2766: Become a Bodybuilder AND Run a Marathon! Here is How.

Summary

Mind Pump Episode 2766: Become a Bodybuilder AND Run a Marathon! Here’s How (January 7, 2026)

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Main Theme

In this episode, Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews dive deep into one of the most frequently asked fitness questions: Is it possible to successfully train for both bodybuilding (maximal muscle and strength) and endurance (marathon-level endurance) at the same time? The hosts break down scientific studies, their own coaching experiences, and practical approaches on how to structure training and nutrition to pursue both goals. Throughout the episode, they coach live callers with issues ranging from nutrition to overcoming exercise addiction, and discuss the realities of maintenance, metabolism, and sustainable health habits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Can You Really Build Muscle & Maximize Endurance Together?

• Sal opens by stating the dilemma: muscle building and endurance are competing adaptations—maximizing one typically compromises the other ([04:05]).
• "You want strength, you want muscle, and you want lots of endurance. Here we go." – Sal ([04:20])
• Larger muscles mean more strength but can reduce oxygen and nutrient delivery—making them less suited for extreme endurance ([05:25]).
• The hosts clarify: training for both "the right way" yields decent gains in both, but not the maximum of either ([06:39]).

2. Three Science-Backed Training Structures for Hybrid Goals

• Option 1: Combine lifting & endurance in a single workout (lift first, then run). Programming must be modified based on primary goal (muscle or endurance) ([09:09]).
  • "If you just lift, then run, you’ll see decent results—just don’t make the common mistakes of doing both hard, all the time."
• Option 2: Dedicated lifting days and separate endurance days—yields better results than mixing both in the same session ([10:30]).
  • "Body responds best to specificity. Always the case." – Justin ([10:30])
• Option 3 (Superior for General Pop): Alternate entire weeks—one week lifting only, one week endurance only ([11:11]).
  • "It seems to produce the best overall gains in both muscle and endurance." – Sal
  • Caveat: Not recommended for athletes who need constant skill practice ([12:31]).

Memorable Quote

"If you do it wrong, you’ll get none of both. If you do it right, you get a decent amount." – Sal ([06:37])

3. Practical Programming Advice

• Beginners: Focus on building strength and metabolic base first—six months of strength training before adding significant endurance work ([27:09]).
  • "Get really strong right now, build your metabolism, then add the endurance piece." – Adam ([25:29])
• Intermediate/Advanced: Use week-on-week-off protocol to get both adaptations when general health/function is the goal.
• Emphasize practice and skill before intensity, especially with running mechanics ([16:41]).

4. Nutrition Strategies for Concurrent Training

• High protein, high carb diets recommended: Low carb impairs both strength and endurance ([18:22]).
• Calorie deficits hinder both goals: Trying to lose fat while pursuing both adaptations leads to suboptimal results ([19:32]).
  • "Stop trying to do both (lose fat and maximize performance). That's just crazy." – Sal ([19:37])
• Meal timing is important—eat before and after endurance sessions to support recovery.
• Fish oil and anti-inflammatory fats help manage increased training inflammation ([18:21], [21:51]).

Notable Anecdote

"My brother-in-law, does jiu jitsu, always tired, always sore. I made him up his protein—one week later, he texts, ‘I have more energy, I’m stronger, my abs are sharper.’” – Sal ([20:15])

5. Sleep, Recovery, and Injury Prevention

• Lack of sleep dramatically increases injury risk: “There is nothing that will increase your risk of injury more than lack of sleep.” – Sal ([23:38])
• Mobility, deep stretching, and lifestyle habits become even more important with hybrid training ([22:17], [24:40]).

6. Red Light Therapy & Recovery Enhancement

• Sal discusses studies showing red light therapy improves both muscle gains and recovery:
  • “Identical twins, one did red light therapy, the other didn’t—more muscle gain in the one who did.” – Sal ([28:37])
• Red light therapy also provided small strength gains without exercise ([29:03]).

7. Caller Coaching Themes

• Naomi ([55:45]): Lost significant weight, wants to break plateaus. Advice: prioritize whole foods, maintenance, strategic mini-cuts, and eat for satiety guided by hunger.
• Jessica ([64:49]): Surgeries affected her routine; wants a sustainable maintenance plan. Advised to increase total calories, focus on whole foods, higher protein, and let body fat creep up to a healthy, maintainable zone (for women in the low 20s bodyfat %).
• Matthew ([80:35]): Struggles with losing belly fat, motivation, fitting training and diet amidst life/kids. Practical rules: hit target protein (1g/lb of goal bodyweight), stick to whole foods, avoid bringing treats into the house. Advice to model the desired habits for his kids.
• Rachel ([100:12]): Exercise addiction, anxiety from not training, under-eating despite heavy farm/ranger lifestyle. Guided to add 500+ calories, focus on higher calorie shakes/meals, and push past discomfort with eating more to enable strength and muscle gain.

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Notable Quotes

• On hybrid programming:
  • "This is a compromise, no matter what." – Justin ([06:37])
• On fueling training:
  • "High protein, high carbohydrate. Low carb is not going to work well...especially on the endurance days." – Sal ([18:22])
• On sustainable nutrition:
  • "If you just stick to whole natural foods and hit your protein target, eat when you’re hungry, you’ll see yourself get leaner." – Sal ([84:01])
• On exercise addiction:
  • "This is gonna feel uncomfortable – you’re going to have to eat more, it’ll feel like you’re force feeding yourself." – Sal ([103:53])
• On impact of sleep:
  • "There’s nothing that increases your risk of injury more than lack of sleep." – Sal ([23:38])
• On parental modeling:
  • "If you’re not motivated enough to do it for yourself, do it for your kids… You're setting them up for the same struggle you’re experiencing now." – Adam ([88:31])
• On red light therapy:
  • "There are very few biohacking tools that make a big difference, but red light therapy is one of them." – Sal ([27:48])

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Important Timestamps

• 04:05: Setting up the core topic: building muscle and endurance at the same time.
• 09:09: Three programming options for concurrent goals.
• 11:11: "Best" way for non-competitive athletes – week-on/week-off method.
• 18:21: Nutritional priorities: high protein, high carb, anti-inflammatory focus.
• 23:38: The crucial role of sleep and injury risk.
• 28:37: Red light therapy twin study & science.
• 55:45: Naomi’s call: weight loss and maintenance strategy.
• 64:49: Jessica’s call: recover from setbacks, finding maintenance.
• 80:35: Matthew’s call: breaking cycles of inconsistency, leading family health.
• 100:12: Rachel’s call: overcoming exercise compulsion, fear of eating more.

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Language & Tone

As always, Mind Pump balances myth-busting, humor, and blunt but supportive coaching:

• "You want it all? You gotta pick your poison, because if you do it wrong you’ll get nothing."
• The hosts tease and riff but never minimize the real emotional/psychological challenges faced by listeners, especially around food and exercise relationships.
• Sal, Adam, and Justin regularly share personal anecdotes and digress into lively banter, but always steer back to relevant, actionable advice.

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Summary Takeaways

Can you be a bodybuilder AND run a marathon?

• Sort of: The most effective, science-backed approach for simultaneous muscle and endurance gains for non-competitive athletes is alternating dedicated blocks (weekly or bi-weekly) of strength and endurance focus.
• Prioritize specificity and match programming to your true primary goal—know you’ll always compromise somewhat.
• Nutrition must support performance: high protein, high carbs, more than maintenance calories—don’t chase fat loss during hybrid periods.
• Beginners should build strength base and metabolism first, then layer on endurance.
• Don’t neglect sleep, mobility, and lifestyle recovery.
• Consistency with a few clear nutrition rules (whole foods, protein target) can dramatically change outcomes, both for clients and their families.

For those worried about being stuck between two goals:

• Pick periods to focus; don’t chase maximums of both.
• Accept compromises and program accordingly.
• Prioritize health-promoting habits and let aesthetics or PRs be by-products.

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For Listeners

If you’ve ever wondered if you can have it all—bigger muscles AND marathon-level endurance—this episode will give you both the science and the practical, sustainable blueprint for making the most of hybrid fitness, all wrapped in the Mind Pump crew’s signature no-BS, supportive style.

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Episode contacts and promos:

• Instagram: @mindpumpmedia, @mindpumpsal, @mindpumpadam, @mindpumpjustin, @mindpumpdoug
• For questions: mplifecaller.com
• Training programs: mapsfitnessproducts.com (use code “newyear50”)
• Red light therapy: joovv.com/mindpump
• Protein & meat delivery: butcherbox.com/mindpump

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Transcript

[Adam]

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[Sal]

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[Doug]

Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer and Justin Andrews.

[Sal]

You just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode we had live callers call in and they wanted to get coached on air. So we helped them out with their health and fitness. But this was after the intro. Today's intro was 52 minutes long. In the intro we talk about muscle gain and fat loss and workouts and training and diet and current events and family life. It's always a good time. By the way, if you want to call in for us to coach you on air, send your question to mplifecaller.com this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. Today was sponsored by Butcherbox. So they deliver grass fed meats, wild caught fish, pork, chicken, high quality meats to your door at great prices. If you like protein, you like animal meats, but you like them to be healthy and you also like to save money. Go to butcherbox.com mindpump by the way, on that link, new users will get their choice of New York strip ribeye or filet mignon in every box included for free for an entire year. This episode is also brought to you by Juve. This is Red light Therapy. The kind that you find in the studies today. I talked about a study where they compared twins both doing the same workout. Everything was the same except one used red light therapy, the other one didn't. The Red Light Therapy twin built more muscle. So it also builds muscle. It's not just good for your skin. It doesn't just reduce wrinkles, it doesn't just reduce inflammation. It also builds muscle. And joovv is the red light therapy that works. There's a lot of companies out there with cheap red light therapy. Not nearly as strong or strong enough. Joovv is the right one. Go to joovv.com mindpump that's J-O-O-V.com forward/mindpump. Use the code mindpump. Get $50 off your first purchase. Also, we have a sale on four maps programs. All of them are 50% off right now. The code is New York New Year 50. Here's the programs on sale. Maps Starter maps transform, Maps anabolic and maps performance. All four of them 50% off. Go to maps fitnessproducts.com use the code newyear50 for the discount. Here comes the show.

[Adam]

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[Doug]

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[Adam]

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[Doug]

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[Sal]

All right, real quick.

[Justin]

If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs or training gear [e-mail] I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to my pumpstore.com. that's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Sal]

Become a bodybuilder and run a marathon. Is it possible? I don't know. Probably not. But you can definitely train to build a physique and get lots of endurance. This is a common question we get asked often. There's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Most people do it the wrong way. We're going to talk about the right way. You want strength, you want muscle, and you want lots of endurance. Here we go.

[Adam]

Now you mentioned it all. You mentioned a study not that long ago on the podcast was where they toggle back and forth.

[Sal]

Now, yes.

[Adam]

Was this new or that been like just an old study you'd reference?

[Sal]

There'd been. This was another study, but there's been a couple that have kind of echoed those results and you have some Coaches that have been utilizing the strategy and reporting better results. And to be quite honest with you, with our experience, you know, when I went over the. The details of the study, of the results, I'm sure you, like, I was. You guys are probably like, of course. Yeah, of course. Of course it works that way.

[Justin]

I mean, I've heard of coaches using this in their programming before, but, like, I haven't actually experimented.

[Adam]

Oh know. So, you know, people that have. This was like, so foreign to me. I thought it was really interesting.

[Sal]

Yes.

[Adam]

Never crossed my path to. To program this way. So I can't say I've taken a client through it. I haven't even taken myself through something like this. But it. I'm intrigued.

[Sal]

Yes. So let's. So. And there's some. There's some weaknesses to it. So we'll get to that. But. So there's. There's three main ways that you could. Or general ways that you could organize your training. If you're looking for building muscle and gaining lots of endurance, which are competing adaptations. Right. So lots of endurance. If you're trying to maximize that. The body doesn't want big muscles. It doesn't want muscles that utilize a lot of oxygen. The larger a muscle is the worst. The ratio of surface area to overall size. So it's harder to get nutrients and oxygen to the muscle. It's also heavier. And so larger muscles tend to produce less endurance. They're just not as good as that. Now, larger muscles are great for strength, though. Big muscle fibers contract harder. So you want more strength, more muscle, but you also want more endurance. Those are competing signals. And so this is why this can get really touchy. Because a lot of people are like, hey, I want all of it. And you got to be very careful with how you train for both of them, because you can actually get none of both. If you do it wrong. If you do it right, you'll get a decent amount of both. Now, I'm going to be very clear. You're not going to get the most muscle training for both or the most endurance training for both. But if you do it right, you'll get a decent amount.

[Justin]

Compromise still.

[Sal]

It's still a compromise no matter what.

[Adam]

Now this also clears up what the old theory was. That or how we used to communicate, you know, when you ran a lot, you ended up, like running for a marathon, that you would burn the muscle off. No, that's not what's happening. So it's not a matter of. Because I think some people think, well, if I just feed like Crazy. If I'll stop it. Yeah. If I eat more calories than I burn, then I can, I can still train like a marathon and keep all my muscle. But it's, it's not true. It's. You keep training endurance or training for a half marathon or a marathon, the body will pare down muscle. It'll get a loud enough signal that, hey, this person is trying to get really good at running. This is not efficient for us to have this, regardless of how well you're fed.

[Sal]

Yeah, I remember learning that years ago because I was, when I first became a trainer, that's what I thought. Right. I thought you burned.

[Adam]

I mean, I used to communicate that.

[Sal]

In my 20s, but that's not happening. In fact, if you look at the physiology of what it would require for your body to eat muscle up to get energy, it's actually the last thing it wants to do. But it is an adaptation. So you're asking your body to get really good at something. And so your body's going to try to change the way it looks or the way it functions to get good at that one thing. So it just pairs muscle down. Right. It doesn't burn it. So I'm glad you communicated that because it's true. Eating more calories and higher protein will reduce the muscle pair down. But that's not because you're burning the muscle. It's just you're, you're, you're giving your body, body more energy and being a deficit on top of all that. Not, not a good idea.

[Adam]

That'll exacerbate it. So if you're under calories and you're also doing all that running, it's like that's a recipe for.

[Sal]

Your two signals are saying get rid of muscle.

[Adam]

Right?

[Sal]

That's right. So there's a few, there's three general ways that you can organize. I say general because within what we're saying then that you get the specifics of programming. But there's three general ways you can organize your training. If you're looking for both endurance and let's say strength or muscle gains. Option one is you have your workouts and you're combining both in the workout and generally what it looks like is you do your lifting first and then you do your running at the end. Now you can flip flop those, but generally speaking, most coaches would identify that you'd want to do the strength stuff first and the endurance afterwards because it tends to work out better that way when you're doing them in the same workout.

