2742: Can Music Make You Smarter? The Science Behind Brain-Boosting Sound

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2742 Summary – "Can Music Make You Smarter? The Science Behind Brain-Boosting Sound"

Date: December 4, 2025
Guests: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge (hosts), Dan Clark (Brain.fm CEO)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into the intersection of music, neuroscience, and performance with Dan Clark, CEO of Brain.fm. The hosts and Dan explore how specifically engineered music—not just any playlist or white noise—can enhance focus, relaxation, sleep, and even athletic performance by directly altering brainwave activity and blood flow through novel “neural entrainment” techniques. The discussion distinguishes scientifically backed sound engineering from typical background music and unpacks the brain mechanisms that explain its benefits, with real-life stories, recent scientific validation, and a look toward the future of brain-boosting tech.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Brain.fm and How Does it Work?

[03:36-05:50]

• Brain.fm produces music engineered to “induce brainwave states,” such as focus or relaxation, different from generic playlists or white noise.

  • “We're basically developing specific rhythms and patterns that we put into music that, when you listen, actually align your functional networks together in your brain.” — Dan Clark [05:50].
  • Uses amplitude modulation (“neural entrainment”).
  • Validated to improve focus by 119% in recent studies ([07:38]).

• Not chemically based: No tolerance or downregulation (as with caffeine or medication). In fact, with regular use, the brain becomes more responsive.

  • “You can't normalize to it like you can with caffeine…” — Dan Clark [08:46].
  • Sal and Adam recount personal experiences of rapid, deep focus onset ([09:13-10:30]).

2. Science & Validation

[11:09-13:13, 17:16-19:06]

• Dual validation via fMRI and EEG:
  • Blood flow shifts to relevant brain areas, e.g., the prefrontal cortex for focus ([11:54-12:15]).
  • Electrical activity syncs up (“phase locking”).
  • Peer-reviewed research (Nature) confirms large, reproducible effects, even in placebo-controlled trials ([17:16-18:40]).
    • “We can help increase focus by 119%...” — Dan Clark [07:38].
    • Customization for ADHD and neurodiverse users.

3. Personalization and Use Cases

[13:13-16:20, 37:34-39:11]

• Music is tailored to your needs:

  • Onboarding questions identify distractibility, intro/extroversion, and musical preference.
  • Tracks dynamically adjust “effect level”—intensity—based on user sensitivity or ADHD status ([13:39-15:26]).
    • Overstimulation can cause nausea—self-titration is important ([16:20-16:30]).

• Users range from astronauts (ISS), poker players, pro athletes, to classrooms and individuals managing ADHD or autism ([21:07-22:03, 37:38-38:47]).

  • “We are on the International Space Station. We got asked from NASA to put a special download mode.” — Dan Clark [21:07].

• Pro tip: Practice with the same track increases the speed and depth of effect ([16:20-16:40]).

4. Workout Mode & Pain Modulation

[24:12-30:13]

• Brain.fm is releasing a 'Workout' mode, specifically engineered for exercising (not just focus), aiming to boost dopamine, reduce perceived exertion and pain, and increase enjoyment.

  • “We're trying to add more dopamine–like, way more than focus...” — Dan Clark [26:45].
  • Early data shows reduced cardio monotony, faster “runners’ high.”
    • “It's kind of like drinking a pre-workout the entire time you’re working out.” — Dan Clark [28:29].

• Pilot research includes medical applications:

  • Used clinically to wake patients from anesthesia 30% faster ([25:33]).

5. Optimizing Focus & Productivity

[22:31-24:12, 48:27-51:53]

• Block scheduling (e.g., 90 min focus, recharge, repeat) and gamification aids productivity ([22:31-24:12])
• Pomodoro method: 25 min on, 5 min off—helpful for mundane or ADHD tasks, but longer flow periods (60-90 min) better for deep work ([48:27-49:47]).
• Start your day with quick, easy wins—not hardest tasks to kick off dopamine and momentum ([49:58-51:13]).
  • "One of the best ways to get started is to start the dopamine. That’s what you want to do." — Dan Clark [50:23].
  • Avoid distractions (“You only have 60 seconds to switch…”) — [51:28-51:53].

6. Neurodiversity & Safe Use

[39:11-41:06, 40:08-40:15]

• Brain.fm is a valuable tool for neurodiverse populations including ADHD, autism, and dyslexia.

  • “Instead of just going to medication, let’s try this first. And not that medication’s bad, but what if you use this and medication, could you take less?” — Dan Clark [39:56].

• Completely safe, no pharmacological risks aside from excessive volume ([40:15], [40:40]).

  • “The only down effect would be you put it on too loud and it hurts your eardrums. There's no other…” — Dan Clark [40:15].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On novel focus improvement:

  • “So what else improves your focus by 100%? That's insane.” — Sal Di Stefano [07:38]

• Personal breakthrough with ADHD/learning differences:

  • “I have dyslexia. I allowed me to, like, you know, have a little bit more power over that. And I think that's again, why my story with Brain FM… that's why. Because it’s the first thing that really worked.” — Dan Clark [41:06]

• Brain.fm scientific credibility:

  • “Nature … saw all the peer reviewed studies that we did, and they validated that we can help increase focus by 119%...” — Dan Clark [07:38]
  • "If you look at the double-blind … there can't be a placebo if you’re asleep… we were able to get people out of a hospital after anesthesia 30% faster." — Dan Clark [25:33]

• Practical advice on focus:

  • “You don’t max out. You got to warm it up. Give your brain some dopamine.” — Dan Clark [50:24]
  • “You only have 60 seconds to switch into the next activity to keep that going.” — Dan Clark [51:28]

• Fun fact:

  • Brain.fm is used on the International Space Station—NASA requested a special mode ([21:07]).

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Timestamps by Important Segment

• [03:36] Dan Clark re-introduced; Sal relates turbulent flight/explains new "travel mode"
• [05:16–07:38] Technical overview: neural entrainment, amplitude modulation, focus validation study
• [09:13–10:50] Personal experiences (“flow state” effect, no downregulation)
• [11:09–12:15] FMRI & EEG: How it’s scientifically studied
• [13:39–16:20] Personalization for ADHD, effect level, intensity titration
• [17:16–19:06] Peer-reviewed research, funding own studies, market differentiation
• [21:07–22:03] Unique use cases (NASA, pro poker, athletes)
• [24:12–30:13] Workout mode, pain modulation, effect on exercise, comparison to runner’s high
• [37:34–39:11] Brain.fm use for kids, neurodiverse learners, off-label classroom uses
• [48:27–49:47] Pomodoro method vs. deep work blocks
• [49:58–51:53] Productivity hack: easy wins then switch to big task, avoid distraction gap
• [55:36–56:14] Growth focus: 70% of users for focus, others for sleep/relax
• [57:48–58:32] Beta workout mode: Mind Pump exclusive
• [59:00+] (Skipped: Outro/ads)

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Flow & Tone

The conversation is energetic, occasionally irreverent, candid, and highly practical—blending science and real-life anecdotes. The hosts maintain a skeptic’s edge (“Isn’t this just meditative music?”), but are hands-on users and vocal fans, while Dan Clark grounds his claims in research.

