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- [00:00]
Justin Andrews
If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.
- [00:06]
Sal DeStefano
Mind Pump. Mind Pump. With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.
- [00:12]
Justin Andrews
And Justin Andrews, you just found the.
- [00:14]
Sal DeStefano
Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, we had live callers call in and we coached them on air, but this was after the intro. Today's intro was 55 minutes long. The intros where we talk about fat loss and diet, nutrition, muscle gain, current events, family life, always a good time. By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this where you can call in, we'll help you out. Submit your question to mplivecaller.com now, this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Crisp Power. These are high protein pretzel snacks. They're delicious. Each bag is like 26 to 28 grams of protein. If you want to hit your protein targets and it's hard for you, try adding a bag or two of Crisp Power. They're delicious and they're high protein, go to crisppower.com, use the code mindpump10. Get 10% off. This episode is also brought to you by Organifi. They make incredible supplements. Today we talked about their shilajit gummies. Shilajit in studies has been shown to help with osteopenia, to help with testosterone, fertility, energy, strength gains, athletic performance. I'm not making this up. Look up the data yourself. Organifi's shilajit gummies are sourced by a company called Prima V. This is the best shilajit. A lot of them out there are fake. Not organifi. Go to organifi.com mindpump use the code mindpump. Get 20% off. We also have a sale on four workout programs this month. Maps Starter, Maps Transform, Maps Anabolic and Maps performance. They're all 50% off. Go to maps fitnessproducts.com use the code New Year 50 for the discount T shirt.
- [01:56]
Justin Andrews
And it's T shirt time.
- [01:58]
Adam Schafer
Ah, shit, Doug. You know it's my favorite time of the week.
- [02:01]
Justin Andrews
Five winners this week. Three for Apple podcasts, two for Facebook. The Apple podcast winners are Z Test, mama flowers and VI's 15. And for Facebook, we have Nikki Monroe and Cody Orms. All five of you are winners. Send a name I just read to iTunes. Mindpumpmedia.com include your shirt size and your shipping address and we'll get that shirt right out to you.
- [02:23]
Sal DeStefano
All right, real quick.
- [02:24]
Doug
If you love us like we Love you. Why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs or training gear over@mypumpstore.com. i'm talking right now. Hit pause, head on over tomypumpstore.com. that's it.
- [02:36]
Adam Schafer
Enjoy the rest of the show.
- [02:38]
Sal DeStefano
The magic macronutrient. I actually used to make fun of this, but the data is clear. There is a magic macronutrient. It actually doesn't matter what your goal is. It's protein. And we're gonna talk about the studies on protein, what it does for you. Regardless of your goal, this is something you should take seriously. Let's talk about protein. Let's get into it.
- [02:59]
Adam Schafer
I mean this is. If you've listened to the podcast for, for longer than a, you know, three weeks, you've probably heard us hammer this. Yeah, hammer this home. I mean I, last night I had a phone call from Katrina's brother in law who actually just recently stayed at the Park City house. So he was actually calling me and thanked me and said what, what amazing stay it was. And he's like, hey, I wanted to get your, your thoughts too on my diet and this and that and you know, when I, when I, when I talk to family and friends, I think they always expect, you know, me to lay out like this elaborate. Yeah, yeah. And I go, listen, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you something that I know is, is difficult for people to do consistently, but it will radically change your body if you just trust me and do these things like I've, I already got. He's following a math 15 programs. I've got the programming side. I know he's not doing worthless stuff. He's got good workout. It's like all I want you to do is think about protein every day. Your goal is 200 grams of protein every day. And I don't want you to do it sometimes or occasionally every now and then I think that's all you like. I'm not even going to talk to you about calories. I'm not going to talk to you about anything else right now. Just focus on that. Because that in itself is for most people in, especially in America is, is a huge challenge because we have sold everybody on these make believe breakfast foods. Every restaurant serves you carbohydrates first. You know, we eat all these sweets and desserts. We drink 900 calories on an average day of, you know, Starbucks drinks and bullshit. And so it's really tough to go after protein centric foods. And yet if you just did that with some Weight training. It'll blow your mind.
- [04:46]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, so here's, here's where we need to go with this because where it gets muddy is when people see the RDA or they hear diet. You know, dietitians communicate this. And here's the truth. The average Westerner doesn't under eat protein. We don't, we're not missing essential protein for the most part. For the most part people aren't not functioning properly. Their bodies aren't falling apart because they're not eating enough protein to do that. That's true, but there's a difference between what is essential and what is optimal. And it's a big difference when it comes to protein, it's a very big difference. If you're a 170 pound man working out and you get 65 grams of protein a day, you're fine, you're fine. But you're so far from optimal, you're so far from what your body will do when you double or triple that number for your body weight. And here's the crazy, this is why I said it was a magic macronutrient. This is where it gets wild. Everybody. Doesn't matter what your goal is. Okay? So the data shows this and our experience has shown us this as well. But the data also supports this. So let's start with fat loss. Okay, Someone might be like, well, I thought I needed to eat less calories. Doesn't protein have calories? How does that possibly make sense? You're telling me that I need to eat more of something that's going to give me more calories and yet I'm trying to lose body fat. That makes no sense. Well, here's how it works. So first we'll talk about the studies that compare calorically equivalent diets, one being high protein, in the context of what we mean when we say high protein. So not more than the rda, but much more. What this looks like is about a gram of protein per pound of body weight in a person that's not obese. If you're really obese, use lean body mass. But for the average person, this is, we typically would say your target body weight. So you're 170 pound man, you're gonna chase 170 grams of protein a day. Okay, when you compare two diets, same calories, one of them 170 grams of protein, the other one 70 grams of protein. So the difference would be the 70 gram of protein. One might have more carbs and fats to make up the difference. Here's what we find the higher protein diet results in more fat loss and more muscle gain or more muscle preservation, depending on where the calories are at. In other words, the person trying to lose weight keeps more muscle because the protein's higher, which then results in better fat loss later on as well. Here's the second part to it. For most people, especially in the initial stages, especially in the first year or so, eating that much protein produces a tremendous amount of satiety. And so it naturally, naturally. I love things that naturally control calories. It's so hard when you're trying to lose body fat to eat less. You're hungry, cravings, you gotta fight that all the time. We're surrounded by food so easy to get.
- [07:52]
Doug
It's the natural ozempic.
- [07:53]
Sal DeStefano
What if I could get. Exactly. What if I could get your calories down because your appetite goes down a little bit. Isn't that amazing? Hitting that high protein target does it. And that's just fat loss.
- [08:03]
Adam Schafer
I, I love that you went this way. And, and I tied it to the conversation I had because. So this was about, it was a 45 minute plus drive last night, it was raining and so I was in traffic. So it was a long conversation and we went all over the place with cortisol and insulin and stress. And so like I gave like the simple advice and then I broke down like all the science and the reason why it's this simple and why I want you to focus on this. And like at the end of the call he was like, I don't know why it took me this long to call you. You've absolutely blown my mind in like 45 minutes of you. Would you please, would you do this? Would you have a call with my wife? I'm like, I'm going to blow your mind again. I'm like, the advice is exactly the same. The only, the only difference is she needs to have about 130 to 140 grams instead of the 200 grams. That's the end. I want you to give her all this. I want you to tell her everything I just told you to do and why to do it and all the things. But the only difference is just have her focus on hitting 130 to 140 consistently every single day.
- [09:00]
Sal DeStefano
Because that's her target.
- [09:00]
Adam Schafer
That's her target regardless of they had different little bit different goals. He wants to build some muscle in this that she wants to reduce bond. It's like the, the advice is exactly the same. And I said, and then listen, go do that for 30 to 60 days. Religiously don't miss. Make that a focus. Hit your workouts and just do that. And then I'm going to show you so much results, positive results, that I'll know if you did it, because you're going to come back to me going like, oh, my God, my energy's up. I feel stronger. I can see my body changing. Even though the scale has it. You're both going to say that to me, and then I'm going to give you another layer to this and, like, little tweaks so that. But just go do that for both of you. Go do that.
- [09:43]
Sal DeStefano
That's right.
- [09:43]
Adam Schafer
And he was just like, oh, okay.
- [09:46]
Sal DeStefano
Well, here's another one where people. Because people will think fat loss, does it really apply? We covered that. Then people will say, does it apply to endurance? I just want stamina and endurance. And I heard that for endurance to stamina, I need a lot of carbohydrates. Now, it is true that carbohydrates are a preferred source of energy. So what I'm about to communicate does not mean, don't eat carbs on top of this. Okay, so you still need the carbs for endurance and stamina. But does high protein, like the way we're communicating it, a gram of protein per pound of body weight, does that also benefit endurance athletes? Yes, it does. It does. The data shows this. And now. Now how. Is it because I have more energy, I have more calories to burn? No, it's because your recovery is so much better. One of the challenges with any kind of exercise or training, especially endurance training, repetitive stress. That's right. Endurance training is unique in the sense that to a limit, the more you. Because there's always a limit. Right. But the more you do, the better. This is not true with strength training. Strength training is much more. Hit the signal, hit it. Right. Build muscle endurance. Of course, there's still a limit. But the more you can get away with, so long as you're not beating yourself up too much, the better your adaptation is in terms of endurance. That's why endurance athletes trade so much more than someone who's just trying to build strength and muscle. Okay. That's why that happens. But the limiting factor oftentimes. And if you're listening, you know this. If you run marathons, you're a triathlete or you're an athlete, you're a water polo player, where you're just training your butt off. Like, what prevents you from training more is just you can't recover. Yeah. Bump your protein intake and watch what I just had this. It just clicked with my brother in law. So he does Jiu Jitsu and Jiu Jitsu is pretty intense. It's two and a half hour class, you know, an hour that is, you're sparring. He's a grown man wrestling, it's tough. He's also got a job and he's got a, he's got two kids. One of them is, you know, under the age of four months and he's trying to go to Jiu Jitsu four days a week and also do like one day a week of strength training. And he's always talking about, man, I'm sore, I'm stiff, hurting myself. And so I said, listen, either you dramatically reduce the amount of training you do or you do what I tell you with protein. He's like, well, aren't I going to gain body fat? I'm trying to get leaner. I said, just. And so we've had this conversation over and over again. So he finally, finally did it. And a week in, this is seven days in, he's texting me. He's like, dude. He's like, I can't believe it. Yeah. I can't believe how much more energy I have, how much stronger I am. He's like, I feel like I'm getting leaner.
- [12:15]
Doug
And I thought it was a placebo at first, right?
- [12:17]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. He's like, I don't know if it's a placebo or whatever. By the way, this, this was a weekend. We're now three weeks in. He's totally sold. He's like, what a huge. Makes a huge difference. And the reason why he was losing stamina, endurance in his training was because he just wasn't able to recover because he didn't have the building blocks for recovery which come from.
- [12:35]
Doug
Oh, you're still breaking down tissue.
- [12:37]
Sal DeStefano
That's right.
- [12:38]
Doug
That's the thing. And like joints, ligaments and, and tendons, everything else benefits from those amino acids and protein. I mean, it's just part of the rebuilding process.
- [12:47]
Adam Schafer
The good news is the message is getting out.
- [12:50]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [12:50]
Adam Schafer
Before you walked in the studio, I was just sharing with Justin. I saw a commercial last night watching basketball from Chipotle. And Chipotle now has a high protein menu.
- [12:59]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. Wow.
- [13:00]
Adam Schafer
And it's dedicated to 36, 42 and 60 grams of protein meal. Yes, yes. And so you're seeing these companies pop up all, all. I mean, Chris Power is an example. This a new partner of ours that's, you know, high protein pretzels, like, so the message is getting out on on the value of. Of protein. And you're starting to see more and more companies.
- [13:24]
Sal DeStefano
I'm glad you brought up Chris Power. We're going to put a pin in that and go back to it because at the end of this, we're going to talk about the challenges with hitting protein. And I think Chris Power is a great. Yeah.
- [13:33]
Adam Schafer
Because it solves.
- [13:34]
Doug
Yes.
- [13:35]
Sal DeStefano
And again, I'm not going to. We won't go here yet, but I will say this. What we're saying is a lot harder than you think. So people here listening to this right now are like, oh, cool, I'm gonna go. Like, it's. Getting it from Whole Foods is very challenging, very difficult. Okay. So we talked about endurance and recovery. We talked about fat loss, muscle building. Probably don't need to spend a lot of time here. This is where it's sold the most. But it makes a huge difference when it comes to muscle building. Big difference, everybody. If you're strength training and you're the typical female consuming 60 grams of protein a day and the typical male eating 90 grams of protein a day, and you suddenly start hitting protein targets with your same strength training routine, it will feel like you're taking steroids all of a sudden. It will literally feel like, what is happening to my body? In other words, it's not subtle. It's a big difference in strength and muscle gain. And over two months, three months, four months, massive visible changes for muscle building. It makes a huge, huge difference.
- [14:33]
Adam Schafer
It's such a huge difference. This is why I said to him, exact same advice. And I said, I'll know when you call me back in 30 to 60 days if you took it or not, because I know the response I'll get. And I'll know. I said, I'll know if you were inconsistent with it. Yeah, I'll know if you had some days he hit. You didn't have it, because it. It won't be so profound. But if you religiously hit that and you stay consistent with just your. He was already consider he's been training for a year. And he's like, that's why he was coming to me. Because, like, I've been training for a year. I'm not seeing any results, right? So I'm like, here's the program that's taken care of. I know that. Stick to that. Which, by the way, reduced his volume significantly, Right. He was trained six days a week, hour and a half, two hours in the gym every single day. Way too much. Put him on a Maps 15 protocol said don't do anything more, more and explained why all that and said hit your protein intake and then I will know if you do it. Because the, the results that you will feel and see will be profound in just 30 to 60 days. And then I'll give you the next layer.
