2705: How to Quit Pornography with Sathiya Sam

Summary

Mind Pump Ep. 2705: How to Quit Pornography with Sathiya Sam

Episode Overview

In this powerful and vulnerable episode, the Mind Pump crew welcomes back Sathiya Sam—leading expert and coach in helping men quit pornography. The conversation digs deep into the prevalence, science, shame, and social implications of pornography addiction, and provides practical advice for those seeking freedom. The hosts and Sathiya share honest personal stories, strategies that work, and how their coaching program finds the underlying roots for lasting change. Faith, masculinity, trauma, intimacy, and technology all feature heavily in a discussion that’s both raw and solution-focused.

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Key Themes & Takeaways

• Widespread Porn Use & Addiction: Pornography use is more rampant than most people realize, affecting marriages, careers, mental health, and men’s sense of confidence and intimacy.
• The Root Cause Approach: Quitting porn isn’t just about willpower; it’s about addressing root emotional needs, trauma, and identity.
• Compassion, Not Shame: Overcoming shame is at the center of recovery, with compassion replacing judgment.
• Personal Stories That Inspire: Sathiya shares anonymized success stories from Mind Pump listeners and beyond.
• Practical Strategies: Technology hacks, community involvement, and self-awareness practices are key tools.
• Faith and Community: Opening up to trusted groups and, for many, finding faith has provided essential support.
• Societal Impact: Early exposure among children, the influence of tech and the porn industry, and legislative efforts to address access.

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Detailed Discussion & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why Porn Addiction Matters (02:00–02:38)

• Sathiya Sam’s Mission: He helps men not just quit pornography, but rebuild purpose, restore intimacy, and find meaning.
• “...underneath the surface, really, we help men get their lives back on track...” (Sathiya, 02:14)

2. Personal Stories That Illustrate Change (02:56–05:04)

• Story 1: Divorced engineer reconnects with his faith, ends the program clean, ready for healthy relationships.
• Story 2: Busy medical professional saves marriage and remains porn-free for over a year.
• Turning Point: Hitting milestones (like a year clean) transforms one’s self-image.
• “Once it’s a year, you have to evaluate: I guess I’ve changed as a person. That’s not who I am anymore.” (Sathiya, 05:04)

3. The Role of Shame and Vulnerability (06:41–09:41)

• Early stages: clients often only share part of the truth due to hiding and shame.
• Coaches must respond empathetically, never shocked or judgmental.
• “When people don't have compassion for themselves, they have to borrow it from someone else first.” (Sathiya, 08:08)
• Shame, not guilt, has the most damaging effect, pushing men deeper into secrecy and away from healing.

4. Growing Awareness and Opening Up (11:06–12:57)

• Hosts share personal experiences about the struggle to open up.
• Recent years have seen more men—including cultural influencers—speaking out, reducing stigma.
• Reference is made to Huberman and Jordan Peterson’s impact in normalizing the conversation.

5. Stats and Definitions: Prevalence & What Counts as 'Addiction' (14:01–15:48)

• 70-80% of adult men watch porn at least twice a week.
• Defining "addiction" is tricky—small amounts still create neurological changes.
• “As long as you are conditioning yourself to experience arousal from a third party...eventually real-life interaction just doesn’t add up.” (Sathiya, 16:29)

6. Impact on Intimacy, Relationships, and the Brain (16:45–18:04)

• Porn narrows sexuality to pure objectification, undermining intimacy and empathy.
• The real-life effects: more likely to get divorced, higher risk of ED, and relationship dysfunction.

7. Escalation and Neurological Similarities to Drug Use (18:04–20:15)

• Porn use mirrors addiction: increased tolerance, seeking more extreme content, experiencing withdrawal.
• The 'flatline'—blandness or emotional numbness—often hits after stopping.

8. Early Action: Tech Optimization & Habit Change (20:15–22:00)

• Immediate steps:
  • Remove social media from phone (gateway to relapse)
  • Turn off notifications
  • Grayscale the phone for less stimulation
• “Social media is the gateway drug in this conversation.” (Sathiya, 20:24)

9. Societal Impacts & Dark Sides: Industry, Predators, Escalation (22:22–39:05)

• Pornography often linked to other crimes or personal downfall (e.g., Ted Bundy’s infamous statement).
• Easy access and relentless escalation of content inevitably lead some down dangerous paths.
• Discussion about AI and bots preying on vulnerable men online.

10. The Power of Community and Not Going Alone (41:08–43:44)

• Emphasizes the proven importance of connection: “The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it’s connection.”
• Telling the right people is vitally important—judgment-free, empathetic community is key.

11. Women and Pornography (43:47–45:55)

• The gender gap is closing, with female porn use rates increasing, though stigma is even stronger for women.
• Women’s struggles are often hidden or reframed (sometimes as “empowerment”), making it harder for them to seek help.

12. Navigating Disclosure in Marriage (46:33–54:52)

• Confessing is always better than getting caught; it signals integrity despite initial pain.
• Advice for spouses: respond with acceptance and support but not indifference.
• “The best thing they can get is acceptance: 'Hey, thanks for telling me, and I'm still here.'” (Sathiya, 53:37)

13. Dealing with Triggers and Relapses (57:20–62:39)

• Identify personal triggers—stress, social media, alcohol, certain environments (e.g., girls at gym).
• “Your triggers tell you so much... no two people have the same trigger profile.” (Sathiya, 58:55)
• Use positive environmental design: avoid known triggers, build accountability, and use tech wisely (algorithms, removing triggers on social feeds, phone out of bedroom).

14. Tracking Progress & Mindset Shifts (52:24–53:15)

• Focus on trends, not streaks; reframing relapses as learning opportunities.
• Celebrate improvement, not just failures: “You've only watched pornography once in the last 31 days—that's actually pretty damn good.” (Sathiya, 53:00)

15. Impact on Motivation, Confidence, and Masculinity (67:28–71:21)

• Ending porn addiction often leads to newfound life energy, motivation to pursue goals, improved confidence, and better physical health.
• “You start to take some of those risks in life because it’s very confidence-building.” (Sathiya, 71:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Once it's a year, you have to evaluate: I guess I’ve changed as a person.” (Sathiya, 05:04)
• “When people don’t have compassion for themselves, they have to borrow it from someone else first.” (Sathiya, 08:08)
• “The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection.” (Sathiya, 41:43)
• “Trigger diggers—your triggers give very clear data on what your root issues are.” (Sathiya, 58:55)
• “You want your sex life to be 10 times better? Get to that place where you can abstain from [masturbation and porn].” (Adam, 49:47)
• “If the product is free, you are the product.” (Sathiya, 39:32)
• “You are the template your sons will copy and your daughters will marry.” (Sathiya, 80:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Topic Summary | Timestamp | |-------------------------|---------------------------------|-------------| | Sathiya’s approach | Roots-based/quitting shame | 02:14–02:38 | | Success stories | Listeners changing lives | 02:56–05:04 | | On shame | Shame’s unique impact | 08:39–09:41 | | The “Addiction” debate | Defining and measuring risk | 14:01–15:48 | | Tech as trigger | Early intervention with gadgets | 20:15–22:00 | | Industry dark side | Industry, predators, escalation | 22:22–39:05 | | Community's power | Not doing it alone | 41:08–43:44 | | Women's struggle | Stigma & increasing prevalence | 43:47–45:55 | | Marriage advice | Best/worst responses from spouse| 46:33–54:52 | | Tracking progress | Focus on trends, not streaks | 52:24–53:15 | | Triggers & structure | Environmental design, tech | 57:20–62:39 | | Life post-porn | Confidence, purpose, intimacy | 67:28–71:21 | | Parenting & legacy | Modeling for the next generation| 80:30–81:53 |

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Overall Tone

• Candid: Raw truths about addiction, masculinity, and relationships.
• Supportive: Compassion and community over condemnation.
• Practical: Heavy on actionable, science-informed guidance.
• Hopeful: Many have succeeded; you can too.

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Resources and Next Steps

• DeepClean Coaching: deepcleancoaching.com/mindpump
• Technology Optimizer Checklist: DM “tech optimizer” to @SathiyaSam on Instagram
• Community Support: Group coaching, online forums, trauma healing, and more.
• MAPS 15 Program: Free for those who join via Mind Pump’s special offer.

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End Note

This episode is a must-listen for anyone struggling with pornography, those who care for them, or coaches looking for real strategies to support others. It peels back the shame, spotlights the science, and demonstrates that recovery, real connection, and a better life are attainable with the right support.

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Transcript

[A]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[B]

Mind Pump.

[C]

Mind Pump. With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.

[A]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[B]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, we brought back Satya Sam on the podcast he actually has started. He's been doing this for a while now, helping men quit using pornography. He's an expert on the subject, talks about the harms, some of the methods that he employs to help men kind of quit this. In fact, he has a group, like I said earlier, that you can sign up for through this podcast. Go to deepcleancoaching.com mindpump. Now, that comes with weekly live coaching that has him in it. So Thea helps coach men. Like I said, there are group trauma care sessions that are led by certified coaches and you have access to masterclasses on things like intimacy, purpose, healthy relationships, and you're part of a group that helps support each other, break this addiction. Pornography use is rampant. Addiction to it is rampant. The damage it causes, the data now shows, is rampant. So again, if you're a man and you want to get rid of this, you want to become a better man, go to deep cleancoaching.com mind pump. By the way, all members who join that get the program Maps 15 for free. So we'll give you that program for free. Also comes with 30 day money back guarantee. Again, you have nothing to lose. By the way, we have a program on sale this month, maps GLP1. It's half off. This is a workout program with nutrition advice, supplement advice and lifestyle advice for people who use a GLP1. So if you use ozempic, wegovy, tirzepatide, semaglutide, you want to maximize fat loss, you want to keep your muscle, keep your metabolism healthy. Get Maps GLP1. Go to maps glp1.com you use the code GLP50 for the 50% off discount. Here comes the show. So, Thea, welcome back to the show, man.

[C]

Thanks for having me. I had a blast last time.

[B]

Really enjoyed having fun.

[D]

You picked up another kid on the way.

[B]

You did?

[C]

Yeah, it's gonna be a tradition. Like, I'll probably have one or two.

[D]

I waste time.

[B]

Good for you, man. Good for you. So just for people who didn't listen to the first episode, what do you do? Just real quick.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, in short, I help men quit pornography. I think underneath the surface, really, we help men get their lives back on track, find purpose, find meaning in their life, restore intimacy in their relationships. And pornography has been an issue for a long time. I think, I think people are now starting to wake up to just how harmful it is. But a lot of people don't know how to get free. And so we pioneered a roots based approach, is what we call it, to quitting pornography and to stain free long term.

[B]

Awesome, dude, awesome. So last time you were on, you talked about this and you had a great response from a lot of people in our audience. A lot of men reached out and before we went on air, you said you had some success stories from some people that found you guys through us. Could you share some of them? Of course. Keeping people anonymous.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have a long list actually. Like, it was kind of a thing where like our coaches knew if someone was coming through mind pump, they were probably gonna have an awesome result. Oh, really? Yeah. Because I think this audience is very personal development oriented. They understand systems and there's a value for bettering yourself. Right? So that's so great.

