04)

Wish I wasn't like, that's hard, dude. I can't like shake it. So sometimes.

Justin Andrews (34:07)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just.

Doug (34:09)

I think the worst thing is when you think you should win and you don't.

Justin Andrews (34:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Know that's. Well, that was the race car.

Sal Destefano (34:17)

I know.

Justin Andrews (34:18)

I mean that one that you're pro. Okay. So in that situation that something like that really bothers.

Sal Destefano (34:23)

Cuz you were like, oh, I'm going to win.

Justin Andrews (34:24)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's nothing worse than like being overly confident about something and then getting humbled like that. That's like more like, oh, have you.

Sal Destefano (34:33)

So I know you've told this story, Justin. When you went D1 and the first time you went up against like those guys. Oh yeah, I had that experience in, in Brazilian jiu jitsu at one point. I was like pretty good. I thought it was awesome. I was like a good gym guy. I could hang with a lot of people.

Adam Schaefer (34:48)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (34:49)

And these dudes visited from Brazil and there was this black belt that came and yeah, he was a higher ranked than me. But at that point I could hang with black belts in my local community. So I could hang with them. Meaning they'd have to try hard to get me. This dude. I was a child. It was, it was, it was so humbling. Yeah. He was so much better than me.

Justin Andrews (35:10)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (35:10)

That he was telling me what he was gonna do and he was having fun with it and I was, I got to the point where I was like, I get. I just started laughing because I was like, this is, this is silly. Yeah. He could take my lunch money and he could, he could just violate me. There's nothing I could do about it.

Justin Andrews (35:25)

Yeah, I know.

Sal Destefano (35:27)

It's crazy.

Adam Schaefer (35:27)

It's frustrating.

Sal Destefano (35:28)

Yeah.

Adam Schaefer (35:28)

Like I, I had many moments like that playing football. Especially where it was just like I would literally put 100 effort into a play. Like as hard as I could possibly hit somebody and then just get flattened because this guy, you know.

Justin Andrews (35:45)

Yeah.

Adam Schaefer (35:46)

He was heavier but like I'VE been able to hold my own to the point where it's like they have, genetically they're just faster and bigger and have all these factors and you just are like, oh, okay.

Justin Andrews (35:58)

I guess levels to this.

Adam Schaefer (35:58)

I guess I'm just gonna.

Sal Destefano (35:59)

Dude, speaking of levels, I, so I've brought her up before on the show. Doug, I just sent a picture to the group. If you could show the fellas. This woman, Abby Stockton, was a female who lifted weights in the 1940s. Okay. Look at her physique. This is the 1940s, by the way. By the way. That is 135 pounds.

Justin Andrews (36:24)

That's 130. Are you sure?

Sal Destefano (36:25)

Yes, it is 135 pounds. She was under 100 pounds. She was a tiny woman and she, great physique and she. I'll send another one, Doug. She was part, she would hang out with those like kind of golden era. Not golden, it's even before bronze era. Ish. Maybe silver era bodybuilders. And she would lift weights with them and work out. And look at this next photo I just sent you, Doug.

Adam Schaefer (36:49)

Time, strength actually.

Sal Destefano (36:50)

And she, I, I, she needs to be more popular for current women who are trying to build physiques because this was the 1940s when if you were anywhere but the kitchen, you would get chastised. And here she was lifting weights, having a great physique and 135 pound, one arm overhead press. Look at her physique here. Great, right?

Justin Andrews (37:12)

Yeah, incredible.

Sal Destefano (37:13)

Isn't that amazing? 40s right here, this 1940s.

Justin Andrews (37:16)

She's smoking.

Sal Destefano (37:17)

Isn't that great?

Adam Schaefer (37:17)

Yeah, totally.

Sal Destefano (37:18)

And think about all the, all of.

Justin Andrews (37:20)

The, did she compete? Was there, was she doing competitions and stuff?

Sal Destefano (37:24)

Because they didn't exist for women.

Justin Andrews (37:25)

Wow.

Sal Destefano (37:25)

So she would travel. She would just do these.

Justin Andrews (37:28)

How'd you know of her?

Sal Destefano (37:29)

She's famous.

Adam Schaefer (37:30)

She's crazy. That was your grandma? Yeah.

Sal Destefano (37:31)

Oh, how awesome would that be?

Adam Schaefer (37:33)

Yeah, yeah.

Sal Destefano (37:33)

Grandma.

Justin Andrews (37:35)

How would you, how did you even find her?

Sal Destefano (37:37)

So when you read up on like old time athletes, the 1940s was when bodybuilding started to really develop.

Justin Andrews (37:45)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (37:45)

If you look up like women at that era, she's the only one that really comes up. And they called her nickname was Pudgy, which is funny because she's lean. Yeah. She was tiny and just incredibly strong and built.

Justin Andrews (37:58)

Why does it say cheese? Bummer. What is that?

Adam Schaefer (37:59)

Oh, that's just from notes, I think.

Justin Andrews (38:01)

Oh, I was so confused by why, why that was. Next.

Sal Destefano (38:07)

Anyway. How awesome is that? It's super, isn't that great. I would love to popularize her for, for women today. Because by the way, this is before steroids, this is before supplements. She had a full time, you know, she, she. I don't know if she was a mom, but I think she was, I think she had to take care of. And here she was working out a few days a week developing this credible physique and she was strong.

Justin Andrews (38:27)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (38:28)

As heck.