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Summary Takeaway

Brain.fm is rapidly carving out a new "functional music" category by combining neuroscience and technology to train brain states for higher focus, relaxation, sleep, and even athletic performance. The approach is evidence-based, customizable, safe, and already helping millions—including those with ADHD, high performers, and even astronauts. The future holds even greater personalization through wearables and expanded applications.

For listeners eager to enhance productivity, mental health, or workouts, the episode offers actionable insights, scientific validation, and a 30-day trial for Mind Pump listeners.

Transcript

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[Dan Clark]

There'S only one place to go. Mind Pump Mind Pump with your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer and Justin Andrews.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we have Dan Clark from Brain FM on they engineer music and sounds that change your brain waves literally. They can induce states of mind through sounds. They're the only ones in the world that do this. And in today's episode he goes through the science. It's pretty remarkable. By the way, if you go to Brain FM mindpump, you could try it out for 30 days for free. They have stuff that helps you focus, relax, meditate. They have for our listeners only, a workout mode that induces brainwave states that improve things like your performance, reduce pain, perception and focus. It's pretty amazing. Sprain FM mindpump Now this episode is brought to you by our sponsor, masszymes. These are digestive enzymes for people who love fitness. Take these when you eat your food to break down your proteins, fats and carbs for better digestion, less bloat and better nutrient absorption. Go to masszymes.com mindpump that's M A S S Z Y M-E-S.com mindpump Also right now, if you go to reversedietcall.com, you can schedule a call with one of our coaches, a mind pump personal trainer, and they will set you up with a 90 day customized reverse diet plan. If you want a reverse diet, don't know how, get on with a real trainer, one that we approve of, and they'll customize a plan for you for 90 days. This entire thing is 50% off, by the way. Right now it's normally $99 to do that. Right now it's $49. So if you're interested while we have space, because once we with the spaces filled up, we can't do this anymore, go to reversedietcall.com all right, real quick.

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If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear? [e-mail] I'm talking right now. Hit pause, head on over to mypumpstore.com that's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Dan, welcome back to the show.

[Adam Schafer]

Hey.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Hey.

[Dan Clark]

Thanks for being here.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Good to have you back off air. I gotta share this. Off air, you were talking about how with Brain fm, you guys have a new category because of the story I told on the last time we had you on the show. So for people who aren't familiar, you run the company Brain fm. You guys engineer music that essentially induces states of mind. And I talked about this crazy story of how I was on a flight. I was with these guys we were flying from. Was it Spokane?

[Adam Schafer]

One of the scariest flights I've ever been on. Very short flight, little tiny plane.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The most frightened, frightening flight. I mean, I mean, it was shit. Like, if I didn't have my seatbelt on, I would hit the ceiling a few times. And people are crying and praying and I don't like flying anyway. And I put Brain FM on and I put my hands in my lap here, and it like, saved me, dude, because it was terrifying. And I guess you guys got a lot of messages and you guys. So now you guys have like a travel mode. Like, explain that.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, we put so your story. We had a lot of people said, I had the same thing. I had the same thing. And there's so many people that are stressed, especially now with the holidays around where they're traveling. And the best way to get there is through planes. Right? And what we did is we just put inside the relax that a specific mode that helps you with a click of a button, you listen to calming music, resets your brain, allows you to be relaxed and just feel more at peace, even with turbulence and all these things that are going on around us.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And you just kicked that out, by the way. For people listening right now, it's not just calming music.

[Dan Clark]

No, it's not.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay, so explain if someone doesn't know.

[Adam Schafer]

Who you guys are, because this market can be a little competitive. There's a lot of white noise type of things that you can find on Spotify or YouTube.

[Sal Di Stefano]

This is not listening to meditative music or white noise that cancel. This is engineered sounds that induce brainwave states. Did I say that right?

[Dan Clark]

Yes, that's right. Yes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

All right, so break it down a little bit. What's happening when I'm listening to something that's fighting anxiety or counteracting anxiety or giving me the brain waves that if you were to give me a scan, you would say this is a relaxed brain.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. So let me start off with saying that brain FM is music that's made to enhance the activity that you're already doing with a click of a button. And the way we do that is we basically see music, right? We know what your brain looks like in focus, relax, or sleep. And we develop specific rhythms and patterns that we put into the music that when you listen, actually align your functional networks together in your brain that allow your brain waves to sync and blood flow to shift as you're listening to the music, allowing you to go into focus, relax, or sleep. So we're doing that through a novel process called amplitude modulation. It creates a neural, neural entrainment in your brain. Right. And really it's just fancy new technology that allows you to shift from one state to another. So in the mode that you're listening to when you're freaking on an airplane, right, what's happening is in the base frequency of the music, right? We have an on and off pulse. And your brain, by listening that pulse, it syncs to it and it guides your brain into being a more relaxed state. We take the same technology and we can do that for focus or for sleep or for meditation. And really our bread and butter, a lot of people use this for all these different things, but our bread and butter right now is focus. And that was actually just validated in nature when they came out and they, they saw all the science that we did, saw all of the peer reviewed studies that we did, and they validated that we can help increase focus by 119% for people that are trying to get into that zone.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So what else improves your focus by 100? That's insane.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, if you like pharmaceutical.

[Adam Schafer]

I wonder how that ranks against training traditional things like caffeine or what everybody else would traditionally.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But you're now in the realm of pharmaceuticals, if I'm not mistaken. That's a big impact, and I'm sure.

[Dan Clark]

You can't say, yeah, that's a big claim. But what I would say is what's really interesting is the way it works from a neurochemical level, right. Neurotransmitters is that because we're aligning it in an electrical way by listening to music, that music transforms into electricity in our brains. And then that's changing these patterns on the way our brain literally operates. Right. It allows you to change how your neurotransmitters work. Right. So things that increase your focus are more dopamine in your brain. That's how some of those medications work in Brain fm, by adding stimulation. It also is changing your dopa. Your dopamine, your dopamine. Fancy word. Yeah. But you're the way your dopamine is processed your brain, allowing you to get into that very heightened focus state that you can't just do with caffeine. And you would have to go more on the medication angle. But the cool thing is because it's through electricity and electrical impulses, right. You can't normalize to it like you can with caffeine and these other kinds of things. We're targeting it a completely different way.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, so in other words, you won't have like down regulation from receptors or anything like that using it too much like you would from a pharmaceutical.

[Sal Di Stefano]

No. If anything, you just trains it better. You get an enhanced effect. So what happens to me with Brain FM is when I would listen to focus in the beginning, and this is me personally, about 10 minutes in, I'd feel the kick in and I could feel it like I'm listening to it. I'm, you know, writing this back when I used to write all of our content. Now we have writers. But I would write blogs and I'd listen to Brain FM and it was around 10 minutes in, it felt I'd start to feel locked in. And the best way I can explain the feeling is like when you're really.