[B]

We've heard that from other partners, so.

[D]

We hear that all the time. I love our audience.

[B]

Whenever we have partners that are like, you know, have some kind of a. Or a product that is kind of along those lines, they always report back and be like, you guys send us the best people. So encouraging to hear.

[C]

No, it's really cool. And like the. I picked a couple stories that are maybe even outside of like what you would expect. Like one guy I have here, he was divorced twice, several kids, successful engineer, and his struggle with pornography was at play in both of his divorces. So by the second divorce, he was kind of like, okay, I gotta get this figured out. What was really cool is so he. So he ended the program clean and sober, a completely new outlook on life. He felt ready to commit again, which I know you, I think you've been through a divorce, right? So you could probably speak into that more. But we felt like that was a big deal.

[B]

It is.

[C]

You know, he's gone through it twice now and he's still like, okay, I want to get in another relationship. And the thing that was really exciting for us is he had recommitted to his faith. He kind of totally drifted from it was questioning God after all he had been through all the pain. And yeah, he was like, hey, I'm back in. You know, and he was in a really, really good place. He was actually on some of my calls and he was like one of the best clients. He was always fun to Just ask questions. And very engaged. Sometimes he's on the road, but he's still making the calls. Like he was that kind of guy.

[B]

He was amazing.

[C]

I'll give you one more. I mean, like I said, I keep going. This one really stood out to me. This guy is a high level medical professional. Came in with a lot of shame. And he couldn't, he really did not know how to cope with the stress. He had a growing practice and gained a lot of opportunities afterwards. Two big things. So his marriage, he said it's never been better. Marriage is healthy. They're communicating. He's prioritizing it again, which you, you guys know. Like, you know, you have a practice that's growing or whatever it might be, and then you're struggling with pornography. You don't really feel like connecting with people. But my, my coach actually had just checked in with him a little while ago. He's been clean for over a year.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

So that's really cool. That's a big deal, right?

[D]

So awesome.

[C]

And we had actually talked about this on the last interview, that when people hit the year mark, something changes in their confidence, like the way they view themselves. Because you can quit something that's bad for you for like a couple of months. Weeks. Couple months. You guys were trainers. So you can, you can quit eating bad food for, you know, a little bit, but once it's a year, you're kind of, you have to kind of evaluate that. Like, I guess, I guess I've changed as a person. Like, that's not who I am anymore. And you can say that when you're clean for three weeks, but it just registers differently when you've hit a year or a few years. You know, for me, it's going to be 10 years in February. It just starts to shape the way.

[D]

You view yourself when you first, when you guys first get a client. Is it typical that it's tough to get it out of everyone to talk about it? Or most people, once they've committed to going through the work, they're ready to share and be open about it. Or do you feel like you got to kind of pull the thread a little bit with other people?

[C]

It's twofold. Our content is where we have the most teeth pulling. Right. Like anything on the front end, like on the podcast or whatever, is where we're trying to make people aware of, like, hey, this is a problem. It might be causing more damage than you realize.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

By the time people raise their hand and they join, you know, the inner circle or they're Doing coaching with us. At that point, they've realized, like, okay, this is causing some sort of issue in my life. They might not be aware of the extent of it, but what happens, and like, I was textbook for this, is the longer you have an issue that you're ashamed of, the better you get at hiding it. Yeah. And that doesn't change because you raised your hand and said you want some coaching. So the one thing that we as coaches always have to be on top of is are they actually telling us the truth? And usually they're not. Like, usually you're getting 80% of it.

[D]

So how do you deal with that? I mean, you know that they're. I mean, this reminds me of training clients. We talk about this all the time, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You have a client and you. You. They have their food log, and it's just like, this isn't mathing. So, you know. But then you're also very sensitive to, like, hey, if I hammer them or make them. Or shame them or make them feel.

[C]

Terrible, just hide more.

[D]

Yeah. So how do you. How do you dance that line?

[C]

So when. Okay, when. Anytime somebody's hiding, but they're in an environment where they're trying to get out of hiding.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They will always give you little threads.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

And they want to see how are you gonna respond. They'll watch your facial expressions, your body language, your tone, obviously the words you speak. So you have to be. You have to be so present with your clients. And when you get those threads, you have to give them all the compassion and all the love in the world so that they get that experience of, okay, it's safe for me to actually be a little bit more honest than maybe I'm comfortable being.

[D]

So empathy, a little bit of stoicism almost when they're saying it to you.

[C]

Or exactly like, you can't be like, oh, my gosh.

[B]

You did.

[C]

Right.

[D]

I mean, that's such a great point. Because this is. We talk this. We convey this with personal training. Like, when you get a client and they tell you something like, don't act surprised or freaked out. I used to always tell the trainers, like, be like, oh, that's really common. A lot of people that we have that we train struggle with that same thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Kind of calms them down a little bit. They're like, okay, good.

[B]

I'm not.

[D]

I'm not the only person like that. And I feel like if you don't do that, you could easily send them the other way.

[C]

Yeah. 100%. So, yeah, you. You have to kind of play it like, okay, it's normal, it's not a big deal. But the compassion really goes a long way because when people don't have compassion for themselves, they have to borrow it from someone else first. And that's kind of the, that's the long term plays. We want them to start being kind to themselves. We don't want them to see themselves as hopeless addicts or perverts because they've been struggling with this stuff and they don't have any compassion themselves. So they borrow it from us. And the most opportune time to make that transfer is in those moments where they show a little bit of vulnerability, a little bit beyond their comfort zone. You have to meet them in those moments and then that starts to grow. And then, and then they're like, oh, well, I had a good experience doing that. So then they're more likely to do it again and again and again.

[B]

How big of a. You mentioned shame. How big of a role does that play in the challenge or the difficulty at addressing this as an issue? Because I almost feel like you can. It's so easy. It can be easier to, to admit, yeah, you know, I drink too much alcohol or, yeah. You know, smoke too much weed.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But the shame around, like I got this thing with pornography. I feel like that's a big roadblock. Yeah. And when does it like move you.

[D]

Towards getting help versus, like hiding from it? It's like, it seems like it'd be like a split between the two. The shame factor.

[C]

I mean, I think to answer that question, usually it's when. And this is an unfortunate part of human behavior. Usually it's when the pain of what you're doing outweighs the pleasure of what it's providing.

[B]

Right.

[D]

It's that beta paradox. Right? Beta paradox. Is that what it is?

[B]

So how big of a role does. Does shame play in something like this?

[C]

I mean, I, I think it's the issue.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, because there's something about our sexuality that is inherently. There's always. There's obviously a privacy to it, but as soon as you believe that there's something dysfunctional about it or something broken about it, that's when shame really starts to manifest. And there's a difference between guilt and shame. Right. Guilt is I did something wrong, shame is I am wrong, and shame is much more damaging. I actually make an argument that guilt could actually be valuable.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

In fact, it'd be weird if we didn't experience guilt because then you could do horrible things and have a Psychopath. Yeah, exactly. That's pretty much what a psychopath is. Yeah. Whereas I think shame. I don't know really if shame is that valuable, but it's something we've all experienced. And when you have sexual issues, the message of shame always is hide. Right. If you get discovered, then xyz, then they'll abandon you, they'll reject you, they'll think differently of you. And so it's the hiddenness and the secrecy. That's what actually makes this so debilitating. Not just for Cynthia, who was watching pornography for 15 years, but then you put a marriage at play and. And now you have a partner who doesn't know what's going on. And the shame tells you to hide because if she finds out, she's gonna get upset. Maybe she'll leave you, maybe you'll lose your kids. Like, your head goes to all these places. But the reality is the only way that you actually break out of the shame is by bringing the dark things to light. And so it's a serious challenge. It's the challenge for us as deep, clean coaching.

[B]

So I found that because I talked about my porn. More pornography issues in the past, and for me, I think now it's been almost two years. Wow. Yeah. So it's been almost two years now. And just personal, you know, history. I knew the sec. This. The. I knew what the data showed on the damage. I knew what it did because I'm in health space.

[C]

Right. So I knew what it did. Heard about it, or. How did you find out?

[B]

Well, because I'm in the health space, I, like, I learned this kind of stuff. And I'm like, okay, here. It's changing the reward centers of the brain.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There's. My brain is literally rewiring itself. It's changing how I perceive pleasure, how I perceive reward. It's got data backed negatives to relationships. So it's not like this no big deal thing.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop. Which then told me, oh, like the fact that I can't stop for very long tells me that this might be an issue. Now. It was through faith that I was able to stop it. Through prayer and faith that made the biggest difference. But then moving away from it, I was like, okay, I think I should talk about this. And there was a big block of, like, admitting that, you know, I had an issue with pornography.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I remember bringing it up. I brought it up on the show and the comments I got from men who are like, oh, my gosh, thank you for your courage. I have the same issue. I have this men's group that meets. That's a Christian men's group. And in one of the first meetings, I talked about my past struggles and I brought up my issues with lust, in particular pornography. And. And lo and behold, of course, once I open the door, everybody put their hand. Every single man in that room is like, I struggle with that. So are we reaching a point now? Cause it's being talked about. Ten years ago it wasn't being talked about. No.

[C]

Not even five years ago?

[B]

No, there was no conversation. Are we reaching a point now where the awareness and enough men are discussing it to where more men are coming forward and saying, okay, this is an issue.

[C]

Yes, 100%. And I think, like, in our spaces, people like Dr. Huberman are talking about it a lot. Obviously, Jordan Pearson talks about it a lot. So I think it's helpful that more prominent voices who are trusted are raising the flag on it. And for us, certainly we've seen that. I started in 2018, and so in 2018, it was hard to get people to pick up the phone or respond to an email or whatever. There's a lot more interest and a bit more understanding now I think about it. So definitely it's going in that direction. Plus, kind of like, it's cool to be Christian again, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So because faith has kind of emerged again, these, they go hand in hand. And whether you're, you know, whether it's Christian specifically, generally any faith has a particular moral ethic that would say this is not a good thing for you.

[D]

Do we have stats on, like, how many 1 in 10 men or how many men are addicted to pornography? Do they have good reliable status? Since it's such a shame nobody admits it, shares it. Like, do we have good data on, like. Or have you. Can you give me example of. I got 20 men in a room. I could probably tell you how many for sure.

[C]

Like, oh, for sure. I mean, most of them. 20. Well, it's. Any survey typically shows about 70 to 80%.

[D]

70 to 80.

[C]

Now, not addicted. That's a difficult word to use in this conversation.

[D]

Okay, so define that. Actually define the difference between what someone might think is a healthy amount of pornography versus an addictive amount.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, most, most studies, when they're, when they're talking about high frequency viewership, they talk about two times a week or more, which would be a majority. A majority of people. Yeah, because it's either in your life or if it's around, it's.