Adam Schaefer (38:28)

I wish I remember the page. But they, they have a lot of these historical lifters that they promote on there all the time.

Sal Destefano (38:35)

Another guy I want to talk about is Paul Anderson. You guys know who he is, right? Paul Anderson.

Justin Andrews (38:38)

Show the picture.

Sal Destefano (38:39)

One of the greatest strength athletes. Doug can look him up if you want to type them up. Paul Anderson, one of the greatest weightlifting legends of all time. He was 5 9. He was so strong in those days that people just had no idea how this guy even was human.

Adam Schaefer (38:57)

Again with the wheels. The big huge.

Sal Destefano (39:00)

The Russians called him the wonder of.

Adam Schaefer (39:02)

Nature because he squatted with these freaking.

Sal Destefano (39:06)

So back wagon wheels.

Justin Andrews (39:09)

That's him.

Sal Destefano (39:09)

That's Paul.

Justin Andrews (39:10)

That's a famous picture.

Sal Destefano (39:12)

He would do squats in his farmhouse while drinking whole milk. His legs so strong. So trip off this, Doug. See when he competed, what years were those that he was competing? Does it say, was it the 1940s? 50s? 55. Okay. Mid-50s. Okay. So trip off this. The world record clean and jerk in 1960 was Olympic gold medalist Yuri Vlasov who did 436 pounds. So this is a clean and jerk. And by the way, their technique back then was not as good as it is today. Yeah, Paul cleaned and pressed. He didn't jerk. He pressed 440. Wow. He squatted. By the way, this was before they wore like belts and wraps. 900 pounds.

Justin Andrews (39:58)

Wow.

Sal Destefano (39:58)

He had a bench press of 615 and an 800 pound deadlift.

Justin Andrews (40:02)

Wow.

Adam Schaefer (40:02)

Isn't that incredible monster.

Sal Destefano (40:04)

It's so wild that these, you know, back.

Justin Andrews (40:05)

Well, it just, it also highlights too because this is all before all these crazy steroids and things. Taking that how much the percentage of the, the you see these crazy feats of strength is genetics.

Sal Destefano (40:16)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (40:16)

I mean we just saw like a world record again or I think just got broken again. Right on deadlifting for like 1100 pounds. But I mean that's. You're talking about 50, 70 years later. It's not like even with all the science wraps and everything. Yeah. All the gear, all the drugs possible and you know, he's not that far behind. I mean that's.

Sal Destefano (40:34)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (40:35)

Highlights how much The. The genetic factor.

Sal Destefano (40:38)

You know, what I think about when I read about stuff like this is, like, throughout, you know, like, the ancient world, how many genetic anomalies we don't even know about, you know, that you just. That there were.

Justin Andrews (40:48)

Yeah. That didn't act like a soldier. Didn't formally compete or anything like that.

Sal Destefano (40:51)

No, it's just a dude that just fought, you know, in five different wars and killed 150, you know, I mean, nobody could touch him, you know, whatever. It's just crazy. It's really. I love reading about that. Crazy about that kind of stuff, you.

Justin Andrews (41:01)

Know, especially, like, feats of strength and fighting and all those things. You. I am. I am looking forward to this UFC fight on the White House long. I cannot believe that is going down. That is crazy.

Sal Destefano (41:15)

That's such poor.

Adam Schaefer (41:16)

It is kind of.

Justin Andrews (41:16)

Why do you think it's poor? You think it's poor taste?

Sal Destefano (41:18)

It is, bro.

Justin Andrews (41:19)

It's kind of brilliant, actually.

Sal Destefano (41:20)

Yeah, I know what he's doing, but it's.

Adam Schaefer (41:21)

I mean, the card is so stacked.

Justin Andrews (41:24)

Oh, it's so stacked, man. It's incredible.

Sal Destefano (41:26)

This is. That this harks back to, like, Coliseum. Distract people with fights, you know, bread and circuses. Like, what are you doing?

Adam Schaefer (41:35)

It feels like that was it Commodus, you know, in the Gladiator. It almost feels like.

Justin Andrews (41:40)

I hope so.

Sal Destefano (41:40)

I don't know.

Justin Andrews (41:42)

I don't. I actually don't interpret it that way. I actually interpret it as Trump has really figured out his core demographic, and it fits UFC crowd perfectly.

Sal Destefano (41:52)

You're right.

Justin Andrews (41:52)

And so it's just. I'm gonna lean into that. So I don't. I don't. There's so many more things going on with social media.

Sal Destefano (41:58)

It's not politics.

Justin Andrews (41:59)

The. Today's Coliseum, in my opinion, is not sports and fighting anymore. It's social media.

Sal Destefano (42:05)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (42:06)

So today's Coliseum, or the way government used Coliseum back in the day. Social media propaganda. I. So when I see this fight on the lawn, I don't see that. I see this is my core audience. There's probably no other sport that has my core audience more than that. I'm going to lean on it 100%.

Sal Destefano (42:23)

I agree with you 100%. It's smart politics. It's Portage. Yeah. It's like, oh, in front of the White House, we're gonna do this and have a UFC event? I don't know. It's just of all.

Justin Andrews (42:34)

I mean, come on.

Sal Destefano (42:35)

It turns me off.

Justin Andrews (42:35)

I'm not. I mean, I'm for sure probably the least political of Us. I. I don't even. It's not that big. It's cool.