- [15:29]
Sal DeStefano
It's wild. So just speaking from personal experience, I know this. I'm in this fitness space. I've been communicating it for years. I, I've been training people for years. I never consumed the low protein diet, but for a long time I would say I probably averaged. It's still considered high protein, about 150 grams a day. At one point it was limited by gut health. I got that solved relatively recently. I'd say over the past maybe couple years, this is the first time I've ever consistently, consistently meaning every single day, eaten my body weight and protein. So I'm eating 220 grams of protein every single day right now. Sometimes a little more, sometimes around 230. Oh my gosh, the difference is from 150 to 230. And by the way, my calories were still high before. I've actually swapped out some of my other macros for the protein because it does hammer your appetite. Because I feel it. I eat the protein. I'm like, oh my God, I barely want any of this rice, you know, type of deal. The difference in my training is insane. First of all, I have. This is one that I didn't realize. I have less pain, which makes sense because it's a recovery thing. Yes, my joints feel better. The insertion points of my muscles, which can sometimes get stressed if I start lifting really heavy, it's not really happening anymore. When I'm training, I built muscle, that's for sure. I think I gained like 4 pounds of lean body mass, if I had to guess.
- [16:51]
Doug
That's funny you say that. Yeah, because I noticed that too. But I attribute it because I know when I increase my water intake that has a similar effect with pain. But the protein, for, for sure, when in recovery, it makes a big difference.
- [17:04]
Adam Schafer
I, you know, early days, the podcast, we used to keep this ongoing tally of Adam Wright sour I type of situation here, I'm gonna bring this back.
- [17:14]
Doug
Because back in the beginning, this is.
- [17:15]
Adam Schafer
Something I've been screaming on the podcast forever. And I, of all of us, I'm the guy who repeated a million times, who tracks like crazy. And I know that. And like all of us in here, we know the benefits of protein. We go after this and that. But every time I go to track, I go, damn, I am still not hitting optimal numbers. And when I get up to optimal numbers, it is a radical difference. I just, I build way more muscle, I recover way better.
- [17:44]
Sal DeStefano
Sleep better. Yes, sleep better.
- [17:46]
Adam Schafer
But it's hard. It is hard to do it consistently day in and day.
- [17:51]
Sal DeStefano
It's also, and by the way, we're speaking in the context of you also exercise. Okay. Because of course you can throw extra protein.
- [17:59]
Doug
You just sit on the couch and just eat.
- [18:01]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [18:01]
Sal DeStefano
And there's probably some benefit, you know, to it, but it's really largely overstated. Unless you're also strength training or working out. Okay. So I gotta make sure I say that. Cause you got a bunch of couch potatoes suddenly.
- [18:13]
Adam Schafer
I don't think that's a lot. I think that's a very small. Even though I have heard some people that listen to the podcast that don't exercise. But it's very rare. I think most people are actively.
- [18:21]
Doug
It could be a weird choice for them to listen to.
- [18:23]
Sal DeStefano
It also helps with longevity. And so, so the data on this is clear as well. As you get older, more protein becomes even more important because it improves frailty. So as you get older, besides the main things, heart disease, cancer, all that kind of stuff, frailty is a big problem. And strength training, you gotta do it. Protein amplifies the hell out of it. And it makes a big difference around longevity. But now there's challenges around this because if you're listening to this and you've never done it consistently, you might have done it a day here, day there, but do it every single day, Every single day. Because this is what you got. You got to be consistent with it. Listen, it's not easy. It is not easy for me to get 220 grams of protein.
- [19:03]
Doug
If you're, if it's not intentionally, like you're not thinking about it constantly, you're behind. And it's, it's pretty much a fact for me personally. And I know, like anybody else I've told this to. And it's like, you know, it seems like, oh, well, that's, that's simple.
- [19:18]
Sal DeStefano
I have to eat four meals with 50 grams of protein, plus throw a shake in. It's really hard. So where I'm going with this is a try doing it with whole foods, because this helps with body composition, kind of naturally controls calories. B. When you find it to be very difficult as you're tracking and you're missing by 30 or 40. This is why protein supplementation or protein snacks can be quite beneficial. You brought up earlier, Chris Power. We'll bring them up. These are pretzels. They're very palatable. You eat one of these bags in a day. What is it, like 30 grams of protein?
- [19:53]
Adam Schafer
Almost 28. So they, they range between, I think 26 is the lowest to 29. I'm eating a bag or two every day right now just because it's, it's so convenient and easy. It's easy for me while I'm driving to and from. It's not messy. It's like. And for me to be able to snack on something when and, and, and I don't, I don't know if you guys are this way, but when I'm aggressively going after my protein, I don't find a lot of times where I'm actually hungry. So I have to like, that's right. I have to find times where, hey, you know what?
- [20:21]
Doug
Work.
- [20:22]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, I'm not hungry enough to sit down and eat a steak and rice meal right now, but I could snack on some pretzels. They'll give me an extra 26 or 28 grams of protein. So that's what I find myself too because to your point, when you are so protein centric, it's very satiating. And if I'm in build mode right now. And so for, in order for me to do that, I've got to train getting those extra grams of protein in and even when I'm not quote unquote hungry. And so having a salty snack that I can eat while I'm driving between meals and stuff like that has been huge for me. So it's.
- [20:53]
Sal DeStefano
What flavor are you doing, by the way?
- [20:55]
Adam Schafer
I, so, so originally the hot ones, but the hot ones, I, I need something to wash it down with. So those are the best for driving. But I actually, so sesame was what I had yesterday and then the green ones which are like, I think Sesame sea salt.
- [21:07]
Sal DeStefano
Oh yeah.
- [21:09]
Adam Schafer
I, I haven't had one I, I, I haven't really liked.
- [21:11]
Sal DeStefano
So even they hit, they hit it out of the bowl.
- [21:13]
Adam Schafer
They're good, they're, they're all really, really good. So I'm, I don't know, I'm toggling between the, the sea salt one and then there's a, the purple one which I forget what the name. I gotta remember the names of all.
- [21:23]
Justin Andrews
Everything Bagel.
- [21:24]
Sal DeStefano
Everything.
- [21:24]
Adam Schafer
Everything, yes, the everything one and then the sea salt one are becoming my, my new favorites. I still like the jalapeno ones, but they got a kick to them.
- [21:32]
Sal DeStefano
So if I don't have something to.
- [21:34]
Adam Schafer
Wash them down with, like my mouth.
- [21:35]
Sal DeStefano
Will Be on fire. You know what's interesting too about this? You hear a lot of talk about stabilizing blood sugar, insulin sensitivity. Protein has a really interesting effect on that. It's quite remarkable. You eat a high protein diet. You eat first of all, first thing in the morning. Let's say you're going to eat garbage. I'm not advocating this, so this is not what I'm telling you to do, but they've done studies on this. I'm about to eat garbage food. I'm about to have donuts. But right before I eat the donuts, I eat 30 grams or 40 grams or 50 grams of whole natural food based protein. So ate that first, then ate the donuts.
- [22:07]
Adam Schafer
You'll eat half the donuts.
- [22:08]
Sal DeStefano
Not only will I eat half, but let's say the same amount. Blood sugar doesn't go as crazy.
- [22:12]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. Which you won't.
- [22:13]
Sal DeStefano
You won't. No.
- [22:13]
Adam Schafer
Also in real life, I'll bet my last dollar.
- [22:16]
Sal DeStefano
No, you're right.
- [22:17]
Adam Schafer
If you go, that's real life, right? Yeah. In real life, if you go in and you say, because I used to have to do this like so when I, when I finally learned that I was way under eating protein and that was what was keeping me, the 180 pound kid who couldn't build any muscle with all the movement I do, I was like, okay, I, I'm not getting enough protein and I'm eating too much junk food is what was happening. So I was like, okay, I gotta go get the protein first. Then I get the protein. And I would give myself that permission to have the donuts, to have the milkshake, to do things. But oh boy, it was so hard to drink or eat or do that thing that is super palatable after I had that high protein. So it's, it's, it's for the, the hard gainer. It's difficult to do that. And if you're the person who struggles with weight, it's one of the best hacks strategies to maintain your weight.
- [23:02]
Sal DeStefano
Well, so what happens with this is if you, if you did chase a bulk or a cut, okay, let's say you just hit your target number. Let's say, okay, my target body weights, this is grams of protein, whole natural foods. Here's what kind of happens is what I've experienced with clients and this is the feedback we've gotten with our trainers is that you're, without tracking your calories, you're just eating protein. You're eating whole natural foods. Eating the protein first, your strength, training your calories. Naturally go up and down. And what dictates your appetite is if your body's building or losing body fat. And so you actually get this nice body composition change. Not these big dramatic swings, but rather over time. I get leaner build muscle. I get leaner build muscle. Because your appetite is driven by your training, by your strength training, which is quite remarkable. And I'll take it a step further. If the average person did nothing else but. But just did that, stuck to whole natural foods, we would solve obesity. It would solve without them having to worry about anything complicated. And I gotta track this and count that. It makes that big of a difference, everybody. It's crazy. And again, for me, who's done this for as long as I have, I can't believe the difference between 150 to 170 grams of protein to 220. Like, the difference in my training is. It's silly. That's the word I wanna use. It's actually quite silly. Speaking of silly, another point for me. Have you got. Yeah, you got it, dude. Adam won South.
- [24:24]
Adam Schafer
It's been a long time. It's been a long time since we did that tally. And hearing you say that right now, I'm like, man, I remember saying this for a long time to this guy.
- [24:32]
Sal DeStefano
You know what I'm saying? It's so true. Hey, do.
- [24:34]
Adam Schafer
Do you.
- [24:35]
Sal DeStefano
You might know this story that's here. Do you know the story of FedEx and how they almost went bankrupt?
- [24:39]
Adam Schafer
Yes. Yes. Okay.
- [24:41]
Sal DeStefano
This is the craziest.
- [24:43]
Adam Schafer
And he went and get. He gambled. He put it on roulette. Yes, of course.
- [24:47]
Sal DeStefano
Yes. Yes, bro, I'm going to read roulette.
- [24:48]
Adam Schafer
Yes. He put it on him. He put it on black or red or whatever.
- [24:51]
Sal DeStefano
This is like. This is like. I don't even know if this is good advice. I mean.
- [24:55]
Adam Schafer
Oh, it's not.
- [24:56]
Sal DeStefano
I don't think you should do this. No, I'll read to you.
- [24:59]
Adam Schafer
In fact, actually, Sal, I bet you this has happened a lot more times.
- [25:03]
Sal DeStefano
Than we know about the opposite. Yeah, I'm sure.
- [25:04]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [25:05]
Doug
People have heard this story and then been like, oh, this is like, their answer to solve their problem.
- [25:10]
Sal DeStefano
I mean, he put everything online. So 1973, FedEx was losing $30,000 per day. They had $5,000 in the bank and a $24,000 fuel bill due on Monday. Almost 400 employees were about to lose their jobs. So that's what was happening at this moment. Let me get this to come up again. So this CEO is like, what am I gonna do? How am I Gonna get this company to come out. Let me pull it up again. Because it froze. So here's what happened. They lost, prior to this, $29 million in 26 months. He asked his employees to hold off on cashing their paychecks. Just, hey, guys, like, please hold off. I'm gonna figure this out. Pilots were using their own credit cards to fuel their planes, hoping to be reimbursed later.
- [25:54]
Doug
Oh, my God.
- [25:55]
Sal DeStefano
Friday, they said, hey, look, if your fuel bill isn't paid by Monday, your planes aren't gonna fly. So what he did is he went to. By the way, he created the idea for FedEx. And his econ class got a C on it. So he talks about this, and he's like, my professor. He was right, dude. I can't do this. By the way, he.
- [26:19]
Doug
Students are the best entrepreneurs.
- [26:21]
Sal DeStefano
This guy apparently was a badass. So he was in the Marine Corps. He survived, you know, childhood arthritis as a kid. He, you know, he did two tours in Vietnam. He's like, I'm not going down without a fight. So he literally withdrew the company's remaining funds and went to Vegas. Dude.
- [26:39]
Doug
Oh, my God.
- [26:40]
Sal DeStefano
And he played blackjack.
- [26:42]
Adam Schafer
Oh, it was blackjack.
- [26:43]
Sal DeStefano
I thought he was all on black blackjack, dude.
- [26:46]
Doug
Okay.
- [26:46]
Sal DeStefano
And this is. So he tells a story.
- [26:48]
Doug
If that's better odds, he would win.
- [26:49]
Sal DeStefano
A few hands, lose a. At one point, he was up 35 grand. Then he lost almost all of it. But he ended. And he ended on top. By Sunday night, he turned the money into $27,000. He paid the fuel bill, kept the planes flying for one more week, and then ended up getting within weeks, got an investor to give him $11 million. Of course, now they're a massive company. Yeah, dude.
- [27:14]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [27:14]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [27:15]
Adam Schafer
What a great story.
- [27:16]
Sal DeStefano
That could have gone bad.
