2740: The 4 Chemicals That Decide Who We Marry with Adam Layne Smith

Summary

Mind Pump Ep. 2740: The 4 Chemicals That Decide Who We Marry

Guest: Adam Lane Smith (Relationship & Attachment Expert)
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Release Date: December 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features relationship coach and attachment science expert Adam Lane Smith, focusing on the chemistry and psychology behind marriage and long-term romantic partnerships. The discussion explores the science of bonding, defining critical roles in marriage, and offers actionable systems for couples to foster team-oriented relationships. With a signature blend of honesty, science, and practical advice, the group unpacks the four key neurochemicals of love and attachment, dives into essential masculine and feminine roles, and addresses modern challenges facing couples today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Big Families: Challenges and Benefits

Timestamp: 03:13 - 05:49

• Adam Lane Smith shares his experience about expecting his sixth child:

  "I have almost as many children as all of you combined in this room." (A, 04:22)

• He highlights both the tough and rewarding aspects:
  • “It’s tiring, it’s exhausting... but it is the most fulfilling thing you’ll ever do.” (A, 04:25)
  • Emphasizes the legacy, long-term joy, and sibling support among children.

2. Life Purpose, Legacy, and ‘Memento Mori’ Philosophy

Timestamp: 05:53 - 06:26

• Adam discusses how contemplating mortality motivates legacy-building:

  "Memento mori. Remember that death is coming. It's supposed to inspire you...I'm building a legacy so that it matters." (A, 05:53)

• Encourages listeners to contribute meaningfully, whether through family or broader impact.

3. The Business Model of Marriage: CEO & COO Roles

Timestamp: 07:14 - 09:08

• Adam Lane Smith presents the “business model of marriage”:

  • Marriage is a partnership akin to a business, with long-term legacy as the mission.
  • Husbands often function as the CEO (vision, final say), while wives are COOs (operations, problem detection).

  "She's a co-founder for the legacy that you're crafting. She’s invested in it just as much as you are." (A, 07:38)

  • This model is not about fetching coffee, but true co-executive partnership.

• Host reaction:

  "If men can apply CEO mentality to their marriage, marriage is rock solid." (A, 08:42)

4. Attachment Chemistry: Four Key Chemicals

Timestamp: 09:11 - 16:54

Adam introduces a neuroscience-based framework (the “chemistry equation”) for attraction and commitment:

• Dopamine: Novelty, pleasure, “spice”—often targeted in early dating or when “spicing things up.”
• Oxytocin: Deep bonding, compulsive affection, key for both genders—especially critical in women.

  "Women are addicted to oxytocin more than men are. They need it for their system way more than we do." (A, 09:49)

• Vasopressin: Loyalty and trust from completing challenges; men have more receptors.
• Serotonin: Lasting contentment, satisfaction.
• Cortisol: Stress—if unregulated, it undermines all bonding and satisfaction.

  "Attraction plus commitment divided by cortisol for each individual." (A, 13:24)

Actionable Takeaway:

• Healthy marriages regularly renew both attraction and commitment, and address shared stress.

5. Navigating Division of Labor and Avoiding Resentment

Timestamp: 06:26 - 07:14, 13:27+

• Adam’s new systems for division of tasks and emotional regulation prevent resentment.
• The CEO should always seek COOs’ (wife’s) input, as collaboration multiplies bonding chemicals and household effectiveness.

"She locks in with you and says, I know you will always hear me, but I trust you to have the final say... If you can lock in together, your bonding hormones get stronger." (A, 14:32)

6. Four Levels of Safety a Man Provides

Timestamp: 18:04 - 24:42

1. Physical Safety: Protection against physical harm (“low bar”).
2. Resource Safety: Assurance of provision, especially in adversity.
3. Emotional Safety:
   • Welcoming and validating her emotions, not suppressing or dismissing them.

     "If you jump in with logical language...you're speaking to the wrong brain." (A, 22:01)

   • Maintaining discipline in his own emotions: “Our trauma is not going to explode in her face.” (A, 22:59)
4. Bonding Safety: Valuing her partnership beyond roles of service or sex—true co-creation.

7. Four Levels of Peace a Woman Provides

Timestamp: 32:45 - 36:36

1. Calm: Regulated nervous system (“magical feminine healing”).
2. Gentleness: In behavior and speech—even when bringing problems.
3. Loyalty: Sexual and emotional, especially during challenges.
4. Executive Partnership: True co-executive, not submissive—offering critical support and partnership.

   "A good wife is not just fetching your coffee...She is a co-executive who calls you out and challenges you." (A, 35:21)

8. The “Multiplication Effect”—Why Marriage is a Third-Party Entity

Timestamp: 36:59 - 39:06

• Couples should “side with the marriage” rather than themselves in conflict.
• The man must “go first”—create safety, take responsibility, and initiate repair.

"You lead. You also have to lead repair." (Sal, recalling a mentor, 39:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Modern Women & Masculinity:

  “Most women are not afraid to give you the final say—they’re afraid they’ll have no say.” (A, 18:47)

• On “Men Sharing Emotions”:

  “More sensitive means I’m aware [emotions] exist, I can note them, speak about them as useful data, and do something about them.” (A, 28:14)

• On Pendulum Swings in Gender Roles:

  “We swung way too hard in the 1950s toward...utterly alone. And then...it swung the opposite direction of no roles...Now people are intentional about building a smart system going forward.” (A, 31:47)

• On Level 4 Communication:

  “We negotiate through these pieces to get our needs met...Persuade sounds like an ugly word, but it’s not...How can we take care of each other with a mutual goal?” (A, 47:52)

• On Friendship Outside Marriage:

  “He has to be a friend to the marriage...He has to respect your marriage with every ounce of his being.” (A, 65:01)

• On Same-Sex Friend Circles:

  “Same-sex groups are vital...Women need other women to talk and bond with...Men need men to call them out and hold them accountable.” (A, 59:11)

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Modern Challenges Addressed

Timestamp: 55:07-62:22

• Digital Communication:

  • Modern couples may face “constant accessibility” through texting, which can increase nervous system stress for both partners.
  • Need candid discussion and expectation-setting around attention, availability, and reassurance.

• Toxic Friendships:

  • The importance of surrounding oneself with growth-focused, marriage-respecting friends, and avoiding those who undermine the relationship.

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Exercises and Strategies

Four Levels of Communication (42:48 - 48:42):

1. Force-Based (ordering compliance)—destroys relationships.
2. Leverage-Based (transactional/favors)—depletes loyalty and legacy.
3. Manipulation (indirect, “chore-play,” guessing needs)—unhealthy for trust.
4. Persuasion/Negotiation (openly state needs, ask “under what conditions”)—builds safety and mutual satisfaction.

• Exercise:
  Practice “under what conditions” questions to foster open, mutual goal setting instead of manipulating for sex, affection, or help.

“Monkey Moment” Process (54:48):

• Acknowledge your “primal” (emotional) self and the “executive” (rational) self in both partners.
• When tension arises, name the emotional response (“monkey moment”) and commit to readdressing issues from a calmer, executive state.

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Memorable Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------|-------------| | The Business Model of Marriage | 07:14-09:08 | | Four Chemicals & the Bonding Equation | 09:11-16:54 | | Four Levels of Safety for Men | 18:04-24:42 | | Four Levels of Peace from Women | 32:45-36:36 | | Four Levels of Communication | 42:48-48:42 | | Modern Challenges & Technology | 55:07-62:22 | | Friendship and Community | 58:47-62:59 |

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Summary

Adam Lane Smith, blending neuroscience, attachment science, and practical insights, makes a powerful case for treating marriage as an intentional lifelong partnership with clear roles akin to a high-performing business. He demystifies the chemistry of attraction, clarifies how resentment and disconnection take root, and offers real frameworks to renew marital connection, including understanding “CEO/COO” roles, the four essential bonding chemicals, and the differing but complementary responsibilities of each spouse. The episode is peppered with pragmatic advice, illustrative examples, and exercises, making it indispensable listening for anyone seeking to deepen their understanding of romantic bonds and build a legacy through partnership.

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For more from Adam Lane Smith:
Find him on Instagram @attachmentadam, or explore his courses at bundle.adamlanesmith.com (code “mind10” for 10% off).