[Adam Schafer]

Into something like flow state.

[Dan Clark]

Yep.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

It's almost like tunnel vision, but it's. Yeah, you're just so focused like nothing else really matters. You're just completely about.

[Dan Clark]

Can I ask you a question?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes.

[Dan Clark]

Do you even listen to me? Do you even hear the music anymore after that ten minutes?

[Sal Di Stefano]

No. No.

[Adam Schafer]

It's just There, that's so true that I remember the first time that I use this to read, which just blew my mind that I could. I would be. So one of the reasons why I do better with audiobooks than I do actually reading regular books is if I start to read a regular book, I have to go back and read the pages. My brain trails off with that. And I remember after first getting introduced to brain, if I'm like, I wonder if I played focus while I try to read. It seems counterintuitive to have noise going on while you're trying to read. And it did exactly that. Did the opposite. Noise melts away. I got hyper focused. I could focus reading even better.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So what happens now is if I listen to focus, it's like four minutes. So there is no downregulation. It's, it's. It's like I snap into it quicker. And I think it might have to do with just the way that your neural connections develop after you practice something. But I'm not chemically inducing.

[Dan Clark]

You're not chemically inducing, but you're priming yourself. So there's all these other things that are happening in your brain functionally. Right. From those electrical and blood flow changes. There's also this. Your brain knows what to expect. Right. So the more you're listening to it, the more participates. Correct? Correct. And then you can drop in faster.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What? Okay, Talk about blood flow. What are you guys seeing? You guys are using FMRI studies? Is that what you're doing?

[Dan Clark]

Yes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Okay, so for people unfamiliar, this is a, an MRI that is like real time. So I can put someone in FMRI and I can see where the blood is flowing through the brain. And so through that we can see executive function, fear. It's pretty good. I can't tell exactly what you're thinking, but I can tell that you're anxious.

[Adam Schafer]

I can tell what state you're in.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yes, I can see that. Oh, there's anxiety inducing, or they're thinking of a fond memory, or they're processing something that's requiring logical thought processing. You'd see this in fmri. This is all based on where in the brain it's lighting up that you see the blood. So what do we see? Are they going in there? And they're like, okay, let's watch their brain. Then we're going to put a on focus. And then you can see, like, what does it look? What are they looking at?

[Dan Clark]

That's exactly what's happening. So you will see the brain in an arresting state. Right. Where blood flow is not as much in your prefrontal cortex, where our higher reasoning and thinking is. And as you listen to the music and your brain syncs to it, you can literally see the blood flow go to your prefrontal cortex. And then also in eeg, which is the electrical headsets that you're wearing, you can also see that electrical activity change as well. Um, one thing I mentioned before was neural phase locking, right. And your brain has this phase, and that phase is really just this pattern of. You can kind of think of this is kind of adult, a broader version, but how your brain is, like, oscillating, like, turning on and off. Right. And you can see those patterns start syncing together, which is that phase lock, which allows you to, again, be in that mode that we know is deep focus or deep concentration or creativity or learning reading. And by playing with those states just a little bit different, by changing those patterns, we can bring you from deep work to having some of the best ideas that you've ever had or. Or just feeling like you're on fire.

[Adam Schafer]

Now, is. Is there a. Like, would all three of us. Because obviously, under each category, there's also all kinds of different, like, kind of sounds.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Tons of variety.

[Adam Schafer]

Just tons of variety. And is it normal that, like, oh, this song or whatever is better focused for me than Justin and his resonates more to you? Yeah. Or is it. Is it pretty universal? It's like everybody who listens to this is going to get that. I mean, is. Or is it a spectrum?

[Dan Clark]

Like, it's a spectrum. So what we do is we. When we. You. You come in first, what we're trying to do is figure out, where are you on an ADHD spectrum? Right. We're trying to figure out how sensitive you are to distractions. Right. If you are.

If you are extroverted or introverted. Right. What kind of music you like? Because just by asking you a few basic questions, we can extrapolate a bunch about you.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Dan Clark]

So most people that have ADHD really like electronic music, right? It's linked together because there's high texture, there's a lot of sound. There's a lot of things going on. It's very stimulating. Yeah, yeah. So we ask you a bunch of these things, and then what we're doing is we start matching these things that we break down into activities, into stuff for Adam or Justin. Right. And then inside of that, we actually start personalizing the music for each song that you're listening to for you, and. And we call that effect level and what's happening is if you have more ADHD or.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I'm.

[Dan Clark]

I don't actually. Maybe you guys both, but.

[Sal Di Stefano]

If you guys.

In the room, I'm pretty distressed. Second.

[Dan Clark]

Third, if one person has more than the other, what we're doing is we're actually changing that specific track and song to a higher amount of that. That pattern. So it's. It's more intense. It actually. The amplitude is not just louder, it's actually a stronger signal. So it will basically affect you a little bit more. We can do that because people with ADHD can handle that signal stronger. They actually need it. But if we. People that don't have adhd, they'll actually get a headache because it changes blood flow so dramatically.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's right.

[Dan Clark]

Wow.

[Adam Schafer]

So is there, like an AI component to this that's figuring us out as we listen, or how do you adjust that?

[Dan Clark]

So there's a lot of algorithms that we're using. You know, we could call them AI, we could call them smart algorithms. We could call them a bunch of stuff where we have a lot of really cool stuff on the pipeline that has more to do with that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Dan Clark]

But for right now, we're really using these models that we've created that are about, okay, how does this person perform.

On this pattern? Right. And studied things? And then how do we see over thousands of individuals, how they're locking into flow, et cetera, and studying.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's also what you like and what you don't like.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So it picks up like, oh, he.

[Justin Andrews]

Likes this many classical music all day. And it's.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's.

[Justin Andrews]

I love that too, because there's this association already I have with that. But then you guys layered on top of that the background noises to keep me locked in.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What you said about effect is. So what I noticed is if I go extreme effect on some sounds, it's too much, and it can actually make me feel slightly nauseous.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

This is. It's very powerful. For people listening who haven't tried Brain fm, it is very powerful. And if you go too hard, you'll know you're going too hard and you back off and you get the right dose, and then you get what you're looking for. I mean, this is how I knew it worked, because I was going too hard and I was like, whoa, scale that down. Now I'm focused. Which, by the way, another tip is when you find one that works, practice that same one over and over. There's a particular one that I listen to for the plane rides that will put me to sleep. So Fast. And it's the same one every single time. And now it's like I put it on and three minutes into it, I'm out. Yep, it's pretty remarkable. So talk about what studies did Nature magazine review? What are they looking at when they said, oh, this is legit?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. So we did a study, we did it with Wesleyan University in Northeastern. And basically it was some of the things that we were quoting earlier with FMRI studies with eeg where we're basically looking at people with and without adhd and we're seeing how do you, how do you work over, you know, a 10 minute block of time? Right. So you actually. We would give people video games to play. Some were very boring and, and somewhere more exciting and interesting. And you basically try to start measuring how they start erroring out as they get more bored. Right. And you can start seeing that when you play, you know, our music compared to a placebo or a, you know, just regular music. Yeah, just regular music. There is, there is a very large difference in effect that is reproducible and measurable. And you know, that's really the founding story of Brain fm like we are. There's so many, like you mentioned before, there's so many white noises, binaural beats. There's so many things out there that say, you know, do this and you'll get this result. Right. And for some people, they have really good effects on them. But if you already like that stuff, you're gonna try us and you're gonna feel it dramatically, right?

