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- [00:10]
A
When Paula Radcliffe did that shout out on their podcast, they ended up having to explain, like how to try and support the project. And it was wordy. He was saying, oh, his name's Dan Woodger. Dan W O O D G E R. You go to his just giving page. It was like such a leap to try and find who I was. And then it was. Then I was like, all right, that's too many points of like dropping off to find me. It needs to just rom seal it. It needs to do what it says. I need something where you just need to go to a point so you can donate to me. Because this is just too many things going on here. I need a central point. I built a website. Luckily, the domain name, I was sorting it run LondonDRAW London. It's not a brilliant name. It's sort of bronze seal in it. Right? I was just trying to do SEO. It does what it says on the tin.
- [00:58]
B
Welcome to Daring Fore, a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange, stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring Humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life. Every week I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value, and I can only ask you, how will you dare forever? This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre order out in October. My guest today spent 16 weeks turning a London marathon training block into a crowdsourced illustration, a fundraiser and a masterclass in just asking. Dan Woodje is a freelance illustrator and animation director and a returning voice on this podcast and in this conversation, we talk about our own London draw. London. This project grew from a few donations into 200 hand drawn characters, a Paula Radcliffe cameo and a Mo Farah handing him the water in mile 23. We get to talk about NDA fatigue, the crossover between running and creative endurance, and why nothing happens until you ask first. Dan raised more than £5,000 for Oxfam. And this is what happens when a hobby, a hunch and a sheer nerf collide. This is Dare to ask what you want conversation with Dan Woodja. Hey Dan, welcome back to the podcast. Welcome to Daring Forever. New season about pursuing the things we would otherwise regret never starting. How are you today?
- [02:44]
A
I'm on the tail end of a cold, but suffering through freelancer spirit and all that and having to get on with it.
- [02:51]
B
Isn't it just life of a parent? You're always on the tail end of a code. You feel a finishing one or just about to start the next one. Right?
- [02:57]
A
Yeah, always.
- [02:57]
B
Yeah, absolutely. For the record, you and I normally share a studio space in person, but we're doing this remotely whilst you are on your day off. I wanted to get you back because we chat a lot about what you do, what I do, and you've just completed a project which I thought was so monumental that deserve literally the stamp of daring forever. Because it's been fascinating to watch, it's been fascinating to witness, to see what you've done with it. So you are my returning guest. I think you came on my first season when we chatted about what it's like to be an illustrator, what it all goes into it. But going to talk about your project, Run London, Draw London. But for those who may have not listened to your first episode or not know who you are, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? What do you do?
- [03:40]
A
Yeah, cheers. Thanks for having me back on. I'm Dan Woodrow. I'm a freelance illustrator and animation director. I've been working in the creative industry for 15 years now and broadly sell my set style of illustration and animation work to clients ranging from editorial through to advertising, social campaigns. More recently, over the last three, four years, I've tried to pair it a little bit more with my hobby, which is running. I've tried to steer my artwork in that direction. It's an area that I'm passionate about and I feel like in the changing tide of the creative industry, with the introduction of AI, I've tried to bring more of my personality, my own interests into the work that I make and give there a little bit more human depth to what I do.
- [04:23]
B
Your editorial work and your creative work throughout the years has had all sorts of sports themes, from Strava cheats to fueling and all sorts of stuff, treadmills and extra trainers. The question is, when did you realize that running an illustration can actually really work side by side together?
- [04:42]
A
It's still an ongoing experiment to see if it can, but I think that the more that I familiarize myself with the running space and seeing how there is high tier of design when it comes to the shoes and the really big brands, but then below that there is a huge gap in opportunity for a more creative voice. And I think a lot of the elite sportswear comes in with this very high performance, sophisticated style of design, whereas more of the hobby runners like myself, we're just doing it for fun running and now you see so much streamline work. I wanted to come in with a bit more of a happier, sillier approach where it brings my style of illustration in. You remember used to see. I think my big inspiration for it was seeing some of the old marathon T shirts, finishers T shirts from the New York marathons and London marathons where it was much more like character led and sillier and brighter and now it's all very, it's all very more modern and sleek and honestly sometimes a little bit boring. Whereas actually I think that, I don't know there is more personality in running than that and so I tried to bring some of that in. So I've just tried to bring a bit more of that personality through in what I do. And I just recognized there was a bit of an opportunity there to force myself into the space a little bit.
- [05:59]
B
You're absolutely right. Because when I think of all the Nike campaigns when it comes to Hackney half and whatever other events or even like the London Marathon, it's very type based, slogan based. It obviously works when you think about it from the placards where people cheering you from the sidelines, that all works. But what you created to it, what you've created for the space, I think is really cheerful addition to actually showcase that it's been more human. Right. Because we all need motivation but actually to create the representation of the people themselves. I think it's really, really nice angle.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah, exactly. I think there is so many more stories in running that aren't championed as much as like the Sebastian Sarwei smashing. A sub two hour marathon at London takes all the headlines. But what I try to do is give more voice to all the other people who are not grabbing those headlines but still it means an awful lot to them and bringing that more a wider range of reasons why people like running and their reasons for running and just showing a little bit more of what it's like at the back.
- [07:00]
B
You've got to give me an idea for a question because I want to know where did your love for running develop? Because I know you used to run in the past, but you picked it up recently again. And I want to know was it fitness, was it escapism, was it mental health? Which part of it clicked and at what point do you go from the pain into the enjoyment?
