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- [00:02]
A
Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform.
- [00:12]
B
A short review helps every show to.
- [00:15]
A
Be more visible to new listeners and provides them with value. So thank you for being here and for helping out. Thank you.
- [00:38]
C
You need to have your why. You need to find your why where you're going. And I said, and I realized, I said, you know what? You don't. You can just sit there and drive and enjoy the ride. And I think forcing myself to have where do I want to take the studio? Why is my end goal and everything. I think that took out of the pleasure of the ride of this too. That pressure constantly what is your purpose? Where I want to take this to Jennard, man, sometimes we just want to enjoy that. We just want to drive and enjoy and across and see where that take us. And I think that's the beauty nowadays, like you said, scaling down and have more freedom. I think that's the beauty, the scaling down because he has less on your shoulder than can give you more time to think and to change the direction you want to do. And you can go as that fits to you as well.
- [01:35]
A
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections, actions and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Marinech. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens.
- [02:14]
B
When you dare to create?
- [02:20]
A
Today I'm speaking with Thiago Meier, Brazilian animator and founder of the Cookie Studio based in London. In our conversation about his creative and free childhood, growing up surrounded by Japanese culture and his mother's art gallery in Sao Paulo, Thiago developed a magician approach to creativity, saying yes first, then figuring.
- [02:40]
B
Out how to deliver.
- [02:42]
A
After moving to the UK with limited English and two suitcases, he worked his way up from serving coffee to running his studio. Despite output success a few years ago, Thiago experienced severe depression that nearly cost him his business and marriage. Through therapy and honest conversation, he since learned to prioritize freedom over growth and to focus on on what truly matters. Now he channels his Energy into being the advocate for mental health awareness in the creative industry. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Thiago Meier.
- [03:20]
B
Hey, Thiago. Welcome to the show.
- [03:23]
C
Thanks so much, man. Thanks for the invitation. I'm really excited to be here.
- [03:26]
B
I think you're my first Brazilian on the show. I need to really check my notes, but I believe my first Brazilian. Not my first Latin American, but first Brazilian. So for those who may have never heard of Thiago Meyer or Cookie Studio, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:40]
C
Well, that is a really difficult question, man. It's something I always ask myself. Gonna introduce me, like, commercial way. But I'm Thiago Maia. I'm the creative director and founder of Cook Studio. I've been design and animator for the last 26 years. But I feel myself more nowadays. I like to say more like a magician. I like solve people's problems in a creative way. I'm not the best animator in the world, I'm not the best designer in the world, but I make shit happen. That's what I do.
- [04:11]
B
I love the word magician. I like it, especially in the creative industry. People like you to be a magician. Sometimes you're no magician and people want you to be a magician. Because as we all know, a lot of the creative work happens not under perfect circumstances. Right. They don't happen in a way, we would love to have them happen. But I've got a habit of rewinding things back with my guests and to see where the creativity started at the beginning. And it was, as you said, you've been animating for 26 years. I want to find out, like, what was it like to be growing up in Brazil, where you from? And what was it like to be a kid in Brazil? And what was the creativity surrounding you? Because from wherever we are, from wherever else in the world, we've got this idea like, oh, it must be very creative country, must be very colorful, must be amazing. But how was your childhood of bringing in creativity?
- [04:57]
C
Yeah, I think going back to that time, I think on the great side, I think was really good. Like you said, Brazil is a massive country, is huge in culture. Every state is a different culture is the north and the south of the country is completely different. Just for people understand, to fly from south to north of Brazil takes about eight hours flying to cross the country. So as you can imagine, it's a lot. Color is a lot. Visual expression and visual things you learn and absorb all the time. But I've always been like a creative kid. I Always really like doing things by hand build crafts and things. My mom always let me play a lot and be quite free to do. Like when I was young teenager I used to do cartoon courses. I always want to draw. I never been a really good drawer but I always want to be illustrator or be involved in creative My mom's I think when I was about. I'm really bad with dates but when I was about 14 years old something around them. My mom had a gallery with a business partner. He was a painter as well. So I used to spend a lot of time in the gallery. My mom had a lot of friends was a painter. So I used to spend time on the gallery as well and trying things painting, building things with Plasticine and so I always be involved on the creative around me. But I think I always had the choose side. I never felt I am artist or creative then Well, I don't draw really good. I always had friends that draw a lot better. I always had people then do a lot better things than me. But I always like pushing. I used to love stop motion. I think that was one of the main reason jump on the track here. But I moved to UK because of Aardman. But as a kid I always had the freedom to explore. I think in our time, especially back in Brazil I used to play on the street. I used to build my own little cars. Then we used to go down real downhills and play with dad. My mom didn't even know where I was the whole day. Then with Danny, 80 years old. I used to go to another countryside with two friends. Was kid of my mom friend. I was 8. The the couple was 7. Was 9 years old. We used to leave the school and look for hour alone in a seat to arrive to the swimming class. And so imagine how kind of my mom was on that time. My mom was really like open spirit free I think maybe too much let's say like that. But made me the way I am. So I had a lot of freedom to explore things. Was really good.
