2701: Lifting Heavy vs. Lifting Light, Which Is better?

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2701 – "Lifting Heavy vs. Lifting Light, Which Is Better?"

Release Date: October 8, 2025
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the “Lifting Heavy vs. Lifting Light” debate, breaking down gym myths, science-backed strategies for muscle growth, and the nuanced realities behind popular fitness trends. The hosts discuss physiological and psychological aspects of lifting, training intention, tempo, injury risk, and practical client coaching, drawing on decades of experience. The episode also addresses live listener Q&A, covering nuanced personal training, nutrition, SIBO, HRT, and more.

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Main Discussion: The Heavy vs. Light Lifting Debate

1. Introduction to the Debate (03:00–04:00)

• The hosts set out to discuss the value in both heavy and light lifting and how each plays a different but essential role in muscle growth and performance.

Quote:
"There's value in both. There's definitely value in trying to get stronger with the weight on the bar or focusing on what's called lifting heavy. There's also value in trying to make the weight feel heavy by going lighter." – Sal Di Stefano (04:00)

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2. Intentionality and Mindset in Training (04:00–06:30)

• Heavy Lifting: Focuses on perfecting movement, whole-body tension, and maximal safe output. Less about isolating the target muscle and more about moving efficiency and building "raw power."
• Light Lifting: Focuses on isolating and feeling specific muscles, pacing, and controlled form.

Quote:
"When I'm training a barbell squat and I'm going heavy... my goal isn't to feel the target muscles. When I'm benching heavy, I'm not thinking, let's make the pecs really squeeze and stretch. Let me feel that. It's the movement." – Sal (05:10)

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3. How Both Methods Drive Hypertrophy (06:05–09:36)

• Beginners: Should focus on technique and use lighter weights, as any resistance produces growth ("no different than teaching a baseball player or a golfer how to swing" – Adam, 07:15).
• After 1 Year: Moving to heavier weights aims for more strength, directly correlating to further muscle growth.
• Advanced Lifters: Risk/reward of heavy loads changes; gains become harder and injury risk increases.

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4. Technique, Tension, and the Heavy/Light Balance (08:25–09:59)

• Both methods "work the muscle through tension," but producing max tension with lighter loads is harder in practice.
• Excellent technique is imperative at all intensities—"Lifting heavy doesn't mean you throw technique out the window." (08:45)

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5. The Form–Load Paradox ("Heavy Loads Improve Form") (09:37–11:49)

• Sometimes, moderate to heavier loads force lifters into better technique since the lift commands focus and proper bracing. With light weights, people may slack or become lax.

Quote:
"When you do 135 [pounds] versus 225 on a squat, the difference is night and day. My form is better at 225... at 135, I'm almost lazy." – Justin (09:37)

• Injury risk is higher with heavy weights; small technical errors are more punishing.

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Deep Dive: Tempo, Novelty, and Athletic Function

6. Does Tempo Matter? (11:49–18:00)

• Referencing a Brett Contreras clip, the team discusses whether "tempo" (speed of lifting) affects hypertrophy.
• While controlled tempo may not directly yield more muscle in short-term studies, it reduces injury risk and refines technique over years. Novelty (introducing new speeds or tempos) is also a muscle-building variable.

Quote:
"In these studies on hypertrophy... follow somebody for five years... the slower tempo will build more muscle, mainly because they didn't get injured as easily, whereas the other person had to take weeks off." – Sal (12:16)

Quote:
"Tempo matters. First off, if you want to move fast, learn how to lift fast. If your technique isn't perfect going slow, don't even think about moving fast." – Sal (15:01)

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7. Athletic Functionality & Real-World Performance (17:31–22:02)

• Over-controlling lifts helps with longevity, but if you never move fast or explosively, you lose "real-world athleticism" (e.g., sprinting, jumping, playing with kids).
• Personal stories about losing "explosive movement" from exclusively slow, controlled training.

Quote:
"I pulled 600 pounds, but I go to sprint... boom. Pull a hamstring. Why? I never train with explosiveness." – Sal (18:31)

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8. Coaching Application: Early Stage Training and Behavioral Change (22:07–25:32)

• Example: Training a beginner by prioritizing technique, stopping sets when form deviates ("I'm trying to train a movement pattern in you right now." – Sal, 23:15).
• Analogy: Learning good gym technique is like learning golf or piano—early mistakes are harder to unlearn later.

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9. The Central Nervous System (CNS), Habit, and Behavior Patterns (25:24–27:54)

• Habits, cues, and the power of the CNS: Example of old alarm clocks causing "anxiety spikes" years later—illustrates how nervous system patterns are deeply rooted.

Quote:
"That wiring exists in your mind because... you hear that sound, it gives you this really strange feeling." – Sal (25:32)

• Changing patterns (food, exercise, etc.) requires intention and time.

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Listener Q&A & Notable Coaching Segments

10. Lexi (Canada) – SIBO, Gut Health, and Maintaining a Healthy Fitness Mindset (55:44–64:54)

Question: How to maintain a healthy relationship with food and fitness as a trainer with SIBO?

Key Advice (Sal):

• Confirm SIBO with proper testing and consider parasite testing.
• During treatment, treat training and nutrition as if recovering from illness; do not push hard or restrict excessively.
• Healing phase needs patience—resist temptation to "jump back in" after feeling a bit better.
• Sometimes multiple SIBO treatments are needed.
• Experience with gut issues helps trainers empathize and better serve clients.
• Specific supplements: FC Cidal, Dysbiocide, Atrantil; oral BPC-157 with KPV for gut healing (64:17).

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11. Matthew (Massachusetts) – Chasing Asymmetries and Pain (65:42–77:56)

Question: How to find and correct persistent movement asymmetries after years of failed therapy?

Key Insights:

• Two directions: (1) Hyper-focus and neurotic tracking make issues worse; (2) Potential underlying sensory/neurological issue.
• Serial specialist-hopping often deepens the issue; sometimes the focus on correction becomes the problem.
• If glaring differences not visible to a trained coach, likely within normal asymmetry range.
• Suggests return to barbell basics, try sports/activities where movement is less overanalyzed; rule out neurological issues with a neurologist to close the loop.

Quote:
"There are things that we're supposed to be aware of... and things that are supposed to be in the background." – Sal (78:32)

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12. Kelly (South Carolina) – Nutrition, Fat Loss Plateaus, and Reverse Dieting (81:49–89:49)

Question: After a year of strength gains but stalled scale weight, does she need to change nutrition or reverse diet?

Key Coaching:

• Big strength gains and possible muscle gain mask true fat loss on the scale.
• Recommendation: Slightly raise calories (reverse diet), increase steps, and focus on further strength progress.
• Hormone therapy (HRT) will increase positive changes several months in.
• Suggests DEXA scan for more accurate body comp data; join supportive online groups for motivation and accountability.

Quote:
"I wouldn’t be surprised if you went up 200 calories a day and saw a little bit of fat loss. Especially with the strength gain." – Sal (85:44)

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13. Amelia (New Zealand) – HRT, Estrogen & Testosterone, Body Composition (91:27–103:58)

Question: What to expect from HRT (estrogen and later testosterone), especially for body composition and training, after hysterectomy and menopause at 34?

Key Guidelines:

• HRT can dramatically improve quality of life and support recovery/training, but don’t treat it as license to “ramp up.”
• Ensure diet is accurately tracked, including snacks, before pursuing deficit.
• For her history (endometriosis, PCOS): lower carb often works better if thyroid is healthy, especially with concurrent metformin therapy.
• Use toggling (2–3 weeks in a deficit, 2–3 at maintenance) while maintaining high protein and strength focus.
• Track true calorie intake for two weeks first.
• Personalized coaching (concierge or group) is ideal for this complexity.

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Other Noteworthy Moments

• Form & Movement Mastery: Leverage, technique, and neural skills (e.g., old boxer Johnny Coulon and elite grapplers, 29:01–32:13).
• Parental/Family Anecdotes: Stories about competitive board games with kids and how fitness parenting compares, 35:59–37:58.
• Music & Neural Entrainment: Brain FM science discussion—engineered music can induce focus, sleep, or flow states, backed by fMRI studies (39:34–41:41).
• Social Media & Manipulation: Brief conspiracy discussion on TikTok ownership and its potential as a psychological weapon (45:25–47:51).
• Happiness & Control: Autonomy and intentional activity ratio correlate directly with happiness (48:04–49:44).

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Memorable Quotes

• "Tempo matters... If your form and technique isn't perfect when you're going slow, don't even think about moving fast." – Sal (15:01)
• "You lose your ability to jump, which is wild. You don't train it, it's gone." – Justin (21:09)
• "Strength is so strongly correlated to muscle growth." – Sal (08:45)
• "You can't hate yourself into better health." – Sal (24:29)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• Main Lift Debate: 03:00–15:00
• Tempo & Research: 11:49–18:00
• Athletic Function & Novelty: 17:31–22:02
• Listener Q&A – SIBO: 55:44–64:54
• Listener Q&A – Asymmetry: 65:42–77:56
• Listener Q&A – Reverse Diet: 81:49–89:49
• Listener Q&A – HRT & Body Comp: 91:27–103:58

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Conclusion

This episode of Mind Pump breaks down the myth that one training style is universally "best." The hosts skillfully explain why both heavy and light lifting, controlled and explosive movement, and focused and varied tempos matter for muscle, longevity, health, and real-life function. With engaging stories, nuanced science, tough-love coaching, and practical listener Q&A, it provides deep value for beginners and seasoned lifters alike.

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Engage with the Team:

• Instagram: @mindpumpmedia
• Website: mindpumppodcast.com
• Programs: mapsfitnessproducts.com

Transcript

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[Show Host / Announcer]

Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews.

[Sal Destefano]

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[Justin Andrews]

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[Show Host / Announcer]

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[Sal Destefano]

If you want to build muscle and become more fit, there's a couple ways you could do it. Some people say use lighter weight. Lighter weight is a better way to train. Other people say go heavy. Lifting heavy is the way. The truth is, there's some truth in both of those. We're going to talk about the hows to do each, what the benefits and the cons are, what they should feel like, and why you should either lift heavy or light. Let's go.

[Justin Andrews]

Is this a bit of the debate that's going online, an extension of that, the tempo debate that's going around right now that you commented on? No, no, because I feel like that you could, you could make the case.

[Sal Destefano]

But that kind of plays into this, right?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Well, that's why I thought maybe why you were going that direction because we.

[Adam Schaefer]

Haven'T had that conversation, brought that up.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And Sal, Sal did a reaction video to it, which I thought was really good. And then, of course, you know, there was a couple people on there that. That's not what he's talking about. But I think it was a really good point. And I do think that's a, it's a good discussion because I, I think that there. That oversimplified that and I'm sure it aligns with the point you're about to make right now with lifting heavy and versus lighter, too.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with this. There's value in both. There's definitely value in trying to get stronger with the weight on the bar or focusing on what's called lifting heavy. There's also value in trying to make the weight fit, feel heavy by going lighter. Right. And you'll hear bodybuilders promote one or the other strength. Athletes obviously typically promote going heavy because they have to. They compete. And the weight on the bar matters in the competition. Athletes, they will use both, depending on what they're looking for. So I'll start with one of the first things, which is the feel of the workout or the intention. Right. So there's very different intention. When I'm training, let's say a barbell squat and I'm going heavy versus when I'm doing a barbell squat and I'm going light. When I'm going heavy, I'm not trying to feel muscles working. Now, I know that sounds funny or weird because obviously muscles are working, but my goal isn't to feel the target muscles. When I'm benching heavy, I'm not thinking, let's make the pecs really squeeze and stretch. Let me feel that.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's an overall movement.

[Sal Destefano]

It's the movement. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to perfect the movement. I'm trying to fire everything. I'm trying to move smoothly, and I'm trying to lift as much as possible. This is a very different mindset than when I go lighter. When I go lighter, I'm trying to feel the muscles that I want to work. I'm trying to feel the quads or the hamstrings or the glutes or the delts with lighter weight. Now, the reason why this is so important is because your mindset going into your workout is extremely important. And having the right expectation of will make the workout more effective. And so some people like to go heavy and light in the same workout, and they have the wrong mentality for one, maybe the right for the other. But I found for myself and for clients that I trained, it's like, oh, we're lifting heavy now. I don't want you to. Don't worry about what you're going to feel. Let's perfect the movement and the technique. Let's get everything firing. Let's just move the weight with good technique. And then when they're going light, it's like, okay, let's see if we can feel this particular area.

[Justin Andrews]

Now, how would you. How would you talk about the benefits in regards to, say, hypertrophy? Um, what does each one play a role? Is it the same role? Is it a different role? Does it matter if my ultimate goal is to build the optimal or the most amount of muscle possible? Uh, does one make more sense than the other, or is it make more sense to incorporate both?

[Sal Destefano]

For sure, really good question. Um, and the data shows they both build muscle, but in our experience, like, I'll tell you guys this, right? Yeah. When you're training someone for the first few years.