- [07:19]
A
I'm really frustrated with my past self giving up. So back in 2013, 2014, I first started running. I was always quite a sporty kid, but then when I went to Art school, it all sort of completely fell off. And then those first few years starting as a freelancer, I found that as a good way to manage stress and all those things. And then for whatever reason, I still can't tell you to this day why. When it first clicked, I had all these visions of being doing this when I was older and I saw older runners and that was my inspiration to keep doing it. And then I think just no one around me was running, I was just doing it for myself. There wasn't really a social side to it. There wasn't big social media, there wasn't runfluencers or anything like that. And so I felt quite lonely just posting it up to Nike plus app before this was like pre Strava but he had two friends on there and I think there was no accountability or people like to riff off of. There was no community. So it might be the reason, but for whatever reason, if it's not that, it just fell off and then you would think it would be a lockdown thing, right? Everyone took up running in lockdown, but I was the opposite. I was annoyed with runners because every time I was trying to get my steps in for the day, they were breathing all over me on the pavement or whatever. And I was so terrified about COVID So then when it really started was when my first daughter came along. She was born in talent of 2021. I'm really keen to have both my girls learn to swim. So I started taking them swimming. And then it was a weird knock on domino effect. And when I was taking her swimming I noticed that I had been doing the classic thing of a new parent and I was just consuming all the sugar. All the late nights had me grazing from the biscuits and the donuts and anything that I could do to propel myself through that mad. Six months of newborn baby in the house and I started to lose a little bit of control over what I was eating and my health. And I was just trying to all those things of managing both a new baby, a business and I wasn't looking after myself very much. And then I glanced over at the swimming pool and I was like, oh, I used to love swimming. Maybe I could start coming to this gym that I take my daughter swimming. And then so I started doing that. So I was swimming once a week, then twice a week, then three times a week and noticed myself getting fitter. And then this little bell went off. I wonder if this fitness that I'm getting from swimming translates to running. And so one Sunday I decided to Put my trainers on and just blasted. Like any runners will know is at the worst top of training. But you just all out 5k. Just go and try to hit it. Run as fast as you can every time you go out the door. And that's what I was doing. And every Sunday I kept going out first Sunday, and then I looked at my stats, whatever, still using the Nike plus app. I dusted that old thing off and found my password. And then I was like, okay, I'm five minutes off what I did 10 years ago. I reckon that's achievable to rope that back in. And then that was it, really. And then it went from doing it every Sunday to then twice a week, three times a week. And then it overtook the swimming. And then it ticked so many things off for me. So one, it was this nice level of getting a handle on my physical fitness again. But then also I found it did so much for me mentally. It crafted a really nice space that I needed between the stress of parenting and the stress of work. And it was something for myself, which I realized I wasn't taking. And it's the easiest thing I could find to do do to go get that headspace trainers on out the door. It doesn't require me to put on Lycra or get the swimming shorts out and like boats to the gym or to go. Got half an hour, I can go. And I found it. I loved it. And then the more I did it, the more I valued the environment and being outside. And then I would do it in all weathers. I started to romanticize it a little bit. Come in from a wet run and I'm soaked through the idea of then taking off all that. You're not cold or anything when you're running in the rain, but you embrace the elements. And then you come in, shower, get dry, get warm. And there's something in all of. Of that that's really a tactile quality to it. I like the smells of it. It's just all these things that really fire me up creatively. And then I realized it was filtering some creative fuel as well. And I found myself really excited to then take all this newfound love of my passion, this hobby that I'd found, and take the things I was loving from it and transfer it to the work that I was making. And it was a lovely cycle that was perpetuating itself. I'm head over heels in love with it as a pastime.
- [11:07]
B
What you describe about putting your trainers on and just getting out, I think that's Pretty awesome because I remember getting ready for a cycle in winter and I counted 27 different things I even had to put on myself. Put it in my pocket, put it in my bike, put it. Check this, check that. And you get a question like, is it just not easy just to get out? No. But what I want to know what you mentioned about a Nike plus app, which is that's a blast from the past, obviously now we all on Strava, but what was your approach and what was your love and head relationship? Or was there a love and head relationship with data?
- [11:34]
A
I think it's. I'm on the downside of the crest of that data wave. So I initially had some really good results from matching my data and I got really nerded out on it and started reading up training methods. And I signed up to a training plan app called Runner and it gives you targets and different types of training to do and it's all fed in through the data that you input and it gives back and got my 5k time down to something I was really, really chuffed to bits with. This was last summer and then I had a couple of injuries and then I started shifting. Trying not to get too nerdy with the running technicalities here, but basically I then I signed up for the marathon, which will lead us on to the project, I think quite nicely in a minute. But I signed up for a marathon and that is a very different type of training. Going for a fast 5k, it's a lot more slower running and you have to almost change your approach. And it's really hard to separate that data stuff because I was doing a lot slower running, which means all these things that really don't matter for us hobby runners. But little things like VO2 max is creeping back up again because I'm not doing the really fast stuff anymore. I'm doing more stuff for longevity. And so my data went all in one direction for a really long time and then started going back up in the other direction and I almost don't want to see it. And I know in my head I know the reason why that's happening, but it's still so hard to separate the two things. So I've had to try. And my relationship with Strava has been a bit weird recently where I used to be all in. I used to love it. I used to like everyone's posts and stuff and a bit at the moment because I'm the other side of the marathon now and I'm training for some faster stuff again. I've been Avoiding a Strava a little bit. I input my stuff, but then get off the app quickly because in comparison to the Thief of Joy, seeing other people getting some really fast times and stuff, I find it a little bit difficult to not get that competitive thing happening. So it's almost like withdrawing myself before I get sucked into this data spiral. But I find it. It's weird. It's a real mixed bag, right? I love the data for certain things, but I try not to have it as a comparison tool as best I can, but really hard not to.