- [07:38]
B
I mean there's so many things to unpack because yeah, I think your mom was a free spirit. But I think that's kind of a childhood of the 80s and 70s, isn't it? I mean I got very similar stories of just getting up at five or six o' clock in the morning go to a hockey match across the town on my own when I was 7 or 8. I mean it's just unbelievable to think that's what would be happening now you both have kids and you can't really Imagine your child working for an hour through a swimming lesson with their pals. Like, everything's different now. But you mentioned that you had friends who were a lot better at drawing than you. And I think we all have those friends. We all have those amazing friends who really are talented beyond belief. They're not creative today. None of them are really creative, at least from the people that I knew. They're like, what did you do with your talent? What did you do? Whether you disappear. Because what I'm trying to see here, with what you described so far, I want to see what was the inspiration for your stuff? Because your mom had a sort of gallery with her business partner. There was lots of painting. There was lots of stuff. But was there any particular draw for you? Thinking, I want to be as good as this or this particular artwork inspires me or this magazine? Because you said you were making cartoons and stuff. Was there any pop culture or any type of design or any creativity that inspired you?
- [08:57]
C
When I was young, I had a lot of like inspiration come from outside. Nothing then really stands out. Wasn't the style I love, but was the injection of creativity in my veins. Then had the freedom to, well, explore oil paint, exploring drawing. And I think with the freedom my mom gave me, let me do like little courses. I think the biggest thing for me was back in the 80s 90s in Brazil was cartoon on the TV. I used to love talking to Pink and the Brain, he man, all that kind of GI Joe and all that kind of things. But also we had a lot influenced by the Japanese we used to have. For who doesn't know Sao Paulo, where I'm from. Sao Paulo is I think the fifth big city in the world. And Sao Paulo has the biggest Japanese community outside Japan. So we don't have Chinatown as like New York, London or main key seats. We have Japanese style called Liberdad, called Liberty. And it's all like with the lamp post. It's all like Tokyo styles, like old styles. And I grew up with a massive Japanese community. One of my best friends in school was a Japanese called Tiago as well. But he was Tiago Watanabe. His grandparents was Japanese. So we had a massive influence from food and a lot of Japanese culture things. Some I don't remember when, but little. So all the packaging, all the manga, everything we could access that. And on the TV we used to have this. I'm talking before Spectral Man. I don't know if you remember that, but we used to have a one called Jiraiya. Was a ninja and was Like a live action with big monsters. Like little old style. Pretty much what they call Power Ranger the new version but was like an old 80s, 90s. And they have this called Jaspion as well. Was a guy then turned into a robot. A massive and fight big move that was a massive. On my influence on my life. I still want to produce something on that scale nowadays. I got really influenced by that kind of ninja and things my mom had also. So my life is a mix of going to the math side because my brain is really. I'm really good in maths but I always want to push to the creative side. But I need to force myself to be a good drawing of things like that. I'm not but so I used to spend time on my mom's head of these friends. They used to have a garage, a mechanic garage. And my mom was just fed up of me spending the whole day on. On the gallery and say Go Dan, I'm gonna ask them to give you a job. That was probably like 12, 11 years old. So I used to spend time on the garage as well washing like parts of car, helping them. But I have access all the tools. I'm fanatic for tools. I love tools. I used to go in like big supermarkets where it has a two shop section with my mom and I used to stay there the whole time. And my mom just used to whistle to call me and I hear was really loud and come back to her. So I used to do like a ninja stars really sharp and throw things. In my time you could buy like gunpowder really easy. 10 years old I could buy gunpowder. So I used to make smoke bombs and throwing place and things like that. So it's a kind of a big mix inspiration on my early ages.
