2731: The Ultimate Muscle Building Diet (Without Getting Fat)

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2731: The Ultimate Muscle Building Diet (Without Getting Fat)

Release Date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge

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Episode Overview

This episode of Mind Pump focuses on the real science and practical strategies behind building muscle without excessive fat gain. The hosts dive into why most people overcomplicate the “bulking” process, common mistakes, how to set up an effective muscle-building diet, and how to troubleshoot plateaus. The latter half features listener call-ins about body recomposition, stubborn plateaus, smart use of AI in fitness, and healthy approaches to exercise during different life stages. Adam also opens up about his recent struggle with Kratom withdrawal, providing raw insights into addiction and recovery.

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Main Discussion: The Ultimate Muscle Building Diet

The Problem With Traditional Bulking

• Most People Overeat When Trying to Gain Muscle
  • “People mess up—they try to build muscle and either gain body fat or nothing at all. We’re breaking it down for you.” —Justin Andrews [04:46]
  • Sal recounts eating “a bucket of chicken for lunch” during a past bulking phase, only to find most gains were fat, not muscle [06:00].
• The Scale Isn't Everything
  • “You jump up ten pounds, do a body fat test and realize eight of it was fat. And then you justify it—‘I'll just carve off that fat’—but when you cut, the muscle goes with it.” —Justin [05:53]

The Slow Nature of Muscle Gain

• “Muscle building is a slow process. A pound a week is very fast—four pounds a month would be crazy, and even pro bodybuilders are pumped if they get 10 pounds in a year.” —Sal [11:33]
• “Five pounds of lean mass can be almost half an inch on your arms. It’s a lot.” —Justin [12:38]

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Setting Up A Muscle Building Diet

1. Calorie Surplus—But Not Too Much

• Aim for 500–1000 Calories Above Maintenance:
  • “You have to eat in a surplus, but not as much extra as you think. A 500–1000-calorie surplus is ideal for most people.” —Sal [08:36]
  • “If you go much more, you add body fat. Much less, you get nowhere.” —Justin [10:20]

2. Protein Intake is Paramount

• Target 1–1.5+ grams protein per pound of goal body weight:
  • “Every client I’ve ever trained who struggled with putting on muscle missed on the protein. You want at least one to one and a half grams per pound—more is fine, because you’ll inevitably have days you fall short.” —Sal [14:16]
  • Tip: Set your target high—if you aim for 300g and only hit 220g, that’s still solid.

3. Carbs Are Not the Enemy

• “Watching people try to build muscle on a low carb diet is futile. You can do it, sure, but it’s just so much harder. Carbs are protein-sparing, help you perform better, and are easier to eat in volume.” —Sal [15:17]
• “Pick carbs you digest easily: rice, potatoes, quinoa. Bread and pasta aren’t as great if they cause bloating or slow your digestive process.” —Sal [16:59]
• Most clients do better avoiding gluten-containing carbs during a bulk, but experiment to see your tolerance [18:18].

4. Use Whole Foods First, Shakes as Insurance

• “Whole foods are just better—people do better with them, feel better. Use protein shakes as insurance at the end of the day if you fall short. Don’t rely on them for every meal.” —Justin [20:37]
• “I did a whole contest prep with shakes and bars. Looked fine, but on whole foods I felt and looked noticeably better. There’s something there.” —Sal [21:57]

5. Meal Timing & Prep: Structure Matters

• Meal prep and time management are essential when targeting high calorie/high protein intake.
  • “Start your day with a high protein meal, manage your meals, and don’t get behind. That’s why bodybuilders are so regimented—it keeps you on track.” —Justin [22:17]

Superfoods for Muscle Building

• Suggested "Muscle Building Superfoods":
  • All meats (including chicken and fish)
  • Cooked vegetables
  • Berries
  • Eggs
  • Rice and potatoes

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Notable Quotes & Moments

“The most compliments on my arms I ever got was when I was the leanest, not when I was the biggest.”
—Sal Di Stefano [12:56]

“You want a protein target so high that if you fall short, you’re still hitting what you need.”
—Justin Andrews [14:08]

“Trying to bulk on keto is so, so difficult. It’s not just about calories—it’s about digestibility and ease.”
—Sal Di Stefano [16:28]

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Deep Dive: Adam’s Raw Kratom Withdrawal Story

[32:29–57:46]
Adam shares in detail his experience with quitting Kratom after years of use. He describes the insidious way the supplement crept into his routines under the guise of being “natural,” how physical dependence took hold, and how the withdrawal process was more brutal than he imagined.

• "I haven't slept in five days. I'm through the worst, but not all the way through. You feel like your skeleton is trying to escape your body." —Adam [41:08]
• On suffering as part of recovery:

  "When I was praying about it, the thing that came to me was—you need to suffer. I can't justify a slow taper. I need to feel all of it so I remember." —Adam [42:17]

• On the risks of banning kratom:

  “California just banned it, but now the stronger stuff is still on shelves. That’s going to push thousands of addicts to the streets for fentanyl.” —Adam [47:05]

Adam’s full account emphasizes how easy it is, even for disciplined fitness professionals, to fall into addiction and the necessity of support and suffering for meaningful recovery.

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Listener Q&A Highlights

Ariel from Florida — "How Can I Get Leaner and Combat Back Tightness?"

Timestamps: [63:58–79:56]

• Summary: Ariel is highly active but feeling “puffy” instead of lean, plus she has ongoing mid-back tightness.
• Advice:
  • Consider cutting gluten for 30 days and see if inflammation/“puffiness” subsides.
  • Add daily mobility: “Every hour, get up and do 3–5 minutes of mobility—cat/cow, 90/90s, full-breath breathing.”
  • Ensure micronutrient coverage: Add a multivitamin, vitamin D, and consider a small calorie increase.
  • “You’re very active and probably undereating for your activity level—bump protein, calories, and watch your intensity.”

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Austin from Indiana — "Down 65 Pounds But Stuck — What Now?"

Timestamps: [81:44–88:40]

• Summary: Austin lost weight by slashing calories and working out constantly, but now he’s plateaued and stuck at very low calories (1500–2000 kcal).
• Advice:
  • “You need to reverse diet. Increase calories gradually (300–400 at a time) and switch to a strength program (e.g., MAPS Anabolic).”
  • “Take your calories slowly up to your maintenance (around 3200), focusing on strength gains. Your body will adapt and let go of more fat as you rebuild metabolism and add muscle.”
  • “Don’t obsess over the scale! Use waist and strength as progress markers.”

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Stacey from Kentucky — "How Do I Progress and Beat Menopausal Belly?"

Timestamps: [89:24–95:41]

• Summary: Stacey has started a 2–3 day/week strength training plan and wants to know when to increase weights and if she should add cardio for her “menopausal belly.”
• Advice:
  • Increase weights when current reps are too easy; don’t fear adding weight even if you can't hit all reps.
  • Don’t over-focus on intense aerobic work—walking and strength training are ideal.
  • Most important: build a routine you enjoy and can maintain for life!

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Kevin from Alberta — "Should I Use ChatGPT as My Trainer?"

Timestamps: [96:09–107:06]

• Summary: Kevin, an experienced athlete, has been using ChatGPT for programming and seeks feedback.
• Advice:
  • AI is great as an info aggregator and planner for highly motivated people, but lacks the relationship and psychological "coach" elements.
  • "Humans outperform AI in real coaching, accountability, and knowing when to push or pull back."
  • “Right now, AI is a yes-man. It won’t challenge unhealthy tendencies or know when you really need something different than programmed.”
  • Best-suited as a hybrid: AI for data crunching + human coach for strategy/regulation.

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Actionable Muscle-Building Diet Takeaways

• Eat 500–1000 calories above maintenance—not more.
• Focus on high protein (1–1.5g/lb target body weight).
• Use easily digestible carbs, avoid gluten/bloating foods if tracking inflammation.
• Rely on whole foods; use shakes as a last-resort.
• Prep meals and plan ahead or you’ll fall short on intake.
• Track progress by strength and measurements, not just weight.
• Progress is slow—even small muscle gains make a big visual difference.

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Noteworthy Mind Pump Insights & Quotes

• On Body Transformation:
  “Chasing a number is arbitrary—you could change your look by gaining just a couple pounds of muscle and losing a few pounds of fat.”

• On Gluten:
  “Most of my clients—even those not celiac—do better cutting gluten while bulking.”

• On Recovery & Suffering:
  “We underestimate how much the suffering we go through in the process reinforces the lesson.”

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Listener Segments Timestamps

• [63:58] Ariel from Florida — Activity & Bloat
• [81:44] Austin from Indiana — Plateau after major weight loss
• [89:24] Stacey from Kentucky — Menopausal training adjustments
• [96:09] Kevin from Alberta — AI coaching vs. human trainers

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Final Thoughts

For Building Muscle Without Extra Fat Gain:

• Slow, steady surplus
• High and consistent protein
• Carbs for fuel, opt for easy digestion
• Whole foods first and plan your meals
• Track strength and measurements (not just the scale)

Quality of Life:

• Don’t rely solely on the scale for validation.
• Prioritize recovery, mobility, and mental health.
• Seek relationships—in coaching and in life—that challenge you, not just please you.

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Find more at: mindpumppodcast.com • @mindpumpmedia

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Transcript

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[Sal Destefano]

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[Justin Andrews]

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[Sal Destefano]

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[Justin Andrews]

Pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump Mind Pump. With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.

[Doug]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[Justin Andrews]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode. Callers called in and we coach them. It's our favorite thing to do on air. But this was after the intro. Today's intro was 59 minutes long. That's where we talk about fitness and muscle gain and fat loss, current events, personal stuff. It's always a great time. By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this one, send us your question. Send it to mplifecaller.com this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Manukora. This is Manuka Honey, the highest concentration of the compounds that are antimicrobial. Okay so take this and it's anti inflammatory. It's good for your gut microbiome It's a great post. Workout carbohydrate. This is a superfood if there ever was one. Go check them out. Go to manukora.com, that's M A N U K O R-A.com mindpump. By the way, they're having their biggest sale of the year. You can get $150 off their black Friday starter kit. This episode is also brought to you by Zbotics, the pre alcohol drink that makes drinking way different. So if you drink it, it's a probiotic, by the way, that has been genetically modified to break down some of the negative byproducts of alcohol. So you take it, drink alcohol with your friends like you normally do. Guess what? You feel way better. It really works. Go to ZBiotics.com mindpump25 that's ZBiotics.com mindpumP25 Use the code mindpump25. Get yourself a discount. Also, everything is on sale. It's a Black Friday sale. It's 60% off. 60% off. Every maps workout program, every program bundle, every guide, every mod site wide. 60% off happening right now. Go to maps fitnessproducts.com, use the code BLACK Friday. By the way, every purchase enters you into a contest. Two people are going to get a one week free vacation at the Mind Pump Park City House, plus $1,000 travel voucher. Fifteen people are going to get personal training for three months by our trainers. And by the way, an additional 10 people, we're adding a new prize, are going to get the chance to hang out here at Mind Pump for the whole day. And you get to hang out with the fitness director, Kyle. You're going to want to do that. He's a handsome guy. Again, go to mapsfitnessproducts.com, black Friday is the code. 60% off everything. Here comes the show T shirt time.

[Doug]

And it's T shirt time.

[Adam Schaefer]

Ah, shit, Doug, you know it's me.

[Sal Destefano]

My favorite time of the week.

[Doug]

Two winners this week. One for Apple Podcasts, one for Facebook. The Apple podcast winner is CMNN Hot. And for Facebook, we have Jennifer Dixon. Both of you are winners. Send the name I just read to itunesindpumpmedia.com include your shirt size and your shipping address and we'll get that shirt right out to you.

[Sal Destefano]

All right, real quick, if you love.

[Kyle]

Us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs or training gear [e-mail] I'm talking right now, hit pause, head.

[Justin Andrews]

On over to my pumpstore.com.

[Kyle]

That'S it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Justin Andrews]

Let's talk about diet. The ultimate muscle building diet. Notice I said muscle and not fat. A lot of times people mess up, they try to build muscle and they either gain body fat or nothing at all. So we're going to break it down for you. We're going to keep it simple. This is how you gain when you're training hard and you want to eat in a way to get results.

[Sal Destefano]

I love this conversation because I think it's more difficult than most people think. There's this tendency when you're trying to build muscle or gain weight that you're never eating enough.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

And so, and you, you'd rather overindulge than under because you are constantly paying attention to the scale and you. And it's like it's not moving. I mean I know you and I relate a lot to this. Like I used to weigh myself three times a day right after I ate, you know, and I was like, I had a target number. I was looking at the scene scale like I gotta, just another sandwich or another, another shake I gotta do. And what that ends up leading to after, you know, three, six months of bulking is you might have gained some weight especially if you were disciplined and aggressive with it. But a lot of times what's discouraging is you go take the body fat test. You're like cool. I went up ten pounds. Like eight of it was fat.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it was muscle. It was like.

[Sal Destefano]

And then you're like. And then you justify and you go up. Well, I did gain 2 pounds muscle. Let me carve off that 8 pounds of fat.

[Justin Andrews]

It's gone. So you go on a cut. You cut out, you cut out the eight pounds of fat and the muscle went right with it, you know. So I, and now notice again I said not fat. Right. That's what we're talking about here. And it, it's, it's harder but it's not complicated. So we're going to talk about is actually not very complicated. But it's got to start with good workout programming. So I know we're not going to talk about, or the title or the topic isn't about workouts, but I want to be clear. Good exercise programming is crucial for this because you can eat the ultimate muscle building diet. But if you're doing circuit training, Zumba or you're over training or whatever, it's not going to build if you're not sending the right signal. With the appropriate amount of volume and intensity. Right. So you're not overdoing it. You're not underdoing it. Just like, just. Right. If you're not doing that, then the diet's not going to make that huge of a difference. But if you are doing that, then what we're about to say makes a huge difference. And then back to what you said, Adam. The first time I really experienced the pain of what you're talking about was years ago. This is when I was a general manager at Santa Teresa. This is back Club Four Nine seven. So years ago. It was a long time ago. And I had a contest with dj, you know, DJ and my buddy Ryan on who could gain the most muscle. I think we gave ourselves two months or something like that. Now, of course, all or nothing, you know, being my middle name, I'm like, I went hard. And I mean by hard, I meant I ate everything. Yeah, I was eating a bucket of chicken for lunch. Like, I was just going nuts with food. And I got my body weight up to 240 pounds, which is a lot for me. Like, right Now I weigh 215, 216. So I got really, really big. And I was like, this is great. I packed on so much muscle until I got a body fat test done. And then I realized that I gained a very small amount of muscle and most of it was body fat. And a lot of it had to do with my programming, but most of it had to do with just a crappy diet.