- [13:23]
B
There's been some studies that actually Strava is quite corrosive to mental health. Can test that. My cycling performance has gone much, much better because I've seen all the other people cycling really well and really fast. I was like, maybe I can do that and kind of helps you to hit the benchmark. But then you find yourself to be fighting yourself because it could have been better, it could have not been better. And it'd been literally, there'd been actually studies like how people were really trying to go for the koms, let's say, in cycling, and killing themselves, because that's what they wanted to do. I was doing Richmond park yesterday on my bike and it was windy. It was proper tailwind from the Soyuz hill. I was going like 60, 65K. I wasn't the fastest that day. There were some people going for it, thinking it's good, but the comparison and other people. And at what point do you almost withdraw and say, okay, this is just me. I'm doing it for myself. Because as you said, performance running, as you said, going from past 5k to marathon is different. And it froze you. Because it's almost like when you think about a type of work, when you're creative, you've got lots of small projects. You want really one really long one, and then you've got a really long project. You're like, I wouldn't mind actually these few short projects, right?
- [14:28]
A
It's a really good comparison, actually, with work, I find the crossovers between running and work really pop up all the time. These similarities, because you're exactly right. There is a degree of competitiveness with. When you're working on projects and it's mad to be working on something that's like, I'll be doing a big crowd scene illustration for a client I'm really excited about and I'm really enjoying working on it. I'll flip Instagram open and see someone's done an absolutely awesome animation job. And I'm like, why are they not doing that. Why are you doing this? And then it's the flip side, right? You're doing an animation job. You see a really good crowd scene job that someone else has done anything. Oh, why aren't I? I think it's just a human condition, isn't it? It's trying to catch yourself and make sure that that doesn't send you into some spiral. Realize that things are okay, realize things are good. And then focus on trying to channel that energy into something positive rather than a negative comparison. And envy and jealousy use it to fire you up and push you back into your own creativity. But it's hard. It's the same thing. Both running and drawing, they are very similar in that respect.
- [15:20]
B
It was our mutual friend Mike Schneider, who wrote a book called Creative Endurance, which was initially called Runner's Guide to Creativity. And I really like the term that he coined, which is creative endurance, which is so aligned with physical endurance. Like, how do you prepare yourself for almost every element? And it's almost like the element of self acceptance, which is in the book Daring Forever, which is inspiration for this season, which is the element of when you really accept that who you are, what you do, then try to find the curiosity and gratitude in that moment. Because, yeah, you can easily open a Strava, Instagram, whatever, and you're like, oh, wow, everyone's doing everything else. But I'm not. But you didn't realize, but they might be dying to do what I'm doing right now. I don't think there's ever the date when it stops. And you always try to find yourself going, there's more. Curiosity never runs out. This is the thing with curiosity. We find what you're looking for. You find something that you haven't been looking for, but you always get something. And it's up to you to process that data. But what you did, quite seamlessly, you talked about illustration, crowd scenes and running. And your project that you did in aid of Oxfarm for the London Marathon, I think is one of really excellent ways of displaying daring forever. In a way that you created something that is ownable. It's your own, it's creative. I would say it's quite socially responsible in a way, if that makes sense. It brings people together. What you create, it's something that you didn't have to do. And I think this is the best start for it. Because when you think about the magic, it always on the other side of the uncomfortable. And it's not only that you had to train for marathon, but you've decided to do something with no help of anybody else, but only yourself, to create this mammoth crowd scene which was based on a fundraising based on the scene of London. And then people be able to add their own characters to it. I'm realizing I'm doing really bad introduction to it, so I'll let you introduce the project properly.
- [17:03]
A
The other project was called Run londondraw London. There is a set website for it, bespoke website called runlondondrawlondon.com which you can go visit and you can see the final outcome from this project. But the gist of the idea was to create a crowd scene illustration that was sponsored by the people who were supporting me for the marathon. So you would donate. I set the figure at £5. So you donate £5 to add a character to this kind of crowd scene. Think like a Where's Wally? Type crowd scene illustration. You pay five pounds and you can add any character you like. So it can be yourself or someone, you know, running the marathon or anything. Just a random character, anything you can think of. And then I will draw it into the scene. The challenge was that it could be anything. And then the idea was that with each donation, it would build up this huge crowd of runners and supporters on a image of the blunder marathon route. So I drew the entire tailored version of the London Marathon route that went past all the London landmarks. And then you had the crowd scene filled with that space. And it was a bit of a mad idea because it required a lot of faith that the idea would work. The only way that it works as a piece is that if crowdscene is filled. So I put a lot of faith in the idea and put it out there with basically nothing to show for it. At the beginning, I had to start this project. The idea was that I was just going to show something extremely raw and open again. I've been talking a little bit about beginning, about AI and how I want to show the creative process from a completely open book. This is how it all works. These crowd scenes always only ever get shown at the end. I wanted to show how something like this is made in real time. And yeah, I did it in aid of Oxfam. So to take it all the way back to the beginning, I saw my brother run the London Marathon last year in 2025. And this is where the idea pops into my head. And I was watching all of the runners going by and just realized how many stories are out there. Every person running by is. You've got the whole kaleidoscope of Life, you've got young, old, all races and ethnicities, people dressed as like the four guys dressed as the Mystery Machine from Scooby Doo went by and then the big Big Ben guy like ran past. And then you've got club runners and everybody is there. And then the crowds as well, full of all their family and friends supporting them. And it's just the most joyous. Anybody that's been to either watch or run the London Marathon knows it's the nicest that London ever is. Everyone is so happy. It's like a carnival all across the city. And that just made me realize that there is something in that as a project idea and as a fundraising idea. So back end of last year I applied to a few charities, but Oxfam was the one I was most keen to work with and to see if I could secure a place through a charity spot through