[Adam]

Now let's talk about how within that one, this one way you would even modify that based off how the client says the goal. For example, I tell you that I care more about muscle, building muscle, but I'd like to have some good endurance. Like the training protocol you recommend me, I would imagine would be different than if I said, like, I really care about endurance, but I also want to keep some of this muscle that I worked. The amount of each you would do would change based off that. So totally. So in other words, like the, the person who really wants a lot of endurance and then just cares a little bit about keeping muscle. It might look like a Maps 15 Protoc with the rest of the hour being really focused on endurance training. And then maybe somebody who's like, I just want a little bit of endurance, but I care more about muscle. It might look more like a MAPS anabolic or a full routine with just maybe the last 15, 20 minutes.

[Sal]

Cardio.

[Adam]

Yeah, hit cardio towards it. Is that how you would structure that?

[Sal]

Yeah, yeah, generally speaking. But you know, you also want to consider that endurance requires a lot more volume than strength and muscle building as well. So generally speaking, what you said though is totally true. So that's like one way to do it, right? I do my lifting and then I go do some endurance. Some workouts combine all of it all at once. Terrible programming, CrossFit. But generally you separate them in the workout. So that's one option. The second option is some days are just lifting and some days are just endurance. This is a better way to train. Okay. You get better results this way. If instead of mixing them all in one workout, you know, Monday I lift, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday I run, Friday I lift or whatever kind of combination you do, but you don't do them all in the same workout. It's either strength or cardio.

[Justin]

Body responds best to specificity. Yes, it's always the case.

[Adam]

Now again, even now in this case, correct similar situation. Right. Like again, the client telling me, because they want both, but whichever one they, they're going to prioritize, I'm going to put less or more volume into the training. So it's like if I'm still toggling those days and I have somebody who's really focused on strength, the strength days would be like a full map Santa ball type of routine. And then maybe the, the endurance, a.

[Sal]

Day or two of endurance, right?

[Adam]

Day or two endurance and then, and then the reverse is true. I really want lots of endurance. So maybe it's only 15 minutes of training on the days that they lift, but Then you got an hour, hour long, three, four days out of the week are the cardio 100%.

[Sal]

And then there's option three. And this one produces the best overall strength and endurance. So it's actually superior for the physical adaptations of strength and endurance. But there is a caveat which I'll get to at the end. So this is what this looks like and this is interesting because this is a relatively new way of training when you're trying to build both and they have some studies. So this is superior. And what it looks like is one week you just lift one week you just focus on endurance and you toggle like that. So it's literally week on, week off, week on, week off where I'm only focusing on building muscle and then I'm only focusing on endurance. That seems to produce the best overall gains in both muscle and endurance. Now here's the weakness. And this is why athletes don't train this way. Because athletes need to practice their skills all the time. So you can't take an athlete who needs endurance and just have them practice their sport every other week. Although they may have more endurance, they're gonna lose the skill of their sport, which actually makes them less efficient, which actually produces worse outcomes. In other words, if you're a Jiu Jitsu fighter, I don't think you should lift one week, do Jiu Jitsu one week, lift one week, do Jiu Jitsu, you're better off doing Jiu Jitsu every single week because you need to practice the skill of it. But if you're looking just for strength and endurance, just general alternate every other week, it's okay.

[Adam]

So because, because the studies have shown that that's superior, this makes the most sense for gen pop, who's just kind of saying they want all of it.

[Sal]

That's right.

[Adam]

If I'm a, if I'm competing in Jiu Jitsu, I'm competing in basketball, I'm competing in football.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

This doesn't. This, this.

[Sal]

No, you got to play the sport.

[Adam]

Right. So that, that would trump it. Because my sport is that important. Totally. That that takes priority. But we talk to a lot of people that aren't the highly competitive about. They're more like the weekend warrior. I play basketball on the weekends here and there. Or I.

[Sal]

They want the physical attributes. Right.

[Adam]

So. And I don't want to lose that. And so that. Which is so interesting to me because the, the previous two I've, I've trained clients and, and done. I've never done the other way. But when I really think about the average person. I rarely got to get an athlete. I loved when I got to get an athlete, but it was really common. Yeah. It's rare that I got the semi pro or pro athlete who wanted to. That wanted to hire me and I got to train, you know, for a professional sport or that was really. Most of the people I trained were people that just like to play the sport and be decent at it. They wanted fitness, but they wanted to be healthy and fit. And so. And so I actually never did the superior way. And that's why I was asking if this was relatively new.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Justin]

To think about. Because, you know, even in the off season, you'll block it out. So you'll do just mainly focus on building up that strength and kind of moving them on to endurance is its own specific endeavor, like, for that, like, training block. But to have maybe another block where it's this hybrid, you know, week on, week off might be a cool way to do it.

[Sal]

Of course, your expert athlete programming mind went there because I think if you're an athlete, there's a. There's a great way to organize this.

[Justin]

There's a way to benefit.

[Sal]

But for someone listening right now is like, I want a lot of endurance and I want a lot of strength. And it's like, well, what sport? You know, it's not a sport. I just want both physical attributes. This is the way to train. Yeah. Is you alternate one week. One week. One week. One week. And you're going to get a lot of both. But, you know, back to what I said about the weakness, about practicing the skill. A lot of your lack of stamina. Yes. You need cardiovascular endurance. You need the physiological ways that your body expresses endurance or strength. But you'll lose efficiency if your skill is off, which will make you gas out faster. So a good example. I experienced this firsthand. I'll never forget this. I was training for the US Open in Jiu jitsu, and I was like four or five days a week, you could throw me in there. I could roll with five, six partners one after another. I had crazy stamina. Then I had a buddy who was a boxer, and he. And I'd like, yeah, I'd like to go do some training with you. And I went in the ring and I gassed out two rounds. I couldn't believe, like, how different it was. Different because I didn't have the skill. So every movement I did was so inefficient that I was just wasting energy because of lack of skill. So if you're an Athlete, this isn't the way to train. But if you want endurance and strength and you're like, I'm hybrid, like, try this out. It works. The, the data is really interesting.

[Adam]

Now I think generally speaking this is a great tip, but do you, do you guys find that the, when you're going after two separate adaptations like this, do you think there's a more of a skill and art to how you apply it? In other words, someone who's just going for general strength or general whatever, which I think we, you see a lot of mistakes. The way they apply intensity, the way they apply volume, does that get overly complex when you now have two adaptations that you're trying to toggle back and forth for? I would think yes.

[Sal]

Yeah, I, I think too the big thing to consider is a lot of people consider programming with strength training, or at least they should. But I think more people know that strength training requires some programming. Right. When it comes to endurance, people just like, I just gotta go until I'm tired.

[Justin]

Yeah. It's not just about getting fatigued and sweating.

[Sal]

So you would approach it with programming. And if you're a beginner, you know, your lifting needs to be practice. And then if you do the week of, let's say running, it also needs to be practice.

[Justin]

Well, yeah, I mean, are we talking about getting improving speed, Are we just improving your durability and your mechanics? Like, yeah, you have to be a lot more specific with your endurance.

[Sal]

So like what I would do, let's say this to say I wanted to do this right. I got great skill with strength training, no problem. Endurance definitely should work on that. But you know, running, if I were to start running, it would take me six months just to get good biomechanics before I could really push running. If I'm being smart, right. Otherwise I'll hurt myself. So what I would do if I just wanted endurance and didn't want that six months of ramp up of skill is I would use a bike, you know, I'd get on a salt bike and it requires very little skill and I would just test and you know, strengthen my endurance like that. I have hard days, easier days, long, you know, longer days or days that are more intense. On that week of endurance, that's what I would do to try to build both.

[Adam]

Yeah, it's interesting. So I played around with this not that long ago, and mine looked more like I was walking on the treadmill. And then every couple minutes do like a little 15, 15 second, maybe 32nd, like I wouldn't even call it A sprint. It was like, I don't know if I go. Yeah, it was like a trot. Exactly. But what, what it really was. And seriously, like in, I mean, I think off air, I was joking with you guys just because how, how long I've been. So I'd done something like that. Like it was, I was actually just thinking about my mechanics. Yeah, I could have ran faster. I know I could have ran faster. Right. I could have beyond that, but I knew I hadn't done compromise. Yeah. So it was, it was literally walking at like a three and a half speed and then I'd ramp it up to like a five or a six where I'm like, I was literally thinking about how my foot was hitting the ground, how I was running on my chest. What like just trying to practice that 30 seconds and I go back to a walk. And then we kept doing that for a good like 30, 45 minutes.

[Sal]

Now there are some consistence with this, consistencies with this one in regards to other aspects like diet and lifestyle. Because this is a performance based kind of, you know, protocol. Right. You're looking for strength, you're looking for endurance.

[Adam]

High calorie diet.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

So high calorie, high protein.

[Sal]

It's high protein, high carb. So this low carb is not going to work well. You don't get the best strength with low carb. You definitely don't get the best endurance with low carb. So high protein, high carbohydrates. And I think it's very important to time your eating around your workouts. Especially on the endurance days, it's very wise to eat an hour before two with a decent meal and then afterwards to replenish glycogen, maybe help with recovery a little bit. So that's really important. And then for inflammation, especially if this is new to you, you want to have fish three days a week or take on a daily basis. High EPA fish oil makes a big difference for inflammation.

[Adam]

Now I think the biggest mistake that is made and we kind of, we touched on it before, but just want to highlight it since you're going back on the diet again that people make is because a lot of times I'll hear this like, I want to build muscle, I want to get strong, I want to have some sort of endurance and be healthy, but I also want to lose body fat. And so a lot of people will, will do this in a low, in a deficit. And this is like such a mistake.

[Sal]

Because no, you're either trying to lose fat or you're trying to maximize Performance. Stop trying to do both.

[Adam]

Right.

[Sal]

That's just crazy.

[Adam]

And, and trying to do that in this situation is a recipe for like getting the worst of both things. Right. Like, you know, in a calorie deficit, you're not going to end up building any muscle from the strength training you're doing. You're gonna, you're running endurance. You might see, get a little bit of stamina while you do it, but you're going to lose a bunch of muscle along the way while you do that. And so this person ends up maybe losing weight on the scale, but then they lose an equal amount of muscles, they lose body fat, and so they don't put themselves in any healthier position because they're trying to obtain.

[Justin]

And you can be fighting fatigue the whole time you're performing, which then too is going to compromise your mechanics and leave you susceptible for potential injuries.

[Sal]

Yeah, and I'll say I'll go back to diet. Like the high protein. It's funny, I was having this conversation with my brother in law. He does jiu jitsu pretty regularly. Let me think, how old is he now? So he just turned 40 and he's, you know, relatively competitive and he's always talking about how his body hurts and he's tired. I've been preaching to him about high protein. Now he's like, that's for bodybuilders. I'm just trying to jiu jitsu. I'm like, no, dude, it'll help you with your recovery, with your pain with Jiu jitsu. And he's like, it's so hard to eat protein. All the excuses. So, so finally he started to do it consistently. So we're on day seven. This is one week. Yeah. He sends me a text this morning. He's like, I don't know if it's a placebo. I've got way more energy and I'm way stronger. I think I'm seeing my abs all of a sudden. I'm like. So I sent them this long text afterwards. I'm like, well, let's see all the data. Plus, one of the top fitness podcasters in the world, who you're related to has been telling you to do this. I don't think it's placebo, bro, but he's reporting back, you know, really good results from this. And I think a lot of times people who are athletic or endurance based don't think the high protein benefits them as well. Yeah, it does. It's not just for building muscle. It's good for recovery. Makes a big difference One of the things he's done to help, he's taken a shake once a day. But he's also now planning his meals. This is where he would mess up is he wasn't, you know, meal prepping and structuring and you know, doing his meals. I was talking to him about using Butcherbox because it makes it so easy. You get your meat, you prep once a week. And then the fatty acid profile from the grass fed meat, especially for inflammation.

[Adam]

For that reason alone, I would think that would be better for him too, because he's rolling around. He's probably dealing with a lot of inflammation going on too.

[Sal]

Totally, totally. And I've experimented with grain fed for a while and then grass fed and finished for a while. There's a big difference in how my body feels. Yeah. From the, from the fatty acid profile.

[Adam]

Well, we just had a caller recently that was talking about their cholesterol levels and that was like one of the first pieces of advice that you gave was to, you know, go fish. And then if you eat red meat, go to grass fed because it makes that big.

[Sal]

Well, you go. If you, you, you also just drop your fat intake. You go 8 ounces of traditional ribeye versus 8 ounces of grass fed grass finished ribeye, same size. The grass fed is higher protein and lower fat. And then the fat that you get in it is a better fatty acid profile for inflammation. So it's like just across the board, it's better. And then lifestyle stuff. Right. Good sleep. This has got to be consistent. Mobility is key when you're doing, when you're training for multiple adaptations because if you don't focus on mobility, injury risk is high. So mobility and then deep stretching can help a lot. Right before bed, it's really, really good to kind of get your body into that parasympathetic state.

[Adam]

Well, and then recovery and sleep is so important with all this stuff. I mean, that's just like I, I can't stress enough what a difference it is. I feel like it's, it's so close to home for me right now because I've been lacking sleep and I just. You can't get away with it. Like the training, even my training volume and intensity right now has to stay. Even though I feel good and I'm feeling stronger, it's. I have to continue to hold back because I'm tracking sleep right now and sleep is just not optimal. And I feel like that's always been a recipe for getting sick for me or just, or getting hurt is thinking I feel good. In the gym and pushing it. And then also paired with not good sleep is just.

[Sal]

You know what's crazy about that. I've talked about this before, but this. The studies on sleep are crazy. If you get poor sleep, your risk of injury the next day, there's nothing will increase your risk of injury more than lack of sleep. Like warm ups, you could like. All that stuff's great. If you just get a crappy night of sleep and then you go work out. Yeah. The risk of injury skyrockets.

[Justin]

It's crazy.

[Sal]

It's so wild.

[Adam]

It's so hard too, because, like, right now, I'm in a good rhythm right now. And so when you get in that, you know, we all know what this is like, when you get in that good rhythm and you're feeling good and you feel like you're getting stronger. And there's like so much of me wants to like, push. Yeah, I like that feeling when I'm training and stuff like that. And so. But this has been one of my favorite things, just about tracking sleep. Like, I know Doug is probably out of all of us, I think probably the most consistent. I've been really consistent with really monitoring and paying attention. And if. If you do that, I mean, that is where that injury comes in and. Or getting sick. I. I don't know. Those are the two things that I always notice. I always notice. I either overdo it, end up getting. Getting hurt, or I end up getting sick when I'm like.