[Kyle]

Just junk calories.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right. So. So, number one, you do have to eat in a surplus, meaning you have to eat more calories than you're burning because you need extra. You need those extra calories for building muscle, but you don't need as much extra as you think gaining a pound of muscle a week, which would be profound. Right. If you gained a pound of muscle a week, you are gaining at a very, I mean, lean body mass. You are gaining at a ridiculous rate. So most people don't even expect that. But let's say you did that. That pound of muscle wouldn't require that many extra calories if your body's efficient. Now, this is perfect efficiency. It doesn't really work this way. But if you ate enough to build that one pound of muscle per week, it would be a lot less than you think on top of what your body's normally burning.

[Sal Destefano]

Doctor, do you agree with the estimates? I know this is a bit debunked a bit. And I know it's tailored to each person and individualize. But how do you feel about 3,500 pounds or 3,500 calories equals a pound of fat or muscle? Is it relatively close to that?

[Justin Andrews]

If you took a pound of body fat and you were to look at the calories in that. Yes, but through the metabolic process, you're talking about perfect efficiency, meaning there isn't a calorie loss to mitochondrial uncoupling or all these complex processes in the metabolism. Yes, but it's more complex than that. So you can take a pound of muscle, and I can measure it and say, this is how many grams of protein is in that? There's how many calories it took. But there's a lot of processes that lead to that. But in my experience, and I'd love your input, in my experience, for somebody to gain good lean body mass, that's not, you know, that's not body fat. With good programming, you're looking at about 500 to a thousand calories above maintenance. Right. In that range. Yeah. Right. Is that. Is that where you.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, even if you figure that.

[Sal Destefano]

Figure that. So a thousand times seven is seven thousand, that'd be two. Two pounds.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes, yes. So if it was a perfect transfer. Right.

[Sal Destefano]

If it was a perfect transfer.

[Justin Andrews]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

So that's why I. I'm the reason why I brought that up, because I know there's a lot of people on the Internet that have, like, on that number broke down the science for all the reasons that you're talking about. Oh, that's not true.

[Adam Schaefer]

And the.

[Sal Destefano]

There's the difference between each person and the better block rate and. Okay, but why I've always liked that number is because it. It helps simplify to the average person, like, why we want to kind of stay in that range. It's like, if the goal is I want one or two pounds of muscle in a week, I want to land somewhere between 3,500 and 7,000 calorie surplus in a total week. So divide that by seven days. What does that look like? Well, that looks like somewhere between 500 and 1,000 calories.

[Justin Andrews]

Now, there's two ends of the spectrum with this. On one end, you have people who are so afraid of gaining any body fat that they add 100 calories or 50 calories above maintenance. That's not going to work. Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have people who aren't seeing the scale move up quick enough. And so they're like, well, I'm gonna go 2000, 3000 calories above maintenance because I'm So obsessed with seeing the scale move up, this was me. And in that case, they gain body fat. So 500 to a thousand over maintenance, meaning you figure out how many calories you're consuming on a regular basis you could track, and then you just add 500 or 1,000 to that 500 for most people, A thousand for people with a quote unquote fast metabolism or who can gain body fat. Some people are like so lean that they, they should gain some body fat through this process. Then you're more towards a thousand. Add that, add that in there. And then muscle building is a slow process. We're talking about a pound of muscle in a week. That's fast. Like if somebody gained four pounds of muscle a month, that's like crazy.

[Kyle]

That's the biggest misunderstanding is that it's actually a longer drawn out process than people anticipating. So they think that just cramming in more calories is going to, you know, accelerate the process.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

You rarely even see that kind of number unless it's a relatively new lifter.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep. Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Like novelty. Right. So somebody who's in their first three years of lifting, I might be able to see £ to £2 in a week of muscle consistently, but rarely. I mean, most veteran pro bodybuilders will tell you they are pumped if they put ten pounds on in a year.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So that's less than a pound a month.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right. And these are pros.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. You're talking about like nobody's training higher, nobody's dieting harder. You've been lifting for a long time. And because as you get closer and closer to that max potential and you're also, you're including. These guys are on a lot of gear and stuff like that. So sometimes it is, it's just an unreasonable expectation that people have that like.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, you think I could put on.

[Sal Destefano]

15 pounds of muscle or 20 pounds of muscle? Well, yeah, you can, but how? What's our time frame? Like? Oh, two months? Well, probably not, but you can make. I think people also underestimate though, what a difference of just a few pounds of muscle builds and a couple of pounds of fat off. Like now that's what I think is really cool is that, that, you know, chasing a number, some arbitrary number of 10 pounds of muscle is like, okay, it's one thing, but understanding that you could literally add just a couple pounds of muscle and lose a few pounds of fat and radically look different.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, five pounds of lean body mass or typically looks like almost a half an inch on Your arms for a guy typically. So it's a lot of muscle, lean body mass, It's a decent amount.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

£10 is even.

[Sal Destefano]

And I would argue back to my point about losing body fat, that you.

[Adam Schaefer]

Add an inch of muscle to your.

[Sal Destefano]

Arm and you cut out body fat. Like we know the difference of.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, yeah, exact.

[Sal Destefano]

The most compliments about the size of my arms I got was when I was the leanest, not when I was the biggest.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. So there's a lot more going on than just these numbers that we chase.

[Justin Andrews]

And for someone who just wants to get lean, by the way, this is a great way to get you the place where you get lean. Because we talk about building muscle to fuel their metabolic rate. If your goal is to lose a lot of body fat, you've heard us say on other podcasts, you want to start by building because that sets you up for nice fat loss. So even if your goal isn't to gain muscle, you and you just want to lose body fat. Start with this and then later end with the cut. So the second step, the second thing that you want to focus on is protein intake. Duh. But it's got to be pretty high. About one gram per, one to one and a half grams per pound of target body weight. So if you want to gain 10 pounds on the scale, that's what you're aiming for. Okay. So if you're 190 pound guy, you want to gain 10 pounds of lean body mass when you get to 200 pounds, 200 grams, approaching a day minimum or more, or as high as 300 grams of protein, which is very high. I'm giving that high target, by the way, because in my experience. Now this is. This is trainer me talking right now. When I give people a high target, they typically miss and fall where I.

[Kyle]

Want to hit it every time.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So I like people to aim above because the odds are you're going to miss more often than not. Because it's hard. It's hard to hit this much protein.

[Sal Destefano]

This is paramount. And this is where most people go wrong.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Sal Destefano]

It's not hard to get an extra 500,000 calories with through mint chip ice cream at night. You know what I'm saying? Or a bag, a bag of Sour Patch Kids every day after your workout. Like getting the extra calories isn't the heart isn't the hardest part of this process. It's getting good nutrient dense calories and hitting your protein intake consistently. At least this is where Every client that I ever trained that struggle with putting on muscle, including myself, this is, this is where the rubber meets the road is can you hit that 500 to 1,000 consistently through Whole Foods and do that, hit that one and a half, maybe two grams of protein. Pretty consistent. Now, I understand what the science says. You don't necessarily need the 2 grams, but to your exact point, more often than not, you're going to have a bad day. You're going to have a day when you oversleep or you miss a protein meal or you don't, you're traveling and so you can't get your 8 ounces of steak like you normally would. And so that's okay because you've been consistently hitting two. And so you hit one, one and a half that day.

[Justin Andrews]

And I'll, I'll say this like the same calorie diet, one high protein, like we're saying one, let's say low protein, let's say half of that. The high protein version, same calories will build more muscle. This is also true for fat loss. When you see a calorie deficit, the high protein version results in more fat loss than the one that's the low protein version. Again, in the context of what we're saying here. So aim for really high protein within this caloric surplus. That's where the magic is. Next up, eat carbs. Watching people try to build muscle on a low carb diet is futile. It's very difficult. Can you do it? Yes, it's hard. It's just hard, you guys. It's harder to do it. Carbohydrates are protein sparing. They contribute to the pump fluid in the muscle. They give you better performance. A high fat, high protein diet produces a lot of satiety, which in some cases is good. In the case of trying to eat in a surplus may be difficult. This is coming from someone who ate like this for a long time. Trying to gain without eating carbohydrates was, it was just a couple notches harder. That's all. Not impossible, but it's difficult.

[Sal Destefano]

Almost impossible.

[Justin Andrews]

It's very difficult.

[Sal Destefano]

I would add to that. Choose easily digestible carbs.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Because I think that makes a huge difference too. So I think no carbs makes it almost impossible. Yes. There's always exception to the rule. But to try and you know, bulk, I mean on the keto or low carb diet is just so, so difficult. But it's also difficult if you eat a lot of things that pastas and bread sometimes and you think that's now, if you're okay with you.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, if you're, if you're totally okay.

[Sal Destefano]

With those foods and it doesn't bloat you and your body digests it great.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it's fine, then, then it's okay.

[Sal Destefano]

But I have found that to have way more success with things like white potato, sweet potato rice, quinoa, that type of, that type of carbohydrate, your body tends to process it really well and then you're ready for the next meal. Versus when I would do things like eat a big Subway sandwich with lots of meat on it, which would be fine to be a 50 gram protein, you know, double meat sandwich, but then all that bread would just, it would.

[Adam Schaefer]

It would, it would bloat me, it.

[Sal Destefano]

Would slow down the digestive process. And then when I needed to be eating again three hours later, I was like, no, I'm cool.

[Justin Andrews]

You know what's interesting about this, this conversation is there's definitely a range of people who can tolerate things that contain gluten. Like, that's what you're talking about is like, by the way, high sugar carbohydrates, processed carbohydrates that are gluten free can also cause this. So I'm not just saying just gluten. You could eat like processed carbohydrate snacks that are gluten free and they can also cause bloat and digestive distress. But generally speaking, it's the, it's the gluten containing ones that I would notice. And there's a spectrum, right? You've got celiacs way over here and then you got like varying degrees of intolerance. But when I would work with my clients and I would ask them to pay attention and we would swap things out to see if we Notice a difference, 7 out of 10, maybe 8 out of 10 of them did better avoiding gluten containing carbohydrates.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm glad you brought that up because there tends to be like these camps of, well, if you don't have celiacs, then it doesn't really matter. But I've experienced it. I don't, I can eat, I eat bread. I can have those things. But if I'm on a mission to, to bulk, and I know I'm going to need to increase calories consistently and consistently eat a high protein diet, like I'm on a mission, I just have to cut out bread. Doesn't mean I like, if I'm in a, if I'm in a maintenance phase where I'm like dieting like I am right now. It's not a high priority. Bread makes its way in my.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Ah, so what I'm doing, slow down the digestive process. So what, I'm blowed a little bit. So what My. I don't hit my protein intake for a day. I'm not worried about it all the time. But if you're on a mission, I'm on a mission. Again, I've just had, I've had the same exact experience with my clients that are like, oh, well, I, I don't feel like the bread's a bad thing. It's just like, well, let's see if we sub that out. Let's swap it out with some rice and see what, see if you notice the difference. All of them.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right. In fact, if you know people listening right now, you know, you know who you are when you eat a lot of bread or a lot of pasta, where you kind of feel bogged down, you kind of feel a little lethargic, like that's what we're talking about. And it makes the whole diet much more difficult. Now, speaking of foods, I made a list of the muscle building superfoods. Okay. Now, it's not limited to this list, but I'm gonna give you the ones that make the biggest difference.

[Ariel]

Meat.

[Justin Andrews]

And this is all meats, including chicken. We'll put fish in there. So all animal proteins. Bologna. Cooked bologna. Yeah. I always, whenever people talk about processed meats, I always picture like a bologna animal.

[Kyle]

Yeah, throw that in there every now and then.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, processed meats don't count. But you know, just like whole natural meats, cooked well cooked vegetables. Berries are the superfood of fruits because they're fiber content, easy to digest. Eggs, of course, super anabolic rice. And then different versions of potatoes. Like these are your like muscle building super foods. Now it's not just these foods, but this should make up a big portion of your diet. And then shakes, protein shakes. You know what, you use these, by the way, when you need to make up protein. Save your protein shake for the end of the day when you didn't hit your target and then throw it in there. Here's why I don't think it's a good idea to throw them in throughout the day. You can do that and there's a lot of people that do it. So it's not like this is a, you know, this is going to kill you. But what tends to happen when people throw them in during the day is they tend to make their way into the diet all the time.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And there's nothing wrong with a protein shake, but whole foods are just better. And look, okay, I know people love to point to the science and what's the difference? It's a gram of protein. In fact, this is high quality protein. I know personally, I know with the clients I've worked with, people do better with whole foods. They just feel better. They do better. Take it for what it's worth, if you've ever, if you talk to anybody who's experimented with both, especially somebody who's competed and who knows what it feels like to do one or the other, they'll tell you. The whole foods just, they just seem.

[Kyle]

To be natural limiters for the digestive process. Like you slowly digest it like you should.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, it always too. It goes back to like, I mean, so how arrogant we are sometimes when we think, like, we know, we know we still don't know everything about the metabolism. And yet you have people that having done these experiments. I've done this experiment. I've talked about it before when I competed where I did entire run, getting ready for stage, where I allowed all the bars, all the jakes, everything I want, and I got ripped. I did fine on stage, but when I did it all through Whole Foods, I felt different and looked just a little bit better. It's just. Yeah, you know, so, yes, you could totally do that and still look great. It's not, it wasn't enough to be like, oh, wow, huge difference, but you feel different. And I did look different and it was enough for me to be like.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, going forward, my goal is I'm.

[Sal Destefano]

Always going to try and do it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Through Whole Foods, knowing that there's going.

[Sal Destefano]

To be days in my that I don't make that. And so that's why I love the strategy of use the shake at nighttime.