[D]

I was gonna Say, I imagine if you. If you.

[C]

You.

[D]

If you do it at all, then two is very minimal, if anything.

[C]

Yeah. But that just gives you an idea of how little is actually required, quote, unquote, how little to actually start changing your brain and doing some of those things.

[B]

You're talking about the issue I have with the word addiction in the. In the secular. I will say definition of addiction with pornography is. Because it implies. Implies that some is okay or there is no damage from. A little bit.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So just a little bit. No damage.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you go past this point, then there's damage. Yeah, but that's not true.

[C]

No. And people do make that comparison to, like, alcohol. People can drink responsibly. So you can watch porn responsibly as well. That's the argument. But you're right. It's. It's absolutely not true. I think the other part that makes addiction a difficult word for this is nobody knows exactly what the criteria is because pornography addiction is. Well, it's less researched, but it also just affects the brain and body differently than alcohol, even different than video games or something that's more behaviorally oriented. So they're still figuring all that out. But I will say a majority of men, like if I walk into a room of 20 men that are under the age of 70. Yeah. Most of them probably have watched pornography in the last couple of weeks. That would be my guess.

[B]

Yeah. And a way that I've used to describe it, and I would love your input on this as somebody that works in this space, is that, you know, when you look at sexual intimacy, the pleasure that comes from it is not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing. That's a good part of it. But pornography amplifies and narrows this one aspect of it, and it cuts out the intimate part. And so really what you're practicing with pornography is complete objectification of a body, including your own.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And that is not a. There is no healthy amount. You are always practicing and training something that is treating people like objects.

[C]

Yeah. That's the danger. Right. It's all the programming and all the messaging, aside from the behavior itself. That's where we see young men having erectile dysfunction. You see the intimacy issues. Studies show that people who watch pornography are more likely to get divorced. That's why we do have that in a lot of our clients that we work with. So all that happens because ultimately, as long as you are conditioning yourself to experience arousal from a third party and something that is perfectly manicured, perfectly produced, eventually a Real life interaction just doesn't add up. And it's a huge issue. A layer deeper is, you know, so our definition, we, because we talk about intimacy a lot in our content, our material, our definition of intimacy is, it's in the word into me. See, that's what intimacy is. And so intimacy is not I'm getting to know you. It's actually more about you getting to know me. And that messaging does not exist obviously in pornography. Right? It's all about the guy. It's all, it's all about, you know, getting your needs met. It's about you getting what you want. And you ultimately become very, very selfish. In addition, in addition to objectifying people, the actual issue with objectifying somebody is that you, you're more interested in your gain in a human relationship than you are in somebody else's. And that's, that's what ultimately makes you a selfish person. So all of this, all of this comes out of watching pornography and you don't realize it. I mean, I got exposed when I was 11 years old. You don't think about any of this stuff. You just think it's, whatever, it's fun, it's thrilling. But then, yeah, you're an adult and all of a sudden you have all these issues in your sexual relationship and lo and behold, it's because of porn.

[B]

One thing that blew me away years ago, before I was, you know, I, I was able to stop, was just how closely it mirrored drug use and abuse. Just how closely, like ramping up of needing more and more stimulus. So like same thing with drug use. This much. Does it, does, does this affect, oh, I use it again. I need more, I need more, I need more numb down effects. Withdrawal is another effect. Can you talk about that for a second? Because you talked about that year point. Mm, let's talk about that. First week, two weeks, month or whatever. And the withdrawal that people go through.

[C]

Yeah, it's very interesting what happens in the body when people first quit. So an extreme version, like we've had clients who get like, they get the shakes like the same way that they're quitting a drug, you know, like they get the shakes, they, they can't think properly. They'll have sweating, all that kind of stuff. Those are extreme cases. They're not super common. What's more typical is you get a kind of lethargic numb. Like everything just feels a bit bland and blah. And, and that's really dangerous for somebody who has a history with pornography. Because that's typically why you watch porn is you you want to feel something again or you want to feel a sense of connection or whatever. So the flatline is very common. And then the other thing that we see a lot of is the professional term would be nocturnal emissions, wet dreams, that kind of idea. Because your body has become so reliant on the orgasm that when you start to deprive it, it will actually start to make it happen in other ways in your dreams and that kind of thing. So the number one question we get in deep, clean inner circle, our community, for people who get started with us is, my dreams got all messed up. I'm having sexual dreams. I'm not watching porn anymore, but my dreams are all sexual now. Like, is something wrong with me? And we just say, no. Your brain and your body are just rewiring and this is just part of that process. And usually, again, it's not an exact science. Let's call it three to six weeks. Usually if you make it past that mark, eventually everything starts to taper off. And so there's kind of like the thrill of like, okay, I'm quitting this. I feel really good the first week, I would say weeks two to six, anywhere in that window, you're gonna have some difficult times and some challenges. And then usually again, this is where like the community coaching, all those things go a long way. They can get you through that period and then they can really get you on track by month two and beyond.

[D]

What are some of the strategies, especially in that first week, in terms of phone usage, in terms of like, you know, being around electronics and access towards it?

[C]

Like, how do you sort of coach that? Yeah, that's a great question. It's funny you mentioned tech because that's one of the first things we go after because it's low hanging fruit. And when people start working with you, they need to see that it's working. And when you're addicted to pornography, you especially need to see that something's working pretty quickly because you're used to gain rewards so fast. So tech is one of the quickest ways. If somebody's listening, this is one of the fastest ways that you can kind of get things on track. So the first thing is, personally, I would recommend just removing social media from your phone. You don't need to deactivate your account, but just get it off of your phone. Because there is a difference between engaging with something on your phone versus on a laptop. And I can't fully explain it to you, I just know that when it's on your phone, it's more accessible you're more likely to engage with it. And social media is the gateway drug in this conversation. It's what leads to 99% of relapses. Other thing would be to turn off notifications. So turn off the news, turn off message notifications, all that kind of stuff. Basically, the quicker you can get away from your phone, the better. And then the third thing, this is, like, if you go a little bit deeper in it, but we'll have people grayscale their phones. I actually grayscale my phone. Have you guys ever done that before?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Makes it less enticing.

[C]

It's crazy. It makes such a big difference. You just think about it, Les. So, like, I mean, a week ago, I averaged 53 minutes of screen time per day. So. And I'm not saying everybody has to be quite at that extreme level, but for me, I just know that if the less I'm engaging with my phone, I'm probably just gonna feel better about myself and make better decisions. So that's actually something we start with people. It's literally in the first module of lessons is we. We give them, like, things to optimize their tech. People want. We do have, like, a little checklist we give away. They can DM me tech optimizer on Instagram, and they can get that for free.

[B]

How. How big of an issue? Because I think one of the challenges with pornography, although there's more awareness now, one of the challenges is it's really not on the list of things that people think about that we need to deal with as a society. Right. Like, what are the top 10, like, bad things that are happening to us? It typically doesn't. How much bigger of an issue is it than people realize?

[C]

Well, I think it's so interesting we play this fine line with content. I'm sure you guys do too, which is we don't really want to be like, clickbaity. We don't want to put something out there just because we know people are going to like it. We want to make sure there's value. But then at the same time, it's kind of everywhere. So, for example, a major recent event, obviously, was Charlie Kirk's killing. And there's this weird side story where there was a guy in the crowd who said, I shot him. You know, I was the shooter. Some old guy had all these issues. Anyways, they detain him, and then they're like, hey, show us your phone. And he doesn't want to show his phone. And they're like, no, you're sorry. You have to show us your phone. And it turns out he has all this child sexual abuse material on his phone. Now, we did not do a story about that because we just felt like it wasn't the story. And it didn't, it didn't. It just felt like a bit of a stretch. But I can tell you in, like, so many major stories and events like that, there is. There is some weird connection back to sexual issues. Whether it's pornography or it's affairs or something like that, it's, it's, it's everywhere. So I think, you know, the 70 to 80% of people that are, you know, struggling with porn, watching porn, whatever, to me, that's. It's probably low. It's underreported. Those are just the people that are admitting it. And, you know, you have extreme cases like, did we talk about Ted Bundy last time?

[B]

No, we didn't. No, no, no. It's so funny. You just brought him up. I just saw a clip of him talking about pornography in connection to that.

[C]

Story's wild.

[B]

Yeah. So talk about this.

[C]

Okay, so Ted Bundy, one of the world's most notorious serial killers of all time, they finally, you know, they catch him, he gets the death sentence, and before he's about to be executed, in the days leading up to it, he has thousands, literally thousands of media inquiries because it was the biggest story of the time. And he only agrees to one. And it's with a guy named Dr. James Dobson who ran a broadcast called Focus on the Family. You nodding your head. So you know who he is. Yeah, yeah, he's great. So, you know, so obviously everybody wants to know why, why, why did you, you know, 29 documented murders and rapes. He would entice these women, he would rape them, and then he would kill them. And so they ask him like he asked him point blank, why do you think, why do you think you wound up this way? He was a lawyer. Like, he was a well to do guy who's well educated. And he said, you can ask me and you can ask anybody in this maximum security prison. He said, well, I'll tell you the same thing. It all started with pornography.

[D]

I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know he said that.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, yes, I saw the exact same clip. Wow. Listen, here's what's gonna happen. People are listening.

[D]

Of course. Well, look, calm the down.

[B]

Here's the.

[D]

Calm down.

[B]

Here's the connection. All right? So are people who, who watch pornography gonna kill people? No, that's the vast, vast majority.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do not however, here's the connection.

[C]

It illustrates a place point, Right.

[B]

When you're objectifying a body constantly. And it's an object. It's an object. It's an object. It's not a human. It's not a real person. Now you can see how you take a troubled individual like Ted Bundy for whatever reason, and you can see how. Now that's a direct. Humanizes. Yes, that's right. Now you can see how that can connect to, well, killing somebody.

[C]

It's just an object, and it's a slow escalation. Right. So I don't know if he detailed this in this particular interview, but it's not like he went from, oh, I watched a bit of pornography to I'm gonna go kill people. But what he did say in that interview was eventually the thrill of pornography started to wear off.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so he needed to seek something else to get his thrill. And that's when your mind can go to some darker places. Now, today, the reason that Ted Bundy's story doesn't get repeated is because people have way more options for sexual experiences online. Because in Bundy's day, it was. It was magazines. I'm trying to remember the timeline. I mean, maybe VHS videos. I think it was pre dvd. But now online, the stories that we get for people that are showing up to us and not. Not everybody's like this, but you get a lot of guys who say, yeah, it started softcore, then it was hardcore, and then it starts to become niche. You know, we have lots of guys who are heterosexual men that watch homosexual pornography. They don't watch it because they're gay. They watch it because that was thrilling for them. Because eventually the other stuff went to vanilla. So novelty, novelty enhances the pleasure. And so I think today you have much more dangerous stuff, much more niche content, weird stuff, things that you think, oh, I would never watch that. That's disgusting. And then a few years later, well, yeah, what you used to watch kind of has worn off. Your brain became desensitized, and so you needed to find something.