[Sal]

That destroys your immune system.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And I'm glad you guys bringing up sleep and. And mobility. It's like it to. To me, like adding two different variables, two different adaptations you're focused on at the same time. It's like there's this added a bit of stimulus. Your body, like, is naturally trying to protect itself. And so now you're adding in all of a sudden, I'm abruptly shifting the way that I'm operating the next week. And it's like to not, you know, account for that with extra sleep, with. With more mobility priming ahead of time to really get everything to fire and sequence correctly. You know, you're overloading the system. And so, like, there'll be times where you're gonna cramp, you're gonna get, you know, a lot of these, like muscle aches and soreness. And a lot of these things are gonna occur when you're putting that kind of demand on the body.

[Adam]

So, okay, so you're bringing that up. And this is how I was thinking the same way too. I want to counter Your tip?

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

Just the fact that if, if you take yourself back to the, the, the average client that all of us have trained, that, that asks for something like that, even though, you know, the studies point to that, I would think that because it's. I, at least I would, I still would push my client in the direction of. Let's get really strong right now. Let's build your metabolism and then let's really focus in that direction and then we'll go after the endurance piece that you want.

[Sal]

You build a base. Yeah, of course.

[Adam]

Right. And so I just want to.

[Sal]

Absolutely.

[Adam]

I just want to make that clear.

[Sal]

That if you're just getting started, like. Yeah, yeah, build. Build your strength first.

[Adam]

Yeah, like that, like this tip makes sense. Somebody who is.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Sal]

You're working out already.

[Adam]

Yeah, yeah. Metabol, healthy eats a good amount of calories, good muscle, and then it's like they're trying to obtain this next level. But let's be honest, we're mostly talking to people that are on and off the wagon or just getting started or general pop. And with that person even knowing what the studies say.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

I would still recommend that client is like, hey, let's really focus on a reverse diet. Building muscle, building your metabolism, laying a good base.

[Sal]

You know, it's funny about what you're saying. You take a total beginner, you know how much endurance they gain just from building.

[Adam]

Just from lifting weights in the beginning. Yeah.

[Sal]

Max goes everything.

[Adam]

Lifting weights will already start to do that. Increasing reps, it's already difficult enough for them to hit protein intake on a consistent basis. So I'm gonna. Even knowing what you just went over, I'm still focused on convincing them that, listen, we're gonna get both, but we're gonna mainly focus right now on building strength, building your metabolism. And then when we got ourselves ramped up calorie wise, you're feeling strong, then we're going to start to include this, like endurance training. And this is what it might look like.

[Sal]

Yeah. If I had a total beginner, barring any major injuries or any of that stuff, it would probably look like six months of just strength training, correctional exercise. And then after that, then we start incorporating stuff like this.

[Adam]

Exactly. Okay, cool. I just want to make that because I feel like for, I mean, we're in January, right. So we're in the, we're in the new year right now. A lot of people are probably coming off either a layoff or this is a New Year's resolution getting started. They're like, yes, that's me. I want to, I want to build endurance and, and I also want to get strong. And it's like, yeah, but you're still better off following like a very traditional strength training program. Increasing your protein intake, building your metabolism, laying a good foundation. And then we play with things like this 100.

[Sal]

That's speaking of building muscle. I might have brought this study up before, but I read it again and it just blows me away because there's very few biohacking tools that actually make a big difference. But red light therapy, known as photo bio modulation. There was a two. There's a lot of studies by the way. Like in fact they did, they did a review of 10 studies, like a meta analysis showing that it definitely builds muscle and increases strength. But there's one study in particular that I really like where they took identical twins. They trained them the same. The only difference was one twin did the red light therapy post workout. The other twin didn't. Was there a difference in muscle gains? There was. The twin that did the red light therapy built more muscle. Measurable muscle.

[Justin]

Your ultimate case study, right?

[Sal]

This was 12 weeks.

[Justin]

Twins.

[Sal]

Yeah, this is 12 weeks.

[Adam]

So. And what that highlights because what I think when people hear you say that red light therapy is not building them up, it's what's, it's recovering faster. Right? I mean that's what's happening. It's mitochondrial health. So.

[Sal]

Well, here's where it gets crazy, bro. They've done this with people who don't, they don't have them strength trained at all. They just test their strength beginning and then they test it at the end. Red light therapy builds a little bit of strength.

[Adam]

Well, that's weird.

[Sal]

It's, it's, it's, it seems, I mean it's like testosterone.

[Justin]

It seems to trigger cranks your output a bit.

[Sal]

Yeah, dude, those. Now the gains are more when you.

[Adam]

Add and, but again though that's just because it's just overall mitochondrial health. Right. If you improve that for 12 cells.

[Sal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam]

So they're going to be more efficient, fire better.

[Sal]

So like if I'm like a, if I'm listening to this and I'm, I got time on my hands and I'm like, you know, super into building muscle. I would like, I would do it on the body parts I just trained.

[Adam]

I sit back, I just know why somebody hasn't invented to figure this. I would, I would, I want to build a shower. That's why. Because my, I'm. The hardest part for me is just taking the time out of it. And I Know that sounds so. Whatever. Some people are great, okay. But I.

[Sal]

It's.

[Adam]

It's. I struggle with the supplements all the time. I struggle with getting over in front of the red light therapy and sitting there for 15, 20. But if my shower lit up, you're already there for. Yes, I'm taking two showers a day, every day, minimum. Sometimes three. So I'm.

[Sal]

I'm gonna take three showers.

[Adam]

Yes, absolutely. First thing in the morning.

[Sal]

What?

[Adam]

That's not a lot first thing. Doug, dare you with me, Doug?

[Doug]

No, not that many.

[Adam]

Sometimes two, but yeah, that's always two. That's first thing in the morning. Get up. And then before I get in my bed, I cannot get into bed dirty, bro.

[Sal]

You work in the studio. Where are you getting dirty?

[Adam]

Doesn't matter. I feel oily dirty. You know, this. Whatever. Like, people hugging me. They got cologne on this. Get off me. That's. I cannot get in. I cannot get in a bed without doing that's minimum. And then if I have my workout in the middle day, I'm showering after that too.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

What do you guys. Once every other day or something?

[Justin]

No.

[Sal]

Once a day, huh? Once a day.

[Adam]

I don't know if I believe you. Wow, that oily skin over there is probably.

[Sal]

It's nice.

[Justin]

Good bacteria.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Sal]

Today is enough, dude. So I'm also soap up your whole body.

[Adam]

No, I don't.

[Sal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam]

No, I don't do that. Listen, I got. I got caldera too, that I'm using. So I got the good. I got the right stuff, so I'm good on that.

[Sal]

You used to soap. Remember you told me once.

[Adam]

Once a day. I scrub once a day.

[Sal]

So you do wash everything with soap? Yeah, everything. Yeah.

[Adam]

Well, I mean, pretty much everything. Yeah.

[Sal]

Yeah. Oh, my God. I mean, you're killing your fan.

[Adam]

I shouldn't be without like a caldera, stuff like that. I'm not. I'm not using any of that.

[Sal]

So the.

[Adam]

The crest or safeguard or whatever the crazy chemical.

[Sal]

He just made up two soaps, bro.

[Adam]

No, safeguard is a brand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal]

I know.

[Adam]

You know.

[Sal]

Hey, you know what's so just 100 Irish. Irish. Irish Spring. Yeah. Used to use that.

[Justin]

Cut it with it.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Sal]

40. 40 bars for a dollar. Hey, why was that. Why was that such a good commercial where they cut the soap with a knife?

[Justin]

I don't know. That makes sense to me though. It's like. It's just like how old men, like, eat bananas, you know? It's like, hell, no, I'm not like sucking on this Banana.

[Sal]

Hey, let's chop it up. You'd never.

[Adam]

Is that what it is?

[Justin]

Like.

[Sal]

Oh, so the only time you'll eat a banana just like that is that no one's around. Okay. Otherwise. Otherwise, you get to take a butter knife. Yeah, you better get a knife, dude. Cut the slices off.

[Adam]

But I mean, if the real ones know if Juve created something that, like, you. You could mount, like, above.

[Sal]

I don't know if it could get wet. That might be the issue. Yeah, there's.

[Adam]

Come on. There's ways to work around that. You put some sort of a clear. Clear film or something like that to protect that.

[Sal]

Mr. Opt. Just, you know, and make everything look the way you want it in your house.

[Adam]

I mean, trust me, I thought about it. I thought about actually doing so when I. I didn't. Of all the places I remodeled, I didn't remodel our. Our bathroom. And so I've told Katrina. I said, when we remodel this. Oh, by the way of another one that I'm doing. You're gonna like this, because I know you're. You're shopping right now, so. You know what I got for Christmas? What'd you get that? I just. Katrina got this. Wouldn't even have thought of this. But now I want to build a custom one. I have, like, a little portable one right now, a towel warmer, and it does the aromatherapy, and it heats. Heats my towel up when I get out of the shower.

[Sal]

Buddy. Dude. Huh? Justin, I just looked at each other. This guy goes too far.

[Adam]

Well, I. Justin probably drives paper towels, dude. Three showers. Super rugged.

[Sal]

Super rugged.

[Adam]

Or just a towel. He washes once a year.

[Sal]

Shop towels.

[Adam]

Yeah, he's got, like, shops.

[Sal]

Cut it.

[Adam]

Down like a layer sham.

[Matthew]

Wow.

[Sal]

Is what he probably uses. I know. I.

[Adam]

No, it's.

[Sal]

It's awesome.

[Adam]

You put it in there. It has, like. And it heats it up. It's all steamy.

[Sal]

It smells.

[Adam]

You know, like when you go to, like, a nice. Like.

[Sal]

No, you're not. I'm not connecting to anything you're saying right now.

[Adam]

Yeah, I know you do the steam rooms. The steam rooms got stuff like that.

[Sal]

Warm, you know.

[Adam]

Oh, listen. You do it one time, and I mean, I guess if you don't really shower hardly ever, it's not that big of a deal. If you shower, it was. It's cool.

[Sal]

Where you're getting scented towels.

[Adam]

No, no, no, no.

[Sal]

You.

[Adam]

The. The.

[Sal]

You can.

[Adam]

You can put whatever you want. Lavender or whatever. You just drop it on the.

[Sal]

In your bathroom.

[Adam]

No.

[Sal]

Okay. No, no, no. You used to.

[Adam]

Well, we have that. What's that? The pour. Yes, that's what. Yeah.

[Sal]

What? Doug knows.

[Adam]

What's up.

[Sal]

What's it called?

[Doug]

It's called Poo Pour.

[Adam]

Oh, yeah.

[Sal]

Just a spray.

[Adam]

That is magical, by the way.

[Justin]

Yeah, actually, yeah, I buy that stuff.

[Sal]

Do we have it at the House of Trekkie? Yes, I think we do.

[Adam]

Yeah, we do.

[Sal]

You spray the water. Yes, and it covers the water in, like, a barrier of work. It works. It does work.

[Justin]

It hunches the smell down.

[Adam]

It's just probably one of the better inventions that I've ever. I've ever.

[Sal]

I love it. Yeah, I actually.

[Adam]

That's a Katrina. She. I'd never heard of that or seen that before. She introduced that to me, and I was just like. I didn't even know.

[Justin]

This is like.

[Adam]

Because all the other, like, aerosol BS that does it just makes it, like, farts and aerosol together. It's like. It's like double.

[Sal]

Yeah, it's like.

[Adam]

This doesn't work, but the toilet seals it. It does. It has, like. It, like, it has some sort.

[Sal]

Unless it comes out of the water. Then you're. Then.

[Adam]

Yeah, Sorry.

[Justin]

All right, guys.

[Sal]

All right, Doug, I'll change subjects. I'll change subject.

[Adam]

Hey, listen, towel warmer, though. You'll appreciate that.

[Doug]

No, I saw those at Costco, actually.

[Adam]

Oh. I think that's probably where she got it. Yeah. And I'm telling you, I would have never. It wasn't even on my list. I didn't think nothing of it when I. When I opened it up, like, what is this? And then I'm like, okay, I could.

[Sal]

Do you guys have warm toilet seats, too? No, you don't do that. Yeah, I heard about those. Yeah, they're great.

[Doug]

They're common in Japan.

[Sal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug]

Because their bathrooms are very cold.

[Adam]

Well, my. My downstairs bathroom, the heater vet, is right next to it. So that seat's always.

[Sal]

Always warm in the morning. So it is like a nice. I'm down with that for sure. All right, I got to talk about. Do you guys hear about these daycare fraud centers in Somalia?

[Adam]

The Somalia thing?

[Sal]

Yeah. They're not Somalia. They call them Somalia because they're immigrants. In. What state is Minnesota? Is it Minnesota? Did you guys hear about this?

[Adam]

I did. I saw the clip. Okay, So I heard. I don't know if this is so much money. So some. Some YouTuber 150 million or something. Some. Some YouTuber figured it out, and then they started digging, and they started finding. There's bunches of. A bunch of them. And they're all like a million and a half, 2 million, $4 million of taxpayer money. And they don't even. They're not real.

[Justin]

They're direct to the daycare centers and like, asking where the kids are. There's like, nobody, bro.

[Sal]

They're doing these investigations. They're finding people. These are Somali immigrants that go in. They set up these fake daycares. There's no kids in there, and they're just collecting money from the state. And they would leave with a million dollars of cash in their suitcases and bring it back home. A million dollars in cash. They also found huge scams where the. They were apply. They were registering their kids as having autism to collect more money from the state. So when you see like the autism rates in Minnesota exploded over like five years, they went investigating. These kids don't have autism, but they're just real easy apparently, to collect this, this, this money.

[Adam]

There's a hundreds of millions of dollars fraud everywhere. There's a special place in hell for people.

[Sal]

Like, this is crazy.

[Adam]

That's bad.

[Sal]

That's crazy. And there was a guy that went into some of these daycares because he's like. He's like, uncovering it. He walks in, it's empty.

[Adam]

Yeah, there's kid money. That's right. I saw. I saw that. It was like some YouTuber that figured it out. And then he brought a bunch of people involved. They pulled all the stuff up and there's. They were all over the place.

[Sal]

It's crazy.

[Adam]

I mean, how does that even. How does that happen? Like, how do you get away with that?

[Justin]

From the top.

[Sal]

Yeah, dude.

[Adam]

Yeah. That's. That's how I feel. That's my. That's my investigating. That's my point of asking. It's like, that's not like. Like somebody can't just put together that.

[Justin]

It's not like an oversight.

[Adam]

There's got to be. There's going to be somebody up there that's like pushing that.

[Sal]

It's either extreme, extreme negligence or there's like more fraud that goes up to the top.