[Adam Schaefer]

The main goal is infrequently go heavy.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Well, not only infrequently go heavy, but the goal is to get stronger. Right? The goal is to get stronger. Past a certain point, getting stronger doesn't make a lot of sense because the risk versus reward isn't so great. You've been lifting for 10 years. Adding 10 pounds to your deadlift might be a little bit more risky. In the very beginning, it's all about technique and form. Probably after a year of training it's like, let's just get you strong. That's what's going to give you the most bang for your, you know, for your buck. Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, and is your opinion cycling that through that process or just purely focusing on one which to me, form, technique is lighter? So, and I remember this with clients, which this was pre everyone talking about PRs, I always wanted to slow down the tempo, work, work on form because when it's that, when it's so new and novel to them, moving any sort of weight ended up resulting in hypertrophy. And I always thought of it too, like no different than teaching a baseball player or a golfer how to swing. It's like you would never, in their first, you know, sessions, come on harder, hit it as hard as you can. It's just like, no, let's keep doing this and, and focus on technique and, and don't worry, the ball is going to go further. You know, I'm saying you're going to build muscle by doing it this way. And then when you really hone that in. Now we can, now we can leverage that.

[Sal Destefano]

Exactly.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, even like the Russian training protocol, it's like for Olympic lifters, it's very much like centered around lifting lighter weight and really mastering the form of that skill and then performing it infrequently. And see, kind of like, you know, where we're at in terms of your strength capacity, but it's just, just constant refining movement wise. So that way you just kind of get into the pocket real quick.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, what's interesting about this too is so you'll hear people say this, right? Like the muscle doesn't know how much weight you're lifting. It just knows tension. You'll hear people argue this. However, there is a truth that trying to create as much tension with lightweight as you can produce with heavyweight is actually very difficult. It's actually quite difficult. In fact. You'll get people who are experienced, who've never really pushed strength, then challenge themselves with strength, and suddenly they'll start to see new gains. Because actually forcing yourself to, you know, push or pull something heavy does challenge your body in ways that are hard to do in intrinsic. Not saying you can't do it intrinsically, but it is very difficult. And then again, back to the client. You know, when I would train a client, it was like, first off, it's always about technique. So I want to be clear. Lifting heavy doesn't mean you throw technique out the window. If anything, lifting heavy even more careful. Yeah. About your technique, it better be on point. But when I would train a client, after a year when I feel like their technique is solid, there was a nice period there where we're like, let's see if we just get you stronger. Because I knew if I could add 20 pounds of this lift, like, you're going to see, because you're going to see phenomenal gains because strength is so strongly correlated to muscle growth.

[Justin Andrews]

Now, I do find certain exercises, you have to load it a little more in order to even make the. Okay, when you take. When you guys get ready to do a barbell back squat, the difference when you do 135 versus 225 is night and day difference for me. In fact, my forming technique is better at 225. Is that 135?

[Sal Destefano]

Isn't that funny?

[Justin Andrews]

It is funny. It's a little bit different. Now. I know what that. I know what that is. Is, because once I feel about £200 on there, I'm like, okay, this is a serious enough weight. I can hurt 135. I'm almost lazy. The way I'm lifting, it's like, oh, this is so light. I'm just going through the motion.

[Adam Schaefer]

Really pressing you down.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it's just kind of. I'm just letting the. I'm letting the weight take me for a ride. Once I get to 225, there's enough weight on them, they go, oh, okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And then now I'm thinking about. Shoulders are peeled back, chest is high, really bracing the core before I go down, you know, slow dropping into the hole slowly. Like. Then all of a sudden, my form gets much better. Do you find that for any other lifts, or is that really the only lift that's like that?

[Sal Destefano]

I think there's certain. Certain lift squats. A great example, Adam, because for me, a heavy squat puts me in better form because my. Let's say, ankle mobility is no longer an issue because it's kind of forcing my body into. Into that position. Whereas with A lightweight. It's not enough weight to keep my heels down, let's say, just to use a crappy example, but also off what you're saying, like, if I'm deadlifting, like, no weight, it's like, you know, I'm just kind of loose.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

You put some heavy weight on the bar, something I can handle, but that's heavy. Yeah, I'm tight. I'm very intentional with how I'm moving the weight. Yeah. Yeah. I think the big thing, too, with this is that they're. They're both valuable. I think they're both very important for people to train in. The one that can really get carried away, that can cause problems for people over time is the heavy lifting. Though I'll say that you might miss some gains if you never lift heavy. But the con of pushing the weight, especially once you get past a certain strength, your injury risk goes up. Because if you're off by one or two degrees with lightweight, if I'm squatting, the weight shifts a little bit. With a 135, it's not going to hurt me. 500 pounds of the bar, the weight shifts 2 degrees to the right. I'm probably going to pull something or hurt something. So that's another thing that you want to kind of consider.

[Justin Andrews]

Can you tie this conversation into or extend the conversation that we had on Instagram in regards to the Brett Contreras clip? I just feel like in a short Instagram reel like that, you can only articulate your point so far or not. A lot of people understand, and I think it's. It's worth having discussion, especially if there's people out there thinking that manipulating tempo is irrelevant. And I just, I. I strongly disagree with that.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, so Brett's a great trainer. I want to say that first. He's a really good trainer. So if I posed the question differently to him, I'm sure he would agree. Yes. So the question was, you know, does tempo make a difference with hypertrophy? Well, when you refer to the data, doesn't seem to make that big of a difference. However, he did say in his reply, one of the biggest things about tempo is when you're more controlled, your risk of injury goes down. Which is true. Every trainer knows it. Sure. What's the number one thing that will prevent progress if you've been training for years and years and years? Injury. Besides not being consistent, it's injury. Yeah. So in these studies on hypertrophy are like, what are they, 16 weeks long? Follow somebody for five years, follow the person with Controlled tempo and the person who's got a faster tempo and see what the difference of muscle gain is. And if everything's being equal, I would bet the slower tempo will build more muscle, mainly because they didn't get injured as easily, whereas the other person had to take weeks off because they hurt something.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I would argue too, that especially with compound lifts is slowing down the tempo helps you start to orchestrate the, the correct muscle firing sequence too. I mean, you brought up like bench press for years. Bench pressing. I just, I looked at it, I didn't understand the biomechanics of it. This is well before being a trainer. And I'm just, you know, just thinking, push the, push the weight. And if you weren't telling me to slow it down and work on my tempo and think about how I should feel, I was going through it and I just went through those motions because all my. Because at that age, my ultimate goal is just build muscle.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So if someone walked up to me and I. That's why I like to have these discussions because even though I think we all, we all think the world of Brett, it's that some kid comes across that and goes, oh, well, why am I slowing this tempo down if it doesn't build me any more muscle? And then they just kind of throw it out. And it's just like you're missing something that I think is incredibly valuable for getting good at lifting. Now take the experienced lifters, put them in a study for 16 weeks. I get the point. I get the point of it. I just think that it's going to get, it's oversimplified.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, oversimplified. There's a lot more nuance there that I think just gets like, totally just overlooked by making a statement like that. Especially when you look at overemphasizing the eccentric portion. Let's just say you're doing like, like straight negatives for that 16 week. You're trying to tell me that's not going to be something different as a result in comparison to, like, control also to just having that one, one, one sort of fast twitch response. And what that was would build significantly different with muscle tissue. So I just, to me, I, I like, I can't really see his angle with this.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, it, it, it, what it communicates inadvertently is that tempo doesn't matter. That's silly. It's. Tempo matters.

[Adam Schaefer]

I disagree.

[Sal Destefano]

First off, if you want to move fast, you have to learn how to lift fast. Yeah. Okay. Also, if your form and technique isn't perfect, when you're going slow. Don't even think about moving fast. However you're off, your technique is going slow. You can multiply times 100 going fast. If you got bad technique with a squat with a really controlled tempo, try and squat fast. Let's see how long it takes you before you hurt yourself. So all of it's totally relevant.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. What about the benefits of novelty? So what if for 16 weeks you always trained a one, one one tempo.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And then and. Or say even longer years.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

You're always trained like that. And we change nothing else. No order of operation like nothing else, just tempo. And I take that person who's been training 1111 and I make them go 4 second negative. They're not going to build muscle.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, of course. Come on.

[Justin Andrews]

And they're not going to build more muscle than that guy or girl. Still continuing to do all in one if no, no other variables have changed but the tempo. I'm going to make the case all day long that that same person will also see growth. The problem, more growth than if they just continue doing one on one one.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And the problem with that, Adam, is that it's hard to do a study like that.

[Justin Andrews]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

So we're going to follow people for nine months and for nine months they're doing the same tempo. And then this group over here four and a half months in is going to switch tempos.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's just such a generalized statement.

[Justin Andrews]

That's why I want. I don't either. That's why I want to discuss this. Because again, some if I'm young, 16 year old me who just cares about building muscle and I hear that I'm like, I ain't messing with tempo anymore. I'm just going to keep doing this one tempo that I like to do and keep just trying to get stronger and not saying that I won't still get stronger and that won't work. But that same kid who does that for two years straight of lifting with a tempo like that. One of my favorite, I mean I used to do this with clients. One of my favorite things to give an advanced lifter who'd been lifting the tempo change. Yeah. Because they never. Most guys don't do that. Most guys do not do a four second thing. And so I would take this guy who was a very advanced lifter and he's been stuck at a plateau for a long time. I look at his program. This is all I'm going to change is I'm going to throw this guy on a 4 or 5 second negative. And all of a sudden he would build muscle.

[Sal Destefano]

So.

[Justin Andrews]

So you can't tell me your point.

[Adam Schaefer]

Of it being, like, if I was to pick the actual type of tempo, that would reduce the risk for injury and extend the amount of potential you have to build muscle. Yeah, sure. Then the controlled, slow tempo. But to interrupt that to your point, like, would have a dramatic effect in terms of, like, now building on top of that.

[Sal Destefano]

By the way, here's where the nuance comes in, so. Cause I love these conversations and good coaches know this. Again, if Brett were here, it would be a great conversation.

[Justin Andrews]

I think he would agree.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, because he's trained so many people.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

I'll just go to what Justin said. Yes. In your lifting, if you want to have the longest lifting career without injury, it's controlled. That being said, if all you ever do is lift controlled, you start to lose the ability to move fast or to react quickly in real life. So then this is what it looks like. I lift. I've been lifting for 10 years. Everything's controlled. All I do is lift and walk. That's all I do. Which is great for alternative, so not a problem. It's great for health. But then I go outside and playing with my kids and I need to take off and sprint or I need to jump off a curb or jump up onto something. Suddenly I pull a muscle. What's going on? How did I hurt myself? Well, you lost the ability to move quickly, therefore you injured. Maybe you didn't injure yourself in your workout, but did you increase your potential risk of injury in real life? Yeah. Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

How do I know this? It's personal. I've experienced this myself. But it's also very true. I experienced this. Yeah. I went to go when I was in Hawaii with my family and my daughter asked me for a foot race. And I took. I mean, I could pull, you know, over five. I pulled £600 off the floor. I'm very strong. I have very strong hamstrings. I go to sprint, which I never do. Boom. Pull a hamstring. Why? I never train with explosiveness. So my body doesn't know how to move.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, sticking to also the muscle, building angle, the. And I used to do this also. Again, advanced lifters, but bodybuilder guys that all they used to talk about is time under tension and go real slow. They were the only ones that did do the real five second, you know, negative. Take that guy and go. Hey, have you ever trained like an Olympic lifter? Ever done anything explosive? You ever done some 1, 1, 1, 2. No. Why would I do that? Time under tension rules, you don't say, oh, great, switch him over to. That builds muscle. I mean, so to both work, both are important to say one of them doesn't matter, I think sends the wrong message. And I understand the context of the real and what they're talking about. But then you get a bunch of kids. Now that. This reminds me of when we had this conversation about the guys that were shitting on the squad, right? And it's like they're promoting Hack Squad, you know. Oh, and the studies shows that the Hack squad produces just as much. I was like, okay, well, that doesn't tell the whole thing. And now you're just telling this whole generation of kids that don't worry about squatting. You don't need to just leg press away and hack, squat away and you'll be just fine. It's like, whoa, don't do that.

[Sal Destefano]

There's also also the other thing, too. We tend to discuss fitness, or let's say strength training with one parameter, hypertrophy. What only builds muscle. Like, that's like. As if that's the only thing that matters. It's not the only thing that matters. There's function, there's mobility, there's longevity, all of which also contribute and play a role with hypertrophy, especially if you plan on doing this for more than a few months. So. And it's again, like usable muscle. Yeah, dude. So it's like. It's like. It's like a dumb. Oh, God. Made me so mad. I think it was Jeff Nipper that was sharing studies on, you know, resistance in the. In the. In the stretch position. So he's like, well, you just need to focus on the stretch position because it's only about building muscle. And you're missing this other huge picture here with the whole thing. You're. You're moving people in the wrong direction. So it's not just about that. When you're training, you got to think about all the other things again, especially if you plan on doing this for longer than just a few months. And moving quickly is also important for the real world, just like the control.

[Adam Schaefer]

Is, especially as you age, too. People just don't consider that.

[Sal Destefano]

No, man. You lose your ability to jump, which is great. Which is. Which is wild. Yeah. You don't train it, it's gone.

[Justin Andrews]

I'll never forget. I'll never forget that day that's like. So the day I jumped out of the back of my truck and I just hadn't jumped in probably a couple of years. Thought my knees were going to explode. I just thought, oh my God, that's weird. Yeah, that's weird. Never been an issue before happened. But I mean, it was so good for that to happen to me because it just, it highlighted like, oh, this is how this happens. You know, I went from being in my 20s, doing a lot of these explosive sports recreationally. All the time. All the time. And so I never really had to program it into my programming because it was naturally built into my lifestyle. And then just go on a two year run where wakeboarding, snowboarding, basketball doesn't happen. And now all of a sudden my body forgets how to do that. It was wild and.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And yet I was fit. You know, I looked good, but I couldn't, I couldn't do it, you know.