[Adam Schafer]

To another level.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, we're really trying to productize product, productize bleeding edge science. So there's a lot of times where, you know, you have really smart people in academia and they, they figure this stuff out, but it takes 10 years to get in your hands, make it marketable. Yeah, exactly. So we said, hey, what if we just actually fund the research ourselves? Our top neuroscientist, he literally has a dual.

He's MIT and Harvard. Right. He has a dual program and super, super smart guy. And what if we just hired him instead of some other company? Right? And he can do that, all that work here. And it's through that kind of production, by finding that value and organizing it and then distributing it to people that we can stay on that bleeding edge. And that's how we're making focus even better. We have, you know, really cool stuff with wearables soon and just continuing to push that edge of this is what known science is. How can we apply it and get into people's hands faster what do you mean wearable? Yeah, so there's. Wearables are really exciting because they track your hrv, they track your heart rate, they track your, you know, your skin temperature. And from that we can start creating even more enhanced models of, well, what's going on personally for you and how are you responding to this music individually.

[Justin Andrews]

Based on the biometrics?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, exactly. And there's really cool stuff. Like some wearables coming out right now are like, there's EEG headsets that are coming out that are in headphones.

Apple just came out with the blood heart rate in headphones. So the whole technology is now starting to evolve and we are playing with a lot of things, so when it finally comes out that we can just, just start using it and giving that to people quickly.

[Adam Schafer]

Now you. You had an idea already of, like, what percentage of the people said they either have ADHD or think they have it. So you have a good hold on, on that. How do you have any idea, like, do military people, how many military people use this? Like, I could see like, snipers, I could see, like fighter pilots. I could see, you know, athletes. I could see snowboarders. Like, do you. Do you have an idea of like, the people that, like, is there a big. Is there a genre of people that, like, maybe you didn't see and you like? Yeah, there's a lot of people that use it. Are you seeing stuff?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, there's a lot of high performers that use this, for sure. We, I know for certain we are on the International Space Station because we got asked from NASA to put a special download mode so they could only download it once and then bring it up because they don't have, you know, lot. A lot of bandwidth. We have a lot of professional poker players that use us because you're sitting.

[Adam Schafer]

Down for hours, for hours, and you don't want to give tails away.

[Dan Clark]

That's one of the number one things.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Interesting.

[Dan Clark]

You have to pace yourself. And like, I have a few friends that are pretty high up in the rankings and what they'll do is they'll do focus and then they'll relax and they'll modulate it back and forth. Yeah, depending. So because you can't just like, that's like a common thing that people just try to ramp focus for eight hours a day. And some people can do that, but the normal person really can only sustain that for so long.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, interesting.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So better relax the focus.

[Adam Schafer]

So better. A better strategy would be dip in and out. So if someone really. I'm glad you brought that up because I think somebody could be listening to this and go like, oh cool, I'm gonna slap this on and listen to it all day at work. So what would be. So let's say you have a job, an accountant. Right. So it's laborious, like just plugging numbers away all day or something like that. Or maybe an engineer or something. How would you typically. And I know that there's individuals, but I mean typically recommend like how to use that through the whole day of work.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. So I think first thing is always starting with momentum. Makes everything a lot easier. And we'll get into this with tips and tricks and stuff later. But really it's thinking about your day in focus blocks. Right. So for me personally, I'll do like a 90 minute focus block in the morning of some of my most challenging work. Right. And then I will dive into more of a relax or recharge block, which allows me to, you know, just kind of downregulate. I'll reset and then I'll use some of my maybe more laborious or kind of monotonous work and I'll put like a different type of music on and get back into it to just try to crush it. And I actually try to gamify it a little bit. Right. So, you know, there's some time where I'm just trying to do my best and trying to have my deepest work and others where I am like, okay, I got 60 minutes, let's see what I can do. Right. And I think it's finding what strategy works effectively for you. Right. And really trying to be curious around, you know, what that works. So for the accountant, for example, it would be, okay, what do I have to do? And maybe like, I'm not an accountant, so I'm not sure. But think about it in like, okay, this normally would take me, you know, X amount of time. I'm going to try to shrink that down to 60 minutes. Yeah, I'm going to try to like bang through it. You know, in a way that one, I'm rewarded at the end because I collapsed time. But two, it makes it, you know, as more as exciting as you can, but you're still entertained and able to kind of get into that flow.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Dan, you, you were talking earlier off air that there's like a workout mode you're coming out with.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Playing this.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So why wouldn't it just be focused?

[Dan Clark]

Well, you know, it's really funny. So, you know, I've been on here a few times and we've talked about it. And we have a lot of people that write in and they tell us. We. They use focus. And, you know, that works. Right? But the interesting thing about focus is it's literally made for desk work. It's made to be, you know, you're in front of your computer still, and yeah, you're. It's. We have all these things that we're not getting into. Like, we actually make it so it sounds like the music's coming in front of you to direct your focus even more. And then we're trying to make it so that you kind of don't even hear the music after a while. Like you guys have said.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's just.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, yeah. So we're doing a lot of techniques. We're at. We're, you know, changing. We're making it so that there's not strong salience, like differences in sound. Right. We're just trying. Everything is designed about just getting you into that state. But workout is the complete opposite of that. Right. So we said, hey, what if we flipped it on its head? We actually started experimenting on this in the medical side of the business for some pain management. And we discovered that if.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Are you guys engineering music to reduce the perception of pain?

[Dan Clark]

We have a few things that we're researching. And that's. That's a Y1.

[Sal Di Stefano]

He didn't say that.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, we. We have some really cool stuff. We. We actually. And quick. On the side of the medical. We actually did a clinical study where we woke people up from anesthesia faster and got them out of the hospital. And there's a lot of people, they look at our science. We have a lot. But there's always a question, is this placebo? And if you look at the double blind and you kind of excuse all that stuff, even if you go further, there can't be a placebo if you're asleep. And in this, we were able to get people out of a hospital after anesthesia 30% faster. Right. Instead of waking up and you're, like, kind of drunk, you're actually coherent, and you can just, you know, you're like, oh, wow, that was great. Really, really cool stuff. That's a. That's a whole nother thing.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Anti drunk.