[B]

The porn industry has data on that. They actually report that. They report the different top searches, and it gets harder and harder and harder. Core.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And more and more niche and. And strange and different. And that's happened over the last 10 years.

[D]

Are there. Com. Are there common things that you see in, let's say, men that are doing it maybe just a couple times a week versus men that are doing it every day versus men that are going multiple times? Is there, like, common things that that are being impacted in their life based off of their frequency of doing that. Do you see stuff like that? Like, yeah, typically, to your point, like, oh, the guy who does it a few times, it doesn't think it's a big deal. He may not notice huge things, but maybe his intimacy is off with his partner or he has a hard time. Like, are there things like that that you can connect the dots to, like the level of frequency and how much they're addicted.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And how it's impacting their life.

[C]

Yeah. Okay, so. So I would say across the spectrum, they all have one thing in common. And I'll start with that. And then as you go up, there's two factors that I'm going to. Okay, so the thing that every person who struggles with pornography to any extent has in common, it has nothing to do with race, socioeconomic status, income, upbringing, trauma. Literally has nothing to do with that. The only thing they all have in common is they got exposed at a young age.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

That's literally it. And it just goes to show you how important it is that we protect our kids like those. We'll get there, I'm sure, in the conversation today. It's very, very important. The two factors that determine the escalation, and this is Cythiya's theory, just on working with a thousand plus guys personally and all that. It's not necessarily verified. Well, maybe some of it. There's some data behind this. The two factors are boredom and loneliness. So the more bored you are, and I'll translate that as the less purpose you have in your life, I think the more likely you are to escalate along that scale and then loneliness, the more disconnection you have. Not loneliness like, oh, you're a loner and you have no friends. Loneliness like, I'm in a crowd of my friends, but nobody knows what's really going on, that lack of personal connection or. I've been married to this woman for 20 years, but she doesn't even know half of what's going on in my life because I've been so shelled off or so closed off. So those are the two things that I would say really escalated.

[B]

The irony of what you just said is that pornography also contributes to both.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So, Bo, you know, I need some purpose and I feel kind of disconnected.

[D]

Isn't that what he's saying right there? Is he saying that there's a common thread in all of them? They got introduced to it. But then that what you're talking about, as the frequency comes that escalates I imagine the more you're doing it, the.

[B]

More positive feedback loop.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a positive feedback.

[D]

Gets wider with the amount.

[C]

Yeah. Because if I have. If I have a free Friday night and I know I should probably go hang out with friends and they're inviting me out, but, you know, I'm. Maybe I don't want to hang out with friends. I'm tired, whatever. And I stay at home and I'm bored, and I watch pornography. Well, that. Now that. That creates more boredom in my life because I'm not forming those connections. I'm not really keeping any kind of quality of life in my relationships. So more boredom leads to more pornography, and more pornography leads to more shame, like we talked about earlier. And we know that shame tells you to hide and to isolate.

[B]

And so less intimacy. Less.

[C]

Yeah, less connection, more lonely. So again, you can see why this is actually a relatively slippery slope.

[D]

Is there a point where you see, like, you guys have unlocked? So, for example, when we're training clients and you're trying to get them to, say, increase calories, but they want to lose body fat, there's this, like, hurdle at the beginning of like, oh, my God, this is not what I want to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then you start to build some strength in them. They eat. They're eating more calories than they were before, and they're actually starting to see their waist go in or something like that. And then I know at that point I've got them. I'm like, okay, I've taken that person who wasn't sure, didn't trust me, all the things, I got them to follow the plan. It took them about a month or two now, now they see this, and now it's like they're bought in. Is there. Do you see similar. Like, there's definitely. Okay, tell me, what are the things that get them bought in?

[C]

Yeah, so. Well, we talked about it a little bit already, which is the optimizing your tech. And people do see benefits from that. It's, it's. It's a starting point. Um, we have three pillars in our recovery process. So the first is building self awareness. The second is healing your heart, and the third is shifting your identity. When we get to the second pillar, healing your heart. We're very fond of a modality called inner child work. I just think it's the most effective for helping guys heal from sexual issues. That. That is where people go, oh, okay, I think I get it now, because when you start talking about trauma in this conversation, people kind of Tune you out because they're like, I don't get, I don't get how trauma from my childhood is why I watch pornography. It's hard for people to connect those dots. Once you start talking about inner child work and they built some self awareness, usually it's at that point where people go, okay, I think, I think I get it now. And, and again, like you said, once they, once they trust you and they see you know what you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Then you can, you can take them really, really far.

[B]

You talked earlier about the young, the younger that they were when they first exposed to it. The more that's connected to using it more often.

[C]

Greatest predictor for sure, more frequent.

[B]

That probably has to do with just the way the brain molds and models itself. It's a. Your brain is very plastic.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It's no different than the, the four year old kid that grew up in the screaming household. And then what do they end up marrying or they even remember it or not it's been.

[B]

Or they eat lots of attachment or they eat lots of candy. Right. And then growing. I was like, you know, fruit is bland because my brain is kind of molded.

[C]

Yeah, well, yes, but the, the comparison there breaks down a bit because sexual stimulation is processed 20% faster in the brain and body than anything else. So when you. Yeah, so, so think about. So even if we were to run with that and compare getting exposed to really sugary candy versus pornography, the wiring actually happens 20% faster. The dependency, the dopamine hit, all of it comes faster from something that's sexual in nature. And so yeah, I actually didn't know this. Like I think I maybe learned this a year and a half ago. We had a sexual abuse specialist come and speak to our community and he, you know, his name is Dr. Doug Carpenter. He's very well researched on this. He's the one that told me about it and I had no idea.

[D]

Yeah, it's interesting because both of them are connected to things that like eating and surviving would be the food one. Obviously reproducing would be the sex one. So they're both like animalistic.

[C]

They're innate.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. Innate that we need. It's interesting that the sexual one would be so much higher than the food one. That's interesting.

[C]

Yeah. And I don't any thoughts on that.

[B]

I mean especially with men where it's visual so it's instant so you don't have to, you don't have to eat, savor, feel whatever it's. You see, boom. See boom.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Maybe I just process it quicker.

[C]

I think it's because you can eat food and it not be pleasurable. Right, right. You can eat food and, you know, it's good for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But it's not necessarily giving you pleasure. I don't think you can experience something sexual that's not pleasurable as well. Obviously there again, like, there's sexual abuse. I know there's exceptions to that. I'm just talking about a general experience where it's by your choice. I think you have pleasure so tightly attached to it. I think that's what makes the hardwiring fast.

[D]

Nonetheless, I mean, that just highlights why it's so more addicting, which is interesting. Which we know how much sugar and. And stuff like that can be addicting, so.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[D]

Imagine the power of the house.

[B]

I think I was exposed right around the same age as you, around 11 or 12.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Because I went to work with my dad in construction, which is, you know, you got a bunch of dudes working, whatever. And yeah, you're gonna. Yeah, you're helping people. And I mean, it's not a joke. Like, this is. People know this in construction. Porta Potties would have. On the inside of the door.

[C]

No way. The post.

[B]

There'd be a poster or something in there. So I'm a kid. Kid. And then that's one of the first things that I saw. Or you find a magazine and, you know, the helper says, hey, grab me the thing out of the truck and go in there.

[C]

And so we work with military guys who say, like in the bathrooms on base. Yes. You know, there's magazines and whatever.

[B]

Yeah. So I was probably right around the same age as you when I first got. I got to imagine what. And this is in the 90s, so. And in the 90s, you didn't have Pornhub. No. You didn't have any.

[D]

That has to be crazy. I mean, that's crazy.

[B]

I would imagine the average age of exposure is probably younger now.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it used to be somewhere between 10 to 12. It's reported to be as young as eight now.

[B]

So.

[C]

Yeah. So again, I mean, again, whether we're comparison candy or pornography or whatever, you're so plastic at that stage. You're so undeveloped. And again, I think we don't even realize what's on our hands because the next generation that are all tech natives that got exposed at a young age. And then it's not just that you got exposed at a young age, but then it's the volume. The volume of content that you're exposed to the intensity of the content. What's considered mainstream now was considered extreme hardcore 10 years ago. So all of that is programming. Right. And then they're gonna become adults and have all kinds of issues.

[B]

So, Thea, knowing what you just said about the younger you're exposed and how it wires your brain, all that stuff, this is a terrible question asked, but I have to ask it. Are predators online using this to their advantage? Are they purposely trying to expose children? Oh yeah, to program them.

[D]

Did you see the documentary that was, what was the name of it? I brought it up on the show not that long ago where they talked about these kids that are YouTube stars, that 80% of their millions of followers are men between the age of like 45 and 60. 80%. Not like a per. Like you're talking about a kid who has 3 million followers and you're telling me that 2.3 million of them are 40 year old men and it's a 13 year old girl? Yeah, that's how. So of course, I mean that, I mean it's.

[C]

Yeah, I, I can't convince me why.

[D]

That that is, watching that content, other than those types of reasons.

[C]

No, for sure. No, I think pedophilia, all that stuff is through the roof because you can, you can bait people online very, very easily. And to be honest, the biggest predator is the industry itself. Like, kids don't get exposed to pornography at a young age by accident. They know what they're doing. So there's tons of that going on for sure. And I would say again, we don't work with kids. We don't even really work with people that are that young. Usually people start working with us around early 20s at the youngest at that stage. The thing that we're seeing more now is people are getting duped online by bots and explain AI So. Well, I'll give you an example. So I worked with a guy beginning of this year. It's a, it's a really terrible story. He's. He's high, pretty high up in management, hotel management, sorry, hospital management. And you know, he has a good career. From the outside looking in, he looks like he's kind of got it all together. His, his daughter walks in on him watching pornography and I think she was maybe late teens, leaves the home, doesn't want anything to do with him. So he, he's already kind of in shambles, right. And so he comes to us, he's explaining all this. It's a really, really difficult story. And he goes, yeah, but he said that Wasn't actually the worst of it. He said, it got worse during COVID So we're like, okay, what happened? He said, well, I was really stressed. You know, like, he's in. He's in medical care. So obviously it was a really stressful time for them. He said, I didn't know how to cope. So I went to pornography. Pornography was eventually not really cutting it for me. So I wound up having a few affairs. We've heard this story before. And so I said, okay, how many? Three. Okay. All at the same time over the span of time? He said, no, it was three separate. They were all within the span of about a year and a half. I said, okay. Does your wife know? Yes, she knows. She's devastated. You know, whatever. Whatever. This is actually a really good example of what we were talking about earlier, where he was telling. Everything he was telling me was true, but I could just tell, like, there was more. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It was disconnecting. Yeah. So I just said, okay, well, how did the first affair happen? How did it start? Well, it was. He's like, yeah, actually, all three affairs were. Were mostly online. They were emotional in nature. There wasn't really a. There was kind of a sexual element, but not a physical element. I'm like, okay, you know, all right, whatever. And he's like, yeah. After that first affair, I actually discovered I was talking to a bot the whole time. I was like, okay. And what about the second and third? He's like, yeah, same thing.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Three affairs. He had three. Three. Three emotional affairs, online affairs. And he was. He was being cond. They were bots.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[C]

So that, again, we've been talking about, like, this AI revolution.