[Sal Destefano]

And so, yeah, what's the whole point of being fit? Right? Improve the quality of your life. Right. You know, it's funny, I trained my buddy over the weekend and he's, you know, he hasn't been consistent with working out. So he was an athlete when he was younger. But nice, great guy. Love him, Tim. And we're working out and he's never had. And I could tell as I'm taking him through this, he's never had the experience of being coached or trained by someone who knows what they're doing. His. He's always tried to work out with his buddy or he tried to follow routine. So as I'm taking him through and I'm walking through and kind of explaining what's going on, you know, he has that like, you know, it's funny, I go to work out my buddies and it would be like I go hammer myself. I'd go just to, to just sweat and get sore. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm taking him through exercises. I'm having him go light, lighter than he's used to. We're stopping the reps when I notice a slight deviation. His technique. He could have done 10 more reps, but we stopped and I'm explaining to him, I'm like, look, I'm trying to train a movement pattern in you right now. This is in the beginning, you're just getting started. If I see your shoulder blade drop a little bit or hike up just a bit, we're done. Yeah. Otherwise I'm gonna start training the reinforce bad patterns, reinforcing the wrong pattern. We gotta get strong in this pattern before we really start to push the intensity. Plus you haven't worked out. And just what we did is enough to get your body to improve. And you can see him just like. I know this is way different than what I ever.

[Justin Andrews]

It's funny, because I feel like anybody. And I guess not like there's. I mean, I don't even know if you. Have you actually, like, try to go. Have you done a round of 18 rounds of golf?

[Sal Destefano]

No, I just did what you guys want.

[Justin Andrews]

I was gonna say. So anybody who's. Anybody who's ever thought they'd pick up playing golf, I think has learned this lesson.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Is that unless you actually did it right. Which is probably a very small percentage of people that go get the lessons first before they actually even get out there. Most people get, you know, hey, you should come with me. All right. All right. And so you rent some clubs, or you just do the thing, and then you go out there and you play, and you're like, oh, that was kind of fun. I'll do it again. And then before you know it, you've done it 20 times with no real lessons. And then you actually go, you know what? I'm starting to like this. I'm gonna get someone to come give me lessons. And then the guy's like, oh, yeah, we gotta start all over. Your hands are wrong. Your shoulders are wrong.

[Sal Destefano]

Your head's right. I mean, it's probably harder for that person than the person.

[Justin Andrews]

And they'll tell you that just like for you. I mean, take a guy.

[Adam Schaefer]

Music.

[Justin Andrews]

Who's been lifting with terrible technique for a long time, and then unlearn that pattern. And so, yeah, I mean, I think all of us would agree. We'd prefer a blank slate to teach good mechanics.

[Sal Destefano]

Have the best example for this. It's so funny. We're going this direction. So this is true, by the way, for everybody watching, listening. This is true for movement patterns with your muscles. This is true for behaviors because it's all controlled by the central nervous system. Of course, your brain is the hub of this. Right? So if you have a trigger or a behavior around eating, like, I eat when I'm stressed, I eat when I'm bored. These are the foods I reach for here. I hate myself into getting into shape. This is how I've done it in the past, even though obviously it doesn't work because you can't hate yourself in better health. So I end up dropping off. These are all behaviors and patterns, and you have to relearn and train them. And so I have a great example of just how powerfully the central nervous system can be trained. And the example is this. And this was. You sent me A clip, Adam, of the old school alarm clocks. Yeah. So remember the alarm clock everybody owned.

[Justin Andrews]

In the 90s that makes your skin crawl as soon as you hear it? The brown one with the red?

[Sal Destefano]

Brown. It looks like wood.

[Justin Andrews]

You can get it at Walgreens for, like, $4, probably.

[Sal Destefano]

If I were to play the sound of that alarm right now in any room with anybody over the age of 35, shockwaves immediately, even if you're awake, you feel like, oh, yeah. That's the training of the cns. That wiring exists in your mind because. Very powerful, by the way, to be woken up that way. To the point where if you hear that sound, it gives you this really strange feeling.

[Adam Schaefer]

No, thanks.

[Justin Andrews]

It takes everyone back to middle school and having to get up and go to school. You didn't want to go to school.

[Adam Schaefer]

So take one of those. Just smashing it.

[Sal Destefano]

And it's that specific sound. Everybody knows that Dylan should insert it in this episode with that sound, because.

[Adam Schaefer]

My roommate kept hitting snooze all the time, and so I just yanked it out and then broke it.

[Justin Andrews]

Doug, do they have those back then with you?

[Sal Destefano]

They sure did.

[Justin Andrews]

A bird that actually did something.

[Sal Destefano]

Doug woke up to a rooster.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Did you have that alarm clock?

[Show Host / Announcer]

Oh, absolutely.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. Everybody had that. It was brown, right?

[Sal Destefano]

Little brown square thing. Do you know what an old alarm clock was, by the way? Like, ancient.

[Justin Andrews]

Before that?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, way before that, people would have a candle, like a steam whistle.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, the candle melted all the way down.

[Sal Destefano]

There was a nail. There'd be a metal plate. They'd put a big candle on it, and they'd stick a nail in it at a particular point. And when the candle would burn past a certain point, the nail would fall and hit the metal plate and wake them up. Brilliant. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's so cool.

[Sal Destefano]

And they knew just how long it took to.

[Justin Andrews]

That's brilliant.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's actually kind of cool.

[Sal Destefano]

I know.

[Justin Andrews]

Probably a much better way to get woken up, too.

[Sal Destefano]

But what I was gonna say is, if you wanted to change your reaction to the sound of that alarm clock, you'd have to retrain your central nervous system. What would that look like? Well, you'd have to listen to that sound, and then something else would have to happen. So you have to listen to the sound, and then something cool would happen, and eventually you would change your behavior. So this is what happens when you're trying to change your behaviors around food. And this starts with awareness. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm eating right now. It's because I'm Stressed out. I got to become aware of it. Maybe I should eat differently. Still not easy. Still eating the wrong way. But you're bringing awareness and eventually start to develop different behaviors. This is again a conversation how my buddy Tim, I'm like, listen, dude, I said over the next year, if you and I keep working together, because I'm going to try working with them, what you're going to find, because you're going to stumble the whole time. It's just how it works. But over time, you'll find that eating right or healthy in a balanced way is going to feel less and less stressful and more and more natural. And that's really the key to longevity with this.

[Justin Andrews]

How's his eating? Is he a good eater, bad eater? What's his deal?

[Sal Destefano]

He struggles. He struggles with like anybody. He's not like super overweight or anything like that, but he struggles because of the shame associated. So he'll try going on a diet and then he'll fall off the diet. He's like, what's wrong with me? Why am I in this garbage? You know, the whole cycle. It's very common. You guys know how many people we work with was the same thing over and over again.

[Justin Andrews]

How did this happen? You guys just linked up recently and you're like, I'm gonna start training.

[Sal Destefano]

So he's one of my good friends from the church we go to. We have a group of friends that we're all, you know, doing life together. Really great guy. And my wife suggested that he be in my series, so I actually recorded it.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh yeah?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So he came in and I trained him. And then also he's like really, really good with theology. Super smart guy. Like, so we talked and.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, cool.

[Sal Destefano]

Worked out. Oh, in the series. And after that I'm like, you know, I think I'm gonna train him. I think I'm gonna have him come in once a week and just help the guy out, you know.

[Justin Andrews]

That's nice.

[Sal Destefano]

You do that. Really cool. Super dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

I, I was reading something and I, I'm pretty sure you've read the same thing about this old boxer that they call him the Unliftable Man.

[Sal Destefano]

I read that. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Johnny, what's it called?

[Justin Andrews]

Unlikable Man.

[Sal Destefano]

Colin. Yeah. He weighed like 180 pounds.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, he's not even that. Yeah, he's definitely not that heavy. But what he could do was, was really like ground and reorganize. Yeah. The, the weight distribution of his body.

[Sal Destefano]

He would also place his arm on someone at a particular point so that the Leverage was really hard.

[Adam Schaefer]

The leverage, he was like a master of leverage.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I feel like some. Some wrestlers have this gift.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah. You know.

[Justin Andrews]

See, some guys just. They just know how to put their stance and work with their hips to where it's just like.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like Muhammad Ali was like twice his size and, like, couldn't lift them up.

[Sal Destefano]

He had all these celebrities would try and lift him.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, interesting.

[Sal Destefano]

And he'd do this thing with his arm. So he would kind of change the leverage, anchor himself, put like a pressure.

[Adam Schaefer]

Point on them or something and kind of diffuse their strength. Yeah. I don't know.

[Justin Andrews]

Was he any good at boxing, too? Or does he just get famous because of this?

[Adam Schaefer]

Good at boxing?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, he's old boxer. Old, Old time. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah, I've never heard of.

[Sal Destefano]

That's really cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you look up his name?

[Sal Destefano]

Doug?

[Justin Andrews]

Who is it?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, you'll see some pictures.

[Justin Andrews]

Johnny Coolant. Is that his? Yeah, it is.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

And that's the stuff that fascinates me, though, because it's like some people just really have a mastery over their body in a way that, like, it's not obvious to everybody watching. But then when you're actually facing somebody like that, you know, to have those kind of techniques.

[Sal Destefano]

See, there's pictures of Muhammad Ali trying to pick him up and stuff like that. They couldn't do it. You. It's so wild. I was talking with Dennis. You guys know Dennis? Yeah, Roberts. He was a. But, you know, world class grappler. Okay. This guy competed at the highest levels.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wrestled the Russian Bear at one point.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, he didn't wrestle in wrestling. He actually went and took a seminar by him. Yeah, but. So we were having this conversation. Yeah. And I was telling him, I was like, what's the difference between. Because he's world class. And I felt this in jiu jitsu. I remember thinking I was awesome and I could hold my own and I could beat a lot of guys. And then world class guys came in and I was just. I felt like. I was just like. I felt like I was a child. Yeah. I felt like they could have ate a sandwich and beat me up at the same time. It was so embarrassing. But anyway, I asked him about that and he goes, oh, yeah. He goes, when I was a purple belt, purple belt is pretty high level already. Right? And he was already at that point, like, kind of world class. He went and trained with Hodger Gracie. Hodger Gracie was a world champion. And he said, when you watch Hodger Gracie compete, he won these, like, world class tournaments. Like the world championship tournaments. And he would do a mount and a front choke, which is the most basic jiu jitsu move ever. Okay. It's like, you're a jab cross, bro. It's like an NBA game, and someone's just doing a layup and just nobody could stop him. You're like, why can't you stop this guy? Right? And so he would watch these matches and he'd say, I'd see him mount these world champions, and they just wouldn't move. And he's like, why aren't you trying to get out? He goes, I went to train with him, he would mount me. And he's like, I can't move. And I'm like, what do you mean? He goes the way he. He was so precise where. How he positioned his body weight and where he placed himself. He's like, I felt like I was glued to the floor. And Dennis is a big dude. Yeah, he's a giant guy.

[Justin Andrews]

How frustrating that had to be.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah. So you talk about, like, you know, leverage and movement, stuff like that. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, that reminds me. This is total weird, but you just were reminding me of something that I remember the first time. This is to the point of, like, leverage and understanding how to use your body and leverage. I mean, I remember the first time I tried to massage my wife the same amount of time that she massages me.

[Sal Destefano]

You got exhausted?

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah. Like 10 minutes in. Like, 10 minutes in, I'm done. Like, I don't. I'm like, I'm significantly stronger than this woman is, yet she can press on me for two hours while also having a sandwich or doing something else. Multitasking, and it just blow. And with every bit as much pressure or more pressure than I can apply. But, yeah, it's like, she would always talk about, that's all, how you leverage your body and do that. And obviously, they probably learn that as they go through their schooling and stuff. But remember the first time? Yeah, I remember the first time, like, realizing that, like, why can I not? And I understand adaptation, right? So I understand that, like, okay, there's going to be a little bit of that there that I. I have never. I don't really do this, so maybe I'll adapt and get better. But it's not just that. There's a. There's a huge. Oh, no.

[Sal Destefano]

Massage therapists that don't understand that don't have longevity, having injuries.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

And that's what she'd say.

[Justin Andrews]

She said those are the ones that get hurt all the time. Have a Hard. Or they have to quit after so long because they can't handle it because they haven't learned how to properly, like, leverage their body.

[Sal Destefano]

Dude, I took my kids to the Happy Hollow again. I've been going there every week. So. So he's so close. It's so. I can't do what my wife does.

[Justin Andrews]

Sound like a dad hack.

[Sal Destefano]

That's. Oh, yeah, there's so many dad hacks. In fact, I was at a playground with my kids and my son's like, chase me. So I'm like, okay. And I do the dad hack chase, where it's like, you don't run. You just cut them off. So you just. You just walk. But you can't.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're a zombie. So you just gotta walk slow.

[Justin Andrews]

You understand angles.

[Sal Destefano]

Angles, yeah. So he's like running and I'm like, just, you know, I'm still strolling, right? Cause I don't want to run. It's exhausting. So anyway, we go to Happy Hollow, which is just. Again, I can't do what my wife does. She can hang out with them at home and have a great time. I have to get out of the house. If I'm at home with them, I lose my mind. So I take them out. So we're at Happy Hollow and they have these lemur exhibits or whatever. Lemur. You know, lemurs are. No, no. What's that? A lemur is like a. It's.