them. And they agreed, which was great because as an organization they do, they tick a lot of boxes that I am socially concerned about. And I was pleased that they were. They responded to the idea because I had to try and explain what this whole thing was. And on paper it sounds a bit insane because I've never seen anyone do this before, this fundraising through an illustration vehicle. But maybe that brings me neatly onto why I was using the illustration side of what I do to fundraise. Because I have like something, a bit of an audience that follows what I do. But I was trying to work out a way that I could engage that audience in my marathon effort. I didn't want to just put up a link and be like, oh, I'm running on the marathon. By the way, this is completely unrelated to what I do, but I'm running the London Marathon. Can you sponsor me? I was trying to find a way that I could engage that audience that follows what I do in the marathon effort. And so I was thinking, well, if I do an illustration that is built along the way and show it as a journey, this might also engage those people that are interested in my creative side of what I do. In January, I launched the project and it started in a complete and canvas. I knew what I was doing, but I knew that for a marathon they usually say it's a 16 week training block. So I wanted the project to follow that. In the December, I just moved house. So all of the planning, pre planning that I'd done was taken up with moving house. So we got to January and I was like, okay, we're now throwing straight into the marathon training block. I need to get this fundraiser up and running and there was still so much still to work out, but I knew that I just needed to start talking about it. So I created a few videos. I was conscious I wanted to try and make a push into YouTube which ended up not really working, but I was trying to log the entire thing. So I was showing me mapping out my idea. So I held up this stick figures of the London Marathon route and then this is how you sponsor it. And I was doing these big Instagram videos being like, this is how you can sponsor the project. And I was like launch them out. And no one was paying any attention. You know what it's like Instagram, you throw out into this awash of people shouting at you. And it just got swept up in the algorithm. And I knew straight from the beginning that if this is going to work, I just need to keep chipping, I just need to keep posting, I need to keep on about it. And I knew that the 16 week block would be just enough time for me to just keep going on about it and hold my nerve. And I just knew that there is something here and if I keep at it, this will pay off in the end. And so I was just kept talking about it. I just kept showing me building the base layer of the illustration and showing where characters would go. And then once one or two people started sponsoring, that's when I started really throwing myself all in. The first person actually that donated was they're a company called Collectible Cities and they make These beautiful little 3D model resin characters of London. Not just London, but they have Beefeaters and William Shakespeare. And they suggested a couple of their characters to be represented in the illustration. Every time anyone at the beginning sent me something, I was like, right. And I made a big Instagram and videos about me putting them into the scene. And once people could see how the project worked, I think then that helped perpetuate it a little bit.
- [22:24]
B
Let me interject for a second. This is interesting because you said a word which connects all of this and you said stories. I've always admired someone who can be dressed as a toilet or phone books or Big Ben run 40 odd K. I'm like, how do you guys do it? Because it's absolutely incredible. The word story here I think is so important here because when you said Instagram doesn't really help you to do just a one off, this is just a classic case of everyone thinking like, hey, I've just been in a hiatus a little bit and I know you're quite activ on the platform and you got people who follow me and they're quite loyal and they're quite loyal to what you do. But is that one hit never really solves anything, right? Because as you said, you have to keep going, going, going, going and tell everyone. Because interestingly, I've seen a post from Austin Kleon the other day and said, look, I've been publishing books for 16 years, got a new book, and as much as I can be sick of talking about, I've got a new book, I've got a new book, I've got a new book. People say, I didn't know you got a new book coming out. There's always someone who'd be like, oh, I didn't know this is happening. Because in this noisy live space, digital space, everything that chance of getting through sometimes is so minimal because there's so many other things to see. Your stories, how did you feel that when you unlocked that storytelling part of putting other people's characters in your map, it unlocked the connection with other people. We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent. With a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk.com you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [24:28]
A
I would love to say I given that loads of forethought and that it wasn't a happy accident, it was combination of the two. I knew that there would be an element of if I could bring other people's stories into that that would make the illustration more rich and interesting. But the unhidden thing that I didn't really consider was that when I was adding in the characters I would tag them in Instagram and then they would then be able to share that with their followers and it almost widened the reach. But it was really lovely to bring in these stories that I could highlight about what other people are doing. So it almost brought more people along for the journey and when I almost like brought them, gave them a level of investment in making this work as well, which was really nice. They had invested enough to sponsor, but when they see that they're character is now in this too, it almost brings them along for the ride. And when I saw that Mechanism really worked on Instagram, where I was highlighting the stories of people who were sponsoring me and showing how their characters were being added to the scene, and then they would share those. I realized how much that extra attention that brought to the project, and then that switched a little light bulb over my head. What I had started doing was just waiting for people to sponsor. But then I thought, well, if I can reach out to people with some influence in the running space or in the creative space, that could also work. It can help bring these two genres together and start reaching out to people who either were celebrities who were running the London Marathon or former athletes who had some involvement in the marathons. The first person I managed to get over the line, which is the biggest one, was getting Paula Radcliffe to participate in the project. It's all this thing of. I'd been building up this project for a really long time. I'll give you the insight of how I got hold of Hearst. Last year, I ran the Great South Run, and I'd gone to an event with a run club called Running Late down in Southsea, who we do a few collaborations with in terms of I make some T shirts for them and things, and they had me down for some events, and they did an event for the Great South Run. And at that, I met this former GB athlete called Christopher Thompson, who does a podcast with Paula Radcliffe. We got chatting, and he followed me back on Instagram. And then in my head, I