[Adam Schaefer]

Use the shake when you just finished.

[Sal Destefano]

Dinner at 5 or 6 o', clock, you're calculating up your, your grams of protein. You're like, oh, shit, I'm still 40, 50 grams short. I'm gonna have that shake before I go to bed. Like, that's how I like to use it.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right. And then here's the other big point with it is that I'm always, you know, again, as a trainer, my interest is less about the person's immediate goals and more about, can I help them do this and develop a relationship with this where they want to do it forever. Okay. And protein powders are processed and it's real food, is real food. And I'd like for people to develop a relationship with real food where this is what they rely on and not on processed foods. Now if you had to pick the best processed foods, typically the high protein ones and Protein Shakespeare are up there and I think they're valuable. But whole natural foods is what we're always pointing to. Keep that protein powder as your insurance policy at the end of the day. And then lastly, manage your time, manage your time and meal prep. If you get behind the eight ball with a muscle building diet, you're not gonna, it's not gonna work. If you wake up and you oh, oh, oh, it's 11 o', clock, I haven't eaten breakfast yet, but I gotta get 220 grams of protein. It's gonna be rough trying to get all that in throughout the whole day. So start your day off right out the gates. High protein, manage your time. This is one of the reasons why bodybuilders eat on such a schedule. Now I know that's a very extreme example and we're not talking to bodybuilders here, but I like to use this extreme example because when you look at people who are managing a 5,000 calorie diet with 350 grams of protein, they're very structured because if they get behind the eight ball then it's not going to happen. And I find this to be true with my clients as well. If Mrs. Johnson's aiming for 150 grams of protein a day, which is for 150 pound female and it's noon and she hasn't eaten yet, it's not going to happen.

[Sal Destefano]

The truth is most people that get into working out are trying to do is to change body composition. And those are the best people at changing body composition in the world. And if you were to talk to any bodybuilder, I think I've met a couple maybe that don't prep. I mean very, very few. And the ones that do surprise that.

[Justin Andrews]

You even met a couple.

[Sal Destefano]

Well those are the ones that like do it. Like they don't, they're not trying to win. It's like I'm gonna get in shape and you know, plan this day. If I get, if I get in the top 20, I get in the top 20. Ain't nobody who's trying to win, who's trying to present the best physique they've ever, they've ever done or compete with anybody else. Everybody preps. So.

[Adam Schaefer]

And they would all are, they would.

[Sal Destefano]

All say that's probably the number one thing that you have to do now. I don't think that everybody in here wants to have that physique. But the point is that those people are the best in the world at body composition change.

[Justin Andrews]

So you can learn a few things.

[Sal Destefano]

And there's things to learn. And they would say if you were to give them a list of what.

[Adam Schaefer]

Are all the most important things in.

[Sal Destefano]

Changing your body composition, I guarantee all of them would say that's.

[Justin Andrews]

You're right.

[Sal Destefano]

The top of their list, 100. So there's something to be learned there.

[Justin Andrews]

All right, I want to talk about our partner, Manukura, but I want to talk about what their product, which is Manuka Honey. So I looked up some data on Manuka Honey and some of its values. So I didn't know that. Well, I did know this, but I think this is fascinating. So did you guys know that. Manuka Honey. If you put it on superficial partial thickness burns or wounds, or diabetic ulcers, surgical sites, if you put it on there, it's more effective than conventional dressings for healing and scarring. Did you guys know that?

[Sal Destefano]

It's so funny that we. We make like. Like comparing it to like Neosporin then. Yeah, dude, why even using Neosporin then?

[Justin Andrews]

So there's. There's something in there called mgo, which Manukora has very, very high rates of this. Okay. It's one of the highest quality, which has this really powerful natural antibacterial effects.

[Kyle]

But I'm just gonna hope you're not around ants.

[Sal Destefano]

You want to know what an ant fact. So it's just random. Sorry to take you off. You're a little. So I'm gonna do with my son. I just told him about it yesterday. I have this science page that I follow.

[Adam Schaefer]

If you get.

[Sal Destefano]

Put an ant on a white piece of paper and you draw a circle, it'll never leave that circle.

[Adam Schaefer]

Did you know that?

[Doug]

I've heard that, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

I can't wait to do it with.

[Sal Destefano]

I saw it the other day and I told Max, I said, we gotta trap an ant with a. With a pencil.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, we have an ant farm now, by the way, I have a fear that the ant farm gets tipped over and there's ants everywhere. And they're big. They're like big. What kind of ants are those?

[Kyle]

Big red ones. Right.

[Justin Andrews]

These things sting.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, you have the sting ones?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, why do they send these?

[Kyle]

It's not like fire ants. But they're.

[Justin Andrews]

But these will bite you. Yeah, they'll bite you.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's not good. So anyway, it has very powerful. So trip off this. It's good for respiratory tract infections. It's good for reducing plaque, gingivitis, periodontal pathogens. And of course it's good for the microbiome of the gut. And it's got these anti inflammatory products. It's literally.

[Kyle]

Is that the main thing is anti inflammatory, anti, antimicrobial.

[Justin Andrews]

It tastes good and it's honey.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. It's another one of those studio that doesn't last very long.

[Justin Andrews]

It's gone. Yeah, I know.

[Sal Destefano]

It's one. I'll have Katrina talk to them.

[Justin Andrews]

The only other. The only other product that's gone is probably the fastest is our Zbotics. I don't even see them.

[Sal Destefano]

I know. I just. I had to. I had to buy it out of my own pocket. You know, the most frustrating thing is you bought it.

[Justin Andrews]

Send it to us for free. When I had to. When I had to buy something that we were supp.

[Sal Destefano]

Just so the audience knows. Like, obviously all of our partners said copious amounts of everything to us, but there's certain things like you're talking about that go through. And for my birthday, by the way. Are you coming? I know you're coming and you're coming. Yeah, I'll come.

[Justin Andrews]

Are you coming? I'm trying to.

[Sal Destefano]

We didn't want you there.

[Kyle]

I'm actually your friend.

[Sal Destefano]

So I mean, I just got the.

[Adam Schaefer]

The list.

[Sal Destefano]

Like it's like over the top wine that. So we have a. Like a really fancy.

[Justin Andrews]

So you ordered a bunch of. No.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

So I.

[Sal Destefano]

That's why.

[Justin Andrews]

Because I'm like.

[Sal Destefano]

We have all this like fancy wine.

[Justin Andrews]

Drinking without. It sucks.

[Adam Schaefer]

It does.

[Justin Andrews]

It reminds me of how terrible it feels to drink alcohol when I don't have the body.

[Kyle]

I know.

[Justin Andrews]

We.

[Kyle]

We had just one night. We were going out with our friends to some like Jimmy Buffett concert. Which by the way, horrible. He has one song that I know.

[Sal Destefano]

I was like, what is all this? It was a bunch of old people.

[Kyle]

Just like, you know, in Hawaiian shirts.

[Justin Andrews]

Anyways, hold on. Not what I expected. Was it your age group? Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

I don't realize probably.

[Justin Andrews]

But like, I didn't.

[Kyle]

The lights were dark and.

[Justin Andrews]

Where did you go to Jimmy Buffett concert.

[Kyle]

It was like down as I felt musicals, like down the road.

[Doug]

It wasn't Jimmy Buffett though. I think he passed away.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no.

[Kyle]

It was like a cover band. It was like even worse. It was like some people that were like carrying on the torch of, you know, like mildly Margaritaville entertaining jams.

[Sal Destefano]

Is that his jam?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, okay.

[Kyle]

But anyways, like, we had two left in, like, I was going to.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Kyle]

Hey, guys, I have this product and I'm like, mentioning it to our friends and all this. And then I was like, there's two. And I was like, actually, never mind.

[Justin Andrews]

Kept it for me.

[Sal Destefano]

Dude, I'm hella stingy cars. Like, I keep them. So at my bar, I keep them in a drawer in the back, hidden. Because Katrina's family comes over and of.

[Adam Schaefer]

Course her family, so they can help.

[Sal Destefano]

Themselves to the bar. But then they know I'll know about the Zbiotics. So I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm out. Hell lying.

[Justin Andrews]

Because I'm like, I need that them.

[Adam Schaefer]

You know what I'm saying?

[Sal Destefano]

Like, they're. They're like, alcohol runs in their family stuff over there. Yeah. Although, you know that, you know when we had that big scare with Katrina, it's been a year, you know, that. That forever changed her relationship with alcohol.

[Justin Andrews]

What do you mean?

[Adam Schaefer]

She.

[Sal Destefano]

After that happened, she's never really been able to drink. Like, she used to drink.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, really?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And she. And she notices, only. This is weird, that. Which is funny. I think really expensive champagne or wine is. Is the only thing that settles. Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, sh. I swear to God, I think she's clos. No, bro, this is.

[Adam Schaefer]

My wife is the one.

[Sal Destefano]

It was.

[Adam Schaefer]

No, it used to be to take.

[Sal Destefano]

Take my wife to a restaurant is embarrassing to watch her order drinks because she.

[Justin Andrews]

Which one's the most exciting?

[Sal Destefano]

She's. No, she's a Jack and Coke girl.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Kyle]

She's always a Jack and Coke.

[Sal Destefano]

So I used to always be like, you know, we're at some nice restaurant that. And my wife's like, I'll have a Jack and Coke.

[Justin Andrews]

What are you, 22? I have a Red Bull one.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like a club. Come with Jack and co. Long island.

[Justin Andrews]

Iced tea, have some sort of sophistication.

[Sal Destefano]

So now went to the other extreme. It's like only like really expensive bubbly.

[Justin Andrews]

Or really good wine.

[Sal Destefano]

Even, like, kind of even middle of the road type wine.

[Kyle]

Classy. Katrina.

[Sal Destefano]

I don't know what it is, but. And so isn't that weird?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

After that whole incident, it's never interesting.

[Adam Schaefer]

She said multiple times.

[Justin Andrews]

So I. So here's why it doesn't make sense. So I was trying. While you were talking, I'm like, trying to think, okay, what are the pathways of alcohol detox that could have potentially been affected by what happened to her? But then you said other alcohols. Fine. As long as it's expensive. So I don't understand. I'm trying to think of so.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, I know with, like, additives.

[Adam Schaefer]

Exactly.

[Sal Destefano]

I know with wine there's a lot.

[Adam Schaefer]

Of, like, additives and sugars and things like that. If it's not.

[Sal Destefano]

If it's not refined enough, like, there's people that get headache, like.

[Adam Schaefer]

I know.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Have you tried tricking her and getting cheap wine, putting it like, you know what I mean, Just to see if she's full. How do you feel?

[Sal Destefano]

I'm not sure I want that night just to prove.

[Justin Andrews]

Pick up on that.

[Kyle]

Especially with one.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, alcohol.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I know. Like, and I, I'll call them out on them. Like, you just poured, well, vodka in here. This is disgusting.

[Sal Destefano]

I mean, Justin is the one that got me. I, I, Justin got me on nice whiskey. I was never, like, a whiskey guy because partly how it made me feel. I get a headache from it didn't feel good. I feel awful now. Now when I drink Angel's Envy. It's why I like it so much, because I'm like, oh, man, I, I actually can.

[Adam Schaefer]

It tastes good.

[Sal Destefano]

It doesn't give me a headache. Like, so there's a. There's definitely a difference on how alcohol is processed.

[Justin Andrews]

I only have one rule when I drink. Is it. Does it taste like a Jolly Rancher? If it does, then I' Otherwise, I can't.

[Sal Destefano]

You're still at the college girl stage, bro. You're at the college girl stage still.

[Justin Andrews]

It's like, can you add a bunch.

[Kyle]

Of little umbrellas for some?

[Justin Andrews]

It's either. It's either a sugary, sugary drink or I'm gonna drink a shot because the goal is to get buzzed. Otherwise, it's like, forget.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank God you're as jacked as you are. No one gonna say shit to you when you.

[Justin Andrews]

No one's gonna mouth off to you. Say, when you order your purple drink, who's gonna. What a horrible way to mouth out. Oh, this is your drink. We should fight you. Hey, man. Alcohol abuser.

[Sal Destefano]

No, but I'm. I'm sure there's plenty of guys that serve that tree that would want to.

[Justin Andrews]

No, they don't. They bring it to Jessica. So every time we get drinks, they give her mine, and they give me her whiskey, and then we switch, and the guy looks at me like, what's going on here?

[Sal Destefano]

And it's like, yeah, I used to own it.

[Kyle]

Sometimes I'll order one, it has, like, a hibiscus, like, flower on it, and just put it right in My ear. I'm like, what's up, bro?

[Justin Andrews]

That's when you're flirting. So, anyway, how I want to talk about. I want to ask you about your weekend, Adam, if that's all right.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, God, Really?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So let me open. I'm going to set you up. Okay. Really nice. You are my hero. Oh, okay. Because you're going through something. Very.

[Sal Destefano]

Setting me up.

[Justin Andrews]

Just very.

[Kyle]

Okay. I know where this is going.

[Justin Andrews]

Very, very challenging. I was curious, and for all, you could totally keep this private, but, you know, you're not going to. I asked you before we. We turn on the mics, and it's. It's a very challenging thing. And I think. Yeah, I want to. I think it would be good if you shared a little bit of what's going on, because I know there's other people listening that probably could.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, well, the hardest part about sharing it right now is that I'm. I'm still in the fire. So it's. I'm definitely. I'm not all the way through it. I'm on day five right now, so I would say that I'm through the worst part of it, but it's still not good at all. I've had. In five days, I've had a total of about six hours of complete rest sitting here, Right?

[Justin Andrews]

Total, total, total, total.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So the first.

[Sal Destefano]

The first two nights were absolutely zero at all. And I'm going through opiate withdrawals and through Kratom, so I've used Kratom for almost three years now. And the way it was introduced to me, which is really interesting, I'll tell that story first so I can tell people how. How it crept in. If you've listened to the podcast long enough, you've heard me tell stories. Way back when, when I first had my knee surgery and I got hooked on Vicodin, that was my first experience of ever being addicted to something and going through withdrawals and, like, I didn't know what that was like.

[Adam Schaefer]

So just.