- [27:17]
Doug
Psychotic week.
- [27:20]
Adam Schafer
I can't remember what I was watching on Netflix. There's.
- [27:22]
Sal DeStefano
There's.
- [27:23]
Adam Schafer
There's the. That happens all the time. The other way.
- [27:26]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, yeah. That's not a good strategy. Yeah.
- [27:29]
Adam Schafer
Then he gets a jump and all this other. So I have a update. When you shared the squatter guy.
- [27:39]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, the squatter hunter.
- [27:40]
Adam Schafer
I just got. So, I mean, my. My. My business wheels. Yeah. Just start going like, this is a great business idea. I mean, I. So I went down and, like, I looked more into his story, and so that. So listen to how there's another layer to this. So why. Why it's so difficult is. It's a. Squatting is a civil thing, and so the cops can't. There's not. They're not. You're not breaking a. A law that you could. They could literally do anything about. So it's like you have to take.
- [28:08]
Sal DeStefano
This to court, which is weird because they are breaking. They're breaking and entering.
- [28:11]
Adam Schafer
Well, but that's the part they can't prove. You know what I'm saying? And so that's the, the. That's where this gets off. So a. A large percent of percentage of these people that squat like this are also ex criminals or have done other things like that. And so a lot of times they're on parole. So one of the ways he expedites this is he brings guns to the house. So he gets the landlord to rent one of the rooms to him. Legally signs and he rents one of the rooms and he brings guns house. Then he calls the cops because if you're on parole, you can't be anywhere near the. The in.
- [28:45]
John (Caller)
In.
- [28:45]
Sal DeStefano
So he plays their game and uses laws against them too. Yeah.
- [28:48]
Adam Schafer
And then the cops actually can remove him and.
- [28:51]
Sal DeStefano
Wonderful.
- [28:52]
Adam Schafer
Well, how brilliant is that? So like that's like. So that's like. That's hack one right there. It's just like. There's like a good. I can't remember the percentage was. But it's a high percentage criminals of.
- [29:00]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [29:00]
Adam Schafer
Of these squatters have criminal records and. Or on parole. And so he's like, they're on parole. I've got weapons that I am allowed to legally have. Brings them in, rents the room. He has his guns and stuff house. They no longer can be in the same house as those weapons. And they're legally can get removed now. Isn't that brilliant?
- [29:17]
Sal DeStefano
I love that.
- [29:18]
Adam Schafer
I know.
- [29:19]
Sal DeStefano
I just think it's so crazy that we have laws that make it hard to kick someone who's out of your house. Yeah. Illegally. Yeah. I think that's so crazy. And like.
- [29:32]
Doug
And protect burglars from like invading your house.
- [29:35]
Adam Schafer
You know what? This is a break. You know, this is such a win though, for me, for humans. Because there's. For every stupid law and stupid thing that we do, someone smarter comes around and finds.
- [29:47]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [29:48]
Adam Schafer
How to use that against you. Or a loophole or somebody who, who takes advantage in business. Somebody else goes like, let me create a business that will just bankrupt that business by doing. But you know what I'm saying, Like sooner or later, even.
- [30:02]
Doug
Even sometimes it takes a while.
- [30:03]
Adam Schafer
It does it feel. And it feels like that one took a while because you've heard of. You've heard many horror stories of squatters and it's like, watch this go Continue to go viral and people learn and figure this out. And now as a landlord, you're like, oh, I'm just going to my uncle who's got this huge gun collection.
- [30:19]
Sal DeStefano
I'm going to rent a room to him.
- [30:20]
Adam Schafer
He's going to show up there. And if those people are on parole, they're out like that. And then your only hard one is if someone is not on parole. But I mean, the percentage likelihood of someone's willing to do something like that, probably done other shady stuff in their life.
- [30:34]
Doug
Something so rewarding. And like, you see these videos too. When they catch like a lot of the, the fraud overseas where they're like.
- [30:43]
Adam Schafer
Do the call center.
- [30:44]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, I love those. And they.
- [30:45]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [30:45]
Doug
And they, they hijack their cameras, they hijack their computer.
- [30:49]
Sal DeStefano
Love those.
- [30:50]
Doug
And they show them everything and who's.
- [30:52]
Sal DeStefano
There and they freak out.
- [30:53]
Doug
Yes. And I just, I just, I personally just love that because it's just like, dude, these people just are just literally taking advantage full on knowing that they're ripping and stealing. And it's like there's no recourse. It's like we just need recourse.
- [31:08]
Sal DeStefano
We need all this. There are.
- [31:09]
Doug
Come back.
- [31:09]
Sal DeStefano
There's lots of videos of people that make like fake delivery boxes.
- [31:14]
Adam Schafer
Yes.
- [31:15]
Sal DeStefano
They like explode like blue paint.
- [31:16]
Adam Schafer
The bikes. Yeah. The bike stealing ones.
- [31:21]
Doug
Of course there's gonna be people that get mad because they get hurt. But hey, play stupid games.
- [31:26]
Adam Schafer
These are the good things on the Internet. I feel like these are the, these.
- [31:28]
Sal DeStefano
Are the good things. I mean, I feel bad when it's like some like, you know. Cause sometimes you'll see like some, some like homeless dude that looks like he's not well. You know, like, I could feel bad for that.
- [31:37]
Doug
Sure.
- [31:38]
Sal DeStefano
But like the guys, like the people that drive up, they get out of the car and take your package.
- [31:41]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. Right.
- [31:42]
Sal DeStefano
And then, you know, they rig the package. They're like one dude rigged this package to blow up fart spray and blue paint.
- [31:49]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [31:49]
Sal DeStefano
And it like waits till they're in the car so the car will start to take off. And you say, but if there's no.
- [31:53]
Doug
And they'll be like, ah, there's no consequences or deterrent. You invite it.
- [31:57]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [31:58]
Doug
And this is what we see all the time living in the state. We see what that result is and it just becomes a number. That is insane. And now it's like, oh, we can't do anything about it. Well, you know, we invited.
- [32:11]
Adam Schafer
Well that. This, this quarter hunter thing is so cool to me and probably our listeners that are in other states are like, who cares? Not that big of a deal. In California, this is a big deal. Like, if in California, everybody who's probably listening, who knows somebody you know, somebody you know, somebody you probably know, a landlord.
- [32:27]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, my sister.
- [32:28]
Adam Schafer
Happens. Yes. Our friend. We've had, like, almost everybody I know that owns property in California has had a guy.
- [32:36]
Sal DeStefano
The guy wouldn't leave. It took him eight months to get him out. And when he left, he put holes in the wall. Destroyed the. The whole place.
- [32:45]
Doug
Yeah.
- [32:46]
Sal DeStefano
When he left. Tons of money. What? It's like. It's unbelievable.
- [32:49]
Adam Schafer
Did you share this squatter hunter thing to him?
- [32:51]
Sal DeStefano
No.
- [32:51]
Adam Schafer
Oh, you did it.
- [32:52]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, it was a long time ago.
- [32:53]
Adam Schafer
So what? You know, he'll apprec.
- [32:55]
Sal DeStefano
Sensitive. He still talks like a little salt.
- [32:58]
Doug
In the wound on that.
- [32:59]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, yeah. No, it's. That's what I said. So, like, people maybe in the. The rest of the country is like, what? That's ridiculous. That is. But here, it's like. It's a hard thing to deal with.
- [33:07]
Sal DeStefano
Dude, I gotta bring something up to you guys. So you guys remember we've talked about this on the show a few times. I'm gonna pull it up. I've talked about this. This. It's a. It's a drug. It's a compound that. Bodybuilders. That I would say the most courageous body.
- [33:22]
Adam Schafer
Oh, dynamite.
- [33:24]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. So it's called dnp. Yeah. And it's.
- [33:26]
Adam Schafer
It's in dynamite.
- [33:27]
Sal DeStefano
Right. It's. It's used in making explosives. And what it is, is. And I know the story behind it, by the way. I'll pull it up for you. So what it does is it's called a mitochondrial uncoupler.
- [33:39]
Adam Schafer
And so it cooks your inside well.
- [33:41]
Sal DeStefano
So. So here's what happens when. When. When. I don't know the whole process, but when your body's producing energy, if it becomes inefficient, you get leaks of energy, and this causes you to burn more calories. So mitochondrial uncoupling means that some of this energy just gets turned into heat. And so as a result, you just. Your metabolism speeds up. Sure. Okay, so they discovered this in the 1930s. So I'll read it for you. During World War I, this is when they discovered this. Munitions workers in France lost weight and had high temperatures. Some died. Oh, wow.
- [34:18]
Doug
This is how they figured it out.
- [34:19]
Sal DeStefano
This is how they figured out. Scientists discovered that this was caused by a chemical at the factory called dmp. So what it does is it disrupts mitochondrial energy production and increases metabolism by the way you look great, by the way.
- [34:34]
Doug
I've just been making shells.
- [34:38]
Sal DeStefano
Hey, listen, do my job. Listen, this is. I love this. Classic.
- [34:41]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, this is classic bodybuilders.
- [34:43]
Sal DeStefano
No, no, no. But here's. Here's what's funny.
- [34:44]
Adam Schafer
Only a few died.
- [34:45]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. But everybody else got shredded. Here's what's funny about this.
- [34:49]
Doug
Like, cancer.
- [34:50]
Sal DeStefano
So this happened in. In. During World War I, right? In the 1930s. It got. It got. It was one of the first weight loss drugs that were marketed so you can actually buy a DMP. Oh, you could buy it in the 1930s. Wow. It was remarkably effective, but was eventually banned to its severe toxic effects. You guys, well, listen, the dose that makes you lose weight and the lethal dose, really close.
- [35:11]
Adam Schafer
That's what they say, dude.
- [35:12]
Doug
Right on that line.
- [35:13]
Sal DeStefano
The reason why I'm reading this is because scientists are studying because the dmp. I don't want to encourage anybody because, look, I'll tell you guys. I know a pro bodybuilder who's used dmp.
- [35:24]
Adam Schafer
So do I.
- [35:24]
Sal DeStefano
You know who he is?
- [35:25]
Adam Schafer
Yes, I do, too.
- [35:26]
Sal DeStefano
He told me the story of when he did it. He goes, bro. He goes, I took it. I started sweating like crazy. He goes, my sweat was yellow. He's like, made my sheets turn yellow. He goes, I had, like, a fever. And he goes. And it was crazy. And your workout performance sucks. You feel like you hold a little water, so you can't even tell. You get leaner. Then you come off of it. He's like, you're suddenly shredded. I'm like, did you do it again? He goes, no, dude, I think I almost died. But so. Sounds horrible. So scientists are studying DMP because they're like, okay, is there a way we could create drugs that do something similar but that are safe? And what they're doing. That's exactly what they're doing. So researchers have developed experimental compounds that do kind of what DMP does, but is safe. Now they have. Obviously it's not. It's not approved yet.
- [36:13]
Doug
Unquote.
- [36:14]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, but this is like a legit metallic. You know, fat burners always say, speed up your metasm. They don't do that. No, but this actually would.
- [36:20]
Adam Schafer
So do you guys ever worry about, like, okay, because there's all these crazy stories, 50s, the 30s, like, all these things that we were giving people and taking and doing like that. Like. Like, what is today? What is today?
- [36:35]
Sal DeStefano
Like, what, What?
- [36:37]
Adam Schafer
Like, what. What is that today? Like, there's like, historically, if you went.
- [36:41]
Sal DeStefano
Back something, and now we're like, what?
- [36:43]
Adam Schafer
Did they do exactly? There's. There has been something always in the market that we were mass selling to people and promoting as this thing?
- [36:51]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [36:52]
Adam Schafer
Doesn't it make your wheels turn and go like that's floating around in the market right now?
- [36:56]
Sal DeStefano
Well, Doug, look up how many. How many approved drugs get taken off the market every year.
- [37:01]
Adam Schafer
It's a lot.
- [37:02]
Sal DeStefano
So they've gone through the process, they've been approved, they've passed all the trials, and then they get taken off because then we discover that they do something else. There's. There's a lot. I mean, I would say every year.
- [37:11]
Adam Schafer
We have a number we looked up and what was it? 75% of all advertises. So all commercials that you hear and see are pharmaceuticals. I would make the argument the 15 of the 25% make up the lawsuits on all the commercials of the. Have you been affected by this whatever call this law firm or whatever. They're. They're 15 to the 20.
- [37:31]
Sal DeStefano
Those commercials crack me up. It's the only reason why I know what mesothelioma is, because those commercials. You ever hear that? I just remember there's like mesothelioma commercials all the time.
- [37:40]
Adam Schafer
If you suffer from.
- [37:41]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Relatively few hundreds that require. Okay. There's hundreds of recalls happen every year for various reasons. Yeah. So few are permanently withdrawn. That's so funny. Doug. Give me the number. Because AI is giving us.
- [37:59]
Justin Andrews
They don't always give you an exact number.
- [38:01]
Adam Schafer
Recalls with the draws, 30 to 1,000 annually. Right there. That was a number.
- [38:05]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. So 4% of all drugs approved in five year periods are completely withdrawn. Which considering our extensive trial just to get through, because it costs a billion dollars on average to take a drug from conception to market and all the testing and stuff.
- [38:21]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [38:21]
Justin Andrews
4% is actually pretty high.
- [38:23]
Sal DeStefano
That is high.