[Adam Schaefer]

I don't know, is it a striped tail? Like little furry.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, okay. An animal. Yeah. I thought it was like a thing. I was like, what's a lean? No, yeah, I know which one you're talking about. They have like the circle stripes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So we're going through and my two year old, she starts going, I like to move it, move it. I like to move. And I'm like, oh, my God. It's for the movie Madagascar. Dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

Accurate.

[Sal Destefano]

She was singing in case you recognize the lemurs. I know. Kids are. Kids are the best.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's so funny. So I was. Was overseeing Everett's. Like, he was doing this test for P.E. which was interesting. It's like they. They make him do like a at home test. Not just like physical stuff while they're there. So, like, it was interesting. He's like having to come up with 10 different stretches and then say, which, like muscle groups, like, were part of this stretch. And I'm like, oh, wow.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, oh, I can finally help you.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm like, I actually know this, but.

[Adam Schaefer]

I'M like, I'm trying really hard not to, like, give them all the answers, like, you know, so I'm kind of, like, coaching them through it. And I'm like, why don't you do something real simple, like in the doorway and, like, you know, focus on, you know, your packs and this, that. And so I'm just kind of, like, loosely saying for him what to look up and on his, like, iPad and all this stuff. And this is getting towards, like, late at night. And so I'm thinking he's supposed to, like, take a picture of himself doing the stretch and then kind of, like, highlight.

[Sal Destefano]

What?

[Adam Schaefer]

Muscle group, whatever. So I leave him alone. And then I'm. I'm kind of getting ready for bed. I'm like, how's it going? We're almost done with this. He's like, oh, yeah, I'm done. I figured out a hack. I'm like, a hack? What do you mean, a hack? He's just like, well, so. And then I was like, I guessed exactly what he did, too. I don't know why I guess, but I was like, you just took a picture of your face, didn't you?

[Caller Amelia]

What?

[Adam Schaefer]

He took a picture of his face and drew his arms and his legs, like, every one of the stretches. Like, you can't turn this in.

[Justin Andrews]

This is a test.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like, you can't just hack your way through this.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, I was so mad. He's gonna be an entrepreneur. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool, dude. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

You did it, like, two seconds. I'm like, no, you gotta actually do the movements.

[Sal Destefano]

I love it when there's an opportunity for me to be able to help my. My daughter at school, because 99 of the time, I can't help her. Yeah, Like, I'm just doing, like, math.

[Justin Andrews]

It's crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

You're on your own, dude. Chad, GPT that. Because I don't know what's going on, you guys.

[Justin Andrews]

You asked me a while back, Sal, which in it, this happened this weekend for us. You asked me if Max was playing Uno yet, and so he learned Uno this weekend. And so he's like. And he's really. He's good. He's, like, into it and stuff. And we had a really interesting moment. So we're all playing with the family and stuff, and he's playing with Katrina, and he came down, like, the last two cards, and he should have played the reverse card first and then played his final card, and he would have won. And he didn't play that card first. Katrina won. And, like, he started crying, and the whole Family was like, oh, they felt bad. Katrina's like, yes. She was, like, all excited, and everyone's looking at her all kind of sideways. She's like, this is the first time he showed any emotion about losing. Because up into this point, he. You beat him. And he's just like, oh, he's cool with that. Good job, Daddy. And then he's, like, ready to go do something else anymore. So everybody know. The family understood, you know, because they're like, katrina. Katrina is so, you know, empathetic and sensitive and stuff like that. So to see her, like, yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I like that.

[Justin Andrews]

He's, like, crying. And so that was, like, easy. Like, yeah, you know. You know. No, you understand. Like I said, our son has not shown a little. Any sort of competitiveness up until this point. He finally cried over losing for the first time. My wife is all excited. She thinks, thank God there's some competitiveness in there.

[Sal Destefano]

Aurelius can't lose. He's terrible at it. He just gets so mad, he can't handle it. So when I play with him, if I beat him, I have to make sure he wins, like, two or three. Otherwise the whole game's over. He's pissed off the whole time.

[Justin Andrews]

So funny how different that can be, you know?

[Sal Destefano]

I mean, he's also younger, so I think as they get older. But your kid's always been pretty.

[Justin Andrews]

Max has always been like that dude. We're trying to get him talking to taunt and talk trash and, like, care about doing it. But normally he's just like. He gets excited when a tie happens. Oh, we both win. That's so.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, my God.

[Justin Andrews]

No, dude, you're supposed to want to win.

[Sal Destefano]

So it was pretty. It was pretty funny. I got some really good studies on Brain fm, by the way. You guys, like, really, really good. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. So I pulled up some studies on how it works and what it does, and it's really interesting. So they use. There's the scientific foundation behind Brain fm, so people don't know it's. You listen to. And it's engineered to induce different brain wave states. So it can induce a brainwave state that would match or mirror focus or meditation or sleep or whatever. So in other words, you can get your brain to behave in a way as if it were focused by listening to certain things called neural entrainment. And the studies on it are really interesting. So there were several studies. Neuro entrainment, neuro entrainment. So they found that in some of these studies, first off, FMRI studies found that the tracks enhanced sustained attention in participants with adhd. And the brain imaging revealed targeted activation in the areas you would expect. So not only do the people self report, wow, I'm way more focused. By the way, the Reporting was, was 20 to 30% above placebo, which is significant. Like there's very few things because there's.

[Justin Andrews]

Already the placebo effect that's built into everything.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. There's very few things that can give you that big of a on for focusing that can give you that big. Aside from drugs. Right. You take a medication, you can start to get those perceived effects of focus. This is non drug. It's just music.

[Justin Andrews]

I wonder how it does. Not to get you sidetracked here, but I wonder how it does compare to like an Adderall or.

[Sal Destefano]

That's a great question.

[Justin Andrews]

Be interesting to see those compared.

[Adam Schaefer]

You know, the length of the effect.

[Justin Andrews]

I wouldn't guess it to be as strong as pharmaceutical, but boy, if it even, if it even somewhat rivals it, it would be really interesting.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, the test that they were using showed 30% gains in focus metrics. And then the EEG and FMRI provided objective correlates. So it is definitely not just the subjective thing. They're like, they take the test 30% more focused, then they look at the FMRI or the EEG and they're like, yep, the brain is showing more focus. This is crazy stuff.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I remember when Justin, Justin was the one that turned me onto the focus side of it. I used it like from day one on the sleep and meditation and I thought that was great. And I had seen him always using the focus. I thought, you know what, this will be interesting because I've always talked about how I'm not a very good reader when I sit down and I read so distracted. Oh, I get so distracted so easily. And you wouldn't think it's a bit counterintuitive to think play some of this sound. So play noise while you're reading. You would think that would be. But when I saw how well you said it worked for you for focus. Like I wonder if I play that in the background. Why I read a book. Huge difference.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, huge difference. So the fmr, the FMRI research. So when, when you're in a flow state. So if people aren't familiar flow states, like you're like, you're in the zone. Right. That's, that's, that's what that is. Right. And there's lots of studies on this, by the way, on flow state. The military has been heavily invested in.

[Justin Andrews]

Figuring this out because Rise of Superman covers all that.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So this like, top athletes are like this, like. Whereas the average person. Oh my God, you know, the clock says 10 seconds left. If I make the winning touchdown, we win. Like top performing athletes, they become calmer and their brain goes into a flow state. Whereas other athletes tend to have more anxiety and less of that. And they can actually show this. They know what a flow state looks like in FMRI studies. And again, the military is heavily invested in this because they want like fighter pilots or astronauts or whatever.

[Adam Schaefer]

SEALs.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, Navy SEALs to be able to like, can we train this in people or is it just whatever. Anyway, the FMRI research shows that they get a flow state from listening to Brain fm. So it can induce. Yeah. That's wild. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You would think that we would start to use things like that at like schools. Like you would think, like works over.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like broadcasting it through the speaker then. I know that wasn't like part of their advertisement of it because they want it in ear, but it really does have enough.

[Justin Andrews]

No, it does. I remember when we first had the. The guy, the scientist on the show and he talked about that they. They advocate for the. The over ear, like setup. But I. I've played it on my bow speakers in the same room and it. I can still.

[Adam Schaefer]

If I was a teacher, I would.

[Sal Destefano]

100.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Like just playing in the background, like, just real lightly while your kids are reading, studying and doing so that you would think that we. We know this much. There's enough research and support to support it. It's like, okay, well, why. Why are we not.

[Sal Destefano]

Do you know why? Why? Because there are CC stuff.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Dude. There are.

[Justin Andrews]

It's like too strong. It's too powerful.

[Sal Destefano]

No, there are some laws.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's an actual effect.

[Sal Destefano]

Or there's a. Yes. There's either some laws or some regulations or there's fears that this could become a problem where. When you're broadcasting people with it. So when you're broadcasting something that shows in an effect on someone's behaviors, I believe there's regulations that.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, kind of like how we make movies in the news on t. Television all the time and we influence everybody.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, so I like that. Imagine. Well, I mean, the fear is you're watching a commercial. Yeah. And it's playing a sound. Yeah. That's making you more likely to buy.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, they do that already in grocery stores. They. They figured that out. They know that that music that you hear playing when you're strolling through the grocery store is.

[Sal Destefano]

But it's not by chance. Right. But it's not engineered music. Yeah. It's just the kind of music that. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

They find that, figure that out.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So I want. So I wonder if, like a grocery store would get in trouble for playing engineered music.

[Sal Destefano]

Yes. If I'm almost positive.

[Justin Andrews]

Really?

[Sal Destefano]

You can't do that. Oh, interesting. Because you know those. You know where these laws first started.

[Justin Andrews]

Somebody. Somebody could probably totally get away with that though, for a long time. There's no way going around auditing.

[Adam Schaefer]

Imagine if you hacked that. Then you had just like random sense. You know how like you're. Now you're hitting from all these different angles.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, didn't you. You guys. You guys know that the movie. The entertainment industry, they were messing around with subliminal messaging.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. Within.

[Sal Destefano]

And that became illegal.

[Justin Andrews]

Remember that movie thank you for Smoking, he talked about in that movie?

[Sal Destefano]

Did they.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. You ever see that? That's. That was the guy who lobbied for. It was. He was the lobbyist for. What's the. What's the big three? The drug. Alcohol. You've seen. You've seen alcohol? Yeah. You've seen. Thank you for smoking.

[Show Host / Announcer]

I think so.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

A long time ago.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And they were. They were pushing.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Well, he talked about how they used to do that show. Like, you'd freeze the screen and there would be like a. A cigarette, but you don't see it in real time. So why the movie's going, you know.

[Sal Destefano]

You can't get a cigarette.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You can't see it flashes. It just flashes in there. But our brain picks it up.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, they made that.

[Justin Andrews]

But the average person who. Like when you're watching in real time, you don't see it until they. They slow mo it. And then you see. Oh, my God, a cigarette came up on the screen.

[Sal Destefano]

And you know what movie? They don't do it to sell anything, so they're doing it subliminally. But there is a movie. It's a cult classic. Great movie. One of my favorite movies.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a great mo.

[Sal Destefano]

They live. No, no, no, no. Anytime I say cold classic, that's where we go. That's a great one. No, this is a good movie that has things flash in the. And people who love this movie have gone back and found them. But there are flashes of.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, wait, Tyler Durton.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Adam Schaefer]

Fight Club.

[Sal Destefano]

Fight Club.

[Justin Andrews]

I was gonna say Fight Club.

[Sal Destefano]

Fight Club does that. Yeah, yeah. So you can actually find that. You'll be able to find where. When he's talking or Whatever Tyler Durden flashes, I've done that.

[Adam Schaefer]

I've watched it again. And, like, you could see a lot of cool, like.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Subliminal stuff.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. But they made that illegal, so I think that's why Brain FM can't say, play this on your speakers.

[Adam Schaefer]

Meanwhile, we can get propagandized everywhere else.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. That's what my point was. We do it just fine with everything else.

[Adam Schaefer]

Assaulted by everything.

[Sal Destefano]

Speaking of proud. And we're gonna go here. But I don't know if this means. But I love the conspiracies around it. Yeah. So remember, Tick Tock was owned by Chinese companies. Yeah. And they're like, you know what? Someone else has to own this, otherwise we're gonna ban this. Yeah. So Israel bought it.

[Justin Andrews]

And the next best thing.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, I know that.

[Justin Andrews]

How did they buy it, though?

[Adam Schaefer]

Like, who owned it at that point?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. I don't know. Look it up.

[Adam Schaefer]

This is so mysterious to me, but.

[Sal Destefano]

I know the President of Israel came on and he basically. I mean, he said, in his words, like, this is one of the most powerful weapons. Now we own it. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Literally called it a weapon.

[Sal Destefano]

Weaponized. You should fight.

[Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

Dude. Okay, well, he's right. He's 100% right. Not that is nefarious or anything, but he's right. Like, social media platforms are the most powerful weapons for changing or altering or influencing public opinion that we've ever seen.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Well, it seems like they actually didn't buy it, according to this.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, really?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So that might be about it. Don't just fact check you.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Misinformation.

[Sal Destefano]

Who bought it, then?

[Show Host / Announcer]

I don't know.

[Sal Destefano]

Let me see. Wait a minute.

[Adam Schaefer]

No, I mean, there you go. It's out there.

[Sal Destefano]

I mean, I'm pretty sure that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, but who knows?

[Adam Schaefer]

TikTok, we believe it could be completely false.

[Justin Andrews]

It's complex. That's funny. TikTok's ownership is complex. Really?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

But I still want to know, like, who absorbed TikTok after they banned it from China?