was already stockpiling leads for things that I could do more in my project eventually came along. I was thinking, well, okay, great, I've got a connection to Chris and Paula now. When it comes time for my project, it might become useful. And then when I suddenly remembered, oh, I've got Chris's message. I can message him quickly. And I shot out a real Shoot for the Stars. And I was being weird as well. I was being purposefully weird. I was like, being, hey, Chris, this is a really random question, but can I draw you really odd message to open? Almost. He did something that was a bit different from what his usual email messages and things were. And he got back to me and said, oh, yeah, this sounds great. I'd love to. So they did a little feature of me on their podcast, and I managed to get those two in, and that gave this level of cachet that I could really now attach to when I was going to other people. I'd be like, oh, by the way, Paula Radcliffe's in this as well. I gave it this extra element of legitimacy that this mad guy that Was asking if I could draw them. Also had Paula Radcliffe backing the project too. So it wasn't just a complete weirdo. And that really helped. And there was two things happening here now. There was people backing and sponsoring the project and getting involved. And I ended up with maybe 10 to 15 high profile people. So ended up with getting runfluencers like the running channel or like a YouTube platform. They're big in the space. And there was like influences Aubrey and Vouler and Callum Goddard. Then I managed to get Julia Patenane, who is a pro athlete who ran the London Marathon. I think she came. I think she was either fourth or fifth female this year at London. Just gone. So she won the marathon at the World of Athletics Championships last year. But I think the biggest one I managed to get out of everybody was the Ellis James and John Robbins podcast, which a shot for the stars with that one. And again, it was a connection I had made that was tangential to their podcast. And he said, I'll put in a word. And then Dave Masterman, who is the producer on the show, then emailed me and then the door was open and I managed to find a way to work my way in. And they ended up making a big thing of that as well. They featured it on the show, but then they also included my illustrations in feature they did of John and Dave running the marathon too. So there was this almost like I joined their journey as well, which was amazing. Yeah, it was really cool.
- [28:15]
B
What you're describing, it's almost incompatible with a regular way of being an illustrator because you normally would put the portfolio up in the open and hope that something will happen, you might make some noise, you might hope to go and get some press on the back of a project that might have a non NDA attached to it. You might be free to do it. And I think generally you would hope that someone will come and find you. Whereas what you've done, you flipped it totally on its head and you've been thinking of just about cashing some possible leads and having a list of people who to go to. Because when you think about everything that you want happens when you ask for it, that's just a simple sentence. Going after people and telling them that you've known that you're there, that you're doing it, that you actually care about. How did you balance all of that with training? Young family, regular work? All of this stuff requires lots of extra energy and time to put into it. So logistically, how did you do it?
- [29:05]
A
Well, don't know. I think I'll eventually look back on this and be really perplexed with how I managed to fit it all in. I just wanted to quickly come back to one point that you made there though, about the reaching out and asking people for things. Because part of the reason I wanted to do this project in the first place, not only to combine my love of running and drawing and to raise some money for a charity that I really believe in, but I was also growing very frustrated with work. I had done some really, really big projects in 23, 24. They were NDA'd. No one has ever seen them. And I was growing really frustrated with the way that I have been relying on work coming in has been via word of mouth and through people seeing the work that I've been doing for client projects. And when you can't share those, there was this real inevitable. Because I was working on so much stuff that was NDA'd, people just stopped seeing what I was making. And it very much reflected in my inbox. I definitely saw a slowdown and I was looking to do something for myself that really showcase what I do. Make a big, splashy song and dance about it. But the biggest eye opener of everything is asking. I have been so guilty of waiting and sitting and I've got an agent and I've been letting them do their thing and I've been chipping away at social media, but I have not been asking. It is true. Don't ask, don't get. I started asking and I started getting. And every time I was thinking, oh, this is really dark. And don't get me wrong, there was lots of things that didn't happen. I shot messages of people and they never responded. 60, 70% of the time I got something back from it. And it's amazingly effective. Just asking for things and just being cheeky and just shooting a shot. I think it helps. I believed in this as well. I think it wasn't me just asking a random question. There was very much purpose behind what I was asking. But every time I felt like I shot for something, it came off.
- [30:41]
B
Absolutely. Because when you think about it, it's a direct question about direct thing, right? It's basically that there's a purpose because you created a destination for people to have something, to be part of it. Because what's really interesting, I recognize that as a problem that some people highlight that people say, look, my work is under NDA. I've got no new work to show, therefore I'm not getting new work. And I sometimes think that's not your portfolio problem, that's your lead generation, that's your business problem when you think about it. Because when you think about brands and companies that you get five emails a week from them saying, hey, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this. Or you got tech bros trying to sell you their courses. And I'm like, they're always asking, they're always pushing, they're always trying. You know, even Coca Cola still advertises every day. They still try to be in front of their mind. But I think there's something, there's a fellow self initiated project creator. There's something about that freedom and that expression and you can find in a way of like, this is my project, this is my ownership, this is where I can drive and this is what I can do with it. Because it takes you to a completely different place. When you started with you got an idea, but it takes you somewhere and you come out on the other end totally different. You've got a lot more to talk about. You can be yourself because you believe in this. I wanted to talk to you about it. Like how you take an ownership, you hold yourself accountable, you have to put in extra hours because no one's going to give you extra money because you want to do this. It takes a lot out of you. But the outcome, then it's so worth it because what you've created and just find yourself in a national newspaper, it's a lot of prints and it's gone pretty wide on Instagram and a couple of people got to know about it. So from this asking and pushing, how do we put the mechanics between the idea Navigo, Paula and all the other people and how do you take us to the finish line? Literally both ways on the ground and digitally.