Sal Destefano (42:41)

It's smart politics.

Justin Andrews (42:42)

Yeah, it's smart. It's. I don't know. Of all the distasteful thing that politicians do. It's. It doesn't. Wouldn't even scratch.

Sal Destefano (42:48)

That's another good point. They do a lot of. All right, all right, you got me, right?

Justin Andrews (42:55)

I mean, this is a good fight dog.

Sal Destefano (42:57)

In the context, it's a. It's. You're right. It's fair. There's rules. You're right. You know, it's like in the context of what politicians do.

Justin Andrews (43:03)

Oh, it's a lot greasier. Shittier things that they. They could do. And. Yeah, it's. It's clever. It's smart what he's doing. I'm just like, what Justin said. I'm like, I'm pumped about the card. I haven't seen a card. Yeah, it's even better than that. What was the. What was it?

Adam Schaefer (43:17)

Jon Jones made it back, so he's.

Justin Andrews (43:19)

Going to be now. Yeah, the lineup.

Sal Destefano (43:20)

Is he gonna fight?

Justin Andrews (43:21)

Yeah, yeah. No, they're like, look at the. Pull up the line. White House UFC card. Look at this line.

Sal Destefano (43:26)

You guys know Conor McGregor? Isn't he running for president?

Adam Schaefer (43:28)

Yeah, Ireland.

Justin Andrews (43:29)

He's gonna fight, too. He's on the card also. Yeah, he's on the card. No, the card is insane.

Sal Destefano (43:34)

That'd be cool.

Adam Schaefer (43:35)

Like, I mean, I don't know what kind of chances he has if he's super popular. President. Yeah, he is popular, but I would.

Justin Andrews (43:42)

Think he has a hell of a chance. Don't you?

Adam Schaefer (43:43)

I would. I hope so. I. I mean, I don't really know his.

Justin Andrews (43:47)

I don't know. I don't know his political stance, bro.

Sal Destefano (43:49)

We're moving towards idiocracy so fast. Oh, 100.

Adam Schaefer (43:52)

I mean, this is all sponsored by Brondo.

Sal Destefano (43:55)

Everybody watch that movie. I mean, it'll be.

Justin Andrews (43:57)

It's so crazy how accurate politics are this close to wwe, dude. I mean, it's like this close to the same. Same type of show.

Sal Destefano (44:04)

You know, I, you know. You know, I, you know, I used to. You know who.

Justin Andrews (44:07)

Really? You could. You couldn't Google the White House card.

Adam Schaefer (44:11)

Now we got to do is get, like, you know, governors to fight in there. It's just like one of the rumored matches.

Sal Destefano (44:17)

These are rumored.

Justin Andrews (44:17)

Okay.

Doug (44:18)

Jon Jones, Tom Aspinall.

Justin Andrews (44:20)

Yeah, that's the guy who everyone's saying that he's been ducking because Tom's been crushing everybody. That's like the only person they think that could be Jon Jones.

Adam Schaefer (44:29)

I talked to Dana White about getting, like, Desantis and. And Newsom to duke it out.

Justin Andrews (44:35)

Now that would be cool.

Adam Schaefer (44:35)

That would be fun.

Sal Destefano (44:37)

I would love to see that. So now you're talking, Justin.

Adam Schaefer (44:39)

I'm go.

Sal Destefano (44:39)

I'm.

Adam Schaefer (44:40)

I'm for sure going.

Justin Andrews (44:41)

You know.

Sal Destefano (44:41)

You know who ruined combat sports for me? It's when I trained. I trained a bunch of doctors, surgeons, and I had this one buddy of mine, Mike, and he's phenomenal. Very intelligent guy. We'd have all these great conversations. And he explained to me brain trauma so well, and what happens when you get in the head? What happens the brain, what happens later? And he just. We had these great conversations about it over weeks because I kept asking him questions, and then. And then it ruined it for me. Now when I watch fights, I see someone get hit. I just think of all the stuff.

Justin Andrews (45:13)

I mean, isn't football and football and boxing way worse?

Sal Destefano (45:17)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Justin Andrews (45:18)

So, I mean, this is a volume.

Sal Destefano (45:20)

You know, what they're showing too, also has impacts on future cognitive performance. Soccer.

Justin Andrews (45:27)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Headbutting the ball is like super bad.

Sal Destefano (45:31)

Soccer, football, sports. I know. I mean, I also get the whole, like, what are you gonna do with sports? Yeah, like, let's.

Adam Schaefer (45:37)

I'm over it. Yeah.

Justin Andrews (45:38)

I mean, I've always thought that's. That's why you get paid so much. You do something that's elite, dangerous.

Adam Schaefer (45:44)

Speaking of Jon Jones over sensationalized.

Sal Destefano (45:46)

You guys just reminded me of this crazy post I saw. Let's see if I saved it, because Jon Jones made me think of this. Did you guys know you ready for this? Researchers from King's College of London and the University of Suffolk uncovered a starting discovery in England's waterways. You ready for this? Every freshwater shrimp tested was found to contain trace amounts of cocaine.

Justin Andrews (46:13)

Oh, say that again. What?

Sal Destefano (46:15)

Okay, so researchers studying shrimp. Freshwater shrimp in England's waterways. Okay, okay. Studied them all. Every single one was found to have trace amounts of cocaine in them.

Adam Schaefer (46:29)

Is this like a major problem? I didn't hear about, like, cocaine being a big deal out there.