[Sal Destefano]

But why did he come out and say that then? Why did the president of Israel come out and say, like, hey, this is one of those power.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Well, so it's a concerned consortium of investors, so they may be one of them. I don't know.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like, they're big investor.

[Justin Andrews]

Would you say consortium? Yeah. What is that?

[Sal Destefano]

Consortium.

[Show Host / Announcer]

It's like a group.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Just a group? Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

It's a nice way of saying a group. It's a fancy way to say we're.

[Adam Schaefer]

A consortium in here.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Well, I mean, look, it doesn't matter who owns these things. There's always special interest. It doesn't matter.

[Justin Andrews]

You're right, it doesn't matter. There's still going to be money in. That's manipulating it one way or the other. You know what I'm saying?

[Sal Destefano]

Someone else has it and you are more easily manipulated. This is a fact. This is a psychological fact. If you're scared, if you're scared, you're easier to sell to. You're easier to manipulate, move around. So it's in the best interest to keep you scared. Just all, all social media is like this. That's a human, just human psychology. What are you reading there, Doug?

[Show Host / Announcer]

So Israel is not a direct investor. However, the purchasing group includes American billionaires known to be staunch supporters of Israel.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, that's why, that's why they said that. Okay, it's less. Less conspiratorial.

[Justin Andrews]

But yeah, you brought up psychology. I actually just had listened to this really good conversation. You know that roughly 40% of our happiness is determined by our intentional activities that are direct correlations between the ratio of which things happen to us. So things you do intentionally versus there's actually a ratio. So if you, if you go about your life believing that everything happens to you and you don't control anything, one of the. And therefore you're miserable life sucks years. Once you get to the place where more things in your life happen because of you, because you did something and it could be small actions that you take place when that ratio becomes higher than the other way around, happiness occurs. So they actually have a direct correlation to that, which is why we've had such great success when somebody's depressed or something like that with working out why it's controllable action. They do. I can go to the gym and go lift weights.

[Sal Destefano]

On top of all the other benefits.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, on top of all the. Exactly. And that's. It's a. It's one of those steps and you can. And the goal is to make a bunch of these incremental things so that a person that is going through this depression because they feel like everything happens to them, they can start to say, well, actually I got up and did this thing. I controlled that. And then I went. Did this other thing. That's another thing. And then I did this. Even though there was these two really bad things that happened to me, I actually have four things.

[Adam Schaefer]

Locus of control.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And they find that there is a direct correlation to the ratio. So once that ratio, like exceeds like 50 of the things you are controlling are happening to you that the happiness curve flips.

[Sal Destefano]

Wasn't there a study on it was with students on. It was like a prison study where they gave the students more autonomy versus less. So they felt like either they were being controlled or they had some autonomy. And the difference between the students and how they felt. Yeah, I can't remember the study, but.

[Justin Andrews]

So they were showing that because they had more autonomy that they were happier.

[Sal Destefano]

They felt like they had more autonomy.

[Justin Andrews]

Because they have more control, more choice. I mean, that kind of highlights that.

[Sal Destefano]

Point, which, by the way, one of my favorite quotes is none are more hopelessly choice. Yeah. Yes. None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. This is the argument for, you know, free will versus. Yeah. Like we have a like two party system.

[Adam Schaefer]

Predestiny.

[Sal Destefano]

And so like I get to choose which party people, you know? You know, people on the outside are like, it doesn't matter who you choose because they all kind of do the same thing. But you feel like you're more in control because you feel like you picked one side or the other.

[Justin Andrews]

That's funny.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. I have now noticed a clear difference because I've gone now for a long period of time without eating grass fed meat versus eating grass fed meat for sure. For me, there's a higher rate of inflammation when it's not grass fed for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

So are you coming off a run right now of not getting a lot of grass? Oh, okay.

[Sal Destefano]

For sure.

[Justin Andrews]

You did look fatter this last couple weeks today, right? I think I made a point to.

[Adam Schaefer]

Tell you that eat a pound, like just before even breakfast.

[Sal Destefano]

It's like second breakfast. Yeah. No, I probably eat about a pound and a half of. Of red meat a day, maybe two. But do I really fatter? Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I think that's why you didn't. That's why you didn't win that hanging from the bar competition was that there's all that inflammation.

[Sal Destefano]

That's what I believe.

[Justin Andrews]

Your fingers are all.

[Sal Destefano]

Full of water.

[Justin Andrews]

Your face full of water.

[Sal Destefano]

Come on, dude.

[Justin Andrews]

I know you see, you see Justin out there practicing all kinds of other challenges. Now he's sent it to the team. He's like, hey, what are we doing?

[Sal Destefano]

Let's do a real.

[Justin Andrews]

Let's do a real manly challenge. Hanging stuff.

[Sal Destefano]

It's so bad.

[Justin Andrews]

You know why he's mad?

[Sal Destefano]

Who can read the longest?

[Justin Andrews]

So because so many people were let down because everybody had Justin as the like clear cut winner. And so now he feels like he.

[Adam Schaefer]

Think that's what it was.

[Justin Andrews]

Totally.

[Adam Schaefer]

It was like baiting on me, and.

[Justin Andrews]

I was like, nobody thought I was good at hanging.

[Adam Schaefer]

I don't know.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, you let a lot of people down, dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

Adding salt on it.

[Sal Destefano]

First of all, there's. There's. There. There is leverage. There's body typ, pipes. Justin's. Yeah. He's. He's got a heavy bottom. He's got a big old heavy bottle.

[Justin Andrews]

I didn't weigh myself until I hadn't weighed my.

[Sal Destefano]

And I'm heavy, dude. You're heavy cakes right now. I did not.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm the same weight. I. I went home again. I'm like, that can't be right.

[Sal Destefano]

Are you. Are you.

[Justin Andrews]

This is like.

[Sal Destefano]

I was in my.

[Justin Andrews]

I hadn't pulled my bathroom scale out in over a year, and just. I didn't even care to get on the scale, and I didn't feel like I was that heavy. But then Justin got on. I got on right behind him, and then the thing didn't move. I'm like, wait a second here.

[Sal Destefano]

Wait a minute. I'm not.

[Justin Andrews]

Because typically when I.

[Sal Destefano]

When I'm not.

[Justin Andrews]

Volume isn't high, and I'm not hitting calories and protein, stuff like that. I. I have, like, what. I think the worst case is I put on a little bit of body fat, and worse, I lose a bunch of muscle, and so. But I typically go down in weight.

[Sal Destefano]

What did you think you were going to weigh, 220?

[Justin Andrews]

No. I would have thought 215.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, my. You were 15 pounds off. Yes. Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

And then, you know, at once, I knew. Then I started to add up, like, oh, that's why the shirt feels like it's. It's wild, though, how, like, what a difference it makes. Knowing Respect is not knowing. Just not knowing.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I was totally oblivious to it. And then I was like, that's.

[Sal Destefano]

Are you. Are you gonna go on a diet? I definitely laid off the ice cream.

[Justin Andrews]

You know what I'm saying? That's what ice cream every night will.

[Sal Destefano]

Do for a couple weeks. No, hold on a second. I know this is what happened. That's why you were in here getting after it in the gym. You had your headphones on. You were doing full session.

[Justin Andrews]

No, I had. Last week was the first time I trained. Four times in a week. Yeah, I haven't trained four times in a week, and I don't even.

[Adam Schaefer]

I trained a bunch last.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I trained four times last week.

[Adam Schaefer]

It got under my skin, definitely.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it got me, too. I was like, okay, I can't. I can't lose the hanging thing and be overweight and it's like, it feels so. Got to get some shit together.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. It's just one movement, Justin.

[Adam Schaefer]

I don't like it.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm gonna tell you. Listen, just. It's just so everybody knows, you know? Everybody has a different personality, though. If I really want to mess with Justin, which I'm kind of doing a little bit right now, if I talk. If I talk crap to Justin, it's better than if I try to empathize. That makes him feel worse. Like, right now, I'm like, man, you're strong, bro. You're doing okay. He's so mad right now. Shut up.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it makes you feel better. I think Sal and I lost the other competition.

[Sal Destefano]

Which? The.

[Justin Andrews]

The scream one. Who would die first.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You and I were a close one. Why would I die first? That's why I know I was one. I thought you for sure would be.

[Sal Destefano]

Why would I die first? You're scared of everything.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, but you're not capable. You don't even know how to wash your laundry or do anything like that.

[Sal Destefano]

Is he gonna murder you?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, but that's being capable. You're just not capable. You wouldn't do it. You know what I'm saying?

[Sal Destefano]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Adam Schaefer]

Didn't you have, like, a samurai sword for intruder?

[Sal Destefano]

I did. Time ago. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It was me. And you, though, like, you would die first because.

[Sal Destefano]

Not because you're not capable. You're deadly. But it's a. It's a guy with a scary mask. Bro, you dead. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's fair.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Or I would be. So, you know, you guys wouldn't see it coming. I would be like, I heard something.

[Sal Destefano]

I know something.

[Justin Andrews]

Or see that mask, and I'm out of here. I'm not even gonna wait to see. You guys might wait around.

[Sal Destefano]

For sure. Doug would be last. He would survive. That's what I think.

[Justin Andrews]

He could hide.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Because he's scurry real. I'm like a rat.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

He'd run between his legs, sneak attack.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, if he had to hang from somewhere, he'd be good.

[Sal Destefano]

You know what I'm saying? So if he was.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Justin would be second. Because in that position where you're laying on your stomach, he'd end up stabbing Justin in the glutes. There's so, so much hide there. The knife would get embedded. Done. So but anyway. Yeah, but definitely, you. Seed is the world's best probiotic. If you know about the benefits of probiotics, like, better digestion Less inflammation, better skin, fat loss. It's true. Studies show probiotics can enhance fat loss. Go with seed again, the world's best probiotic. Go check them out. Go to seed.com mindpump Use the code 25. Mindpump. Get 25% off your first month's order. Back to the show.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Our first caller is Lexi from Canada.

[Sal Destefano]

Hi, Lexi.

[Justin Andrews]

Lexi, Hello.

[Adam Schaefer]

Hello.

[Caller Lexi]

Hey, how's it going? Thank you guys so much for taking my question.

[Sal Destefano]

You got it. How can we help you?

[Caller Lexi]

Okay, so I'm Lexi. I'm a full time trainer. I take clients in person and online and I specialize in newly postpartum and breastfeeding moms. My business has really taken off in the past year or so and I credit a lot of that to you guys. The way you guys educate has really informed my perspective and the way I train people, the way you talk about the importance of strength training, fat loss versus weight loss, over training. These concepts are so relevant to my work with postpartum moms and really my ability to communicate and articulate these concepts. I feel like a lot of that has come from you guys. So I just wanted to thank you for that because I feel like I owe you a lot of my success and it's really had such a big impact on my business, my life, and ultimately my family's life. So thank you for that.

[Sal Destefano]

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. That's great.

[Caller Lexi]

Okay, so my question is actually about me and it's how do I maintain a healthy relationship with food and fitness while dealing with sibo? Obviously, I'm a trainer and nutritionist and I'm finding this really difficult as almost everything triggers me. I've been able to maintain a good relationship with food through years of bulking and cutting and building my physique. But this is really throwing me. So I'm just wondering if you have any advice.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, great. Good question. Are you. Did you get diagnosed with SIBO or is this a self diagnosis?

[Caller Lexi]

No, I did. I'm working with a naturopath and I did the lactulose breath test.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, and so now you're on antimicrobials or using a prescription antibiotic.

[Caller Lexi]

So she suggested, because I've been dealing this for about 10 years, she suggested doing a hybrid approach of both the microbials and the antibiotics. So I'm doing both.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, great. How long have you been taking those?

[Caller Lexi]

I'm just starting, like right now. I just came from the gastro, actually.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, awesome. And then did you get tested for parasites?

[Caller Lexi]

I didn't know.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. I would also suggest getting tested for parasites. It's relatively. It's way more common than people think, especially if you've never treated yourself for parasites. So I know we live in, you know, you know, western societies. Everything's clean. So it's like, you know, well, parasites are not that common. But, you know, if you've been on earth for a while and you've been eating and you've eaten things like sushi or raw foods or vegetables, at some point in your life, it's common enough that you may get a parasite that it probably makes sense to test for it at the very least. And parasites can cause conditions that promote sibo. Okay. So they can change things like gastric emptying and all of that. And so. And what that would look like is you would treat sibo and you get a little better, but then it would get a little worse. So I would just talk to them and say, hey, does it make sense for me to also test for parasites? I think if, if, if you test positive for one, then you should probably test for the other just to be sure. That being said, you just started the sibo protocol, and if all you have is sibo, which is also. It's probably, it's probably just sibo. So I don't want to freak you out by the parasite thing. Yeah, it probably is just Sibo. When you treat for sibo, the success rate's pretty good. So it's pretty good. Now while you're treating it, you may get a little bit of a herx heimer effect. Are you familiar with that?

[Caller Lexi]

Is that like the die off?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So when you start, you kind of get worse before you get better. This is when you get this massive release of toxins from the die off, and so you start to kind of feel crappy. So be in communication with your practitioner because sometimes what they'll do is they'll lower the dose or whatever. But you're. If you're just starting to treatment now, the light is at the end of the tunnel for sure.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Just keep in mind that once you finish the treatment, then there's a healing protocol. So it's like. Because what. Sometimes what happens is like, oh, my God, I'm better than you think. Yeah. You're like, oh, I feel great now, you know, because I did the treatment and I think sometimes like 45 days, 60 days or whatever, and then you're like, cool, I'm gonna go back to doing this other thing. And the gut hasn't fully healed yet, and you can kind of throw yourself back. And sometimes you need to treat sibo two times or three times in a row. But super common. Very treatable, Very treatable.