[D]

What is the desired outcome for the person who's controlling the bot to do that? Like, what is he. What are they getting? What gain are they getting?

[C]

He. I mean, he might have paid for something in there. It wasn't necessarily necessarily a part of our. That initial conversation. Interesting. And it wasn't really part of our focus, to be honest.

[B]

But.

[C]

Yeah, but the other thing is, you know, even think about the thing about pornhub. Like, pornhub doesn't charge you. So what? How do they make their money?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Your attention. Yeah, Right. Like, if the product is free, you are the product. So it. Yeah, those. Those bots would all work the same way. They're probably getting your attention, and somehow they're monetizing on the back end, if I recall.

[B]

It's so funny now, I'm thinking back, like a drug Dealer. You go to your drug, your drug dealer. Let's say you get your drug and he's always got something stronger. Hey, you want to try this thing, right? This other thing? No, I'm not interested. I just like this. Whatever. Yeah, but he's kind of like this little suggestion.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Now that I recall, it always blew me away how porn sites would have the craziest suggestions. Or on the page, I'm like, what is this? I'm not. Are they doing that because they know. Of course they know. That's how they get more and more hooked.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So they're offering. Or probably their algorithms are showing things that are more extreme or things that you're like, that's weird. That's. No, I'm not cool with that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

On purpose. Knowing that that's. Yeah, it's going to get you for sure. That is very nefarious.

[C]

They know the escalation, right. They know the path that happens here. And they don't. They don't force it. They just. They just present it, like, show it. Hey, this is an option. Right. And they know that eventually, again, it's like, all good. It's really. It's like all good advertising. They know that eventually, if they just kind of stay top of mind long enough, you're probably gonna make a decision. Right? Because eventually your life circumstances will change. I mean, we kind of, to be fair, like, we kind of do that. On the opposite end, we release, you know, just like you guys, you know, four or five episodes a week on our podcast. We try to be really present because we know people listening to us.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

They're not gonna listen to us and be like, oh, wow, I'm addicted to pornography. I need help right away. But we know that there's gonna come those moments, and we want to be there for them. And the industry just kind of does it on the other side of it. Right. They're just trying to. They're just trying to push you further and further down that rabbit hole.

[B]

How important is working with a support group or putting this out in the open, you know, like, versus the guy who's like, I got a problem. I'm going to deal with this on my own. Versus the guy that's like, you know what? I'm going to go through your course and work with some people or talk to some people about this.

[C]

Yeah. There's a great verse in the Book of Proverbs. It says, he who conceals his sins will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will find mercy. And, you know, the research equivalent of that is the opposite of addiction, is not sobriety, it's connection. I don't know if you guys have.

[B]

Ever heard that before.

[C]

So it all kind of dovetails into the same thing, which is that the more you try to do this alone, the less likely you are to succeed and the more likely you are to stay addicted. And I knew this because I studied the research and I knew this even just from, like, reading scripture and all that good stuff. But until we added a more communal element, like some group coaching, and now we have, like, a thriving online community of guys from around the world quitting. I did not realize actually how important that was for guys to realize. Number one, I'm not the only one. Number two, if I have a difficult day, there's somebody I can call. And number three, we're like, we're in this together. We're pursuing this goal collectively. It's very, very powerful, and it's probably more powerful than anything else. I mean, we stand by our system. We swear by it. I'm a big system guy. Our coaches are amazing. But I think the community is probably the best thing you get. And one thing I just wanted to clarify is because I used to say, if you're doing this alone, you got to find someone to talk to. But I had people, they'd message me on Instagram, or we get people writing into our podcast, and they'd say, hey, I told somebody, but they kind of judged me. Or they didn't get it. They looked at me weird, and I thought, shoot, I'm not being specific enough. You can't just tell anybody, but you have to tell somebody that you know isn't going to judge you. Or ideally, you tell somebody else that you know is on that same journey as you. And I think that's why our community has had such success already, is because people just know by being there. There's this understanding of we all have the struggle. So the D shames, but also we're all on mission together.

[B]

Can I just clarify too, with judging? Because people get that. That not judging, they get that totally mixed up. Not judging doesn't mean you don't know what's right or wrong or good or bad. When people use the word judging, the way you're using it mean you're not being looked back down upon.

[C]

That's right. Differently.

[B]

Right. So you have a really good friend that you trust. You tell them this issue. It's not like they're like, ah, it's not a big deal. You're Fine. That's what we're talking about. They're going to say, okay, man, this, that is an issue. But I, I, I'm here for you, bro.

[C]

Yes. They're going to treat you the exact same way after that conversation.

[B]

That's right. Okay. So along those lines, and I know women suffer from this as well, but it's much more prevalent in men. This is much bigger problem.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it's about two to one the ratio of porn viewers.

[B]

There's a lot of women that have this issue.

[D]

That much women, huh?

[C]

Yeah, it was 36% last year, and there was actually a country that had more female porn viewers than men.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

So interesting.

[C]

That would not have been the case even a few years ago.

[B]

So, generally speaking, it's more men, and I'm imagining that the female rate is growing because they're getting exposed at young ages as well. So they're probably getting conditioned just like men are.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you said it earlier, right? Men are more visual. So I think it'll always be more men viewing than women. We have a lot of women that still reach out to us. Right now, we only work with men. But I think the reason is because at the core, people are viewing pornography for the things we talked about earlier. Connection, a sense of purpose or meaning, you know, some way of feeling alive. And whether you're male or female, you'll have those desires.

[B]

I can imagine. I almost feel like I've heard some women talk about pornography as being empowering for women, which is wild. What a wild message. Like, it's good, you know, your body. And it's like, whatever.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's such a crazy message to me.

[C]

Yeah. Well, yeah. Cause Trump actually passed a bill that banned revenge pornography. And AI, I think it was, AI generated pornography.

[B]

Oh, good. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. And then out of it was this uproar, like, obviously, you know, of like, oh, Trump's anti women. He's trying to suppress females. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Because I guess the argument is that women earn a living through these things, and so you're robbing them of a chance to, to earn a living. Now, for that particular bill, the bill literally had nothing to do with that. It was a total misnomer. I have no idea why those arguments all came up, but even that argument in general is just fatally flawed.

[B]

So strange.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, on the other flip side, I would imagine that the fear of expressing pornography addiction or challenges from a woman have gotta be higher because either a, you could be viewed yourself and be objectified like If I talk about have a porn issue now, people are gonna think I'm, like, this. Hypersexualized. Yeah, whatever.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or the shame, because, oh, my gosh, I'm a. You know, I'm a woman. So I can almost imagine it's, like, divided. Either I feel like I'm empowered or I feel like this is way too embarrassing.

[C]

It's tougher for women that are struggling for sure, because of that additional layer of stigma.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's one thing to say I have an addiction. It's another thing to say I'm addicted to pornography. But it's another thing to say I'm a woman addicted to pornography. And then there's just not as much help out there. So that, like, we've had to work really hard to try to vet people, to find people that we trust to refer these women to that reach out to us, because it's difficult.

[B]

So here was where I was going, though, because it's still more men than women. But nonetheless, here's where I was going with it. A lot of these men are married, and I can imagine the fear and shame, that potential shame they have of sharing with their partner. If a partner. If a wife or a girlfriend has a boyfriend or husband who's talking about this, what's the best and worst thing they can do to help the situation?

[C]

Yeah. Okay, good question. Now, just to drive your point home a little bit, they did a survey of OnlyFans users. And I actually had a former OnlyFans. Like, she used to run an OnlyFans agency. She had, like, a radical conversion to Christianity and left the whole thing. But she was telling me some really interesting stats, and I think it's 89% of OnlyFans users are married men. Do you guys know that?

[B]

Yeah, I did.

[C]

Yeah. So this is a really, really pertinent question for our time in our day and age right now, if you're okay if you're married. So I'll backtrack a little bit. We believe heavily in this concept called the relationship bank account, which is that in a marriage, you are always either depositing or withdrawing from the account. There's only two ways, right? So, you know, you do something sweet for your wife, you put a deposit in, right? And then, you know, you say something you shouldn't have said. You said something dumb. Okay. A bit of a withdrawal. So obviously, you always want there to be a surplus in the balance. When you are a man in a relationship with someone else and you are struggling with pornography and she's not aware you Only have two options. You either confess or you get caught. Both are a withdrawal. Only one is a deposit. So she's gonna. She's gonna be hurt either way, whether she catches you or whether you confess. But if you confess, it signals a degree of integrity and a degree of, hey, I'm willing to come clean. I'm willing to do something about this. And so it simultaneously puts a little bit of a deposit.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Great way of saying that.

[C]

Yes. And so it's so important that you take the first step if you really care about your loved one, if you really want that relationship to last, the way you stack the odds that it's actually going to make it through is that you come clean about what's going on.

[D]

You know, there's. There's. There's another selling point to this that we haven't really touched on, that I thought was really fascinating. Something that Katrina and I, like, unpacked in our own relationship. Now, this has never been. I told Sal before we've. When we. He was going through his thing, like, I've never really had, like, a addiction to it. In fact, last time was a month ago, time before that, months before that. So it's, like, really infrequent. But part of the reason why it's that infrequent is because it was a couple more times than that than. Than before we came over here and met.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And I remember Katrina and I talking about where we had, like, a week or two where there was no. No outside. I'm gonna go further than I probably should here. Talking about masturbation at all.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And the level of intimacy that was increased in that quick of a short amount of time. It was like this hack that we. We hacked into.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

To the point where my wife and I communicated all the time. And we know that if we abstain from that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

The level of intimacy that we have is on another planet. Great intimacy. And that was always good.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But by abstaining from that, it's incredible what it does for your relationship. And we always said, we always justified the, you know, infrequent pornography and stuff like that in. Because it was like, we already had great sex. So it's just. It's fun, it's different, it's unique. Every now and then it's like, oh, we haven't done something like that in months. Let's do that. But when we don't and we abstain from both the pornography and masturbation. Holy. Does the. Our sex life crazy better.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And so to me, I Think that's a big selling point for a lot of people that are in relationships that are also dating. Pornography is like, you want your sex life to be 10 times better than that. Get to that place where you can abstain from that, because that goes through the roof.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, how could it not? You know, if you think about it, because you only have so much sexual energy in one person. And if all that is reserved simply for intimacy with your partner, it's gonna be through the roof. But we are such a sexualized culture that we don't even know what that is. Cause like you said, there are people like this who, you know, you view pornography infrequently or whatever. There's little behaviors, little things that you kind of do here and there, and they're just little drains, little sucks of your sexual energy, and it can really limit your relationship. So I do think you're right. I think that's a huge selling point. And longevity. Longevity in. Well, longevity in a relationship is way higher when you're not watching pornography and you don't have any of these other kinds of things going on. Because not only is the sex itself really good, but we know that in addition to sex being a physical experience, it's also emotional. And so people are much more emotionally engaged. That's one thing we hear back from the spouses of our clients is, I don't know what you did to, you know, I don't know what you did to Steve, but he opens up more, he talks more. He's more present in the relationship. He's there when we're having a conversation. And obviously, if she feels more connected to him emotionally, she's going to be way more engaged when they engage sexually.