- [32:16]
A
When Paula Radcliffe did that shout out on their podcast, they ended up having to explain like how to try and support the project. And it was wordy. He was saying, oh, his name's Dan Woodger. Dan W O O D G E R. You go to his just giving page. It was like such a leap to try and find who I was. And then it was, then I was like, all right, that's too many points of dropping off to find me. It needs to just Ron Seal it. It needs to do what it says. I need something where you just need to go to a point so you can donate to me. Because this is just too many things going on here. I need a central point. I built a website. Luckily the domain name I Was sorting it. Run London, Draw London. It's not a brilliant name, it's a bronze seal in it. Right. I was just trying to do SEO in it. Does what it says on the tin. There's Running London on Drawing London. That's what this project is. And I just kept hoping that something might pop out that was better, but that stuck. And then I looked up and that was available as a domain name. So I bought the domain name. And then I just spent an afternoon building a really simple website. I conscious about my use of AI, but I put into ChatGPT to be asking, how can I build a very simple website? I need some. A basic code. How do I go about this? What's a simple way? And within 20 minutes, half an hour, it gave me a pretty good simple site that I could just use, that I could get up in an afternoon. And I kept thinking that maybe I would rebuild it or do something else with it. But it worked perfectly. All it needed, it was two things it needed to do right. It just needed to have a central point, runlondandre.com, a place to donate, and then somewhere where people could see the illustration developing so that I could just post updates of where it's at. And it works really well as a device to focus a project around. And by the end, when we crescendo. So building up over the next few weeks towards the marathon, I was posting more and more. There are these things that. These engagements that kept happening where, I don't know, the marathon's getting near us and more and more people are talking about the marathon and they're looking for content around the marathon. And there was things that, oh, this guy's doing this project where he's drawing loads of people in it. So I was getting more press. The observer came on board and an art director from the observer sponsored me and then said, hang on, I think we could maybe print this on marathon weekend. So there was an opportunity for people who were interested in the project to have themselves in the paper on marathon weekend in the illustration. That was brilliant. That was amazing. But it was a bit tricky to manage in logistical terms because my idea was that I would stop donation deadlines on the day of the marathon. That would be when the last point to donate was the end of marathon day. Because I had to tread this fine line between finishing the illustration and stopping donations too early. I wanted to obviously raise as much as possible, but then I still needed to finish the thing. So I built this rough plan, this timeline where I would have the illustration finish at 11:59 on race day. And then I wanted it to be a one week afterwards. That's when I would get all the illustrations into the final piece and then finish a week afterwards because I just did not want this thing lingering on. You run out of steam, you run out of momentum and then people stop caring. It was a very conscious effort to try and get all these timings right. The observer was interesting because they needed that four days before the marathon. So I had to make a roughly finished version for that that looked finished on paper but still needed finishing. So there was lots of things moving parts to keep trying to work out. But back to your question about how I fit it all in. I genuinely don't really know. My one year old daughter doesn't sleep. We have a busy family life and yeah, training for the marathon as well. But somehow I think through the excitement of it all and the feeling that there was genuinely people backing the project and interested and engaged, it gave me that adrenaline to keep going. Like, we can still do this. There is an end point here. Once the marathon's done and once I finish this illustration, that's the end, that's the finish line. We can keep doing this. We've got time, we've got got energy. We can keep at it. We can keep at it. And the stories that were coming in were just, were that fuel that I needed. I think some of them were really heartfelt, some of them were brutal people who have lost family members, children, they're all in that illustration. And whenever I was feeling frustrated or wiped out or tired, just thinking about the people that were invested in this project, I think gave me that extra boost to get it over the line. And then marathon, marathon day. It was hard. It was very hard. I'd never run a marathon before. I'm a keen runner, but that was the first time I tackled that distance and I got found out 30k, cramped up and had to drag myself over the finish line for 12km. But it was incredible. It's just the best experience. And the same thing why they're so well aligned, right? The illustration and the running, because every time I was either struggling with one or the other, thinking about all the people that were backing me or cheering me on or like whatever just kept me going. And I called them like I was calling them two finish lines. So finished the first one, the marathon finish line. I got a respectable time. I was was 3 hours 51, which I was pretty happy with. But I think that I probably got more in me. But it's the first marathon. So I think it was never about the time with this. It was always about the project. And then the second finish line was getting those illustrations done. So I gave myself one day off, and then I dragged myself back into the studio and started, like, getting those characters in. And then by the following Tuesday, we were all done. So every character was added. I had to work my way through the list, make sure they were all included.
- [37:07]
B
I really want to focus on the race because when you've been experienced virtually, you've been creating the illustration of the race and you're thinking about the stories, and it was quite nicely woven into what you just said. It's nice to think about when you feel tired, you put yourself in someone else's shoes. But what was the actual feeling running for London? I'm thinking, my God, it's actually here now. It's happening because it's the euphoria, as you said, like, London is the nicest ever on a marathon day. Because the energy that's there, it's giving me goosebumps now, and I haven't been for a few years. But it's so loud. There's so much energy that even if you haven't got the legs to carry you, the crowd would carry you. So how was it for you on the marathon day? Any relief because you still haven't finished your illustration? Heaven Sonata Print. What was going through your mind on the day?
