Balancing commercial success and personal expression - Murugiah

Summary

Podcast Title: Mindful Creative with Radim Malinic
Episode: Balancing Commercial Success and Personal Expression - Murugiah
Release Date: October 21, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Mindful Creative with Radim Malinic, host Radim Malinic engages in a profound conversation with Murugiah, a multidisciplinary British Sri Lankan artist, illustrator, and designer. The discussion delves into Murugiah's journey of balancing commercial success with personal artistic expression, exploring themes of identity, self-doubt, and the quest for authenticity in the creative industry.

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Guest Introduction

[01:16] Radim Malinic:
Radim introduces Murugiah as a vibrant artist whose work embodies a blend of macabre, bittersweet, and joyful elements. Murugiah’s creations are infused with candy-coated dreams and South Asian motifs, spanning various mediums including film, architecture, art, and design. His work resonates with audiences seeking kindness, authenticity, and compassion.

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Early Life and Influences

[03:09] Murugiah:
Murugiah shares his multicultural upbringing in southeast London, where he was exposed to a rich tapestry of Western pop culture and South Asian traditions. He reminisces, "There would be a mix growing up of Saturday morning cartoons, X Men and Silver Surfer and Power Rangers and whatever, and later that Saturday going to an auntie and uncle's birthday or a celebration of some kind, and it being very South Asian oriented."

[05:42] Radim Malinic:
Radim probes into how this dual exposure shaped Murugiah's early creative pursuits, highlighting the balance between his Western environment and Sri Lankan heritage.

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Academic Background and Architectural Training

[08:24] Murugiah:
Murugiah recounts his academic journey, initially aspiring to be a fine artist. However, his parents advised pursuing a more stable career path intertwined with art, leading him to study architecture for seven years. He explains, "My parents said... maybe it's a better thing that you do something art-related that involves a bit of engineering and maths and something that gets you out of the house as a 9 to 5 job."

[11:01] Murugiah:
During his architectural training, Murugiah maintained a strong focus on fine art, often creating unbuildable sculptures within his projects. He describes one such project: "I designed a gallery on the South Bank that had these giant periscope tubes sticking out of it. It looked like some kind of weird alien creature."

[16:20] Radim Malinic:
Radim relates Murugiah’s experience to the broader creative journey, emphasizing the importance of experimentation and the challenges of maintaining a non-linear career path.

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Transition from Architecture to Art and Design

[16:28] Murugiah:
Murugiah discusses his departure from architecture after realizing his disinterest in the constructional aspects of the field. He shares, "I was not interested in doing the adequate research and development around the appropriate construction type of material."

[17:59] Radim Malinic:
Radim continues to explore the emotional toll of this transition, acknowledging the physical and mental stress Murugiah experienced.

[18:29] Murugiah:
Murugiah elaborates on the physical manifestations of his stress, including hair loss, which signaled his need for a career change. He reflects, "My body was actually telling me to do something different."

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Finding His Artistic Voice

[24:50] Murugiah:
Murugiah explains the evolution of his artistic approach from focusing solely on aesthetic to incorporating thematic elements. "What are you interested in actually saying with your work? And once you figure that out, your style becomes incredibly authentic very quickly."

[27:16] Radim Malinic:
Radim inquires about the impact of creative reinvention on personal relationships, specifically how Murugiah's partner supports him through his artistic struggles.

[28:47] Radim Malinic:
Radim discusses the importance of recognizing personal progress over minor setbacks, highlighting Murugiah’s partner’s role in his emotional resilience. Murugiah acknowledges this support, stating, "She grounds me immediately, because the first thing she tells me is, look at how far you've come."

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Dealing with Rejection and Self-Doubt

[30:25] Murugiah:
Murugiah candidly shares his ongoing struggle with self-appreciation and mental health issues. "I need to work on some of that before I can genuinely feel good about things I've done in the past."

[31:54] Radim Malinic:
Radim relates to Murugiah’s experiences, emphasizing that the pressure to be "good enough" is a universal struggle among creatives, regardless of cultural background.

[35:22] Radim Malinic:
Radim highlights the societal and generational factors contributing to the relentless pursuit of perfection, encouraging mindfulness and self-compassion among listeners.

[37:24] Murugiah:
Murugiah reflects on how his upbringing instilled a fear of inadequacy, stating, "No one is out there being like, you're okay, you're good at what you do. Just be human."

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Embracing Physical Art in the Age of AI

[39:53] Murugiah:
Responding to the rise of generative AI, Murugiah discusses his shift towards creating tangible, physical art forms such as paintings and sculptures. "AI can't really replicate a physical brushstroke where you can see the kind of bubbles of the paint on a canvas."

[42:25] Radim Malinic:
Radim observes that Murugiah’s dedication to physical art facilitates flow states, enhancing both his creative process and mental well-being.

[43:34] Murugiah:
Murugiah connects his love for cinema to his art, aiming to capture the emotional essence of movies through his unique illustrative style. He envisions his work as a bridge between personal expression and commercial projects.

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Balancing Commercial Work with Personal Projects

[50:10] Radim Malinic:
Radim probes into how Murugiah manages financial stability while pursuing personal artistic endeavors, addressing a common concern among budding creatives.

[50:30] Murugiah:
Murugiah explains his strategy of integrating personal interests into commercial projects, ensuring that his work remains authentic and fulfilling. "Everything I have to do to make money has to feed into what I'm working on at the moment."

[53:41] Radim Malinic:
Radim praises Murugiah’s approach, emphasizing the importance of aligning professional work with personal passion to maintain creative satisfaction.

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Future Aspirations and Final Thoughts

[55:26] Murugiah:
Murugiah offers advice to listeners contemplating a shift in their creative paths. "Find a kind of personal way into whatever you do."

[56:24] Radim Malinic:
Radim reinforces the value of authentic self-expression and the therapeutic nature of creative conversations, encouraging listeners to embrace their unique artistic journeys.