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

You just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we brought on relationship expert Adam Lane Smith. This episode's all about husbands and wives, how you can work together, understand each other for the best relationship ever. This guy's amazing. You can find him on Instagram attachmentadam. He also has courses and you can get 10% off all of them right now. If you go to bundle.adamlanesmith.com the code is mind10. Mind10 gets you 10% off. We know you're gonna love this episode. Now it's brought to you by a sponsor, Legion Supplements. These are great supplements for fat loss, muscle gain and athletic performance. Go to buylegion.com mindpump that's B-Y-L-E-G-I-O-N.com mindpump the code mindpump. You can get some discounts, buy one, get one up to 75% off site wide plus free gift cards on orders of $99 or more. Also 60% off everything right now for Black Friday for us, every Maps workout program, every bundle of programs, everything 60% off go to maps fitnessproducts.com, use the code black Friday for the discount. By the way, every purchase gets you triple entries into our contest. Two people get a week vacation at The Mind Pump Park City house. Fifteen people are going to get personal training. Ten people are going to get the opportunity to hang out here all day long at Mind pump Studios. Once again, maps fitnessproducts.com the code is Black Friday for 60% off and the triple entries.

[B]

You guys, real quick, I just want.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Sale be from November 20th through November 30th. Go check it out@mindpump store.com Adam, welcome.

[C]

Back to the show.

[A]

It is so good to be here with you guys again.

[B]

Always a good time.

[C]

Now you got since the last time we talked, I don't know if we talked to you when you had your last little one.

[A]

Did we last kid? I don't know. How many did I have then?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Where you at now? Five? Six.

[A]

Number six is coming. We just found out.

[C]

Okay, hold on a second. You guys just had the fifth one, didn't you?

[A]

Not that long ago. Yeah. So another one's coming on the way right now. Wow. Six kids. You know, I told someone yesterday that I have six kids and what they said was, thank you for your service. Yeah, I'd never been told that before.

[B]

We were just talking about this and literally this was it this morning. This morning. 6. Sal had brought a picture. So the group I was telling you off air about that we're a part of with this family mentoring thing. There's a family had a picture. Was it six kids or seven kids?

[C]

Six kids or seven kids?

[B]

Yeah, seven kids. Young couple.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And my comment was just how much we've bought into and maybe you could talk to this. The lie of just like, it's not good to have a lot of kids and it's too much and it's a burden. And I'm looking at this couple, I'm like, man, the joy that they're gonna have forever because of the large family. What is it like having that many children? And should couples, should that be something that they look forward to or should.

[B]

They just say no, Aspire to?

[A]

I hear that. Remind me how many kids each one of you guys have.

[B]

I've only got 1, 2, 4.

[A]

I love that.

[C]

Okay, I win.

[A]

I was just gonna say I have almost as many children as all of you combined in this room. So this is good. No, there's two sides to having a lot of kids. One is that it's tough, it's tiring, it's exhausting. You get up and all your energy goes into it. Right? And at the other side of that is it is the most fulfilling thing you'll ever do. And you know that when your kids grow up, they will have people that can stand beside them forever. People who have their back. They don't have to go looking for partners and friends and everything. They got a network to pull things in for them and they have people that they grew up with and they can trust. So it's a long term investment that does bring joy in the short term, but you have to have a long term mentality to be able to make it work. And most people today don't.

[C]

What about just the understanding of what it's going to be like? Because what I often hear people say is like, oh, but then I'm not going to have time to do this or that. And it costs money. And does it make a big difference to go into it with this different understanding of, well, this is what life's going to be like?

[A]

You know, people ask me that and that's a good question, right? And if I asked you, Sal, you got four kids. Like, doesn't that take a lot? Wouldn't you rather buy a yacht? Wouldn't you rather buy another Jet Ski? Yeah, right. You have one wife, like, man, you could have three girlfriends. What are you doing? Why are you making these family choices instead? What do you say?

[C]

Yeah, well, what I say to them is that life is different. Just like it's different when you do anything that's worthwhile. But the. So it's different. Understand that it's gonna be different, but it's better.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so that's what I tell them. I don't know if. What do you communicate something similar or.

[A]

You know, in our family and my faith, we say memento mori. Remember that death is coming. And that's not supposed to terrify you, it's supposed to inspire you. Because what's coming after you? What are you leaving? What's the legacy? What's the impact? I could go buy three more Jet Skis and I could sleep in on Saturdays and not play with my kids and go have fun instead. Right? But I'm building a legacy so that it matters. I'm doing something that matters. My life has value, it has meaning because of the legacy I'm building. Whether that's for people out there who have kids, great. If you don't have kids, who else are you impacting? Who are you helping? You got to spend your time that way somehow.

[C]

How do you communicate? Just the division of labor or how would a couple do this? That resentment doesn't build because sometimes couples go into a relationship and maybe they, they don't communicate this openly. And so it's like, well, who's going to do the dishes? Who's going to do this? Or like, what does that look like for you in your home? And what do you tell couples with this? Because you hear a lot about that, right? That resentment of, well, I thought she was going to do this or I thought he was going to do that.

[A]

You know, I'm excited to talk about this because since I came and talked to you guys last, I built two new systems for my clients and for myself that came from my marriage because when in my marriage my wife's not resentful, I'm not resentful. We are joyful, we are bonded. We've got all the bonding chemicals in place. Everything flows. It's a constant flow state in our family. So I've built a system to help people do that. I can talk about that. You guys want to do that?

[C]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

There's two pieces. One is, is what I call the business model of marriage. And the other is an equation of balancing all the hormones and neurotransmitters in your marriage that you need to have. Which one do you guys want to hear about first?

[C]

Let's go with the first one and.

[B]

Then we'll do the business first.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So your business in your marriage, it is the biggest business of your life. You have to walk into it like you are co founding a life together. Right. If you're going to get married, don't get married unless this is the person you will co found a legacy with. Most men die 10 years before their wife anyway. So she's going to outlive you. She's going to carry your message forward for the next 10 years. Every time somebody says, man, I wish dad was here to tell me what to do, she's going to say, I know him. Here's what he would do. She's going to pass on your legacy to the next 10 next generation. Number one, she's the vehicle for that. Number two, she's a co founder for the legacy that you're crafting. She's invested in it just as much as you are. So you have to treat her like a co founder. Now that's the co founding role. But the actual roles that you play day to day, the man is the CEO and the woman is the COO chief operations officer. Most couples, about 95% fall into this pattern. And naturally the man solves fires, faces threats, deals with decisions, makes the final decision on everything at the end of the day, provides the vision. And the woman comes along. Co executive. She's not fetching his coffee. Co executive. Right. She handles day to day business. She handles operations, logistics. She finds problems and brings them to him. Are the women in your life good about finding problems and bringing them to you? Right. Can you even stop them?

[C]

No.

[A]

Right. You're not supposed to. They are doing their job, but men have to approach it like a CEO who's receiving their co executive who's bringing concerns about the company. Most men treat her like a threat when she's walking into the room and put her down and insult her and say, go, go sit in your corner. Go fetch my coffee. Instead of, come on, let's solve this like a CEO. If men can apply CEO mentality to their marriage, marriage is rock solid.

[C]

Wow, that's great. And then the second part was about neurotransmitters.

[A]

Neurotransmitters, yeah.

[C]

Explain that.

[A]

Absolutely. So how in depth do we want to go on this? What does your audience like? Do they like the chemicals?

[C]

Yeah, let's go.

[A]