Play this.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You won't fail to sober Lucky to sober you up.

So talk about this workout one, because I'm tripping right now. My mind is spinning because I'm already thinking in my head.

[Justin Andrews]

So how's it different than focus?

[Sal Di Stefano]

It could change how someone perceives pain exertion. You could improve the perceptions of pleasure, which would just make the workout way more awesome.

[Dan Clark]

We're trying to add more dopamine, like way more than focus, right where it's distracting. We're trying to add a lot of texture and a lot of events that basically take your energy away from how much maybe pain you're in, but also at the same time by adding stimulation which allows you to have that muscle connection. Right. That we're all trying to get right. And we started experimenting with this. This has actually been something in the making for like four or five years. And it's close enough now where it's not. We're not putting our metal and saying it's as good as focus or sleep yet. But we are releasing beta and we wanted to release beta actually with you guys because of the relationship that we have.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So people listening can go and try.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, they can go and try. And it's been crazy. So I wanted to, you know, get, get fit. And I started doing, you know, a bunch of different diet, but I realized I really needed to start doing some cardio and my friend signed me up for a Hyrox. And I don't know if you guys know about Hyrox, but it's basically a running competition.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah, they suck.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What are you thinking, dude?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, full on circuit.

[Dan Clark]

I. I was like, I'm gon try it. And I basically, I was like, never a runner. Never thought I was going to be a runner. I don't understand runners. And my experience was always running was the most monotonous thing. It was boring right when we started. When I started playing with this and testing it, I now am a runner and now I can run six miles.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Explain. You mean you're just not bored? Like you're just.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. What's happening is we're adding this energy, the music and now I can run where I'm not. It's. It's funny because we're not like the music is something that's, you know, you're, is just guiding you. Right. And eventually you reach the same point where you're not really listening to it anymore. But it's kind of like just this giving you it. Like the best way I can describe it, it's kind of like drinking a pre workout the entire time you're working out and you feel this thing instead of feeling the pain and like, oh, I want to stop. And all this stuff, it kind of gets you through this pace, that, that first like five minutes of cardio where you're like, oh, I can do this.

[Adam Schafer]

So this is, this is interesting to Me, because anybody, like, I mean, I wouldn't call myself runner, but I've ran a lot in my life, and you have that the first 10 minutes, and then you hit what most people call the runner's high. And that's. It's like, once you get past that, you break that kind of first sweat, you hit the 10 minutes, all of a sudden, the run becomes so much easier. It would be so cool to see a study. Yeah, Like. Like, I. I know, because I've ran enough times that it's about 10 minutes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

For me, it.

[Adam Schafer]

To know that I could get there in five would be, like, a huge deal.

[Dan Clark]

That's the goal. That's the goal.

[Adam Schafer]

So that would be dope to be able to go, like, you know, get your runners high in half the time.

[Sal Di Stefano]

If you can induce, you know, catecholamine production or dopamine production, you probably can induce and endogenous. Cannabinoid. Endocannabinoid production, which is what happens. That's part of the runner's high, is their body's actually producing cannabinoids.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, you've obviously felt that, right? Like, I know you're not a big.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Runner, but, I mean, you.

[Adam Schafer]

You run and you run, and it's like, yes, it's like that once. That kind of first sweat, and I. After 10 minutes, like, the first 10 minutes, it's like, I don't want to do this.

[Dan Clark]

This sucks.

[Adam Schafer]

And then after that, it's like, oh, I could go for another hour.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I got to add to this, though, Dan, because someone who's never experienced Brain FM is like, well, yeah, there's music that'll do that to me. Like, I'll listen to my favorite song or that, you know, the. You know, for me, it's like Rocky 4 montage music, you know, and you get the chills. That's not what we're talking about.

[Adam Schafer]

Wrecking Ball.

[Dan Clark]

Right.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But we're not. For Justin, it's Wrecking Ball Crushes. That's not what we're talking about. This isn't bringing you back a memory that's giving you a feeling or that's motivating you because you're like, oh, I like this song. Although the music's good, it's the sounds themselves. Get the brain to operate in a way that mirrors what you would see in a scan if you were looking at someone who's enjoying their workout.

[Dan Clark]

Totally.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Or who's focused on reading something that they really like or who's meditating or whatever. So it's literally telling the brain through sounds. And sounds have a very profound effect on the brain if you just know how to engineer them. It's making the brain operate as if you were, which then makes you.

[Adam Schafer]

What about.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a lot more deliberate, too, with the workout version of it. Like, it wants to get your attention and to get you focused on these sounds more to distract from what's going on with.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Your paint signal.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. So, you know, those. Those patterns that we talked about, because, you know, sounds, there's. There's so many things inside of that. Right. Inside of those sounds, there's a lot of how the music is comp. You know, compositionally, if you like it, you know, whether it's EDM or it's, you know, heavy metal or whatever. But inside of that is that pattern that we talked about before. And remember that we can adjust that pattern per user and per track. And when you're working out, you already have a lot more blood flow going on, so we can ramp that up even higher, which gives you that effect even more. Another way to think about what we do is. Is plugging in and plugging out. Right. When you focus, when you work out, you're trying to plug in, you're trying to get jazzed up, you're trying to do something right. And then when you want to relax, you're trying to plug out. You're trying to not be anxious on flights. You have too much energy. And what we're doing is, again, we're shifting those patterns that shift blood flow. So we're shifting blood flow into your prefrontal cortex, and we're shifting blood flow out of your prefrontal cortex, which allows us to regulate how you feel and enhance, you know, your goal.

[Justin Andrews]

Have you guys ever had any studies or tested, like, stress hormone responses with this?

[Dan Clark]

We haven't done stuff like that. Now that we have this nature paper and we were successful. And it's kind of cool because we're a small company. It's like winning the Oscar. Like, not many companies do this. We're like an indie film winning something. But now we're like, okay, we've done it. What's next? Right? And we have a lot of different, you know, ideas and things that we want to do our next study on. Most people don't realize that this study costs us a million dollars, right? So it's not. When you turn on the FMRI machine, it's a quarter of a million bucks.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Plus you got quarter million every time.

[Adam Schafer]

You just turn the fmri.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You better make sure this is a good Study going into it. Well, you have controls, you have people, you have placebo. You got it.