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Conclusion

Radim Malinic and Murugiah conclude the episode by reflecting on the shared struggles and triumphs within the creative process. Murugiah expresses gratitude for the opportunity to vocalize his challenges, likening the conversation to a therapeutic session. Radim wraps up by highlighting the importance of community and shared experiences in overcoming creative hurdles.

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Notable Quotes

• Murugiah [00:49]:
  "All you have to do is look back at the work that you've done five years ago and look at the work you've done now and measure yourself on those changes."

• Murugiah [24:50]:
  "What are you interested in actually saying with your work? And once you figure that out, your style becomes incredibly authentic very quickly."

• Murugiah [28:47]:
  "She grounds me immediately, because the first thing she tells me is, look at how far you've come."

• Murugiah [35:22]:
  "I need to work on some of that before I can genuinely feel good about things I've done in the past."

• Murugiah [39:53]:
  "AI can't really replicate a physical brushstroke where you can see the kind of bubbles of the paint on a canvas."

• Murugiah [50:30]:
  "Everything I have to do to make money has to feed into what I'm working on at the moment."

• Murugiah [55:26]:
  "Find a kind of personal way into whatever you do."

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Key Takeaways

1. Authenticity Over Perfection:
   Emphasizing the importance of aligning creative work with personal themes and messages rather than succumbing to external pressures for perfection.

2. Navigating Career Transitions:
   Highlighting the challenges and emotional toll of shifting from a structured career path to pursuing personal artistic passion.

3. Mental Health and Self-Appreciation:
   Discussing the ongoing struggle with self-doubt and the need for mental health support in maintaining creative well-being.

4. Balancing Commercial and Personal Projects:
   Demonstrating strategies to integrate personal interests into commercial work, ensuring financial stability without compromising artistic integrity.

5. Embracing Physical Art in the Digital Age:
   Advocating for the creation of tangible art forms as a means to achieve flow states and differentiate from AI-generated content.

6. Support Systems:
   Acknowledging the crucial role of supportive relationships in fostering resilience and encouraging creative growth.

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Conclusion

This episode offers invaluable insights into the delicate balance between commercial success and personal artistic expression. Murugiah's candid discussions serve as a source of inspiration and guidance for creatives navigating similar challenges. Radim Malinic successfully facilitates a conversation that not only highlights the struggles inherent in the creative process but also celebrates the perseverance and authenticity required to thrive in the ever-evolving creative landscape.

Transcript

[Radi Malinich]

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[Murugaya]

All you have to do is look back at the work that you've done five years ago and look at the work you've done now and measure yourself on those changes. Rather than the minutia of losing one job this week or that week, it's much more about what were you doing three or four years ago versus now. And she tells me that every day or every time one of these things happen, she reacts much better than I do.

[Radi Malinich]

Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radi Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests shared their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. Are you ready? My guest today is a multidisciplinary British Sri Lankan artist, illustrator and designer. His colorful and surreal visuals explore the macabre, bittersweet and joyful. Infused with candy coated dreams and peppered with South Asian motifs, his work encompassing film, architecture, art and design resonates with those who seek kindness, authenticity and compassion. Our conversation touches on many topics that contemporary creators wrestle with, including rejection, self doubt and the challenge of finding their artistic voice. It's my pleasure to introduce Murugaya. Hi Murugaya, it's my pleasure to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

[Murugaya]

I'm doing okay, thank you. Adam. It's a pleasure to be on the show. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

[Radi Malinich]

For those who may have never heard of you, which I think is unlikely, can you please introduce yourself?

[Murugaya]

Sure. My name is Muragaya I'm a multidisciplinary British Sri Lankan artist, illustrator and designer working out of my home studio in southeast London. I use a colorfully surreal visual aesthetic and I play with a bit of the macabre and bittersweet and joyful parts of my life. The style, the artwork is infused with a candy coated, dreamy quality and it's peppered with some South Asian motifs. Part of my work is exploring my heritage, my Western upbringing and my Eastern heritage, and the juxtaposition of those two things and how they marry or not marry. As I go through my life, I do that through working in illustration, print, design, painting, sculpture, public art, and hopefully soon, architecture.

[Radi Malinich]

I think whenever someone says I'm multidisciplinary, they don't come even as halfway as you do. In your description of what do you mean by multidisciplinary? Because sometimes we talk about ourselves as mixed media and it just means I use Photoshop and a hand drawn stuff. So I really adore the amount of output that you produce, the diversity and you know, your story is not the story that's linear. Like we have our mutual friend Dan Buja is, for example, very much an illustrator from start to finish. Like he decided to do this. Whereas your background is very nonlinear and as you said, you are, you're growing up in a Western world with Sri Lankan heritage. How did that shape the early creative pursuits in your life? Being born in South Wales and two parents from Sri Lankan heritage, how did that go?

[Murugaya]

There would be a mix growing up of Saturday morning cartoons, X Men and Silver Surfer and Power Rangers and whatever, and later that Saturday going to an auntie and uncle's birthday or a celebration of some kind, and it being very South Asian orientated. So a real blend from the very beginning of growing up, of experiencing Western society and my South Asian heritage and not really being, not really choosing to do one of them. It was very much parents taking you to this thing and it's like, cool, we're going to be here now for the next bit. Yeah, good. In hindsight, good to have experienced both things at the same time.

[Radi Malinich]

Were your parents inclined to the Western culture? Are they first generation immigrants or they.

[Murugaya]

Moved to this country in their 30s, in the early 80s, I believe. So they were also trying to ingrain themselves in Western society, or not for that matter, and to deal with what they had to go through in the early 80s with regards to structural racism and people dealt with at the time. During that time, my dad was a medical professional and my mom worked from home so they both had very different connections to the western society. Let's say my dad ingrained himself much more because he was talking to patients every day. My mum looked after the house and us so only spoke to the neighbors every now and again. So it was a very different mix for them as well.

[Radi Malinich]

So would you say like the blend of cartoons were kind of your escapism, like a view into another world?

[Murugaya]

So we were born and raised in this country and yes, the mixture of whatever was popular culture at the time, Cartoons, Disney movies. I grew up with the Star wars original Star wars movies being re released in cinemas. Disney movies, Aladdin, the Lion King, things like that. Yeah. So I grew up in a heavy kind of pop culture world at the time.