I figured they did. Yeah. There are three major pieces of the equation that me and my team so far have built. Right. I've been talking about this for years. We're building a big global institute now. We have to make it palatable for the average person to understand what to do with brain chemistry so they don't have to go through school and go through neuroscience for this. So five good chemicals. One challenging chemical we got to deal with. Okay. There's a chemical of a system for attraction. There's a chemical system for commitment, and then there's a chemical system for breaking apart. You with me so far?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool. To attract and stay connected and attracted and bonded and happy, especially at the beginning of the relationship. But renewing it. Three major chemicals. One is dopamine. Right. Feels good. Novelty. This wears off at about seven months into the relationship, but you can bring it back with newness. Whenever couples fall into a pattern, they usually in a pit, they say, well, just spice it up in the bedroom. That's just dopamine. Dopamine's. Yeah. Novelty. It's fun, but it's meant to be the spice of life. It's not meant to be the heart and soul. Yeah. And with that is a deeper bonding hormone called oxytocin. Oxytocin is the hormone released when we have love and connection and feeling. Right. For men who have more avoidant tendencies, more lone wolf mentality. The oxytocin receptors are closed. You do have to have enough connection with the other person, trust in their character to open the receptors up. Women are addicted to oxytocin more than men are. They need it for their system way more than we do. But we need it too. So oxytocin says, I belong with you, you're my person, I love you, I care about you. It's the adoration, the affection, and it's compulsive. When you feel it, you have to give it. It's what makes you want to kiss your child on the forehead. The upswell of love and care and affection that you give them. That when you have oxytocin, you release a chemical called GABA G A B A that most people are familiar with. It shuts down cortisol, it suppresses cortisol, so it makes you feel calm and relaxed and buffers you against stress in the future. So when you're attracted to someone and you're feeling that mutual full fulfillment and attraction, you feel like a sense of belonging. You feel affection, you feel low stress, high dopamine. It feels incredible being in the room with them. Is that making sense? So far, you guys have felt this, right? In the early stages of a relationship. And when we want to fix our marriage, we go to this first. We try to fix it with this. You go to couples therapist, they hammer on this attraction, attraction, attraction. But it's a lot like going on a first date over and over and over and over with the same person and never moving the conversation along. So over time, it gets old and stale and we need more. It doesn't make you commit. That's just attraction. Okay, the second part of this is the first portion of the equation. Those two pieces together plus the second part, which is commitment, the bonding hormone I think we talked about last time. Vasopressin. When we solve problems together. Men especially have more receptors for this. But the CEO COO model of building a marriage, building a family, you'll get vasopressin every single day, logging those wins together. Vasopressin is, I trust you. It's human loyalty. It is relaxing fully in their presence. Not just at the moment because you have oxytocin, but fully, fully, forever because you are truly bonded to them. It's, I can rest now. Because you are here. It's when you go into a problem, you immediately come together to solve it. And then that allows the release of serotonin, the longer term satisfaction chemical. Your system Stabilizes you feel content. I have a good life. That's serotonin. To be able to say that. Okay, now it's one plus one attraction plus commitment. And you need to be constantly renewing those things. But here's what most people miss. Okay? Underneath that in the equation, divided by cortisol, the stress and cortisol of your daily life, of your family, of your system. If you just have unregulated trauma in your system and unregulated cortisol, it's destroying everything you're trying to build make sense. So cortisol is constantly tapping at the door, scratching, trying to get in. And you have to combat it. Now, most people combat it alone. So they have the attraction, maybe, plus the commitment, if that's there. And it's a plus sign in the middle. Attraction plus commitment divided by cortisol for each individual. If you don't have secure connection with your partner and you can't talk to them about problems. Right. Give me. What's the challenge you and your lady have faced recently?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

You haven't been able to work together.

[B]

That we haven't been able to work.

[A]

Together, or even that you just weren't on the same page. I don't want to get you in trouble, but.

[B]

No, you wouldn't. I mean, remember, she's an executive for this company. And so we get. We get.

[C]

We.

[A]

We're.

[C]

We're.

[B]

But we. We're pretty good at that. But if I were to go something that we maybe don't see eye to eye on at home, I would probably be like, I want to implement things with my son so early. And she's more sensitive about, like, he's so young still. And don't worry, he'll have adversity. He'll. We could be stricter as he gets older. And I'm like, we start now. And so maybe that's an area that we.

[A]

It is. This is. So this is a place where you're a little bit in competition with her. And that's. What that's doing is you have the plus, this, the attraction and the commitment, but it's just a plus sign in the middle. So it's just you guys, each one of you trying to maintain your own bonding chemicals and then dealing with your own stress levels. Okay. We want to bring you guys together. The CEO needs to make the final decision, but with the full input of the coo, Right. She implements systems, detects problems. We need a larger vision for why it's important for him to be doing this. This Early.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not well, it feels right. It's here is the goal we're trying to achieve. Do you have a better method for doing that? And we weave them together. You make the final decision and she respects that. And now instead on the top line of that equation, instead of attraction plus commitment, it's a multiplier stack. Because now here's what happens. We remove all the friction in your relationship. She locks in with you and says, I know you will always hear me, but I trust you to have the final say because I know your leadership is solid. Instead of fighting you on stuff and being worried. Right. If you guys can lock in together, it's not just high production in your relationship now. Your bonding hormones get stronger and you're more resilient everywhere else in your life. The research on this is fascinating. If you have this system, most people are operating at maybe 30% capacity in their overall well being. Their nervous system's 30% regulated. If you can lock in with other people and get an additional 30% CO regulation, that's great. But your own ability to self regulate even goes up by 20% in addition. So now you're operating at 80% capacity in your life. It's almost three times the amount of capacity energy, nervous system work, all the neurotransmitters flowing properly. How would you like to have a triple effectiveness for you and her everywhere in your life?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. That's what you need at home. The CEO COO at home, she needs to lock in as the CEO. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what's the larger vision that means your son should be learning things now? What's the larger vision there?

[B]

That we create good habits at a young age like this and it's becomes behavior for him versus something that we're having to teach him or correct when he becomes a more mature adult.

[A]

I love that. Is she in line with that?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, what part is giving her trouble?

[B]

Because she also is aware of my own issue, insecurities and trauma as a kid around money and things like that. And am I over?

[C]

Am I?

[B]

Oh, like am I overcompensating because of that? Because of my own.

[A]

Got it. Okay, so here's what you need to do is she's afraid at some point you're going to go too far and she won't catch it in time is what she's afraid of. So you need to just build a structured plan. Here's what I'm thinking. Here's what we're going to implement in stages. Does this feel right? Right. You as the CEO, present the option, the best plan. And she is, the COO says, yes, this will work for our system. And you say, great, let's implement it. She needs the long term vision to see what you have in your brain. I know you're going to get it and I know you're going to be locked in. But she's nervous, probably from her own attachment things as a kid. Sure.

[B]

Yeah. Because we're very opposite there and I'm very patient in something like that because I'm also trying to be self reflective, like, okay, could I be overcompensating right now? So I'm hearing her out in that.

[A]

Which is great.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's trust. That's her trusting you. Yeah, I love that.

[B]

But I still feel strong that I'm.

[A]

Right, you know, and that's fine. As a CEO, you have to, you don't want a CEO who's like, oh man, I could be wrong, wrong all the time.

[B]

You still feel a lot of conviction around that I'm right. Maybe. But I think you, what you just nailed that, I think is such good advice is the con. I, what I should have done is brought to her the plan. This is kind of how I see it playing out. I'd like to do this with him once, once a day or once a week. This will teach him these things. That's all I want. I totally understand. He's still going to have this, he's still going to do that. I'm not going to be hammering every day. But if we could do this, do you agree that's it?

[C]

A couple times you said, as a CEO, you have the final say or you're leading this. What's the biggest pushback or most common pushbacks you get from wives in a situation like that? What do you mean he has the final say or what do they say and how do you sexist. How do you encourage? Or what is. What can the husband do to maybe help that happen? Or what would you say to the wife in that situation?

[A]

You know, it is the natural state for most women not to want to have final say on things because it's so stressful. When you go on TikTok and Instagram comment sections, you see women talk about, I'm in my masculine and I hate it. They're burned out, they're exhausted. It destroys their fertility, their nervous systems, their immune system. It gives them chronic migraines, it gives them cancer things and risks for that. There's so much damage that happens to women when they have to make the final decision. So they don't want that. The problem is that most of them have been trained and they're afraid of men failing them, not listening to them at all, and then moving ahead with decisions that are disastrous, that she could have stopped but had no input.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Most women are not afraid to give you the final say. They're afraid they'll have no say.

[C]

So that comes from safety, needing to feel safe and secure.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

How does a husband or man create that to make them feel safe? Because oftentimes when you hear a modern. If I were to say that now, protect and safety guys are thinking, yeah, nobody's gonna hurt my. My wife. And if we're walking down a dark alley, like, I could handle myself. But that's not necessarily what it means. That's just kind of part of it, right?

[A]

That's level one safety. There's four levels of safety. I would protect her in a dark alley is level one. Okay? Physical safety. Right.

[C]

Low bar.

[A]

It's important and it's crucial. Right. If there's a bump in the middle of the night, I don't send my wife with a baseball bat while I hide under the covers. I go. And she knows that physical safety is crucial to begin building that system. But above that is resource safety. Right? And I work with plenty of women where she makes more money than the guy she's dating or something like that. It's not just paying her bills. If something went south, right? If something went south financially for you as a team, would you sit back on the couch and say, all right, honey, go get a job. Go work? No, you're going to go hustle, right? If something goes bad with society, are you going to send her out with a shotgun to the grocery store to get cans of beans for you and the kids? No. You're going resource safety. Build a perimeter of safety, and then go out of the perimeter, gather resources, bring them back in. She's inside the perimeter. Her nervous system is calm and settled. Inside the perimeter, she's safe. This is our basic function as men. But most men stop there with physical and resource because it's all they've ever known. They don't know there are higher levels, and women need higher levels or they. They can't handle it. Their system is not built for it. So higher. Hear it right? Everyone's listening. Level three is emotional safety. And there's two elements of emotional safety that give her the belief that she can trust you. Number one is safety with her emotions when she has them, not to be disrespectful to you. But when she has emotions, challenges, fears, concerns, she can bring them to you respectfully and come in and knock on your door, say, hey, Mr. CEO, there's a problem over here. Can we talk about this? I'm concerned, I'm nervous, I'm worried. You say, yeah, come on in. Have a seat right there. Why don't we talk? Let me listen to you. Tell me what's going on. Okay, tell me a little bit more. You ask questions instead of screaming at her, whipping beer bottles at the door as the CEO hiding under your desk, blaming her for the problems. That's a bad CEO. You walk her in. Hey, talk to me. What's going on? Tell me more. Okay, well, what's the vision there? What's the problem? Talk to me. Okay, well, here's what I think we could do. Does this work for you? Do you think this would be okay? Okay. Do you feel better now? You do? Okay, great. Love that. If you have any more concerns, my door is open. You're welcome to come here. So let's implement this plan. That's the CEO, That's Emotional Safety Love piece one.