[Doug]

So these are daycares. You would think there'd be like, inspections.

[Adam]

Well, that's what I'm saying. That's why there has to be. There has to be somebody. And for that many to get away with it. It's not like one. Yeah, one was found. A hustle figured out.

[Justin]

It's like California, too.

[Adam]

Tons are happening that has to go through some sort of like, regulations or something. And somebody has to be just stamping that, pushing it through and you know what's going, and you're making some sort of a kick. There's no way, right?

[Sal]

Yeah. And it's crazy because how much. And this is. This is like, hard earned. This is people's tax money. So they're spending money on taxes. They're not getting good services. The city's got crime, you know, pothole, whatever. Meanwhile, hundreds of millions of dollars are just. Just getting doled out to people doing nothing.

[Justin]

This is the stuff I have to walk out because I'm just like. It just makes me angry because I'm like, okay, so when are the arrests happening? When were people going to prison for this? And then you don't see anything happen. You're like.

[Adam]

Which also makes you believe that it's. It's higher up, covered up.

[Sal]

It's.

[Adam]

It's like. I feel like if it was, like one evil person doing it, it would be. It would be all over the place. It'd make the news, and there'd be like this whole big, big arrest, and it'd be a big case.

[Justin]

We saved millions of care, dude. That's what I'm crazy.

[Sal]

Crazy. There was. There was a study that came out on ADHD medications to see with fmri, you know, technology to see what's happening in the brain. And so what they're finding with ADHD medication is it's not working the way they thought. So what they thought that they were doing was it was literally helping the focus centers of the brain. So the brain. The centers of the brain that help you focus, they're like, when we do these FMRI studies, we should be able to see those light up and become more active. And that's not what happened. What they're finding is it's lighting up the pleasure and reward centers of the brain. So what it does is it just makes whatever you're doing more pleasurable. So something that's boring, suddenly you're like, it's not as boring, and therefore you want to do it more. But that has really bad implications because you're messing with the reward centers of the brain.

[Adam]

So now we're starting to agree that giving kids meth was not a good idea.

[Sal]

I like it when you say it like that.

[Adam]

Well, I mean, I feel like this will be the. Remember, when we look back at those old ads, it was like in the 50s, or was it before, where it was like, you know, for cocaine, for your wife? You know what I'm saying? It's like all those.

[Sal]

No, that was. Those were amphetamines they were amphetamines back then.

[Adam]

I feel like we're going to have, like, we'll look back in 20, 30 years about the stuff that we did with that.

[Sal]

It's just.

[Adam]

It's crazy.

[Sal]

It is.

[Adam]

It is crazy. I didn't know how bad it was. It was. I wasn't until I was 30 before I even tried one of those pills. Before I knew, no idea what that was like. And I know it was the lowest dose that they prescribed. And I. The. The feeling that I had.

[Sal]

And kids take more.

[Adam]

Yes. Like four or five times more.

[Sal]

I know.

[Adam]

And I told you this about my. My godson is that they. They want, like, these doctors are so quick to do that. Kids. You got a kid who is, you know, rambunctious, loves to play sports. He's, like, active like that. And they have a hard time with getting him to settle down in school. And it's just like, oh, here's. Here's what we give him.

[Sal]

It's because it get. It produces what. It produces results. So what's the result you're looking for? I want my kid to sit still and get better grades. Y. And that'll probably do that.

[Adam]

Put a term into a zombie.

[Sal]

But are you making him a better kid? Are you? What's actually happening? And then how does the brain model and mold itself? Because as a child, your brain's shaping still. It's still growing. And so when you're hammering the reward centers, it'll mold itself because of this. And could you have lasting, long lasting changes? And you know what? It's like, it's not that different because I could bring up old medical procedures that sound so barbaric, but they did them because they also produce results. Lobotomy is a good example. You know what lobotomy is? So you would have, let's say a schizophrenic patient cut out a part of the brain, Right. They would go in, they cut out a little piece of the brain. And then this crazy person suddenly became docile and calm and would do what you asked them to do and could come into just to society. And so it was like this medical breakthrough that they would promote. There's ads. You can look up the ads. Yeah, these old ads are like, you know, hey, you know, and they would show before and after. In some of these pictures, here's this crazy woman, and then right after the lobotomy, and she looks all calm and docile, like, oh, this is a miracle. Yeah, crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.

[Adam]

I mean, I What I think is as, you know, it's not as crazy, but. And been talking about this for a long time. I've been talking about it since you guys were making fun of me when I was talking about the book Irresistible. And I've seen, I've been. I see now clips. I'm seeing it all over the Internet now. People sharing, like these kids that are, they're taking their iPads away from them and just losing their minds. Losing their minds. Dude, I had throwing stools and screaming.

[Sal]

Can I tell you what happened?

[Adam]

I saw videos of kids like laying there without it and like doing this with their hands.

[Sal]

Can I tell you what, what happened to my son? So my niece is staying with us now and she's an adult. She's 18 years old and she plays four Fortnite sometimes and we're all together and she's like, hey, can we put the, can we put Fortnite on the big TV out here and maybe we could, you know, play a little bit? That's not a. Let's give it a shot. So she put it out there and my 4 year old is like, hey, can I try? So we're like, sure, what's the big deal? We're all watching. So he played Fortnite and he was playing for, I don't know, 30 minutes maybe. Maybe 30 minutes. We tried to take him off through a tantrum.

[Adam]

Yeah, he doesn't do that.

[Sal]

He doesn't do that anymore. Threw a freaking tantrum. And my wife and I looked at each other. We're like, this is never again. Never again. Yep. Now to contrast that, we were at my cousin's house and my cousin has an old arcade system with old games from the 90s.

[Adam]

I've told you about this.

[Sal]

Still fun and entertaining. Yep. And he still likes it. He was up there playing or whatever. And I went up there, hey, five more minutes, buddy, and we'll take you off. No problem. If these, they're so engineered.

[Adam]

I told you that with, with Max, with the Nintendo, it's. I mean, I, I have that. Like, he hasn't asked me to play that in a year.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

Like, he's like, so. I mean, he'll. If I coerced him to come up and play with me, he'll play with me and watch and do it a little bit like that. But like at any moment in the middle of the game, I could stop him, like, oh, yeah. Go down and eat and like, okay. And walk away from it. You let them get in front of all these iPad cartoons. You Let them get in front of one of these games that they've created on there. Like they get sucked into that. And you're. But what my point of bringing that up though is I'm now seeing more people finally talking about it. I mean we've been, we've been talking about this on the podcast for eight, eight, eight years or so now. And it's, it's become more and more apparent to like a lot of these parents what's happening. And so now you're starting to see people come out and counter a lot of it. So it'd be interesting, it's going to be interesting to see how we regulate that in the next like couple years. If you're going to see less and less schools adopt it. More and more parents we like no and say no to it because it's wild man to watch like how some of these kids act when you, when you pull it away from crazy Doug.

[Sal]

Maybe you could look this up. I thought I saw a study that showed look up brain changes from, from reels study. If I'm not mistaken, they did a study on people who looked at reels. You know you can scroll through reels real quick. Yeah. And they showed some pretty well some not good results. Almost like brain damage kind of results from people use just scrolling through reels all the time. Maybe find that Doug, see if there's a study on that. Look up brain changes and reels.

[Doug]

Yeah, I found, I found something here.

[Sal]

You found it. Let's. Yeah. Pull up an article and see because I saw some, I saw some memes and you know, they're sometimes they're not accurate.

[Adam]

Remember when we had the guy on the show who tried to defend it after. Remember, like forget who's like a lobbyist for.

[Sal]

Wow. Look at studies suggest that heavy consumption of short form videos so reels lead to brain changes like reduced attention, impaired focus and weaker cognitive control. By training the brain to. For fast, shallow input impacting deeper thinking and rewarding instant gratification via dopamine loops.

[Justin]

Yeah, that's.

[Adam]

Can you copy and paste that and send that to our group chat for me? Yeah, I've just, I've been trying to really convince my, my, my buddies that are like not well.

[Sal]

It's alluring if you're like busy and it keeps your kid, you know? You know?

[Adam]

Yeah, no, I get that. No, I, I get that. It's a, it's like it's an incredible babysitter because it sucks the kids in. I mean you, you want the kids to be quiet. And do that. But it's like, I mean to your point, like want to, if you just want to give them a drug to also put them out like that, like you're speak. And I think why we as a society are justifying is because it isn't some pharmaceutical that we're giving there. But I think it similar effects.

[Rachel]

But.

[Adam]

Right, but to think that it hasn't been engineered to do similar effects in the brain is, is crazy to not think that and, and, and not understand. And then also like man, we're still in the beginning phases of this. Like we're only like I, I mean we're now approaching what, 20 years, the iPhone. What are we at right now? We're coming up on 20.

[Sal]

I think so.

[Adam]

So we're somewhere around there. I mean we're on iPhone 15 right now. Right.

[Sal]

So we're 17.

[Adam]

Is it?

[Sal]

I think so, yeah.

[Doug]

I think it's.

[Adam]

Oh, is it? Yeah. So we're coming up on 20, 20 years of that. But then, and then Instagram was what maybe right behind that or whatever like that and then tick tock. Right behind that. So we really haven't seen like a full generation of people that have like completely. It's just now. Yeah, it's just starting to happen right now. And then what those people look like as 30 year old adults and stuff, you know?

[Doug]

Yeah, almost 19 years.

[Sal]

19 years. That's crazy. Yeah. Anyway, I got a supplement that I added to my. Add more supplements to my regime. But I saw a study, a long study was an. It was a year long study on nattokinase. I think I'm saying that right. Am I saying that right, Doug?

[Doug]

Maybe it's nattokinase.

[Sal]

Nattokinase, okay. Possibly incredible. Heart health benefits, blood vessel benefits.

[Adam]

Where do you find it?

[Sal]

Oh, it's a very common supplement. Where does it find? Found naturally. I know the Japanese natto, which is.

[Doug]

A Japanese fermented bean.

[Sal]

There it is. Yeah. So. And it's. It's good for the blood. It's good for blood vessel health and heart health. Significant changes they saw in a year. Improvements in people's heart health from nattoka.

[Adam]

Now is this only found in Japanese beans or is this like in the regular beans?

[Sal]

It comes from that.

[Adam]

We don't see it in other beans.

[Sal]

I don't think so.

[Doug]

I'm not aware of it.

[Sal]

See where it comes from, Doug, See if there's other places. But I added it to my, my regime because of the heart health benefits on it were just profound and many other studies so it's really interesting, which. Which leads me to. I got a bone to pick with you guys. Okay. That. Yeah, so we all did that. That full body mri.

[Justin]

Yeah, Here we go.

[Sal]

Well, yeah, so we all did a full. There's a full body MRI we did that looks at everything. It looks at every organ. It looks at every system.

[Adam]

Your spine, cardiovascular, reproductive system, neuro.

[Sal]

Crazy Neuro. Stomach. So these guys. So get. We got our results. Right. So I think it was Doug first.

[Adam]

All of us paranoid as.

[Sal]

So. Yeah, dude, how would you feel right before you pulled up your results?

[Adam]

I was nervous, as you know. Yeah. I mean, because that's. They're. They would you say 1 in 20, they find something.

[Sal]

They find something. That they catch something early. Right. Right. Yeah.

[Adam]

And. And they're. And they. They remind me too, like, they could see, like, cancers, like, how far before.

[Sal]

You'Ll get stage one. Yeah. And then you go. You just do further investigation and. Okay. So the good thing about this is, you know, most cancers are very treatable if you catch them really early. The problem with a lot of cancers, you don't get symptoms until they're stage four.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Sal]

And that's a problem. So anyway, it's really. And those. Look at your heart. You have heart enlargement, prostate size. They'll look at, you know, your spine, your discs, you know, and all that stuff. So it's really, really. It's really incredible. So anyway, Doug senses first. Hey, guys.

[Adam]

I'm good.

[Sal]

You know, everything's clear. Adam next, us. And so I'm like, I'm gonna have fun with you guys. So I sent a reply and said, hey, I'll have to talk to you guys at work Monday. And I waited. I waited for one of you guys to care. Nobody cared.

[Doug]

We know your method.

[Sal]

Nobody called me. Nobody was like, what did you see? I wait. I told Jessica. I'm like, watch this. I knew that.

[Adam]

I knew that.

[Doug]

I knew he's baiting us.

[Adam]

All of us knew we were getting baited. Nothing. We know you that well.

[Sal]

Talk about first.

[Adam]

This dude was refreshing his email first. You're the biggest hyperchondriac out of all of us.

[Sal]

You for sure.

[Adam]

You probably already called the doctor, like, hey, I just want to double check. Is everything okay with me?

[Justin]

So, like, if anything, he's obsessing over something that's small.

[Sal]

Yeah. You know, I'm like, I'll just let.

[Justin]

Him work this out over the weekend.

[Sal]

And we'll talk about. Hey. Literally, I told Jessica, like, watch this. Waited. Nothing.

[Adam]

I was really surprised.

[Sal]

So Came to work, nobody cared.

[Adam]

So what's cool. What's cool is they have like, like levels to it. Right. So they even. They even tell you stuff where there's any sort of like, minor. Yeah, minor. Like, or problem. Like, it's like, so. And I had. I had two. Two things that were my. My shoulders, which I thought was.

[Sal]

They said they were weak. That is not the term they use.

[Adam]

It was a little fragile. My AC joint. Yeah.

[Sal]

Too.

[Adam]

Yeah, both my AC joints. And I thought that's.

[Sal]

I didn't.

[Adam]

I don't have any. I would. What I was hoping, or what I thought might pop up was the.

[Sal]

Of the.

[Adam]

My pec minor tear or whatever I thought would. Would pop up. And. And they would. That's what it was. And so I thought it was related to that one side. But then when I looked at it, I was like, oh, they're saying both sides. It's a little bit of degenerate. And then on my low back, which I knew this. I've talked about this before. Like, one of the things I've connected for a long time. And again, I have like. I have like, lower Lordosis. You know, I have this extreme Instagram book.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

That's what I say.

[Sal]

I've got Instagram butt model syndrome. Yes. Syndrome going on. He's always exposing. Right.

[Adam]

And so I've Know that. I mean, even when I'm on planes, I'll. I'll, like, I'll activate my core and. Yeah. So, like, I. I've always known that. I know when I don't train, even just like walking around, I'll feel kind of. My low back will bother me a little bit. But if I'm training, like, if I'm. When I'm on my training routine, it feels so good. And so I had a. A little bit of disc generation there. And then I have the two shoulder stuff, but it was minor.

[Sal]

You know, I talked to. Years ago, I trained. I used to train a lot of surgeons, and I remember one of them said something to me and it blew me away.