[Justin Andrews]

What are the must, must do or don't do's during this time? As far as, like, training, diet, those things? Is there any, like, must don't do these things during this process?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I mean, you're treat yourself with your exercise and diet like you would if you're getting over an illness. So this is not the time. Yeah, yeah. It's not the time to push and hammer yourself.

[Caller Lexi]

Yeah, I did end up. I just started doing just because, like, I found the only thing that was really helping with my symptoms was like, either fasting for long periods, which is not something I recommend for my clients, but I was just kind of desperate and it was the only thing that helped my symptoms. So I noticed that I had to like, adjust my training anyways, so I switched to MAP Strong, which I loved. Um, I feel like I just went really low weight and just focused on, like, the skill of learning the exercises and it's been amazing. So would you suggest, like, just continuing with that?

[Sal Destefano]

If you feel great, go for it.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

If you feel good and you're progressing, it sounds like you're. You're adjusting the intensity appropriately. I'd say go for it. Um, but yeah, but yeah, light is at the end of the tunnel. Sibo super treatable.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah.

[Caller Lexi]

Okay. Well, I appreciate that.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, the success rate's pretty high, so. And again, I would contact them and say, hey, I'd like to also do a parasite test just to be, you know, sure. Because if you get rid of your sibo, the parasite will cause it to come back just because of the way the body gets affected. But again, at the end of this, once it's all solved, you're going to feel like a completely new person. But personal experience, Lexi. I treated myself for sibo so many times and would get better and worse, better and worse, until I finally, you know, treated myself for parasite. And that solves everything.

[Caller Lexi]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And it's like. It's like I'm. I'm normal now.

[Caller Lexi]

Yeah, that's good to know. I'll keep that in mind. For me, it was all triggered. Like, I got diagnosed with celiac after the birth of my first child, like 10 years ago. And so that triggered celiac, and then I got diagnosed for that and then I removed the gluten. And it's still. It's just been 10 years of issue, so I'm assuming it's linked to that But I'll definitely keep that in mind.

[Sal Destefano]

Could be. And you know, sibo causes this kind of low level immune reaction, so you're very susceptible to developing food intolerances. So if you eat something too often, oh, this food is good. Chicken is good. It doesn't bother me. Suddenly, chicken bothers me. And then your list of foods. This is what happened to me. Like, here was my list of foods. And then it got smaller and smaller and smaller and I'm like, okay. I guess I'm just.

[Adam Schaefer]

Everything became an enemy at that point.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, dude. I was like, I can't eat anything. And my triggers were carbohydrates at one point, like, all carbs. Fasting felt great. Of course it feels good because you're not feeding the bad bacteria. So.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah.

[Caller Lexi]

But then I struggle because, like, I'm not fueling my training and that's what I love to do. And I feel like I'm stuck. Like, I can't really go after body composition goals or, like, performance, really anything, you know?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And here's some other good news on it, by the way. I love the population that you're serving. I think that's such a great population. I think they benefit so much from working with a coach. You're going to deal with a lot of clients who have gut issues, especially in that population. Women especially. Postpartum gut issues are super common. And so this experience with you is going to make you better at empathizing and working with your clients. So because you can learn all this stuff, but once you experience it, like, it makes you so much more effective. So there's definitely a silver lining.

[Caller Lexi]

Yeah, it's actually crazy. And I just feel like after being through so many years of being dismissed by, like, western doctors and my symptoms dismissed and my pain dismissed, like, being able to empathize with people on that and like, expose them to the world of functional practitioners and stuff has been already really healing for me, in a sense.

[Sal Destefano]

Awesome. Awesome. Three antimicrobial supplements that have been shown in studies to be as effective as pharmaceuticals. And you may already been using them. And I like them because they're also antifungal, because antibiotic can kill bacteria but cause fungus to come back, which is probably why your practitioners have you combined to. One is called FC Cidyl. The other one is called Dysbiocide. And then there's another one called Atrantal. Those are the ones have the best data.

[Caller Lexi]

Okay, sorry, could you say those again so I can remember them?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, no problem. FC Cidal is the first one. Dysbiocide is the second one and then atrantal and in fact, I can have Doug message you. Okay.

[Caller Lexi]

That would be amazing.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah. And you can buy those on Amazon.

[Caller Lexi]

Do you have Any thoughts on BPC517?

[Sal Destefano]

Love? It's oral for sure. Yeah, yeah, oral. BPC157 with KPV is great during treatment and post treatment for healing the gut.

[Caller Lexi]

Okay, thank you. I really appreciate that.

[Sal Destefano]

You got it. Thanks for calling in, doing great.

[Caller Lexi]

Thank you, guys.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, bye.

[Justin Andrews]

Did she say 10 years ago?

[Sal Destefano]

I know. I'm like, when did you have a kid when you were 10?

[Justin Andrews]

She looks like she's early doing recordings. I was like, damn.

[Sal Destefano]

I know. You know it's wild. Just to the parasite thing, you know, we totally dismiss it because we live in clean societies, right. And you know, you don't get a parasite every year like people do in third world countries and stuff, but you know, if you're your 20s or 30s.

[Adam Schaefer]

We'Re exposed to them all the time, man.

[Sal Destefano]

They're everywhere. You can get them. You can get them from any place. You can even get them through intimacy with a partner. So if your partner has it, you may, you may likely have it. So it wasn't until I treated myself for that that things didn't 100 get better. Yeah.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Our next caller is Matthew from Massachusetts.

[Sal Destefano]

What's up, dude?

[Adam Schaefer]

What's up, Matthew?

[Justin Andrews]

Hello, guys.

[Caller Matthew]

This is a bit of a surreal experience. I guess I could hop right into it. You ready?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Let's do it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Get it.

[Caller Matthew]

Awesome. So my question revolves around finding the root cause of my persistent movement asymmetries. First of all, I'm 26 years old. Been listening to you guys for about seven years, lifting for about 13 years. And over the last six years, I've dealt with these asymmetry issues. My right foot is pronated and externally rotated. My left foot supinated. I have restricted left hip internal rotation. We've got scapular winging mostly on, believe the left side. And then my rib cage is also asymmetric, the right side compressed and the left side rotated. I've experienced a lot of overactivity of my right SCM and my upper trap. Over the last four years. I've seen about four physical therapists, two chiropractics, and I'm a personal trainer myself. And I've looked into postural restoration to look at their intervention. Since they're a little bit more specific, I haven't really made any progress. And I was wondering if you guys have worked with any clients like this in the past where it could help me get to the root cause of this.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, so there's two interesting. There's two directions we could go with this. First off, tell me about the pain.

[Caller Matthew]

So there's mostly pain in the left hip and it feels like a pinchy bony stretch kind of. And that's when it goes into an internally rotated state. I also get pain around my right neck, right underneath the ear where it comes and then into the SCM itself. In fact, you can almost see that the right SCM as I purge her feet over time by pulling my face forward.

[Sal Destefano]

When did you get, when were you aware of these things?

[Caller Matthew]

Probably four years ago. I started being more aware and it's consistently gotten slowly more worse over time. I think that some of these were present when I was younger as well. I just wasn't aware.

[Sal Destefano]

Any prior injuries, traumas?

[Caller Matthew]

No. I had one injury when I was training for a marathon a couple of years ago. It was along the. One of the tendons that goes underneath the bottom of the foot out to the. The fifth metatarsal.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Caller Matthew]

And that had me not walking for about a week.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Caller Matthew]

So I never fully let that recover, but I don't know if that's still a problem.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, everyone been diagnosed with neurodivergence, add, high functioning autism, anything like that? Nope. Okay, so any. Have you been to a neurologist?

[Caller Matthew]

I have not been to a neurologist.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. There's two. Two directions I would go with this and I'll tell you why. So the first direction, and sometimes you see this, actually you often see this with exercise specialists. Is this hyper focus on balance. Now here's what. And this may or may not be the case. So this, I'm going to give you the two directions. Okay. So direction one, it could be a hyper focus. So if you have a tendency to be where you can be, lack of a better term, so don't take this personally, but neurotic about. About things like hyper focusing on things. If you've ever been told you're a hypochondriac or hey man, you focus too much or you count your macros too often or you pay attention too close or you have a lot of anxiety, what you can do is you can hyper focus on things that are real, but then through that process they get worse. Okay. So pain and dysfunction are both physiological and emotional.

[Justin Andrews]

Great episode with Jordan Shallow coming out when we talk about this.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. You can't separate the two. You can't separate physiological stuff that's happening from pain and the emotional connection or emotional experience of pain. You can't separate the two or dysfunction. So one route can be hyper, hyper focus, which then causes things to be worse. And I'll give you an example. Most of us walk or breathe without even thinking about it. It's automatic. But if you're always thinking about how you walk, your gait changes and everything changes. Especially if you're hyper focused on either real or perceived imbalance. So regular I could take anybody, I could take a normal person who has no issues and I could tell them, I want you to think about every step you take while you're walking. And what you'll see is their gait will start to change as they become hyperphobic. You're not supposed to think about these things. It's supposed to be natural. I could do that with anything. That's automatic. If I right now, everybody watching this podcast and if I told everybody this is funny, you can actually do this with your friends, you are now blinking your eyes manually. Right now everybody just became hyper aware of how often they're blinking their eyes and that starts to change as well. So that's one route. The other route would be sensory input or how your body is perceiving sensory. So you can either be hyper aware and this could be a neurological thing, or it could be under aware or not receiving enough sensory. So you'll see this sometimes in kids who are toe walkers. So sometimes kids who do a lot of toe walking, there's some sensory input stuff. That's why I asked you about the neurodivergence. It's a higher, there's a higher prevalence of this in people that way and it could be a combination of both. So is anything, any of what I'm saying, Does any of what I'm saying resonate?

[Caller Matthew]

So I've definitely become somewhat obsessive about the movement stuff over the course of the years. I wouldn't say I am neurotic, but I have been a fitness enthusiast and somewhat obsessed for a very long time to go to the second point for sensory input. A lot of the people that I'm talking to now are talking about visual input and balance based input for how your jaw aligns the rest of your body. So I've actually worked with a optometrist and we'll be seeing a dentist in a couple of weeks, I believe, to try and figure out if there is a missing sensory input issue.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. And then I'm going to just caution you, okay. You may be chasing a boogeyman and if you keep Looking, I've worked with people like this where they went to physical therapists, acupuncturist, chiropractor, and every one of these people will find something.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Then I'm going to a ear, nose and throat specialist. Now I'm going to a neurologist. And there's all these possible possibilities and they're chasing, chasing, chasing variables now that. Yeah, yeah. So it's impossible to separate your experience from all of this. So it's impossible to separate the emotional because it sounds like it's caused you a lot of distress. So one of the questions you can ask yourself is, would a good personal trainer watching me work out notice all kinds of crazy asymmetries? If the answer is no, then it might not be as bad as you think. If it's like I have to go to this specific specialist who measures things and then says, oh yeah, there's a 33 degree difference here, 5 degree difference there. Or you go to a specialist like, yeah, you're misaligned on this joint here. Like I could take anybody to.

[Justin Andrews]

We all have asymmetry.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, is this affecting the way you lift? Like, are you hyper aware of this and like be. Are you able to self correct as you feel compensations happen, or is this something that like, you know, like, can you sort of like ignore it and, and relax and just get into the mechanics of the lift?

[Caller Matthew]

I can, but then I feel like the soreness in my body to be very asymmetric the next, next day. Okay, maybe that just means I'm going too hard.

[Sal Destefano]

Right.

[Caller Matthew]

But for example, like, if I were to bench press, I would feel that my, my right upper pec works very well. But then I don't really have any chest activation on my left side that I can feel. And it's mostly dealt.

[Sal Destefano]

If you use dumbbells, there's like a huge strength imbalance. Yeah.

[Caller Matthew]

Kind of.

[Sal Destefano]

What do you mean?

[Caller Matthew]

It's not, it doesn't feel like a huge strength imbalance. It just feels like I'm using different muscles.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. But if you're, if you're doing a one arm dumbbell chest press on one side is how big of a difference is it with the weight that you use of the reps?

[Caller Matthew]

I haven't really gone heavy in a long time since I've been dropping off the weight as I try to fix this problem. I would say that the right side can probably move £10 more than the left side.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. That's within the realm of, of normal. I would say maybe kind of borderline.

[Adam Schaefer]

I would almost have you stick with just barbell training and remove this, like, focus. Yeah. This unilateral obsession and, and work through, like I said, pause if you have any kind of compensations happening and self correct. But like just try to systematically establish that uniformity in your, in your movement.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. The other thing you could do also from an activity standpoint is limit your strength training to once a week and then do some other activity that doesn't have you focusing so much on biomechanics like Brazilian Jiu jitsu or cycling or something where you're just doing a movement and see how that, if that helps. But again, it's really hard to separate the two of those things. If this has been. Just to put it to you this way, if this is a real neurological issue, it's like a big deal and you've noticed it for five years. What you would see are glaring. You would typically see glaring differences in muscle, in muscle development.

[Justin Andrews]

You're going to love the episode that we just did with Jordan Shallow. I know it's coming out in the next week or two and a lot of what we talked about was exactly this stuff. I mean, so that'll be a really interesting.