[C]

Yeah. Let me pause you there for a second, Adam, because I think sometimes the challenge, I know this has been, for me, where it's the emotions that are the challenge, not necessarily the problem. Because I wouldn't necessarily bring a problem to my friends and cry or be real nervous or whatever. And so talk about providing emotional safety there, because I think a lot of guys have issues with that. It's like, okay, you need to calm down first. Like, that's not providing.

[A]

No.

[C]

So talk about that for a second.

[A]

Yeah. So there's two problems. When she brings you emotional challenges, there's two problems to solve. One is that her right side brain is agitated and her logical left side brain is down, so her emotions are up and her nervous system's dysregulated. She's coming to you first in this state. And if you jump in with logical language.

[C]

Doesn't work.

[A]

It's done. You're speaking to the wrong brain. And you're actually saying, I don't care how you feel, and you spit on her feet. Okay, I care how you feel. What would a CEO do? Hey, come on in.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Ask more about the feelings.

[A]

Ask more about the feelings. How are you doing?

[B]

Why are you feeling this way? Tell me more.

[A]

Tell me more. What can we do to help you feel better? I actually care that you feel this way. I care that you feel this way. I am going to help you not feel this way. I can't promise a specific outcome yet because I need more information. But I will promise you that we will help you not feel this way anymore. We call this validation. Validation is not. You're right, you're right, you're right. It's. I care how you feel and we will help. It's okay that you feel this way. She is safe to have emotions. That's piece number one of emotional safety. Same thing again. What would a CEO do in this circumstance? If this was my co executive coming to me, would I tell them to calm down, shut up, and then come back in three hours when they can speak like a human? No. I would welcome them in. Level two of emotional safety, though, is the man's part.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And this is where a lot of us are failing emotional safety with our emotions. We are disciplined. Our trauma is not going to explode in her face. We're not going to yell at her for daring to bring us a problem. We don't treat it like a personal attack when she's telling us there's a fire out there that we need to go put out. We don't fall apart, crying or angry, upset, pull back, withdraw, goes, go dark on her. Our emotions are settled. We have them. They're useful data, but. But we are disciplined in them so that we can go through them, take a breath, regulate, and solve the problem. She doesn't have to be afraid of our emotions, but she also doesn't have to be afraid of her emotions. This is how you show her she will always be heard. When you build a level three safety, that's where she stops saying, I can't give you the last word and says, please take the last word.

[C]

I see, right. Was there another part to this or.

[A]

Was that level four? Yeah, not bonding safety is level four. Bonding safety means she has value in your life beyond being the girl who fetches you coffee and who goes to bed with you. It's got to be more than that. You have to give her roles to do, tasks to do, things to do in your life. She has to be a partner to you, co creating that legacy together. She can't just be an individual that you happen to share a room with right now. You have to be bonded to her vasopressin wise, working on problems and solving them with her. You can't solve it by yourself and say, just you sit over there and look pretty. I'm gonna solve this for you. And you have to be oxytocin bonded to her, which is why they constantly scan us for romantic poetry. Feelings, thoughts, desires. Right. Is he holding my hand? Does he make eye contact while we're in bed together? Right. Is he showing oxytocin, vasopressin by solving problems together? Oxytocin. Let me ask you guys, does the women in your life ever come and say, how can I help you? How can I help? Right. Do you guys love that question or dread that question?

[C]

I love that question.

[A]

You love that question. What do you love about it? Tell me. Tell me.

[B]

Guys, there's. There's always a ton on my plate. And so having a partner, that's. I mean, this is one of the things that I love about my wife, is that she has been able to see the things that I'm not great at and be able to pick up that slack so I can focus on the things that I'm great at. And so I love when she comes to me proactively and goes, hey, I know you got a lot going on this week. What can I take from you? What can I do? And it's like, oh, man. If you could help me with this or help me with that, so I could find. Focus on these things right now, and then I can focus on what I do.

[A]

Good.

[B]

And when we work like that together, it's incredible.

[A]

I love that.

[C]

No, that's. I mean, I. I would feel. That's amazing when she brings that to me, because it makes me feel like I can do what I need to do, and if anything, it makes me want to give back even more.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's just anticipating it ahead of time. It just takes the level of stress. Wherever you're at with that, it just. It really carves it way down.

[A]

And then you can.

[B]

You can be at ease and you can have real conversations. And two actually puts it back on you to think ahead of things that, you know, she may need help with.

[A]

That you should look for as well. Now, let me ask you guys this. How often do you actually tell her something she can help you with?

[C]

Yeah, that's a tough one.

[B]

Yeah, that's. I do that asking for help. I mean, ask these guys. My wife gets better at it, for sure.

[A]

Yeah, that's probably difficult.

[C]

I'm not good at it. For me. Not at all.

[A]

So most of the time, guys go like this. They go and they think all the tasks on my plate, and then they look at her and say, well, nothing you can do. Nothing to help me. Right.

[C]

That's not great, is it?

[A]

No, it is.

[B]

You need to give something.

[A]

It's the saddest Most disappointing moment because you're telling her, I don't want a vasopressin bond with you. I don't trust you. I'm not interested in you helping me. You're going to make my life harder. You're not a person I can trust. Just go sit over there in the corner and get out of my way. We're trying as men to be considerate of her and not take from her. And we also don't know what she can do. But again, go back to the CEO mentality. You got an employee who's desperate to work with you, desperate to co executive, who wants to solve problems, who wants to grow the company. She's asking you, how do I support you in growing our company? And you tell your co executive, no, thank you. Go back to your office, move some papers around. Yeah, that's the problem, is she wants to vase a press and bond with you. She's desperate. She's actually doing level four of peace that a wife is supposed to give you. There's four levels a woman owes to a man. If he's providing the four levels of safety, you're rejecting level four bonding, which is why she doesn't feel she can relax and let you take control before.

[C]

You get to the four levels. Because I'd love to hear what the wives would do. But when you talk about being disciplined with your feelings and emotions, oftentimes, especially today, you hear a lot of like, well, you know, men need to be more sensitive. They need to more show emotions. And. And there's this confusion around it because guys know instinctively. Yeah, if I break down and cry, she may be like, I want to see you have emotions. But then she gets the ick, you know, like, I don't actually don't want to see that. So where's the balance there with that?

[A]

The problem is that women use very emotional language and it's very inexact and it hits perfectly home on what needs to happen. But it's completely the wrong measurement for men. When they say men need to be more sensitive and have emotions, here's what they mean. If you got in a car with your best friend and you looked at the dashboard and it's covered in duct tape to block out all the gauges, right? All the meters and gauges are blacked out and you go, buddy, what are you doing? He goes, you know, after the last engine fire I had, the lights were flashing at me so bright that it just blocked me out, distracting me. So I blocked them all out. How fast are you jumping out of that? Yeah, I'm out. Right? Your emotions and your feelings. It's your nervous system giving you data. If you're blocking it out and pretending it's not there and you're going dark and refusing to let anyone else see what your nervous system's doing, that's you getting in that car. That's her freaked out, nervous about the next engine fire that's going to explode and kill everybody. So she doesn't trust you because she doesn't know if you're managing your emotions or not. In fact, if you're blocking out, you're not. Now, they want you to be more sensitive, but that doesn't mean sobbing on the floor. More sensitive means I'm aware that they exist. I'm able to note them, I'm able to speak about them out loud to other people as useful data, and then I'm allowed to do something about them. So I'm having a challenge. Here's how I feel about it, and here's what I'm going to do to solve it. That's a great format for sharing your emotions as a man. Practical, solution, focused. That builds her trust in you because you can have the feeling that note it, be disciplined, go through it and still solve a problem. That's where they grow in respect for you as you share your emotions. But their language is inexact.

[C]

Got it. Got it. We just speak differently, don't we?

