Loading summary
Transcript54 lines
- [00:09]
A
So design is this big wheel that we have to try and move on every project that we do every time. And that is a putting the standards of what you do very high and it's non related to what's going on today. But how do you contribute in something that moves the wheel, the design, so that somebody else can build on that? And I believe that this is something we have to try on every project and we will fail 99.9999% of the time. Yet you have to have the courage to the next day with the new client, with a new project, think, okay, maybe on this one I can create something that not only is effective to my client, but moves the wheel of design.
- [01:03]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?
- [01:48]
A
Foreign
- [01:52]
B
Speaking with Pablo Giancadella, co founder and partner in Mucho, the Barcelona based branding studio he's been building for nearly 25 years. Pablo's journey started with dyslexia, which he actually understood as a gift. It's his ability to see the world from a different perspective. From redesigning newspapers in his mid-20s to building a global studio rooted in collective intelligence. His path has always been shaped by curiosity, humility and an insistence on moving the wheel of design forward. In this conversation, we explore how limitations become superpowers, why every idea is only a prequel to a better one, and what it truly means to bring poetry, not just solutions, to every problem that lands on your desk. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Pablo Giancadell.
- [02:39]
A
Foreign.
- [02:47]
B
It was great to see you today. How are you doing?
- [02:49]
A
Hi. Rather great to be here.
- [02:51]
B
I'm excited to have you here and I always say I'm excited because what you have achieved, what you do, where you standing in an ecosystem of creativity today? It's a very unique space and you guys do an incredible work. And yeah, I really wanted to know today what it like to be in the front of branding and design in the year of 2026. But let's introduce you first. Who are you?
- [03:13]
A
What you do? Yeah, my name is Pablo Ciancadella and I'm part of this collective called Mucho. I started my career in the city of Barcelona from which I work and have the offices from and I'm part of a few partners who lead Mucho into I don't really know what really into projects and into making the best out of every opportunity that we get with clients. I would say that's a fair presentation of myself on the professional side. On the personal side, I'm a dad of a 15 year old daughter and husband to a lingerie designer that somehow sums who I am.
- [03:54]
B
Fantastic. I want to know about both sides because being a dad to a 15 year old, we all find ourselves in this world where creativity is still what drives us forward. But our vision gets a little bit confused by the world of AI the disappearance of junior roles. There is a cocktail of excitement and a nervous energy of what is going to be and what's going to happen. So what's it like to be a dad to someone who is finding their
- [04:25]
A
feet, I think connected to the idea of creativity and how you don't want to impose anything to your kids but you, of course you're related to a certain way of thinking. And I've come to realize and this I think works as a dad and also we work with very young designers who are trying to find their way professionally. Part of the culture of Mucho is almost helping the careers of others. And in that sense I always come back to the idea that creativity isn't absolutely needed for anything, but it's of great help to anything that you do, regardless of it being a creative job. Creativity is the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective to the majority and having the capability of making others go to that place. And I find that in fact works everywhere. We tend to confuse creativity to the capability of visualizing stuff, but it's. They're really two different things. I'm a firm believer that the best lawyers are creative lawyers, the best businessmen are creative businessmen and those are people who have or have acquired the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective and bringing people to that perspective.
- [05:42]
B
I love what you're just telling me. That's really good. You mentioned something really important, which is you said as Mucho you're helping people find their careers, to find their ways and with the direction of your travel, obviously you were once upon a time a young designer. You went into the world to find yourself. How much of help did you get on your journey that you're now trying to either pass on or try to do better to what you received.
- [06:03]
A
I have to say, I feel like somebody who's been completely blessed by advice from others, from people making me better, whether those were my bosses or my colleagues. They've come from very different places. But I've always, since the beginning, it was my partner, Mark and I professionally. And I would say that even back in the school days, I was always part of a collective. I was very aware very soon of what the things that I was strong in, but I had always a very clear idea of those areas where I wasn't that strong. And I've always been very blessed in my professional career by advice, by people really being very nurturing you. And to the contrary, of the general vision of what the work of a designer, of the community of designers is perceived as. I think it's a very welcoming community. And if you take the time to ask people about things and ask the right questions. I've never found a single designer that I admired or that I really wanted to know things from that wouldn't give me an honest answer and would be nurturing and helping. And in that same way, I feel obliged to pass that on and be part of the community and build a community within my workplace. And of course, this is our competitive environment, an environment that lives with a lot of pressure of constantly having to deliver excellence. But we never should lose sight of that part of the thing where we're all creative, we're all in this big wheel, and we're all aiming to become better at what we do. And as long as we're all in that same place, I think it's very important to be generous and share. And that's exactly what you're doing here. And then the reason why it makes sense to be having these conversations, absolutely.