[Adam]

But it's true.

[Sal]

He said, I was talking about, you know, you know, herniated disc, convulsion disc. He goes, sal, he goes, if you MRI 100 people right now, random people with no pain, you will see a significant percentage of them will have some kind of bulging. Yeah. Herniated disc. And then they'll have no symptoms. He goes, and then you'll see people without any disc issues and have severe.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Sal]

Back pain. So, you know, just for people, if you did a Scan like this because I had a couple, you know, bulging discs here and there. I have. My back has never hurt. It never hurts. It's indestructible, I would say. But I do have a couple slight bulging. And then my cervical spine.

[Adam]

Where.

[Justin]

But yeah.

[Sal]

Where'd they find yours?

[Justin]

I don't even remember. Yeah, I think it was like hip and lower back, but I don't even feel that.

[Sal]

Yeah. Yeah, it did see that I had shoulder surgery. It's all. It looked like it had this surgery on your left shoulder.

[Adam]

Oh, wow.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

Oh, wow.

[Justin]

I was worried about my esophagus and like, you know, stuff that I was going through with my heartburn, but apparently I do have a hyallal hernia. So it's like. Yeah, it's like one of those minor things you just got to deal with.

[Sal]

Well, you could treat it, I think.

[Justin]

I think so.

[Sal]

Is it surgery?

[Justin]

Yeah, I think it's surgery.

[Sal]

Well, look it up, Doug, because I, I am almost positive I knew someone who did that. It was a life changing. Like it made a big difference. Yeah. Because otherwise you're getting that constant.

[Justin]

Yeah, but then it's the scope. Everything is like shoving things down your throat and it's just been deterring me.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

You know. Yeah, I know where this misleads.

[Sal]

I don't want to do this. Calm down, doctor. Calm down.

[Adam]

Get back to your, your, your bulge disc. And I've heard the same thing, right. That you, you. If you do that to 100 people and you'll get some people with like a 3 millimeter and they're. They're in no pain whatsoever, then you have somebody that has not. No bulge whatsoever. And then the back pain. I would love to see the correlation between that and the training of people because that, that. Just because of my own experience, like, I like, like I don't have any back problems or issues so long as I'm training. And I. Obviously it has probably a lot to do with my core being strong and being trained. And that is what works as first, the, Your. Your vacuum.

[Sal]

That's right.

[Adam]

I used to give this. With clients, I'd always give that analogy. Listen, you have these 28 muscles that wrap around your spine. And most people don't train, that don't work it out. And so it's weak and so your spine's like this. All kinds of pressure on it. We get that really strong and it sucks up like a vacuum around that and supports it.

[Sal]

Your discs are meant to cushion movement, but not support them. Movement. Right. That's Where.

[Adam]

And so I would. I would love to see that. Is there a correlation with the people that. More to that. That are like, pain or no pain, that are really.

[Sal]

I could tell you what I.

[Justin]

Weak and unstable.

[Sal]

Yeah. I can tell you. I've had many clients who have MRIs, and they. Who come to me with back pain because they're referred to me by some of my doctor clients. Severe back pain, herniated disc here. I might have to get fusion there. Then we train, the back pain's gone. Then they get the MRI and the disc is still messed up.

[Adam]

My experience also. And that. And it's such a bummer because a lot of people who are deconditioned, they don't train. Then they go get that diagnosis. Then they're, like, afraid to squat. They're afraid to do all these exercises because their doctor says they have a bulge disc and they have this chronic low back pain. And it's like, yeah, but watch what happens when we drop about 10 pounds of. 10 to 15 pounds of body fat. I get you strong. We build and develop this core. And then. But then. But a lot of times, hesitant and afraid to. Because they've told doctors said something like, don't load. Don't load your spine. Don't do anything like that. And so they're scared to death to do that. But in. In my experience, the people that we've been able to train and get strong like that, and my own personal experience, I noticed that chronic pain. I got low back pain. I get uncomfortable walking for 30 minutes. If I'm deconditioned.

[Sal]

Back surgeries, someone's gonna get mad for me saying, but back surgeries don't have a great record. They just. They don't. You know, when they have a good record, when they do them on fit, healthy people who do great therapy afterwards and exercise. Yeah. Otherwise, they tend to not have a great.

[Justin]

Very dependent on that. Yeah.

[Sal]

Yeah, dude. There's some joints that surgeries have a high success rate. The spine is not one of them. So you go get back surgery. It's like, you better absolutely need it. Train, and you better be strong going into it and strengthen afterwards. Otherwise, it's like one back surgery. Look at the data on this one. Back surgery often listens to it leads to another one and another one and another one. Yeah. You know, that's typically the experience. By now, you probably know that probiotics will improve your gut health. Right. They help you with your digestion, with bloating. But probiotics do a lot more than that. They Also help your skin. They improve endurance, they build strength. They've even been shown to help with fat loss. This is all proven by data. Now the question is, which probiotic do you go with? Seed. Seed is the world's best probiotic. This is the one that we promote. Go check them out. Get yourself 20% off. Go to seed.comforward/mind pump. Use the code 20mind pump to get that 20% off. Back to the show.

[Doug]

Our first caller is Naomi from Washington.

[Sal]

Hi, Naomi.

[Adam]

How you doing, Naomi?

[Naomi]

Good. How are you guys?

[Sal]

Good. How can we help you?

[Naomi]

Good. First of all, thank you guys so much for everything you guys do. I'm grateful for the valuable information you've brought to my life and I pray for you guys and your families as a.

[Rachel]

Thank you.

[Sal]

Thank you so much.

[Adam]

Awesome.

[Sal]

How can we help you?

[Naomi]

So my question is I want to go into the new year with a plan. So what program should I run and what should I do Nutrition wise? I'm 28. I've struggled with my weight my whole life. My highest was somewhere around 2:60 and I'm currently at 1:96. In the past two years, I focused on eating protein and being more consistent with it. I ran my first cut at the end of June to the end of September and it was a success. I went from 216 to 194. Since my cut, I've been eating less strictly and I need to get back on tracking. But I've checked in with my weight and it's only fluctuated between two to three pounds. I've stopped cutting in September in hopes of doing things the right way. But then I wasn't intentional about getting back to maintenance. My cut was 1800-2000 calories. Program wise. I ran anabolic on repeat for a year and then muscle mommy, then split. Then tried aesthetic, but it was too much volume. I'm currently running performance 15, but I have a bit of a back slash shoulder injury. I noticed that I have some imbalances like in my hamstrings because I got ACL surgery a long time ago and just never recovered from it. And then just non dominant and dominant imbalances. So my thought was symmetry. And ideally I want to cut, but if you guys give me a blueprint, I'll just do it closed eyes, head first.

[Sal]

Yeah. Good. Good job. Symmetry is a good program. Yeah. By the way, you are killing it. Yeah.

[Rachel]

Thank you.

[Sal]

Yeah, great job. Okay, so.

[Adam]

And to be able to kind of intuitively, intuitively eat and only see like a little bit of A fluctuation is also really a huge one, too.

[Sal]

Well, that tells me that you've built some good strength. You've got some good metabolic flexibility going on.

[Naomi]

Do you know, I've always. I've always been an athlete too, so I. I don't know if it's kind of like a natural thing, but I think I'm stronger than usual.

[Sal]

I guess that's good. Well, I mean, you also. I mean, you've been strength training consistently now for a little while.

[Adam]

See what her squat is?

[Sal]

No, what is it?

[Adam]

270.

[Sal]

Oh, God. You're really strong. Yeah. I think symmetry would be good. And I think if you focused on eating around maintenance with some little interruptions, with little cuts here and there, I think you would get. You'd have this nice, consistent overtime progress that would happen. Now, you could do more of an aggressive cut, but I would leave that up to you on how that makes you feel both not just physically, but emotionally and psychologically around food. But if you want to. I mean, honestly, if you just kind of ate up maintenance and then did like a two or three week cut here and there and then went back to maintenance and kind of fluctuated back and forth, I mean, you're gonna just. Over time, your body's gonna keep changing. Yep, yep. And you're gonna keep getting stronger and having body composition changes with a nice metabolism.

[Adam]

When you weren't really kind of tracking and you're just kind of intuitively eating and you. And you stayed in that kind of weight range, do you think you were hitting protein or do you think you were light on protein?

[Naomi]

I think I was a bit lighter on protein, if I'm being being honest.

[Adam]

So I. I think so. My strategy with you would be just to mainly focus on that. I think the way you're lifting, how strong you are switching a program up like that, eating when you're hungry, but focusing on hitting that protein on a consistent basis. I bet you build muscle and kind of naturally.

[Sal]

If you stayed away from process. Yeah. You stayed away from, like, processed foods and sweets and eating out and just did what Adam said. You're gonna get body composition change.

[Adam]

Yeah, I think you'll just. You'll get stronger, you'll lean out, inches will come down, and you'll be eating in a satisfied place versus like. Like, let's try and reverse aggressively and then cut aggressively. You're in a really good place, especially with your strength training. And then I think if you just consistently hit that protein, you'll feed that muscle building.

[Sal]

Yeah, I have one Question for you, Naomi.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Sal]

How is the process been for you? Is it. Have you enjoyed this process? Has it been kind of like a struggle?

[Naomi]

Well, since I found your podcast, it's been so much fun. Oh, it's been way better. I think I've gone to a place where I'm realizing, like, even the parts where I'm struggling, I'm still making progress.

[Sal]

That's awesome. You're. This is perfect.

[Adam]

You're awesome. You're in a great place.

[Sal]

If you're enjoying the process. Yeah, yeah. Let's not change anything. Do what I said totally, and keep going. And you're young. You're gonna see, like, this is gonna be great.

[Justin]

It'll keep going. Yeah, yeah.

[Sal]

You're gonna end in a place, Naomi, if you. If you do this consistently, you're gonna end in a place with a really fast, revved metabolism and nice body composition. You're going to feel good. Hormones will be balanced.

[Adam]

So if you're. If you're training well and you're eating whole foods, don't be afraid to eat when you're hungry. Just focus on the protein like you hear us talk about all the time. Like, because that's what will kind of naturally happen is if you're hovering around where you're at, your strength training, right? You're really prioritizing protein. You're going to start building muscle, and then the appetite's going to start to increase. And then don't. Don't feel like you have to restrict it, feed it, but feed it with good choices. And as long as you feed it with good choices, high protein meals like that, you watch what happens. You're just going to continue. You'll naturally reverse diet without, like, trying to reverse diet totally, just right. And that'll be a much healthier way to do it. You'll feel good while you. While you do it. Before you know it, you'll be eating away more calories and you'll be leaner. Okay, cool.

[Naomi]

Sounds good.

[Rachel]

I.

[Naomi]

Can I ask one more tiny question?

[Adam]

Yes. Yeah.

[Naomi]

My husband's a high school girls basketball coach, and right now I'm running Performance 15 with them, too. But we get into the gym, like, one day a week. How would I play that out? What would be the best way to arrange that?

[Sal]

So you mean for the girls or for yourself?

[Naomi]

For the girls. For the girls.

[Sal]

Okay, so they're strength training just once a week?

[Naomi]

Yeah, once, maybe twice a week.

[Sal]

And they're doing. How often are they practicing and all that stuff? What else are they doing?

[Matthew]

Play five Days.

[Naomi]

They practice six days a week.

[Adam]

Oh.

[Naomi]

Or they have games when they don't have.

[Sal]

Oh, they're doing three lifts. That's it. Yeah, they're going in. They're picking three major lifts. They're doing low reps, not to failure. Yeah. High school. You're looking at, like, squat, deadlift, overhead press, you know, that's it. You know, bench press, row. Yeah. So, like, one workout would be a squat variation to start with. Another workout would be like a deadlift variation, and then do like, a couple upper body exercises and that's it, you know?

[Naomi]

Okay, so just scrap performance 15 then, and do like a baseline big lift workout.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Sal]

Yep, yep.

[Adam]

Do you. Do you have symmetry already?

[Naomi]

I don't.

[Adam]

Oh, let us send you the full. We'll send that over to you.

[Naomi]

Okay, thank you.

[Sal]

Do you have symmetry 15, or do you want symmetry? Which one?

[Naomi]

Symmetry.

[Sal]

All right, we'll send that to you.

[Justin]

We haven't released that yet.

[Adam]

Yeah, my bad. Spoiler alert.

[Sal]

I got a new one coming out.

[Adam]

I think regular symmetries for her. Yeah, yeah, we'll send that over.

[Naomi]

Thank you guys so much. I appreciate you all.

[Sal]

Got it.

[Adam]

Hey, keep it up.

[Sal]

You know, it just dawned on me. What is that we don't have that program out.

[Adam]

No, no, we do have it out. Yeah, when this airs, it'll be out.

[Justin]

So we're good.

[Sal]

I just knew. Yeah, I actually had no idea. Here's this dawned on me, right? You guys, I know you remember this. Remember in our space, there used to be like. Like, these are healthy foods, these are unhealthy foods. That was what everybody understood. Then it turned into, there is no healthy, unhealthy food. You know, you can overeat healthy food too, and that'll make you gain weight. Technically, that's true. And I think that that message, although technically you could overeat calories in any kind of food and cause fat gain. What a terrible message. Because it confused the heck out of people because the quote unquote, unhealthy foods make you overeat. So, like, what we just told her, we didn't tell her to track anything. We just said, hey, hit your protein and stick to whole natural foods. Eat when you're hungry. What naturally happens in combination with strength training with that is body composition change. Yeah.

[Adam]

I've never had a client who I allow to eat as much as they want, so long as it's whole foods and they hit their protein while they're strength training. Put on body fat, we put on muscle.

[Sal]

That's right.

[Adam]

You put on muscle and that's just a natural limiter. Yes.

[Sal]

Is it possible? Yeah, of course. Probable.

[Justin]

You could press it, but yeah.

[Adam]

And, and if you, you know, eat 60% whole foods and 40% processed. Yeah. But if you truly choose whole foods and high protein meals slash snacks, it's like, you'll be fine.

[Sal]

Yep, yep.

[Adam]

You'll be fine. And listen to that appetite. That appetite. Most times it's an appropriate appetite.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

It'll steer you that, hey, we need to be fed. We need more calories for what we're doing. And then it'll be this nice natural reverse diet.

[Doug]

Our next caller is Jessica from Utah.

[Sal]

Hi, Jessica.

[Adam]

How you doing, Jessica?

[Caller]

Hello.

[Rachel]

Hello.

[Caller]

How's it going?

[Adam]

Good, great.

[Sal]

How are you?