[Dan Clark]

It's all, you gotta do it the right way. Because at the end of the day we want conclusive evidence that what we're doing works and we want people to trust us and we can say, oh yeah, do this and all these great things and users. And that's true. We have, you know, four plus million users using us. But what's even more powerful is if you want to look at the study and want to look at it and read it yourself, you can. Right? And that's what we want. We want to be the leaders in this new functional music category and really help people just, you know, be there fast.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I just immediately think about performance and I'm thinking about like getting into that sympathetic state as quickly as possible, but then also like after I'm done, like being able to recover in parasympathetic state and kind of shifting that how, you know, if there's a way to do that musically through, you know, your.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Guys product, there's a lot of ways to hack what you guys do. People with digestive issues listen to, meditate or relax while you eat. Wake up in the morning, I'm groggy. Put on a little focus or maybe now the workout, like there's a lot of ways to use this to kind of move through the day because you, you don't. You're not always going to be focused or at least that's not ideal. You're not always going to be relaxed. That's always not ideal. But there are moments when those are ideal states of mind. Are you guys. Because there's a lot of FMRI studies on. We can look at a brain and we can pretty reliably predict whether or not that person is feeling a particular way with at least the major feelings. One of them is like being in love. Another one is euphoria. Have you guys looked into engineering music to try to induce some of these? Because I could see my. I would be very interested, like, oh, this is euphoria. I want to see what this feels like. Have you looked at some of this stuff too?

[Dan Clark]

Right now we're kind of really focused on activities, right? Because we want to like. I would love to make everyone euphoric, but if I'm assuming if, if I had a euphoria button, I just press that thing all day.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Right.

[Dan Clark]

So let's go. I, I think really, you know, the first thing is just trying to enhance and, and get people to, you know, unlock that part of themselves. That's what we hear a lot of people say is that they're like, once I get going, I'm unstoppable, but I need that button to start. And that's where a lot of people start with us in the morning, they put on a motivation track. They put us on in deep work. And eventually we want to make the soundtrack that if you wanted to, you could listen to us 24 7. We don't expect that necessarily, but we actually already have people that listen to us every night for focus or, sorry, every night for sleep. Right. They start their day. You know, they use this for relax, workout. You know, there's so many other things there. And there's also these really cool use cases that still are being used by people that were not really intended for. So for example, a lot of people solve their focus problem and maybe, maybe they don't need sleep, but they have a brand new baby. Yeah. And they're like, you know what? Why not? I'll put sleep on. And now they put it every night for their kid. And those moments are the really cool times.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So you guys are okay now playing it on speakers? I remember for a second that you're like, it has to be on headphones. But we experimented on the speakers and it works too.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, it still works on. You know, we're always learning new things. But if you want the highest effects for focus and for workout, speakers are gonna be not as high as headphones, but it still will work. But for relax and for sleep and all those down states because it's so slow, this waveform, you can put on speakers, no problem.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, well, that makes sense.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Because you always were talking about how you play it for Max.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, yeah, always. That's how we use it. I've always used it through a speaker.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Even when we were told we're not.

[Adam Schafer]

Supposed to talk about it like that.

I was like, it worked. I mean, obviously if you put noise canceling headphones so there's no other distractions and you're only getting that input. Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Makes sense.

[Adam Schafer]

That's the highest level you can get.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Are you having.

[Adam Schafer]

But it's super effective with a little Bose speaker putting right towards you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Are you able. I don't know if you're even able to comment on this, but do you guys have parents who are using it for their kids who are struggling with school? And hey, I don't want my kid to have to go on medication. Are you getting users?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, we get a lot of users do that. We have. So we have A lot of people that want to use this as a first reach, rather, instead of going right to medication, they're saying, hey, let's try this first. And people write in, they say, oh, my gosh. There's a huge difference. We have teachers playing this in classrooms, off of over speakers, things like that. We also have. What's really interesting, too, is people that are kids that are very neurodiverse, right? So you're talking that they have autism or other kinds of learning disabilities, and they put this on and they're like night and day.

Again. There's so many interesting things. We have a lot, an autistic community of people that use focus to go out, to go to parties because it helps regulate how they feel, which allows them to be more social and things like that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

I have family members. I can't believe I haven't introduced this to that makes a lot of sense. Wow, that's remarkable. And you have a friend that you have. You recommended. No, I have.

[Adam Schafer]

Literally, why he was talking. I'm like, I'm so gonna send that to them and get them get their son on it before they even consider doing something like that. And I could just see that that's one of the things that they like. Getting him to sit down and do homework and sit still for like 10, 15 minutes exactly is really tough.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Dan, off air, you were talking about how you. Because you had. You've talked, you've told us your story on previous episodes of how, you know, you dropped out of high school and you had struggled with focus because you have adhd. You said you just realized a few years ago that you had dyslexia as well.

[Dan Clark]

Yes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

How do you figure that out a few years later? How did that discovery.

[Dan Clark]

So this, this. There's so many different forms, right? And. And actually, before I get onto this, I'll just say that, you know, what we're learning or what. What is not commonly told in public is that it's just a spectrum. And some people are shifted this way or this way. Right. So I think it's, you know, really important for people to recognize that for, you know.

Different kids, right, instead of just going to medication, let's try this, because maybe they're just here, right? And some. And not. Not that medication's bad, but what if you use this in and medication, could you take less? Could you do, you know, more, you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Know, and because this is not pharmaceutical, combining it with Medicaid, perfectly safe.

[Dan Clark]

The only down effect of this, the negative effect, would be you put it on too loud. And it hurts your eardrums. There's no other. Our brains are designed to eliminate a lot of things going on. And that's actually one. Again, that pattern. We're trying to get through that elimination network. Right. And that's again, why it's effective and why there's no downside from it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So back to how did you figure out three years as an adult?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. So I, you know, I can read fine. And numbers have always been hard for me, but whatever, everyone. Math is. Math is hard. Right. And it wasn't until I was actually. I think I might have been on TikTok or something like that, and someone started talking about the different forms of dyslexia. And.

I was like, wait a second, I have that. I thought that was me having, like, a part of adhd and, you know, they're blended together. But I have this hard time remembering audio. Right. So, you know, someone will quote a classic movie line or say a song or whatever. Doesn't work for me. Right. I. It's so hard for me to remember facts and figures and, you know, like, sports team names and things like that, like stats. I'm not a sports guy because I can't hold any of that information. And again, growing up, I just thought maybe I was dumb, right. And then finding years later that, oh, it's actually, I have a. I have dyslexia. It allowed me to, like, you know, have a little bit more power over that. And I think that's again, why my story with Brain FM and, you know, selling everything I have so I could go all in as a user, you know, that's why. Because it's the first thing that really.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Worked, you know, okay, this is why I'm so interested in this. I had. And I haven't looked into this, but now I'm going to look into it. I had a woman that was a client of mine, and she was, I want to say either a psychology professor, or I believe she was psychology professor. And I was talking about how. So I read fine, no problem numbers. I'm not good at math, but I don't. Yeah, it's hard, but I'm. I have the most disoriented sense of direction that I've ever heard of. I've only met one other person who I would say is like me. I could literally get lost by turning around and going back around, and then I don't know which direction is right, left. He needs. He needs the.

[Adam Schafer]

The map quest to get out of his neighborhood.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's really bad.

[Adam Schafer]

True story.

[Sal Di Stefano]

It's really, it's, it's frustrating and she said that it's a form of dyslexia. So I'm going to look into it to see if. What's the deal because I also have add.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

And I know that there's a kind of a crossover.