- [08:00]
B
I am loving the deep gratitude for the journey because not many people can say they feel blessed. But I believe the reason why you say you feel blessed is because, as you said, you always aware of what you're good at and what you need to learn. And being part of a collective already seems to let go of that sense of identity, because it's hard to know who you are and what you want to do at an early age. But sometimes you've got the case of a lone architect. I'm going to build my career. I'm going to do this. This is what I believe the world should be like. And that's kind of what I was. And in your case, you're like, I am here for us. And I think this is one of the, what I would understand, one of the breakthrough points that make you feel go after what you want with slightly more wider lens, be more confident, even though it's still early days. But you've got that gratitude. Because what makes me think that you've got space to actually learn and grow from people is because it was a slightly less noisy time. And I keep repeating this on this podcast forever, but now the world out there can make you feel that you need to be somewhat really quick, like is moving faster. We've got. We've lost the innocence. But in your case, would you agree that there was more innocence, there was more time, there was more space for conversations, and it didn't feel as pressured.
- [09:15]
A
So I tell you where this is all coming from. And I think when I say that I feel blessed is because I was also very, very dyslexic. And this is also common ground to many people who are creative. And so it was very clear to me right from the beginning what things was I gifted for. And one things I was starting the race a few meters behind everyone. And for that, you very fastly realize there's a couple of things that you need. One is you're gonna have to end up that race at the same place that everyone. So you're gonna have to put more hours in those areas where you're not as gifted. And also the majority of people are just okay at everything they do when you are very bad at most of the things, but you find out that you are fast finding shortcuts because that's the way for survival. When you're very dyslexic and also that you have a visual mind, precisely because of the limitations, then you have a tendency to do the things that you are better gifted for. And so in a way, that selection to somebody like me was already done. It was in the DNA. And it's a question of being lucky enough to understand it soon and get through with it. And then there's the contrary side, which is the majority, which is people who are, like I said, gifted to most of things. And then making a call seems to me that is the hardest thing to do. And going back to being a dad, I see that my daughter is more or less okay in everything that she does. And I suddenly feel that I was very lucky that I was basically shit at everything, aside from a couple of things. And so the selection was done for me. So I have a hard time giving advice because I feel also very lucky in that sense. And I was in an environment where I was nurtured enough around me to make the best of it.
- [11:13]
B
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on the creative industry and beyond. LAX Coffee Company offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. This is interesting about dyslexia because it does feel like you have a handicap. And you said you feel like you start behind the starting line and you need to get yourself to the starting line because to most people are in fact to everyone I have spoken to who have openly talked about their dyslexia and their experience of it, which was never fine. Like, it was never like, okay, I'm dyslexic and everything else is fine. It was like, I'm dyslexic and I'm really struggling in the world. All of those people have turned into superpower. All of those people have managed to overcome it. Because I think even though it sounds like a crippling anxiety, like a crippling handicap for some people, it gives you almost extra sense of how do you go and succeed. Because you can feel that the world is a bit unfair, that you've got this, but ultimately it gives you a bit of a different drive. As you said, I felt I was shit at everything. It can feel crashing that you feel like that. And you know that what you've been given, what I call the vehicle, our bodies, obviously our hardwired minds and brains and all that stuff, no one is the same. But of having this condition can make you feel, why is the world unfair? It's interesting how you said it, because I feel it was a way to try harder, actually.
- [13:11]
A
Yeah. And also the great advantage is that you're naturally placed in a different perspective to the majority. So going back to this idea that creativity is the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective. People who have certain conditions are naturally in a place that is different to the majority. And that is the key. If you become agile enough, it's the key to creativity because you're naturally there.
- [13:38]
B
That's really interesting. When you said seeing things from different perspective, when you think about it, you've been given that by nature, because you don't see the things from the same way. You have to find your way to see the things how other people see it. Would you say that?
- [13:51]
A
Yeah. My first 10, 15 years of my career were being an editorial designer doing newspapers. I've had always a hard time finishing an article to read, but I realized that I looked at text in a different way, that I could see headlines from the shape of it. And I was quite equipped to make headlines, to do smart connections that work in handy in the newspaper world. So that's a practical example where somebody who's having a hard time reading can be a very successful editorial designer in territories like newspapers where it becomes very technical and hard to understand and hard to really deal with.