[Radi Malinich]

Whenever I think of the 80s and early 90s, it's basically like day glow colors and just lots of noise and flashes and lightning and stuff. I believe you said once that your dad used to take you to cinema even though he didn't exactly care about what the movie was. Have I got it right?

[Murugaya]

Yeah, I think he noticed my brother and I were both really into movies and I think he encouraged that and by taking us to see as many films as possible. And it still comes to this day. My brother and I just went to see the new alien movie together. It's something that we did when we were children and it's something that continues to this day which is something I'm very thankful for to my parents for encouraging me to see as many movies as possible.

[Radi Malinich]

So having mentioned your unusual sort of non linear career, what actually came up on my ChatGPT profile the other day, it said I trained as an architect even though he couldn't give me any facts. But it says radar mullinage comes from architectural background. And I was like can you tell me more about his architectural background? And it just hallucinated for a paragraph of copy. I was like that's actually Murugaya's text because you trained as architect and this is a real story and it actually is so fitting into this conversation. How do we go from cartoons and your dad actually being a medical professional to you training as an architect for.

[Murugaya]

Seven years right before that? I guess I was obsessed with drawing as a kid, drawing from those pop culture things from as I got a bit older I was getting into movies like the Terminator and I remember drawing the Terminator endoskeleton for a long time in my bedroom. So I was obsessed with art as a, as a kid. The only subject that I was ever succeeding at at my school was art. And my art teachers encouraged me to pursue a career in the art as well. During my final year arts subjects at school, I was studying artists like Barbara Hepworth and Henry Moore, Roy Lichtenstein and Andy Warhol and traditional botanical drawings as well. My final year in my school art lessons was filled with studying fine artists. So I asked my parents when it was time to pick subjects for university. I said I wanted to be an artist and my parents said no. They said, maybe it's a better thing that you do something art related that involves a bit of engineering and maths and something that gets you out of the house as a 9 to 5 job, basically. So at the time I didn't really have much knowledge on anything outside of art, fine art or architecture. We went with architecture basically and that's how I ended up studying architecture for seven years.

[Radi Malinich]

I think that's a quite mature decision to say I want to be an artist. I don't know if you've ever, for example, your mom didn't speak to people maybe beyond just a few doors down, like to have that vision. I want to pursue this full time is. It's quite remarkable at that age. But I think it's the beautiful gut feeling that we have as children, as the young adult, because you feel what would make you happy. But then you actually dealt the first sort of blob of rejection by your parents saying no because they've got your best interest at heart to say, you know what, we want you to be safe because we don't decipher this, this kind of decision until a later age where we realize, you know what, they didn't say no because they don't want me to be happy. They said no because they want me to be safe. And this is something that takes us time to decode for so long because you're like, that's a bit disappointing. Why don't you want me to be happy? You know what? Happy doesn't pay. No Tesco shop. We have to do this. So I just feel like that was your sort of first rejection, but I think you've recovered incredibly by thinking, okay, I will do something similar to this. And I wouldn't have thought that architecture would be the next step. But you've decided to do that and you've trained for seven years. How does it take? Tell me about those seven years.

[Murugaya]

My architecture tutors would tell you that I was still very art focused at university. All of my projects, all of my designs, they were unbuildable. They were very much fine art. Sculptures as buildings. One of my early projects, I designed a gallery on the south bank that had these giant periscope tubes sticking out of it. It looked like some kind of weird alien creature. And you could look through one of the periscope tubes and it would show you a view of London that didn't really exist normally on that South Bank. I was designing kind of fine art sculptures as buildings throughout my entire architecture training. It was only until we got to the third year of architecture, where things had to become very real and practical, in which I was learning more about the built environment and learning about public realm space within housing projects and things like that. And from third year to final year, I was designing things more practically, but still incorporating some kind of fine art background. Luckily, my final year project in my final year of architecture was a gallery in Berlin for Gerhard Richter. So it was always art related. And part of your final year project you have to produce these wonderful documents, giant books about your project and research. And I was often credited for the way my books were presented and designed in research and the way the work was presented on the wall during a quit situation in which the whole class would come and critique the work during the session. So I was often credited at the overall design of the projects and the aesthetics, but never really the construction and the way construction and design blended together, which is what architecture is really. If you're not considering construction as part of your design, then it's sensible to not do that or that career.

[Radi Malinich]

I love it. I think again, it goes to duds energy at that stage of our lives where you really want to reinvent the wheel or at least spin it in a different way or add it to something that has never been added to. Because if you were to play it safe right from the start, then you really miss out on that sort of sandpit on that playground antics that can influence your further career. Because when you think about a commercial career of many designers, so many creatives, we really started at the messy end. Like we try to do all sorts of weird things that kind of are expression of our souls. And then we find ourselves 15, 20 years later designing an annual report for a bank or something, or just doing something which is so monotonous yet necessary to not for that stage of our lives because of the other time or energy changes or I don't know, the dependency of little people changes on our lives. But I find it interesting because it's like it reminds me of a studio that designed a fat boy slim cover we call red design. And I was like wow. They're doing amazing things. And then 10 years later you're trying to find them and they're like designing something for oil company or something. Like it was just so far removed from what they did. Because staying on a linear. On. Staying on that sort of path, chosen path, is sometimes quite tricky because when people grow, they have to add extra staff, extra responsibility, and something that kind disappears. So where you are as an artist now, I think that beginning where you were trying to create unbuildable things, you never know. It's a lot of averages. You know, you might be able to actually build it one day because you know more about than I do. But from what I've learned and from what I've heard, it's like when you go, Zaha Hadid, her buildings were unbuildable too, until the technology actually caught up and they were like, oh, we can make it now. They're like favors. They're prepared.