Sal Destefano (46:35)

I. I don't know.

Justin Andrews (46:36)

I mean, are people dumping it? I was gonna say, is that in, like a normal pathway where you would transfer trafficking.

Sal Destefano (46:42)

I don't know.

Justin Andrews (46:44)

Why.

Sal Destefano (46:44)

Why shrimp of all shrimp are bottom feeders, dude. Yeah, they. They eat all the garbage. Same thing with clams and mustard.

Adam Schaefer (46:50)

I thought you're gonna say, like, every.

Justin Andrews (46:51)

One of them had traces of cocaine.

Sal Destefano (46:53)

Every one of them had traces of cocaine.

Justin Andrews (46:55)

Wow. You would Think that would be, like, a market for, like, the shrimp over there would be, like, really expensive. It's like an extra $5 a pound. You know what I'm saying? For that shrimp.

Sal Destefano (47:03)

Get some popcorn.

Justin Andrews (47:04)

Why is that so expensive?

Adam Schaefer (47:04)

Oh, it's grill.

Sal Destefano (47:08)

Eat the shrimp. See how you feel afterwards. I know. I thought that was funny.

Justin Andrews (47:10)

That is hilarious.

Sal Destefano (47:12)

So I thought of the cocaine.

Justin Andrews (47:13)

Oh, I was like. I was a great, great segue. Right.

Sal Destefano (47:16)

Sorry. Sorry. Anyway, speaking of drugs. Oh, you're gonna move to real rock right now. Great. This is all perfect.

Justin Andrews (47:25)

Terrible.

Sal Destefano (47:26)

Hey, I got it. I got a. Well, you guys, dude, Ben and Tom, the guys that run rock recovery, they're such good men. There's such. Do you know how much they work with people when they don't even sign up for their.

Justin Andrews (47:39)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (47:40)

Like, they'll get these people that will.

Adam Schaefer (47:41)

Go above and beyond.

Sal Destefano (47:42)

Oh, they'll just. I. I talked to Tom, and he'll talk to. He'll. He'll say, hey, this person found us through your show. I've been working with them for the last five weeks, and we're having all these conversations, like, oh, really? Are they. Are they getting, you know, rehab? He's like, no, they just inquired. And so I'm just helping them out. I'm like, you're doing all that work. I mean, and they're texting them.

Justin Andrews (48:02)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (48:03)

Back and forth.

Justin Andrews (48:04)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (48:04)

Like, you know, I have a real heart for it. I mean, they're. They're in it to really help people. Like, if you're looking, if you need rehab or a friend or family member, like, you want them to go to a place that is not just, you know, trying to generate revenue, because there's a lot of those places, and they know how to game the system. These guys care. Like, genuinely care. They're such good guys. And I talk to them about these, and sometimes I'll send a video because they'll say, hey, this person found us through the show. Huge fan. Would you mind sending an encouraging video? And then that's when I'll find out, like, you've been talking to this person for weeks.

Justin Andrews (48:37)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (48:38)

They're not even paying you. He's like, yeah, man, I'm trying to, you know, help them out.

Justin Andrews (48:41)

Didn't Ben just formally give his heart.

Sal Destefano (48:43)

Over to the Lord?

Justin Andrews (48:44)

Isn't that what I heard?

Sal Destefano (48:44)

Yeah, he did. He's a new Christian.

Justin Andrews (48:45)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (48:46)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (48:46)

That just happened, right?

Sal Destefano (48:47)

He just. It just happened. It was really, really had a really cool talk with him and discussion after he was on our show, and he. You Know, shared some personal stuff, and so we talked a little bit about it, and he's been. He worked with Chad a few times.

Justin Andrews (49:01)

Oh, he did.

Sal Destefano (49:01)

He did. I hooked him up with Chad for. For a few sessions, and then he just told me he's. He's now a Christian.

Justin Andrews (49:07)

Did your. Did your episode with Chad go live yet?

Sal Destefano (49:10)

No.

Justin Andrews (49:10)

What do you have coming up right now? What's on the. What's on this?

Sal Destefano (49:13)

I don't know. What's up next? We'd have to ask Dylan that. Which one he's. He's going to drop next? Oh, the one where I work out with Dennis.

Justin Andrews (49:18)

Oh, okay.

Sal Destefano (49:19)

Yeah, yeah.

Justin Andrews (49:19)

So that's going next.

Sal Destefano (49:21)

That should go up next.

Justin Andrews (49:22)

Okay.

Sal Destefano (49:22)

But I have the. The one with Chad was really good. He's so. He's so knowledgeable.

Justin Andrews (49:26)

What did you guys do? Record a zoom? Is that what you guys did?

Sal Destefano (49:29)

I did a zoom with Chad. Yeah, with Dennis. We had a conversation at his jiu jitsu school, and then we also did a workout together. I took him through a bodybuilder workout. You know, the whole deal is like. You know what I'm realizing? It's just so stupid. You guys. You guys are gonna, like. You guys are gonna be like, duh. You guys know this. As trainers, when you're working out with someone the best. You have the best conversations. Exercise tends to open up.

Adam Schaefer (49:56)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (49:57)

You know, past communication. Yeah. It opens up vulnerability.

Justin Andrews (50:02)

Subconsciously. We all want to break. That's why. And so we come up with a conversation. Right. I don't want to grab that bargain.