- [14:31]
B
I'm curious about the shapes of headlines. How did you see it? What was that? Do you have a condition when you've got, let's say, a condition for letters? I have a way that certain collection of letters makes me feel something. I don't know if that's a proper
- [14:42]
A
connection, but yeah, I have a tendency not to look at the words, but look at the shapes. And of course, after, you need to understand what the whole thing is about. But really you have a natural inclination to shapes more than you do to content. So you're less limited to being loyal to exactly what the words are saying, but more inclined to understand or see tension compositions. And that in magazines, newspapers, it is about how an image works with a certain word or a certain typeface. And I think it's a slight advantage, but it's advantage that in the visual world can work wonders.
- [15:22]
B
But when you talk about editorial, obviously you've got limitations. You got your page sizes, obviously you got font sizes. You need to stick to some hierarchy templates. The editorial style, how did you find it? Did you feel like it was the two worlds pulling at each other? It sounded like a freedom and limitation with a disadvantage that gave you an expression.
- [15:41]
A
Yeah. Of course, the newspaper days are long gone and only a few great designers in great organizations still get to do it at the best level. But in the end, it's the same thing with anything in design. The limitations are there and it's making the best of those limitations that turn something from a good design to a brilliant one. So the rules and regulations and the limitations specifically on newspapers or magazines or editorial have been there for ages. They've been tested. And the beauty of it is that there's still creation, there's still things that are added to from something whose rules and structures we've Known for ages. And of course they need to be respected. They can be challenged, but they have to be challenged always with meaning behind it. So it's small things and certainly having that superpower that you refer to somehow help, but it's always within the boundaries and the beauty of it that is within those boundaries.
- [16:44]
B
My role here is to join the dots and I'm now curious, how did a dyslexic designer ended up being working on the magazines and newspapers? That is not a trajectory I was expecting to hear. So let's get to it.
- [16:58]
A
To be honest, I have a few legendary fuckups that I did that ended up being printed. But I had the privilege to work for a designer called Fernando Gutierrev in Barcelona and Paolo Martin, which had this studio that was doing editorial, but also identity and graphics and so forth. So we never really made a difference between one or the other. It just so happens that from then Fernando was made a partner at Pentagram and we moved on and the biggest client he had was to redesign El Baiz. So I was age 22 and having to work in newspapers, which are a very technical environment, and my partner Mark and I used to be Fernando's team and we worked with El Pais for a couple of years. So by the time we'd ended this process or this, this time at Pentagon, where we were mainly doing this project, we were experts in newspapers. So yes, I had certain limitations, but again, I knew I had those limitations too. So when it came to writing a headline, of course when you work at a newspaper, everything's double and triple checked. And it's very hard that your mistakes get through. But. But I always found ways to go around it. And editorial design isn't that different to anything. I say that one of the advantages of having working for a few years with newspapers is that they're the kings of storytelling and design. What we call corporate entity, turning into branding by introducing narratives to brands. And the fact that we came from that editorial background, it was always about telling stories. And to me, there isn't a big difference between designing a bread of a magazine than it is to do a narrative for a brand. So that was. That was a natural puzzle. In between starting muto, our first client was the Observer. So redesigning the Newspaper at age 25, we were creative directors of the observer, when you might remember this time where all the monthly magazines, the music monthly, the sports monthly, were in place. So the last, I think the last great era of newspapers. So we got to really work with brilliant writers who could tell Stories who and see the power of a narrative and graphics to it. So I think that worked wonders to building Mutual. And I think it's really much embedded in the way we understand brands in which it's the power of visualization, of explaining stories in a very simple way. In hierarchy of information, where brands are also explaining in headlines and then pull quotes and then text. There is three or four levels of in depth that you can get to relating to a brand and it's no different to telling a story on a newspaper.
- [19:54]
B
And so that's interesting. So I got to find out that you didn't actually choose to go and work on a newspaper. Actually that word came to you. Do you remember how you felt as a dyslexic designer going, oh, shit, we're doing what newspaper?
- [20:07]
A
No, the thing is, I didn't turn dyslexic. I was always dyslexic. These are things that I've looked back at it and thought, oh, because when it came to being a graphic designer, I seemed like somebody who was really gifted. So my flaws, I'd have ways of hiding them. So I've always been dyslexic and it's something that I've always had to deal with. And it's only after that I've realized, hold on. Why are things for me easy that seem to be very hard to others? And my answer is that my limitations have created also my virtues. And I just try and make the best of it. I never thought much of. I really like doing magazines and newspapers. Regardless of me having a hard time reading them or understanding them, or having to read an article three times. This is something that by that time I was already accustomed to it.
- [20:56]
B
That makes perfect sense. So you mentioned that you guys worked a few years in Pentagram and then you started with Mark. You started Mucho. How long ago was it? 20 years.
