Podcast Summary: Daring Creativity – “Dare to Build a World, Not Just a Brand”

Host: Radim Malinic
Guest: Mike Perry (Founder, Tavern Agency)
Release Date: March 2, 2026

Overview

This episode of Daring Creativity features a candid, wide-ranging discussion between host Radim Malinic and creative leader Mike Perry, founder of Brooklyn’s Tavern Agency. The conversation dives deep into what it means to build brands—with a focus on creating immersive worlds rather than just surface identities. Mike shares his career journey, agency philosophy, and thoughts on timelessness in branding, the value of chaos and subculture, and the balance between trends and authenticity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Career Journey: Chaos, Craft, and World-Building

• Background: Mike Perry describes his upbringing with parents in education and hospitality, blending “service and creativity” in his outlook ([06:11]).
• After art school at Tyler School of Art (Philadelphia), Mike’s path traversed NBC Sports, various agencies (Quaker City Mercantile, JKR, Designbridge), and a stint as a creative strategist at TikTok before founding Tavern Agency.
• Emphasis on learning skills at every stop—design, branding, leadership, and team management ([14:47], [18:38]).
• Hospitality is a thread throughout: “The string between all of it is hospitality. And that comes from my parents ... and myself bartending and serving in country clubs and hotels. That’s the connective tissue.” ([22:14])

2. Between Chaos and Craft: The Role of Subculture

• Mike draws on his early love for punk posters and music design, seeing “chaos” as essential for creative spark ([09:10]).
• “You need the chaos. You need the subculture of it all to really make the corporate brand-led of it all. Without subculture, we wouldn’t have icons.” ([09:10])
• The importance of lived, analog, and serendipitous experiences instead of just algorithm-driven Pinterest boards ([10:48], [11:51]).

“We have a Pinterest rule in our studio where it’s like, absolutely not ... because of algorithms, because we’re all looking at the same thing.”
—Mike Perry [11:51]

3. Tension as Source of Timelessness

• Timelessness isn’t static or magic; it’s built on ongoing effort and the right kind of conflict:

  “It’s the point of the graph that keeps flattening out ... you keep going to not get it, but that’s what gets you to that level, right? Timelessness doesn’t just happen.” ([00:08], [27:25])

• Mike’s process (“modern heritage”) is about uncovering and updating the DNA of brands:

  • Deep research, including physical archives and even eBay sleuthing for historic brand artifacts ([27:25]).
  • Avoiding nostalgia or retro for its own sake; focus on translating brand heritage for today and tomorrow ([31:16]).

“The deep secret is not Pinterest, it’s actually eBay. You find stuff on eBay from heritage brands ... menus, matchbooks, a weird clock that was made in the ‘70s.”
—Mike Perry [27:25]

4. Trends vs. Transcendence

• Mike laments the velocity of trend cycles in a digital world and the lure they present to brands ([45:08]).
• Preference for grounding work in “brand at the heart” rather than in passing trends ([45:50]).
• Short-term, trend-driven branding is contrasted with the aspiration to create platforms and worlds robust enough for long-term growth.

“Good design doesn’t just survive trend cycles, it transcends them.”
—Mike Perry, paraphrased by Radim Malinic [45:08]

• Analogy to music: The difference between a timeless classic and a fad is in foundation, execution, and authenticity ([32:33], [36:04]).

5. Brand Guardianship & Creative Endurance

• On why so many rebrands happen: high staff turnover on brand-side leads to short-term thinking ([40:57]).
• The designer/agency’s role is to act as long-term guardian, resisting unnecessary overhauls and protecting the integrity of the brand world ([39:32], [41:58]).
• New leadership should innovate, but upon solid, enduring platforms—not dismantle them needlessly.

“If you’re good at branding, you’ll create a brand that is impenetrable ... it should last a minimum of five years. It should last a lot longer.”
—Mike Perry [41:58]

• Brands should strive for a world that is expandable—ultimately, “the brand world becomes a universe” ([45:08]).

6. Optimism for the Future of Branding

• Despite acknowledging the challenges posed by formulaic trends, Mike is “weirdly optimistic” for the future ([50:51]).
• Predicts a shift back to more tactile, analog, and human encounters post-pandemic, enabled but not defined by technology ([50:51]).
• IRL (“in real life”) connections are seen as the true foundation for exciting, resonant brands ([50:51], [53:24]).

“We’ve been in this stagnant phase ... of branding that’s just strip it all out, make it all clean ... but I’m wildly optimistic ... technology is going to push us back to analog, human experiences.”
—Mike Perry [50:51]

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Chaos & Creative Fuel:
  “You need the chaos. You need the subculture ... without subculture, we wouldn’t have icons.”
  —Mike Perry [09:10]

• Against Pinterest Overreliance:
  “Algorithms, because we’re all looking at the same thing ... you need to breathe in the chaos.”
  —Mike Perry [11:51]

• Defining Timelessness:
  “Timelessness doesn’t just happen... It’s built on tension and ongoing push.”
  —Mike Perry [00:08], [27:25]

• eBay as a Design Secret:
  “The deep secret is not Pinterest, it’s actually eBay. You find stuff on eBay from heritage brands.”
  —Mike Perry [27:25]

• Trends: Allure and Danger:
  “Trends grow by exposure and die by exposure. They’re alluring ... But it doesn’t make sense.”
  —Mike Perry [45:50]

• Music & Timelessness Analogy:
  “All you need is three chords and a truth. You need three things off eBay and the truth.”
  —Radim Malinic & Mike Perry [49:53]

• On Building Worlds, Not Just Brands:
  “The goal is ... expand the brand world into a universe. That should be ... with everyone who comes on.”
  —Mike Perry [45:08]

• Creative Endurance:
  “We as designers and creative agencies are literally on these brands most of the time, far longer than the brand managers.”
  —Mike Perry [39:32]

• Optimism for Branding’s Future:
  “I’m wildly optimistic now ... people are wanting more of back to what things used to be, which felt more real and more human.”
  —Mike Perry [50:51]

Important Segments (Quick Reference)

• [00:08] – Timelessness, heritage brands, and the difficulty of achieving it
• [09:10] – Chaos, subculture, and the roots of creative innovation
• [11:51] – The pitfalls of surface-level online inspiration
• [14:47]-[18:38] – Career progression, learning leadership, launching Tavern Agency
• [22:14] – Blending hospitality, experience, and world-building in branding
• [27:25] – Modern heritage methodology; eBay for design research
• [32:33] – Music as an analogy for timeless brand-building
• [39:32]-[41:58] – Brand guardianship and fighting against short-termism
• [45:08]-[45:50] – Trend cycles vs. transcending trends
• [50:51]-[53:24] – Optimism for more authentic, IRL branding

Final Thoughts

Radim and Mike provide a refreshingly honest, detailed exploration of what makes brands—and the people behind them—truly daring and creative. Their insistence on chaos, tension, and the messy, lived reality of creative work stands as a rallying cry against formulaic, purely trend-driven design. Listeners are left with practical insights into research, leadership, and authenticity—as well as a contagious optimism for returning to more human, immersive branding experiences.

“If you do it right, the brand world becomes the universe.”
—Mike Perry [45:08]

Listen for More

Tune into the episode for more on Mike Perry’s agency philosophy, radical optimism, stories of floating giant pigeons on the Hudson, and much more about creativity, identity, and the future of branding.