- [37:49]
A
There's just momentum that was just driving the entire time. There was so many things going on that I felt like I had a really engaged audience that was following and willing me on for this thing, and little mad things. I was trying to get a T shirt made up so I could wear it, so I could rep the project. And even the adventure of I had to get it done with some mad company that because I left it too late and I had to get, like, a local business to print it out for me. And I was so terrified. They only gave me the T shirt like, two days before. And if it were. If it looked good, it looked good. If it looked bad, I was still going to wear it, but it turned out great. And there was all these little things along the way that people were just engaged with about the whole project. And then it felt so good to be on the day, like, repping this thing that I've been working so hard towards and bumped into people who had backed the project. Or one guy tapped me on the shoulder at 10k in and was like, you drew me. And then I looked and I was like, I did because his wife had put him in, asked him to be in the project and told me what he was going to be wearing on race day. There's people from Club Runners and I was recognizing their outfits and they were like, oh, you drew my friend Ellie. She's doing great. There's all these things, like the people who saw me and then back to and got invested in the projects and stuff. There was just something in the water that day. There is just a magic in the air. I think that my race didn't go perfectly. I had, like I said on 30k, I had cramped up. I felt a pop go in my knee and I thought my race was over. And it turns out it was just like a really bad case of cramp. And then I had five or six cramp attacks between there and the finish line. But there is an intense. Almost like the crowd genuinely pull you as you're running. It's an atmosphere I've never felt before. And it's relentless. It just goes the entire way. There is like an intensity that I've never felt because I usually run on my own. I usually run, like in the woods. I usually run on tow paths. So to be in this funnel of noise for four hours is an intensity that I've never experienced before. I can't really explain it. It's just a magic. And the maddest thing that happens towards the end. So I'm looking at my watch and it's a bit out of sync with how long is left. But I was like. I think there's, like about 5K left. And essentially my problem, all the cramping was I was dehydrated and I was making some really rookie errors by basically chugging at every water point because I was gasping for water. And you're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to sip often and little. But every time I got to a water station, I was like, give me the whole thing. I was necking it back. And the last one, which I think is 3 or 5k from the end, I went running up to this guy and I was like, thank you. And then I realized that it was Mo Farah handing me a bottle of water. I'm just wondering whether I'm even, like, at this point completely hallucinating. I've lost the plot. But he was there. It was him. He was handing out water for Buxton. Yeah. Saw him, missed my family somehow. They were on that same stretch and completely didn't see them because I was in this funnel where I was just trying to get over the line. The feeling of finishing was weird. There is an account or if you go on my Instagram, there is an interview I give with urtv and you can see I am shouting. I am shouting on this microphone because I'm so wired still. And then between after that and going to the Oxfam tent to see people, I completely crashed. I couldn't walk. I sat down. Elena from Oxfam wanted to do an interview with me and I couldn't get my words out. I was just gone. So there is this weird. I don't know, almost like my body had been pushed to a point where I had never experienced that level of fatigue before.
- [40:53]
B
So this is interesting because it was actually an unlikely character who summarized it that when you go running, your adrenaline's higher there, everything feels faster. It was actually as an unlikely character, it was Joe Frusciante, the guitarist from Ranger the Peppers. He said, if I would come back from Iran and the music I would be listening to would sound faster, obviously there'll be more adrenaline. So I think what you're describing, it's just a classic. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's happening.
- [41:16]
A
I am wired. And then, yeah, the crash off afterwards was mad. My uncle came and somehow found me. And I was just lying on the ground and he just went, all right, Dan. I was like. Again, felt like I was hallucinating. I didn't even know you were here. How he found me, I don't know.
- [41:29]
B
When you think about. Your project was almost the same length of the preparation of the marathon, plus some were longer, but you would never had almost the checklist for yourself, okay, I want to be there at that point. And at what point do I need to have all of this collected? Because life happens, people happen, stories happen, coverage happens. And you don't almost have the hold of what potentially could be the variables in this. And in one of my training plans, which I really like, there's a mental strength module, and it talks about conquering the big mountain. How do you get yourself to the big mountain? So in your case, let's say the big mountain is a marathon or the project. And what it does, it says, look, you've got eight weeks to prepare for this mountain. And it can go bit by bit, like, what is it? How much you want it? What does it mean to you? And then prepares you for the situation. What happens when you cramp up? What happens when you got obstacles? What have you to do this? And when you think about it, in our creative careers, we see the big mountain is Almost like a slide up, like, hey, just shoot me out, catapult, take me there. And then you realize, nah, the bigger the mountain, the bigger the problems. Right? So in that case, if you knew everything that you knew 16 weeks prior, I'm sure you would do it. I wish you would do it anyway. But is it sometimes better not to know what's ahead of you because that naivety and adrenaline gets you there instead?