- [21:05]
A
You guys worked mucho, will be next year, 25 years. So I started very early. I started working in my last year of design and I worked for a year with Fernando in Madrid and then joined Pentagram, stayed about two years and then from then went straight to start Mucho. And our first client was to redesign the Observer. So yeah, I was age 25 when we got the observer job and I was working on redesigning el pais, age 22. So yeah, very early.
- [21:39]
B
So here's an interesting connection because normally I make a connections between my guests, work, life, ambitions, stories. But when you said you redesigned observer about 25 years ago, it was Guardian newspaper and observer that inspired me to get into creativity. Because one day I had that eureka moment. I was like, I came from music background, I was all into death metal, gory images, all of that. What I see now is a tribalistic branding system. Like you have the. You never have a problem knowing what niche music artists are because they stay within the category. But I was remember. I remember literally getting a copy in the UK of the Guardian, opening the observer, and it was such a dynamic and interesting time. I was like, wait a minute. This vastness of information has to be created every day. There's a logic to it. And all of a sudden, when you talked about the newspapers or magazines being the kings of the storytelling, it was the sum of many, many, many parts that came up with this overall feeling for me. It was like, I want to do this. And of course, it was the good time of Helvetica. You know, everything was in Helvetica. I love Helvetica a lot. But so that's interesting because I can join the doors with. What you did inspired me 25 years ago to get into what I'm doing now. And it gives me a lot for typography, because the way it was designed laid out, maybe it was your shape, I don't know, for headlines. And the way you designed it came to me. So here we go. I didn't know that, to be honest.
- [23:07]
A
I think the Guardian, the Observer, had such an amazing design culture where they understood the superpower of design as a key not only to reading and not only to serve a purpose, but also to bring brightness and bring inspiration through design. And the Guardian has had amazing creative directors and an amazing culture of design. So has the Observer. And I was very lucky to land that job at very early age and work at a very hard level. But also, I think one of the best takeaways that I got from that experience, which seems to me almost like another life ago right now. But it's this idea that not be too precious to ideas. Newspapers force you into a pace where you might get it really right a couple of times and you might get it wrong another couple of times and there'll be another chance the next day. And I feel that this is. It's the right way to approaching our job where if we fall too much in love with certain ideas, sometimes those ideas are. They're prequel to a better one. And it's really about doing the best that you can with the time that you have. And newspapers have this space where there's a moment where it has to go to print and that happens every week, or in the case of the Guardian, every day. And you have to deliver the best that you have for that day and there'll be another day, the next day. And in terms of gym creative gymnastics, that is a unique environment, a unique way to train your brain again. That's why I say I was blessed. Because this is something that when it happens to you at age 25 and you're having to lead a team of people who are from a very different culture than yours, and you get that privilege, then it's an amazing opportunity to build that gymnastics in your mind and take it to the places where you're curious about and you want to develop further.
- [25:06]
B
I am super curious about now, 25 years later. How do you reflect on that experience? Because as you said, it's a collection of so many different moments, as you said, different culture, different teams in a kind way. You hadn't lived enough to know so many things about newspaper design. You've only been designing editorial for about three years. All of a sudden you're in charge of something that's been in motion for 100 plus years. So how did you feel that all of a sudden? It's exciting, but it's also daunting because there's a lot of weight on your shoulders to get it right.
- [25:40]
A
But I think the comparison isn't fair in the sense that the beginning of your career years feel much longer than when they do as you go on, and you will see this with your kids, you know, going back to being parents, for my daughter, three months is. Is an ordeal of time, while for us, three months go really fast. So, yes, it was three years, but it was three years of being in Madrid, working for El Pais and working at a studio in Barcelona, then going back to London and understanding the Culture of Pentagram, Spending two years at the Culture of Pentagram and then going to the observer at the same time, I was starting my own company in Barcelona, commuting back and forth. So it was almost like dog years. These were years where I was really immersed in my profession, probably had very little time to anything else. And I find that those are the years where you have the beginning of your career. Years is where you, if you're lucky as I was, to get opportunities to build that gymnastics, then the rest is almost collecting new experiences, working at a slightly slower pace, finding that as years go by, you learn less from what you do. And then that becomes a different challenge where you're trying to find projects that become a challenge to your capabilities. And it becomes harder and harder, and that's when it's a different story, because you need to keep in love with what you do in order to do it right. But of course, at the beginning of your career, everything's a challenge. Every challenge is higher than your knowledge, and it's an opportunity for you to catch up. And I had the feeling that the first five, seven years of my career was always me facing challenges that were bigger than my capabilities. And I find that this is one of the reasons why you should probably start your career working for somebody else and make sure that that somebody else is very talented, because it'll naturally give you the opportunity to work in challenges that are much bigger than your capabilities or your knowledge. But you can catch up quite fastly.