[Caller Matthew]

Yeah, that sounds. That sounds great. I mean, there is a glaring asymmetry that I can see just in my neck and where my, my right SCM inserts versus the left. So I don't know, it's confusing to me. I would almost like it if it was just a mental game that I need to just get over to return back to normal. But there's part of this that's real.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, I'm going to tell you this, Matthew. A mental. If it was just mental, it would be harder to deal with and fix than if it was physiological. That's just truth. That's the hardest thing to do. So I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But if that's the case, the answer literally is to stop thinking about it, which is like, so how do you do that? How do you do that? You can't not think about something. Like if I told you right now, don't think of a zebra, you're thinking of a zebra. So you have to think of something. You have to focus on something else. Go play.

[Justin Andrews]

Literally go play sports for a while.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

Go play basketball. Go play. Go, you know, go swimming.

[Sal Destefano]

Go try to get good at something else.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. Go do something else that you're not like hyper focused.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. And in the meat. That's what I would do in the meantime, if I was you, is I'd say, oh, I'm gonna go try and get good at this other thing. And then in the meantime, a neurologist would be the direction I would go. Because if there is a neurological issue they'll identify and if they're like, no, there's no neurological issue, then it. You might be chasing a boogeyman.

[Caller Matthew]

So they would be able to identify some type of sensory input.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Caller Matthew]

Difference as well.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. They would test your. Your. They would test and see if there's some kind of neurological issue that's going on. And if there's nothing glaring there, then I'd say, all right, I'm going to just. I'm going to go somewhere else.

[Justin Andrews]

Did you play sports at all? Are you into sports?

[Caller Matthew]

Yeah, I played pretty high level soccer growing up.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Caller Matthew]

And I haven't played in a while since I went to college.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, bro, pick that up. Yeah. Strength train once a week with barbells. Go play soccer and then just go have fun playing soccer and see if that meet while you go, you know, to these other professionals.

[Caller Matthew]

Okay. Do you guys have any people that are more in your network, you think that talk more about this type of stuff or will the podcast coming out be the best resource?

[Justin Andrews]

I'm assuming you. Did you already reach out to Brink in the forum yet?

[Caller Matthew]

No, I'm not in the form.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, let's put you in.

[Justin Andrews]

We'll put you in the private forum where Dr. Brink is at and Jordan Shallow. They're both in there. Yeah, they'll both.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Do a good job.

[Caller Matthew]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. Yep, Yep.

[Caller Matthew]

Yeah, that would be great.

[Sal Destefano]

Yep. Yeah, you got it, man.

[Justin Andrews]

Keep us posted. I'd like to hear how this unfolds as you. As you continue to dig deeper on this.

[Caller Matthew]

Yeah, thank you. I certainly will. All right, man, before I go, I just want to say thank you for everything that you guys do. You've been a pretty consistent and positive force in my life and many other people's.

[Sal Destefano]

Thanks, man.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank you.

[Sal Destefano]

Appreciate it, brother.

[Caller Matthew]

Dude, thank you very much.

[Justin Andrews]

Have a good one.

[Sal Destefano]

You see, Matt? Yeah, that, that's a. I've had a.

[Justin Andrews]

Great timing for the episode. We just. We just did. I mean, like, that was like. I mean, that was the whole two hours or whatever it was with Shallow. You know, it was just a deep rabbit hole around pain.

[Sal Destefano]

There are things that we're supposed to be aware of that we're doing, and they're supposed to be. There are things that are supposed to be in the background. I mean you could literally if like.

[Adam Schaefer]

You said addressing the autonomic system. Well, I don't think supposed to be autonomic.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I want to point out something too. Like I don't know if I ever barbell back squat, especially when I move decent way and I don't feel a difference on left or I've always get a little more sore on one side or the other. You know, there's a little bit of discrepancy always you have to have, especially when you're moving heavy weight, perfect mechanics to not feel an imbalance and soreness. I mean, I don't know about you.

[Adam Schaefer]

Guys, body corrects these imbalances too. And you have to allow a lot of times for that to occur by removing like, like you said like sometimes you could hyper focus on something and it'll, it'll create this, this distance between where, where you started from. And so it's. Yeah, I just, I think it's just to the point of like. Yeah, like I think it's important that we address like imbalances and corrections. But now we have to like integrate. And so if you're not going to integrate and allow like the rest of your body to you know, work simultaneously together and, and you know, it just has a way of like self correcting if you let it.

[Sal Destefano]

And look, the last thing anybody wants to hear when they're dealing with the chronic issue is it's all in your head. Yeah, that's the last thing anybody wants to hear. And the reality is oftentimes it's both. Oftentimes there is a something that's happening that's physiological. But then the mental part of it, either the struggle around it, the challenge, the focus causes much, much, much bigger problems and makes it look. I'll give you an example, people watching this right now. If you were to just close your eyes and for the next five minutes hyper focus on the feelings in your right foot, I promise you you'll notice things about your right foot. Like it's itchy, it feels weird, it's kind of tilt, it's kind of turned wrong. You become hyper aware of something that you shouldn't be hyper. And you could do this with almost anything. Now imagine you notice something and for five years you're trying to fix it and focus on it. So that's why I'm like look, go rule out the major things like PT neurology. Once the major things are ruled out, like okay, this I may be making something that's not necessarily there. Or there but not nearly as big. And the only way to get away from it is to think about something else and focus a different target.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. What's your guys's take about him going to see like the orthodontist and stuff like that over this? Because couldn't that also be because of all that? Like he's, he's gonna clinch down on one side more and so then they're gonna see some sort of a discrepancy potentially there.

[Sal Destefano]

It's not the he has seen. It's physical therapist, chiropractor sets up here. He's done some interventions. He also sounds like a very educated trainer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the last place, the next place would be a neurologist. Rule out the major.

[Adam Schaefer]

He's trying to rule out almost every angle you can think of.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

And yeah, it's, it's like you said, it's kind of like chasing and it could be.

[Sal Destefano]

And the reason why I went that direction is because it's always a possibility but also because he's a trainer, the way he's talking about this stuff and he was a high performing athlete for a while. Yeah. And there was no major injury. So I'm like, okay, what. This might be something that you're hyper focused on.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Our next caller is Kelly from South Carolina.

[Sal Destefano]

Hi Kelly.

[Justin Andrews]

Kelly.

[Caller Kelly]

Hey guys. How are you guys?

[Justin Andrews]

Good, Good.

[Sal Destefano]

How can we help you? Good.

[Caller Kelly]

I'm just going to read my email because I'm super nervous but so grateful to be here. Love the show. You guys have taught me so much and completely changed how I train. Just can't say enough good things about what you guys do. I love how you talk about your families and the glo. Glorify the Lord. So just everything's great.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you.

[Caller Kelly]

I've been strength training consistently for a year now and I've made some good strides as far as strength. I hired an online coach last year and have been with her close to a year. I'm a 48 year old woman and perimenopause recently started with Transcend. I've been with them a couple months now and they've helped with a lot of symptoms I was having. I know you get tired of hearing this, but I really want to lose fat. I started at about 210. I'm 5 8. I've lost about £10 over this year while eating in a slight deficit about 18 to 1900 calories. Training three days a week and getting an average of about 8 to 10,000 steps. I know my shape has changed Some. And I know I've lost some fat and gained some muscle. No DEXA scan data or anything, just like an electrical impedance scale. But my question is, how should I approach my nutrition? Should I change anything? Do I need to just continue to stay in this depth, Slight deficit, or should I increase calories and do a reverse?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, good question and great job, by the way. So I'm gonna ask you some more questions for better context. Okay.

[Caller Amelia]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

So this is over the last year that you've been really kind of doing this.

[Caller Kelly]

Yeah. And like the first ten pounds came off within the first couple months, and then I've just pretty much been stalled.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Caller Kelly]

How as far as weight goes, tell.

[Sal Destefano]

Me about any changes in, let's say, strength. What have you seen over the last year?

[Caller Kelly]

Definitely gone up in strength. So, like, I know there are good things. I just, you know, want it to be faster. I thought I'll be farther along as far as how my clothes fit and things like that by now.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So strength has been a huge increase.

[Caller Kelly]

Yeah, I would say so.

[Sal Destefano]

Any changes in energy?

[Caller Kelly]

Not. Not that I can recognize.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. And how do you feel about your workouts and all that stuff? You feeling like, oh, man, I'm kind of liking this.

[Caller Lexi]

Yeah.

[Caller Kelly]

Yeah, I love it. I mean, I did hurt myself deadlifting at the very beginning because I had no clue what I was doing, but got over that and I love it now.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, good. And so you've probably. You've definitely built some muscle while losing 10 pounds on the scale. So it's probably more than 10 pounds of body fat if you've gotten stronger. That's why I was asking you that. So do you have an idea of how much stronger? Do you have an example of an exercise, what you used to do and what you could do now?

[Caller Kelly]

Let's see. I mean, like when I started squatting, I, you know, could do the bar and I'm up to maybe like 150-155- yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's good.

[Sal Destefano]

Wait, you went from a 45 pound bar to 150? Yeah. That's good.

[Caller Kelly]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

There's a really good chance you have actually lost a lot more fat than you think.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah. You gained like seven, eight pounds of muscle. Yeah. At minimum.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

If you're doing that. Yeah. That's a very big. You're moving in the right direction.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I think you've done a lot better than you think you've done.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So I. I would say how it feel? I do, I do. So this is like, this is now when the Snowball starts to, to take, to take shape. That snowball effect, that's what I keep hearing.

[Caller Kelly]

I just, I wanted to get going now.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I would personally reverse dieter right now at 18, 1900 calories. Getting strong like that. I would lean into the getting strong and really try and put. Especially if you're enjoying, if you're enjoying, like, seeing the strength go up and you like what you see and feel from that, that I'd actually encourage going up in calories just a little bit and continually do that until I get you a place like, say, 2500 and then come back down. And then I think you're gonna see a big drop from that. Yeah, I just. At 18, 1900 calories, I think her body's just kind of slowed and adapted, so she's not seeing big swings.

[Sal Destefano]

Right? Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's kind of low to cut from, you know, because we would end up around 1400 calories. And then you would plateau live there. Yeah, yeah. And that'd be very difficult. But I wouldn't be surprised, Kelly, if you went up, up, you know, 200 calories a day and saw a little bit of fat loss. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Especially with the strength gain. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So what you say you're training three days a week, is your trainer have you on one of our programs or they. Is she doing her own thing or are he doing his own thing?

[Sal Destefano]

No.

[Caller Kelly]

So I was doing like, you know, push, pull legs, but I had bought Anabolic back in, like, August of last year, and that's when I hurt my back and, you know, just, it was my own fault, but then I switched to her. But I've recently went back to anabolic and I'm on phase two now, and I like the two days a week, but it just works better for me, so.

[Sal Destefano]

Good. And then here's the, like, the other part that we're having got into. You started with Transcend a couple months ago. What do you. Are you on hormone therapy with them?

[Caller Kelly]

Yeah, so I take progesterone and testosterone and the dh.

[Sal Destefano]

This will make a difference, too. Oh, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And I like that. Fearful months.

[Sal Destefano]

You're only two months. You're only two months into it. Kicking in here. Yeah. About six months into hormone therapy, like, things really start to take off.

[Justin Andrews]

I would love to see a 2 to 300 calorie bump. And then what you can do, since you're around 8, 000 steps, kick your steps up to 9, 10, 000 steps a day consistently. That way you don't see anything major weight gain on the scale. But that extra, those extra calories I think are going to fuel you building muscle, which will speed the metabolism up, which will do what I think sad.

[Sal Destefano]

Especially with the hormones.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes, yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. The hormone therapy, the changes start to like, really start to happen. The aesthetic ones, like month, month, four to six is when things really start to kick up. So that's, that's another part that we need to consider. Yeah, I like the reverse diet. I really. And I wouldn't be surprised if you got leaner within the first few weeks doing that.

[Caller Kelly]

So just 200 calories all at once and just kind of stay that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, stay there for a little while. I mean, a perfect world is you stay there for say two weeks and you see no weight gain and if that happens, do it again.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So that, that would be. I know I, there absolutely could be a couple pounds on the scale. I'm not worried about that. Like that's possible, but I'm not worried about it. I also think if you kick up your steps to 9,000 to 10,000 steps, you won't see that. And if we can get away with bumping 2, 300 calories and no weight gain, I want to do it again and really pay attention to how you feel in the gym, strength wise and really push that. So these, these weeks coming up, as you're doing your, your training, you know, stretch yourself to add, you know, add a rep or add five pounds. Like really think like that through the workouts and I think it's going to really serve you.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Caller Kelly]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

I love you in our muscle mommy group too. You'd be great in there.

[Sal Destefano]

You would.

[Justin Andrews]

Have you, have you seen us talking about that yet?

[Caller Kelly]

I have, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah. You gotta come inside.

[Caller Kelly]

I did the quiz and it said I was a strength novice, so I mean, I guess I agree with that.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Go to musclemommymovement.com and check out the group.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. Get inside the group so you can.

[Sal Destefano]

Another thing too, Kelly, is that I've had clients who've on the scale lost 10 pounds, but they keep hearing from people around them that they trust that they look like they lost a lot more. And that's always a sign that it was a lot more body fat than just the £10. And we've built some muscle. So consider that as well. But I'd like to have you back on in about 60 days. Can we, can we, can we follow back up with you in 60 days during this kind of reverse diet. All right, let's do it.