- [42:38]
A
I don't know. I think there was definitely the project in its fundamental structure needed it to go as well as it did. Shot a big idea out here that I'm going to fill this crowd scene with loads of characters. It needed to get that level of engagement to fill it in the first place. So it's a mad thing to have the self confidence to go, this is what I'm going to do and this is how we do it. Basically I worked out that I needed to get 200 characters into the scene to make it work. I laid all the characters stick figures out and I was like, that'll do it. And you know, I had considered that if it didn't get there, I'd fill it myself or something. I didn't end up having to do that. If it needed an extra 50 or whatever, I could probably manage that or 100 or if no one donated, then I'd have to tell between my legs. Humble pie didn't work. I went to Jelly, my agents the week before I kicked it off. We were just having a new year catch up and I hadn't told them about my idea and I figured it all out and I said, does this sound insane or do you think it can work? And they were really excited by it and said, yeah, we support fully go for it, we'll see what we can. They helped try and do some press release stuff as well for me and reached out to Creative Review and people. But it was a hard one to sell into those companies at the same time. Sorry to go on a tangent, but because there isn't a finished piece to go to these publications with, I'm almost selling a half baked idea to them being like, oh, I'm running the London Marathon, I'm going to draw it as well. You believe me, right? But can you talk about it? Because I need the exposure. But they were really hesitant the review. We really liked the idea but they said we're happy to feature it afterwards. It's nice that never returned my messages. They said they initially gave some very positive being like, oh yeah, this sounds good. This is like the kind of thing we'd like to talk about, but never responded to a single message. Creative boom gave me a shout out quite early on and I was still working out what the project was even about at that point. But I think it just went as well as it could have done. I could have maybe tried to make a better plan or whatever and have the things in place, the website and roadmap to how I got to the finish line. But I think almost the chaos and the rawness of it showed how these things work. When in the reality of life, I've got two small children, I don't have the luxury of being able to spend enormous amounts of time planning. I've got clients. I did actually quite a big project for Uniqlo during this, whilst I was going on. So I was managing that. At the same time, I just had to get on with it, work out those obstacles as I went. I think that's the only way you could do these things.
- [44:45]
B
I'm absolutely admiring how much extra effort goes into actually making it work because it's. One thing is to put the fundraiser, one thing is to get some submissions and then draw it, but all the extra activity to actually make it successful. It's almost happens, almost away from the piece because as you say, you're asking for press features, you push it, you want to get it in front of as many people as possible. And it's so fragmented. It's so many things that there are the outer layers that potentially can create the atmosphere for it to exist before it can even happen. And I think that tenacity and that endurance in that, and it can potentially only come from a runner if I think about it, because it's. There is a lot. And I can tell you, obviously, after 10 plus years of publishing books, the process never gets easier. It just gets a bit more longer, difficult. Some. Some parts get easier, but sometimes you're not ready. Sometimes life happens, things that get in the way. It's that obsession and the belief that what you're doing is something that's really part of yourself, part of your soul, that this has to go out, this has to happen. Before I let you go, Dan, I want to know where you're going to take it next, because I don't think you're done.
- [45:45]
A
No. I should round off the Run London Draw London experience by saying that there is a full case study if you want to go check out more of what I've been speaking about on my YouTube and there'll be a link to it on the Run London Draw London website. To see everything that I've spoken about here. But the key thing that I want to bang on about is that we ended up raising over 5,000 pounds for Oxfam in the end. And the initial goal for whenever you take on a charity for London, I think they usually give you about a 2,000 pound target, which is massive and really scary. And I think one of the reasons why I dove so head in, because I was so terrified about not making that number. I don't really do anything if you don't quite make it. But they want there to be an ambitious target because it's such a big event and to come out the other side of this and have raised over 5,000 is crazy. And just anyone who listens who backed the project or was involved, I'm really grateful, really grateful means a lot to me, especially for where the money's going. So that rounds off that one and it's opened my eyes to that what good it can do, right? What doing something like this can do. And I love raising money with being a parent comes with all this mad chaos where you open, you read these terrible things and you almost feel guilty for then closing your phone and watching Bluey or closing your phone and going running around the garden. It's a weird juxtaposition that there is so much horror going on out here. But right now I'm drawing a unicorn with my daughter and it weirdly creates a space in your head that I had no idea what to do with. Using the things that I'm good at or enjoy doing. Running and drawing to raise money gives me an outlet that I can show up in the best way that I can to do something that means a lot to me. So I'm not done with this idea of bringing these two things together. And I think that the project, broadly the way that this worked, has potential. Right. There is opportunity for a round two run. LondonDerraw London was the first one. Is it another city that could be exciting? And I'm actively looking at ways that I can make it work. But I don't want to do it lightly either. This is the difficult second album and it took so much effort, this first one. I want to make sure that if I do do it again, I do it with the same level of intensity and commitment. So I'm making sure that I give myself enough time to recover and build up again so that I can take it on with the same level of dedication. But yes, definitely, actively looking for ways that I can partner as well with brands or with organizations that could help take off some of the burden of me doing it all myself. Because this was really diy, this was fully me. And if there's any way that I could have the exposure of a running brand or a sponsor for one of the events to partner with me to help facilitate some of the things like the prints I did all myself. I used the money I took for money I made from the observer double page spread and put that all back into printing and shipping costs for the prints. And I all did it all by hand, delivered the prints to myself in the office that we share and they bagged everything up and sent it out by hand to the post office. Those things came out of pocket. If there's a way to help facilitate some of those things in a way that other people could cover those costs and help me take some of the burden off, that'd be amazing. But all things to work out for
- [48:30]
B
the next I've got no doubt that this is gonna have the Difficult second and the third Easy album because I'm looking at a piece again. Again. There's so many amazing characters in that. It just feels lives and breathes. And I think you brought so many people together and created something bigger than you ever thought at the beginning. And I think the most important part that you've shown here really is asking. You've asked yourself to go the distance on the ground, the streets of London. You've also asked yourself to go the distance when it comes to this project. And if there's one takeaway is just ask every possible question and never shy away from asking some more because that's where the magic lies on the other side. So Dan, thank you again for chatting to me. I look forward to witnessing the next project happening in life. But yeah, nice one. Thanks for coming today. Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of the Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinej. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you for being here and I hope to catch you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do to get 10% of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.