[Caller]

Good. So before I kick off with my question, I do have to say go Park City. Actually, your neighbor, we're in the neighborhood right across the way from you. Oh, yeah. But my question is actually surrounding what long term maintenance and looks like. To give you some context, the past three years have kind of been a roller coaster for me, training and fitness wise. In April of 2023, I actually landed in the hospital unexpectedly. For two weeks they had no clue what was wrong with me. And after a lot of drugs, sleepless nights, in pain, they actually had to do exploratory surgery to find that my appendix had wrapped around my small intestine causing an intestinal blockage. So I left the hospital pretty emaciated and with what felt like very little muscle left for my recovery. I really vowed to get as strong as I could and actually started listening to the podcast around that time. So I started on this journey actually with your split program, started lifting, was going from very, very low weight, and then started increasing throughout 2023 and 2024. After split, I did aesthetic and then kind of fast forward to the summer of 2024. I was pretty much the strongest I've ever been in my lifetime. Late fall of 2024, I started a slow cut to prepare for my wedding in the summer of 202025 and got pretty lean while maintaining some pretty good muscle. And then this past October 2025, I had another surgery where I couldn't do my regular workouts, gained a little bit of weight back, and then just recently actually started resuming activity and made sure I started eating more to really help that healing and recovery. I'm now actually officially cleared to work out again, but I've been easing back into lifting and activity just at a slow pace. So my question for you all is, after a long journey of kind of slow building, slow cutting, and then kind of a mix of these surgeries and the whole mix there. I'm really at a place now where I'm looking to have a good maintenance routine to live a healthy life while enjoy and like enjoying the things that I like to do. I like to hike, I like to, to ski, I like to go wine tasting, eat food. Like just a healthful life. What I found is that I'm not quite sure I really have a good grasp of what long term maintenance is supposed to look like. I have a more of a, A type personality that's always striving for better performance or a goal in mind. So I was wondering if there was a good lifting, rotation or focus that you think would be appropriate for this mindset or lifestyle and what that might look like long term.

[Sal]

Good question. So I'll give you generally what this would look like and then I'll get a little bit more specific for maybe what next steps would look like for you. Generally speaking, for having this kind of lifelong relationship with exercise and nutrition, which is kind of what you're explaining. How do I have this lifelong relationship with it where I'm maintaining and kind of targeting good health. Your workouts and your nutrition are going to change all the time. And I don't mean daily, but they're going to change depending on the context of your life. So there are going to be moments. And now this requires that you, you make sure that the target and the focus is health. But this is going to look like sometimes I'm focusing more on mobility, other times I'm going to be focusing more on strength. Other times, recovery, relaxation, flexibility, stamina. Your diet is going to look like nourishing yourself. I feel like I need to eat more or I feel like I'm overdoing it a little bit right now. I need to bring it back. Maybe I need a little bit more fiber. I feel a little bit inflamed. And so you want to look at your diet and your exercise as ways to improve the quality of your life, regardless of the context of your life. Okay, so, you know, let's say you have a baby. Well, your workout's totally gonna look different and so is your diet. Let's say you have a period of time where you've got nice good time on your hands, you're sleeping great, no injuries, you're like, yeah, I think I'd like to sprint for a bit and see what I could do and maybe hit a PR and whatever. Essentially it's you're Enjoying the whole process and the journey is what you're enjoying and that's what it looks like lifelong. Now, to be more specific for someone like you, I, I see up here that you did a recent body scan and you're kind of estimating what you think your calories are at. Is that okay if I go over that a little bit?

[Caller]

Absolutely, yeah. So I did a recent body scan. They had me at approximately 15, body fat 137 pounds and I'm 5 foot 8. This was after, like I said, I got pretty lean for the wedding. After the surgery I wasn't really able to do any activity other than some light walking, so made sure like I bumped my calories a little bit there. So honestly like the 15, I know it's relatively low right now, but that I was probably even a little lower than that prior to the surgery as well.

[Sal]

So most, what this will look like for most women is a fluctuation. Body fat will fluctuate throughout your life depending on what's going on. But you're probably gonna sit somewhere in the low 20s is what healthy fit hormone balanced like body fat percentage typically looks like in women now that's give or take. There's genetic, you know, variances with people. But getting in the teens, especially the mid teens, that's, that's typically too low. So. So someone like you, if you were my client and you know that's most the information I know obviously things would get more individualized, but I would, we'd be trying to feed you while strength training and I'd want to actually see your body fat go up. Of course I'd want to see strength go up, but I'd want to see your body fat go up as well.

[Caller]

And so what would that typically look like for someone with my numbers currently? Is that something where I would go on a reverse diet and then follow a three day a week program or.

[Adam]

Probably yeah like a MAPS anabolic type of a program and you could easily where you're at calorie wise and because you're so lean right now, we could easily jump to, to 3,500 calories more a day. Easy, easily.

[Sal]

And you'll feel, you'll feel really good within days and you're going to build.

[Adam]

Muscle on that way too. And even if you put a percent or two of body fat on why we do that, it'll be okay. So you could someone who was like hot, much higher body fat percentage, we would probably creep them up slower like 150, 200 calories. But you're you're plenty lean enough to afford, you know, a 3, 3 to 500 minimum jump and still be okay. Especially if you choose good foods. Right. We're targeting high protein, whole foods. You make good choices. Now. Have you ever do you know like intentionally have you ever gone up the calories that high? I know you mentioned like having wine. Okay, so this is.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So I like to give a little bit of context. Even when I did like a slow bulk after my surgery in 2023, I mean it was a year long process where I was probably increasing my calories least. I don't know, a hundred per day, per week. Right. I've never done anything where I'm eating anywhere close to 3, 000 calories a day though.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Caller]

I think even during that process, I think the highest that I got to was about 2500.

[Sal]

You could jump to 25 right now. Right now?

[Adam]

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[Sal]

And you'll feel great. Yeah, you're gonna get strong, you'll feel good. Yeah. You're probably, you're not going to see much fat gain, to be honest with you. Yeah, you just see some.

[Adam]

Not if you're none of your strength training, if you're following like a maps.

[Sal]

Anabolic routine with it hitting your protein targets. Absolutely.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Adam]

How's your.

[Caller]

That's always been the, that's been the difficult thing for me because like I eat very clean. A very, very small percentage of my diet is processed foods or things like alcohol. It's just so it's harder for me to eat a lot, I guess. And I try to have a pretty high fiber diet as well. And after my first surgery, because it was, you know, it involved my intestines, they had me on a low fiber fiber diet to start out with and then I had to increase over time. So I guess I've never done like a true bulk in the sense of increasing to that level of calories.

[Adam]

I would, I would use things like high fat cottage cheese, higher fat cuts of meats, ribeyes, tri tip chicken thighs, stay away from the super lean cuts all the time and that naturally throw.

[Sal]

Olive oil on your vegetables. Yeah. You know, there's two things, two challenges typically we'll see with someone like you when we're bumping up calories. One is you may have developed a relationship with food where you don't feel comfortable eating in a place that's actually satisfying. It actually kind of feels full. And so there's a little bit of ignoring that. So it's like now you got to push yourself a little bit, and then you just kind of recalibrate your relationship to food. So that tends to be a thing. And by the way, now the other thing is someone may just have a lower appetite. Now, proper strength training tends to spike that a bit because you're trying to build muscle. But the other side of that is, you know, when I'm dealing with someone like that and genuinely, they've eaten so low calories for so long, even if we're doing good strength training, they're kind of like, oh, I don't know if I can eat that much and I'll push them a little bit. I mean, there are hyper palatable whole food options. You know, like ground beef, you know, 85 ground beef with rice. Throw a little avocado in there, you know, like, like a taco bowl type deal. That's a high calorie whole food, you know, so good option. And. And it's, it's more palatable. Right. Like if I'm eating like chicken breast. Oh, yeah. With broccoli and brown rice or something like that. Good luck. That's tough. So. So there are some, some more palatable whole food options, but you'll feel great right out the gates. Yeah. And, you know, the other question I have for you too, Jessica, is how do you know if you want to kind of break free from the, you know, kind of the grip, like wrapping your arms around the whole thing and tracking all the time like this is the direction you want to go? You definitely want to go in this direction.

[Caller]

Yeah, that's really what I'm looking for. It's kind of just been specifically a roller coaster these past few years, but historically too, it's, you know, traditionally my family didn't have a very healthy diet. It was something that I had to teach myself from a very young age. And I think a portion of, you know, trying to learn how to do that when I was younger is, you know, listening to all the fads that were out there at the time, doing the, you know, lean chicken breast and not doing, like, high fat content proteins and things of that nature. So it's probably just something I'm not used to as well.

[Sal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam]

The advice for me would be for you would be to hit just. The only thing I'd have you really track is the protein and go after 140 grams a day. And then, and then take the advice that Sal and I are giving. Go ahead and put olive oil on your vegetables. Have the ground beef eat the butter in your rice. Yeah. Do stuff like that. And it won't feel like you're changing a ton. You're just kind of switching the meat profiles that you're having. You're adding butter to rice, you're adding olive oil to vegetables, and that'll naturally kind of bump the calories. And it should taste good, should taste good, should feel good. It's not like you have to really focus on it.

[Sal]

Here's what, here's what you'll notice. You're going to have more energy, you'll get stronger. Your skin is going to look really good. You're going to sleep really good. Your hormones are going to start to feel really balanced. So good energy, good libido, no crashes. That's what it feels like when you start feeding your body appropriately, when you start nourishing yourself a little more, you just start to feel more vibrant overall.

[Caller]

Yeah. And so the 3,000 calorie mark, let's say adding that in here relatively soon, is that like something that I could have at maintenance consistently, or would that be a situation where I need to, like, taper that back a little bit and add some more in depending on my training cycle?

[Sal]

It depends. But so someone like you, your height, if you're strength training, you're strong. I've seen many, many women fit, healthy, young strength training where they can maintain very easily in the high 2000s and they're like 20 body fat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Naomi]

Okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Adam]

And that gives a lot of metabolic flexibility for you too, where, like, you know, you can enjoy your weekend sometimes and you're back on it during the week. And it's not like a strict diet and you have some of that flexibility.

[Sal]

Especially if you're active, like, you're in Park City. So I'm assuming you like, like to do outdoor stuff, like. Yeah. So.

[Adam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caller]

I have a. I have a desk job, essentially. I work from home, so I'm pretty much tied to a computer for the bulk of the day. But, like, even just walking in my neighborhood, it's a bunch of hills. I'm a skier, I'm a hiker. Right. Like, I take advantage of being out there, so definitely active pretty consistently. And then right now I usually lift like three to four times a week.

[Matthew]

Week.

[Caller]

Trying to figure out, like, what. What training program is appropriate for me like right now.

[Sal]

Maps. Anabolic.

[Adam]

Yeah, anabolic.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Adam]

Yeah. I like maps in a ball.

[Sal]

Let's get you strong. Yep.

[Adam]

Good volume.

[Caller]

Yeah. I was looking for something that would be compatible with, like, skiing and a lot of activity right now.

[Sal]

Yep, yep. I like this.

[Adam]

I like that. And if you. Jessica, if you want. I don't know, I mean, if you want someone to take you through that, we have coaches that do that. I don't know if you know that or not. So if that's something. Yeah, yeah.

[Sal]

We have them call you and they'll take you through the whole reverse diet process every step of the way. Yep.

[Caller]

That would be amazing. Thank you so much.

[Sal]

You got it. Okay.

[Adam]

Jessica, thanks for calling in.

[Caller]

Yeah, thank you. Have a good one. Appreciate it.

[Sal]

I really think we need to, like, really hammer that message. I think most women, Right. The context being you're exercising and all that stuff, so you're active, your strength training, all that stuff.

[Rachel]

Stuff.

[Sal]

Most women would feel their best around 20 body fat. Yeah. So that means if you're below that, you'd feel better if you were higher, and if you're above that, you feel better if you're a little lower. For men, it's probably around 12, 13 out there. I know.

[Justin]

It's like a lot of women want to be in the teens.

[Sal]

That's right.

[Adam]

I would, I would give a little more. I'd say 18 to 22.

[Sal]

Sure. There's, there's up or down, because I.

[Adam]

Had, I had a lot of female trainers that work for me that, that, that, that walked around very healthy, ate a lot.

[Sal]

Right.

[Adam]

18, 19. So, I mean, I think you can be in that. And they were active, so that all matters too. Right.

[Justin]

Of course, your metabolism is up to.

[Sal]

That, but, you know, like, give or take. Right. Like I said, For 12 friends, some of them feel good at 10. Or is it.

[Adam]

You know what? I also think that matters in that context too. Sal is like 18 body fat in a female who is very active and eats 2800 plus calories is really good.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

18 body fat girl who's eating 1800 calories. 1800, yes. That's a different story. So I think that that matters even more too, is, like, how well you're being fed and being able to maintain that body fat percentage makes a difference.

[Doug]

Our next caller is Matthew from Utah.

[Sal]

What's up, Matthew? What's up?

[Matthew]

Hey, good morning. Merry Christmas.

[Sal]

Yeah. How can we help you?

[Matthew]

Yeah. So I guess first off, thank you guys so much. Appreciate the podcast. I found you guys in 2021, towards the end of diet, I was doing, and you guys have been awesome ever since. So thank you.

[Sal]

So you got it.

[Matthew]

So to start off, I'm 43. I've been following maps anabolic for years. Since 2021, I've ran maps, hit OCR aesthetic. Love them all, but, yeah, I'll get into that later. I probably ran the anabolic about five times. It has helped me get stronger. I really do enjoy the workouts and just the full body workout. I'm still overweight. A lot of it sits in my midsection. My main goal has always been to lose the belly flat, but I do lose motivation because I do love food a lot, and I do struggle to focus on one goal where it's like, you know, I want to lose belly fat, but I want to have longevity, mobility. And I just. I'm like a squirrel, you know? So I do list consistently. I do get frustrated at times when my endurance doesn't last or my body composition doesn't improve, and I just feel overwhelmed. I get just down that negativity hole. I really love mountain biking. It's one of the most sports that I just. I've attached to. I do get gassed out going uphill a lot, and that sometimes does get me demotivated to go out. But I do enjoy it, especially getting with friends. And all my friends are getting electric bikes, and I'm still poor, so I won't think I'll ever get a mountain bike, electric bike. So to help keep me up with them, I do want to improve my endurance. So my real question is, how can I build a plan or a mindset that helps me stay consistent, keep lifting, which I do love, build endurance, and last longer on the bike and finally lose the stubborn belly fat that's been hanging on me for years?

[Sal]

All right, good question. All right, we'll start with diet.

[Adam]

I think that's everything. Yeah, that's because I think the training part and the. What he does activity wise is fine. I think we need to dive into the nutrition stuff, so.