[D]

Now, I imagine what I'm talking about impacted me so fast because there wasn't really a level of addiction there. And so I saw it real quick, just by measuring, oh, wow, this is two weeks. And none of that. This is what happens. Does it take more time for somebody who probably has. And maybe that's why that's not enough of a selling point, is because maybe if that person who's addicted every week, they do it a handful of times or more, goes to one or two weeks in a row of not. And then having sex with a partner, they don't see enough of an increase right away, you think? Or do they. Right away? Is it. They could really.

[C]

They could. I mean, the hardest clients for us to work with are the people that watch pornography infrequently. Oh, interesting. Because the. Yeah, well, there's a couple of justification of it, maybe. No, you just have less data to play with.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Because their temptation cycles are longer there. There's not. There's not as much going on in between that you can pull on, so you have to wait longer. Yeah, this is something that, again, we get a lot of pushback on this, but this has been like the thing that's made us so successful. We don't believe in street counting, so we don't really ask how long it's been. I mean, we do ask how long it's been, but it's not really a focus. We believe in tracking trends. Did I talk about this last time?

[B]

No, no, no, I don't think so.

[C]

Okay, so this, I think it actually has relevance for diet and stuff too. But you guys could argue me on this. If you're trying to count streaks and you go 30 days and day 31, you watch pornography, if you're streak counting, that's a failure. You're back to the drawing board again. You start all over again. But what I observed, and I discovered this very early on working with clients, is they had made so much progress in that 30 days. And if we could reframe that slip as, yeah, it was a mistake, but it's just a bump in the road.

[B]

Look at your trend.

[C]

Yeah, look at your trend instead.

[B]

We talk like that all the time.

[C]

Trend, perspective. You've only watched pornography once in the last 31 days. That's actually pretty damn good. Right? And all of a sudden it's a. It's a reframe. And now we can actually learn from this. We call it leveraging relapses. Not that you have to have slips, but if you do, let's learn from it and then let's keep moving forward. So, yeah.

[B]

So backing up the question I'd ask. I'd love to get into this. What's the best thing and the worst thing a partner can do when their.

[C]

Partner comes up to them and says.

[D]

I forgot where we're going there.

[B]

I don't want to circle back.

[C]

Okay, so sorry, you're asking the best thing for the partner.

[B]

Yeah. So you go tell your wife, hey, I've been watching pornography. What's the best thing she could do based off what you've seen? And then what's the worst thing she could do?

[C]

So I think I can say what the best thing is, but I don't want somebody to. To feel pressure, to reply a certain way because it's very painful. Generally, it's very painful for a woman. To hear this. So the best thing I would say to a partner is, however, whatever you feel, if you feel really upset or you feel whatever, it's fair. You don't need to feel bad about feeling upset about it. If I'm talking purely from the lens of the person who's sharing the news, what's the best thing they can get? The best thing they can get is acceptance. Hey, thanks for telling me. And I'm still here. And also, a little bit of. But you got to get your crap together because we have guys who are like, yeah, my wife doesn't really care, but I can see it's ruining his life. And I know that if his wife cared a little bit more, he would care a bit more and he'd get his life back on track. So the compassion part is good. Some understanding and some, like, I'm here with you. That's amazing. But also, like, I think it's okay to communicate. This is really serious, and you need to take this seriously or else. Xyz.

[B]

Right? So it's. It's.

[C]

So.

[B]

It's what it sounds to me like is grace. And then real love. And real love is not like, yeah, it's fine. It's like, hey, look, I get it. Thanks for coming to me. Like, let's. Let's. I'll help you with this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

This is something that I think we need to work on.

[D]

Is it. Is it common for men to turn to pornography because they're not getting any sex in their. In their marriage and life?

[C]

Is that something very common?

[D]

Okay, so how do you deal with that? Because that's gotta be a challenge.

[C]

It is a challenge. Especially when, okay, so, sure, you have. You have a sexless marriage for whatever reason, but then sometimes you just have, like, natural bouts where you're not having sex as much. Like a pregnancy. Right, Right. Or your wife has just delivered a child. So that's actually when a lot of guys start to fall off the deep end. It's a major life transition or especially having kids. We hear this one a lot. So I think those are actually really good opportunities to figure out what is really the most fundamental question of this whole conversation, which is, what is porn offering me? What is porn offering me? Because if you can answer that question, you can come up with a superior alternative. It's offering me connection, so you find other ways to connect. It's offering me a sense of purpose and meaning in life. Okay. Like, if you don't know what pornography is offering you, that's when you're very blind. And this can become a really hopeless situation. So, I mean, you know, my wife and I, we just had a kid, we just had our second, he's seven weeks old. So much less sexual activity right now. And so for me, number one, I prepared for it a little bit, I'm aware of it. But number two, it's actually a great opportunity for me to be like, okay, what are the needs that are coming up? Because sometimes we do use sex, even in a marriage, we can still use sex sometimes to meet needs. And there's a healthy part of it, and there can be an unhealthy part of that. And so it's just a good opportunity to see, okay, what's coming up, where are my needs, where are my desires? And, and so we just encourage people leverage those moments when they happen. Now, if somebody's in a sexless marriage because the wife does not want to have sex, she's withholding sex because of trauma. She doesn't trust whatever it might be. We have a lot more, obviously, like a lot more empathy for those guys. It's very, very difficult. That's where our first pillar of recovery is really valuable, building self awareness. Because typically what we found is if there's one thing that is going to unlock that barrier, it's going to be emotional connection. And most guys that are struggling with pornography don't know how to foster that. So that's something we teach. We help them build skills to foster emotional connection so that if there is something traumatic going on that's causing her to withhold sex, she's at least willing to talk about it now. And if she's talking about it, then you can actually go somewhere with it. Or if she doesn't trust you because maybe you did something and she's not telling you what you did, but you know you did something. If you're. Again, if you're showing her love, you're showing her care, you're showing her that it's safe for her to be herself. Eventually those things will surface and you can start working through them.

[B]

How important is it to understand your triggers? For example? Could be social media, could be a friend, you know, a group of friends. Different conversations.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And again, this is like, this is what you would do with an alcohol. With a recovering alcoholic. It's like, hey, one of your triggers is these two guys you go out with all the time. You guys always drink.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe don't go out with them or maybe don't, you know, hang out, you know, next door to the bar where there's access or whatever.

[C]

That's such a, that's actually a really common one. Alcohol. Alcohol is also another like kind of gateway drug, quote unquote in this. Because your inhibitions are lowered, right?

[B]

Yes. I'm imagining more slip ups happen after a few drinks than they would.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. 100%. Interestingly enough, because like I said, I was going through files of people that had come to our program through Mind pump. And one thing that I observed actually in a lot of their, we do like, you know, we kind of do an intake process just to understand their stories a bit better. And one thing that was very common was girls at the gym. Girls at the gym is a really common trigger which was really interesting. So triggers, we have an exercise called, we call them Trigger Diggers. And I believe that triggers can actually give you very clear data on what your root issues are. Because that's what we're always after is what's actually underneath the surface. What's the root of this. And people don't like the sounds of that because it sounds very arduous. It sounds, it sounds like so much work and it's very kind of ethereal. And you got your root issues, but you gotta pay for 25 sessions with me before we can really get to it. That's what everybody's kinda used to hearing, right? But this is in the second video of the course we teach Trigger Diggers. And Trigger Diggers is just basically, hey, give us some of your more recent triggers. And through a series of a couple really pointed questions, we can start to get to some of the more root issues. Your triggers tell you so much. They tell you so, so much. And no two people are, how do I say this? No two people have the same trigger profile as in you and I could both experience the same thing. I'm really triggered by it. And you walk away like it was just ordinary because they're not always sexual. Like, you know, maybe somebody at the gym who's dressed a little bit more provocatively or whatever. That, that's obvious.

[D]

But I mentioned there's ones like stress from work and so.

[C]

Exactly.

[D]

I bet there's sometimes someone feeling a lot overwhelming and then they're going to chase that dopamine mean from something else.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. So knowing your triggers is really, really important because it's actually, it's empowering. So we have like, we have this thing called a progress tracker. You, you track every single day. Were you clean? Yes or no? And then what were your internal and your external triggers? External triggers is somebody at the gym. It's a project at work. Internal triggers is. I'm stressed. I don't feel like I'm good enough. I'm worried about my performance. Like, it's, it's those kind of more, you know, deeper inner stuff. What happens after a while is you start to see some patterns emerging. I was actually just going through a client's progress tracker last week. I was looking at his triggers and there's a lot of different things on it, but I just observed, I just said, it seems like every single day before, a couple days leading up to a slip, you're always really tired. So I said, what's going on there now? He's got some medical stuff going on. I actually referred him over here. I said, you should listen to these guys, they'll help you. But he's got some health issues going on. He's feeling a lot of fatigue. And that's a really good example of you wouldn't really expect it. But then it kind of makes sense because when you're tired, your inhibitions are lower. And maybe you can fight it for a day, maybe you can even fight it for two days, but if it lingers long enough, eventually you're gonna give in. And now, because he knows that now, he can figure out the next time he feels tired. He can't let that go a day.

[B]

Right.

[C]

He's got to figure out something to get his energy back to be sharp again. Because he knows where it's going to lead otherwise.

[D]

I mean, this is so similar to how we coach people nutrition.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[D]

When we coach people with, oh yeah. When someone goes and binges a bowl of ice cream, it's. There's something else there. And many times it's that trigger. And they, they're not, there's not aware of it. They just think it's the ice cream. It's like, no, there was something that happened.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

In your day.

[C]

That's a good point.

[D]

And same type of stuff. It could be stress related, like that could be celebration that triggers it because there's like, you make a connection to things.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Could be a lot of different things. But finding, making, getting to a level of awareness where you understand that is step one. And then being ahead of it, going like, okay, maybe this is where I'll go take that walk instead of what I normally do, go to the refrigerator and hit the ice cream. But becoming aware of it. We talk a lot about this.

[B]

I'll just give a personal account because I think identifying your triggers is so important. And for me, one of the Most powerful. There was a story in Genesis, and I had to look it up to make sure it was in the right book. Where Joseph is. Goes to his. His bosses. Essentially, he's hanging out with his boss's wife. She's approaching him and coming after him, and he runs away. He literally doesn't stay there and be like, no, he knows himself well enough to be like, I'm going to run away. And so for me, it was immediately averting my eyes. And so this could be on social media. And, you know, what happens with human nature is that we like to play with temptation. So it's like, you know, I'm not really doing the thing, but I like to kind of tiptoe on this temptation a little bit. And so what I did early on was I would immediately avert my eyes. So if I noticed that there was a trigger, I'll use the example of a gym. This didn't happen to me. But let's say I'm in the gym and I noticed something, I'm gonna go on the opposite side of the gym and not look. Yeah, Literally avert my eyes.