- [12:26]
B
I absolutely love this. There's so much in this and reminds me I've been recently catching up on the Dead Dream book by the one and only David Lynch. And there was a story like literally how him and his mate pretty much made a bomb when they were like 10 years old. I mean when you rewind it back to what could be possible, it's in a way it's hilarious. And it's like you're kind of lucky with some people that I think in his story like someone lost a foot but they managed to sew it back on. But what you're describing here is a beautifully free spirited childhood full of explorations and discoveries. And I did not know that Sao Paulo had a Japanese town or whatever. And I think what I can see now from the work that you do and from the influences that you described. Oh, that makes sense. You've got your maths sort of part of your brain, or the sort of logical stuff is here and then the creative stuff is on the other side. And you beautifully mixed it together. Because what I see what you do and how you do it and how you think about it, it's like, okay, I'm just got these dots and we can start joining them because it all makes perfect sense now. So 23 years ago you came to England. What was the draw to get you here?
- [13:31]
C
Yeah, that's a good question.
- [13:32]
B
Man.
- [13:33]
C
If we're gonna unpack this. It's a mix of feelings. So basically, as I said, my mom was a big free spirit. My mom used to live like in a kind of Fisher village in the coast of Brazil. What? They didn't have lights or anything? And I have two sister, older sister, and my mom used to live with them. I start living with my grandparents when I was young, before I was born. So my mom was working and my sister spent a lot of time with my grandparents. And so my grandfather was a pilot and he end up. They end up moving to la and he used to do LA Tokyo. So my sisters moved with my grandparents to la. So basically my two sisters start their whole life in American school, start in America and moved back to Brazil and stayed in American school. My grandmother was an English teacher. And I'm really bad with language. Really bad. That is the worst place I can go. So I grew up with basically my sisters. When they need to talk about me, they all talk English. With my grandparents and everything, I tried to learn English and was really bad. So when I was 21, I had a girlfriend, we broke up. I was really like, I'm gonna call depressed, but like kind of a emo situation. You wanna put you down, listen, shit music, make you sad, that kind of thing. But I got a job. I was working on the industry already and I got a new job. And that job wasn't a really creative was to do like things for politician in Brazil and I do like more shit commercials around. And I was really unhappy. And I always want to move and to learn English. So that was like the bottom for me. And I said, you know what? I'm moving. And as I said before, I always love Europe and I always love England special. I used to love stop motion. I used to like the first place I worked for the first three years. We used to do a lot of music videos, MTV stuff. So was really creative. And we used to do a lot Stop motion and man I was in love with Aardman I used to build my own rigs and try Plasticine and I said you know what? Fuck all I sold my car I used to have a little mackie that a little colorful ones monitor I saw that and I said I'm going and no one believe in like in 34 months I had everything bought my ticket and said I'm ongoing didn't speak the language didn't know anyone didn't have iPhones or how to man I have until today is I have here I have the map I moved to London was a map then my grandmother came here a few times and it even doesn't have a jubilee line jubilee line for who doesn't know was one of the latest lines so doesn't exist there and I move with the map I studied the map I knew how I gonna come came with two massive suitcase until I get here was winter and everything got dark so for me was I always love explore and I think it's part of being a creative as well. I can't settle down in something for too long and and this build up as a kid then fuck I need to learn English because man being Brazil and I started working on the 1998 the only way you really learn software is doing internship or looking books you didn't have Internet support there and books you need to study English so I could read the basic but I needed to learn the language to be to develop my career so that was one of the biggest part for me. We'll be back after a quick break.
- [17:19]
A
This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Co. The first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent. With a mission to make a positive impact on the creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [18:06]
B
I love the jump. I love that this is what I'm going to do. This is going to have what's going to happen and that beautifully old map we're not being passed down in generation serving you as a sort of guide that that's a beautiful setup for what's next. So you landed in the uk, you landed in London, you've got your map what happens next because as you said you know your love for admin for the stop motion for doing these things, that's the draw. The language is the second draw. What did you do when you landed with your two massive suitcases? What happened next?