- [27:41]
B
It's quite tricky to find someone who's. Who's good and generous and be able to learn from, because sometimes you can have people who are very bad. But actually that also helps you to learn a lot more, to realize that's not the way I think you should do it. But you've shared with me some incredible things, and I want to go back to the ideas, because as you said about creativity, creativity is about seeing things from different perspective and not to be too tight to ideas. That idea, an idea, could be a prequel to even a better idea. How do you instill that in a culture of people who haven't had a chance to have five or seven years of dealing with things that are much, much bigger because you have to work it out firsthand. So how do you encourage people to let go and actually see the idea as a prequel rather than the final destination?
- [28:31]
A
So, yes, it really takes a very specific kind of person to understand this, because at the beginning, or at least this is the way I saw it, when I was working for somebody else, you were providing those ideas. And there was almost two layers. The first layer of judging which is your boss or somebody who's the creative lead, and you're there to help them either have ideas or make those ideas grow. If the idea comes from somebody else, you're there to make it grow. And I find that the beauty of our job is that there is a reason for pride in everything that you do. So whether your chance is to look at the leading of text to you came up with a great idea to anything in the middle, there is an opportunity to see yourself and feel proud of that piece. And I always encourage people in our team to feel proud through the biggest of scales. And this is something I learned at Pentagram. I come from a Latin country. And you would hear people say, we've done this and we've done that. And I was like, you haven't done this. We're in Pentagram, London. This is something that happened somewhere in the US Yet. The idea of feeling proud of being part of a community is one of the things that are very important. But there are also opportunities to feel proud about the little details and everything in the middle. And I think this is one of the greatest things about our job, is that creativity isn't just the idea or having that great idea, but also making that idea shift slightly to the left or to the right to make it from good to brilliant, or making sure that the details are at the right place so that nobody even pays any attention to it. There is pride there too. So I think pride is the most important element. And you need people that feel that pride, have that patience to see that their contribution might not be this time the big idea, but there are other places where he or she is going to have an opportunity to have a contribution.
- [30:27]
B
I like it. Pride. Sometimes it can feel that people can be proud of the smallest things. And you think, is that enough? But I want to go through the point where you said, the longer I work, the less I learn from what I do. Obviously, 25 years is a long time to be running a business in always changing times. So when you said for the first five to seven years, the things were far too big for you just to take them on. What does it feel like to have a 25 years of wealth and knowledge of running a business that is not always easy to run?
- [30:59]
A
What it is is that you learn from other places. So it used to be that somebody would knock on our door, and this was a very different project to what we'd ever done. If you look at our portfolio, it's a lot of us doing a lot of projects in very many different environments. And we on purposely, after doing the Observer, I could have done another three or four newspapers, but we on purposely somehow went away from that world to learn from other types of projects, other types of clients, other types of challenges. So the challenges today are, aren't that much on the mechanism of design. I know for a fact that we're going to get there. It might take us longer, but we're going to get there. So I naturally use my time more on learning from other places. The great thing of working with people who are good at what they do, and if you got good clients, it gives you an opportunity to learn from people who come from very different backgrounds. To yours, who are brilliant at what they do. So every project is an opportunity to learn about them. Of course, you're not learning that much about what you are going to bring into the table, but it's a great opportunity to learn about the other person that you have in front of you. And that is the way I kept in love with this job.
- [32:17]
B
The ones that you told me at the beginning. You said that you were always a part of a collective and you were aware of what you're good at and what you're bad at. And now that makes me think that the way you work with people is that you get the energy, the vibe, the information from the others, that you would never be able to do it in seclusion. Because all of that made me think about a fact that you built an international business. Mucho has got global presence. What was that like to learn from other places? And there's the intricacy, nuances of different cultures, ways of how the local requirements are different. Of course, the language of creativity and design is almost universal, but you've got the nuances that you sometimes need to adhere to. So how was that?
- [32:56]
A
I couldn't say how I did it, because I didn't do it, we did it. It's a collective intelligence. It's not me, it's not my capabilities, it's the capabilities of the sum of all of us. And when I mean all of us, I don't mean only at a partner level, of course. I have my partner Rob, who's from the UK but has lived in the US for 30 odd years, and my partner Tilghman, whose origins are German but is Spanish born, my partner Mark and I, who are both Catalan born from Barcelona, but from different environments. And to that we've had people who come from very different cultures. And the fact that we started working for different countries got us an opportunity to understand other cultures. So by the time you get a second Italian client, there are certain specificities and we spend a lot of time trying to say, okay, this is a project in an industry or a culture that we've never worked in. And you said it. I think the most international or global language that we all speak is the visual one. So it needs ideas, visual ideas, but it also needs us wanting to team up with the client to understand the particularities of their culture, to be respectful to them and to learn from it, to excel. So they're bringing the local knowledge. One of my phrases that I see myself repeating constantly is when I talk to clients is I'm not going to give you advice on what you are. You are. You are an expert in what you are. I'm here as an expert in visual language, and I will try to get from you the elements that I think are needed to develop something that makes sense for you. But it's very important to really get that shortcut to your knowledge. And for that, we need you. This isn't something that you do in isolation, because it never is authentic enough or meaningful enough to the organization.