[C]

Knowing for success.

[B]

Exactly. Knowing that this is a trigger. Just like with a client who's like, oh, yeah, I have these issues with food. I'll be like, don't have it in the house.

[C]

Yes. Right.

[B]

Because if it's in the house and you see it, you're kind of playing with that temptation a little bit. Good luck, you know, avoiding it entirely. Or you're just going to make it really difficult and terrible for yourself.

[C]

No, it's such a good point. And it doesn't take a lot. Like, this is why the tech stuff you were asking about earlier, Justin, is so valuable, because it just sets up your environment to make the choices that you want to make.

[B]

Yes, Right.

[C]

The same way that clearing the junk food out of your house goes. And I think. Yeah, I just think those are. Those are easy wins, and that's where the community is really valuable as well. Right. Like, somebody can. Even your. Your programs would be another example. Somebody can. Can buy the program, and some people will be able to do it on their own, but a little bit of accountability can go a really, really long way. I did. I did Anabolic a few years ago, and I remember every time I did a workout, I would put you guys on because I just. I wanted to have the. Like, I wanted to have the voice in my head reminding me to do, like, don't half ass the exercise. Do it all the way through. Yeah. You got five sets of Calves just do it anyways, like, whatever it is, you know, like, just. You need those voices reminding you you can't do this alone. And I think that's why that's such a big deal.

[B]

And one last thing I'll add with just with social, I think it's a great idea to turn it off. But let's say you don't. You have to. You really have to consciously change your algorithm. So what I would. Did. And now my algorithm is different. But what I did early on was if there was something, an ad or a post that I felt was, like, a little too triggering for me, I would click in most of most. I think all social media outlets offer this. You can point at the top, right, and say, I don't want to see this, or I want to see less of this.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. And I made a conscious effort every single time.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And it's still to this day, if I get an ad and it's for something and I'm like, oh, that's a little. I'll click on. I want to see less of this. Take it off. And what it does, it keeps my algorithm.

[D]

They don't want you to know about that feature.

[C]

Yeah. They tuck it away, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It'll take. Before you. You noticed, like, the content that was showing up was different.

[B]

It changes pretty quick.

[D]

Oh, yeah. I didn't do it that way. I just did it by purely liking all the things I wanted. Like, I. I shifted my entire page.

[B]

I did both. So I said, want to see less of this? Want to see less of this?

[C]

A good one. Yeah.

[B]

Now it. It changes the algorithm quickly. Here's the kicker, though. This is how crazy these algorithms are. They adjust on the fly.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you. If you stop doing that, it'll slowly.

[C]

Hey, what do you think about this?

[B]

Why? Because you'll see a post that, okay, it's kind of fitnessy, maybe slightly, but that's not a big deal. And you hover on it for a split second longer than you would on another post. Algorithm picks it up crazy before you know it. So I do it every time to this day. Now I have to do it a lot less because I did it early on. But anytime I see anything like that, I go see less of this. I consciously do it to change.

[D]

Think about. We're drawing these parallels to pornography and addiction and stuff like that, to people struggle with nutrition and eating and binging and all those things like that. Literally. This is like a person with pornography. Addiction is like a person with food Addiction walking around with unlimited groceries in their pocket at all times.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Like imagine that you have a client that binges on sweets at all times. They are literally a reaching into their.

[C]

Candy bar in your pocket and they.

[D]

Can have whatever they want. I mean, that's what.

[B]

We're different. Don't walk through the aisles that have the stuff that's gonna, you know, that's gonna play with, it's gonna take.

[D]

But with the phone, it's on you 24 7. So I mean, I would, I would imagine, I still, still completely disconnecting has to be the best route.

[B]

It is crazy how the algorithm will start to move in the opposite direction. And I don't even know how. Sometimes I'm like, what's going on here? And it'll be a news thing because they use sex to get your attention. Everybody does it.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So I don't care what news outlet it is, what political content, whatever fitness content is. Fitness content is rife with, you know, sexual imagery.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I will consciously be like, less, see, less, see, don't see this. I don't want to see this. And you have to do it constantly.

[C]

Yeah, that's really, that's a great piece of advice because one thing we tell our clients is the first 30 minutes. Go the first 30 minutes without your phone at all when you wake up in the morning. Yeah, yeah. It just shifts your brain chemistry significantly. And actually another thing. So 91% of people watch pornography on their phone. And the most popular time to view Pornography is from 10 o' clock at night to midnight. So if you charge your phone outside your bedroom, you literally just stack the odds back in your favor again of just having a good night's sleep and not falling into any temptations late at night.

[B]

So how long is your. Do you have different courses or do you have one standard one? Like how long are they and what.

[C]

Does it typically look like? Yeah, so the inner circle is our community based kind of model. And so those are for. It's from people around the world. It's less than $2 a day. And you get our system, you get the community, and you get coaching from us. That's a great starting point for people who just kind of want to get a taste of what it's like to work with us. And I think for people that are either in a more serious situation or they want this resolved and they don't, you know, they don't want to cut any corners. We have a program called Signature, and that's our coaching package that specifically we've Had a thousand guys go through. Well, more than a thousand now.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

So cool.

[B]

And I just want to encourage a man listening right now that may feel some shame around this. Throughout history, some of the most powerful, successful men have fallen due to lust. The presidents, emperors, you know, the. The great heroes of the Bible. David, you know, God's chosen one, you know, lust got him. So this is something that I think a man needs to face and deal with because I don't care how great you are, this is an Achilles heel for a lot of men. And if you face it, then you can reach your full potential.

[C]

Yeah, I'd love to hear from you because you said it's been around two years. Something like that.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

What have you noticed in, like, what's changed in your life since you're so much.

[B]

Oh, so much so. I mean, it's dramatically improve the intimacy with my. We had great intimate, you know, sex life before. Way better now.

[C]

What's better about it?

[B]

Oh, just, it just. It's. The act of it is better. It's more intimate. My wife was. I always found her very attractive now, which is like, irresistibly attractive. I feel more respectful in general, less object, you know, objectifying other people. Yeah, it's changed. Just, Just quite a bit. I mean, it's, It's. It's profoundly different.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I was curious because I think when I was here last time, you were around six, seven months.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And it's cool. Like, I know I've been kind of following a bit of your, like, even your faith journey and some of that kind of stuff, because it, it happened the same time. Right. Like, you, you gave your life to Jesus.

[B]

And it was shortly afterwards. Yeah, it was shortly afterwards I just. That became quite aware. I knew this was an issue before, like I said, through the secular data. I was like, okay, I need to stop this. Not good for my brain.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not healthy. I know what the data is showing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was really hard to do. It's so accessible. So whatever.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then through prayer, it was actually Lent. Now, I don't necessarily practice Lent, but I'm like, I'm going to give something up.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, oh my God, am I going to give. This is going to be a tough one for 40 days. And I prayed and I prayed just very humbly and like, I need help or whatever. And praise God, he took it from me.

[C]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. So that was like an overnight, that's so cool kind of thing. And I know it doesn't happen like that for most men. But sure, I think he saw in me that there's no way this guy.

[C]

Needs a little help.

[B]

He's like, I'm gonna take this from you, bro, because you're screwed if I don't do that. That's at least what I think.

[C]

So at what point did you tell the other guys?

[B]

Oh, right away.

[D]

No, you go before.

[B]

Oh, I did, yeah.

[D]

Even before he was. Even before he was Christian. He. He talked about it openly. We would. We've all. I mean, one thing that's been so such a blessing, and I think this is so important. Back to your point with community, is that not a lot of men in their 40s plus, have relationships with other men that they can share vulnerable things like that.

[C]

Definitely. Yeah.

[D]

We've. Selfishly, it's one of my favorite parts of what we've created here. It's great we have this business, but we also have this ability to share with each other what we're all going through. And so he would. He would talk about that. He, you know, he was working on it, trying to struggle. And I remember even before that, when he would go for a little bit, like, ah, shit. You know, and he was talking about it, and then once he made that switch, like. Yeah. It was literally overnight. Overnight, yeah.

[B]

Different. So it was pretty cool. Yeah. I'm glad you said that. Adam, I think men need, you know, what's that? Iron sharpens iron. As one man sharpens another. You. There's a myth that men tend to believe. People in general believe this, that I can do anything. I can handle anything. But for men, it's amplified. It's like, it's. I'm weak if I share. I'm weak if I. I got to do this. I can do this. I can handle anything. Or whatever.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You need other men in your life, and so find good men you can trust who can call you out on your stuff, but at the same time, don't look down on you and support you. And it's incredibly powerful when you have that.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it shows you the power of connection, too. Right. Because obviously, like, you had that connection with God gives more purpose in life. I mean, it's one of the best things we see when guys quit pornography is they start that business they always wanted to start. They ask that girl out they always had a crush on, like, you. You start to take some of those risks in life because it's. It's very confidence building, actually.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I have had the speculation that what we're seeing in young men in particular. Like we grew up in the 90s, pornography existed, but it was hard to get by. It was, it was not like as easy it is now. Yeah, I think that drive that, that especially when you're, you know, becoming a teenager, 14, 15, 16. I feel like that drive forces you to get out of your comfort zone, get out of the house, present yourself to some girls and talk to them, which is not something small. Like women have way more discernment than men. So you gotta kind of put yourself together. You can't be a loser. You gotta learn how to be funny, show some charisma. Gonna get turned down. All right, pick myself back up. Like that's a great learning process. And I feel like now you got 14, 15 year old young man who are zapped of that they're neutered. Cause they're at home on pornography so they don't go out and take those risks. And I know this cause we have young. I remember we had this young guy work for us a while ago and he talked about going to a party and Adam was like, oh, you know, how do you talk to girls or whatever? Oh, well, first you find her social media profile, then you add her. Yeah, I'm like, you're at a party with.

[D]

She adds you back, then you say hi. If she says hi back, then you can go over and go talk.

[B]

It's like they're, they're not developing the skill of going up. And this for a man is a big deal. The ability to. Because, you know, we go out into the world, we're supposed to lead our families. We got to do these things like the early stages that like, I gotta go out and present myself to a group of girls and I gotta kind of put myself. I can't look, I can't be a loser. I gotta kind of like. And you, you, you forego that because you're in your room watching pornography and it's absent energy, so you don't have that drive.

[C]

So interesting.

[D]

I'd love to see the data on what you're saying with young men in pornography and video games. I think the combination of the, just the evolution of that. And I know every time we say that guys get, oh, they get mad.

[B]

With the video game throw.

[C]

Video games, Yeah, I was a gamer.

[D]

I played video games. But the video games in the 80s compared today is so different. The science that has now gone into gaming and understanding how to keep people addicted to playing for hours and hours is just so far advanced than when I was a Kid. And so the combination of that with pornography is just like, you just can't win.