[Murugaya]

Yeah. I mean, there's two different trains of thought, almost. Probably many trains of thought in architecture. But the school that I went to, they were interested in an architecture that blended into the surroundings. And there's a real beauty in that. Things that feel like they've been there for hundreds and hundreds of years, but are built with contemporary technologies and ways of seeing and. Yeah, and then there's the other trait of thought, which is the artist as architect, which is the egocentric, I'm going to build a tall, phallic object in the middle of London kind of architecture, or I'm going to build something. One of Zaha's early projects was a fire station, and that was like, had twisty, turny corridors and the firemen got sick from using it, basically physically sick. It's a different type of architecture. And I think I was probably somewhere in the middle where I wanted to build something that was still a fun, usable experience for people, but also had an element of a unique presentation, something that presented architecture in a slightly more fun way. And I think it just comes from being someone who grew up in a. In an area in which I was different and I could pull from different places in my life, not consciously, but unconsciously, I think. So, yeah. That's the kind of the world in which I was coming up in the architecture training and it was often met with. Because of the schools I went to, I think it was often met with slight reservation.

[Radi Malinich]

Would you say that your approach to architecture was the reason why you had to leave after a year of being a practicing architect?

[Murugaya]

I don't think so. I think genuinely the reason was my disinterest in the kind of constructional side of things that I was very interested in someone's journey through a building. I know I visited the journey through a building, but I wasn't necessarily interested in doing the adequate research and development around the appropriate construction type of material and how you could really experiment with that material and take it even further. I think when you're doing that at the building scale, it just becomes too overwhelming. But now, as a fine artist, I'm doing that all the time. I'm kind of like, what crazy materials can I use? How can I blend them together? Like, I will sit here for a year and research this one type of practice in material making before I introduce it into a project. I think the world of architecture, the education behind it, it puts you in the deep end way too early. It really does. And it expects you to be doing really crazy things with structure and material and a building scale. And there were some people that were absolutely amazing at it, and there were some people that kind of like only got half of it. And I was one of those people. And my tutor at the end of the year was like, we really think you'd be better off, better suited at graphic design, illustration, product design, something like that, because you're like a really good designer, but you're not applying it to the full state of architecture.

[Radi Malinich]

I think what seems like an unnecessary evil, actually it's a necessary reality to building up and calculating if it's going to fall or not because you need the right materials. It seems that it was still the right knowledge and skillset, that when you find your artistic career, that's there within a year due to stress and losing hair and you decided to take a year off. How did you feel when you almost divorced yourself from that environment and said, okay, I don't need this sort of pressure anymore.

[Murugaya]

We'll be back after a quick break.

[Radi Malinich]

If you're enjoying this podcast and would like more support and information on your creative journey, you can pick up one of my books to help you do just that. My titles cover branding, graphic design, illustration all the way to career business advice with ideas how to navigate the highs and lows of the creative process. You can pick up signed paperbacks at no extra cost from my [e-mail] and we are shipping worldwide use code podcast for extra 10% off your order and you can find the links in the show notes. Any day should be a new book day.

[Murugaya]

Yeah. Making the transition between architecture and whatever else I was going to do in the future. It was very obvious because my body was actually telling me to do something different. All of my hair started to fall out from a very stressful environment that I was in. Clearly the job I was doing was not interesting me or not. It wasn't something that I was comfortable with. So you go from being your final year architecture student where you're designing a building on your own, for an architecture practice where you're at the bottom of the barrel and you're being given the most remedial tasks and this transition was too much. You know what happened here? I went from designing this giant art gallery in Berlin to doing tiling details for a toilet in a restaurant. It's a real shock. And then, yeah, my hair started to fall out from stress. I was in a living environment that I didn't enjoy, a relationship. I was coming to an end. I think all of it came to a head where I was willing to move on because of what was happening to me. So it wasn't too much of a big stress in terms of the decision. It was very much my body was like time to do something different. And I knew at the back of my mind throughout from those days of being an art class student in school, I knew that I wanted to be an artist all the way through. So how do I find my way to that?

[Radi Malinich]

What you describe in here, I think it's a quest for searching for identity. Because yeah, when you're thrown in a deep end and you do an entirely detail for a restaurant, a bathroom, it can be exciting. Now it could have been exciting 15 years ago, but it's a job for someone who really wants to do it. And I think what you're describing here is that search for identity because you switched to being an in house designer and illustrator, then you went on your own and for years and years and years you actually still searching for the right output for the right work because you felt that some of the times when you were working it was disingenuous by emulating other people's styles, you didn't think that the work was exactly yours of your own. And I think it would be safe to say you are quite comfortable now with what you create and the way you produce in your works. But again, is it a stressful environment? Because I know that you did work which was accepted, paid, appreciated, commissioned, it was part of big campaigns. But again, was that period of your life happy? Was it stressful? Was it turmoil? How would you describe it?

[Murugaya]

Professional life? No, because I think from when I moved from architecture. In 2013 into working as a in house illustrator and designer, I was start again. I felt like I was starting from scratch. I did fine art work at school, then architecture work and then I was moving into freelance illustration. And very quickly I realized I needed more experience. So I got a job as an in house illustrator and graphic designer at a greeting card company and it was quite nice. I did that for a year and then I worked as an in house graphic designer at a restaurant for another year and both of those jobs were good. I finally did get to go do the nine to five as a designer. Even throughout those in house jobs, I still knew I wanted to go freelance and knew I wanted to be a fine artist. And when I eventually did a couple of years later, so 2014, 2015, I was just emulating other people's styles. And I mean there's a variety in doing crowd illustrations like a Wally drawing, you know, it's directly emulating someone else's style, but it's emulating a look and a feeling that many people do. And every time I change styles, it happened every couple of years. I went through like a bit of an existential crisis. It was like, none of this looks like me, none of this feels like me. None of this is authentic to me. I took it very seriously and I got very stressed out a lot of the time. I started a new relationship around that time and my partner, who I'm still with to this day, has seen me go from Leon, which is the restaurant I worked at as a graphic designer, all the way to now. So she's seen me working and getting to the position I am now and she could tell you that, yeah, every year I was getting very, very stressed at myself. I think I just take this stuff too seriously.