- [38:23]
Justin Andrews
Because if you're taking.
- [38:24]
Sal DeStefano
You're part of that one.
- [38:25]
Justin Andrews
4%, you know, and you're taking this drug and it's not good.
- [38:28]
Sal DeStefano
And that's not to say that the ones that stick around don't have all kinds of other crazy stuff that they just accept.
- [38:33]
Doug
Yeah. Then look at the, the drug companies history in, in wartime and like how they've actually like weaponized a lot of these drugs that we all use and protect and, you know, they just. They gassed people to death.
- [38:45]
Sal DeStefano
Look up, look up 1900s cough syrup ingredients. Just want you guys to see. Have you guys ever seen these before? What cough syrup was, bro, they give it to kids. They give it to kids, bro. You know what's in it? No, heroin.
- [38:56]
Adam Schafer
Heroin?
- [38:56]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, dude.
- [38:57]
Adam Schafer
In cough syrup?
- [38:58]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, for kids, like, legit.
- [39:00]
Justin Andrews
This is in the early 1900s.
- [39:02]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:02]
Doug
Look.
- [39:02]
Justin Andrews
Look at morphine, cannabis, chloroform, alcohol.
- [39:08]
Sal DeStefano
Cannabis, chloroform and alcohol.
- [39:11]
Adam Schafer
If you got caught with that all in your car, they would kill somebody.
- [39:14]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, yeah, but it works. Jimmy fell right asleep.
- [39:19]
Adam Schafer
Cosby cocktail.
- [39:21]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, my son' this terrible cough doctor. He'll sleep tonight, trust me.
- [39:24]
Doug
Take this, Timmy.
- [39:25]
Adam Schafer
My son was hiccuping last night in bed. Before you go to bed, he goes, daddy, I can't stop my hiccups. I said, just hold your breath. And then he's held his breath for a few seconds, he stopped. I'll die if I keep doing that. I said, well, don't hold it that long, bro. Don't hold it that long, bro.
- [39:42]
Sal DeStefano
Isn't that.
- [39:42]
Adam Schafer
Wasn't that.
- [39:43]
Sal DeStefano
Don't Some kids do that if they don't get their way? They hold their breath. I've never known a kid to do that. But. But I've seen, like.
- [39:49]
Adam Schafer
So I have a bad habit that my son has. It's his, and Katrina hates it, and she used to hate it when I used to do it, so. See, and she used to always call me out.
- [39:55]
Sal DeStefano
When you're arguing with Katrina, you hold your breath.
- [39:57]
Adam Schafer
No, when I focus. When I really focus or I'm really into something, I'll hold and then also go.
- [40:04]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, you hear me?
- [40:06]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [40:07]
Sal DeStefano
So I think that's normal.
- [40:08]
Adam Schafer
Is it normal?
- [40:09]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:09]
Adam Schafer
Okay, that's cool.
- [40:10]
Sal DeStefano
But there's. I think some kids, it's a thing. They'll hold their breath till they get their way. And some. Maybe you could look it up, Doug. And some kids will make themselves pass out, and so they get their way. Because you don't want your kid to pass out.
- [40:20]
Adam Schafer
You know what the recommendation dedication that kid has? Yeah. That's a.
- [40:23]
Doug
That's a real stuff.
- [40:24]
Sal DeStefano
You know what the recommendation is?
- [40:25]
Adam Schafer
But that kid does something special when.
- [40:26]
Sal DeStefano
He told him, let him pass out. Yeah.
- [40:30]
Adam Schafer
Is that a real thing? I mean, is that a real thing? I mean, I've heard of a kid doing that, but is that like.
- [40:35]
Sal DeStefano
Is that to get their way put. To get their way? Yeah.
- [40:37]
Doug
I mean, it's a form of a temper tantrum.
- [40:39]
Adam Schafer
Right.
- [40:39]
Doug
Is between that or.
- [40:40]
Adam Schafer
I mean, I. I.
- [40:41]
Sal DeStefano
Hey, I probably.
- [40:43]
Adam Schafer
I would take that over Attention.
- [40:45]
Doug
I know, right?
- [40:45]
Adam Schafer
Just hold your breath.
- [40:46]
Doug
Well, you're looking purple.
- [40:47]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. I'll wake you up when you're done.
- [40:51]
Doug
At least get some air.
- [40:51]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. At least you're at least you're quiet. Yeah. Over there.
- [40:54]
Adam Schafer
So some kids hold their breath during tantes or strong emotions.
- [40:56]
Sal DeStefano
It's usually not just popping. Voluntary reflex. Oh.
- [40:59]
Adam Schafer
Oh, interesting.
- [41:00]
Sal DeStefano
Called a breath holding spell. Wow. I didn't know that.
- [41:03]
Adam Schafer
Oh, that's interesting. So it's not intentional.
- [41:05]
Sal DeStefano
Sometimes passing out briefly.
- [41:07]
Adam Schafer
Wow.
- [41:08]
Sal DeStefano
But generally harmless.
- [41:09]
Adam Schafer
Turning blue, man.
- [41:11]
Sal DeStefano
Kids, dude, let me tell you.
- [41:12]
Adam Schafer
Can you. Can you guys recall the. The most angry or most. The biggest tantrum that your kids ever thrown and what it was for or why? Can you. Can you recall it or does it. Does it all just get blurred into. Into like a. Tantrums?
- [41:27]
Sal DeStefano
Tantrums are pretty.
- [41:28]
Adam Schafer
I feel like there's a lot of parents have a story where it's like, oh, man. That time I took my kid to the grocery store and they didn't get the.
- [41:33]
Sal DeStefano
That thing.
- [41:33]
Adam Schafer
And it was so embarrassing. Like, have you had party?
- [41:35]
Doug
I had to remove, like.
- [41:37]
Adam Schafer
Oh, at a party?
- [41:38]
Doug
Yeah, they didn't want to leave. It was mainly Ethan. But yeah, you didn't want to leave. And it was bad.
- [41:43]
Adam Schafer
Was it like a kids party or something? What kind of party?
- [41:45]
Doug
There was kids there. That was friend. I was actually a party with, like, a bunch of people, and I had to, like. Yeah, it was bad. I had to, like, we had to go off and. And deal with it.
- [41:56]
Sal DeStefano
That's where you, like, grab your. Pick up your kid and like, they're just freaking out.
- [41:59]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [41:59]
Doug
I didn't say anything.
- [42:00]
Sal DeStefano
It was just, like, mechanical, like, we're gone.
- [42:05]
Doug
Actually, Courtney is still there. She's like. And I'm like, we're out of here. Not doing this.
- [42:11]
Sal DeStefano
I. I wasn't there for this one. But my daughter, she. My. My older daughter, she was at the store with her mom, wanted to buy something. Her mom said no, threw a total fit, and somehow knocked her own tooth out. Oh, yeah.
- [42:26]
Adam Schafer
Oh, wow.
- [42:26]
Sal DeStefano
Because she's, like, freaking out and. And her mom was like, all right, whatever. You freak out over there.
- [42:31]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [42:32]
Sal DeStefano
You know, trying to kind of let her do it, and she turns back around, there's blood. She's like, what? She had, like, knocked out her tooth.
- [42:37]
Adam Schafer
Oh, wow.
- [42:38]
Sal DeStefano
She must have, like. Yeah.
- [42:39]
Adam Schafer
Oh, wow. Oh, that's crazy.
- [42:41]
Sal DeStefano
Kids are. I mean, you know, tantrums are interesting. You know, it's funny. There was this. I saw this woman communicating, like, what to do with your kid. Maybe it was even on our show. Was it on our show? We interviewed. But anyway, they said that they're so dysregulated, they can't even control what they're doing.
- [42:57]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:58]
Sal DeStefano
And so trying to talk to them or force them to do anything is like a waste of time. You just got to be with them, let it come, work through the feelings, let that come down, and then go, yeah, yeah.
- [43:08]
Adam Schafer
You know, I. You know, I always talk about how I have. Like, I have the opposite problem, right? Because my son's never thrown a tantrum like that. But then this happens to Katrina more than me because, of course, he challenges her more, right? Because she's mom, and, you know, she was telling me that she was trying to get him to, you know, put his clothes on, and he was just. Just not wanting to do it.
- [43:27]
Sal DeStefano
No.
- [43:27]
Adam Schafer
And he dragged his feet, and she's being a little more, Max, we have to go this and that, and then he'll start crying. I don't like the way you're talking to me. You're raising your voice. And she's like, I am not raising my voice to you. She's not even. She's not doing any of that. But he's so the other way that, like, even any sort of direct, stern, like. Like, direction is enough for him to.
- [43:49]
Sal DeStefano
Be like, yeah, you're yelling at me.
- [43:50]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, you're. It's like, no, no, no, no, I'm not. You do not see.
- [43:54]
Sal DeStefano
It's funny you said that. I just pulled this. I just saved something on that. So this was. This was an article on some studies on kids and their moms, and it says that children save their hardest emotions for their mothers because their nervous systems change around Mom. Mom. Brain scans show stress circuits in a child's brain deactivate five times faster when we reunited with their mother. So when the stress comes down, they feel safe. The feelings all.
- [44:25]
Adam Schafer
You remember that stat? Remember the stat I brought up?
- [44:27]
Sal DeStefano
Right?
- [44:28]
Adam Schafer
Like, it blew my mind when it. When they brought up grandma, teacher, stranger, friend, dad, mom. Who are they most likely to throw tantrums, push back, do all those things. And mom was, like, 97% more likely. So, like. But it was because they feel safest.
- [44:49]
Sal DeStefano
Yes.
- [44:49]
Adam Schafer
And part of a kid learning what they can and can't do, the boundaries, pushing those limits, is when they feel they're safest.
- [44:56]
Sal DeStefano
By the way, I got another side to this, because what the world will constantly. Therapy will communicate this all the time. There's, like, this belief that every feeling must be expressed. Don't hold it in. You gotta say everything. Whatever. There's some truth to it, but it's not all true. They also show in studies that when kids are told to, hey, control Yourself keep it in. Especially boys that their brain circuitry changes and allows them to learn how to control themselves more. So it's actually a skill. So dad stoicism helps. Dad helps kids calm down. Like, you got to learn how to control that. Mom allows a safety for them to express those things. You can't have one without the other. If it's just one, you got a kid.
- [45:40]
Doug
That just the latter part doesn't get brought up enough.
- [45:42]
Sal DeStefano
Because look, real life, Real life means you gotta. You gotta hold your tongue. If I just told you every feeling I had when I was mad, I would have a good relationship with anybody.
- [45:50]
Doug
Yeah.
- [45:50]
Sal DeStefano
I gotta learn how.
- [45:51]
Adam Schafer
Especially, I mean, especially if you're young. Katrina, I talk about this all the time. There, there's. There's appropriate times for him to do. Then there's inappropriate times. Like, for example, not getting your way is not appropriate. Time to be crying. Or it's like, hey, this is because you didn't get a toy or you didn't get to this thing. Like, you don't. You don't cry. That doesn't help you get that. That's not inappropriate feeling that. Like, sometimes we don't do that. Sometimes we do. That's. And then, then there's other times he falls down or he's embarrassed, or there's these things like, hey, this, this is a normal feeling we're having. We work through those feelings. You feel those feelings like, or you're frustrated, you're angry because you couldn't get something done. These are normal. But like doing it on things that like, you, like, we, we, we'll stop that and teach him how to self regulate that emotion. When you're, when it's, it's, it's not.
- [46:36]
Sal DeStefano
Accept there's a balance. There is absolutely such a balance.
- [46:39]
Adam Schafer
It's not all the time. It's not like, feel it, it's okay. It's like, no, no.
- [46:42]
Sal DeStefano
Because if you just have become an.
- [46:44]
Doug
Adult and you freaking lose your mind and your emotions.
- [46:47]
Adam Schafer
That's right. That's right.
- [46:49]
Sal DeStefano
Ugly. And it's unnecessary. You imagine being in a meeting with a bunch of adults and someone's having a bad day and they freak out.
- [46:55]
Doug
And whatever, you become unhirable.
- [46:57]
Sal DeStefano
Get out. Get out of here. But on the flip side, if, look, if you have a household where you can never express anything that militaristic, like, whatever.
- [47:05]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [47:05]
Sal DeStefano
That's repressed. That causes lots of people totally different.
- [47:07]
Adam Schafer
Yep.
- [47:08]
Sal DeStefano
On the other hand, if you have a household where everybody's unhinged all the time, because they get to express her. That's also not good. You got to have both. So it's like, you read the data on moms and dads. It's. It's. It's really amazing how they complement each other. You gotta have both of those.
- [47:22]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [47:22]
Doug
And again, this is why it's. It's always good to have differences. Like, and we gotta highlight the fact that that's important and we need that. We don't need to be homogenized like, the same. Like, yeah. Men and women are not the same.
- [47:35]
Adam Schafer
It's a reason. It's a beautiful thing to watch unfold the teamwork when it's. When it's played that way. Yes, it is. So, like. Like 99 of the time, like, Katrina doesn't get frustrated with it. He stretches those boundaries. She's. But every once in a while, dad comes over and goes like, hey, that's not okay. And that shuts it down.
- [47:54]
Sal DeStefano
Like.