[C]

Right. Like, I had John Deloney on my podcast. Yeah, yeah, he's amazing. Yeah. And he just, he just said, it doesn't matter whether it's video games, whether it's social media, it's your phone. He said, you just can't win. Like, you just can't win. Like you really have to guard against or you have to just abstain.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

They are saying though, that what is Gen Z? Right? There's the generation coming up.

[B]

Seem to be more aware.

[C]

More aware for sure.

[B]

There's also revival happening. A huge percentage of them are turning to. To faith, which is pretty remarkable.

[C]

It is really cool. It's exciting to see.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[C]

I wanted to go back to something that you said a minute ago. So talked about like a young man being able to present himself, pursue a woman. Have you guys ever heard about the, the eye tracking study? This is, it's a little bit. It's like eight or nine years old now. This is a. Specifically guys watching pornography. They, they track the eye movements to see what do guys pay attention to the most when they're watching pornography. Any guesses?

[D]

The dick.

[C]

Didn'T even think twice about that.

[D]

Was that right?

[C]

So that was second. Very close second.

[B]

We knew this because we read an article on this and we talked about it. Yeah. A lot of dudes are like, no, it's like, well, that's trekking. Right? That's what's happening.

[C]

And well, interesting because this is a fitness podcast. There's a study that showed men who viewed pornography were more likely to have eating disorders and exhibit eating disorder behavior. And I believe it's because of that. It's the body dysmorphia of like, oh, that's what a guy's supposed to look like. I can't compare yourself.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And I think that could fuel some of what we're talking about of like, oh, these women are expecting perfectly sculpted body with a 12 inch, you know what? And I just can't compare. So, you know, we play it safe or like they kind of go the digital avenue. But the first thing that was the most viewed was the woman's face.

[D]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Not her body, interesting. The face. So it just goes to show, she goes, face pizza.

[D]

You know what the brain's doing goes face. Oh, no, I don't know if I could get it with that.

[C]

Yeah, well, I don't. Well. And I haven't watched pornography in 10 years, but most videos I watched ended with something that showed both of those at the same time.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So again, there's science behind that because they know that's what guys are looking for.

[D]

Interesting.

[C]

But the face, I thought that was so fascinating that it wasn't the woman's body. Because that's what you would think. Because you think this is such a physical, sexual thing. But where do you actually experience someone's emotions? Or where do you actually experience connection?

[D]

Well, that or your, you're measuring both. Your brain is saying, like, is this something, someone I'd be attracted to? Which I think is typical. We would look at someone. Someone's face and then the next thing is comparing yours to theirs. If you measure up and it's all subconscious. Right.

[C]

Of course.

[D]

Any dude goes into a thing like, I'm gonna watch this so I can watch some dick. I think you watch it, but subconsciously your brain looks at the girl right away and goes, am I attracted to her or not?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And then the very next thing is comparing the dude.

[C]

Yeah. Do I measure who gets her?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Do I measure up?

[D]

Am I like him? Could I do this?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not proud to say this, but like I, I got so obsessed about like size and all the things that were presented there that I was, I would measure myself because I had to. Like, I didn't know if I, if I added up or compared. I was an insecure teenager. And you know, like, it, it plays into that stuff big time.

[B]

Yeah, it does. It's very. It distorts things quite a bit. It's quite poisonous and I think it's understated just how poisonous it is. Yeah, it's the most accessible, damaging thing that we have right now in society.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

It's just absolutely crazy. Which brings me to the next thing, which is, do you feel my view on this has changed radically?

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Do you feel that it should be regulated so that only adults have access?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, 100%. I believe that, yeah. Because of everything we talked about earlier on how this affects minors, how minors are more likely to be targeted, and just the simple science that just shows somebody who watches pornography at a young age, especially with the kind of stuff they're watching right now, the way it positions them for relationship, quality of life, I think it's a no brainer. So there's lots of states now that are passing more age verification laws, which I think is good. It's not a perfect step, but I think it's a really good step in the right direction. I'D definitely like to see more.

[B]

Hates it because they hate it because every time they pass a age verification law, porn use goes down. Of course, of course they hate that.

[D]

Oh, I can imagine. I mean, I'm all for that. I think you should have to put, put your id, driver's license in to be able to even access the website. Yes, I think that right away would, it's not going to stop and porn's not going to fall off, but it absolutely would keep the 11 year old superior.

[C]

Yeah, superior, exactly.

[D]

No, I, no, I'm, I would definitely be for that. Is there, is there even a possibility that really getting enough traction to go the entire country.

[B]

Some states did it and then what happens is the largest porn sites will lobby against. No, not only lobby, they'll.

[D]

They'll.

[B]

What's it called? They'll be like, fine, we're not going to, not going to allow.

[C]

Yeah, they've, they retracted it from the state. Yeah, they did that with Texas, I think.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Pornhub in Texas.

[B]

Fine. You can't see us in Texas then.

[D]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. To which Texas was like perfect. Thanks. Yeah.

[D]

Oh, interesting. I didn't know that you can't see. Wait, you can't see porn in Texas.

[B]

Porn Hub.

[D]

Well, that's like the site.

[B]

Yeah, but there's so many others. But, but the point is that that was their way of that was they boycotted like, fine, you're going to ask people for id.

[D]

We're not, you know, there. That's them leveraging and trying to get.

[C]

Like they're to trying, trying to piss off the adults, the other people that.

[D]

Are making the decision like the judges and the people like that.

[C]

Trying to piss them off. Yeah, exactly. And I don't, I don't think it worked. I actually don't know where that one landed. But I, I think, I think again we have an obligation as the adults of our society to protect the minors 100%.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So I just think it's a no brainer. Especially like I said, it's the literally the greatest predictor that somebody would develop a sex addiction or a porn addiction is early childhood exposure.

[B]

Cynthia, it's also connected. I'm sure you know the data. It's also connected to violence, drug abuse.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

It's connected to all, all metrics of dysfunction in society are connected to.

[D]

Well, this goes back.

[B]

Pornography exposure and use.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And they don't want to talk about that.

[D]

No, this goes back to how he started this. The, the controversial interview with Ted Bundy. Right, That's Why he said that is that obviously all those guys in prison aren't in prison for the same thing. You know, they're all. The one thing they probably had in common is that. That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So I would like to see more. I'd like to see more legislation, for sure. But I really do believe the best education happens in the home.

[B]

Of course.

[C]

And I love to see parents talking about it more, understanding it more. We were talking about this before we hit record, you know, when we were pregnant with our first kid. I didn't explain this fully off air. When we were pregnant with our first kid, everybody said we were having a girl. And for some reason, I was like, yeah, I think we're having a girl. I was really excited about it. And then we had the gender reveal, and it turned out we were having a boy. Now I was really excited about having a boy as well. And then probably, I don't know, the next day I woke up and I had this pit in my stomach like, oh, I'm having a son again. I don't know exactly what was going on at the time, but as I thought about it more, I realized my dad meant so much to me as a kid growing up that I felt way more pressure having a son.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Cause I felt like he was so important to me. I need to be like that for my kid. I was kind of feeling the pressure. That's something I really had to pray through and talk to God about and kind of work through and be like, okay, I'm gonna do my part, and I have done my part to become a healthy man. And then when we were pregnant with our second, I remember thinking, oh, I've already worked through this. Whether it's a boy or a girl, I'm good to go. And we didn't do a gender reveal. We just found out in the delivery room we had another boy. And I felt it again. And I thought, what is this? I've worked through all this before, but I just realized you can fool one set of eyes. But once you have another set of eyes on you, the more kids or the more people that are watching you, the more to me, the more the call there is to be upright, to be a standard, because. And this is something that I really try to drive home with my clients, I really do believe, for fathers in particular, you are the template that your sons will copy and that your daughters will marry 100%. And so there's a responsibility there when you're having kids. And so, again, I love the Legislation. I really, my heart is, I want to see the father step up and not just say, hey, there's this stuff online. It's not good. If you find it, let me know. You won't be in trouble. Those are all good conversations to have when your kids are young. But I want to see fathers who are saying, hey, I struggled with this. I got over it. It was the best thing I ever did to myself. And I don't want you to fall into the same thing. That's what gets me up in the morning and why we do everything we do to help guys quit porn.

[B]

That's great motivation. I think another piece is, is that I think, and men know this intuitively. Be the man that you know you would respect the most. And I think if you had a man that was leading you, a boss or a coach or whatever, the man that dedicates himself to one woman who doesn't watch pornography and doesn't like, that's the guy that you're more likely to respect that man than this say, everything else being equal. But he has issues with those things. And so it's like, you want to be that guy 100%.

[C]

Yeah. And again, I think that's why what you guys do is so important. And it's why I said earlier, people that come from mind pop, generally we know they're going to get great outcomes in what we do because they want to better themselves. They understand how to follow a process and they generally. You have that deeper sense of, you know, I'm not just in this world to make money and to have a nice car and whatever there's. Once you're more purpose driven, you understand the importance of, you know, the quality of your relationships. That's the quality of your life anyway. And that, yeah, your kids only get one dad that they're gonna really look up to and emulate your. Your wife only has one husband that she's looking to for safety and trust and everything else. To me, I just can't think of any greater motivating factor to quit pornography and to really be above board. That's awesome.

[B]

You're doing a great job. The site is deep cleancoaching.com mindpump and we've partnered with you so super excited.

[D]

To be partnered with you.

[C]

Yeah, dude. Yeah, that's right. And I think people that join through There can get mass 15.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

They get coaching from you. They get Mass 15 for free.

[C]

That's really cool. And I'll just add really quickly. Sorry, I know you're trying to wrap this, but there's a scripture in first Corinthians it says he who sins sexually sins against his body. Yeah. And again that's I think why when people are struggling with this stuff, they fall into erectile dysfunction or even just bad eating habits. And some of the stuff we were talking about earlier. But on the flip side, we have so many stories of guys who quit porn. And then like we have one guy who he always wanted to run an ultra marathon and when he quit porn, it gave him the confidence to actually train for it. And so, you know, a year later he ran an ultramarathon. So many stories like that of guys who take better care of their bodies. I was talking with another guy who, you know, he never really wanted to lift weights. He never really got it. But once he quit porn, he like, yeah, he wants to go to the gym and he started lifting weights, taking better care of himself. And now he's got all these opportunities to date and all that kind of stuff. Stuff. So that's why I'm excited about offering Mass 15 is it's not just like a, a cool. It's an honor to partner with you guys. You guys are so amazing. But I really do believe like there's so much value there cuz for somebody who's listening that is struggling with this, that wants to get free. Yeah. This is now a great resource for somebody to not just get free but to better their lives, better themselves and really step in everything that God has for them.

[B]

That's awesome man. Thank you so much. And again, we're excited to work with you brother.

[C]

Thanks for having me guys.

[A]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pomp. If your goal is is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, Performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is Mind Pump.