[Radi Malinich]

I think it's necessary to take it seriously. I think we put ourselves under such undue pressure because if you care, you're going to do everything in your powers and in your strength and abilities to actually make it happen. Because changing style can seem like a earth shattering event for some, some illustrators, you got people with their house style and because that works, they just work at that style for 10, 15, 20 years. And sometimes their endurance and persistence and focus is admirable. Because you describe it like you're reinventing your style for four years, you're inventing or reinventing your style and you can sometimes say, I just made this commercially viable. People want this, but I'm not happy. If you were to sell that to a builder, I'd be like, what you talking about you've got work. This is what you do. I'm a builder, La Briggs. This is what I do. How come you're unhappy with something's working? The overarching theme of this conversation is actually gut feeling. Like following your gut feeling, following your instinct. Because if you need that in your life, then you have to do it in a way. And obviously it's not going to be easy and cheap in a way.

[Murugaya]

Exactly. The big difference is in those early years when I was developing a artistic style, what was happening was that I was developing an aesthetic, and I was just looking at aesthetic. I wasn't looking at thematic. And what I do when I do talks nowadays is I talk about this thing where there's the aesthetic style that you're influenced by. It can be 90s American cartoons, or it can be South Asian religious paintings, or a melding of the two, but are still aesthetic. It's more to do with thematic. What are you interested in actually saying with your work? And once you figure that out, your quote unquote, style becomes incredibly authentic very quickly, because you're being incredibly authentic to a personal messaging, like, I want to put bright, colorful things in the world because I think it makes people happy. But at the same time, I also want to say sometimes it can be a bit messy, and that's where the macabre stuff comes in. But, like, those thoughts only started developing a more thematic approach to my work. They only started to happen in 2019. So it was 2013 to 2019 of just like, working out different styles, working professionally, and then realizing, look, none of this is working for me because it doesn't feel true to my thematic approach to life. So that's when, in 2019, I made the big change. I'm just going to close everything down. I'm going to stop, and I'm going to restart with some very specific thematic and aesthetic approaches to the work. It also happened to coincide with COVID So, you know, everyone had a tough time in Covid, and I did, too, but at the same time, nobody was working. So I used it as an opportunity to just restart everything. And it was a really, really great time for me, which is a very weird thing to say, but it was a time in which I made a new piece of work every week. I wasn't really concerned with the overarching output of it. I just wanted to make something new that kind of ran down the middle of this aesthetic approach and thematic approach. And, yeah, I did that every week for two years, basically, during COVID You.

[Radi Malinich]

Mentioned your Partner being there throughout the whole twists and turns and changes and reinventions. How much of stress and heaviness do we put on our partners through this process? Because we know how much we put on ourselves and we're not always aware of how much heavy presence we have on others, do we?

[Murugaya]

I'm more aware of it now than ever because I'm still going up for things and still being rejected for things in the workplace. And my partner, she sits next to me when in the office. We work together. So she sees me. She sees my kind of, like, mood change and she sees my whole personality change because I'm putting way too much attention on projects and these things that ultimately should be something very enjoyable and fun. And, yeah, so I do know that my partner is a saint because she reacts in the most caring, loving way. And the first thing she tells me, she grounds me immediately, because the first thing she tells me is, look at how far you've come. I've known you for so long. Like, I've seen what you did before and I've seen what you're doing now. Like, all you have to do is look back at the work that you've done five years ago and look at the work you've done now and measure yourself on those changes. Rather than the minutia of losing one job this week or that week, it's much more about, what were you doing three or four years ago versus now. And she tells me that every day or every time one of these things happens, she reacts much better than I.

[Radi Malinich]

Do when the rejection happens. Which it's the parcel of what we do. Because if you were to work for a hundred pounds per project, you could be working all day, every day, with hundreds of people all the time. Whereas on our journey, where we go as designers, artists, creatives, authors, you always think of it like the bigger project is like finding a life partner. If you're looking for one night stand, it's quite easy, right? But that process of filtering out the good stuff, you know, like filtering out the good things, it's not always going to happen. And if you're on a winning streak, you feel good about yourself, everything's working, and you think this is. That momentum needs to carry on. Whereas if someone derails it so hard that you're thinking, well, wait a minute, things are only going to get in better, and all of a sudden it feels like you're having a reset, like a restart. What do I do here? How do you metabolize? I mean, you mentioned it was your partner is very helpful in the present. And the saint, and quite rightfully, I think she wants you to run an audit of your work and your life so far. In those situations, remind yourself of the good things that you've created. Because it's just an opportunity. There's a quota, a kind of analogy I've made up on this podcast that it's like when we come to the train station, we can't always expect the train to be there because if you turn up in the wrong time, the opportunity sometimes just waits for you at some time. So when you being reminded to look back at your work, do you celebrate the progress? Does it a way to metabolize rejection or how do you do it?

[Murugaya]

At the moment, probably not, because I haven't dealt with some issues, some personal mental health issues I think revolving around being more present and being more appreciating certain things in life. I think I need to work on some of that before I can genuinely feel good about things I've done in the past. I gotta be honest with you, because I know that I've done some amazing projects in the past, but I am still yet to fully appreciate them. And that has a lot more to do with my personal mental health than it has anything else. Last year, I did a branding project for Green Man Festival and I branded the entire festival. And throughout the history of that festival, an artist has been given like free reign to do whatever they want with their branding. And the. And I had so many illustrators messaging me saying, this is one of the best projects ever. You must be so thrilled. You must be so thrilled. And all I could really think about was how stressful the project was and how certain things weren't right about it. And I don't think I've developed the full kind of like personal attributes to actually appreciate some of this stuff. And if people have listened to me talk on podcasts in the past, they will know that that struggle has been there for quite a long time. And I haven't done anything about it yet. But yeah, long answer to your question, no, I actually can't look back yet and appreciate things, which sucks.