[Sal Destefano]

I'll save that story. If you want to, you can go back and find that or listen to it. But I slowly crept up on those one time when I had knee surgery, and the doctor told me, because I told him I was still in pain. Oh, take it before the four hours and before you knew it.

[Justin Andrews]

Stay ahead of the pain.

[Sal Destefano]

Stay ahead of the pain was what the advice was. And I remember, you know, pain was done, and I said, I'm good. Just stop taking them. I still had some left in the bottle, and it had already been I don't know, a month or two or whatever after the surgery and everything. And I had, like, these terrible flu symptoms. Runny nose, headaches, the chills. You're getting nauseous. And I was like, in that whole first night, I didn't sleep at all. And then the second night, it was like, again, I was. I'm like, man, what an awful time to get the flu. And I remember getting ready for bed when I had this flu going. I just want to sleep. I'm gonna go take one of those. Those Vicodins help me sleep. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna take one of those. And I remember taking it like 6 o' clock or 7 o' clock at night, and all the symptoms disappeared. And I felt good. And I went, what the. And I. And I instantly got on the Internet and it was like I started goo. At that point, I'm oblivious. I'm totally naive at this point of opiates and. And the addiction and withdrawals or anything like that. Never experienced anything like that in my life. And I was like, holy, I'm addicted. And so I went down reading, researching kind of how to do it, and I tailored myself off and I was. And I was fine. So that's kind of my. My backstory and my relationship with opiates. Fast forward. Years later, I have a relative of mine that is battling a Viking addiction. I share him, my story and my process. And he's. He's pretty. He's pretty hard on it. He's having a hard time. And at that time, I had just recently seen a documentary on Kratom. And I said, hey, I've never.

[Justin Andrews]

Was this the Mark Bell one?

[Sal Destefano]

This is before his daughter. Even before. Yeah, even before him. So I tell him about it, and I've never experienced it or anything like that. I just said, hey, watch this really great documentary. It talks about this natural plant that's in Asia or somewhere over there. And it's. It's. It acts on the opiate receptors. It's done miraculous things for people that are addicted to opiates, to getting them off. You should try it. So I tell him that, and I don't see him for, like, six months. Six months go by, and he's at my house, and I see he's got this kratom with him.

[Adam Schaefer]

And I'm like, oh, my God, you.

[Sal Destefano]

You have the Kratom. I was like, how's it working? He's like, oh, it's amazing. And I'm like, what? I'm like, how much does it feel like the Viken. He goes, just like it. I'm like, what do you mean, just like it can't feel like a Vicodin? Like, he's like, oh, yeah. He's like, here, try, try six of them. Hands me six of them. I take it and I go, who? Hour later, I'm sitting on the couch, I'm like. I felt like I just took my, Like a Vicodin again. And that was like the first time. And so now at this point, I already. I am very aware that I like that feeling. And so recreationally, that would get it make its way into my life, you know, periodically here and there on a weekend or this or that. And so for me, it. It felt like, oh, it's no different than having a glass of wine or things like that. And then over a year or two later, it became something that I noticed that I start to allow myself to have more consistently throughout the week. And so it just kind of slowly crept. And then the justification that I played with myself or told myself is, it's a plant, it's natural, it's an herb. It's not a pharmaceutical. I'm not addicted to it. Like, the diet I can handle. And. And now we're getting closer to the last three years of my life as I've allowed it to kind of creep up the amount now within those three years, I've had multiple times where I've progressed the. Progressed the dosages up, and then I've noticed it get kind of high, and then I. I creep it back down. And you guys have heard me on the podcast, I've talked about, you know, my relationship with all drugs. I've always been able to. Caffeine included, marijuana, you name it. I tend to pay attention to my. My intake, my behavior. I always want to know that I'm in control. And I taper down and I do that. And so I've. I've been able to do that with Kratom for the first part of my relationship with it. And so again, justifying, like, I'm cool. I can always taper back down and come back down. And I just got into a place in the. I'd say the last two years where it was for sure, daily. And not only was it daily was I was consistently doing it. And then what would happen is the thing that. And it, you know, started a dosage, like six total in a day, like nothing. And for the people that understands three grams of. Of Kratom. And so, like, so three grams. And then that, you can't feel it anymore. And so you bump another gram. Yeah, and then you bump another gram, Right? And then you start to notice that I'm not getting as good as sleep. And so you bump another gram. And so I kept doing this. And then it got to a point. You know, I remember the first time I was like, you know, I'm feeling tired under the weather. Not really the best feeling. I want to feel nice in the morning time before I podcast. I'll have some in the morning now. So fast forward over the last couple years, and, you know, I reached a level of. So I was doing 16, three times a day. And I think at this point, I'm fully aware of how, how much it's.

[Justin Andrews]

Got a hold of me.

[Sal Destefano]

And I don't like that. Like, it's, it's, it's bothering me. And yet I'm still playing the game in my head that I know that, oh, I can taper down. I can, I can do this. And so, and, But I had this point, and this was probably, I want to say, six months ago, I go, okay, no more. I'm gonna stay right at this level until I plan a week or two when I. Or that I can really start to taper down. And what happened was I maintained that for actually quite some time. It was almost six months. And then all of a sudden, my body adapted so much to it that, like, now it almost felt like I was not getting it, that I had to take more to sleep. And then I was, like, starting to play around with, okay, well, I'll hold back a little bit in the morning, so I'll have more in the night. It was all just so I could get a good night's sleep. And I went, holy shit, this thing has got a hold of me so bad. And then I mentioned to you guys last week, I said, you know, I, I, I've got to get off. And I. And I think that it's got a hold of me so bad that I might have to check in, because I don't know if I can, because I had already tried to taper a few times and was not having success. I was tapering, and then I'd have some sort of something come up, work, family, whatever. And I'd be like, ah, man, I don't want to feel like with family without.

[Adam Schaefer]

Prayed a lot about it.

[Sal Destefano]

And, and I was like, you know what? Like, do I really want to check myself in? I'm like, I know I need, I know I need at least three to five days, because I know What I've, I've experienced opiate withdrawals before. And anybody who's listening knows, and for the audience who doesn't know, there ain't nothing like it. You, nicotine, alcohol, every. Heroin is an opiate.

[Adam Schaefer]

So the only thing close to it is heroin.

[Sal Destefano]

Heroin is an opiate. The addiction withdrawals on that is like nothing.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I was talking over the weekend, you were telling me it feels like your, your, your bones want to come out of your body. Like your skeletons trying to get out of your body is what you're telling me.

[Sal Destefano]

It consistently like every second doesn't let off. It doesn't let off at all, at all. And I have, I had all the resources and tools, so I had sauna, red light, cold plunge, steam, sweating it out, all the vitamins. I mean, I had, I had every, everything to help me through this process. And again, back to. I was praying about it. And when, when I was praying about it, the thing that came to me was, I need to suffer. I, I can't, I, I can't justify tapering it down real slow. And a taper from that high of a dose would probably take six months of just peeling off. That's like, if you read all the recommendations, they'll tell you to pull a gram off a day. And the amount of grams, if you did the math on where I was at, I was like, over 30 grams a day. It would take a very long time to, to get it tapered down. And, and then if I did, I, I, I told myself, you know, what if I tapered? And actually it wasn't so bad, maybe I would justify probably doing it again.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

[Sal Destefano]

And so I think the answer I got was no, you, you need to suffer. And so I just, I told you guys on Wednesday, like, I'm going to do it. And you asked me then if I would talk about it. And I'm like, let me see. First, because I thought I knew that it was going to be so bad that I, I might have to go into a, a rehab center. And so, well, the way that Kratom.

[Justin Andrews]

Is sold and communicated is, it's like, it's this, it's not a big deal. You know, you said it's natural. You got people in the fitness space that kind of promote it. And it's, it's, it could be really. I was nowhere near what you did. But when I came off, I felt extreme lethargy and some depression that lasted for roughly a week, which sucks by itself. So I didn't get what you felt. But it's really easy to try to avoid that because it sucks and you can't work and you can't, you can't function. And even till this day, like, I haven't touched it since then, but there's always a little bit of that pull because then it comes and then what you think is like, ah, just a little bit, you know, what's the big deal? You know, I won't do it again or whatever. But I know a lot of people struggle because I talked about coming off on my series, and the comments underneath were people who are like, thank you for talking about this. I struggle with this. Oh, my God. I came off was terrible. You told me this is the worst thing you've ever experienced with Kratom.

[Sal Destefano]

This is, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I've done a lot of hard things in my life, for sure. And I, I pride myself on my discipline to be able to do almost anything. It's why I was successful at bodybuilding. Like, I can put. When I put my mind to something and say, I'm gonna do something, like, I'm, I'm disciplined. But, I mean, and if you didn't pick up on that, that was like, oh, I didn't even want to talk about on Wednesday because I knew what I was heading into. And day one, I was prepared for hell and I got it, you know, and. And it was worse than I could have ever imagined. But I also have that grit where it's like, all right, I can. I'm gonna get through this. Day two almost broke me. Day two brought me to tears. And the hardest part about it is when I've got a bottle of it five feet. I mean, I had it next to my nightstand because I was like, if I can't do this, I've got to. I'll just take. That's hard. And so knowing that I had to get out of the house, knowing, knowing that it's right there and this, all this goes away and then I'll figure it out later. I kept it right, right in front of me, and I'm crying and rolling around on the bed and, you know, three in the morning, I'm taking cold plunges just so I can have some relief. Because after a cold plunge, that, that how tingly and numb you become gave me about a two to three minute relief. So you can imagine me at, you know, 45, 50 degrees outside, pitch black, jumping into my pool naked, just so I can just freaking torture myself.

[Justin Andrews]

Did you have any moments of laughter during this suffering where you're like, man, this is crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

I actually couldn't get there until probably day three or four with Katrina. And what that looked like was Katrina would be like, hey, how are you doing? And I'm like, I would. I would laugh. I'm like, I feel terrible, but I feel so much better than what I did two days ago.

[Justin Andrews]

Like.

[Sal Destefano]

Like, at this point, I've got diarrhea, I've got stomach aches, I've got headaches. I've got hot, cold flashes. But I'm like, it doesn't feel like a demon is leaving my body right now. I'm like, so, like, I'm joyful. It's like this. It was this weird, you know, date, and that was like, day three, day four, Day one and two, though. Day two especially, because day two, one. Mentally prepared for a no night of sleep, whatever. But the. Like, you. We've talked about this before. The absolute worst torture is no sleep. And try getting no sleep and feeling like. And.

[Adam Schaefer]

And not.

[Kevin]

And being.

[Sal Destefano]

Rest. Not being able to even sit still. So I can't even. So what happens is, like, I. I haven't been in my room with my wife because I. I constantly pace the house. I go downstairs, I shove my head in the couch, shivering, shaking, flopping around like a fish. Get up, walk upstairs, the other room, and I'm like, I'm so exhausted. I'm afraid I'm gonna fall down the stairs. But I know I have to keep moving because movement is the only thing that gives me a little bit of relief from the tremors and the. The trying to feel like your skeleton's jumping out. And so. And the second day of no sleep, all I could think about is I can't do another night of. Of. Of this. Like, this. This bad.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it's been. It's still.

[Sal Destefano]

I've still had pretty much no sleep, and it's been bad every night, but not as torturous as it was the first two. But. Yeah, here's. Let me tell you something else about what's going on with Kratom right now, too. California just banned it.

[Justin Andrews]

I don't know that.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah. So California is pulling it out of smoke shops right now. But here's the stupid part. And this is where this is going to get dangerous is the product 7 oh, which is the concentrated version, stronger version, way stronger. Comes in a little package of five pills. And it's. It's equivalent to what a whole bag of. Of Kratom is Okay, so that is still. Because the FDA hasn't caught up yet. That's able to be.

[Justin Andrews]

So playing that game.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, here's the worst part about this, though. You just. There's for sure there's thousands, if not millions of addicts just like me right now.

[Justin Andrews]

They're going to go for that now.

[Sal Destefano]

That's their only option. If you live in California and that.

[Justin Andrews]

Got pulled off your shelf, what's going to happen when they. When they pull that is people are going to go to the streets for Fentanyl. Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

And part of one of the things.

[Adam Schaefer]

That helped me through this.

[Sal Destefano]

I told you this. You know, I'm not sleeping for five days, so obviously I'm listening to audiobooks and YouTube and I just have to stay busy. I watched probably 100 withdrawal videos of people and stories and everything like that. Something about that helped me. Just hearing other people go through it and. And talk about making it through and stuff like that. I watched a lot of that. And the one. The only ones that sounded remotely. First of all, nobody had as much Kratom as I was, so that was also.

[Justin Andrews]

So you're just your first place. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

That wasn't. That was enlightening. Like, talk about. Talk about feeling like you won the loser. There's nothing like watching a bunch of losers talk about coming off of an addiction to being like, wow, I'm the biggest loser.

[Justin Andrews]

He's like.

[Sal Destefano]

I was like, oh, God. I was like, searching, like, someone's got to.

[Justin Andrews]

Someone's got to be working worse than me.

[Sal Destefano]

And the only people that were worse.

[Justin Andrews]

Than me were the seven.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, people. The people that started on Kratom.

[Justin Andrews]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Got introduced to seven.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh.

[Sal Destefano]

And then they. Then they progressed.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank God you didn't do that.

[Adam Schaefer]

So part of the.

[Sal Destefano]

Part of the thing that tipped me that was so complete transparency. This is how bad this was. So I. I told you guys, I said, I'm doing this. I'm taping this. Like, I said, I was already setting the goals in my head how I was going to do it. They already. I found out they removed the shelves. I'm like, oh, there's.

[Justin Andrews]

So you're gonna be forced anyway.

[Sal Destefano]

So I'm like, what am I gonna do? So I. I ordered 3,000 from Nevada.

[Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

So I've got 3,000 of them already ordered because I was already doing the math on, like, if I taper this.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I see.

[Sal Destefano]

It's like. And I ain't going to seven. Oh. So I better get myself stocked up. And so I stocked it up. And that was kind of the tipping point for me. Like, I've got.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, what am I doing?

[Sal Destefano]

What am I doing? Like, I'm like. And I'm like, f this. Yeah, I need. I need to just throw them away. I need to suffer, dude. I need to suffer, and I need to feel it.