- [34:50]
B
When you mention Pentagram or when you mention your business and a few similar businesses, the reason why they have survived 30, 40 years in some cases is because of the adaptability about that willingness to look around the corner, because you can be hyper niche business that can have a time in the sun, you're doing some particular skill, particular output, really, really well, and then the world shows up and does it as well as you. Whereas the element of collective intelligence, when you guys go where the curiosity goes, seeing things from different perspective, is the kind of way to have longevity in this. Because one type of food can feel really great for about 20 days and then you get bored of it. And I think for types of people like you and I and many others, it's like you need that variety, you need those new problems, because as you said, you learn from other places that cross pollination of ideas is that when you say that client says you know who you are and we know what we can do for you is that we can learn from others of how to connect things. So how did you see the growth of Mutio, just for that curiosity was did you ever feel like you have to do one thing ever?
- [35:58]
A
No. I think we all had from the beginning a very clear idea of, so here are our individual needs, the things that Pablo needs as a designer, as a human being, but also Mucho has to have a say on those things. And do we coincide? In what territories do we coincide? We treat Mucho as if it was another partner, somebody who has its own life. And in that sense, I think organizations such as Pentagram ourselves have a very clear idea of individuals and community. And it's funny enough that we earn our living building brands, yet we seem to not be that great, are building our own brands. And often, because if you're building a brand that is only your name and it's only about you, it can only go as far as your ambitions, your needs, your energy. And of course, we go through phases in lives where our energies are in different places. And it generates a dependence on individual that is very hard to be one thing or the other. If you are projecting a collective or a brand that represents a collective, of course it has its complications and it has its problems, but it very rapidly becomes smarter than you, becomes this thing that can be a beast that could eat you up. But if you keep going back to what your needs are as an individual and what the needs of the organization are, and I truly believe there'll be a day where I'll see my needs and see the needs of the organization, I might say, you know what? My needs are no longer aligning with the needs of an organization. And that's where Pentagram is brilliant in the sense that they've built a system in which they recycle the needs of individuals within an organization. And I think that's one of the reasons. And of course, the way they do it is very different to the way we do it. They protect individuals within the organization. We try not to have, and we have our reasons for that type of stuff. But it really is about nurturing a brand and nurturing the individual needs of people. And again, this goes not only at level, at partner level, but also at any stage of the company.
- [38:15]
B
When you said it's Pablo's needs and there's individual needs and there's a Mucho as the fifth partner, what are your needs, what you bring? Because as you said, one day they will not matter anymore. But would you bring to the table personally that you stand strong behind?
- [38:30]
A
I have the need to work in a community, to be heard by my colleagues, to help others grow within the organization. And I have a certain need to be useful as somebody who has developed a certain agility to do things. So it comes naturally to me. And as long as those things are being put to use in the organization, I'm absolutely fine. Because, of course, it might be different for me, because I was there the first day of Mucho, and I have partners that came at another point. But to me, the biggest project I've done or will do in my life is building this thing that has its own life. I'll be very happy if this thing is growing. And when I mean growing, I don't mean becoming bigger. I mean growing in the sense that you were saying, oh, that design goes different places and it learns from those places. And there might be a moment where I'm less interested in those places, but I'm still valuable to the organization. And I'm hoping that somebody else in the organization is interested in those places that I might not be in.