[Sal]

So I'm sure you've heard this before. It's going to take some discipline. Duh. But the. The most effective way to apply discipline is in a very clear black and white. Follow a few rules and stick to them, and that's that. And. And so I'm going to give you the ones that make the biggest impact. In fact, if you just do most achievable ones, the ones I'm going to tell you and you're consistent with them, you will see yourself get leaner consistently over time. So there's two rules. Okay. Number one, first off, let me ask you, what's your target body weight?

[Matthew]

So I think I weighed last week. I don't weigh myself a lot, but it was 216.

[Sal]

Okay. And what's Your target body weight to.

[Matthew]

Be healthy, I guess. And I'd say 165. For my height, I'm 5 7.

[Sal]

Okay, so eat 170 grams of protein every day and only eat whole natural foods. That's it. That's it. You hit 170 and you hit whole natural foods, and you eat when you're hungry, and that's it. And keep working out. And you will see yourself get leaner and continue to improve in the gym if you just follow those two rules.

[Adam]

Now, somebody who has struggled with diet consistency, okay? And if you're my client, one of the things. And I. And I know that getting my client who. Who struggled with this for a long time to. To go from, you know, maybe all their food choices that they do to all the way to Whole Foods consistently is really hard. The thing that I always get them to commit first to is that, okay, if you're going to do that thing, you're gonna have that snack, you're gonna have that glass of wine, you're gonna have that thing that you. That is really tough for you to say no to or whatever, you go hit your protein first and then you can have it. And that. That's that psychological game of, okay, I'm not saying I can't have that thing that I like to enjoy. Every once in a while, I'm going to say I can have it, but I first have to get that pro, hit that protein. And that tends to solve this like, 90 of time. And just the permission that, that I'm not going to tell you, you can't ever have that thing that you like to have. And I don't know what that is for you. Like, everybody's got their thing. It's a chocolate bar. It's a thing of ice cream. It's a. What is yours?

[Matthew]

All the above.

[Adam]

Okay, so. So then that. That's what. We got to be careful with this. Like, oh, just switch over to whole foods. That's it. It's that simple. It's like somebody who allows a lot of those things to. To get into. Creep into their life a better way or a better strategy for me has always been, I'm not gonna just rip all those out of your life right now. What I'm gonna say is step one is you go have to. You have to hit your protein first, and then you can enjoy that thing. And then we start to make, like, modifications for those types of things, right? So like you said, if it's all things, and I know that if you hit your Protein intake. It takes at least half the day, if not 3/4 a day just to get to that protein intake. And so it's this like nightly snacking thing. It's like, okay, well, here's the thing you reach for normally. Let me give you an alternative that will kind of make you feel like you're getting something like that, but isn't the same thing. And it's better. But if you least start with go hit your protein first before you allow that, it tends to solve at least 80% of the kitchen problem stuff. And then we get better at those things.

[Sal]

Matthew, one more thing, too. If you were to take your camera and show us your cupboards and your fridge, would any of those foods be in there?

[Adam]

No.

[Sal]

Good.

[Matthew]

Not right now.

[Sal]

Good.

[Adam]

Yeah. Don't go grocery shopping later.

[Sal]

Yeah. Don't make it.

[Matthew]

Well, I think the hard part, too, is my wife and my kids don't really follow anything and they don't like it. And so it's like sometimes my. At night and not putting blame on her because I should have the discipline of just saying, oh, I'm good. I can let you have a snack. But sometimes that's our kind of relaxing period is watch a show.

[Sal]

Sure.

[Matthew]

Have a. Have some ice cream. But I know I've done in the past. Well, so in 2021, I did a work competition and to lose fat. And I actually did it by following keto in a way, like, I was 17, 1500-1900 calories a day. I was following a. One of those app programs before I found you guys. And then it was fine. I lost the. I lost weight. But of course, like you guys have always said, like, it just doesn't. It's not sustainability.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

You know, and so I gain it back.

[Adam]

No, Matt, I'm gonna say something to you.

[Sal]

Okay. I hope.

[Adam]

How old's your kid?

[Matthew]

Oh, I got three. 17, 15 and 11.

[Adam]

Okay. So if you don't do it for yourself, change these behaviors and habits for them. Because what you're going to do right now by making every time we sit down to watch a Netflix show or whatever, the things you guys watch, that we have a bowl of ice cream, you're setting him up or her up to be in the exact same boat you're struggling with right now. And I know that firsthand, because that was. I grew up in that childhood also, where though that was okay. That was normal. And now my whole life, I have struggled with a sweet tooth to the point where I just cannot have it in my house because I know Myself. So. Well, and so if you. If you're not motivated enough to say no to that and discipline yourself for that, you should do it for your kids at the very least, because you're setting them up for the same struggle that you're currently going through right now. And so that's the lens I would look at through this. And it doesn't mean they can never have ice cream. Okay. Ever again. But it means that's not a normal thing that we do that every, like, night or most nights or several nights a week. It becomes a very rare special occasion that we do something like that, because dad doesn't do that. And you're leading the house. So if. If you don't. If you have a hard time finding the motivation for yourself, motivate yourself because of what you're. You're potentially setting your kids to struggle up with.

[Sal]

But honestly, Matthew, if you don't have a lot of that in the house, and if you hit your protein and stick to whole foods and those are the only rules you follow, you're gonna crush. The reason why keto worked for you and some people is because it's a very hard and fast rule. No carbs, right? So say, I'll just do that. And so it automatically drops your calories. What. The advice we're giving you is far more balanced and sustainable. So just. Just do that, and you'll be totally, totally set. And Adam's right. What'll happen? And the data shows us very consistently, it's not 100%, but it's very consistent that dad kind of leads the leads the habits in the house. So you don't have to force everybody. It's just like, oh, we don't have it in the house. And then it just slowly. It's not gonna happen overnight. You might get a little him and haw, especially got teenagers, but then it starts to slowly just kind of be that way.

[Matthew]

Yeah, that makes sense. When. When. And this might not say a dumb question, but just maybe overthinking it with whole foods, Greek yogurt, things like that.

[Adam]

Like, you're fine.

[Matthew]

Yeah, you know, there's a process. Some of the foods.

[Adam]

No, no, that's good. So Greek yogurt, cottage cheese. Those are. Those are great. Those are. Those are great late night snacks. Or while you're sitting there.

[Sal]

That's right. Yeah.

[Adam]

Greek yogurt and pineapple. I mean, yeah, Greek yogurt and pineapple is what I was snacking on last night.

[Sal]

Blend a little whey protein powder in your Greek yogurt. And freeze it and put it on a rice cake and. Yeah, it's a dessert. Okay. Yeah.

[Matthew]

And then kind of directing towards Justin, because you've also mentioned a lot of heartburn issues you've had.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

And that's one thing I liked about keto, because I did notice my heartburn go away. Do you think natural food, just doing the natural foods would also help, or should I be more or less carby?

[Justin]

Yeah, it's an individual thing. Like, have you been able to tease that out with carbs, like, specifically, like in different types? Because I kind of have for myself. But it did take a process of elimination type of diet. And so. So reintroducing it really slowly, seeing kind of the effects. Sometimes there's a delayed effect too. So with me is like dairy was a delayed. More of a delayed effect. So like a day or two days later is when I would get a bad reaction to that. But yeah, so I, I would definitely take that time to, to assess, like when you are bringing foods like that in, how it's affecting that, but cutting it off. Like, I don't know for you, but for me, like 7 o', clock, even like eating 8 o'.

[Adam]

Clock.

[Justin]

The latest possible life. Life changer.

[Adam]

For me, I found for most, most my clients, the things that they tend to be okay with are the, like the sweet potato yams, quinoa rice type of carbohydrates, it's the starchier carbs, breads.

[Justin]

Pasta, more grainy stuff.

[Adam]

Yeah. That stuff is what tends to really. Now everyone's a little individual, but for the most part, I'd say if you're. You're pairing your meat with the carbs that I just said, sweet potato, yams, quinoa rice, you're probably going to be pretty good. And if you take Justin's advice of getting it earlier in the night so you have plenty, plenty of time to digest before bed, that'll probably move you pretty far. Just that in itself, you don't have to totally eliminate carbohydrates.

[Matthew]

Yeah, that makes sense. I know, I know. Just the. I mean, like you said, discipline is probably the biggest. And I. The hardest part when I try to do whole foods is just the planning where I try to spend one day a week to like make my lunch, my breakfast.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

So I can just grab and go. But yeah, life is just.

[Sal]

Are you.

[Adam]

Who cooks? You, you or your wife?

[Matthew]

I do.

[Adam]

You cook at night?

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Adam]

So I mean, you've probably heard me say this at nauseam on the show. I'm such A big fan of like a huge thing of ground beef and rice and you just overcook. You overcook. So whatever you're used to double that amount. So you, so you have your lunch and breakfast and then in the morning, literally could crack two eggs or three eggs over it in a skillet and it's ready in three minutes or less. And you got yourself a high protein, good tasting, you know, even sprinkle a little bit of cheese on it. So like that, you know, it doesn't have to be hella boring and strict. That type of eating consistently will, will really move the needle. And another thing that really helps, Matthew, when you, when you strug do with sweets and those things is I noticed when, when I, when I stay on top of my protein and I stay fed, those cravings don't pull at me as hard. It's when I go long periods of not eating and then I get hungry. And then now all those things, now all those things sound so good. Where it's like, so for me, that's why I've always been a big fan of like four to six meals in a day, is because if I'm always kind of eating something, I never allow that pool, that craving to really pull at me. I'm always eating something that, and, and make good choices like that. You'll be all right.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I, I just have to really focus or not focus, but just really not let my mood trigger me because I know like at work or something, like something will really frustrate me, annoy me. I just get depressed and it's like, oh, McDonald's sounds great. Yeah, yeah, that's gonna solve everything.

[Sal]

Yeah, but if you brought your food with you, it's, you know, especially if you're, you know, looking at your finances just like, oh man, I'm gonna buy food. I just brought food.

[Justin]

Yeah, I also, again, slow walks, man.

[Adam]

The, the psychological game that I had to play, that I've had to teach clients in that situation because those aren't going to come. And that does sound good. And there's a reason why. There's, you know, scientific reason why that is. It's that, you know what, maybe I will have McDonald's, but first I'm gonna eat this meal, this that I brought, and then if I still feel like it and it just, it tends to solve that. Like you get it in and then you're like, oh, I don't have that same craving anymore, but it's because I haven't ate. That thing happened to me. Oh, yeah, that that greasy. That greasy food from McDonald's sounds good. So try reframing it like that. That you're not telling yourself you can't be prepared by having the meals. Get the stuff out of your house. And then, like I said, like, the way I think from the father perspective is it's less about me. It's a. It's more about. I don't want my kids to have the same struggle as I do. And so, you know, I want. I want to do it for them more than anybody else.

[Matthew]

Oh, for sure. No, that's good. I like that.

[Adam]

Cool.

[Matthew]

And so. And I probably don't need to really. Just whatever program I'm working on, just stick to that. But just really more focus on your.

[Adam]

Activity is good, bro.

[Sal]

I think Symmetry would be a good program for you. Yeah, I think that would be a good. Since you've ran Anabolic so many times in a row. Maps. Have you followed Symmetry?

[Matthew]

No, I'm currently on performance right now.

[Sal]

Oh, performance is great. Yeah, you're good, too. Let me send you Symmetry if you don't got it.

[Matthew]

Oh, I appreciate that.

[Sal]

Yeah, you got it, dude.

[Adam]

Any.

[Matthew]

Any advice on, like, because the high. What do you call it? Less weight, more volume, or more reps? I get very bored. Like, like I said, My ADHD, I'm just like, I'm at 8, and I'm also like, wait, I'm not done yet. And then I'm thinking of something else, and then I get bored. Is there any, like, hack or anything that you would recommend?

[Sal]

I mean, you could change things angry. Yeah, I mean, you could change things up, I guess.

[Adam]

I mean, put more weight on the bar because it's. When it's really heavy, it's hard to think about. Yeah, that's true. You know, put some more weight on that bar.

[Sal]

It's all right.

[Justin]

Listen to metal.

[Sal]

Yeah. You could also train in a way that's unconventional, you know, like.

[Adam]

Oh, that's my point.

[Sal]

Like Old Time strength.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Sal]

Or strong. Like, these are programs that are very different that might peak your.

[Justin]

Yeah, okay, good point.

[Sal]

Yeah. Maps Anabolic is very straightforward. Same exercises. Like.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I could see you get very comfortable. And, like, I enjoy it. Like, I love those. And I know there's exercises in there that I can improve. Squat.

[Adam]

Sure.

[Matthew]

Bench, like.

[Sal]

But if, you know, if you're bored and you want to try something different, like Map Strong and Map Symmetry and Maps Old Time, they're very different.

[Adam]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Okay, cool.

[Sal]

Yeah, you got it, dude. Yep.

[Matthew]

Awesome. I really do appreciate you guys. Everything you guys bring to the table. Adam, your family and your. Your story of getting off ketamine. Like, that's. That's awesome. Congratulations, man. That's so cool, Justin, just you and your kids and your story. Building the pond recently, I listened to was really awesome. And, Sal, I. I really do appreciate you bringing up the topic of pornography. I really appreciate your story, and that's been very helpful to me as well. So thank you all.

[Adam]

Give it up, man.

[Justin]

Keep after.

[Matthew]

Thanks. Have a good Christmas.

[Adam]

You, too.

[Sal]

That's. Well, just to make sure we correct it, it's not ketamine. You came off. You weren't using ketamine. You're using Kratom. You bought it over the counter.

[Justin]

What would he be like?

[Sal]

There's a big. That's all I know.

[Adam]

That's right. I mean, Adam, I get. I get his point, I guess.

[Justin]

Porn salad.

[Sal]

But there's a difference. Yeah, there's a difference.

[Adam]

There's definitely a difference. One of them. You can just go pick up an herbal.

[Sal]

Yeah. Oh, bro, you were a kid.

[Rachel]

I mean, addicted.

[Justin]

You guys are hardcore.

[Sal]

You know the thing, too, it's like, listen, there. There always is a discipline component. Always. Yeah.

[Adam]

And so this is why I went the kid route, bro.

[Sal]

Yeah. So when people say, you know, and look, there's easier and harder ways to do this. And so the rules we give have so many downstream effects, and they're very easy rules to follow from a simplicity standpoint. Right. Because there's lots of rules I could throw at somebody. But there's also. There's always a discipline component, which is like. Yeah. Like, if you go off whole foods and you're snacking on snacks and processed foods and you're eating out, you know, fast food, like, it's not going to happen.

[Adam]

Listen, I appreciate Matthew having the courage to come on and. And be vulnerable and share honestly everything that he struggles and challenge with. The reality is that he is actually like most people.