- [47:55]
Adam Schafer
Like, that is literally all I have to do. Because we don't know. I don't normally do that. And that. That ability to play off of each other, like, there's one. Otherwise, mom lets him feel his feelings and express what he's feeling going through this and that. Then there's other times where it's just like, no, we're getting ready for school. We have to be our time. Dad can come and be like, hey, you be. You need to be ready in two minutes. Get going. Listen to your mother.
- [48:15]
Sal DeStefano
Okay, but I do.
- [48:16]
Adam Schafer
Way to play off of each other.
- [48:17]
Sal DeStefano
But I find it interesting, too, because it's like, it's so beneficial to hold your tongue, control what you're about to say because you're pissed off or because you're whatever. There's value to that. But oftentimes what's communicated is, yeah, express yourself. Don't hold it in. Do you know what happens when you talk through anger? Nothing good.
- [48:38]
Adam Schafer
You know why? It's like social media, bro.
- [48:41]
Sal DeStefano
It's crazy. But then you still need to express yourself.
- [48:44]
Adam Schafer
Sure you do.
- [48:44]
Doug
But you got to calm yourself down to express.
- [48:47]
Adam Schafer
It's the way we consume content. It's the extremes. Get the attention and get the likes. Get the shares. Conversation. The conversation is about the extremes. It's either one extreme or the other. And really, it's somewhere in the middle of that. It's like. It's like, yeah, you. You want your kid to be able to express his feelings. You want your kid to be able to. To be able to articulate that. You want them to be. To feel their Feelings, but you also don't want them to run over you. And just like that, they get away. That's how they. Then they manipulate and they use that way. So then.
- [49:13]
Sal DeStefano
So then there's never learn.
- [49:14]
Adam Schafer
And then. And then as a dad, you do need to be stern sometimes. But being stern is not yelling or losing control or.
- [49:21]
Sal DeStefano
No, because that actually is the opposite.
- [49:22]
Adam Schafer
Right. That's what I mean. So it's like we always speak in these absolutes or these extremes when there's this. I mean, again, I think it's a. It's a beautiful, delicate dance between two different sexes that do two different things really, really well. And when done appropriately as a team, it's a beautiful thing. It is. But it doesn't get communicated. It's a better result.
- [49:43]
Sal DeStefano
It is a totally better result. All right. I got some recent studies on shilajit. I didn't know they did. There's so many recent studies on it, which is pretty cool for something that's.
- [49:53]
Adam Schafer
Been around for so long.
- [49:54]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, so this is cool. So there's a 2024 study done on shilajit. They found that shilajit reduced amyloid beta induced cytotoxicity in certain cells in the brain. In other words, probably good for brain health. So neuro.
- [50:12]
Adam Schafer
There's some neuroprotective effects, explain cytotoxicity, explain.
- [50:16]
Sal DeStefano
Toxicity to the cells. So beta amyloid plaques can be toxic to the cells of the brain. I don't think it causes. There's some. There's some debate as to whether it causes Alzheimer's or inflammation or. Yes, yeah. Right, right. So it helps protect the cells.
- [50:29]
Adam Schafer
And that would. What would fall into that category? Are you talking about like microplastics and things like that? Like what would fall.
- [50:34]
Sal DeStefano
Anything that can make the brain inflamed. So high blood sugar, microplastic chemicals, bad sleep, that kind of stuff.
- [50:41]
Adam Schafer
Okay, interesting.
- [50:42]
Sal DeStefano
There's a study in 2025, this was a review of clinical trials that showed that 250mg twice a day for 90 days increased total testosterone free testosterone. Sperm count. Ready for this? By 61%. Motility by 17%. And morphology so that the shapes of the sperm. By 18.9%.
- [51:03]
Adam Schafer
What is the shapes of your sperm? Help. Oh, so you can more torpedo like.
- [51:07]
Sal DeStefano
No, so you can look at sperm under a microscope and you could have enough of them, but they also. They don't have good morphology. So they're deformities. Yes. So it causes infertility. Oh, yeah. So there's a few different Ways you can have infertility with your sperm. One of them, you don't have enough. The other one is that they don't swim well the way that they're shaped. So they look at all that, all that stuff, bone healing. They looked at us. There was a 20, 22.
- [51:32]
Adam Schafer
I'm having. I'm not passing either. I know he's moving on, but I'm like, I know it's wild that we get under a minus picture and we like can look at the different types of little swimmers that you have and be like, sorry guys, you got a lot.
- [51:43]
Sal DeStefano
But they're kind of divorced. It's like a square head. Yeah. Yeah. Those aren't going anywhere.
- [51:46]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. They're not so good to freestyle strokes.
- [51:49]
Doug
Ugly guys.
- [51:50]
Adam Schafer
A lot of backstroke are going with you guys crashing into each other.
- [51:58]
Sal DeStefano
It's swimming the wrong way. Yeah. In 2020, there was a 2022 randomized double blind placebo controlled trial that examined shilajit's effects on bone health in postmenopausal women with osteopenia. So 60 participants got 250 or 500 milligrams of Shilajit extract daily for 48 weeks. There was a dose dependent preservation of bone mineral density in the lumbar spine along with reduced oxidative stress and inflammation. So by itself helped with bone strengthening. There's another study. I have so many. I'll just do a couple of 1. Physical performance trials reviewed in 2025 showed that for eight weeks, the 250-500mg a day enhanced muscle adaptation, reduced fatigue and boost collagen synthesis. Rated for this up to 84% with benefits of skin health and wound healing. This is a great before.
- [52:50]
Adam Schafer
Don't do anymore. I mean I'm. You're still. I'm still on the first one. Just because sperm. Well, yeah, because. Okay, so how does that compare to things like tongue, cat Ali and ashwagandha Other. Like traditional. Other supplements? I don't know.
- [53:04]
Sal DeStefano
It's a good question. What, what to me, what blows me away most about shilajit is all the stuff that it does. It does a lot of things.
- [53:12]
Doug
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Sal DeStefano
I don't know. I don't know what the exact numbers are with Tongkat Ali and I know it helps with. With fertility in men. Yeah. Well, I don't know.
- [53:19]
Doug
Like, are we deficient? Like, because it's. It's one of those things like is this something you find in. In really good soil or like, like where else would you get something similar that would have all These like.
- [53:30]
Sal DeStefano
No, you naturally eat.
- [53:31]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [53:32]
Sal DeStefano
It's weird.
- [53:32]
Adam Schafer
Tar on a tree. I know. It's a random place, right?
- [53:35]
Sal DeStefano
No, it's literally, it's. It's organic material that has been broken down over long periods of time. It oozes out of rocks.
- [53:44]
Doug
Yeah. It's so random.
- [53:46]
Sal DeStefano
Well, so what organifi did is. Doug, what's their dose in their serving? There's a bag right there on there. And I think it's efficacious dose. Right. How much Prima V is in there?
- [53:57]
Justin Andrews
250 milligrams.
- [53:58]
Sal DeStefano
Perfect. So there you go. So you could take that dose or double it. And that's what the studies show in their gummies, which they don't taste bad at all. It tastes good and it's easy to take. The thing with shilajit, though, is you can get crappy shilajit or you can get fake shilajit. Well, I mean, that's Prima V is the source. So if Organifi uses Prima V, Prima V supplies to other people too. So if you want good shilajit, go with organifi or look for well sourced shilajit. But all the studies, you count them all together, like, this is a pretty remarkable.
- [54:28]
Doug
A lot of benefit.
- [54:30]
Adam Schafer
I mean, it's what trips me out.
- [54:31]
Sal DeStefano
Is who's the first person to eat this?
- [54:32]
Adam Schafer
I was just thinking the same thing. I'm like, and then how. How long do you have to do that and within a family for like, people to pass it down as, like, hey, this is working. I noticed something like that's, you know, it's.
- [54:44]
Doug
And I've heard theories. And of course, this gets a little bizarre as you get into it, because you think that, like, the. The trial and error part of that must have been like, okay, you know, Jim died because he ate this. And then, you know, and they all kind of like talk amongst. But there was some theory that a lot of these, like, psychedelics, like mushrooms, like, it sort of gives them some sort of insight and ideas with, like.
- [55:06]
Sal DeStefano
To find other stuff.
- [55:07]
Doug
Things to eat.
- [55:08]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [55:09]
Doug
Which has been the. In terms of advancement.
- [55:12]
Adam Schafer
But I haven't had enough again.
- [55:13]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. I don't know. Hippies aren't inventing a lot of stuff right now.
- [55:17]
Justin Andrews
This is interesting. On shilajit, they observed animals in the mountains.
- [55:21]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, that's of course.
- [55:22]
Justin Andrews
So they noticed large white monkeys migrating to higher altitudes each summer to eat a specific black taright substance that ooze from the rock crevices. The monkeys displayed great vitality and a speedy recovery from injuries which peak their.
- [55:37]
Sal DeStefano
By the way, great vitality means the monkeys were having a lot of fun.
- [55:39]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
- [55:40]
Sal DeStefano
That means, dude, those monkeys are going nuts. Yeah.
- [55:42]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, maybe we should try that.
- [55:43]
Sal DeStefano
Maybe we'll do that to my wife when she's sleeping.
- [55:46]
Adam Schafer
That's what everything every caveman said right there. Every caveman watched.
- [55:50]
Sal DeStefano
That's how they discover horn. Yeah. Sneak this in. Horn of goat weed, is it. Goats would eat it and then they just go fornicate like crazy. And so farmers were like, you know what?
- [55:59]
Adam Schafer
I don't know why that. I didn't know why that didn't dawn on me. That is probably how. Probably a large percentage observing animals first is seeing that. That they, they're acting. We're watching them and their behavior. They eat it. They don't die. You see some sort of note, you pick up like, man, they're having way more sex this week than they were the previous weeks. And you're like, that's interesting.
- [56:20]
Sal DeStefano
This is before cell phones and stuff. Like, you're just bored. Yeah, yeah. Come on, dude. Hey, bro, they were having sex. We got tv.
- [56:28]
Adam Schafer
Everybody in this room watches the nature channel. You know what I'm saying?
- [56:31]
Sal DeStefano
Like, hey, let me tell you guys, we went to. Where were we?
- [56:35]
Doug
This guy's going crazy.
- [56:36]
Sal DeStefano
We were at a zoo. Aurelius was like three and they had tortoises. And we just must have timed it, right? One toward like big giant tortoises. The big ones. One got on the other one's back and started to mate with it. Yeah. And you know, he's three, he doesn't know what's going on. So we're walking over there and I'm like, oh, piggyback ride. And the tortoise went. Was making noises, dude. So he's laughing if I've even heard it. He's copying them. He's like. He's like, papa, listen. What are they doing? I think they're wrestling. I don't know. It was hell loud. Yeah, he still talks about it today. What age?
- [57:13]
Adam Schafer
Okay, what age is that? So. So I'm aware because right now that's still what. It's wrestling, right. That mom and dad do at night.
- [57:19]
Sal DeStefano
I don't know.
- [57:20]
Adam Schafer
What age is it?
- [57:20]
Sal DeStefano
Hide that, bro.
- [57:22]
Adam Schafer
No, of course you hide that.
- [57:24]
Sal DeStefano
What are you guys doing in there?
- [57:26]
Doug
Yeah, turn up the white noise.
- [57:28]
Sal DeStefano
What's that noise happening in there, dude? I don't know. Joy Mode is a science backed formula that is packed with citrulline, arginine, ginseng, vitamin C in efficacious. Doses to support peak performance. By the way, what kind of performance are we talking about in the bedroom? It boosts blood flow. It makes things rise to the occasion. It really does work. It also works as a good pre workout if you want a good pump in the muscles you're training. But again, use it before the bedroom for a better pump. You know where go tryjoymode.com mindpump Use the code mindpump at checkout. Get 20% off. Back to the show.
- [58:13]
Justin Andrews
Our first caller is John from Louisiana.
- [58:15]
Sal DeStefano
What's up, man?
- [58:16]
Adam Schafer
How you doing, John?
- [58:17]
John (Caller)
Y'? All, how's it going?
- [58:18]
Adam Schafer
Good, good, dude.
- [58:19]
Sal DeStefano
How can we help you? Good, good.
- [58:22]
John (Caller)
I guess first I want to say, man, I just, I really appreciate the way that y' all can blend science with experience and then dumb it down for us average people. Y' all do it in such a way, man, that it's changing people's lives. I'll jump straight into my email. I'll just read it to you. I'm a 52 year old male, 5 foot 4. Currently weigh 152 pounds and I'm at about 8% body fat. I resistance train five days a week. I walk 30 to 45 minutes about three times a week. And my diet's pretty consistent, around 2400 calories a day. And I only drink alcohol occasionally, maybe a few times a month. So my goal is to build more muscle. But I took some, some surveys. One I think was a McDonald's and one was a butt survey. And they're saying that I'm around 90% of my genetic potential. So my question is, am I really genetically limited to gaining more, more mass or is it realistic to add another 10 or 15 pounds of lean muscle mass over the next couple of years at my age and my current condition?
- [59:34]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. Well, how long you been strength training for?
- [59:39]
John (Caller)
Off and on since I was in my 20s, but I've gotten serious since I turned 50. I actually started competing as a men's physique.
- [59:47]
Sal DeStefano
Good for you. Are you on any hormones? All natural.
- [59:51]
John (Caller)
I'm all natural right now.
- [59:52]
Sal DeStefano
Good deal.
- [59:53]
Adam Schafer
Oh, wow.
- [59:53]
Sal DeStefano
You said right now. Have you used performance enhancers in the past?