[Radi Malinich]

It's a great answer I think that many can learn from because as you just said, Brandon Greenman, Festival is someone's dream project. Like, we see these things, the shiny things out there, thinking, I must be sunshine and ice cream. It must be so easy. I must be like, this is the best thing ever. But being behind them, what I call the enemy lines, it's never easy because it looks good, doesn't Mean, it is easier because from personal experience, the bigger the projects were, the bigger the headache and the bigger the stakes, obviously the bigger the reward. But when something messes up, obviously you have to metabolize it and you just say, you still know, ready for it. You still even been in your career for nearly 11 years as an illustrated creator. It still gets tough. And I think there is a breakthrough around 20 year career when you let go and allow yourself to be present. Because what would you say is the main aspect of you not being able to look back? Is it because you keep going? Is it because you striving or because you haven't had time to do this? And my point is you said that in Covid you had time to reset. And I think Covid was a great reset for many people that had a new series. Like we all changed what we did and how we did it and who we did it with during COVID So would you need another Covid to actually help you to look back or another big reset to actually say to appreciate it?

[Murugaya]

I'm not so sure. It is a time situation. I think Covid helped me specifically with its time to design new things and within this new approach to my work. But now, day to day, I'm doing that on every project I do. Whenever something comes in, I'm like, okay. And I tell myself like, okay, how do I do this differently to what I did before and how do I develop this further? So I'm just doing that naturally. I think my inability to look back and appreciate things comes from growing up and told this isn't good enough. Basically it's a very East Asian, South Asian thing, I think. Or just a hard parent. I grew up in a place where traditional educational methods were rewarded and creativity wasn't rewarded as much. And if I did well on a test, an English test or a math test, it would be well done. But if my art teacher tells my parents a parents evening like he's really good, it would never be appreciated. And I think I've just never let go of that. So that's another thing I have to open up with a future therapist in nothing being good enough. That's really how I think. Like I say, looking back at Green man, it was me nitpicking rather than being like just being appreciative of this amazing thing. And I think that happens throughout projects. I'm getting a little bit better of it. I'm just realizing the vibe is still there of the project. Try not to focus on the negative, try to focus on the Positive aspect of the projects. But we're so easily. I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm so easily drawn to, oh, this bit of it was shit or that bit of it was shit. I don't look at its downfalls. I don't look at its like nitpicks on my. How amazing was Alien Romulus? Even though it like rehashed everything from the Alien franchise, it was still a fun ride, an enjoyable experience. So, yeah, I need to try and be a bit more like that with my actual work as well.

[Radi Malinich]

I can tell you that things not being enough is not necessarily exclusive to South Asian upbringing because I'm originally from Eastern Europe and nothing was good enough. Even though A grades and everything was in place. Again, if you dip below the high standards without anyone's help, you were judged. And I can very much associate with what you just said about how your career is driven and how we've taken into adult and professional life because I think that's the undue pressure that you put on yourself. Because even though the parental aspect is not there anymore, you carry that with yourself because it's an unresolved issue. It's an unresolved attitude. And the reason why most people work endless hours and work and work and work, because there is no defined end, there's no mark. Even though you get paid for work, even though the career is working, you still feel like you should be doing more. You still feel like you've almost preempted that, that feedback that's coming from yourself. So the only person that's putting that pressure that not good enough is just you. It's us. That's how we do it. And I had to work through it, through many different therapy sessions, to work out why was I working 18 hours a day, why was I still adding more? And literally even the most mundane, nonsensical campaign, sorry, that sounds bit harsh, but like when you work on Bacardi breezy launch from the Canadian market, that's barely going to be in the VNA as the campaign of the century. But I was working at like 100 meter Olympic race and I was giving it my all thinking, this has to be the best piece of work I've ever created. No one gave a shit. They just wanted to be done. No one said, hey, let's win awards, but it's like people just say, let's do it right. And I think that was the element of not being in the present world. Because not only I was judging myself, but with the advent of Social media, more people showed up online beyond websites, it was a lot faster view of everyone's work. And all of a sudden you're not only in competition with yourself, you competed with everybody else because you tried to find your space in the world.

[Murugaya]

Very true, very true. And I have to caveat, like, I don't share any ill will towards my upbringing or my parents. They were just part of a society which exists, has always existed, in which do your best. Essentially better is better. Basically you have to be the best you can be. And it's. No one is out there being like, you're okay, you're good at what you do. Just be human. You know, you're on this planet for a very limited amount of time. Just enjoy your life. You don't have to be the greatest and the best thing out there. It's actually companies and organizations are built around compare and despair, right? Look at your neighbor, look at their car, look at how nice their car is. You should have a car like that. It's very much built around that. And yeah, so we're just in a society in which our work is ingrained in commercialism. So it's a tough one. That's why I've always wanted to be an artist. Because with fine art you can express ideas and put out personal ideas that. Where you're sharing a personal trait with somebody and you can talk about something very specific. But fine art also has been commodified as well.

[Radi Malinich]

When you mentioned about your parents again, I think it could be a protection. It could be the way of looking after you. Like the way they wanted you to be something different than an artist because they want you to be fat and paid. And maybe the upbringing is, I want you to be good enough for what's to come. Like just that the undue pressure could have been coming from unresolved issues. I think there is a whole thing that societal, generational, There's a lot to unpack. But your kind of message here, to stand in the present moment is sometimes proving quite tricky. And I know that you switch from solely digital work with extra monitors and things playing in the background, to actually painting a lot more, to actually putting, not switching everything off and isolating yourself and giving your work space and time. How did you find that transition? You also said you've been doing this because of the rise of generative AI, because you wanted to actually retain the physical aspect of your work. That couldn't be that easily machine taught, machine learned. So how is that switch from years and years of trying to find Your way to finding yourself now in a space where you've got your work, you've got your style, and also you've got your space to actually enjoy it. So that work and presence, how does it benefit your career?