[Justin Andrews]

The spiritual side. The spiritual part of this, I said, this is what I said to you, because this is the experience I had, not with Kratom, but with other stuff. And just, you know, it's a myth. And this is, you know, now we're going to get a little on the faith side, but it's a myth. It's a terrible lie that the world sells us, that we got it, we can do it. We can do anything. You can. You can make anything happen. This was my mantra and the reason and this was my mantra, and it was reinforced by what I had accomplished in the world. It worked. I got the things that the world promised when you do that. But that's all I got. I didn't get anything else. So it left me empty and lost. And it took me getting broken, which takes a lot for some of us, it takes more than others to get broken. You're a really strong. You're incredibly resilient, Adam. You're probably the most resilient person I know. And so, you know, the side. The spiritual side of me says that this was to get you to that place, to where you're relying on him and saying, okay, I can't do this, because I can't think of anything else that would get you there.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, I have a different.

[Sal Destefano]

I have a different opinion on that.

[Justin Andrews]

What do you think?

[Sal Destefano]

Well, you know, you got to remember that I've been with him for a long time.

[Justin Andrews]

Right?

[Sal Destefano]

I've had a relationship with him for a long time. I sent you and Jessica a quote.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I love it.

[Sal Destefano]

Love them. And he whispers to me all the time when I'm not listening.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Or when I'm ignoring or when I think I'm going to do it my way. And he has gentle whispers for a long time, and then eventually it becomes this loud thing, right? So for me, it's like I'm never, like. I mean, I know that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And I know that faith without work is dead. And so I have nothing that we've built here. Done. Do I believe is on my deeds, or. So I'm. I'm. I'm not that man. Like, I don't. I don't.

[Adam Schaefer]

I don't think that way.

[Sal Destefano]

I don't believe that way. But I do know that I, I'm human. And even with years with a relationship with him like that, I can have these point patterns where I play games and justify or ignore the whispers and continue down my path. And eventually it gets louder and, you know, it got loud enough to me to go like, okay, which. And also I think part of the message was you need to suffer. Like, you remember. Yeah, so you remember. And so that was like, to me, like, I don't think that I. I don't think I needed to be brought to my knees to realize that, you know, all things are through him. And like, I already know that. Like, I've. I've been walking in that faith for a very long time in my life. It was more like, hey, I've been gently whispering to you for a long time. And you know, you know, and you know, here's, here's me getting louder. And then it was like, okay, I hear you. It's time. It's time for me to do it. I know.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, that's good. Good. That's giving. That gives some great purpose, I bet. Some good. Like, let's do this.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's in looking be on this side of it now or I just feel like crap instead of.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, that's what you said. You said, man, I would love a bad night of sleep. Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

No, it's, it's. It's hard to describe, man. I tell you, I know there's. I mean, we have so many listeners. I know there's somebody list. Lots of people probably listening that have experienced opiate withdrawal. It's. It's nothing like anything else. It's nothing like the other. A lot of the other stuff I've, you know, named the thing. I've messed with it. I've done it. Whatever that is psychological, like, where you just had the mental discipline. It's different to have mental discipline and it's different to have physical torture.

[Adam Schaefer]

Physical chemistry pulling towards something and it's.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, you're not producing any feel good chemicals. That's what happened is that when you, when you do these things, your body stops. You just don't have the receptors form, so you have nothing that feels good, which feels terrible.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder what would be interesting is how much the things that I. Because it feels like nothing's helped me because I feel so miserable. But I can only imagine a lot of that stuff did. And I could only imagine like, oh.

[Justin Andrews]

What it would Be like, yeah. Oh, remember.

[Adam Schaefer]

Remember how we talked about.

[Sal Destefano]

I wanted to share this. This is, like, nothing to do with anybody else for our sponsorship stuff or nothing, but remember when we had that NAD IV come in and we weren't. None of us were really impressed with it?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. I have a feeling that had a lot to do with that. We're all relatively healthy guys, and so just didn't know that this time when I did it, I felt it. So I think I was.

[Justin Andrews]

So they hooked you up to the iv.

[Sal Destefano]

So I did.

[Adam Schaefer]

I did a full.

[Sal Destefano]

I did a 500 milligrams of NAD IV. I did Glutathione. I did all B vitamins. I did. It was like a full wellness trip.

[Justin Andrews]

And I.

[Sal Destefano]

45 minutes. Dripped it all in me. And I remember when we did it that time, I didn't feel. I felt uncomfortable. I didn't really like how I felt afterwards. This made it like. That was. I felt. That was two days ago.

[Justin Andrews]

That's good for people to know.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So I think that's that stuff when you're really depleted or you're really bad. And part of what led me to do that was, of course, I'm doing all kinds of research on, like, anything that's will help. And there's a lot of positive stuff about NAD with withdrawals. And I looked up, found a place that did the. Did the. The drip, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go do that and see. See how that feels. And so I was a little nervous about being. Having to sit still for that long. It's hard for me to sit still for that long a time. And I didn't know. And I don't do good with needles in my arm already. So I was like, we'll see how that goes. And then lady jabs me three times.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I know.

[Sal Destefano]

Which was ironic about. I got all this nervous, I got.

[Justin Andrews]

With what you said about suffering. Suffering. It's like, you. Oh, this needle's not even a word, bro.

[Sal Destefano]

Like, it's a perfect arm for bro.

[Justin Andrews]

This is.

[Sal Destefano]

This stuff has been comical, right? So it's like, here I am in my head. I'm going like, I can't. I. Katrina's like, can you sit still for 45 minutes, Trip? I was like, I don't know.

[Adam Schaefer]

I'm like.

[Sal Destefano]

Because I haven't been able to sit still for that long yet. And so I'm like, I don't know. Let's just hope that this makes me feel so good. And then I'm talking to the nurse and, like, you know, I've got crazy veins. Most nurses go crazy when they see my arms. Like. Like. And I don't do good when they're doing it, so I have to look away. So I'm, like, looking away at Katrina, and this beezy is jabbing me three times. Like, we'll show the audience.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

If you're watching, we took. Justin took a picture. I'll have them give it to anything.

[Justin Andrews]

But I'm.

[Sal Destefano]

My arm is bruised up. So nasty.

[Justin Andrews]

She said that the veins roll when they're big.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I think she's full of crap. I've never had a problem. Come on, dude.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I.

[Adam Schaefer]

It was.

[Sal Destefano]

I was like, this is.

[Adam Schaefer]

What are the.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm like, this is comical, right?

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like. It's on top of it.

[Austin]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

It's like, the hardest part for me is that is like, why? And she's like, over here.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, no, you're gonna. Gonna be hard.

[Kyle]

I remember Courtney telling me all kinds of stories where she had to actually come in and do an IV on top of, like, a little kid's head. And there's just, like. You know, the thing is, you either got it or you don't. Like, if you're a good nurse and you. You. That's your thing.

[Sal Destefano]

I feel like that, too. I feel like you. Because I've had. So. I mean, we do our blood work every six months, and we. We're all used to that stuff.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Very fast.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Some people are just amazing.

[Kyle]

Real efficient.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And then others are like. They're okay. There's. There's definitely a spectrum here that was.

[Kyle]

And that's a comedy of errors, for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, totally comedy.

[Sal Destefano]

I mean, all the. The I'm of. I've had blood drawn or taken and stuff like that probably 100 times.

[Justin Andrews]

And that was the worst. Yeah. Like, the time you needed.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, could it not be, like, the.

[Sal Destefano]

Middle of the pack or something? Like the worst, like, come on, man.

[Kevin]

Seriously.

[Kyle]

More suffering, please.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, hey, man, thank you for sharing that, bro. Yeah, we love you, dude.

[Sal Destefano]

You guys asked me on Wednesday. I wasn't. I wasn't ready because I. I feel you. I didn't know. I did. Almost broke, dude. So I just.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, you didn't. Good. No good. We're here.

[Kyle]

Coming through it.

[Justin Andrews]

We're here. What do you expect, like, a week.

[Sal Destefano]

Longer of just garbage, you know, bro?

[Justin Andrews]

What do people say?

[Sal Destefano]

So, I mean, a lot of videos I watch, people are talking. Months later, they're still not normal. So I. I Expect a week probably of still miserable sleep. Yeah, like miserable sleep and stuff like that. So I'm, I'm hoping by next week I can get like at least a night. And I, I'll take five hours of sleep, four or five hours of sleep. I'll take that straight. Like I've had broken half hours. That's the most I've had. So I would just, I would love for a four hour block. Would just. Oh, would be the most amazing thing ever. So if I can get that by end of week, that'll make me feel good. Because now at this point, that's the most torturous thing right now. But the day, at least the daytimes, like, I mean, I feel.

[Kyle]

I'm surprised you have coherent thought right now.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I was actually nervous about today. Like, you know, I really.

[Justin Andrews]

You operate really well in little sleep. Yeah. Better than anybody. I don't know how you do it.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm like, well, you say all the smart stuff on the podcast.

[Justin Andrews]

It's a little bar. Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

I don't gotta, I don't gotta contribute anything, really.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Just don't ask me any hard question. You ask me a hard question right now. Adam Lee Smith interviewed me. I'd say, oh, yeah, yeah, great, great conversation with him. But like, I actually, he asked me. I mean, obviously I'm not. I wasn't going through that quite yet or anything like that. Although I was on the front end of it and I was, I thought we were just. I thought he was going to kind of dive more in my relationship, but he wanted me to talk about like developing other, other men. And he, like, he started asking me like, stuff about like, how to, you know, if, if a like, woman is.

[Adam Schaefer]

Treating a man like this, can you develop that leader?

[Sal Destefano]

This is like stuff that's like, bro, this is your field, not mine.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, I had to defer, but I'm like, you know, I'm not the therapist.

[Sal Destefano]

But you just thinking about like, like hard questions. I was like, I didn't think that was. I thought we were gonna be like, he's gonna do like a full like analysis on me. And I was just gonna be open about it, but he started asking me like therapy questions.

[Kyle]

You busted your test drive relationship thing.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, no, no, no. That's the best school.

[Sal Destefano]

No, we did, we had a great. It's going to be a really cool. I mean, I love the one we have.

[Justin Andrews]

He was so good.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I can't wait to air that for the audience too. And then, and then him and I had A really good conversation. Katrina will like it because she got the. You know, she. I got to pump her tires for a full podcast.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, nice.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I had Father Steve on my series, and.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, how was that, bro?

[Justin Andrews]

He can. He's. Well, of course, he's. I love him. He's such a great guy, such a nice guy.

[Kyle]

What's his background again? Because, I mean, I know you're going to get into a little bit of. Because he lifts and he's huge.

[Justin Andrews]

But he became a. First of all, he became a. He didn't become a priest till he was in his later 20s. He was one of the. He took a while before he.

[Sal Destefano]

Actually that's considered late. Later 20s. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, he got into the seminary.

[Sal Destefano]

I know, but I mean, is priesthood normally that early?

[Justin Andrews]

They start yearly earlier, usually.

[Sal Destefano]

Wow, I did not know that.

[Justin Andrews]

So he. He had a normal job, corporate job. He raised money for companies, which is now what he does for Word on Fire. Do you guys want to know. First off, he's almost 60, which. He looks amazing. You guys want to know the last time he competed? When in bodybuilding? 2019. He was on stage.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, that.

[Kyle]

During.

[Justin Andrews]

In 2019. In his. In his. In his Speedo, posing. And he won. He got the.

[Kyle]

Wears a little color.

[Justin Andrews]

He got first and over.

[Sal Destefano]

That would be hilarious, dude.

[Justin Andrews]

Hey, how do you.

[Sal Destefano]

How do you judge him? Bad, right?

[Adam Schaefer]

God's watch. 10.

[Sal Destefano]

10. 10.

[Justin Andrews]

But he connected bodybuilding with the spiritual walk. And he did such a great. Because I'm like, bodybuilding. I'm like, oh, Father Steve, you have an issue with strength training?

[Sal Destefano]

Ooh, let me hear. I'm so curious.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, he said a lot that I can't even put. He actually. Okay, let me ask you guys this. You can be. Gonna have to be gentle. How often am I speechless? Never. Okay. I was speechless. Like 10 times.

[Kyle]

Just right there.

[Justin Andrews]

Small pause. He was saying things, and he was just blowing my mind. But one of the things I remember that he said was he goes, you know, competing in bodybuilding, for me, he goes, there are parallels to the spiritual walk. I'm like.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, I could see the discipline.

[Sal Destefano]

And sacrifice right away.

[Justin Andrews]

That's easy, right?

[Sal Destefano]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

He was talking about going on stage. He goes, you're. Yes. He goes, you're on stage.

[Sal Destefano]

Interesting.

[Justin Andrews]

He goes, you're on stage being judged by others. You're almost naked. You can't hide anything. And they're pointing out vulnerability of it, and you're vulnerable and you're presenting your flaws. And I'm like, wow, Father Steve, you Just made bodybuilding sound spiritual. But there's so much that he can do, weak delts, so much that he connected and he's. And he's a real meathead, by the way. He's a legit meat.

[Sal Destefano]

Did you get to ask him a little bit about.

[Adam Schaefer]

Because we.

[Sal Destefano]

We talk about how we typically do not. The callers that we get. We tend to discourage them from bodybuilding. Did you talk a little bit about, like, you know, like, where you have to be, you know, with your body dysmorphia?

[Justin Andrews]

He's just such a. I mean, he's. He's. No, he talked about the gym he goes to, how the church can learn a lot from gym culture. Like, if you're in a gym. If you go to a hardcore. We've said this before. You go to a hardcore gym and you're struggling with your weight, okay? You're welcomed. You're not just welcomed, you're encouraged. And in fact, if there's ever a moron that decides to discourage you openly in a gym like that, that person will get kicked out by everybody else, because that's not the culture. He's like, you know, the church could use. Could do better at that. You know, where somebody walks in and they're just starting to pursue their faith. They don't know much, but they know they want to go in this direction, but they're bringing along with them, like, everybody. By the way, I don't care how mature you are spiritually, we all have sin with us. But he's like. You walk in and some people feel like they're looked down upon. So he talked a lot about all these incredible things. It was just so great. We had a great workout. Well, I had a good workout because of what we talked about, but you could tell you want to do more. He wanted to get after it, which is pretty funny. He really wanted to get after it. He's a total meathead. It's so great. Then I had him over for dinner and then he.