Sal Destefano (50:10)

No, but it does. Right. It's like, you have the best.

Justin Andrews (50:12)

Remember clients that used to do that? I used to have some clients that were. I remember, like, the first time you started catching on. Yeah, I started figure that out. That, like, I had clients that would, like, you know, they. They. I mean, because we talk about. There's a bit of a. An art form to that as a trainer, like, you know, you know, how can you connect with your clients, educate them, give them proper rest, but then also give them the proper amount of volume and intensity in a workout. I really believe there's a bit of an art to that of, you know, the right balance of conversation that doesn't impede on a good workout. But. And. And so when you find clients that hack that and they, you know, start asking questions, like, right before their set is supposed to go again, like, you know, and then they ask good questions, and so then you don't. You don't catch. You don't catch it. Till you start to notice there's a pattern here. Like, oh, every time we're about to go to that next.

Sal Destefano (50:59)

Good trainers pick up on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had clients sometimes that would fake, like, they grimace or they'd fake exertion because they'd want to stop the set.

Justin Andrews (51:07)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (51:07)

And you start to pick up on it.

Justin Andrews (51:08)

You're like, yeah, no, you got two more of those. You got two more of those. I can tell the way. I can tell by the way the bar is moving.

Sal Destefano (51:14)

I got to tell you guys about the conversation. I'm having the best conversations with my 15 year old because she's getting into lifting. You guys are gonna crack up. Listen to this. She goes, this is. This is the text I get from her at night, right? Because she's. She was with her mom and she went to the gym. Hey, if I run a mile after working out, will that ruin my workout? This was her text?

Justin Andrews (51:32)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (51:32)

I'm like, what an interesting question. Well, that ruined my workout. Yeah. So, like, it'll reduce the muscle building signal, but it will improve endurance. So less muscle, more endurance. So she's like, well, what if I just walk it? I don't understand this, papa. How. How come some girls who play soccer are both muscular and conditioned? Why are you saying I can't be both when so many people are? So I'm like, look, walking is best for muscle. Athletes build muscle. But those same soccer players would have more muscle if they just strength train. But if you want to have stamina, then, yes, run after sprinting is good. And so she's like, this is a reply. But I'll lose muscle. I'm like, you know, I'm just in my heart. She's so focused on building. Oh, God. Which is so great. So, like, it's about.

Justin Andrews (52:10)

It's crazy. Like, it's almost like a switch just happened. Like a year ago, dude, Right. Overnight, she went from, like, not interested to just kind of interested. Like, full on interest, becoming a meathead.

Sal Destefano (52:22)

I'm like, well, look, if you want to play sports, you got to be in condition too. You can't just build, you know? She's like, but I want to build. This is hilarious.

Justin Andrews (52:29)

Oh, wow.

Sal Destefano (52:30)

So fun.

Justin Andrews (52:30)

That's so awesome.

Sal Destefano (52:31)

I'm having a blast with it right now.

Justin Andrews (52:32)

That's cool.

Sal Destefano (52:32)

It's going to be. I predict it'll be a few years before her and I get some workouts together. Still too soon, but.

Justin Andrews (52:38)

Oh, so are you avoiding that right now intentionally?

Sal Destefano (52:40)

Huh? Yeah, dude. I don't want it to Be me making it happen, pushing it.

Justin Andrews (52:45)

Well, yeah, but she's gonna go, what if she asks you, though?

Sal Destefano (52:47)

Oh, then I'll do it.

Justin Andrews (52:48)

Oh, okay.

Sal Destefano (52:49)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (52:49)

Oh, so you're saying I'm not gonna. You're not.

Sal Destefano (52:51)

She asked me.

Justin Andrews (52:52)

Okay, well, that makes sense. I get it. Like, that. I thought you were, like, avoiding that. Like, if she wanted, she's gonna go down all the.

Sal Destefano (52:58)

She's gonna do all the mistakes. She's gonna over train. She's gonna do too much. She's gonna challenge me and then go do the stuff after she asked me. And I'm. You just. You let them. Because if you push too hard, especially with the teenager, they're just going to go in the other direction. So it's, you know, this is like this game, this balance game. In fact, I had a conversation with her the other night and I said, you know, you're at the age now where it's no longer, you know, I give you these boundaries and then I punish you every time. We're entering into a phase where we have conversations.

Justin Andrews (53:29)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (53:29)

And I said, and so long as you're open and we have conversations, I won't have to revert back to.

Justin Andrews (53:35)

I mean, she's 15, so she's technically in the coach phase, almost friend phase. You know, 18 is when you transition the friend phase. And so you're in that kind of limbo stage of just kind of coaching, but transitioning over to we're more kind of a friend than you are. It's interesting, the daddy role, you know.

Sal Destefano (53:50)

It'S an interesting transition.

Justin Andrews (53:52)

Oh, I can imagine how. I mean, I'm not there. I have no idea what it's like as, but I can only imagine how difficult that is. I mean, I think this is a challenging thing for all parents. I think. I mean, that's why that, that last book that I read was so good, because it's like they're going to go through that whether you like it or not. And so, you know, if you end up being stuck as a parent who parents in just one phase. And I think, I think we all, I think all parents probably have a natural gift for one of the phases more than others. And so kind of like how you get stuck in a workout routine of like, you really like it, you're really good at it, so you do it all the time and you don't move out of it. I think parents probably do the same thing with, like, their parenting style. It's like, oh, you're a really good like, like rule setter or You're a really good coach or a really good friend. But it's like the kids have actually phases neurologically that they. That they're in, and they're going to move through those whether you like it or not, or whether you're a good type of. That type of parent or not. And so learning to adapt to that and be aware of kind of what stage they're at is.