- [39:38]
B
There's two words you mentioned quite a few Times and sometimes you mentioned the word or the other word which is help or grow. The idea needs either to help or to grow. But when you talk about what you do, it's to helping to grow, it's helping to move, it's keeping onward trajectory. And I think that kind of summarizes because summarizes what you do because again takes us back to being around other people at the sort of earlier stages of your career. And that's what you're bringing back because as you said, I want to my values and my needs are the community and to be heard. It's like how can you allow your perspective with other people's perspective in actually creating something which to together add something to very meaningful and valuable. So help to grow is the carry of this conversation because exactly what you do with Mucho, you guys create these brands that don't feel cookie cutter like they feel very much. You create a brand and it doesn't feel over time it feels actually more rooted in the brand heritage or creating brands that have got their unique voices. Because I think part of the longevity of the studio like yours and the ones at the app, as you mentioned, is that sometimes they can seem a little bit in view of the trend or from the view of the trend, you can see it's been more old fashioned. Oh, you guys are not doing this stuff. You're not doing this, you're not using 3D visualization, you're not doing this, you're not using the latest gimmick or tech. So let's say once upon a time I was on that, on that journey with my branding studio, but I was like, what is the next thing? Sometimes more in the view of the execution rather than in the view of the overall strategy or legacy. So with the work that you guys do, and I like that you guys claim that you bring unique perspectives to every project. You bring more ways of looking, more ways of thinking, more curious, more curiosity to discover what is needed now. An imagination to create was never being seen before. Those values, they're not old fashioned, but they can seem like you are rooted in a legacy of you because they're outward looking but very strong in a way standing right now.
- [41:37]
A
Yeah, I happen to think that this is me more than I wouldn't say that everyone in the organization thinks this, but I happen to think that we're there to contribute. So design is this big wheel that we have to try and move on every project that we do every time. And that is a putting the standards of what you do very high and it's non related to what's going on today. But how do you contribute in something that moves the wheel to design that so that somebody else can build on that? And I believe that this is something we have to try on every project and we will fail 99.9999% of the time. Yet you have to have the courage to the next day with the new client, with a new project, think, okay, maybe on this one I can create something that own not only is effective to my client, but moves the wheel of design. And, and that can bring a lot of frustration because it's putting your work at the highest standards and not really thinking that much. What's going on today, what happened in the past, it's really understanding where the client, it's also making the client happy. But as the base of what you do, not as the objective. My objective isn't to make our client happy. This is the beginning of what I do. Of course it has to be happy. But I am the one who brings the standards of design and the standards of design are very high to the point where I will be frustrated with the result every time. Because I know this could have been better if I had another day, if I had another opportunity, if my client was a little bit more ambitious, if I had a slightly more talented or would have explored 3D or this or that, I maybe could have done it better. And I think that frustration, we focus on trying to erase that frustration. But that frustration is in fact the engine of creativity, more or less. It's the fuel of creativity. The fact that you might have on the next project, you will have another chance to try and move the wheel of design. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's the way I think about trends and today you've said many
- [43:47]
B
amazing things in there. Because I was going to ask you about the meaning of failing, because I always go back to a quote by a cycling coach called Charlie Vigilius when he was talking to his team before the race and Tour de France and he says, we're going to lose a lot on a way to win a stage, but we can't fail. Because to fail it means that you're not doing what you want to do in the way you want to do it. So I think our way of working with clients, it doesn't necessarily fail, but we are losing the daily sort of stage of our work, looking into it, like what is it that we do? Because that relationship between winning, losing, failure, success, it's so fragile and Fraud. Because you say that our creative industry is based on four elements. Ambition, ego and insecurity. And anxiety. Because it's just, you think you're winning, you think you're losing, and just. You never know what it is. But what you so beautifully and eloquently describing here is that it's a process. It's a daily process, because you not finished that day. Your idea is a prequel to a better idea. And it's like, how do you actually help people grow in a way to understand that this is a continuous journey? Because, as you said, for your daughter, three months can seem like an ordeal of time. And a project that's dragging on for a week might seem like an ordeal to a young designer, whereas in your case, it must feel different now.
- [45:08]
A
And also, I think if you think of design as the big wheel, there are those who came before you. It's very important to know where the wheel is. And you might think you've done the most creative thing. But if you put it on the perspective of the big wheel of design, what is really, honestly, are you just replicating things that are now being done or that were done in the past, or are you contributing somehow? You're using this. We have a lot of confusion about this new, fresh, this type of stuff, when in fact, scientists won't start from scratch. They always based everything on something, somebody who came before you. And creativity is the same in that sense, where you have to have a sense of what is happened, who's explored what, who moved the wheel of design in order for you to be conscious of. Are you actually moving the wheel of design by doing this and assuming that you're never fully successful, that there's always. If you think of this in failure terms, you fail every time and you're going to be failing for the rest of your life. Because the day it's perfect, the day either your standards aren't in the right place or it's the time for you to retire because you've managed to do it. So to me, failure is not a problem. And I don't really see success as real success. It might be success to somebody, oh, yes, that won an award. It's only successful in one aspect of what you did, or the client was happy. Yes, it's only successful in that territory, but it never is completely successful. And your job is to really understand, okay, this is a place to learn for the next time. And yes, we can. We can celebrate as much as you want. And I'm not denying the celebratory aspect and in fact, I think we have to be positive. And I'm a very optimistic type of designer. But you always fail at something, you could do it better the next time and you could learn from it. And to me it's a simple matter of fact. And I believe everyone around me in Mucho has that same feeling where yes, we've done right this here and there and of course I have to do talks and talk about my work and of course it's only the sights that shine. But I know the hidden corners, I know the places where it could have been better.