- [59:57]
John (Caller)
I have, yes, sir.
- [59:58]
Sal DeStefano
Okay, so that changes things a bit. Now what I will say is it'll be hard to tell if you're at your quote unquote genetic potential if you're sitting at 8% body fat trying to build. Most guys are not. It's gonna, they're gonna have a tough time building with a body fat percentage below, you know, 11 or even 12.
- [60:22]
Adam Schafer
Especially without any extra hormones. Yeah. Trying to do it naturally would be really tough. That low.
- [60:26]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. Now when you were using performance enhancing drugs, do you, do you know what your lean body mass was then versus now?
- [60:34]
John (Caller)
I mean, when I got on stage, I was a little below 4% body fat.
- [60:39]
Sal DeStefano
Okay. And, but do you know what your lean body mass was reaching in the off season with that or.
- [60:46]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, when you were bulking.
- [60:47]
Sal DeStefano
So it's hard to say, dude. It's really hard to say because you're already, I mean you're obviously jacked and ripped and experienced, but you know, here. And you're also, you know, 52, so that might change things a little bit. But to be honest with you, I don't know, man. 8%. I'd say go on a bulk, 2400 calories. I'll tell you this much. You're not going to gain any muscle at, you know, 2400 calories. We're gonna have to get you over 3000 and then see what happens there. Yeah, yeah.
- [61:15]
Adam Schafer
Not to mention kind of what I.
- [61:16]
John (Caller)
Was hoping you would say. I was just scared to do it on my own because I didn't want to gain any fat. I'm kind of picky about the way I look.
- [61:23]
Sal DeStefano
You gotta have, you're gonna have to gain some fat to gain some muscle.
- [61:26]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [61:26]
Sal DeStefano
You don't have to get a lot of fat.
- [61:27]
Adam Schafer
But not to mention, John, you have that, you have the tools and the knowledge how to get right back down anyways. It's more psychological, you know what I'm saying? Like even if you, even if you went for to up to as high as 12 or 13 body, a guy with your experience and, and muscle memory, I mean going right back down and getting lean would be relatively easy. You know, from that and Sal's Point, you'll just, you'll build much better north of 10% sub 10. Trying to build especially naturally, especially older, just. And also towards whether you're at 90, 80, 70% of your, your peak. That's. I think those tests are hard to be really truly accurate. But even, even at 90%, you got another 10. That means 10, 10 on 152 pounds, that's 15 pounds. So I mean even that test is saying that there's potential for 15 more pounds of muscle to be built. So that's, that's still, that's still. And you said, can I get another £10? So you. Absolutely. Even based off of that, you can, but it's going to be tough to do that natural under 10 body fat, only eating 2500 calories. So my suggestion is, you know, go on a nice, aggressive bulk, 3,000 calories plus, and allow yourself to go up a little bit.
- [62:43]
Sal DeStefano
And just based off what you're saying, I already know, you know, you go up to 3,000, 3,200 calories, it'll be clean.
- [62:49]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [62:49]
Sal DeStefano
You're probably not gonna eat garbage. Yeah.
- [62:51]
John (Caller)
To make that happen, away from anything processed, it's all clean.
- [62:55]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. Yeah. You'll be good, bro. Here's the two things I would look at. I would monitor for this. I'd monitor strength and body fat percentage. And that'll tell you if you're going too far or not. So if I'm in your shoes and I'm trying to gain, here's what I'm gonna look at. I'm gonna look at, am I getting stronger in the gym? And then is my body fat percentage going up now? My body. I'm gonna expect my body fat percentage to go up. In fact, I'm gonna expect it to go up until I get to about 11 or 12%. Yeah. Once it starts to go above that, if I get up to, oh, I'm at 12.5%, then I know the calories are a bit too high. So those are the two things I'm monitoring. But the goal is to put it differently. If I'm getting stronger and I'm in a surplus, but my body fat percentage is sitting at 9% and it's not going up, I gotta add calories. So that's what I mean by that. I'm looking at body fat percentage to make it go up to determine whether or not my bulk is appropriate.
- [63:52]
John (Caller)
Okay, that makes sense because you.
- [63:54]
Adam Schafer
Because you did hormones in the past and you're not now. Have you tested to kind of see where your. Where your natural levels are falling right now?
- [64:02]
John (Caller)
Yeah, yeah. I've had. Just last week, I had my blood panel done, and everything's okay. I'm a little low on test. Okay.
- [64:10]
Sal DeStefano
Wow. So, wait, hold on. So you bounce back pretty quick?
- [64:14]
John (Caller)
Yeah. In two months? Yep.
- [64:16]
Sal DeStefano
Wow. What's your. Do you know what your total is at now? Total testosterone.
- [64:21]
John (Caller)
Testosterone. I'm at 144, which is a little low, but I think it'll come.
- [64:26]
Sal DeStefano
Wait, that's total or free?
- [64:28]
Adam Schafer
That's probably free.
- [64:29]
John (Caller)
I'm sorry? As far as I know, I don't know.
- [64:31]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, that's. That's not a bad recovery after a couple months. Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Bump the calories, dude. That'll, that'll make the biggest difference. Especially post show. Yeah.
- [64:42]
John (Caller)
Okay.
- [64:42]
Sal DeStefano
Yep, yep, yep. And then, and then with strength training, you know, five days a week's fine. You sound like you're real experienced, but.
- [64:48]
Adam Schafer
You do better off of us.
- [64:49]
Sal DeStefano
You might be. You might even do better with four or three. Or three.
- [64:52]
Adam Schafer
Yep. Are you running? Are you running any maps? Do you have any of our stuff yet?
- [64:57]
John (Caller)
The only thing I've done is I've read Sal's book.
- [65:00]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. So you get Resistance revolution.
- [65:03]
John (Caller)
It is.
- [65:03]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [65:04]
John (Caller)
But I don't have any maps programs.
- [65:07]
Adam Schafer
I mean I, I would personally love to see you run maps Anabolic in a bulk. I think that it would. And just. And stick to that if you can. If you can. And then on the other days, if you want to go for a walk and do mobility and do other things, if you like going to the gym five days a week. I'd never tell someone not to, but it's a three day a week full body routine that with a bulk I think would serve you really well.
- [65:29]
John (Caller)
Okay.
- [65:29]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. The most important piece of all this though for someone like you is the bulk. Yeah.
- [65:34]
Adam Schafer
Eat. Gotta eat.
- [65:36]
Sal DeStefano
That's right.
- [65:36]
John (Caller)
And I have problems eating. I'm hardly ever satisfied after eating. I have a big apple.
- [65:40]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, go for it, dude.
- [65:41]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, go for it.
- [65:41]
Sal DeStefano
If you're at 24, I mean I would, I would put you up to like, I'd add a good 600 calories at least.
- [65:47]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, 3,000, 3,200 should be a good place.
- [65:50]
Sal DeStefano
That's right.
- [65:50]
Adam Schafer
Be starting at. And just. And like Sal said, let it, let it be. Stay there and expect to go a couple percent up. You start getting beyond 12, you know you're aggress, you're bulking too fast. Then you can just pull. Don't pull back crazy. Just pull back a little bit.
- [66:03]
Sal DeStefano
Yep.
- [66:04]
Adam Schafer
And, and then the extra muscle and.
- [66:05]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, but you're not gonna. Here's what's gonna happen. You'll probably get up to 10 pretty quick and then it's going to be. Probably hover around there for a while.
- [66:11]
Adam Schafer
That's what I would. As you build, I would guess the same thing.
- [66:14]
Sal DeStefano
Yep.
- [66:16]
Adam Schafer
I have Doug send over a map Santa Bollock from us so you can follow that. I'd love to hear you fall if. I'd love to hear you bulk follow that and then hit us back because I'd like to see what we do.
- [66:25]
John (Caller)
Okay. Well, you have no idea how much I appreciate you sending me that map. Santa Bali. Thank you very much.
- [66:31]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, you Got it, man. We got you, we got you. You just follow it, do the bulk and then I'd love to hear back from you, John.
- [66:37]
Sal DeStefano
Okay. All right, dude.
- [66:39]
Adam Schafer
All right, brother.
- [66:40]
John (Caller)
All right. Thank y'.
- [66:41]
Sal DeStefano
All.
- [66:41]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, take it easy, man.
- [66:42]
Sal DeStefano
You know what's interesting to me, which, you know, I believe this up to him and his doctor at 52, if he's gonna run cycles, why not stay on it? Why not go on trt?
- [66:53]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:54]
Sal DeStefano
So on interesting cycle is a higher dose, right? That's. No, I'm not advocating that. That's just, you know, competitive bodybuilding off cycle would be trt rather than doing the up and downs and yeah, crazy swings. I mean, he's 52. He's probably not gonna have any, you know, kids anymore.
- [67:08]
Adam Schafer
Well, that's, I was, I was thought.
- [67:09]
Sal DeStefano
The same thing too.
- [67:10]
Adam Schafer
I thought it was interesting. And especially too. He still has goals of continuing to build more muscle. Trying to do that coming off of a cycle where you're already trying to get back your normal testosterone level and build. I mean, it's just.
- [67:22]
Sal DeStefano
But you know, back to the body fat percentage thing, it's, it's. There's very, very, very few people that can really build bulk. Yeah. In the single digit body fat percentage, 99.9 of people fit, healthy, you know, doing everything right. You know, you're, you're, you got to get your body fat up at least to like 11:12 for me. Like, like my max bulking, like I'm getting strong and I'm not putting on too much body fat. Like that sweet spot for me is around 11:12 for me and I sit leaner. So some guys is even higher. Some dudes, 1415 is their sweet spot for, you know, packing on.
- [67:59]
Adam Schafer
I mean, I, I don't even, it's so funny when I'm, I'm in like kind of bulk mode right now. It's like I don't even care if it's as long as it's north of 1012. Yeah, I'm like 1215 somewhere. It doesn't even matter. It's like stay. It just, it does better in that, in that range than trying to also be really lean and do it slowly. Like that is. He'll do better if he goes up.
- [68:20]
Justin Andrews
Our next color is Leanne from Georgia.
- [68:22]
Sal DeStefano
Hi, Leanne.
- [68:22]
Adam Schafer
How you doing, Leanne?
- [68:24]
Leanne (Caller)
Hi, how are you guys doing?
- [68:26]
Adam Schafer
Good, how are you?
- [68:27]
Sal DeStefano
How can we help you?
- [68:28]
Leanne (Caller)
I'm cold. It's cold here in Georgia. We're not used to this.
- [68:33]
Sal DeStefano
Well, we're in California, so it's still cold today though.
- [68:36]
Adam Schafer
It's cold. It's cold over here too.
- [68:38]
Sal DeStefano
If it's below 60, we're all freezing over here.
- [68:40]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, but anyways, this is really cool. I'm super excited. I said, as I was telling you guys, this is the best birthday present ever. My birthday is tomorrow, so.
- [68:55]
Adam Schafer
Birthday.
- [68:56]
Leanne (Caller)
Yes, I will. Thank you. So Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and I'll go ahead and jump right in. I have been listening to you guys for a little over a year. I started listening to you because I heard I used to listen to Mike Matthews podcast and then he stopped his podcast. And I think Sal, you were on his podcast. Or maybe it was Adam, one of you guys was.
- [69:19]
Adam Schafer
Both of us have been on there. He's good. He's a good friend of our. Very good friend of ours.
- [69:22]
Sal DeStefano
If you liked the episode, it was probably me.
- [69:27]
Leanne (Caller)
I will say stopped. I started listening to y'.
- [69:32]
Neha (Caller)
All.
- [69:32]
Adam Schafer
Awesome.
- [69:33]
Sal DeStefano
Thank you.
- [69:34]
Leanne (Caller)
And I listen to you guys all the time. In the car, in the gym, everything. My daughter, I have a six year old daughter and she like has the intro memorized. It's really funny. So I also love it when you guys talk about your kids and I can relate to your talks about the teenagers as well because I actually am a high school science teacher. So like hanging out with 15 year olds is kind of my thing. I love it. They are fun. But I'll go ahead and jump into my question. I'll be 38 tomorrow. So I said in my email that I'm a 38 year old. I've been lifting for the last two years consistently. I actually started doing one of Mike Matthews programs on the thinner, leaner, stronger on New Year's Eve two years ago. So that's when I started to really get into lifting and consistently lift five days a week with the compound lifts, squat bench, deadlift and starting to use heavy weights. When I first started, I don't remember exactly what my numbers were, but I know that I deadlifted one day a couple weeks after I started and tried to do 135 pounds and I threw out my back. It was terrible. So now this past Thanksgiving, my sister in law is a powerlifter. So this past Thanksgiving we did a mock powerlifting meet on Thanksgiving Day and I did 500 pounds total for all three lifts and my deadlift was 225.
- [71:06]
Adam Schafer
Wow. Incredible.