[Murugaya]

I guess during the beginning when I was making the digital work and during COVID I was always trying to pick projects where a physical item would be the end product of the project. A screen, printed film poster, for example, or a magazine cover, but something that was a piece of clothing, something that was very physical, that tangible, that one could hold and collect. So the natural kind of progression from that is making things tangibly and physically, like paintings and sculptures. And I knew I always wanted to get into making things more physical during the making of the digital products. You know, staring at a screen all day, sitting down, it wasn't really a healthy way to work. Partly my reasoning for wanting to make a portion of my work physically was to be able to turn off all the screens, like you say, and paint, paint something. And it really brought me back to being in that art room class at school where there weren't any computers. This was the early 2000s, so there weren't any computers around, or they were, but they were in the back room. And we were all just sat around a table drawing together and listening to music. And I think that's what now when I make my paintings, that's what I do. So, yeah, that was the real reason it happened to coincide with the rise of generative AI and styles being replicated or poorly replicated by AI. And yeah, AI can't really replicate a physical brushstroke where you can see the kind of bubbles of the paint on a canvas or a painting. It can't represent a public art sculpture or the experience of looking at a sculpture at the young V and A, which is something I did recently with friends, it can't replicate that the two things coincided. Basically, I seem to have done this again, you know, Covid coinciding with doing some new work, and then the rise of AI coinciding with wanting to make things physically. And I've finally getting to a place. Some of the most recent projects have been producing tangible paintings for these commercial projects and sculptures. So I think it's starting to help me. And when I sit down at a painting, everything else disappears, like the noise, anxiety, the rest of the world, it just goes out the window. So I can just be much more present when making physical work.

[Radi Malinich]

One would say you're putting yourself in an absolute perfect condition for achieving flow states. It's actually making the space, making sure that you know what your task is, having the right stuff, ingredients around yourself. That's where you can actually achieve this. Because we almost dream about flow states. Like, we think, oh, I really want to be in a state of flow, but what are you doing? Are you ready for it? You do your prep. Did you think about what you're going to make? No, no, no. I need to write a couple of emails in between this and in between that. So I think what you're doing for the enjoyment of your work and for the output and for your mental health is actually absolutely necessary. And I've been very fruitful in achieving this because what I love is this sort of mixture of elements that you picked up along your way. So, like cartoons, movies, architecture, trying to make unbuildable buildings and that kind of stuff. It all really manifests itself in where you are now, because you mentioned you wanted to create tangible outputs. So you've got your cartoons, you've got your movies, you've got all of this together. And then you've been making film posters for quite a while. And you're someone that I've never known who goes to cinema. Is it three or four times a week?

[Murugaya]

Sometimes I go three or four times a week. It's been more like once a week nowadays, but I'm looking to get the numbers back up to three or four times a week. That's another experience that I've enjoyed as a child and enjoy to this day of you disappear into somebody else's world and you kind of enjoy a movie. And again, you have to turn your phone off, you have to adhere to the rules of the cinema and you do disappear into someone else's world for a few hours. So one of the reasons I enjoy movies so much, it does sound like.

[Radi Malinich]

It does sound like you're trying to recreate that early 2000s, mid-90s, where we were just in that moment, in the present moment, you know, when you described, like, you were listening to music and drawing in a class because the computers were in the back of the class. You try to recreate it and that's the good stuff. Because God knows what we've been trying to do, understand the technology, AI our phones, our technology, like the hyperconnected world, the knowledge and the presence of other people's opinions that normally you would hear in the back of a pub, like, are they pumped through Twitter or X or whatever it's called these days? It's just, I think, just for us to understand everything whilst we try to create Art and expression of ourselves can be so confusing because all of a sudden we are distracted. So distracted. So when you sit in a cinema, in your own world, escapism, enjoying it. I know that a lot of movies can evoke feelings of high emotion. And when I met you in person, I instilled the idea that you need to do a particular project, which I think is going to be an absolute hit, because it hits hard with connection, because it puts together everything what you've created so far. And I've. And I think it's got beautiful narrative, so I'm not going to spoil the surprise, but what did I tell you to do?

[Murugaya]

You told me to put a book together. I mentioned movies that made me cry. I think, right. And you should put this book together, basically. And what that form takes is probably something that I haven't figured out yet. Because part of my work recently in film poster design has been a real learning curve of representing a film in illustrated form while also maintaining a unique aesthetic or an illustrative quality that belongs in my personal work. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And it's been a real experimentation there. So part of figuring that out is whether I even would want to do it. I used to go to a movie and at the end of the movie I'd be like, cool. What? How could I design a film poster for that movie and sell it to a client that I'm really into nowadays, I watch the movie and I'm like, cool. How can I evoke the feeling that I watched in that movie in the form of a personal painting, using my own characters and my own world? So maybe it could be related to. It could be a book in which, you know, you show the still from the movie, but then you show the personal painting that you've created a result of it, rather than being too literal in the sense that I'm just going to represent this movie in illustrated form and do it design something very closely linked to the film. It could be something more orientated, where I'm achieving more of my interest in personal painting while linking it back to something very commercial like a movie.

[Radi Malinich]

I'm sorry for putting you on the spot with this because I am not a big film buff. I used to watch cool movies before I got in a relationship. And I've been watching a lot of rom coms on Fridays. I watch things that are not necessarily a highbrow anymore all the time. I just tried to find my own time between kids watching Bluey and number blogs and stuff. So once Upon a time it was all movies about drugs and crazy people like Buffalo 66 and gridlock with Tim Roth and Tupac. And it was all about like mad characters like Vin. I think Vincent Gallo is a genius. And I think what you described to me at when I met you having lunch with Dan, it was like there is so much connection because not only opening up your point of view where how you see the movie and what you found is because you might find that something that makes me cry about the same movie is a totally different part. And I think you open it up this sort of collective understanding of actually how we react to how we respond to things like how our life journeys about, let's say life is not good enough. How do we see the characters sort of portraying. I think there's a wonderful concept in this. It's how it makes us feel. So I just felt like there is a project which I think can be so ubiquitous and so widely appreciated because everyone watches movie and everyone wants to escape. And you know what? Everybody cries, everybody breaks the same. This stuff, vulnerabilities is something that I just, when I heard it, I was like, you got to make it happen.