- [47:24]
B
I love your honesty. I love you honesty in a way that you've put the discomfort, the friction in the forefront of what you're saying. But then you still say I'm a positive designer. Because you're a realist. You're in a place where you've seen the inner workings of how to create these things. You've had the experience of actually jumping through hoops, as you said, having quite a few fuck ups just like everybody else. Because it's a continuous journey. Because when you try to see it, I always say that the creativity is called marketing problem because it's on the outside. It almost promises you like, hey, join this and you will be creating all of these things only to realize that behind all of the shiny veneers or the end results, it's like it's a hard work. It's not just like things just come together really not easily by a chance. It's just the work behind it. Because you don't ever have a ads for a bus driver going, hey, drive this bus and it will make you happy or do this and that will make you happy. We somehow feel that our expression of our being through creativity can somehow enable us to find something that we are lacking. But in the way you describe it and what have the way it really is, it's like you will find the happiness of creativity in the service to others. I think we all feel that with the attachment of our success or egoism, okay, hey, I've created this, I should be celebrated. That's not a problem with creativity. It's not for a therapist to find out what you're lacking in your life, you need a validation from someone close to you. Not rather than hoping that the public will show up and give you that. Yeah, I like it. Because what you say is the community aspect is the service to the others. It's kind of keeping moving and knowing that where you're standing today, it's not the place you were standing 25 years ago. This is a terrible analogy, but you move it every day, forward, forward, forward, and being willing to come back and have your realistic on things that might be hard to do, but keep showing up and being obsessed about it every day.
- [49:19]
A
I also think this is the way to be sane, to keep sanity, because your job is to deal with other people's problems all the day. Nobody comes to you if they don't have a problem. You're not needed as a designer, and you not only need to deliver problem solving, you need to bring poetry to the table. And because it's not only about solutions, it's about virtue, too. How do you do this? And the way you do this is by still keeping hopeful and positive. And this job can bring you down because you're having to be empathetic to other people's projects, other people's problems, take them on yourself and add to that your ambition, what you're projecting to the project, this anxiety of wanting to move the wheel of design. If you're somebody who's ambitious about the general picture of design, and these things keep adding up and piling up. And unless you find ways to keep a positive mind and find brightness where you're having to take on all these problems, it's very hard to keep up on a profession for long enough.
- [50:30]
B
You have nailed it on the head. Because if other people haven't got a problem, you haven't got work. And what happens? They pass the problem onto you. And our assumption is it's not a problem, it's an opportunity. But it's an opportunity wrapped in a problem. If you think about it like the opportunity is there to create something. But ultimately, what you said beautifully is someone else probably we have to deal with, but we naively tell ourselves, oh, son of a Chips, I love this. But one thing you said in the same answer was that you have to bring poetry to the table. That's a lifelong commitment. Even to say that sentence to bring the poetry to the table is. I can see things from a different perspective.
- [51:08]
A
I have to say that honestly. If you look at the work that we do, and you mentioned it, how it has somehow rooted in time, somehow timeless ways of solving design and so forth, the way the common ground between all of us. And bear in mind that there's a lot of souls and energy put into the projects that you see in our portfolio that are very different is those two things. The idea that, okay, there's a problem and you're there to solve it, but you're also there to solve it in style, bring virtue, bring poetry. There's a certain visual poetry that doesn't mean beauty. Something can be very ugly and be the solution of a problem and somehow be poetical. And I'm a firm believer of not only solving a problem, but solving it with a hint of visual poetry. Well, that's something that is very hard to understand, very hard to pass on, very hard to explain. But we designers see it, you can see it where something that to somebody is only ugly for you has poetry.
- [52:09]
B
You said earlier that one day when my needs are gone, I'll think differently about it. But in this final answer, what you just described, you're. You're in for the long run. You're in it for the long run because to explain the way work and what you want to get out of it is very unique. It's a very much a poetry in itself because if you care so much about the work, you will always find a way to see things differently. How you can help other people, how we help them grow, and what you can do with it. So I am very happy we had a chance to have this conversation because I've learned so much more about you, about how you work and it's given me a different layer to seeing what mutual does. And look, I'm excited of what's going to happen next. So yeah, thank you for being here. Hopefully.
- [52:52]
A
No, it's an absolute pleasure spending this time to with you and yeah, hope to see you soon.
- [52:58]
B
We'll have more conversations very soon. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions. So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Banks podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.