- [71:08]
Leanne (Caller)
So I've increased it quite a bit over almost £100. At least £100 in two years, which I think is pretty good considering my size. Size, I'm really small. I am only 5:1 and I do have low bone density. So it's sometimes I wonder if I'm lifting too much for where my bone density is. And that is due to a history of being small my whole life. Some of it's family history. And then I will disclose that I have a history of an eating disorder that I've struggled with since at various points in my life since I was really like 12, I guess. So it's kind of a lifetime thing to really just kind of keep it at bay and keep it away. So now I feel like I've kind of stalled out on progress as far as getting my lifts any higher, particularly my upper body, my bench press. I still cannot bench £100. I can. My bench was £95 for that competition. So my deadlift saved me. But I am wondering as far as my next fitness goals. That 500 pound was a big milestone and I'm not sure where to go from here. I was thinking about the idea of doing a real powerlifting meet, but I'm so small that I don't know if there would be anyone to compete against, which is worthless then. And then the other question I have is that I bought the Mat Super Bundle nine months to phase expert exercise programming designed by the three of you. So I had to buy it. I bought it on the Black Friday sale and I just opened it and started looking through it this past week because I was doing this other program. I finished up with my year long coaching commitment with my Legion coach and I figured that I would start looking at it now, but it's not really what I expected.
- [73:15]
Neha (Caller)
Expected.
- [73:16]
Leanne (Caller)
I did not realize Maps Anabolic was only two or maybe three days a week if you did the advanced version. And I like working out. I like to be in the gym five days a week. I have time to do it and so I'm looking for advice on how to modify that so that I can get it to be more of a five day a week program with slightly shorter workouts as well as you know how to progress that program to get the most strength gains possible.
- [73:52]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, great question. I appreciate your call and your honesty and you got a great energy. Yeah. So yeah, I really appreciate calling. So this is going to be pretty simple for someone like you.
- [74:04]
Adam Schafer
You mentioned the hard.
- [74:06]
Sal DeStefano
Yes. So there's a few things you mentioned that are going to point me in just strongly in a direction. So I'll start with the really good news. You have really good genetics. You're really strong. Yeah, man, like really strong for your size.
- [74:22]
Adam Schafer
Even your bench press, by the way, 95 pound bench press.
- [74:25]
Sal DeStefano
It's your body. Yeah, yeah. You're lifting for five one, you're lifting a good amount of weight in all your lifts.
- [74:30]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [74:31]
Sal DeStefano
So you're really, really strong. And the low bone density is a 100% a result of the low food intake. Low caloric intake, definitely from the past, but also probably now as well. I'll guess your calories are probably still too low. And so that's where it's going to point me. It's going to point to food intake. So here's what happens when you strength train and your food intake or your caloric intake is too low. You still get osteopenia. And we see it all the time in the fitness space, all the time. Young women who strength train, compete, you know, they're always really, really lean and they just, their bone density just continues to go down and they get. And they freak out. They don't know how. But I'm lifting weights and it's like you're sending the signal, but we're just not feeding the body enough. And so that's the direction we're going to point you as far as workout's concerned. I mean, Mike Matthews has great programming maps, anabolic we could modify, you could do.
- [75:31]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. That being said though, Sal, to your point, with, with lower calories, a. A lower volume of program is also going to benefit you more.
- [75:39]
Sal DeStefano
That's right.
- [75:39]
Adam Schafer
In that condition. Right. Because. Because we are. We don't have enough calories. A higher volume program is also working against us, not for us.
- [75:48]
Sal DeStefano
Let me ask you this, you worked with a coach. I, I love Mike Matthews. He's always got great stuff. I'm assuming when you worked with your coach, was this a constant conversation with them? Was the food intake and calories?
- [76:01]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, it was. And she had me tracking and so now that my year is up with her, I have hired an online like through Nourish. It's. I don't know if you're familiar with that program, but it's an online program with dietitians. So I've hired a dietitian. I met with her once and they both, you know, they're having me track. So I am tracking my food, so I know where my macros are and I know I have at least an approximation. I'm not always the best about tracking it and I know that there's a tendency with my history to overestimate, so I probably do that a bit. But overall, like typically my calories fall around 2,000 calories. And then my protein is like somewhere between 100 and 110. Do you still think that's too low?
- [76:50]
Sal DeStefano
I do.
- [76:50]
Adam Schafer
Oh, yeah.
- [76:51]
Sal DeStefano
Okay.
- [76:52]
Adam Schafer
Especially how strong and how much muscle that you have.
- [76:56]
Sal DeStefano
The bone density will tell me. Yeah, yeah. The potency would tell me 100%. And your past.
- [77:01]
Leanne (Caller)
Okay.
- [77:01]
Sal DeStefano
And I know while I'm talking to you, if you don't mind me being direct. Is that okay if I'm a little direct?
- [77:06]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, of course. That's why I like you guys.
- [77:08]
Sal DeStefano
I know as I'm talking to you and you're hearing me talk about food, it's like you're freezing a little bit. And I know that this is like I'm touching on something that's difficult, and I get it because this is a challenge for me as well, just in a different direction. So it's like when someone tells me the thing that I know but I don't want to do, you know, I make the same face that you made, which is like, tell me about the workout. Let's not touch that one area is difficult.
- [77:33]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, I guess I. I feel like I'm. And I know you hear this all the time. I feel like I'm eating a lot and I, I eat pretty clean. Like probably 80% of the time. It's a lot of vegetables, fruits, you know, whole milk, yogurts, stuff like that. And I do, I try and throw the junk food on top of that, the cookies.
- [77:56]
Sal DeStefano
Let me stop you. Let me stop you. You can't trust your feelings.
- [78:00]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, yeah.
- [78:01]
Sal DeStefano
Your feelings are wrong. Yeah. If you trusted your feelings, they go back 20 years. You're gonna go, yeah. This is. You're.
- [78:08]
Justin Andrews
Yeah.
- [78:08]
Sal DeStefano
We tell people, listen to your body. When, When I'm dealing with somebody who's got dysfunctional relationship to exercise and diet, you don't listen to your body. So if you eat appropriately, it's going to feel uncomfortable.
- [78:24]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, yeah, it does. It really does. Like, when I track my food and I've eaten a 500 calorie dinner, I'm like, I'm stuffed. I don't know if I could. I don't know how I could possibly eat anymore.
- [78:35]
Sal DeStefano
Yes. So it's going to be uncomfortable. And we have to completely change your relationship to eating, which means for a while, it's going to be very foreign, it's going to be very uncomfortable, and you're not going to like it. You're not going to like this process. It's going to be very uncomfortable for a while. So you cannot trust So a coach is a good idea, but what they're going to do is, you know, you following what they do with you is going to be the hard part. Not the tracking, not the awareness. You know, I'm not worried about that. I know you could. You're going to make a great case, which is why I cut you off, because you were making a great case. I eat healthy. I throw in junk food, but that's. Yeah, I'm not concerned with that. What I'm concerned with is we got to get your bone density up, and we got to get your body fat percentage up. And I know I just scared the hell out of you, but your body fat percentage is too low for your bone density go up. We got to get your body fat percentage to 20% at least. Do you know where you're sitting?
- [79:36]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah. It's not there.
- [79:37]
Sal DeStefano
No.
- [79:38]
Leanne (Caller)
I have the only way. The Dexa scan that I got did not do body fat percent. Like, it was only bone because my doctor ordered it. So I don't know exactly, but I would guess maybe somewhere around, like, 16.
- [79:51]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah. Yeah. You got to get it up to 20 the.
- [79:54]
Leanne (Caller)
And that's, like, where it's been for a long time, I think.
- [79:57]
Adam Schafer
Yeah.
- [79:58]
Sal DeStefano
Now, here's what's going to happen. Here's what will happen if you. If you follow my advice and if you're. By the way, if you're willing to add another coach to your arsenal. We have coaches here that work really well with what we're dealing with. And what they could do is they could also work in conjunction with your dietitian and more. Just the support and guidance and trust and, you know, because you're not gonna be able to trust yourself through this process. But here's what it's gonna feel like. Uncomfortable. I'm stuffed. I'm full. Oh, my God, I'm getting big. And then you're gonna be like, whoa, I'm strong. This isn't as scary as I thought.
- [80:34]
Adam Schafer
I feel good.
- [80:35]
Sal DeStefano
I'm feeling different. My hair looks different. My skin looks different. My energy's starting to feel different. This is foreign. What's going on? Oh, no, I'm too big. Oh, no. I feel good. And you're going to go back and forth, back and forth for a little while until we develop this new relationship with the whole process. But we have to go in that direction.
- [80:53]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah. And in the past, it's been really hard because I've never had, like, when I've done treatment in the past, it's always been all about the food. And there's never been any exercise component, like, with. With it. And so I need help with both of them together.
- [81:09]
Sal DeStefano
Yes.
- [81:10]
Leanne (Caller)
At the same time. Because it's like, once you get the food, the earth. I don't know. They both. I think they both have to happen.
- [81:17]
Sal DeStefano
At the same time.
- [81:18]
Adam Schafer
You're 100% right.
- [81:20]
Leanne (Caller)
And none of the programs do that.
- [81:22]
Adam Schafer
No, no, no. Because they're just focusing on the nutrition side, the beautiful side. When you have somebody who does both, it's. It's going to be much easier for you because you actually enjoy getting stronger. So you're gonna see that. And so that's one.
- [81:33]
Sal DeStefano
That's such a silver.
- [81:34]
Adam Schafer
That's such an awesome. Like, it's good. Like, Sal's saying, the. The food part is going to be hard, and you're gonna go back and forth, struggle, but the thing that you'll be able to lean on is like, oh, my bench press went up. Oh, my dead performances. And so. And so that part of you will be able to lean and focus on that and not so much of the food. You just trust your coach of, like, keep eating this. I want you to do that. Stay. Stay the course. How's the lifts going? And that's what, like, if you. If I'm coaching you, that's what we're talking about. I'm talking more about the lifts. You just. You trust me, you eat what I tell you to eat. But let's talk about your lifts. Let's talk about how you feel and. And keep you focused on that. And that's. It's so much more reassuring for a client that's working through what you're working through right now.
- [82:12]
Sal DeStefano
So, Leon, again, just to stay, you know, direct, because this is a call, and if I were coaching long term, the conversations would sound a little different. So I apologize ahead of time.
- [82:20]
Leanne (Caller)
No, that's okay.
- [82:21]
Sal DeStefano
But for people watching, the root of this, a lot of people think it's body image, but it's actually control, which I know you already know that. So the solution is to relinquish control. Yeah, that's the solution. The solution is to give it to your coach and then just do what they say and then just deal with how uncomfortable and scary it is. It's gonna feel really scary.
- [82:41]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah, well, and I know that, like, I've got to lean on my faith for this, too. And I know that resonates with you.
- [82:48]
Sal DeStefano
I.
- [82:48]
Leanne (Caller)
We were at our church service on Sunday, this past Sunday, and they were talking about that, actually going through all of the passages in Hebrews and about, you know, giving up all of your sins to God.
- [83:04]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah.
- [83:05]
Leanne (Caller)
And so like, this is like perfect. It was perfect timing for it. And this is all perfect timing. What would you, what should I do then about the workouts? I wish you guys would have had Maps 15 power lift, like and had released all these Maps 15 programs.
- [83:22]
Adam Schafer
One, we're going to give it to you. Two, we also have, we have coaches that you work with.
- [83:27]
Sal DeStefano
Our coach, they'll give you whatever you need.
- [83:28]
Adam Schafer
Yes. Yeah, they'll take care of that part. So I would love if you allow us to have one of our coaches call you and she can talk to you and talk more about this and then we'll take care of the program.
- [83:39]
Sal DeStefano
You mentioned your faith. I love that. Because you know that there's an illusion of control that's completely false anyway, we're not sovereign, so that's completely, you know, out the window. Here's the other thing too, is another wonderful silver lining. You work with teenagers and teenage girls. When you're in those moments where you're really struggling, what would you tell a 15 year old you or a 15 year old student? And that advice is the advice that you would take because I know it's easier to love them than it is to love yourself.
- [84:09]
Leanne (Caller)
It is. You're right. You're absolutely right.
- [84:12]
Sal DeStefano
When you're in that place, be like, what would I tell, you know, my 15 year old daughter or student and then say, okay, that's the advice I need to take.
- [84:20]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah.
- [84:21]
Sal DeStefano
All right, we're have someone call you. I know exactly who I think you would be great with.
- [84:25]
Adam Schafer
Yes.
- [84:26]
Sal DeStefano
And, and then what's going to be great about this, Leanne, is now that you, if you work with our coaches, we're going to see you and I'm going to hop on some of these calls because I feel responsible now for you and this will be so fun.
- [84:37]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, yeah. We're going to help you through this. We got this.
- [84:40]
Leanne (Caller)
All right, great. Thank you. This was awesome. And happy New Year.
- [84:43]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. And happy birthday.
- [84:44]
Leanne (Caller)
Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourselves tonight with your zebiotics. I, I buy all the things that I bought your programs and then about buy all the things that you tell tell us to buy. I gotta get the interra. That's what the mind pumps. I'm like, I buy all the Legion proteins and pre workouts which actually are amazing anyways, so.
- [85:09]
Adam Schafer
Well let it, let us take care of you now. So. Okay, we'll have some someone call you and we'll take care of you.
- [85:13]
Sal DeStefano
God bless you.
- [85:13]
Leanne (Caller)
All right, all right. Thank you so much.
- [85:15]
Adam Schafer
We'll be in touch.
- [85:17]
Sal DeStefano
How cute her daughter was back there. I know.
- [85:21]
Adam Schafer
I wonder if she even knew.
- [85:22]
Sal DeStefano
Did she see? I could. I knew when I felt. I knew as soon as I started talking food, she was like, that's not what I want to hear. And I get it, man. I totally get it. And I know that's what the coaches tried to work with her on from Legion 2. And that's the difficult thing. And I just want people to know, ladies in particular, you can strength train perfectly. You will get osteoporosis if you don't eat enough. Yeah, it's just.