[A]

We very much do. The male brain observes in the back and solves problems. The female brain observes in the back and then analyzes it and talks to their friends about it. And that's. That's the challenge. They have emotional experiences. We have measurable experiences, which makes us.

[B]

A hell of a team when we.

[C]

Figure if we can pair together, that's the thing.

[A]

A great see CEO and a great coo. We are perfectly gifted in these roles. And I want to say this. Women are versatile. They can do the man's role. They can. They can step in. It burns them out and destroys them, but they can. But they shouldn't have to, because it's the ultimate waste. They are the perfect coo, and when we work together, it's a multiplier stack. Instead of just each of us trying to do it on our own, the benefits are unreal for us and for the next five generations. So allowing them into that role is not hemming them in. We're not going back to the 1950s. We're going to the ultimate future for humanity where we are optimizing our system for us. So we're thriving and their system for them, so they're thriving.

[C]

Do you think the last few decades of this message that we're the same, that there really are no differences, have we had enough time of that experiment where now your message isn't being met with, that's sexist. But rather, okay, maybe this is why.

[A]

Things are going, hey, you know, after Covid, a lot of women got the taste of being the CEO in their own life, completely in a terrifying world where we are all afraid, we all feel alone and isolated. And I noticed a lot of women after Covid stopped with the whole, you're sexist, you're sexist, and instead switch to who's coming to take care of my life, who's going to be the CEO so I don't have to, not because they don't want to work. How can I work with someone who is the head of the company so I can do what I do best? How do I stop burning my nervous system at both ends, trying to survive? How do I stop raising kids on my own and then watching those kids destroy their own lives? How do I become the woman I want to be? And the answer is men. Men. After all these decades of who needs men? Suddenly it's, we need men like never before. It's never been clearer how much we need men. But mature, disciplined CEOs in the home who treat their family with respect, loyalty and commitment.

[C]

That's awesome.

[A]

That's what we need.

[B]

Do you feel the pendulum swinging? Do you think we're swinging?

[A]

I think the pendulum is finally just going where it's supposed to be. I don't think we're going to. We swung after the World War I, World War II, Great Depression, blah, blah, blah. We swung way too hard in the 1950s toward, like, every tiny family is its own unit, and that's it. You're alone in this world. Mother, father, children. It's not the right system. They were utterly alone. And then with these horribly defined broken roles. 1950s is not the model we're going for. And then in opposition to that, it swung the opposite direction of no roles. Everything's terrible, don't tell me what to do. And it's cracked open and everyone's on fire. I think the pendulum's broken. And I think people are now being intentional about building a smart system going forward. That's why I don't teach attachment theory anymore. I teach attachment science. This is just a science of how humans bond. And we've learned more through the failed experiments over the last few decades than we've ever learned before. We know what works now. Now we just have to be intentional about the systems we build.

[C]

That's great. What are the four components of peace that you were mentioned for a wife?

[A]

I knew you'd want to hear that. So when a man is in a relationship, he owes the woman the four levels of safety. If he's not providing them, he is failing. So he must provide four levels of safety. She must provide four levels of peace in return, or she is failing now, both of them. That means they're going to have to do their trauma work and manage their nervous systems to be able to do this. Or they're failing, but this is the correct system. She returns peace to him. He builds a perimeter. He goes outside, gathers resources, brings them back in. Okay. Inside the perimeter is also peaceful and restful, and she's safe there. And the perimeter is never going to pop and go away because he's properly bonded to her. Now. Inside the perimeter is her domain. This is the queen level right here. She is the queen in this area. Okay. So what I'm about to describe is not a submissive, quiet wife who just sits there and looks pretty. It's a queen reigning over her kingdom. Right. With her king. Make sense? Got me. Okay. I'm saying that for all the ladies at home, anyone who gets set off by this level one of peace is calm. She has a calm, regulated presence and nervous system so that when he comes home, you guys ever come home and you know your wife's in a bad mood and your chest gets, like, tight, and you're like, man, it's what? Right? You've been fighting all day, and now it's one more problem to solve for three hours before you're allowed to go to bed. Right? She's an obstacle between you and going to sleep at this point.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's not proper. She needs to be a calm, regulated place when you step back in. The male nervous system is not really built to regulate itself. And to enter what we call the parasympathetic rest and digest state where we heal. We aren't really able to enter a healing state on our own. We actually need the feminine form to click in with us symbiotically and merge our nervous systems and then immerse us into that. Otherwise, we have to spend 20 years learning martial arts to try to reach a stage where we can sort of heal a little bit. Or you spend five minutes with your peaceful wife. Right? That's it. So the magical feminine healing that every culture on the planet always Talks about is her integrating with you. Come home, calm nervous system, calm aura, calm presence. You step into her presence, it's just calm. Everything is steady. Okay? She's gonna have to do a lot of work to get there, but that's okay. Calm level two is gentle. She has to be gentle in her behavior, gentle in her speech when she brings a problem, right? She can't get in your face. She asks questions. She is respectful. She's clarifying. She's curious, she's understanding. But she's gentle. Not biting, vicious, angry. Level three is loyalty. Yes, Sexual loyalty. Let's put that aside. Absolutely right. Required. We know that. But loyalty around challenges, loyalty around tasks. When there's a problem, she doesn't get in your face and say, this is you. You got to solve this. Why haven't you solved this already? She clicks in with you and says, okay, what's our plan? What are we going to do about this? What are we going to do about this? Together, instantly, she locks in with you. And that leads to level four, executive partnership. A good wife is not just fetching your coffee and being pretty. A good. A good wife is a co executive, together with you, who calls you out and challenges you and says, I'm concerned that you may not have covered this piece yet, and if you go in with no plan, it could go ugly for you and our kid. And so I'm going to step in here and say, I'm warning you, that's a co executive. Right? But she has to be calm, gentle, and loyal as she's doing it, right? Co executive, executive partnership. That's what she's trying to offer. When she says, how can I help you? She's offering you level four. Say yes. Most men don't know what to say yes to or what to give her yet one thing you can say is, could you create a list of five to 10 things you could do for me that I'm not aware of yet?

[C]

When you bring this to couples or when you're talking to couples about this, I got to imagine that one or both of them is like, well, they're not doing their side. If they did their side, I'll do my my side. In a situation like this, is one of them more of the initiator and one of them more of the responder? Or is it just you're responsible for your own, and even if the other person isn't doing theirs, do yours?

[A]

Yes, I do. I fix this in two ways with the couples who work with me. One is when they come in, I Say, look, every coach, every therapist, everyone is going to pick a side. And so I'm not going to tell you I won't pick a side. I'm going to tell you to pick me. Tell me which side to pick. Do both of you want to make this marriage work? I need a verbal confirmation. They both say, yes. I say, cool. I am now on the side of the marriage and whichever one of you is screwing up, I am now going to go against you to get your marriage fixed. And I do this for them because they need to understand their marriage is a third party entity that they are both responsible for taking care of. Now when they have disagreements, they can take the side of the marriage instead of taking their own side and they can come together and say what's good for the marriage. So I train them into that through the coaching process. Number one, understand that your marriage is a third party entity and that you can take the marriage's side instead of your own. That's how you both work together. You get the multiplication effect right, Number one. Number two, it's even easier to solve this problem because the man has to go first. There is no way for the woman to enter her parasympathetic rest and digest how he leads. She cannot. She is blocked from entering the feminine state most of the way until he creates safety where she can then enter that. Otherwise she has to be the CEO creating her own safety.

[C]

And that doesn't work. So you know what's cool about this is that what's interesting about this is when a man hears this. This just goes to our nature. When a man hears, you got to go first, you have to lead. Most men aren't like, well, that sucks. I got to. Most men are like, okay, okay. I think that's what I need to do, or I want to do that. Which kind of speaks to. I had a conversation with a friend of mine, he's a pastor, and we had this, this whole conversation. He's really just a Christian coach and he's leading me through my faith. But I had this one day, it was real tough, and my wife and I were arguing and I had this complaint. I was like, you know, she never apologize. I always have to apologize first. She's never. And he said, he said to me, sally, he goes, you lead. You also have to lead repair. And it was like a light bulb. Like, oh, of course. If I want this repaired, I have to lead that as well. And I felt a sense of purpose and responsibility. Not like it's not fair, but rather, this is my Responsibility, my purpose.

[A]

Yeah. When you started leading your wife in that, leading her in the repair, you apologizing? Yes. But also letting her know that you needed repair from her. How did she respond to that?

[C]

Well, great. It works great. And I don't feel like it's not fair because I feel responsible, like, okay, well, I need to lead.