- [18:38]
C
Yeah, that. That is a good question. Like back in Brazil we don't really. You don't really work in bars, restaurants, things like that if you don't come from let's say more like a poor class. So when I land here, always being open, whatever comes from, whatever I want to do, I go in and do. And what I'm. I don't feel ashamed to do anything. So I landed to this house. Then I had up to 16 Brazilian people living on their house. Man was crazy. A mini kitchen, no living room. But it was good because I rent from Brazil and I had six weeks that paid and I need to find. And people helped me to find work because the difference of the currencies is huge. So I could stay for a few months here without work. So I need to find work. So I landed a job in the Queens Elizabeth Conference center doing setting like a T spaces, coffee based. I had like conferences that happened serving food and I did like dinner things. I work in the bar on the Royal Albert Hall. I was the fellow managing the Royal Albert hall. So I'd fill up the bars. I used to love. Man that used to be because it wasn't my real job and it feels like I was in another life. That really make me happy as well. So wasn't anything could go wrong. Doesn't really matter. I could go back to my country or anything. But that gave me the support to start meeting people, practicing the language and start studying. I paid the school for one year I was going to the school and working the free time. And that for me was like one of the biggest impacts time of my life because of the whole experience I had. I would have never had that back in Brazil. And that I think is a really strong. Made me the way I am nowadays as well.
- [20:27]
B
How did you feel with your sort of early limited language abilities? How did you feel being thrown into sort of working on bars and especially dealing with people who are usually not able to speak properly at all at all.
- [20:40]
C
Man, I couldn't speak at all. That was scary. I think that was the most scary part I can say. I remember especially when you move to England the amount of accent here you get the northerns, you can't understand a fucking thing if you don't speak the language. I remember the first was on the conference and the guy gave me the job was a Brazilian guy but he Was a dick. I really hated him. And he put me with this old lady, English lady to do the cough. And I couldn't understand a single thing she said. I could speak like basically words, coffee, tea. And I remember people asking me a cup of tea. Istan said, for me, understand would be a cup of tea. But they used to say a cup of tea. And for me with no understand sounds like a cappuccino. And the only thing I could offer is a tea and a coffee. And I say, oh, do you want a coffee? No cup of tea. And I said, if you've not coffee, I'm going to serve tea. And that went waffle. In the beginning, I spoke with the other Brazilians because it was a lot of Brazilians work. But the guy was such a dick. He put me only with this old lady, like 80 years old old lady. I couldn't understand her or anyone talking to me. But I needed to serve only tea and coffee. So it wasn't that bad. But I got in that situation, like really funny situation. Then I managed to keep the job.
- [22:00]
B
On, let's say, like that I can relate to it. I mean, I arrived in England two years prior to you, and I thought I could speak English very well, only to find out, like, what is this thing? I mean, yeah, when you speak about northerners and Scottish and whatever it was, like, what, How.
- [22:17]
A
What do you mean?
- [22:18]
B
You think that everyone speaks queens English and all of a sudden realize no one speaks this. I mean, don't even get me started on like Scousers and Liverpool and all of that. I mean, it's all chaos in Newcastle, right? But you've got this sort of international impression of like what English is. And then I remember arriving and I was just like, okay, pen and paper. What did you say? What did you say? What's this word? What is that word? And it's just you switch into this sort of go mode. Like you switch into, okay, I need to work. I need to work out what these people are saying. Because, yeah, for example, cup of tea. Like just say tea, right? A cup of tea. Of course. What would you want? A bucket of tea. Like, it's this thing where you're like, oh, okay, you need to. And then you need to understand, like the colloquialism, like how brand names are part of the language. And you can. You realize, oh, this is what it all means. So that's almost the reason why I had to ask you. Because it can feel a little bit scary. But at that age, with that drive and with that Sort of willingness to do anything. You're like, you know what? I'll happily be not speaking right now properly, but I'm on the way to somewhere. So from distinguishing between cup of tea and cappuccino, how did you get to actually being creative again? What was the first sort of dip of creativity that you can in the.