[Sal]

Yep.

[Adam]

Not everybody goes and admits that. And, you know, we tend to attract a lot of people that want to talk to us that are already fitness fanatics, but the reality is he represents the majority of people, which is what a lot of the conversations on this podcast have been inspired by. And I know we've taken criticism from our peers in the. Over the. Like that, but it's like, that's. He's who I trained.

[Sal]

That's right.

[Adam]

Like, that's the type of client that I train on. And it's. And it is baby steps. And there's. It's a. There's A lot of layers. You know, it's not. It's. And it's rarely ever. I mean, he's doing great programming. He likes to do activity things. So it's not that. It's this struggle around food and food noise and finding ways to unlock that and figure that out. But as a dad, man, to me, at least when I became a dad, one of the biggest motivators was looking through the lens of my. My kids, him knowing at 43 years old how much this is a struggle for him.

[Sal]

Right.

[Adam]

That is, there's been no bigger motivator for me than to go, my kid right now, who's six, is watching everything that I do.

[Sal]

Totally.

[Adam]

And so therefore, as bad as I want to go do that thing, I. I don't want him to struggle the same way I am. And that, to me, I think that's. That's the. The direction he should really try and focus on. I think that will help the most.

[Doug]

Our next caller is Rachel from Michigan.

[Sal]

Hey, welcome back, Rachel.

[Adam]

How you doing?

[Rachel]

I'm doing good. I'm really excited to be back here, and I'm thrilled that it's right before Christmas. So I hope you guys have a merry Christmas and everything. And thanks again for having me back on.

[Sal]

So you got it. All right, give us the update. What's going on?

[Rachel]

So I actually just wrote it out, and I was just gonna read. It helps with the nerves a bit, so no problem. Hi, Mind pump. Great to be back on the show. Last time I was on because I was over training on maps, you assessed my diet and daily life and found that it was because of my very active lifestyle and the amount of food was too low. You said to do maps 15 every other day or every two days and eat a protein shake in between meals. The first week, I implemented just the protein shakes, and they work super good. At first, I had a lot more energy for my daily life, but was still feeling a little tired and not getting stronger. So I tried working out every other day or every two days. It was very hard. It turns out I have an exercise addiction. I was very anxious from missing the workouts, but felt better energy levels doing maps 15 only two to three days a week. Despite eating more and exercising less, I still did not get stronger, but I finally stopped losing weight. Now my schedule is a little bit different as I was laid off in November for the winter season. I'm still fairly active, but I'm struggling with eating enough and not overdoing it. I think. I tend to have high cortisol which causes me to have kind of a wired energy. And when I miss ANK or when I miss workouts, I feel very anxious and itchy, like I'm not doing enough. My goal is to get stronger and leaner and develop a healthy exercise relationship where I rule the exercise and it does not rule me. I also have a goal of getting rid of the weird, itchy, anxious feeling I get when I feel like I'm not working hard enough. I feel like I'm still under eating, especially now since my schedule changed. I don't always get the two protein shakes a day. I tracked one day and I'm eating 2, 200 calories with 148 grams of protein and 156 grams of carbs. Eating more does scare me. I really don't want to gain fat. I just want to gain muscle. Since we talked last, I'm two pounds heavier. I feel a little stronger, but my lifts are still pretty similar. I just feel more stable in them, if that makes sense. I have switched over to Maps power lift and I'm halfway through it. I've been enjoying it. I know I have so much potential because my lifts are pretty low. I just need some guidance and help breaking like the exercise addiction and the fear of overeating. I really hope you guys can help. Thank you.

[Sal]

Rachel, if I recall, you were like you were a machine in terms of the amount of work you were doing every day. Can you give me. This was before. What were you doing again before? Because I vaguely remember you was like a farm you worked on or something like that.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I was a park ranger in the summer, so I was like doing a lot of weed whipping and stuff and taking care of campers and hiking. And then I also have like my animals at home. I take care of in my garden. I do and everything. And then I like make dinner and everything for the family.

[Adam]

So I remember crazy step, crazy amount of steps every day. Right. Weren't you like over 18,000 something?

[Rachel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably about that.

[Sal]

So I remember.

[Justin]

Okay, now I remember super active.

[Sal]

So here's the thing, Rachel. This is going to feel uncomfortable. There's no way around this. So there's no way for us to do this without you feeling uncomfortable because we got to move you out of this place that you're in. You're going to have to eat more and it's going to feel like you're force feeding yourself.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Sal]

And it's going to feel like that for a while until you settle into it.

[Adam]

It, there's, there's Ways, though, and tips within the foods that we can creep those calories in without making it feel like you're having to have this whole other meal, though. Like, if you break, break, like give me the. The three meals you probably ate to hit 2200 calories.

[Sal]

What.

[Adam]

What are we looking at?

[Rachel]

I would like, I would drink like a protein shake when I got up, and then I would eat like my breakfast after my workout, which would be like beef jerky with some butter, milk and yogurt and cottage cheese. And then I'd have almost the same thing for lunch because it's like my favorite thing to eat. And then dinner, I'll always eat meat, fruit and some sort of vegetable, potatoes, rice or something like that.

[Sal]

You gotta throw another meal in there, maybe like a ground beef rice, avocado bowl, and just throw that in a nice 500 calorie meal. Add to what you're currently doing and you'll see yourself your energy's gonna go up and you're gonna get stronger. You're just not eating enough on and you're really. So tell me what your activity looks like now, because I know you're not working for the winter, but what does.

[Rachel]

It look like now? It's like, it's like less so, like, I'm not doing the Maps 15 workouts anymore. I switched over to power lift because I have more time to do it and I'm really liking the power lift one. But so now I just like, I do maps, power lift. And then after that, I eat my breakfast and everything and then I go out and I take care of my chickens and stuff and do our wood stove and everything. And then I come back in. That's lunch time. So I eat lunch then normally I read for a while. Then I pick up the house and everything. And then I, I. It's winter time, so I have a lot of shoveling to do now. Sometimes I shovel for like two hours a day. Just the snow to move it. I. Yeah, I usually make dinner and everything for everyone.

[Sal]

So you're a little machine, but yeah, you add a meal.

[Adam]

Yeah. Add a five or six, two tablespoons of peanut butter in that shake in the morning too.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

Okay. Do you think I'm getting enough carbs in? Like, I'm getting 156 grams of carbs a day. Is that enough or no?

[Sal]

No, I think you need to just get more calories.

[Adam]

That's why I'm trying to give you little things like peanut butter and your two table, two big heaping tablespoons of peanut butter in your shake in the morning.

[Sal]

Will that'll help a little bit.

[Adam]

Give you a nice bump. Right.

[Sal]

But just throw another meal. Find a time to eat another meal. Make like I said, a ground like 85% ground beef, rice, some avocado, some salsa, cheese, and eat a bowl. Tastes good. It's gonna feel different for someone like you because you're like, I don't know if I can eat that much. So you're gonna kind of have feel. You're gonna have to kind of get past that a little bit. But with your activity, I mean, you're eating too little, you're maintaining. But if you want to see yourself get stronger, thrive and thrive, you're gonna need to bump your calories.

[Adam]

What, are you gonna make dinner for the family tonight? What's on the journey agenda?

[Rachel]

Well, tonight I actually, I'm gonna be working, so it's just leftovers for me. I packed myself some chicken thighs and some squash and a little bit of fruit with a little bit of milk.

[Sal]

Okay. How many people are you taking care of?

[Rachel]

I have two sisters and then my mom and dad and my dog. So.

[Sal]

Yeah. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta eat more, hon. You're like, you're, you're like, you're moving a lot. Yeah. You are very active.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I, I just, sometimes I, I don't really feel active and I, I don't know. I. I don't know. I just like, get, like, I get itchy sometimes because I feel like I'm not doing enough.

[Adam]

You're doing enough. Yeah, you're doing enough.

[Sal]

I'm not gonna tell you to move less. I, I get it. It sounds like you're very valuable. Yeah. To your family. It sounds like you derive a lot of, like, pleasure out of serving people. You like to be productive, you like to contribute. Those probably resonate with you. I'm not going to tell you to do less. I'm not going to tell you to do less.

[Justin]

We're just trying to build you up.

[Sal]

But you got to eat more. You got to fuel yourself. If you're going to do all that stuff.

[Justin]

You'll be more effective at all that stuff.

[Sal]

You'll be more effective at helping and doing all that work if you fuel yourself. Think about it this way. Eat for performance. Eat for performance. And if you add a 500, 600 calorie meal, you're going to perform better. All the things you do, you're going to do better. Yeah.

[Justin]

Especially if you start feeling strength from that. You know, you're okay. You're humming.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

Yeah, because that was like another thing that I think probably has to do with it. I've. I've just like whenever I work out, I never get muscle pumps, like, ever. So I didn't know if. Is it used? I don't eat enough.

[Adam]

You're depleted, that's why. Yeah, glycogen stores are low.

[Justin]

Reason.

[Adam]

Yeah, that's. You'll. When you're, when you're filled up, you'll. You'll feel that pumpkin. You'll fill that pump.

[Sal]

When you're.

[Adam]

Yeah, you're depleted right now.

[Sal]

Does your whole family like you? Do you guys all just work your butts off?

[Rachel]

Yeah, kinda. We're always busy nonstop, it feels like, so.

[Sal]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, you gotta throw another 500 calorie meal. Eat it every day. Literally. Just an additional meal to everything you normally eat.

[Rachel]

Okay. Yeah. Cause I know, like when I, when I talked to you guys last time, you had me put in like 2 of the protein shakes. Shakes. And I would do that. I think there it was probably only adding an extra about 300 calories a day, I think. But I did notice I, I just felt more energy right away from it. And then it kind of went away like within like a week because it's still not enough.

[Adam]

Rachel, make them, make them tasty. Make them tasty. Throw a, but throw a banana in there. Throw 2 tablespoons of peanut butter in there. Maybe even have some Nutella on top of that. Make a, make a really good high protein, high calorie shake. Like, don't, don't just have whey protein and milk. It's too, that's too low. Have a good 5, 6, 700 calorie shake when you do it. And that will, that'll. If you have a hard time getting the meal, like I'm with Sal, I'd like to see you get a meal. I know how hard making a whole nother meal can be sometimes. So then when you have the shakes, don't be just having whey shakes. You need to put a banana in there, put some peanut butter in there, like calorie it up and that. That'll serve you.

[Sal]

Yeah. And just, just a tip too, Rachel, for what I said, you know, I do this at home or my wife does this. She just cooks a lot of ground beef and a lot of rice once or twice a week. And then we put it in the fridge. And then I always have a meal. I could just always mix them together and it's done.

[Adam]

Crack eggs on it, put cheese on it. It Turns into something good.

[Sal]

But. Yeah, but Adam gave great advice to you. If you're already using a blender, throw a banana, some peanut butter, and Nutella in there, and you've just given yourself some extra calories, some fuel.

[Rachel]

All right, so you think probably, like, take 500 extra calories a day at least.

[Adam]

At least for you. I'm not even worried about you. That's why I said, yeah, two heaping spoons throwing Nutella on there. You accidentally went to 700 calories over. We're gonna be fine.

[Sal]

Rachel, if you were my client, I would probably get you up to close to around 3,000 calories or above is probably where we would end up, because how active you are because of your activity. Yep.

[Rachel]

So, like, a way. So, like, I would know, like, I'm eating enough once I get stronger, right?

[Adam]

Yeah. And you'll feel the pumps. You'll start. You'll know when you're. You'll. You'll know when you're hitting those calories. Right? Is you'll start feeling the pumps for the first time. You will.

[Rachel]

Okay. Because I really want to get a muscle pump.

[Matthew]

I've been doing it for so long.

[Adam]

You got it. You got it.

[Justin]

You deserve one.

[Adam]

I'll tell you. Just so you know, when. When you're in that depleted state and you always do it like, you know, it reminds me of getting ready for a show. So we're getting ready for a show. I'm low calorie. Low calorie. Low calorie. The last three to four days, I. I have to load before I actually really feel it. So one day of good eating is not going to result in the. In the pump. You're going to need to have several good high calorie days. Then the pump comes. So just keep that in mind. Like, don't think, like, oh, just because you had one. You're gonna have, like, one big day and you're like, the guys told me I'd fill a pump, and I don't feel a pump. I had a big, high calorie day. You'll. Because you've been low for so long, it's going to take a couple days to really load the body up to feel the pump that you're looking for.

[Sal]

Yep.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Adam]

But that. That'll sit. That'll tell us you're on the right track.

[Sal]

Yep.

[Rachel]

All right, so just. Just keep eating until I get stronger and start getting some pumps, basically.

[Adam]

That's right. That's right. That's right.

[Sal]

How old are you again, Rachel?

[Rachel]

22.

[Sal]

Oh, you're dull. Yeah. I love it. This will be fun. Can we have you back on? Let's do this again. Yeah, let's do it.

[Adam]

Call us when you get a pump.

[Matthew]

I know.

[Rachel]

Okay. Yeah. Next time I come back on, I hope I'm gonna be so much stronger because I'm doing power lift right now. Really want to get my lifts up.

[Adam]

Get those calories up. You will, I promise.

[Sal]

Absolutely.

[Justin]

Strong and optimal here real soon.

[Rachel]

Okay. I'm really gonna go for it this time. Like. Like hardcore.

[Sal]

Yeah.

[Adam]

All right, y'.

[Rachel]

All.

[Sal]

Thank you.

[Adam]

Let's get it.

[Rachel]

All right. Bye, guys.

[Adam]

Thanks so much.

[Rachel]

Merry Christmas.

[Adam]

Merry Christmas.

[Sal]

You know when you, you, you. You know when you talk to a kid and you just know they were raised like, well, yeah. What a great kid. Yeah. But busting her butt, my God, she just needs to eat more.

[Justin]

We need to protect people like that.

[Sal]

Yeah. Yeah, totally, totally. She's so young, so this is great. She'll have fun with it. Get stronger, start feeling the energy, develop that relationship with food that's going to last forever.

[Adam]

Where's she at? Michigan? Is that where she at? Yeah.

[Sal]

She's like, yeah. You know, now that I'm not working, I'm. I'm like, I'm not doing as much. I wake up, I'm working outside. Then I come in for lunch. I'll read, I'll read for a while. Yeah.

[Adam]

Clean the house.

[Sal]

Then I'll do a bunch of shoveling.

[Adam]

Shovel snow for two hours, bro.

[Sal]

If I shoveled for 45 minutes, go chop some wood, I'll be dead, you know? So great. Love it. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. We'll see you. It's at Mind Pump Media.

[Doug]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.

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