Sal Destefano (54:50)

How are you navigating that, Justin? Because I know you got it. I mean, your son's 15, same age.

Adam Schaefer (54:53)

Yeah, he's the same age. And it's interesting because he's really getting into training, too. They have, like, it's a sports performance class where they weight train at school, which I was super pumped on. But we're getting into this conundrum here where he's over training, and I'm having to kind of coach him, like, through that of what's probably appropriate, you know, as he's training there, but then also having to go to practice.

Sal Destefano (55:19)

So he's already training so much, so much. And I.

Adam Schaefer (55:23)

And I've made sure to go to these gymnastic practices because, like, I know they do a lot of, like, calisthenics and also, like. But, you know, I'm starting to see him like, oh, wow, they do a lot of body weight, like, exercises and training. Like, it's not just skills training. Like, he has them doing a lot. So, you know, he's. He's kind of working with the coach to back off a little bit of that so he can do a little bit more weight training, focus, and then just, you know, concentrate more on the skills. And it's starting to do better. But, you know, it's funny. He's had his first, like, I have, like, a knife pain in my shoulder blade. And, you know, they think it's like, a real injury.

Sal Destefano (56:02)

Yeah.

Adam Schaefer (56:03)

You know, and I'm like, okay. You know, it's kind of like the first real, like, a strong, like, knot that. That's, like, really irritating and inflamed. And it's like, you know, we can work through this.

Justin Andrews (56:15)

As he experienced, like, a deep tissue.

Adam Schaefer (56:16)

Massage yet, so he wouldn't even. He wasn't even open to that. And I was, like, gonna get in there. And so now he's finally kind of allowing, like, Courtney started to. To work on him a bit, and. And he's realizing that there could be relief there. And I'm taking him through a lot more mobility type of movements, so he could, like, help to kind of, you know, alleviate that. So it's he's learning now, too, how to navigate when he gets the pain signal. And like, if it's a, if it's a real, like, alarming pain signal or if it's just something that's like, tight over. Yeah. Use kind of stuff.

Justin Andrews (56:51)

Yeah. You know, I, speaking of this, like, I, I did not unlock deep tissue massage until way later. Way later.

Sal Destefano (56:59)

Same.

Justin Andrews (57:00)

I thought it was, I thought it was silly. I thought it was like more of meditation, yoga thing. I did not think, I didn't think.

Sal Destefano (57:06)

There was any benefits at all. Muscle.

Justin Andrews (57:09)

It wasn't. I don't think it was until my mid, mid to late 20s before I got really introduced to like, a sports massage.

Adam Schaefer (57:17)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (57:17)

And it, like, unlocked a whole nother level to me that I'm like, like, damn, man, I wish I was more open to this when I was younger. And so I can only imagine at that age you're like, huh, What? Why? No, it doesn't make sense.

Sal Destefano (57:27)

I had a, I had a massage therapist in my studio. That was so good.

Justin Andrews (57:30)

Was that finally when you. Because that was like late 20s or 30s for you.

Sal Destefano (57:34)

Exactly. So they would train with me and they'd have dysfunction. I do correctional exercise. They'd work with her either before or after, and they improve so much faster. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, maybe I should try this for myself. It's just makes a huge difference.

Justin Andrews (57:46)

I mean, I feel so. I, it's crazy how everything kind of just aligned perfectly with when we were first starting to build this business and I was competing and kind of using that as like a little bit of, to get. Attract some attention and attraction for the show. And that was also right when Katrina and I were first starting to date. And she was also still running a massage clinic and was massaging me. Like, I got massaged every night for like, like well over a year of consistency. I swear that unlocked my ability to train at the, the volume and intensity I did to get that.

Sal Destefano (58:19)

Cutler was big on it too. Oh, he was huge on it.

Justin Andrews (58:22)

And, and you got a pump after, by the way.

Sal Destefano (58:24)

You get a pump after a good massage.

Justin Andrews (58:25)

Yeah.

Sal Destefano (58:26)

The blood flow increases.

Justin Andrews (58:27)

Yeah. And you, you speed up recovery like crazy.

Sal Destefano (58:30)

Yeah.

Justin Andrews (58:30)

And so if you have, if you have high training volume and training as hard as I was training back then, like, I, I, you know, if I didn't have that, I don't think that, that I reached the level or definitely don't put on the size and get to where I was at in the short time I did.

Adam Schaefer (58:43)

Funny, though. So this is. I, I knew this was gonna eventually happen, but like teenagers, you kind of the stereotype. They're gonna all of a sudden eat you out of the house. He's like six full meals, like every day.

Sal Destefano (58:55)

Isn't that crazy?

Adam Schaefer (58:56)

Yeah. And it's like heavy protein, like lots of protein. And he's. I mean, he's starting to really fill out, like even since last you guys seen him, like working in here. And I'm just like tripping out. Like, it's just like I with him especially. And again, you never know because, like, your kids are different personalities and whatnot. But like, I'm like him being the buff one, I didn't see it coming.

Sal Destefano (59:18)

You know, he's a.

Adam Schaefer (59:19)

He's a beast right now.