[Sal Destefano]

You deadlift him? Would you do.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, no, no. We did bodybuilding stuff. Straight bro workout. He's been lifting weights since he was 14. Wow. Since he was 14.

[Sal Destefano]

That's so cool.

[Justin Andrews]

I know, isn't it? Anyway, that's. That episode will come out at some point, and then you guys will be able to see.

[Sal Destefano]

That's cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

I'll check it out.

[Justin Andrews]

Good stuff. Element is an electrolyte powder you add to your water. No artificial sweeteners, no sugar. It's got the right amount of sodium. Most Electrolyte powders don't have enough sodium to make a difference. That's not element. Element makes a difference. Get better pumps, better performance. Go try them out. Go to drinklement.com mindpump and on that link you'll get a free sample pack of their most popular drink. Mix flavors with any purchase. Back to the show.

[Doug]

Our first caller is Ariel from Florida.

[Justin Andrews]

Ariel, hello. How are you?

[Ariel]

How are you guys?

[Justin Andrews]

Good.

[Ariel]

Love the show. Been listening for a few years now and I'm so appreciative of all the knowledge I gained from this podcast. So thanks for that and thanks for having me on.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank you. How can I help you?

[Ariel]

Yeah, so some background on me. I'm 27 and have lived a very active lifestyle for the past 14 years. I work out five days a week, three strength days and two cardio days. The gym I go to was originally a CrossFit gym, but has shifted away from that to more of a strength and conditioning focus. The coaches and programming are amazing. They all listen to you guys so I trust them outside the gym. I'm an avid surfer and tennis player. I typically play tennis a couple times a week and surf whenever I can. Some days I'll work out, surf and play tennis. Less common, but it definitely happens sometimes. For the past five years I've been working at a desk and this year I've really been feeling it. My back is tight and sore pretty consistently no matter how much I stretch. I consider myself a very flexible person, but now I can like barely foam roll my back without it feeling like it's going to break. I know I sound dramatic, but in addition to my mid back tightness, I've been feeling a little bit thicker and not as lean as I'd like. My peers say I look great, but inside I feel bloated and puffy. I eat around 120 grams of protein a day, stick to whole foods, and try to buy organic meat and produce whenever I can. Since noticing the bloating and feeling thicker, I started adding more walks during the week to increase my steps. On days when I'm not playing tennis or serving, I'll walk a mile. And four weeks in, I started to feel a lot better about myself. I try not to look at the scale since it can mess with me mentally, but back in February I took an in body scan and it came out to be like 132 pounds with 21% body fat and 58 pounds of muscle mass. My energy feels good, I'm pretty strong for my size and I perform well in all my workouts, but I can't help feeling like I should be doing more. Since I don't feel lean, my coach thinks I should chill out a bit, trade a cardio day for rest day and just walk more to work hours. I think that's solid advice, but it's definitely hard for me to skip a gym day. So my question to you guys would be, how can I achieve leaning out with everything that I'm doing? And what steps would you suggest for me in reducing or managing my back tightness? And a small update. I've been seeing a chiropractor, which has been helping a ton, and I have been skipping one of my cardio days for a hot yoga class instead, but everything else is pretty much the same.

[Adam Schaefer]

How many days of lifting did you say you're doing?

[Ariel]

Three days.

[Adam Schaefer]

Three days.

[Justin Andrews]

When you say bloat and puffiness, are you talking about digestive bloat? Gut bloat?

[Ariel]

I guess, like in my midsection. Yeah, some bloat there for sure. I just feel like I was once, like, a skinny, lean person, and now that I'm like a woman, I'm just gaining weight in areas. I'm like, huh? This is like, not normal for me. Or it wasn't normal before. And now I'm like, I don't know. I just feel like I'm, like, blossoming into an adult and it's just something different.

[Justin Andrews]

You're still real young, but okay. So inflammation and blow can come from digestive issues or inflammation from the gut. So if you've noticed any changes in your digestion, like regularity, constipation, actual gas, bloating, that kind of stuff, then working on gut health, which quite common, by the way. Gut issues are quite common, especially in young women. They tend to be more common in young women because women tend to have issues with regularity more often than men do, Although it's also common in men. So that's one thing you can look at. By the way, you're lean. 21% is a good body fat percentage. It's a really good, healthy fit. Hormones aren't gonna get affected negatively. Some women can go below 20 and stay in the 18, 17, but in my experience, a significant percentage of women, when they start to dip below, like, 19 consistently, we start to see hormone issues. So we start to see issues with, like, you know, things that would affect fertility. You'd also, if you have any changes in your period, then sometimes that's indicative of over training. I think your coaches. I think your coach is probably right. That you probably maybe take a little bit of time off, you know, Hot yoga for a cardio days is an okay trade. Yin yoga would have been better. Hot yoga is kind of an intense version of yoga. And the other thing is this is how many. So you have a desk job, so you're sitting at a desk for eight hours at a time.

[Ariel]

I mean, I work from home, so I have a standing desk. So I like, I try and stand, but I find myself sitting most of the time.

[Justin Andrews]

Here's the thing with sitting. That sucks. Strength training will protect you a lot. Being active protects you a lot, but Nothing protects you 100% from sitting so much. The best thing that I found in the clients that I've. I've worked with a lot of clients that sit at a desk for long periods of time. The best thing that I've ever had them do was every 45 or 60 minutes, I would have them do three to five minutes of mobility. So literally they would have like, you know, you could use an Apple watch or a timer. Thing goes off. They would stand up and they'd do like a trigger session or some mobility for five minutes and sit back down. That was the base best. Like, that solved the whole thing was to do it, but it's, It's. You got to be real consistent with it. So you're going to get up six or seven times a day and do like three to five minutes of mobility. And. And like I said, they see a huge difference.

[Kyle]

Have you done any food insensitivity tests or any kind of like, gut testing to see?

[Ariel]

Yeah, you know, I haven't done like a actual. I've done a couple tests, but it was kind of like one of those cheaper ones that, you know, aren't through, like, legit labs. But that was kind of like my next thing to figure out because I do feel better when I'm not eating like, a ton of like, grains and gluten. But I don't want to be, like, so restrictive with, like, my diet because I can be pretty, like, hardcore about what I eat. And I kind of just want to be like, a little more chill, laid back because I already eat super healthy. So that's kind of like where I'm at. And like, since the embody, like, I have gained, like, I'm 140 now and like, I feel good, but I. Yeah, I still feel like, puffy, dude.

[Sal Destefano]

It could be.

[Adam Schaefer]

You could be a slight intolerance to something you could have with the grains or gluten or something that's just it's not enough to really hit you hard, but enough to just kind of have this low level inflammation and water retention happening.

[Justin Andrews]

Mindful of, I'll tell you this, in my experience, if I have people eliminate gluten for just gluten for 30 days, almost always they notice a positive. And I'm talking, we're pretty controlled with the macro. So it's not like the macros changed, especially bloat. It just makes it for inflammation and in that category. So every time I've had people remove gluten, not every time. Most of the time they're like, man, I notice a big, like they say they notice a difference. So it's not subtle, it's like, whoa, I notice a big difference. Within that category. My female clients noticed the biggest difference. And if you look at the data on gluten intolerance, it tends to be skew a little bit worse for women. It doesn't hurt to cut it out just to go gluten free for a month to see if you notice a difference. And if you want to go further, you could do gut testing, but I would just try that out and start there. A little bit of mobility throughout the day and maybe reducing the intensity. Because here's what it looks like for someone who's really consistent with fitness like you, okay. Is we tend to, you know, if over here is the most I can tolerate and over here is the least amount to cause positive effects, we tend to push it towards the most we could tolerate because we like it, we enjoy it. There's other benefits. Mental gets the day started, breaks up the day, or there's a component of being around your friends or whatever. And so we tend to always kind of bump up against what we can tolerate. And then maybe if you're smart, which it sounds like you are, if you go, if you pass that, then you know, because, okay, I need to take a little break. But it's only really when you step past that. But what it probably should look like is you're more over here in the middle and then sometimes you bump up against. And so you might, it might be good to go through a little season, like a three month period of cutting gluten out and just kind of reducing the intensity.

[Kyle]

Isolate it. I mean, this data points the end of the day. Like, I know that cheese, you know, I have a slight intolerance to cheese I'm not going to eliminate from my diet, but knowing that it affects me at a certain level, I can kind of navigate and know like what to kind of Tweak, you know, just so you know that you. It's a tool that you have at your disposal.

[Justin Andrews]

How's your sleep, by the way?

[Ariel]

It's. It's good. It's very consistent.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, that's good.

[Ariel]

Seven, eight hours every night.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you supplement?

[Ariel]

I take creatine.

[Justin Andrews]

You don't take vitamin D? Magnesium, multi? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You should. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good idea. You can go get a nutrient test if you want to get real crazy.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, I'd also, if you're open to it, I'd love to see you try something like a Maps 15 protocol for a little while. I think that that could be it too. You don't just stop your sport activity and stuff that you do on the weekends. I think continue doing that. But if you are open to modifying the training during the week, running something like a Maps 15 protocol while also playing with some of the foods like we're talking about, I think would be really beneficial.

[Justin Andrews]

Here's the thing too. Like, you know, you're active. You've been active for a long time. You don't supplement with a multivitamin. Your calories probably aren't very high. Do you know how many calories you eat?

[Ariel]

I probably eat around like 1700-2000.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So that's pretty low for all that activity.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So you might even benefit from bumping it. But my point is. Which you could play with, right? You could play with a little reverse diet and see how you feel. But the. My point is you're getting. If you're not taking a high quality multivitamin, like B vitamins, iron, magnesium, D, you know, relatively common where you're close to deficiency. You probably don't have a deficiency because you would know you'd have like crack, you know, crack lips or you'd have pale skin or whatever. But. Yeah, but there's optimal and then there's kind of like, okay, I'm just kind of. You're taking in 17 to 1800 calories. Which of micronutrients. And so that's not a lot of micronutrients.

[Adam Schaefer]

Also consider the context. You're. You're an athlete.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Adam Schaefer]

You play sports, you lift weights. Like you're not just a regular person who's not doing anything too. So you're probably under eating for a regular person. And then on top of that, you have all that activity. It's just, it's not served.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I would go like multivitamin, vitamin D, cut gluten, and then Kind of just. Honestly, Ariel, if you just cut the intensity down, you don't even have to cut the workouts. Just, like, go easier in the workouts and then see how you feel after, like, a couple weeks. And I would be surprised if all those things didn't make you feel a difference.

[Ariel]

Yeah. Would. Would you guys worry, like, for me, like, how much fat I'm eating every day? Like, is that a concern?

[Adam Schaefer]

Only if it's too low. Only if it's too low.

[Justin Andrews]

You're not getting too much fat.

[Adam Schaefer]

No. No. 1700 calories. You're not getting too. I'd be more worried about you. Too low.

[Justin Andrews]

You better be eating more than, like, 60 grams of fat a day. Do you know I'm.

[Ariel]

I'm eating, like, 80 to.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, you're fine.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you're fine.

[Ariel]

And then do you think, like, how much. Like, I know steps are important. Like, I hear you guys talk about it over and over again. Like, is that for me, like, is that something. I'm so active, like, on my days where I'm doing stuff, is that really important for someone like me to go outside?

[Justin Andrews]

No. So. So it's always important to be active. But, Ariel, steps are an easy proxy for activity.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So when we're measuring steps, what we're really trying to do is look at activity. That's why we use steps. It's easy. But if you're active all the time. Yeah. Like, if you were. Let me put it this way.

[Kyle]

It becomes irrelevant when you're active all the time.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Like, if. If you. If you swam all day long, but you. So no steps, because you can't register that a step. Like, does that mean I got to go walk on top? No, you're active. So if you're really active, you don't need to throw a bunch of steps on top of it. The only thing I would do is break up your sitting. Yeah. With not workouts. Movement. And so it literally looks up. It looks like you stand up because you do a little bit of back mobility, and then you sit back.

[Sal Destefano]

I was gonna say because of your. Your low back tightness.

[Adam Schaefer]

I bet 90 90s would be so good for you to do just throughout the day.

[Justin Andrews]

Maybe some cat cow, you know, on the ground, which you probably are familiar with through yoga because you said. What, your mid back. Is that where you feel it? Your mid back?

[Ariel]

Yeah, yeah. It's all in my mid back. It's kind of gnarly.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah. Cat cow. Get on the ground. Do three. Three minutes of cat cow with the corresponding breaths, and that'll help with that because you're probably also. So mid back tightness oftentimes is connected to or causes what we would label as what's called dysfunctional breathing. So especially if you're. If you're. If you're the kind of person that tends to tighten up when you're focused and concentrated or stressed, then you're not taking these full diaphragmatic breaths. And so what happens is the thoracic spine doesn't expand.

[Ariel]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And it kind of just tightens while you're breathing in and out. And then that tightness is what makes you feel like it needs to pop or crack. So when you get on the ground and you do cat cow, you know, the big full breath in, breath out move through the belly and then the chest and then out, which you've probably practiced in yoga, would probably help.

[Ariel]

Yeah, that definitely hits home because this mid back tightness started whenever I stopped doing, like, my Wim Hof exercises. I do, like a full thing, thing, like 15 minutes of breath work every week. And I stopped doing that because I was, like, tired of doing it. And then that's when, like, my back started to get super tight after that.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

The fact that you know how to do that breathing, though, like, just doing that with cat cow, like, literally every hour, two minutes. Like, don't even overdo it. Just get down, break up the day. If I. I mean, I'd set, like, since you work at home on a desk, I'd have like a little thing that just literally alarm goes off and.

[Sal Destefano]

Every time it hits.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, I get down, do three to four sets of that while I'm breathing.

[Sal Destefano]

Get back.

[Justin Andrews]

Are you feeling any back tightness right now?

[Ariel]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

I bet you right now if I had you do a real full breath in and breath out, I bet you'd feel a little bit of relief.

[Ariel]

Yeah, no, whenever you said that, I took a, like a deeper breath than I was, and I was like, okay.