[A]

This is the difference between and this is interesting. Treating our partner like an object. And the part of our brain that lights up for tool use lights up. I have to manipulate you. We call this level three communication. I have to manipulate you even lovingly, benignly. I have to manipulate you like an object to get the outcome I'm looking for. Because I can't tell you the outcome I want and I don't know how to work with you to get it done because I didn't learn in childhood how to cooperate. So I'm going to move you around and give you feelings and things and experiences until you give me what I want. Instead of being able to come straight to the person. Do level four, what we call negotiation. I will negotiate with you and let you know what I need. I'll let you know my capacity, I'll ask your capacity and then I'll work with you to solve the problem openly, transparently. A different part of your brain lights up for relating to human beings and that creates more empathy, which creates vasopressin and oxytocin. Back to that loop. How do we create those bonding hormones? Solving problems together instead of guessing and manipulating.

[B]

I'd love to hear an example of an exercise or a strategy that you would give a couple that let's say is stuck at one of these levels. I'm imagining that there's a common place. You said base level one. I'm sure like a lot of people get to one or two and that's probably around when they start getting stuck is levels three and four. So wherever the most common is that you're dealing with men or women, what are, what are, what is that? First of all, what level they normally get stuck at. And re. Explain, explain that again. And then what are some exercises or strategies? You may send them off. Go try this next time or do this.

[A]

You know, I credit my business partner Andre with doing some of this work because he's been phenomenal in helping me understand exactly codifying how people communicate. Right. We have four levels of communication and it's not what you grow through, it's what you fall to, which is bad. Okay. Level one is the lowest level of communication. It's force based communication. You will comply. You will do this. We learn it from our parents when they say, because I'm your dad, that's why you will do this. Right. It's ordering and forcing because you don't have to treat that person like a human being. You're actually denying them the dignity of being a human being. And you're forcing them to comply with your will. And this diminishes and destroys the relationship and shreds the trust. And anyone who communicates at this level, they're choosing to destroy the relationship with the person they're communicating to. But some people go down to this level because it's all they learned. Or they get nervous, scared, upset, they're angry, Shreds the relationship. Level two is better, arguably. And it's where a lot of avoidant men tend to go. It's leverage based thinking. Hey, if you want me to do this for you, you'd better do this for me. Hey, you know what? I did these things for you. You owe me this. It'd be a shame if you didn't do this for me because I'd have to stop this thing over here that you're enjoying. It's like being in a relationship with the Mafia. Right. You owe favors and you had damn well better do those favors or the relationship will end. This, this still continuously cuts the relationship value in half. It doesn't destroy it on the spot, but it diminishes it over time. Because everything's a transaction, everything is leverage based. A lot of avoidant people fall to this because it's all they know and they think it's benevolent because they're not using force. Okay.

[B]

So if they follow that, and that's common, that's common. What's an exercise to get them out of that place? So if a lot of avoidant men fall to this place.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And because I, I you right now saying that I can think of somebody or people that are like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's something that you would tell that man as an exercise to do in his marriage to help him move beyond that level?

[A]

I ask him if he cares about loyalty. Do you want people to actually be biochemically loyal to you? People to actually have your back so that when you're not watching, they're working even harder because they care. They genuinely care about you. Does loyalty matter to you? Does legacy matter to you? Because what you're doing is eroding the possibility of legacy and loyalty. By using this communication, you're operating on a level that most people find really uncomfortable and they will leave you. Even if they're good people, they'll leave you because this is deeply unfulfilling. Do you really want to destroy your legacy this way? That usually hits them pretty hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then we go up to level three, manipulation. Now, this does not have to be ugly. It could be. It doesn't have to be, you know, sneaking around, being unkind to people and exploiting them. It could be benevolent. It's the guy who wants to have more sex with his wife. So he does all the chores in the house and then tells her three times how many chores he did that day. Right. Called chore play. It's the wife who wants her husband.

[B]

To bring this up again.

[A]

Right, right, right. It's. It's the wife who wants her husband to do something, so she's being extra nice and extra sweet for him, hoping he guesses what she wants, but no hints are dropped whatsoever. Right. If he knows, if he loves me, he'll do. He'll figure it out. This is manipulation. It's lighting up the part of your brain for using a tool, moving an object. It's I will make you guess what I want, and I will guess how to get there. And a lot of couples fall into this pathway. And yes, you can build a relationship over time, but remember that equation, cortisol is always scratching at the door, waiting to shred the relationship you have. So if you're. If you're manipulating and they see it and feel it, it feels bad. And the misunderstandings that pile up are what ultimately destroy the relationship. Unmet needs and misunderstandings. So level three doesn't really work either. We have to go to level four.

[B]

So if, okay, so let's. This, this man is doing that, and he's maybe in the marriage. That's what. That's all he's got his wife to respond in order for him to get sex. He's like, I, I, you know, the only way I get it is I got to make sure I mow that lawn first thing, and I got to make sure I take the trash out right away. And. And I'm going to do all those things. And then, of course, I'm expecting that, because that's the only way I get it. How did I get into that place? And it. What do I need from my wife and what do I need to do to get out of that. That trap? Because I know that. I know that there's. There's men that are in the trap that, where they're trying to do those things in order to get that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I get you're where they're at, level wise, but how do they get out of that?

[A]

Yeah. So in his head, he's playing a game of soccer and she's the other team, and sex is scoring a goal. So he has to be faster and smarter and stronger than her and get around her and get her through her defenses and score a goal on her to convince her to have sex with him. In his mind, they are competing. We need to stop the game, stop everything, and cooperate. Okay. They get there because he never learned that he's able to just sit down with his wife and say, sweetheart, I love you with all of my heart, and I want you to feel good, and I want to feel good. And for our marriage to continue for the next 50 years and for us to win together, I have these sexual needs that must get covered. And I'm not asking you to just take one for the team. I want you to enjoy it, too, and I want to share this with you. So there's this magical phrase I teach my clients. Under what conditions? Under what conditions would you love to have sex with me three times a week? How can we get there? And this is not convincing her to fake it. Right. Or anything like that. What you're doing, what you're going to do is say, what are your needs that are matched to this? And most wives will say, I would love to have a marriage where we have sex three times a week. I enjoy it, too. But for me to get to that level, I have to feel emotionally close to you. I got to feel safe. I have to know what you're thinking. I have to feel like we are really connected. She.

[B]

She's not going to say, mow the lawn, take the trash.

[A]

No. In fact, if he's doing that over time, that's what makes it less sexual. Because she sees him playing games, and all the times he's disappointed and huffy and passive aggressive. She knows it's because she didn't deliver sexually. But he also didn't make her feel connected or safe. So she gets more and more resistant. Sex is going to dwindle up the more he plays manipulative games. But when he just says, babe, what do you need from me? This is my need. What's your capacity? And she says, I would love that. I would love to do that. Here's my capacity and here's my needs. Can we trade? And he goes, babe, absolutely. What does being emotionally closer look like? What does safety look like? They listen to this podcast right here. Guys, are you Listening. Guys, watch this with her and then say, do you want. Do you need these four levels? As a CEO, can you fill out this survey and tell me where in the four levels I'm hitting and where am I missing? How can I be of more service to you as your man, giving you all four levels? And when you do, her oxytocin goes through the roof and her sex drive goes into rabbit mode. And she will not give you a night off. Three nights a week is going to be the least of your concerns. Okay, you just sold it. How would you like to have three times more sex and your wife initiate it and enjoy it more, Talk to her more and be the CEO in the home, but don't manipulate her. Sit her down and have a loving conversation.

[C]

What was the fourth level of communication?

[A]

Fourth level is what we call persuasion. We negotiate through these pieces to get our needs met. And we are going to persuade. Persuade sounds like an ugly word, but it's not. It's not used car sales tactics, right? It's, here's what I need. Here's my capacity. What's your capacity? What's your need? How can we take care of each other with a mutual goal, right? Did you hear what I said at the beginning, guys? For our marriage to continue for the next 50 years and thrive and everything, for us to win together and have a great legacy, sexual needs need to get met. But I'm not asking you to take one for the team, right? We weave back to the larger goal we're both doing. I said use the marriage, the third party marriage. For the marriage to thrive. This needs to get met. But what do you need? How can we do this? You don't even ask her. Is that okay? How can we get here? What do you need from me? That's how we do this.

[C]

What are some, like, constructive ways to handle conflict between a husband and wife? What are, like, what are some, maybe, I don't know, rules or boundaries or ways to, like, we're going to have this conflict and maybe it's a repeated conflict. What would it look like if it was healthy?