- [85:41]
Adam Schafer
There's a unfortunate fact, for the most part, there's a lot of. A lot of callers that are pretty straightforward for us. Then there's stuff that. There's a real art to be able to take somebody through something. Oh, this is. It's not.
- [85:55]
Sal DeStefano
This is coaching.
- [85:56]
Adam Schafer
It's not as simple like, you know, young. Young coach goes, oh, just add 500 calories a day. Yeah. You know, make it happen. And walks away. Because it's not just that. It's able to step her through that whole process, and you just have to keep a close eye on it. And to try and do it through a nutritionist without strength training, it to me is just. I would love to see the numbers on the success rate of that, how often that happens, because in my experience, the only way this really works is we completely. We ignore the scale. We don't hyper focus on the food. You're following the plan I gave you. You don't even need to know how many calories. I know how many calories. I'm saying all we're talking about is like, how do you feel? How's your sleep? How's your hair?
- [86:37]
Doug
Now you can direct positive energy in that direction instead of all being doomed.
- [86:41]
Sal DeStefano
And the key. The key is, is that you have to communicate, and they have to make peace with the fact that it's gonna be uncomfortable. Yeah, it's gonna be really uncomfortable. And I don't know. I've seen a lot of nutrition coaches, dietitians, and they just. They don't focus on that, but you need to, because what happens to the person is they're doing it, and they're like, this can't be right. I feel terrible. Well, yeah, you feel terrible because it's scary as hell to you. And the feeling of being satisfied is a very scary feeling to somebody who's had a history of eating disorder.
- [87:13]
Justin Andrews
Our Next caller is Neha from California.
- [87:15]
Sal DeStefano
Hi. Hi.
- [87:16]
Adam Schafer
How are you doing? Hello.
- [87:17]
Sal DeStefano
Hello.
- [87:18]
Adam Schafer
Hi everyone.
- [87:18]
Neha (Caller)
Happy Holidays.
- [87:19]
Sal DeStefano
Same. How can we help you?
- [87:21]
Neha (Caller)
Oh, I must first say that it's surreal. You will not believe. Two of my resolutions for this year was one to finish the Maps anabolic program and the other one was to ask you questions and I'm so glad I get to finish both of them this year.
- [87:35]
Sal DeStefano
Oh good job.
- [87:36]
Adam Schafer
Awesome. What you got for us?
- [87:38]
Neha (Caller)
I'll go ahead and read my email. Hi, Mind pump To start off. I must say I love your podcast. As an Indian born woman I find it very interesting to hear your perspective and find your advice informative and sometimes outright hilarious. And I previously gone from 151 to 128 pounds unhealthily in 2018 when I hired a young trainer who put me on a 1200 calorie diet and made me believe that fat was bad for me. I still have hormonal acne from it so I have recovered but it has done trauma on me. So as you can imagine I gained all that weight back and especially I was going through stresses of gradual school so it was natural that I would get it all back. So my current situation Now I'm a 32 year old 5ft tall female weighing around 148.4 pounds and 34.1 body fat percent. This is measured using my scale at home which might be wrong and I started Maps anabolic program on July 1st when I was 149.4lbs and similar body fat percentage. I borrowed this program from a friend couple of years ago I should say I gave it a try total of three times and I failed because I could not do like three times a week or two times a week without getting hurt. But this year I could happily finish it and I really enjoyed pre phase and saw strength gains in phase one. But after that I injured my neck and upper back and had to take a couple of weeks off and do mobility and stretching. So phase three was too much for me and I had to do a two day a week version. Also note that I am increasing my grip strength and just achieved a 10 second body weight dead hang on October 24th. This was also one of my 2025 resolutions to do a 10 second dead hang. I finished the MAPS anabolic program on November 9th at exactly the same weight. I started at 148.4 pounds and 34.1 body fat percent. I'm currently consuming around 2000 calories and burning around 2100. No cardio. I just do 10k steps a day. And as you can see I'm in a very moderate deficit, 100 calories per day, which might be the reason I did not lose body fat or weight. I should mention I skipped all of the calf raises and also shoulder shrugs because of my neck and shoulder injuries. Going forward, I would like to start MAPS performance to ensure I can rehabilitate my back and I'm planning to go on a definition deficit of 16 to 1700 calories starting on November 12th, which I did. And you have the first five days of the maps performance on YouTube, which is what I was following. I basically do the three foundational days and I repeat the two mobilities every alternate day. And I'm almost about to finish the first phase. I was about to buy a program but I did not know which one to do. So it's perfect that I'm talking to you now. So currently I feel very flabby and I'm not used to feeling this heavy. At 148 pounds, my happy place typically is around 125 to 130 pounds. That's where I feel the best in my body and that's something I would like to achieve. Around 130 pounds with 25% body fat. I haven't been that for a long time and I feel very flabby. Can you recommend how I can go on a cut while ensuring I don't hurt my neck? My neck injury is because of loading the squat rack wrong on my neck three years ago. So I did I think 120 pound squats. Then I went home and I got up at three in the morning with my right side of the neck and shoulder swelled up because I'm pretty sure I did something wrong there. So I would like to be conscious of not loading things on my back until I rehabilitate it completely. And I'm currently not at all confident. All of my squats that I do deadlifts are completely with dumbbells. So currently I can do a 45 pound dumbbell squat, but I would like to make progress on the strengths and start loading my back again very safely. So I wanted to see what advice you can give me. And another interesting thing is that I commute to work driving two hours every day and I also strain my neck because of that. So I do mobility stretches like morning and evening. But is there something else that I could do to make sure that I am on the right path for 2020?
- [92:04]
Sal DeStefano
Have you ever worked in person with a trainer or correctional exercise specialist?
- [92:10]
Neha (Caller)
I have actually gone to in person trainer. This was the wrong person I hired in 2018, so that was bad. After that it turned me off a little. Then I went to physical therapy a year and a half ago when I injured my neck and back.
- [92:25]
Sal DeStefano
Okay.
- [92:26]
Neha (Caller)
And that was very helpful. They basically gave me like foam roller exercises, the angel hand movements and stuff, which was great, which is what I do till now. And I also do the wall circles that you have on your YouTube.
- [92:38]
Adam Schafer
Good.
- [92:38]
Sal DeStefano
Have you. How long did you work with a physical therapist? What did that look like?
- [92:43]
Neha (Caller)
It was around three months. And it was basically like heat pads followed by stretches and him mentioning that I should not do any overhead presses for a while, so I should not pick anything up above my shoulders because my muscle patterns are all wrongly trained to protect my neck from that injury.
- [93:03]
Sal DeStefano
Got it. Correctional exercise would benefit you a lot. You need a specialist to work with you for a little while because there's a movement pattern issue that can probably get corrected. But until it gets corrected, this is going to be got to go to the root. A repeating issue like the fact that your neck hurts you when you drive tells me that we need some correctional exercise. You're not near us, are you. Are you in the San Jose, California area? Are you?
- [93:30]
Neha (Caller)
I'm in Santa Barbara, so just four hours down.
- [93:33]
Sal DeStefano
So I'm going to refer. I'm going to have Doug refer you to a good friend of ours and he's the best exercise specialist, correctional exercise specialist I know. He also works virtually and he does a good job virtually. And so we're going to send you his contact. He's the best. Like I've never met anybody as good as him, hands down.
- [93:50]
Adam Schafer
He's also very familiar with all of our MAPS programs. So after he does correctional work with you, he'll recommend the right direction for MAPS also.
- [93:57]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah, but. But I think you're probably there though. Yeah, yeah, I think you'll start there. And I think a Maps 15 protocol will probably be your best. Yeah.
- [94:04]
Adam Schafer
Option Maps 15 or Symmetry as well. Yeah, yeah. Listening. He's gonna, he'll send you on that one. We'll take care of other program. But Brink needs to do some of the work with you first. That that's where this will. Will set you up for success.
- [94:16]
Sal DeStefano
Now, nutrition wise, you know, I think if you're doing proper strength training, what we want to do is build strength and muscle, which will set you up well for the fat loss. Your calories aren't bad, but to cut from 2,000 calories, we're going to hit a plateau fast, and then you're going to be stuck at 1400 calories at some point. Yeah. And then where do we go from there, you know?
- [94:39]
Leanne (Caller)
Yeah.
- [94:40]
Neha (Caller)
2000 calories does seem like a lot, though.
- [94:43]
John (Caller)
Yeah.
- [94:43]
Neha (Caller)
Like, during the holidays, I was eating around 2500 calories for the week, and I felt really bad.
- [94:48]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [94:49]
Neha (Caller)
Like, the entire time.
- [94:49]
Sal DeStefano
It also depends what the calories are. But here's the thing. It's not that 2000 calories are high. It's that I would like you to fall to 2,000 calories for your cut. Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? So a good reverse diet with strength training will help do that. But the problem is, for us to build muscle, we're going to need progressive overload. We're going to need a level of intensity. But if we don't figure out what's causing the upper back and neck pain, that's going to keep getting in the way as you get stronger. So you'll progress. Progress, and then you'll hurt, and then we got to back down again.
- [95:23]
Adam Schafer
Dr. Brink's going to be able to help you. This is his specialty. He's going to give you movements, stuff to do every day, and you continue to work on that, and you're going to start to notice how much better you feel. And then we talk about, okay, how do we load the bar again? How do we start pushing the weight? And then. Then we increase the calories to Sal's.
- [95:40]
Sal DeStefano
Point with really good strength training.
- [95:42]
Adam Schafer
Yeah. But first we do the correctional work.
- [95:44]
Sal DeStefano
He's the best. I've never worked with anybody better than him. And I've worked with a lot of really good people.
- [95:49]
Neha (Caller)
That sounds awesome. And I must say, like, I listen to you guys, like, every other day. Like, whenever your podcast drops, I'm the first person to listen to, and my husband goes, what do you you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just listening to the guys, like, while I'm making coffee and stuff. So I should say I took your advice for reverse dieting seriously. Like, at the beginning of Anabolic program, My maintenance was 1800, and I went all the way to 2200, all because of you.
- [96:12]
Sal DeStefano
Oh, good. But we'll be in contact because Brink will tell us what you need, and then we'll just hook you up. Yep.
- [96:19]
Neha (Caller)
Awesome. Thank you so much, you guys.
- [96:21]
Sal DeStefano
You got it. Thank you.
- [96:22]
Neha (Caller)
Happy New Year.
- [96:23]
Sal DeStefano
You too. Yeah, I need. I. You know, I'm glad we got well, first off, it obviously sucks that she's got something going on there. And you know, I asked her about physical therapy because here's my experience with physical therapy. First of all, physical therapists are incredible at correctional exercise. That being said, they turn in the clinical setting, oftentimes they're dealing with multiple people, six people. You do this, you do that, you do this. And it's like, no.
- [96:49]
Doug
Well, there's no plan after it either.
- [96:51]
Sal DeStefano
And it's, you need specially like someone to look at you, watch your movement pattern, correct it in the mo, not just leave you to do here, put this on, do that, you know, type of. And three months sounds like a long time, but I bet a lot of that was on her own with just like, hey, do this and whatever you've.
- [97:05]
Adam Schafer
Heard me talk about on the show how when I, when I fired mine, I was, I didn't tell mine that I was a personal trainer. And then I knew this stuff. And I remember they put me in this. Like, this is when I was rehabbing the ACL mcl and one of the, one of the, you know, we're coming back leg extensions with weights on my ankles. Then I do a. Then and ball squats and I'm doing ball squats and you. And the, and the, the physical therapist walks away. I'll do that for two minutes and then walks away.
- [97:29]
Sal DeStefano
Exactly.
- [97:30]
Adam Schafer
And it's like now I know as a trainer that as I squat down, when I've got an injury like that, the natural thing is going to be shift my weight over to my strong side. But I know that I got.
- [97:38]
Sal DeStefano
Average person's not going to know that.
- [97:39]
Adam Schafer
Yeah, they're not going to know that. They're going to go up and down, up and down. And then now they create this, this pattern that's going to. The, the stronger side dominates and then they can't figure out why they have low back pain. Yeah. So you see that a lot. And it's not a knock on physical therapists, it's just that a lot of times they put them in these.
- [97:55]
Sal DeStefano
It's the system designs it that way. I had a, I had an incredible physical therapist that work in my studio, but she left that setting and went private precisely because of that.
- [98:04]
Adam Schafer
Yes.
- [98:04]
Sal DeStefano
And the results she got with people were just, I mean, miraculous. They were mind blowing. And Dr. Brinks just, he's so good. And so it's like, you know, you want to build muscle and strength. If you have, if you need correctional exercise and you don't address that first, it ain't gonna happen. The second you get stronger, you get.
- [98:19]
Doug
Hurt, the problem gets worse.
- [98:20]
Sal DeStefano
And it's just gonna keep.
- [98:21]
Adam Schafer
It's like trying to build a house with no foundation.
- [98:23]
Sal DeStefano
Yeah.
- [98:23]
Adam Schafer
I mean, you can. You can try and sell the house on sand. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [98:26]
Sal DeStefano
Yep. So look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. We'll see you there.
- [98:31]
Justin Andrews
Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super bundle@mindpumpmedia.com the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB super bundles like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free resources@mindpumpmedia.com if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.