- [23:28]
C
Beginning here took me I think in the first year I had this girl then was a Brazilian girl was doing a post graduation here. I always been really good with computers, installing softwares, downloading pirate softwares and all that kind of thing. So I always been really good on that. And back in Brazil in that time no one could pay a software. Even studios didn't pay any software. It was all part things. So I start helping her because she was a fine arts post graduation but she want to do some things animated on her. So I help her because the technician they have on the university was really really bad. So she used to take me to the university help her help on the computer and she introduced me to a couple other Brazilian then I used to help them. Wasn't of course the creative I want to be but was a opportunity to be back and touching like after Effects again and doing these things until my English got better. So that took me another year just helping people like this until in that time like nowadays people say it's hard to find work but you can. It's so easy in the same time because you have so many places to look for LinkedIn, all that kind of thing. But in that time we didn't have any websites or anything like that. And also I couldn't afford anything. So I used to remember the how I landed my first job. I used to go in Victoria Station and they used to have WH Smith there and they used to have this called Broadcast newspaper. I used to go I think was weekly or monthly. Well, it used to cost I don't know six pound or I don't remember how much but was a lot of money for me. I was more than I make an hour but I used to go in in the back they have this session for work. So I used to go every time and check until one day had for a junior animator, a designer and I said well I have three years and a half experience, I'm not a junior, my English is pretty shit but my work's going to speak better than me. I gonna apply for that job. And I apply and they invited me for interview was first talk on the phone is the hardest thing when you learn in the English any language you can speak with people face to face. You can pretend you talk or you understand. But on the phone is no pretension or you understand or not. So I was really nervous. I managed to get through. I went in a quiet room, managed to talk on the phone, get an interview on the interview had a. This guy called Ralph was Australian dude, similar style. We really connect. He was the head of the department and the other guy was an English guy, was a dick. That guy I remember, he's still a dick. And he really didn't like me. But Ralph really liked my work. And so he brought me to the department. They gave me the job. And man, I remember today when you learning the language, it's draw all your energy. When you in your environment and speak that language. You really need to concentrate and force yourself to understand what they talk. But I remember in the meetings no one gonna ask me any question. I'm just a junior. So I tried forced to understand the basic. And any job came in my direction came as a brief. I could go on the Internet and check things. So was my first job I land. I'm really grateful for that. And I spent the first two years work with them there.
- [26:55]
B
So tell me more about Ralph, because Ralph clearly has changed. Ralph clearly has changed the sort of trajectory of your career. I liked how you talked about the fact that you used Internet the way of understanding the briefs and being thrown into this department. So tell me about his influence and what was the studio that actually you worked in?
- [27:17]
C
Yeah, the place he used to call ETV was a production house. They used to do a lot of live show. They used to do a few things like for brands like Thomas Cook and brands like that they used to do from graphics to live action. But also they used to. In that time, I'm talking about probably 2004, 2005 maybe they used to have. I think UK was a massive. Then they have the live show you call and you bet money on that kind of things. So they used to be the main production house did that kind of thing. Was a kind of a shit job. But was a really nice opportunity to do idents and do like Stings similar to broadcast but in a different way. And so was really nice. Wasn't the kind of creative job, I like it. But was a really good introduction to start working. And Ralph was still a big part, we're still friends. And Ralph always was kind of older brother for me that he look after me. Ralph was like man, a beast. He came from Australia. He used to be a professional cyclist and move Here and. And learn 3D here and change from being a model and professional cyclist to be a 3D. And so he really. We connect really well. So we used to do a lot of things. Like I always loved sports and gym and things. And Ralph was fittest, like a fucker, like he was a beast. So we used to eat, cook our own food on the George Foreman Grill. We used to eat really health for me and him. We used to cycle, we did London to bright Ralph, we used to surf. So he got into kite surf and took me with him. I kite surf about five years with him. We used to go almost every weekend kite surf. So it was a big part of that transition from arriving London, working on bars and restaurants and move to my industry. And Ralph, after I opened the studio, Ralph worked with me as a freelancer as well. So it's really nice transformation what you had.
- [29:18]
B
Well, Thiago, I have to say I've recorded many hours of this podcast and no one has mentioned George Foreman Grill yet. That is the best sound bite at George Foreman Grill. I mean, I mean extra points for that one. So I mean, I'm glad I asked about Ralph because he played quite pivotal role in obviously like making sure that new environment actually worked for you and actually you felt at home. So you mentioned, and you answered that also. You then started your own studio and Ralph was working for you. So what was the sort of inception of obviously you working for etv doing things so that more or less served you as a sandbox. But you mentioned it was not the type of work I wanted to do, but I did work anyway. So what is the sort of artistic longing, artistic expression like? Because we now know that obviously you come in from Sao Paulo, there's the Japanese influence, there's cartoons, there's all of this sort of expressive stuff. And you've working on idents and would you call them Astons for a gaming show? So which obviously doesn't add up just yet. So how do we get from this to what is now Cookie Studio?