[A]

Conflict is a triangle. Conflict is a triangle. I love the word conflict because it's a good thing. We only build trust in conflict. We never build trust outside of conflict. But conflict is a series of questions. And based on the answers to those questions, or if we refuse to answer them and assume we either go from conflict to cooperation or conflict to combat, we're either going to fight because we don't think our goals align. And I'm going To get my goals met, and you're not taking them away from me. Or we cooperate and say our goals are similar enough, let's just solve it together. But you can only do it by having open, naked, vulnerable conversation about it and laying your cards on the table. If you try to do chores to make her happy, try to knuckle under to make her happy, you get really loud and angry so she doesn't dare take your goals away from you if you don't even know what her goals are. If you don't tell her what your goals are, it's impossible to cooperate.

[B]

I would have to. I think a lot of marriages apply or try to apply some of this stuff with the right intent, But I think it's the approach to where they. Where they go wrong. Like, I think back to conversation, even though what you just gave me, like, I was trying to think of a time, what was the last thing that Katrina and I didn't see kind of eye to eye? And that was, like, the best scenario I could come up with. And you solved it right away. I was just like, God, why didn't I think to, like.

[A]

Do you know why?

[C]

No.

[A]

Do you know why? Because you and your wife, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's four of you in that marriage. There is you, the logical executive selves on your left side brains. Where you're sitting here in a room with Adam Lane Smith, getting dating and marriage advice and saying, okay, that makes sense, Adam, I will go home and do this. That. Why didn't I think of that? I already knew that. I do that in business. Logical left brain, executive self. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Primal self. Emotional, primal self on the right side brain. It is more like a drunk, scared monkey with a gun.

[B]

I know what he looks like.

[A]

You know what he looks like. And the more I know it's right.

[B]

Just do this right.

[A]

And the more that we don't attend to him and manage him, the stronger he gets. But she has a monkey as well. Now. You look at each other and you look past each other and say, well, I don't trust your monkey. And she doesn't trust your monkey. She trusts you. Executive, but not your primal self. Executive, yes. Primal, no. Here's what's magic. Okay? Everything we've talked about so far leads to this point. In a successful marriage, you must both acknowledge the four of you that are involved. We are executive selves that will work together to manage our primal selves by speaking out loud about the fears our primal selves hold. This is vulnerability. Babe, can I talk to you about something? I trust you. I do. And at the same time, that primal self yours, that monkey part. Right. I'm afraid that he will push too hard with our son. Because in your childhood, A, B and C. Yeah. How can we together manage him? Because again clarifying. I trust you. How can you and I make sure we manage him?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

No, it makes complete sense. I could literally see that conversation, if unfolded that way, would have went so much smoother. It worked out and it was okay, but it would have been so smooth had it been approached with. With that manner. And that's what I mean is that I think that. And I think I even went into that conversation with a. With it with a good intent and calm and some things. But I didn't come with a plan. I didn't think of it as a. Like I hears, I recognize my own insecurities and issues. I know you have yours. And then I know you have. Like if, if I think we would have framed it like that. I think we would came to a conclusion and a plan together so much faster.

[A]

But even the framework of externalizing those parts of yourself. If she can say I trust you, but there's a piece that is giving me trouble. Can we manage him? It's you unifying together instead of her coming at you saying, I don't trust you. How can you get yourself under control?

[B]

She does a good. I mean, she's such a great community communicator. She did that without. Not as. As beautifully said as that. But I mean that's what made me calm down about it was just like, I understand. I do know that I have, that I knew I. I have my own insecurities. And I know that I'm probably my primal self using your words is overcompensating. And like we needed.

[A]

We need to do this now.

[B]

We need to do all these things. And so I hear her out like, hey, like, you're right. Like, he is. He's only six.

[A]

We can.

[B]

We have time. You know what I'm saying? Like, he doesn't even understand that stuff quite, quite yet. And so I get, you know, so. But yeah, I mean, I think that that was what she did really well was she didn't just say no to me or speak. Just my problem. Just hey, you know, like, I know where you're coming from. He's not going to be. He's not going to grow up in the same house as you like you did. He's not going to have those issues. Trust me. You're already great with them. She reminded me of those things, which made me go, okay, calm down. But I still want. I still want the things to get done. So the fact that I. And where I. So I already see where I messed up is I didn't. I didn't lay out the plan. If I would have laid out a plan and then asked her, well, what if we did this, you know, and we started doing this once a week? Would that be. Would that be something you think is okay and I'm not overreaching or I'm not coming from a place of insecurity? I bet she would have been like, yeah, I could get behind that. I could do that.

[A]

And that was her primal self sparking off, shrieking and yelling and yanking on her, saying, he's going to get us killed. But that was also her executive self saying, something missing here. I don't have the details yet. Right. She's like, well, you monkey. You make a good point. And then talks to you. If you guys can just acknowledge that there's four of us here, you can actually just use that language.

[B]

I know we probably could have worked it out together. And in that moment, even not having a plan, we probably could have came up with a plan if we acknowledged.

[A]

Those four characters perfectly. Hey, you know what? My primal self over here has this fear. Can I speak? Can I tell you what it is so we can put it to bed and make her be quiet?

[B]

I mean, I love this conversation just for that, because I know that I'll have her listen to this as she does anytime you come on. And for. For sure the next time we have something like that, I think we'll already be able to, like. Okay, hold on. You know? Yeah. Where are we? What. What are we speaking from right now?

[A]

He's aligned.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

My wife and I, we call it a monkey moment. You know, hey, babe, I'm so sorry. I had a monkey moment. That was me letting him out of his cage. That was inappropriate. Here's what I should have said to take care of the problem. Can we have the conversation a second time? That's enough. That's an apology, right? That's getting back on track. Your full authority, you're leaning forward, you apologize and then get back on track.

[C]

Are there modern issues or challenges now that are different from, like, you talk to couples all the time, and it's very different just from how it was 10 or 20 years ago. Are there issues now that keep coming up that maybe didn't exist in the past? Things that you have to do, Maybe social media, Internet, or whatever.

[A]

Do you guys ever get where your wife texts you throughout the entire day and she wants you to kind of respond like quickly at your lunch hour and like you get all kinds of stuff? No. You've never had that happen? Never. Never once?

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah, I will.

[A]

In the old days, us four here, we would have gone out for three, four, five, six days at a time and not seen our wife at all. Then when we come home, we can focus while we're out hunting, working, doing, etc, all that stuff out there and she can then share that with us when we come home. Right now we have these little phones in our pockets where she at any single moment when she feels an upswell of love or an upswell of nervousness or paranoia, she needs reassurance. She wants to give you love. She wants to send you a funny picture or a risque picture. However she's feeling, she can get your attention and bid for your attention at any moment. And you as a man feel urgency and press pressure. Like, what does she want from me? If I don't text back, what's going to happen? And then it's just all day long. And if you don't text back, she might be like, well, why isn't he texting me? What's going on? Those primal selves start to activate and we feel like we can't say anything. If I mention it, she'll know that I saw them and didn't respond. If I mention it, he'll know that I need attention, that I'm not feeling very good. So we just bid for attention and then hide and withdraw. If we can just talk, we can solve all the modern problems that are coming up. But we must be talking intentionally together about them. Hey, babe, I love that you send me stuff all day. How often am I needing to respond to that? If you had something urgent or if you really needed some love and care, would you let me know? And then I could slot that into my day. Otherwise can I respond to them at the end of the day? Does that work for you? Yeah, babe, not a problem. If I ever have a moment where I really need something, I will let you know. If I'm having a low day and I just need some love, I will let you know. And you can work it in on your lunch hour. But I'll let you know if I need to.

[B]

That.

[A]

Will you do that for me if I do? Yes. I promise you on my lunch hour, I will work in time to make sure I take care of you. If you have a rough day. Not a Problem?

[B]

Well, it goes back to your CEO and CEO mentality also. This is why I don't think my wife does is I think we run this operation really well and I trust her to go handle a lot of stuff and she doesn't need to check in with me every time a challenge I get downloaded at the day. Oh man, today Max did this and we had that and oh well, this partnership did that. So I get the download at the end of the day, but she doesn't text me throughout the day. And so, but I think we have that understanding of like you're so unusual. It's like for me it's, it's an emergency at that point.

[A]

Yeah. So then I am, I will respond because I'm like, she never does this. That's good. That's good. Okay, I'm glad. Big piece of this is this. You guys are giving the women in your lives vasopressin and that calms her nervous system completely because she says I have a role in your life. I know that we're loyal. I know you're loyal to me. I don't have to run after you and seek reassurance. We're safe and settled. High vasopressin, high serotonin. That's that commitment piece of the equation, right? If a lot of men just focus on the oxytocin, I give her dopamine or I give her oxytocin. It's short lived, it cycles, it goes in and out of the system. So she goes up and then crashes up and crashes up and crashes. He doesn't give her the deeper commitment level piece. He'll allow her to be a co executive in his life. She's the assistant who fetches his coffee and she could get fired at any moment. That's the problem. We have to treat our wives with the respect of a co founder and a co executive and we have to let her feed us and nurture us in that way.