Sal Destefano (59:20)

So. That's interesting.

Justin Andrews (59:21)

Yeah, that's cool.

Adam Schaefer (59:22)

It's cool.

Sal Destefano (59:23)

Element is an electrolyte powder. You add it to your water, it has enough sodium to actually make a difference. Most electrolyte powder is too low in sodium to actually make a difference. Not element. By the way, it's sugar free. No artificial sweeteners. It's amazing. It tastes good and it works. Hydrates you. I get better pumps in the gym when I drink them anyway. Go check them out. Go to drinklement.com mindpump on that link. You'll get a free sample pack of their most popular drink. Mix flavors with any purchase. Back to the show.

Doug (59:54)

Our first question is from Janaya May. What should your training look like while on a cut? Heavy weight, low volume, low weight, high volume, slow down tempo, et cetera. I know you don't build on a cut, but I want to do the best I can to maintain the muscle I already have.

Sal Destefano (60:10)

Well, that last part of the question really speaks to what's important when you're on a cut. When you're on a cut, obviously, yeah, the ultimate goal is to lose body fat. That's why people want to cut. The second goal is to preserve as much muscle as possible. You don't want to lose muscle on a cut because that, that makes the subsequent cut or the as you progress through the cut much more difficult because your metabolism starts to adapt. And one of the ways it adapts is it starts to. Your body starts to pare down muscle. So the goal with your training always on a cut is to preserve. The number one goal is always to preserve as much muscle as possible. Now, the problem or the challenge with that is people think, okay, I want to preserve muscle. That means I need to hit my body harder with strength training. I need to do more strength training, more volume. That's the wrong approach. Your calories are lower, your nutrients are lower, your ability to recover and adapt are lower. Because of the lowered caloric intake, your body can't handle as much stress on lower calories. So the key is actually to do less. So you still want to strength train, but you want to do less volume. And that typically looks like less sets, less exercises, and oftentimes lower reps. So people don't realize that increasing the amount of reps that you do, even if the weight is lighter, generally means you're doing more volume. The formula for volume is sets times reps times weight. It's not a perfect formula, but it gives you a nice good idea. So typically in a cut, believe it or not, and of course there's always caveats, which I'm sure we'll get into, you want lower volume, lower reps, and something less, which.

Justin Andrews (61:51)

Okay, I actually don't think you even need to change to this. I think it organically happens when you're in a cut. So when I'm following a program and I go into a cut, I'm weaker. Just, I mean, I'm lower calorie. I'm. I'm gonna fatigued quicker, which is going to organically lower volume. I'm. I'm going to do the same programming that I was doing the week before when I was in a bowl for surplus. The difference is when I go, I just, I accept that when I probably go to get that put that weight on, I won't be as strong as I was the previous week. And that's okay. I'm not pushing it. I'm not going like, oh, I gotta do the same weight as I did last week. It's like, oh, I'm gonna. This is all I'm moving today because I don't have the same energy and strength, but I'm gonna go through the same amount of sets. For me, I don't change it because the volume comes down because I'm weaker. And so, so what? The mistake that I think people do is because that they try and ramp up the volume because they notice that they're weaker and they try and do more, trying to gain. Which. That's a recipe for going the wrong direction.

Sal Destefano (62:50)

Well, a lot of times the, the ramping up comes from the idea that they need to burn more calories.

Justin Andrews (62:55)

Or that. Or that.

Sal Destefano (62:57)

Which is just, it's just not a good approach. Look, the amount of volume required to build muscle is higher than the volume that is required to keep muscle.

Justin Andrews (63:07)

That's right.

Sal Destefano (63:08)

And trying to build muscle in a deficit is not a good approach. You're reduced caloric intake, reduced nutrient intake.

Adam Schaefer (63:16)

It's not going to happen. Yeah, true strength signal is the best move here. And so, yeah, I mean, if there's any element of endurance, it's probably not beneficial at this point, being as though you're not providing yourself with that adequate amount of energy to expend. And so it's going to look a lot more like longer rest periods. You know, you're going to use these bouts of intensity to just press, you know, these compound lifts. So it really looks like a true, like, strength training regimen.

Justin Andrews (63:46)

Yeah, I think. I think the point you made and where you're going right now is the. It's like, let's. Let's talk about what the. Probably the biggest mistake people make. Here's what they do. They're on a cut. They start doing cardio, and they start doing a bunch of supersets and moving faster in the workout. Trying to chase, like, a sweat and a burn. Like, that's like the worst thing you could do. In fact, all the opposite. Like Justin's saying, longer rest periods, focus on lifting. You're not going to be stronger, but try and be stronger. Right. So you're lifting heavy, you're giving long the rest periods. You're not doing a bunch of cardio endurance. So the worst thing you do is go in a calorie deficit, pick up all kinds of cardio, and pick up volume and intensity in your training. That, and it is so common. It's common in the professional. Like, you see it with all the pros. It's crazy. Again, was one of these things that you may have heard me comment on the podcast that I thought was like, a massive advantage? I'm like, man, these guys are just way, way doing this well.

Sal Destefano (64:39)

There's three ways to lose a lot of muscle in a cut. Okay?

Justin Andrews (64:43)

That's it right there.

Sal Destefano (64:44)

One is don't strength train. Two is over train. Three is do a ton of cardio. All three of those four is cut.

Justin Andrews (64:52)

A bunch of calories while you do too many calories.