[Murugaya]

Yeah, well, exactly. It depends how much permission you're actually able to get with a book idea, right? If you work with a publisher who's like, yeah, we're willing to call these studios up and get the use of a still in a book. You know, I work with Little White Lies a lot and I've seen some of their books and talking to the team there where they've been like, this was a very difficult book to get out because of this reason and this reason. Whereas if you do an illustration, yes, it obviously is an artistic interpretation. But yeah, at the moment I might be too interested in wanting to pursue personal art in general because I've been going to movies recently and just enjoying them. Rather than thinking about a commercial way, I can kind of like link my work to it. At the moment I'm preferring to focus on personal art and using films as a kind of influence in a non direct way rather than creating this very specific book idea. But I'm sure later down the line when I have much more of a broader approach and a wider understanding of what my work is doing, I could reintroduce this idea in terms of books. I'd like to put out an art book. I think I've done been working since 2019 on such a varied set of projects and I've got paintings and I've got sketchbooks and sketches and things and posters, and they all link. And there's all a nice way of linking everything together. So at the moment, the focus is trying to find a couple of exhibition opportunities and maybe producing a book as a result of those exhibitions. That would be a fun, long project to be working on.

[Radi Malinich]

If there's a budding illustrator listening to this and he's a fan of yours, and he hears you saying, I'm focusing on personal projects, they might be thinking, how do you support yourself? Are you still doing work that pays and you put in more your headspace into the personal projects? Or how do you balance it out? Because I would like to get some clarity on this for those who might be thinking, how is he doing it.

[Murugaya]

Financially, I am not very good at running a commercially driven business that doesn't involve my work. So I can't design decks, for example, for someone else for in an entirely different style and get paid to do it as a regular gig. Everything I have to do to make money has to feed into what I'm working on at the moment. And if that interest is in personal work, then whatever commercial opportunity I have, I have to find a way to feed my personal interest into that job. As a result, you end up getting paid for the things that you love doing or that you want to explore personally. Anyway. So to answer your question, I am trying to do a one for me, one for them situation in which I'll do a magazine cover for Deadpool and Wolverine, for example, but I'll have them linking arms and being best friends because it's something that I'm interested in exploring within that particular world. Or I'll do a film poster that is much more linked to something I want to explore creatively or stylistically. Most recently, I did a Dune Part 2 poster for an American company called Mutant, in which I was more interested in focusing on composition and how could I creatively compose elements from the film in a more unique way. So I'm doing it in real time, out in the open. Basically, whenever a job comes in commercially, I ask myself, how could I feed my personal interests into this job? I'm currently working on a book publishing project in which I requested that every piece that I make is going to be a painting, a physical painting. And then after that, I said, am I able to exhibit these paintings or put them in part of an exhibition and then sell the original works? And they were like, yep, that all sounds good. There's two interests right there. I'm interested in making more personal paintings. I am interested in seeing if I could Explore IP driven work in a more unique style in a more unique way. That is something that I'm very happy to do. And then in the evenings, I'm making my personal paintings after hours, after 6pm and before 9am, I'm working on a personal painting. And the personal work is very much part of this long project in which eventually your hobby becomes your job. Right. So my current hobby is making personal paintings of how I'm feeling. And eventually, however many years down the line, that will become the job. I'll be exhibiting paintings on an ongoing basis and I'll be exhibiting sculptures on an ongoing basis that are purely personally driven. And the amount of commercial work that happens will reduce to two or three a year. At the moment, it's three or four a year already. So I'm already trying to reduce the amount of commercially driven work that's happening and leaning more into how can I explore this personally? So that's the answer. It's do it both at the same time.

[Radi Malinich]

Thank you for clarifying this, because it can sometimes be misunderstood. I really like your driven answer. This is how I'm doing it. I want to see myself in this work and I'm following my gut feeling again to project something to the world that makes me happy. So it is good enough. And I celebrate you for that because I think that's quite a big chunk of emotional investment and expenditure to say I'm going to pursue this, to be emotionally happy, to be satisfied inside. And it brings me back to when you asked your parents to be an artist and they said no. Whereas years later, here you are, you got big plans, and you're pursuing exactly what you wanted to do, you know, those years ago. So I'm pretty happy with where you find yourself. And it's always a journey and there's always more to learn and there's always more to understand by ourselves and the work and the mediums and the public who sees it and dealing with rejection, having that creative endurance, you know, how it created your career that you've got today. So I really thank you for sharing all of this information with me because is something I wanted to know because I've known about your work and you exchange a few messages here and there. But having that view into your world, I think is invaluable for those who might be struggling with feelings of inferiority and, you know, thinking that their work's not good enough or their career is not going anywhere or they might have a fear of reinventing themselves. So they might be feeling like they're fraud because they're emulating someone on the journey of learning. So you've done amazing work. I think your career is blossoming and I'm really excited where the next 10 years or 20 years are going to take you, because I think I need an original Murugaya in my house one day soon. So thank you so much for sharing your time.

[Murugaya]

Thank you so much, Ryan. Honestly, it's been a pleasure talking to you and it's almost like a bit of a therapy session. Myself, every time I do one of these, I just let myself go and be like, here's all the problems I'm going through. So I'd love to listen back to all of the interviews I've done and see if there's a continuous thread and see if I can fix things. But yeah, just a kind of final thought on anyone who's listening who is interested in transitioning their work or changing their approach to things or even making a small change to what they do. I've always found that looking into oneself and one's personal interests in life and finding ways of representing those interests in whatever you do, I think bears more fruitful work. At the end of the day, it bears more work which you can talk more authentically about. So, yeah, if there's any advice, that would be it. It would be find a kind of personal way in to whatever you do.

[Radi Malinich]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the need to vocalize how we feel about our work and what we're doing, it's actually unlocks more opportunities than spending an extra seven hours trying to redraw a character that doesn't work. Yeah, you're right. These conversations can be like a therapy sessions. But you realize that you're not alone in these problems. And obviously we all feel very much alike. And when we come to a hard wall, hard stop, and a roadblock, we feel like there's no other way out. And we feel like we're the only people feeling that way. So it's great to hear from people like yourself to display that we are very much the same people. So thank you very much for your time today.

[Murugaya]

Thank you. Thanks.

[Radi Malinich]

Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radi Malinich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil McKay from 7 Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you. And I hope to see you on the next episode. Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provide them with value. So thank you for helping out. Thank you.