[Dan Clark]

So there's definitely, I mean some of the, the most successful entrepreneurs in the world. Thank you.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Make me feel better.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, yeah. Richard Branson, you know, I name a few, but, you know, and that's what we're like again.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Do you have a lot of entrepreneurs that do, Brandon? You got to have a huge.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, I imagine, yeah. Because it attracts, it attracts people with add. I mean the positive thing in that, because I know it's always talked about as such a, in such a negative light. The positive side of that. You have also the ability to crazy obsess and focus about things, right?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean that's the part that, that's why entrepreneurs are at so much stuff have so many of us have. That is because, oh this, this could be a superpower.

[Sal Di Stefano]

We also seek out novelty, which makes us less risk averse, which is what you need as an entrepreneur. Not be so afraid to take risks.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, yeah. There's, there's so many cool things in the whole entrepreneur landscape, like your novelty seeking. You are, you are trying to also make up for feeling less than a lot of it. Right. And that again comes from, you know, maybe, maybe being told that you can't do something or you're not smart enough or whatever. It was really one of the reasons why entrepreneurs love us so much is because to this point they figured it out. Right. They're able to function by pure will alone. Yeah. But now you give them a tool that allows them to go to the next level. Yeah, we just gotta, I, I mean I just read.

A love letter, right. We get thousands of them a week and I just read someone and they were saying how.

Much of a change that they've had from using Brain FM and they're trying to create a healthcare startup that's going to try to change the world. And they're like, you are allowing me to do the thing that I need to do so I can help people. And I thought that was really cool because I've always thought of, well, we're just trying to help people that we're trying to change the world, but we're also doing is we're helping other people compound effect change the world through the things that they make. Which is pretty, pretty fun.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So you guys do something Interesting. Which. And we talked off air. The crazy conversion rate you guys have is insane. So you guys let people try it out for free for a month?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, for 30 days.

[Sal Di Stefano]

For 30 days. And you were saying that at least half the people stick around.

[Dan Clark]

Yes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Which for anybody who's listening, like when you give away something expecting a conversion. 50%. Nobody gets 50%.

[Dan Clark]

No, no, no. I think industry rates are like 30%. You know, we do the whole thing. It's really interesting if you want to get into, like, user psychology and things like that. So we used to give Brain FM out for free, no credit card, and people could just try it. But then when we did that, people were like, oh, I'll just try it later. I'll just try it later. Because everyone has adhd, right. And so what we did.

[Adam Schafer]

It's really funny, you marketed those people.

[Dan Clark]

It didn't work. And what's really. And you see this in apps a lot where you have, you know, put in your credit card, you get seven days or 14 days, or, you know, for mind pump listeners, you get 30. And when we did that, our conversion rate spiked because then people are like, I have to try this before it charges me. And you can cancel anytime, and if it doesn't work for you, cancel. But we find is that people, when they sign up and they're motivated to try it, they'll actually sit down and be like, I'm gonna try this for 60 minutes. And in that 60 minutes, their first session will be 60 or 90. Or some people do it for three or four hours.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Is that what you're noticing?

[Dan Clark]

Yeah. And those people go from basically zero usage to three hours a day every day. And they're still using us, you know, three, four, five. We're coming up on 10 years.

[Sal Di Stefano]

You know, I have yet to find anybody who I've introduced it to actually tried it that said it didn't work. Yes, because that's what I always say to them. Wait 10 to 15 minutes. Just wait 10 to 15 minutes and then let me know. And then sure enough, they're like, what? This is wild. And every single one of them ends up converting.

[Adam Schafer]

Are you allowed to talk about famous people or athletes or people that are using it? I mean, do you guys have users like that? Are you allowed to talk, disclose that stuff?

[Dan Clark]

I know we have people that have written in and shared a lot of success, but I don't have their express permission. But I will say there's a lot of people that.

You would recognize. Right? Like some. Some very large celebrities, some very pro Athletes. And I think it's, it's again, it's for the high performer that wants to consistently be on their, their best, especially, you know, pro athletes and things like that. This is part of their repertoire.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Dan Clark]

You know, I always think of Brain FM as a tool, but not a, not the all solution. So you add this with the other tools that you have. Add this with your caffeine, add this with your energy drink. Add this. You know, like, for me, I would, I would say that like the best, my best hack for me is right, take an L theanine, drink a cold brew, put on Brain fm and just sit down and you're gonna find this really cool effect from this energy from the caffeine and then guiding that energy from Brain fm. And the results are really remarkable.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What's the pomodoro effect or what is that? I see that in your notes.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What is that? Exactly?

[Dan Clark]

So pomodoro is this very widely known method of focusing where you focus for, I believe it's 20 or 25 minutes on, and then you take a five minute break.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So you just back and forth, back.

[Dan Clark]

And forth, back and forth. And that's really good for people with ADHD that like, you know, working on a task for 90 minutes is really hard and scary. The thing is though, that a lot of people think that that's the best, most optimal way to work. And I would say that's really good for monotonous tasks that you just have to get through. But for really deep work like developing or writing, we have a ton of writers. I think 90 minutes, 60 to 90 minute blocks is really the best. Because by the time you are right about in that flow state, why would you leave? Yeah, why would you stop it?

[Adam Schafer]

Well, I think that's, that, that's what happens to me. That strategy was used without Brain fm. Right. That's typically what we figure we found is most people's attention span is really strong in the first 20 minutes and then they trail off. And so you're better off breaking up. But that's assuming you don't have a tool like this. You have a tool like this and 20 minutes now becomes 60, 90 minute blocks that are far more successful. That's really cool. That's a selling point and a half by that because I've seen the studies and stuff that say that.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What about like, you know, when you have a bunch of tasks to do, do the one you hate the most or the hardest one first. Get that one out of the way. Yep. You have in your notes that. That's a myth. Explain that.

[Dan Clark]

No, I was saying so in my notes. A lot of people think they have to work on their hardest tasks.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's what I mean.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The one that's the hardest first.

[Dan Clark]

So. So that's really hard because you're basically like, okay, I gotta write this chapter or do whatever. And what happens is you just stare at the screen. Right. And one of the best ways to get started is to start the dopamine. Right?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, good point.

[Dan Clark]

That's what you want to do.

[Sal Di Stefano]

So if I have to start with anything that's the hardest, I'm less likely to want to start.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, you should all. I mean, so all. All focus is. Is. Is very. Is controlling energies. Energy management. Right. But it's also learning how our brains and our bodies work. And while you certainly want to do your most intensive tasks on Monday morning. Right. If you just cold start, just like going to the gym and doing a deadlift, you don't just. Yeah. You don't max out. Right. You got to warm it up. You got to give your. Your body or your brain, in this case, some dopamine. So what I'll usually do is I go through my day and I go, okay, this is the number one thing I have to do. It's A, Right. B, C, D and E. Right. And then I'll just do D for 20 minutes first. I get that away. I already won something. Cool. And then here's the thing.