[Kyle]

Yeah, yeah, Expansive again.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, that'll help.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, good. I think we found the root cause of that, but yeah, gluten and multivitamin for someone, like, if you were my client, those are the two things I would be like, let's try this.

[Ariel]

Yeah. Would you like. Is multivitamin powder form, like, good, or would you prefer pill?

[Justin Andrews]

It depends on the brand. I mean, Legion, That's a great one. We work with Legion. I know Mike very well. I know he tests everything. It's good. I would add an additional vitamin D on Top of that, he's got a.

[Adam Schaefer]

Vitamin D. That's great, too.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So like 1,000. I use inexpensive, inexpensive supplement. You just take it every day.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Go through Legion. They've got both.

[Ariel]

Both.

[Adam Schaefer]

Those are great. They're multivitamin and their vitamin. Vitamin D with K is great.

[Ariel]

Okay. All right, great.

[Justin Andrews]

Thanks for calling in.

[Adam Schaefer]

Check back in with us after a month or so. I'd like to hear how things are going once you kind of take some of that stuff, what you, what you took from that.

[Ariel]

Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, guys.

[Justin Andrews]

You got it. Thank you.

[Ariel]

Thanks.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, a lot of people, like, the, the rib cage is in between the ribs. There's all these different muscles. The rib cage itself expands and can shrink and compresses and breathing deep, we know this. You breathe in deep, your chest comes out. Right. Your belly comes out, and you'll, you'll, you'll stretch some of the muscles or the muscles, should I say relax to allow that expansion in the rib cage. And if you're taking shallow breaths, which we don't realize, you're in a. Especially this. When I'm deceptive, but it happens when I'm really focused. Like, my breathing is. I have to like, oh, I gotta breathe.

[Kyle]

You're sitting a lot too.

[Justin Andrews]

And it's just this over position. So what happens is all those muscles just start to, like, just tighten and stabilize and tighten.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, that's stiffness and tightness cause this kind of low level inflammation. If she's eating something that she doesn't. It doesn't have to be bad. Just doesn't fully agree with her and training as much as she's doing, especially if it's intense because she's doing strength and quote unquote conditioning training in like CrossFit vibes like, like that. The combination, all that is enough to just have this kind of low level systemic inflammation that causes just water. Because she looks like she's holding water. Like, when I look at her, like, she looks like a healthy, fit girl, but she looks like she's just kind of holding water everywhere. And so that could be related more to the food or it could be just this kind of low level stress and over training a little bit. And the combination. Yeah, Yeah. I think if she just scaled back a bit on the intensity and maybe paid attention a little bit to some of the things in the diet, I think. And then takes the multivitamin, takes the cat, cow. I mean, that, that right there, she should feel a million times better.

[Doug]

Our next caller is Austin from Indiana.

[Justin Andrews]

What's up, man?

[Adam Schaefer]

You doing, Austin?

[Sal Destefano]

Pretty good.

[Austin]

How are you guys doing?

[Justin Andrews]

Good, we're good.

[Austin]

I'm gonna pull up my notes here. Just what I wrote real quick. Thank you guys for taking this.

[Justin Andrews]

You driving, bro?

[Adam Schaefer]

Don't crash on us, dog.

[Justin Andrews]

What are you doing? You're gonna read your notes while you're driving?

[Adam Schaefer]

Maybe pull over.

[Austin]

So I'm at work right now. I'm about to pull into our brush dump. Okay, but so what I got here, I' I'm a dad of two little girls. I started this whole weight loss journey in January where I weighed 330 pounds. Just awful habits. Didn't work out. Didn't care to do any of that in high school and in college I did football. I wrestled in high school. So I come from that athletic background. I began cutting my calories at first when I almost zero idea of what to do to 1500 a day, which left me obviously pretty hungry. But I was able to get down to about 265 pounds, which is where I'm at now. And that's now five days a week in the gym. I do chest, back, arm, legs, everything individual. So it's four days, but I'm in the gym five days a week. I did a TDEE calculator and that said that for me maintenance would be about 3,200 calories. And I felt like that I just didn't trust it. I felt it was too high. So that's why I went down to that low number. But then I just kind of stopped making progress there. I'm really trying to hit my 200 grams of protein a day. I've been. Just plateaued and I don't know how to really overcome that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta reverse out. First off, good job with your weight loss. But, but your calories now are so low and your activity is so high. Like, where are you gonna go from here? You're gonna exercise more, cut your calories more so you put yourself in a bad position. So now what you're gonna do is you're gonna increase your calories and focus on getting stronger.

[Adam Schaefer]

Go build some muscle.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're actually, you're actually in a, a very solvable, easy place for us. I mean, I, I'd make an adjustment on the program, I'd increase the calories and, and I think you're going to see a big difference. Like I get you out of a chest, back, arm, legs, type of a split and put you on something like a maps anabolic routine. And increase your calories by about 3, 400 calories and just focus on getting strong, right? So you did, you did a good job. You knocked some body fat off, which is cool. But now it's time to build muscle. You didn't build, you didn't build a lot of muscle in that process. If you're eating 2,000 calories, Guy, you just drop body fat. You just, you can drop some weight, which is cool, that's fine. But now it's time to reverse, come the other way and, and focus on building muscle. Even though you may go, I got a lot more weight I still want to lose. The way to. The path to there is actually building muscle and building your metabolism. That's what'll get that, that body, the.

[Justin Andrews]

Rest of that body, 2400 calories, maps anabolic and get stronger and then maybe after, I don't know, a month, go up to 2700 calories, 2600 calories. Keep building some muscle, keep working your way up slowly until you get to close to 3,000, which you should be able to do a guy your size with that much activity. And by the way, what's going to happen throughout that period is you probably, you're going to gain some muscle and.

[Adam Schaefer]

Strength and you're going to lean out.

[Justin Andrews]

And you'll probably lean out a little bit.

[Adam Schaefer]

Your scale might not move a lot because we're increasing calories, which, that's okay right now, but I bet you feel it different. In fact, here's a good time to just do circumference, just literally your waist, watch your waist, watch your waist. Add the calories. Go get strong and monitor that. I don't really care about your weight right now.

[Justin Andrews]

And once you're sitting at like 3200, 3300 calories, you've been there for a while and you feel good and you're strong. Then you want to cut. You could cut from there and watch the fat come off your body.

[Austin]

So that number I gave you guys, the 3200 TD EE, it's, it's, it's.

[Adam Schaefer]

Actually a good number, but you don't want to jump there from where you're.

[Sal Destefano]

At right now, right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Your body's now adapted to 2, 000 calories. So if you do that huge jump, you're gonna put on body fat. But the where it's correct is a guy your size should be eating about that many calories. And so, but we need to, we need to work our way up there. So you wanna, you wanna start with like the 350 to 400 calories more. Just like Sal said, build some muscle, get strong. Once you start seeing like some, you know, bench press, squat, some of those lifts go up in strength, like good strength gains and you feel good and you're not gaining any weight, Then you bump the calories again, and then you kind of stay there for a little bit until you feel strength go up again and you're not seeing the scale go again, then bump the calories again. And so you're going to stair step your way up to over 3, 000 calories. That is the path. But not jumping right there.

[Justin Andrews]

Here's how you'll mess it up. If you go, oh, cool, I got to eat more calories. And then you just eat a bunch of garbage.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, right.

[Justin Andrews]

And you don't track it in and control it. That's. That's how people tend to mess this up. So. But, but otherwise, bro, you're gonna love this because now you're gonna eat more and you're just gonna get strong.

[Adam Schaefer]

You'll feel better.

[Justin Andrews]

You'll feel good.

[Adam Schaefer]

You'll feel so much better.

[Austin]

Okay. Because, I mean, there's that mental struggle for me, and I know a lot of other people where I am probably stepping on the scale too much. Like, I like to check in and see how much I weigh. And since June, that number has been hovering right at the same spot. So I'm gonna try and leave the scale alone, I guess, for a little bit.

[Justin Andrews]

Measure your waist. Wow. Measure your waist, but don't use even waist. This just kind of a check in. We have strength, get strong.

[Sal Destefano]

Austin.

[Adam Schaefer]

We don't, we don't talk a lot about it on the show, but we have what's called a concierge program where you check in with a trainer once a month. That's all, that's all you do. And they, they're the ones monitoring your calories, monitoring all the, all your dimensions, and will constantly be kind of keeping you on the right path. If that's something you're interested in, I can have one of the trainers call you. So it's not like full blown training, seeing train all the time. It's not like something super expensive like that, but it's something where we're overseeing the programming and the diet part of the, of your training throughout it just a guy like you that kind of knows what he's doing, ex athlete, it's not like you need all the hand holding, but having someone kind of guide you and check in with you once a month is super valuable. If it's something you're interested, I can have someone call you.

[Justin Andrews]

Definitely.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, cool.

[Austin]

And then.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Austin]

Split wise. So, like, I do three sets of 12 of. I'll do, like three or four different movements each day for whatever body part I'm hitting.

[Justin Andrews]

We're gonna send you.

[Adam Schaefer]

We're gonna send you a program. They're gonna. They're gonna take care of. They're gonna take care of your programming, too.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, perfect.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. You just gotta show up to gym, eat what they tell you to eat, stay on your path. You're gonna. You're gonna see. You're gonna see great results, dude. It's time to get. It's trying to build some muscle.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Way more fun than what you were doing.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Austin]

Awesome. All right, well, thank you guys very much.

[Justin Andrews]

You got it, man.

[Adam Schaefer]

All right, brother.

[Justin Andrews]

Thanks, Bye. Just. I love that we had this right now, because I just want people to realize the power of metabolic adaptation. You have a guy that's almost 6 foot tall, 265, working out a lot. It looks like he has a physical job. If I had to guess, he has a physical job just by the call and the driving and stuff. So you got a big dude moving that much, and he can't lose any more weight on 2,000 calories. That's metabolic adaptation. And here's what would happen if he cut down to 1500 calories, lose a couple more pounds. He'd lose muscle.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, well, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And he'd feel like garbage, and his testosterone would be in the floor plummet. And then here's what would happen from there. He'd be like, I, this sucks. And then he'd gain all the weight, go right back. That's right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yep.

[Doug]

Our next caller is Stacey from Kentucky.

[Justin Andrews]

Hi, Stacey.

[Adam Schaefer]

How you doing, Stacey?

[Kyle]

Good afternoon.

[Justin Andrews]

Hi.

[Stacey]

Thank you all for taking my questions. I really appreciate it.

[Justin Andrews]

How can we help you?

[Stacey]

Well, so I just started recently listening to your podcast. The very first podcast I heard was when you all had Dr. Mary Claire Haver.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Stacey]

With you all.

[Justin Andrews]

Awesome.

[Stacey]

And then here recently, I listened to a podcast back in August, and you all gave a quick two to three day workout information that you could do for 30 minutes at home.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep.

[Stacey]

So that's the one. That's the program that I've been following. I started in September. So I have two questions based off that program. The first one is, so right now I've been kind of using £15 for the exercises. How do I know when to switch up to a higher weight?

[Justin Andrews]

It gets Easy.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You want to challenge yourself. Right. You don't want your form. Excuse me. You don't want to compromise your form, but you want the challenge to be there because that's what gets the body stronger and more fit is the challenge. So if you've been using 15s and at first it was hard, and now you're like, I could do this really easy, then you probably want to go heavier or do more reps.

[Stacey]

Okay.

[Kyle]

Especially if you maintain form.

[Stacey]

Okay. So the next. So when I start in November, I do the 8 reps, so that would probably be a good time to go ahead and switch to the a higher weight.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

Yep.

[Adam Schaefer]

Also, keep in mind, Stacy, too, like, it was my clients that I'm trying to really push strength. Right. And we're trying to focus on this If. If our goal. We're doing, let's say, 10 reps on this set, and I'm. And I'm encouraging you. Come on, let's. Let's lift more weight. And you're like, I don't know that 25 seems like a lot, Adam. I'm like, let's just do it. And if you stopped at 8, it's not the end of the world. In fact, I would rather see you try and challenge yourself with a heavy weight. Realize, oh, wow, I couldn't even get 10 out of 10. Then to always choose a weight that you. You definitely could get 10 with. It's totally okay if we fall short one or two reps when we're trying to focus on building strength. That's a better sign than picking a weight that you can always get 10. That's totally okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep. Okay.

[Stacey]

Perfect. And then the second kind of question I have is, I am a post menopausal woman, so I know that's kind of your all's area too. And I'm trying to get rid of the menopausal belly. And I've heard conflicting reports prior to when I emailed you all about adding intense aerobic exercise. So should I. Or should I just keep with working out the two to three days a week, go with the 8,000 steps and just increase my activity?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you're doing great. Listen, you just started in September, Correct. And what do you. What'd you do before that? Did you do any exercise, anything like that?

[Stacey]

I was mostly just walking.

[Justin Andrews]

You're doing great.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm looking at your email. You have three kids. You're a teacher. So you work. You work and you got kids. How old are your kids?

[Stacey]

22. 20. And 14.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. So you got a teenager at home. That's really stressful.

[Sal Destefano]

Yes.

[Stacey]

The adults are, too.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, they can. You're kicking butt. You're doing really well.

[Adam Schaefer]

You are.

[Justin Andrews]

You don't quite. Don't. You don't. Here's the deal. When you're doing the strength training, the goal is to get stronger. So think like that. So let me challenge and see if I can get stronger. 8,000 steps a day is beautiful. If you want to Bump it to 10,000 at some point, that's great. Above 15,000, not necessary. Typically, that's a lot. I think 8 to 10,000. You're doing good. It says here you're tracking protein and fiber.

[Sal Destefano]

Awesome.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. Are you sticking to whole natural foods?

[Stacey]

For the most part, yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You're doing great. And I'm going to guess right now because it's been a short period of time, you probably already feel a lot better.

[Stacey]

Oh, yes, absolutely.

[Justin Andrews]

Energy's better. You're probably sleeping better. Better libido. You're probably already. Your husband's probably commenting on your body changing already.

[Stacey]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You're doing great. Don't question it. Yeah, Stick with the. Just keep. Just keep going. Keep moving. You're doing great. I can send you a program that I think would be. Now, you work out at home. You have dumbbells. Is that what you got?