[Justin Andrews]

Not a bad idea, too. If you have access to one of those Dexa scan places where you can get kind of where you're at. I said, I see that you. You hadn't done that. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

A little more definitive.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Worthwhile doing that. Because that, man, that's what can be really encouraging. When you go three, four months, you don't really see the scale go down very much or very little. But then you get the Dex scan, you go, oh, my God, I built 10 pounds of muscle and I've lost 5 pounds of fat. You know, that's Kelly, your squat with.

[Sal Destefano]

300 increase in screen.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's a. That's a really good sign. That is good, by the way, that.

[Sal Destefano]

Your number is also good anyway. 150 pound squat for a woman is really good.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So you're also. You're not.

[Justin Andrews]

Just.

[Sal Destefano]

Didn't get. Just stronger. You're actually pretty strong.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exciting. That's really exciting. Yeah, we want to lean into that.

[Caller Kelly]

Thank you, guys.

[Sal Destefano]

Let's see you in 60 days.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

All right.

[Caller Kelly]

Sounds good.

[Justin Andrews]

All right.

[Adam Schaefer]

All right.

[Justin Andrews]

All right.

[Caller Lexi]

Thanks, Mike.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, when we, you know, when we are judging ourselves, it's really, really difficult. But somebody put on that much strength.

[Sal Destefano]

You know, she down 18, 900, 1900 calories. That's not a lot.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's what she needs to be fed more. She needs to eat more. With the especially strength numbers like that, She's. If she's really consistently hitting 8,000 steps, that's pretty active.

[Sal Destefano]

It's not like, you know, I even ask her this. This is such a tough position to be in because oftentimes what people have experienced, and I should have asked her this because maybe this is her is they've lost and gained weight so many times in the past, and so they're used to being able to lose it quick. Cutting hard, like, cutting real hard. I've lost 20 pounds before and cut real hard. So now they're doing it the right way. Yeah. And they're like, okay, it's taking forever, but the right way, it's not like you're going, oh, one's a fast way and one's a slower way. It's like, this is. This just doesn't work. It's the reason why you gain it back so many times. Yeah, this is the way.

[Justin Andrews]

And the. And the right way is Faster. It's just harder to tell.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

Because of the scale. Because we use, we use the scale as the way to measuring ourselves so much that the, the faster, better. Right. Way doesn't seem like it's faster and better. It's like, it feels like it's slower because you're wanting to see a number on a scale. It's like, no, you, you can't, you can't go off of that.

[Sal Destefano]

But.

[Justin Andrews]

And this is a great example where a client like this, I love to have like a Dexa because I know the psychological part of training for a whole year and feeling like I've only moved two pounds on this kid.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, she threw the hormones at it too, man. You do the hormone replacement therapy.

[Justin Andrews]

This is why I really wanted her.

[Sal Destefano]

That's gonna make.

[Justin Andrews]

She said that. I'm like, you gotta feed. You gotta feed her because she's gonna get strong in the gym, build some muscle.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Our next caller is Amelia from New Zealand.

[Sal Destefano]

Hi, Amelia. Hello.

[Caller Amelia]

Kia ora, guys. Yeah, first off, I'd just like to say a huge thank you. I just love how simple everything you guys make, including your amazing programming, as well as just the content that you put out. So it's you guys reaching millions of people both directly and indirectly. So thank you very much. And yeah, I'd like to talk to you about the impact of hrt, specifically estrogen and testosterone and what they could have on my life, particularly around body composition and training, lifting goals, and also what should I expect as I progress through the HRT journey. So for Context, I'm a 34 year old mum of three kids, four and under, as in I had them within three years. While also doing my PhD in Health Sciences and yes, supporting my husband on our 500 cow dairy farm.

[Sal Destefano]

Wow.

[Caller Amelia]

I have had severe endometriosis. I was confirmed at age 19 along with stage one ovarian cancer. And most recently I've had confirmation of adenomyosis as well. And due to poor life quality. So chronic pain and other symptoms associated with the gynecological history above, I had hysterectomy in March this year. Best thing I did in terms of life quality. I was, you know, I was in pain, on pain medication all day every day pretty much, and couch ridden. Fell for, you know, a week to 10 days every cycle essentially. I also stopped breastfeeding my third the day before surgery. So obviously that has an impact on hormones. In early August of this year, I started getting some random pains and numbness, which I then saw my physio for and she in conjunction with knowing my lifestyle and also my body wondered if it was hormone related and which sort of finalized pushed me to go and see a menopause specialist who confirmed my suspicion that I was in early menopause as a result of having the hysterectomy before the age of 35. Just reduced the health of the ovaries. So I started estrogen replacement therapy late August and there's no need for progesterone given I don't have a uterus. We also got my testosterone checked which was 0.4 nanomoles per liter. So I don't know what that is in your guys speak but essentially it's very low, well below the range. So I'm going to start HRT late November because it's not recommended that you start testosterone until after you've sort of got estrogen all sorted in terms of ideal replacement numbers in that regard. In early May I did a dixa and I was 42% body fat. I'm going to go and get another one today because I've just finished symmetry so I want to see if the imbalances have sort of sorted themselves out and I have a good bone density score in terms of general lifestyle. I strength train frequently. I have previously competed in powerlifting competitions. So my squat got up to 160 kilos, deadlift 200 kilos and bench press 97.5 at my previous or my most recent competition.

[Sal Destefano]

You're strong.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah, yep. That's definitely my strength. Yeah. But then pain and kids sort of stopped me from lifting but I definitely want to get back into lifting. So yeah, I've strength trained essentially on and off to some degree for the last two decades. Like I used it as dryland training for competitive swimming growing up obviously powerlifting competitions and then during and post pregnancies. Is it like you know, just to whatever degree I needed to and yeah, as I said, just finishing up symmetry and I'm going to head into Muscle Mummy on Monday and I'm just doing a dayload week at the moment. In terms of nutrition. I eat balanced diet with minimum 100 and I've said 160 but it's actually close to 180 grams of protein per day. I do have a smoothie or a shake and there just because three young kids morning absolutely chaotic. It's just easier for my life. So I'm not currently tracking but I have previously hence why I'm able to sort of judge around that that grams of protein. So I'd estimate between 26, 2800 calories a day. Drink 3 liters of water, including electrolytes. Unfortunately we don't have LMNT here but it's something similar with good amount of sodium and that sort of thing. Sleep getting better, but obviously still inconsistent with young kids. Case in point, my. My middle literally just woke up a little while ago. So then I had my oldest awake at quarter past 11 last night. In fact he's just awake now. So yeah, so this is my current focus at the moment, getting good in terms of my routine before bed and that sort of thing. So yeah, so just want your advice on how I can sort of optimize body composition and that sort of thing given that I'll be getting better at my ERT and then obviously starting TRT late November.

[Sal Destefano]

Good.

[Justin Andrews]

Doing a lot of the right things. Right.

[Sal Destefano]

You are in the hrt. This is all doctor prescribed doctor monitors. I just want to confirm that, okay, you're good, you proceed the same. There is no difference. If anything, the HRT will help your body respond better with recovery. A mistake people often make with HRT is they are like oh good, I'm on. My hormones are balanced. I'm going to ramp things up, I'm going to push things. But just pretend like you're not on it, train yourself accordingly and then that'll just help the process. I've seen people over train because they went on testosterone or because they went on. Do you check thyroid? How's thyroid by the way?

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah, healthy. All good. And vitamin D is good. The only thing with my most recent blood tests was that my ggt so liver function was slightly elevated but I had a look back in my history just, just yesterday and it's actually decreased like sort of trending more towards the healthier range.

[Sal Destefano]

So what are the, what are your biggest offenders in your diet?

[Caller Amelia]

Well probably like that protein shake. Like I mean I know that it's better to eat whole foods and my snacking. So at the moment I'm actually, because I'm in a deload week, I am doing sort of like a low carb, higher fat just to try and sort of, you know, do a bit of a kickstart literally just for this week and then I'll get you know, back up to my maintenance calories because I, I'm definitely in a deficit at the moment this week because you know, I'm feeling that hunger. So yeah, I'll be ramping that back up to yeah to my maintenance next, next week when I start or actually I'll probably Do it on Saturday.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, so. So I. You're doing every. A lot of things right. You need to track and get. And get a. An accurate number of what you're averaging before we can start to move forward and then put you in a deficit. If you are indeed averaging around 2, 700 calories, you're in a good place to go in a deficit. Being in a consistent 2,000 calories, you'll see some body composition changes, for sure. I like lower carb for someone like you, because oftentimes what you see with women that have endometriosis or any issues like that, they tend to have issues with how they respond to, like, glucose or sugar, and they tend to respond. This is in my experience. Okay. That's why I asked you about thyroid, too, because if your thyroid was off, then I wouldn't necessarily go lower carb. But in my experience, with people like you who've had those kind of issues, lower carbs seems to work better. But we don't know where to go unless we get an accurate number. And what you need to do with your tracking is count everything, including snacks, and get a real number and be like, okay, I'm averaging this every single week. And if it is indeed around 2700 or higher, you're in a great place to go in a cut. Yeah, great place. You drop that 600 calories below, stay consistent. You will see the needle move for sure, especially with your strength.

[Justin Andrews]

And I'd actually only run those cuts for like, two or three weeks and then go back to maintenance. Two or three weeks, Go back to maintenance. Kind of toggle back and forth of like, a good cut, like, good aggressive cut, like Sal saying, for just a couple weeks and then go back. So you're considering how strong you are. You like strength training? Like, I definitely want to fuel that, you know, And I think going back to maintenance will those weeks, you'll feel that and then go back the other way. Just kind of toggle back and forth.

[Sal Destefano]

And Emilia, historically, when I've worked with people who do some snacking and they give me an average of what they think. Think nine. Let's say nine out of ten times, they're actually. They're actually higher than they think. I've never actually had somebody go, well, I think I'm eating this much, and then we start to calculate, and it's like 300 calories higher, but we don't know. So I would track for two weeks. And I wouldn't try to go on a diet while doing this. No, I would just try to eat normal. Yeah, because you want an accurate number of kind of where you're at and then from there, like I said, if you're above 2,600 calories, you could cut and you'll be okay. Cool.

[Caller Amelia]

Thank you very much.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, tonight. Sorry, I was just going to tell you that I don't know if you saw, we launched the muscle Mommy group. And tonight Dr. Lauren is in there speaking and she's a hormone specialist and so she's incredible. So if you haven't hopped in. Yeah, if you haven't hopped in that group, it's such a great group. It's an incredible community of women that are all strength training and trying to build muscle. So it'd be a great, a great group if you're not in there.

[Sal Destefano]

Yep.

[Caller Amelia]

I did forget to mention I'm on your guys concierge coaching.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, good.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, good.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, you're wonderful.

[Caller Amelia]

I prefer that than the.

[Justin Andrews]

That's even better. Well, that's even better. That's individualized for you, so that's even better.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah, exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

I had no idea.

[Caller Amelia]

So I most recently spoke to Will last week, I think it was, and we sort of had a plan to sort of do essentially maintenance for Muscle Mummy and do almost sort of like a condensed muscle mummy. So not the full program is. And probably cut out the last phase of five by fives to sort of align. Starting power lift and a bulk at the end of November when I start my TRT to try and get the Optimus.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

No, you're in good hands.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I love that.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, it's gonna be great then.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Caller Amelia]

I also forgot to mention I'm also on metformin as well to help with the insulin. Insulin management, if you guys met for them.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I'm familiar. Yeah, yeah, very familiar.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah. On the low dose of that with my doctor as well.

[Sal Destefano]

So. So, yeah, lower carb, I think. Lower. That just confirms what I thought. Yeah, lower carb would probably work better. Not zero carb, but just lower carb would probably work better for you.

[Caller Amelia]

Perfect. No, that's sounds amazing. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I just, I just wanted to sort of. I thought the question, you know, was quite good to sort of have. Reduce the stigma of, you know, like taking any replacement therapy during hormone. Yeah, menopause.

[Justin Andrews]

Great, great question. Great steps. You're doing all the right things.

[Sal Destefano]

You're really strong.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I love it. Excited to see this.

[Sal Destefano]

Yep.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah, yeah. Little, little plug for the. In phase three of symmetry with the trip bar deadlift.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Caller Amelia]

Started at literally just the bar for eight and then by the end of the three weeks, I was up to 100 kilos for eight. Pretty stuck with that.

[Sal Destefano]

Good job. Solid.

[Justin Andrews]

Amazing. So good.

[Sal Destefano]

Thanks, Amelia.

[Caller Amelia]

Yeah, no, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time and continue doing what you're doing.

[Sal Destefano]

Good. And hopefully I'll see you on some of these calls. Sometimes we see our trainers working with people, so if I do, I'll say hi.

[Caller Amelia]

Yes, definitely. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Thanks, Amelia.

[Caller Amelia]

See you guys.

[Sal Destefano]

Bye. Yeah, if she's indeed around those calories, which I don't know about you guys, but have you ever had anybody estimate and be.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, yeah, it's always snacking is a good point.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, but, but if she's there, she could cut. She'll be fine. Especially with the strength that she has. Oh my God.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. I like the idea too of toggling back and forth because she likes to build muscle, be strong. Absolutely. I'm gonna lean into that.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, like, like a 2:1 or something like that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look, if you like our show, come find us on Instagram. We'll see you at Mind Pump Media.

[Show Host / Announcer]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love of by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.