[Adam Schafer]

Then you lock in.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, you have to lock in because a lot of people will answer those five emails they have to do and then go to start their writing thing. But in today's world, they'll be like, oh, let me just reward myself by scrolling on TikTok. Ruined.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yeah.

[Dan Clark]

You only have 60 seconds to switch into the next activity to keep that going. So you really want to start off with something small like an appetizer. Right. Get yourself ready and. But you have to stay in that focus zone and then immediately switch in that. That harder task, and you're going to find it a lot easier to stay consistent and build, you know, productive work.

[Adam Schafer]

That's interesting. What comes to mind for me when I think of, like, my days, and it would be like, knock out the quick, open email stuff. Right. Get to my emails real quick and answer, respond, whatever, cash out.

[Dan Clark]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

And then that's like kind of. Because it's easy, it's mundane. Probably 20 minutes if I do it every day.

[Dan Clark]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

And then lock into the thing that I got to really get. But I want to Be ready to go right away, it sounds like. So you don't want to delay.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Minutes or a long time. It's like you want to have that big task ready to go so you can transition right into it.

[Dan Clark]

Totally. And you want something that you know you can hit. So, you know, email works for some people because they're like. Yep. Like clockwork. Other people, they open their email and it's like, I don't know, it could be 10 minutes, it could be three hours. So you really want to find that task that you have to do that's, you know, just like doing a warmup.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Rep. How are you, how are users finding you? I mean, I know we talk about you guys, but how are you reaching out? Because I'm always tripping. I'm like, 4 million years is a lot, but I'm like, why isn't it 40 million? Like, this is so again, if you try this, if you're listening, you try. Blows your mind. It's really weird.

[Adam Schafer]

Are you self funded? What's the funding like with you guys?

[Dan Clark]

We did a.

What is it called? A safe note. So like a pre seed funding round, but now we're completely bootstrapped and we're kind of, we're scaling on top of that.

[Adam Schafer]

What you see is, you know, companies like Binaural Beats, which have got, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars behind them that are probably pumping ads at a loss just so they can get people right.

[Dan Clark]

Well, you know what, it's actually funny because a lot of the. There's not a lot of funding in Binaural Beats. It's just there's so many copycats that they all look the same.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, interesting.

[Dan Clark]

So when you compare us to, you know, I can name like 20 binaural beat companies. They all are, you know, basically trying to steal each other's lunch. And that looks like, hey. But what's really interesting, what's been helpful for us is it's still showing people that there's music made for focus. And then eventually they try us too, and they go, wow. And they stay with us. Our biggest source right now is word of mouth. It's still, and it always is. And what's really cool is internationally, we're really starting to grow. That's cool. So, you know, obviously this works in any language. It's. It's music, right?

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, good point.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Any studies you want to fund or, you know, that you would love to maybe do to.

[Dan Clark]

Oh, man, so many. I would love to. I mean, first, I think a lot of the wearable stuff that we want to do would be really, really cool. Again, there's. There's some really cool wearables coming out. Like, you know, if you. Or ring, you have Apple watch. Those are. Those are some cool stuff. But you also have EEG stuff where it's these things that we actually are in all of our experiments, but now they're, like, putting it down into very small form factors. You also have fnirs, which is a headband, and it's shooting a laser, like a very, very tiny penetration into your skull. Your skull. And it's just reading the blood flow, like, from, like, the. A few millimeters in, and it can estimate how focused you are. Like, there's a ton of really cool integration stuff there. I think there's also really cool stuff in, like, the wearable and fitness component. Like, I. I remember talking to you and you're like, do a study with cgms. Yeah, right. And there's. There's a lot. There's. There's actually so much, you know, and what we're trying to always balance is how do we, you know, stay focused. Right. It's really ironic. I own a focus company and I need to stay focused. Right. And that's actually what's been allowing us to grow and succeed this year. We've. We've doubled in size.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Oh, wow.

[Dan Clark]

And it's really. Because we're focusing on very specific, you know, problems. And this problem right now is how can we help people focus no matter where you are in the world. No matter, you know, where. Where you are in the spectrum. Right. And we want to help you. And I think the next one is probably now going after people with insomnia or panic attacks.

[Adam Schafer]

If you were to give me. I'm assuming that what led you guys to that, you probably put it on a pie chart and of, you know, say, last year and said, this is our greatest piece of the pie.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

So is that right?

[Dan Clark]

70% of people that come to us is focused right now.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Wow.

[Adam Schafer]

See, that's so interesting for me because I'm more of the sleep guy as far as how I use it, although I use it for focus. So you guys, 70% are focused.

[Sal Di Stefano]

A big part of it, too, though, Adam, is that we. You and I, well, most of us don't do the kind of work where we have to sit there and focus.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

No, if I do.

[Sal Di Stefano]

What we do is in here. And this is pretty engaging and, you know, so. But if. If I was like, when I used to write our content, I would use.

[Adam Schafer]

No, we all had some. You know, it makes sense when, you know, I just like, what a. What a brilliant thing. In an era where, I mean, I. I remember reading, like just a decade or two ago, the attention span of the average person. And like, you know, what it's down to now?

[Dan Clark]

Like it.

[Sal Di Stefano]

The goldfish.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. It used to be like a minute, then it was like 30 seconds. There's like 15 things like six seconds now. You have to get. Grab somebody's attention. And we're in this attention war. Right. Like, that's more valuable than money today is grabbing people's attention.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

Which is also another way of saying we're distracted. Like, so we're massively distracted as a species in a society. And so you guys coming out with something or focusing on something that helps people stay not distracted and stay focused.

[Sal Di Stefano]

But here's the thing, too, because of the way that it's training the brain, even without playing the music, your brain now gets into these states easier because it's moving the blood flow, because it's conditioning the mind or the brain through these sounds. You have an effect that lasts in between listening to it. So use it regularly. You get. You're more focused even when you don't use it, which I think is very interesting.

[Dan Clark]

Totally.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Very cool. Dan, this is great. Yep. Thanks for coming back on, man. Always appreciate what you guys do. Easy to talk about.

[Adam Schafer]

You guys can't wait to try the workout.

[Dan Clark]

Of course. Yeah, for. I mean, for all Mind Pump listeners. If you go to Brain FM slash Mind Pump, you guys are going to get the extended 30 days. Right. And also you can try focus all the other activities and you'll automatically be signed up for beta. And we're looking for feedback. Right. This isn't finished, but we want to hear people from cardio. We also want to hear workouts, weightlifting. I hit my PR for Deadlift while listening to it, so it works for both. And I hit nothing compared to you guys, but I hit 415.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's great.

[Dan Clark]

Yeah, that's a big deadlift, dude.

[Sal Di Stefano]

Great job, dude.

[Adam Schafer]

That's awesome.

[Sal Di Stefano]

That's awesome. So it's Brain FM forward slash, Mind Pump.

[Dan Clark]

Yes.

[Mind Pump Intro Announcer]

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