[Stacey]

Yes, I do. Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you have a physio ball at home?

[Stacey]

I do not.

[Sal Destefano]

No.

[Justin Andrews]

They're super inexpensive. Let me send you a map starter. Okay with that, you just need dumbbells and a physio ball, and now you've got a much better program. Program. So it's got phases, it's got exercises, got demos in there so you can click on it, watch the video. That's the program I want you to follow. Get yourself a physio ball, and you're set.

[Adam Schaefer]

Stacy, are you. Are you. Are you on Facebook? Do you have a Facebook account?

[Stacey]

I do.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Adam Schaefer]

I'm gonna have Doug put you in our private forum also, because we got. All of our trainers are in there. So if you got a question, as you're going, just like you asked us today, you got a question or you're questioning anything that you're doing, post it in there and one of those trainers will get back to you and make sure you stay. But you're doing great right now.

[Justin Andrews]

Let me just encourage you some more. By the way, what grade do you teach?

[Stacey]

Actually, I teach gifted education, so I do K through 12.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, good for you. So, you know, you're teaching Kids. If you could get a kid to write, that's good. But if you could get a kid to love writing, that's better. Okay.

[Ariel]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

The most important thing, Stacy, for you, because you're new on this journey, the most important thing of all the things that we're talking about is that you develop a relationship with this where you like it, you enjoy it, and you want to keep doing it. Okay?

[Stacey]

I do. And that's why I love your all's two to three day program, because it fits. Fits perfectly in my schedule.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And the reason why I'm saying this is what happens sometimes is you start seeing some stuff happen and oh, my God. And then maybe you start to question it, and then it's like, no, I want to push it and I want to. I just want to get better and at results. And you start doing things you don't. That you don't like as much or things you can't maintain consistently. And now you're going down a path of this is not something you're going to maintain. So just, just think relationship and be like, do I like this? Am I enjoying it? Am I having fun? Am I feeling good? You know, do I feel like I'm getting healthier? If that's all true, just keep going. And you're. You're crushing.

[Adam Schaefer]

Keep hitting that protein and fiber and keep trying to get strong. That's going to serve you a lot.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yep.

[Stacey]

Perfect. Thank you all.

[Adam Schaefer]

You got it.

[Justin Andrews]

We'll send that over to you.

[Stacey]

Okay, perfect. Thanks.

[Justin Andrews]

You got it. I'm so happy we captured her so early.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Good timing.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. Very good timing. She got on with us. She's moving in the right direction. The only way she would mess up is if she suddenly just went. Tried to go crazy with everything.

[Kyle]

Busters.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And then that tends to just crushes consist. It's like, I'm not going to be consistent because I hate this. So she's doing the right thing.

[Doug]

Our next caller is Kevin from Alberta.

[Justin Andrews]

What's up, Kevin?

[Adam Schaefer]

How you doing?

[Kevin]

Hey, guys. Good to see you again.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, man. What's happening?

[Kevin]

Not much, just like last time. Just finished training, so feeling good.

[Justin Andrews]

All right, dude, how can we help you?

[Kevin]

So I have been over the last few years working with a couple different personal trainers, mostly remotely. And then through work, I started using ChatGPT quite heavily, and I kind of recognized the opportunity to switch from my remote training to use ChatGPT as my trainer. So I've been experimenting with that for about eight weeks now. I'm in the first block that Chat designed for me. And, and I wanted to reach out and get your thoughts on what blind spots I might have. What am I, what am I potentially missing? And using Chat as my trainer versus an experienced live trainer.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, dude, the prompting is going to be everything.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

How well you prompt it with whatever little nagging injuries you have, like your level of stress. I've seen people do this really well and then seen other people do it not so well. So that has a lot to do with, with probably how it's spitting off for you. Tell me what you got so far.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, let's salvage.

[Adam Schaefer]

Sal thinks you're working with Satan, but.

[Sal Destefano]

Go ahead and tell me.

[Justin Andrews]

I figured you're a traitor to your species. Dude, what the hell? What's going on here?

[Kevin]

So what I found that's really great about it is I can screenshot everything from my Garmin app. So my hrv, my training stats, my sleep score, all of that and upload it, my training profile, lift volumes, this and that, and obviously I could do it 24 7. And if I do have an injury, I can just go, hey, Chat tweaked my QL this week. Can you suggest a modified version of day three? So like, like literally 24 7. But it is super unreliable if your prompts suck. So I'll say, give me a weekly summary of my training to date and it'll give me the wrong week or it'll miscount my lifting sessions. So you really got to police it. That's, that's what I've experienced. But just curious what else you might be thinking.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, Kevin, okay, so correct me if I'm wrong. You sound like an experienced, motivated fitness enthusiast.

[Kevin]

I'd say so.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah. And it says you're a BJJ athlete. How long have you been doing jiu jitsu and competing?

[Kevin]

About eight years.

[Justin Andrews]

Eight years. And you, have you always been active and working out and this is like a lifelong thing?

[Kevin]

Earlier in my life I was super active. Then there's like a 10 year period where I sat at a desk and got fat. And then mid-40s I got back into it.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. ChatGPT, or information tools in general are great for people who are hyper motivated. They enjoy looking at this kind of stuff. They break things down and really what they need is just good information or a way to take metrics and distill them down into advice that would potentially find holes or modify programming to small degrees to make changes. That's what it's good for. What it's not good for is for somebody who would benefit from working with a coach, and that's the relationship side of it. So you've been doing jiu jitsu for a while? Eight years. I'm assuming you're what, purple, brown, black? Are you brown? Brown belt. Okay. So are you teaching anybody yet?

[Kevin]

Not really, no.

[Justin Andrews]

But you've got some good coaches that have taught you?

[Kevin]

Definitely.

[Justin Andrews]

Now, the difference between a great coach and a coach that just knows moves is the relationship. It's the, like, it makes all the difference. It's like having a good coach in sports or a good teacher in school or a good trainer. It's that relationship aspect, and that just does everything, because humans are relationship beings. It's not a good coach or a good trainer. There's a lot of things that make up a good coach or trainer. A part of it is the right information. So you definitely got to know what you're doing. But that's like the bar. That's the bottom. That's like the bar. Like, at least got to have good information. You don't have that. Get out of the. Don't do this anymore. But way above that is their ability to coach people and work with people. So that's the big difference. But if you're the kind of guy, you love it, you're motivated, you like to break things down, plug things in, you analyze it, you don't, you know, you don't need or believe there's value for you. And having a coach, then you're. You're doing great.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, I mean, staying in that vein, right. This is the way I would make this decision of you is based off. What he just said is like, these coaches that you're hiring, are they basically just spitting you off diets and workout.

[Sal Destefano]

Plans and that's the extent of their.

[Adam Schaefer]

Coaching, then what you're doing is probably.

[Sal Destefano]

Better going to chat gbt.

[Adam Schaefer]

But if you have got a coach who's given you more insight than that and you have some sort of a relationship with them, where you're like, oh. Because, I mean, I. I mean, when I look back at my training career, very, very small percentage of it, I would say, was the 10. Yeah, well, just small percentage of this was the actual.

[Sal Destefano]

My.

[Adam Schaefer]

My knowledge around macros and programming. The rest of it was really my ability to help these people through life. You know, in fact, I felt more like a therapist than I really did a trainer. Right. And so I think that's what made me good at my craft or my job was I had that ability to do that mold that conversation to every person. I help helped the getting the answer to the macros, the science part of it. I mean, we're at a place now and with chat gbt that they, they can figure that out. So if your coach isn't giving you another level of that, that you feel that, then I think what you're doing with your knowledge and background is fine.

[Kyle]

Yeah. If they're going to get into more personal level of like asking you more questions you wouldn't even have thought to ask, I think that's, you know, where you can get the human element there. Where again, to, to the point of stress and relationships and outside effects and factors. I mean you can, you can get all the data points and aggregate that. And that's helpful. But I think too, to, to troubleshoot with a human, I think it's just so far like chat GBT's, I think like not quite there yet.

[Justin Andrews]

When it comes to programming, humans are still going to outperform ChatGPT. I'm sure that'll change at some point. But a human isn't always going to validate everything. ChatGPT as of right now tends to do that. So it's not going to say to you, hey, Kevin, it's not going to.

[Kyle]

Tell you you're wrong.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. It's not going to say to you, hey, man, I think you're a little obsessive. You need to take a little break or this doesn't seem mentally healthy. Like, it's just going to be like.

[Kyle]

Yeah, dude just wants to solve things for you.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So like give you hard facts. And as of right now, the best programming still comes from you human. So you're still Olympic coaches are still human. You know, they're still the best and they know the questions to ask and they also understand psychology, reading the client and what's going on. So there's that. But if you want information and you want something that aggregates data. Oh, yeah. And spits it out, like, that's great. In fact, the best coaches are using AI in that capacity to supplement what they're doing.

[Ariel]

Mm.

[Justin Andrews]

That.

[Kevin]

That makes perfect sense. In fact, thinking about this call today, I was actually thinking what would be ideal would be some sort of hybrid model where you had a, a coach for your strategic vision, but you use chatgpt like I am for your daily back and forth.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. No, 100%. Yeah, that's right.

[Adam Schaefer]

But I mean, I think this, this great. The takeaway I would take from this conversation is to like, really evaluate the people that you are Coaching with and, and ask yourself, are they giving me that, that other level of coaching and training that that chat GBT just can't do. But sounds like you're getting a lot of that.

[Justin Andrews]

What's the goal, Kevin, for you? Or is this for high level competition? Is that what you're doing?

[Kevin]

So, yeah, I go to Worlds every couple years, so that, that's there. But as I'm aging, it's honestly more about keeping up with the young guys at the gym. I'm starting to lose the desire to, to compete frequently and I just want to be able to perform on a weekly basis.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. I mean, you're, I, I think you're using it fine. I think if you really want to do well at your sport, nothing's going to be better than you working with an older, more experienced jiu jitsu fighter who's competed and gone through all that. You're not going to get that, at least not now from, from AI Also.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, the other thing that, like we're like, if you and I were working together, like, I'm, I'm also asking questions you're probably not even prompted to talk about. Like, I'm going to ask about your family. I don't know if you have kids, you're married, what like that. Like, there's gonna be times when the algorithm tells you you can do xyz, and I'm going to tell you the opposite. I'm saying, you know what, bro, you need to go take a day off and go spend some time with your wife or you need to go do this, even though, you know, based off your rest. All these things, you could go hammer this, but the relationship I've built with you, I know you do really well now, and I know, okay, I know that you could go do this, but I think this is going to serve you in life better. You know what I'm saying? Like that type of.

[Justin Andrews]

And just to add, it's a cherry on top of that, like, you compete in world, so you are high level. Okay, the different. You know this, I don't need to tell you this, but I'm gonna say it anyway, just for people listening. The different at that level, when people are competing at that level, the difference isn't who trains, they all train. The difference isn't who takes it seriously. Everybody takes it seriously. Everybody's got decent genetics at that level. The difference is the psychology. The best of the best, their mindset is different. So when you look at the top level, they work with these sports psychologists who get better performance out of them. They didn't even change their training or diet necessarily. It was all the psychology of it all. So just to add to that, you know, I gotta clarify, I go to.

[Kevin]

World Masters, so a little. A little less than World Masters.

[Justin Andrews]

You're still high level level. Dude, I did Jiu Jitsu. I know what that's. That's still high level. Thanks.

[Kevin]

Well, I appreciate it. I think the one thing I'd add for anyone else, considering what I am, is ChatGPT also is a yes man. So you'll say, hey, I feel like I should be doing this or that.

[Justin Andrews]

And it's like validates everything.

[Kevin]

You're absolutely right.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, no, it's just. It's just a validation machine. This is why it's. In some states, they're making it illegal to use for therapy because it's a terrible therapeutic advice.

[Adam Schaefer]

Did you hear the episode? I actually shared a story just recently, recently where I kind of got into it with a, you know, family member of mine because they used it before coming to me and it was like, related to, like, nutrition hormone advice. And the, the advice that it responded, it was just like, well, yeah, it's because you prompted it to kind of give you that answer. And so it gave you that. Like, I could also flip it and tell me, like, tell me all the negative things of not taking testosterone and you'd see a whole host of bad things. So it's like, people don't. I think people haven't figured this part out yet. It sounds like you are like you're playing with it enough to realize, like, oh, yeah, it'll. It'll validate whatever you want it to. So long as you prompt it in that manner of, you know, give me the three things best. So it's like, well, what if that's not best for you right now? What if taking it like, it's not going to. So that's the part, I think that people are gonna have a hard realization when they start to depend on.

[Sal Destefano]

Chat gbt.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Awesome.

[Adam Schaefer]

Very cool.

[Kevin]

Agree.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep.

[Adam Schaefer]

Awesome.

[Kevin]

Well, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you taking the time and I love the show. Keep going.

[Adam Schaefer]

Thanks, bro.

[Kevin]

Take care.

[Justin Andrews]

I got to say this. Imagine having a friend that you ask advice from, and what the friend is most concerned with is if you like them. Yeah.

[Kyle]

You being happy.

[Justin Andrews]

No, you got to like me. So I'm going to say what I think. Whatever it is you want to hear, it is so that you like me. That's a terrible friend. I want a friend that's going to say to me what was going to make me maybe, maybe mad at them. But it's the right thing to say.

[Kyle]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

And you need that.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, that's my point of like, that's right. If I know him, right. Like we I don't have no idea if he was married, kids this or that. And all the markers, sleep, volume, nutrition says he could go crush it in the gym tomorrow. And I know that he hasn't taken a time with his wife to go have dinner with her in the last 30 days. And I know how important his relationship in marriage is and I know that he's communicated to me that he values that. I'm gonna go, hey bro, I know today's a great day to go kill it, but this is what you need to go do. And I'm and even though he doesn't maybe want to hear that and he wants. And it's like that's you're not going to get that from prompting chat gbt. It's going to give you exactly how you prompted the workout that you're asking it.

[Justin Andrews]

Look, you like the show, come find us on Instagram. We'll see you. It's at Mind Pump Media.

[Doug]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The R the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to you, your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.