Sal Destefano (64:53)

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm talking about. You cut calories. All right. How should I train if I want to lose muscle? Muscle. Do what I just said. How should I train if I don't want to lose muscle? Lower volume, strength training, focus on getting stronger, longer rest periods. That's what it looks like.

Doug (65:06)

Next question is from CMOS 23. I want to do the top eight exercises for six weeks. I have five days a week and 30 minutes a day. How would you go about programming the grade eight?

Justin Andrews (65:18)

Yeah, the grade eight.

Sal Destefano (65:19)

You're doing one to two exercises a day. Doug, if you could pull up the list, it's squats, deadlifts, two a day. Yeah, but okay, what order. Let's, let's order them for, for them. Yeah. So they kind of have.

Justin Andrews (65:31)

Because two a day will fall in that 30 minute range perfectly.

Sal Destefano (65:34)

Yep.

Adam Schaefer (65:34)

Pick either your squat or deadlift is a good one to start with.

Sal Destefano (65:38)

Yeah. So it goes squat. There's a squat deadlift, there's an incline press, there's a, a row overhead press, I think there's a lateral sled drag, there's a windmill and then a perfect sit up, if I'm not mistaken. Did I get them all there, Doug?

Doug (65:54)

Yeah, I believe so.

Sal Destefano (65:55)

If you could put them on so I could just look at them and then order them all in the workout for five days, I'll break that down for somebody, give them kind of a good idea of what it's going to look like. There you go. So day one, you could go squat, incline press. Day two, deadlift, overhead press. Day three, row, lateral sled drag. Day four, windmill and perfect sit up. And then day five, you could start with squat, take two days off and repeat the cycle. Yeah, There you go. Yeah.

Justin Andrews (66:26)

And then you got a great routine. Grade 8. That's what it is.

Adam Schaefer (66:30)

Great.

Doug (66:30)

A next question is from Suze Germain. Is it okay to exercise daily as a 59 year old woman? As long as I vary my workouts, different muscle groups for strength, four or five days per week, cardio, two to three days per week, et cetera.

Sal Destefano (66:45)

It depends on the intensity. It depends on what exercises and what you're talking about. If you're strength training, training every day, you're probably doing one or two lifts a day. As a 59 year old woman. Yeah. Maintain your cardio and you're good. The, the challenge or the, the difficulty or the problem? Well, that happens with everyday hard workouts. Every day, you know, long workouts, you.

Adam Schaefer (67:07)

Have to undulate your intensity and, you know, pay attention to that and volume. So yeah, if you keep your volume really low and maybe you, you know, have an intense day and you follow it up with a less intense day, you could pretty much do it each and every day.

Justin Andrews (67:21)

I think the most important thing you're saying is that I'm hearing is intensity and volume and this person's asking the wrong question. They're asking about varying the workout. So this is not a matter of can I Train every day because I vary it up. Doing different exercises, different type of stuff.

Adam Schaefer (67:34)

That'll be too much.

Justin Andrews (67:35)

It's. It's probably a lot of volume. You heard Sal say two exercises a day. So if you're training every single day, math 15, it's probably like a math 15 type of routine. Two exercises. That's it. You varying them up, but still training an hour a day every day is probably. Especially with also two to three days a week of also cardio day throwing.

Adam Schaefer (67:54)

Yeah. Like mobility focused days in there, one to two times a week. If you can break it up, that'd be ideal.

Sal Destefano (68:00)

Of course. But mass 15 for this person right here would be perfect.

Adam Schaefer (68:04)

Yep.

Doug (68:05)

Next question is from snack pack 86. How do you combat high hematocrit and high hemoglobin on trt?

Sal Destefano (68:13)

That's easy. So this, you, you do run the risk. Some people when they're on TRT or their body produces too many red blood cells. Okay. And this is a problem. This could cause issues. Now there's a, there's a range of where your red red blood cells can be, but if they get too high, you can run the risk of things like heart attack or scrooge, blood clots, stuff like that. This is an easy fix. You give blood.

Adam Schaefer (68:38)

Give blood.

Sal Destefano (68:39)

Yeah, that's it. In fact, bodybuilders who are not on trt, they're on very, very high doses, will schedule themselves two or three a year where they give blood. You can get a prescription for this, by the way, so you can go to your doctor, hey, I have high, you know, red blood cell count. And what they'll do is they'll schedule you for, you know, for a. For them to take blood from you. And it's not actually donating. They're just taking the blood from you to remedy this. It's again, it's pretty simple.

Adam Schaefer (69:05)

Or giving it to Doug for later.

Sal Destefano (69:09)

Or if you're healthy, if you're.

Adam Schaefer (69:12)

Sorry, I had to throw that.

Sal Destefano (69:14)

Or if you're healthy and you, you want to go donate blood, you go to your local Red Cross and you do their tests and then you give blood. I do this once or twice a year, both for the health benefits, but I also have type O blood, so a lot. It's a universal blood type. So. And by the way, most men, the studies will show giving blood once a year is healthy. For men, once a year anyway, regardless if you're on TRT or not. So that's it. Easy fix.

Adam Schaefer (69:41)

And you get a cookie. I'm not giving any of my blood away.

Sal Destefano (69:43)

Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. We'll see you at Mind Pump Media.

Doug (69:47)

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discount discounted RGB super bundle@mindpumpmedia.com the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free resources@mindpumpmedia.com if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.