[C]

How important or is it important that men have a group of men that they can talk to and trust and maybe for women as well. I've read data and studies on this with men where they tend to stay isolated. They don't really have a group of friends. Friends. And recently I've started this men's group and all the guys keep commenting on like how helpful it is and I realizing it's because we don't do anything like that. It's like we go to work and.

[A]

We go home and I. Dave Asprey asked me that question yesterday. I was just on his show. And I told him, on a scale of 1 to 10, it's a 12. Right? Same sex groups are vital. Women don't even know how they feel until they process it out loud with a trusted confidant. And they need to have other other women to do that with because other women release bonding chemicals in return. So a woman goes to another woman. High emotion, low logic. The other woman is high logic, low emotion. They integrate. They talk. They both release bonding hormones. They feel safe and connected. She deflates her emotions, grows logic. She solves her own problem, but she feels connected. This is why your wife gives you a download. At the end of the day, they actually need other women to do that with and process with. Good to do it with you too. Yeah, right. But men don't do that instinctively. Men solve problems. We hear a problem and we say, wait, you don't have to tell me anymore. Stop sharing. I've solved your problem. Here it is, record time. 30 seconds. Boom, done. All right, I'm gonna go have a beer. And what you've done is you've told her, I'm not interested in hearing about you. I don't care how you feel. I don't care how your day was. I don't care how you feel and how you're processing. Get out of my face. Here's a solution. Go away. And he feels like he's done something good for her. Women need women to talk and share and nurture with. Right. And with their husband, too. But they need women for this processing and this mutual care and support. Men need other men to call them out and hold them accountable. I know you guys do this for each other, right? But you also do this for your clients. Hey, you know what? I need you to take a step forward. I need you to grow. This is your time. You got to get up. You said it earlier, right? When you tell a man, you have to go first, but it's because you are the leader. If you can't do it, you can't be the leader. So which do you want? Do you want to go second or do you want to be the leader?

[C]

Right.

[A]

It's men calling each other out like that. We need other men to do that. The Bible says, as steel sharpens steel, so one man sharpens another. You don't look to women to sharpen you. You look to men to help you. And your wife, when she has a problem with you, should say, who are you going to talk to about this? Who is going to work on this with you? Who are you going to get mentorship from your wife. Shouldn't be your mother. Or be telling you how to fix.

[B]

It now, how important. This is an area. I've talked to these guys before about how blessed I feel that my wife gets to speak to her mother every single day. And her mother is like a therapist and so she's like incredible. So it's like a lot of times she will talk to her middle of the day and when I get home, not only do I get downloaded, I get downloaded on what. Maybe something she would have been upset at me about, but her mom has talked her, talked her out of that or explained my perspective without me being involved. It's the most magical thing I could ever ask for. But I've also been in other relationships before my wife where that woman has toxic friends.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That are almost cancerous to the relationship because they're like f him. I can't believe. So how important though is so. Because it's, it's obvious it's important to have community and relationships. But also I could. The right, the right relationships probably matter too though, right?

[A]

100. Okay, first of all, do you buy your mother in law gifts on anniversary. On your anniversary as a thank you for another year?

[B]

I take great care of my mother in law. I love her. And yes.

[C]

Perfect.

[B]

She's amazing.

[A]

That's beautiful. I love that you have that. Most men don't. It is absolutely vital that men and women have high quality, good moral character friends who are actually rooting for your relationships. If they are rooting for you only as an individual and pushing their primal self on you. Yeah, go girl. Go do it. No, absolutely not. Get them out of this. That is a toxic culture that needs to be eliminated immediately for the good of the relationship. That woman needs to destroy those relationships. Men too. We can't have guys like that in our lives. Either we have to have relationships that serve our long term goals and the legacy we are crafting or we are choosing to destroy it. It's one of the other.

[B]

I think that's so. I want, I just wanted to point that out because I mean I, I had. This didn't happen to me until probably my 30s. Also what I really appreciate about this group of men in here, I mean we've created a brotherhood the last decade together. And what I love about all them is they're all growth minded. They all care about the success of my marriage at all. So they'll always call me on my, you know. Dude, come on. Are you kidding me? She's amazing. Like versus I've had other friends that are the opposite, that are, you know, hey, let's go to Vegas, and hey, let's do. It's just like, even though we have a connection because we go so far, I knew that I had to move away from that relationship, those relationships, because they could be toxic to the one that I care mostly about. Right. Which is my marriage.

[C]

So this might be a little controversial, but you'll hear people debating, like, is it okay for a woman then to have male friends that she talks to and for a man to have female friends that he talks to? Is that okay? Or does that tend to cause problems?

[A]

It doesn't usually work in the vast majority of cases. And most women get furious when you hear that. When they hear that. And most men say, yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. But that the reason why is because that other man is filling the. Filling those gaps that your husband should be filling and vice versa, or that woman is filling those gaps that you should be getting from your wife. Is that not.

[A]

Yeah. Even if it's. Even if it's not. Even if it actually is innocent, it's very challenging because there's always going to be weak spots in the marriage. People are always going to have temptations. It's always very difficult. It is possible, but only under. Only if both. All three people have fully secure attachment. They are all completely on the table with what they want and need. And there are clear, exact goals and guidelines in that relationship.

[B]

For example, my wife's best friend is a man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now she does it. But what's different about their relationship now? And I love, absolutely love him. He's one of my good friends now. He doesn't take any of that role. Anyway. They talk very rarely now, but yet when they're together and we're all together, it's like bonded since childhood, everything. And it's totally good.

[A]

But you said the right thing. He's my friend now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He has to be a friend to the marriage.

[B]

And I also don't feel like she confides in him anything that she's not like.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

I get all of that.

[A]

That's what I mean. That is the only way it works. He has to be a friend to the marriage. He has to be rooting for the marriage. She can't be confiding secretly in him about things she does with you. She can't process with him, process with her mother instead. She can share a bond with him, but he also has a bond with you because of the marriage. He has to respect your marriage with every ounce of his being. And you have to have his moral character be impeccable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And only then does it work. So in those circumstances, absolutely. It can work.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, that's great, Adam. You always blow my mind every time you get on the show. So great. It's so awesome to have you on. This is, in my opinion, has been one of the best ones we've done with you. I took so much away from this, so I can't wait to hear it again. So, yeah. Thank you so much. And I know since you've been on the first time, you're, you're. You've just been exploding.

[A]

Oh, everything's changing.

[C]

Yeah. So. So what do you. So are you still focusing on you doing therapy with people? Are you now offering digital courses? Like, how's this all looking?

[A]

Thank you for asking. That's a great question. Me and my business partners are building a global institute to take attachment science everywhere in the world. My target is to get 1 billion people remade into secure attachment by the end of my life. I got. I'm 40 now. I just turned 40. I have maybe 50 good years left in me. A billion people. But I've learned I can't do that by myself. So I have a team of coaches that I've certified under me. I'm actually going after therapy a little bit because I think it's gone too big and it's taken too many relationships into itself and people have made a religion out of therapy. I think that we need coaching that teaches people what to do. You guys have that right with your system. You tell people what to do so they become independent and can thrive. That's what it's supposed to be. So I have that. I do have self paced learning programs with my course. Courses we're just launching. We launched a great marriage course. I've got a parenting course coming out as well with a neurology specialist that works on nervous systems and does occupational therapy with clients as well. So I got a lot going on right now for people who want to build their relationships.

[C]

That's great. You said therapy is becoming a religion. What do you mean by that?

[A]

When Freud built therapy, he said, I will create a religion of secular priests. And then it went out into the world and it replaced moms. So people go to their therapist because they don't have a mom to talk, talk to or a best friend. They don't have a guide or a mentor or anybody to help them. So they pay a subscription to someone who doesn't care about them and gives them nothing. Advice and just listens to them and then farms them out for thousands of dollars a year. And you have subscription level friends that are fake and you get all your bonding hormones with them and then the relationship ends. And instead of going out and investing in the relationships, you should. And therapy is okay with this. Therapy has built this. And then they just put you in on five or six medications and manage the symptoms and they don't ever really solve the problems. So that's why I have to go after therapy. I have to fix this.

[C]

Oh, that's great. I love it. That is great. Thank you for coming on the show again, brother.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[C]

Always a pleasure.

[A]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically, improve your health.

[C]

And energy, and maximize your overall performance.

[A]

Check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpump Meets. The RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.