- [30:23]
C
So I always knew what I want to do, always being really focused. And when I moved here, I knew that begin was a transition for me to get back and work to be on the creative industry again. So everything I did, I'm not gonna say I did with a goal, but I did with internally. I knew I wanna work, I wanna get back on the industry I need to go through. This is a period for me, this is a just a phase that I'm going through. And ETV was a big part because it Was the first time I managed to develop learned the language as well as I said. That was my third full time job I had. And I don't think I work well with a full time job because I get involved in the politician. I always had business mentality. Then when I see things not working properly it get me really annoyed. So on the ETV I went to speak with the owner and talk about things I thought was wrong on the company that was a mistake I did on the other job I had in Brazil as well. So normally no one hired me again on the companies because I said to too many truths let's say like that. So. But I met another person really important on my career was Matt Sang. Still a really good friend of mine. I call him as my godfather in uk. Matt is a bit older than me but he's been in the industry longer than me. And he was like fucking amazing work 2D after effects. So he's doing a lot of film stuff nowadays. And Matt was a freelance. Was one of my first contact with freelance. Then came to work with us. So I was fed up with the work and I want to go freelance. So I start connect to people and I managed to get one gig with another guy called Chris and I was to do a music video. So I used to do on the weekends and. And the people really loved work with me always being really fun and whatever you throw on my direction even if I don't know how to do. I used to go home, do tutorials, figure out come next day and deal with that shit. And that's how I always did. So I did really well going freelance. And Max introduced me to place in that time he used to have. He still have this recruitment agen system put in place. Matt put me like in Cartoon Network, places like that Nickelodeon so and everyone start loving work with me. So I start freelance and I freelance I think for about seven years. And I had this friend, he used to have a studio in this kind of warehouse old building that they transform everything like low cost artist studio. And I went in the pub once with him and he introduced me another friend, David Pocou. David is amazing artist, art director. And we met and he was looking for a place and my friend said oh, there is a place just in front of us, there is a unit free. And we said oh okay, let's rent there. So we rent but not really think about business or anything and just rent. Because I was fed up to work from home. I'm like a. I need to see people, I need to go out meet people and everything and we rent. And there I talked to David and I said, so what are we doing? We gonna just have the space as a studio and each one does your freelance or should we start something, you know? And he said, ah, so we start. We decided to start. We did a whole branding we're supposed to call Los Muertos means the best. But then we did the whole brand identity website and everything we understand is my name is Thiago, his name is David. Pokou is a Spanish. We gonna call us Muerto. How are we gonna explain the email or the URL to a British person? We're gonna need to spell the whole thing out. Even my name I need to spell. So I said, we're not gonna get any work. So we forgot about that and we rebrand. We thought we want a short name. So it start sk we used to call Cake Studio and then we start. I had a lot of contacts on broadcasts and so we start getting work when we get the jobs. I used to start tell them, oh, we work as a studio. Now they are. But we don't hire a studio. Said, listen, you can pay us the same. We're going to do the job in half the time because we two now and. And we get the same money as you pay one freelance. So we start working more like this. With the contacts I had until we had enough work, we could build a short reel without using anyone's work. And then we start selling ourself and start getting a little bit more work.
- [34:52]
B
Love it. I love how this is all snowballing. And what I really like about what you said earlier is that I didn't know how to do this thing. So I went home and I sort of googled it and I worked it out. That's the magician, right? That's pretty much like the beautiful part of being a designer at that time. So many jobs, so many commissions, so many projects were created by people who said yes to something. They had no idea what they were saying yes to me, just that only to go home and like, how do I do this, how do I do that? Love it. Absolutely love it. So I'm loving the get go, I'm loving your go get attitude. In a way, this is a one way direction. This is where things are going, things are heading in. And Cake became Cookie at some point, right?
- [35:34]
C
Yeah. David decided to move back to Barcelona 2000 just before I think we opened Cake 2010. So I think after two years he decided to move back and we really trying to have the studio in both places. So we rented a couple desks on our friends called device in Barcelona. But in the end it didn't really work. Spain didn't have much work to do and so all the work came from here. So turns to be a little bit more difficult to manage between me and him. Two business owner in different countries not having two business. So David decides we decided to split. I kept the studio and he went freelance. But it's a new phase in my life so it's no was a good opportunity. I kind of used that as always been really good in marketing. So I used that as opportunity to rebrand the studio and also opportunity to reconnect to all the clients because it was a new name and everything. It's always trying to find leverage a new opportunity. Why I'm contacting the client just not for asking, just work. So that I rebranded the studio as cookie and start everything. Not start from the beginning but kept what we had. Redid the website, the logo and the brand and start approaching clients again.
- [36:53]
B
I think what you said was really helpful to anyone who's listening to this. Especially in the time of elite generation specialists and all sorts of people hovering. Some sort of weird tag that sends in a millions and emails an hour to call prospects reconnected to existing network is what really makes your business grow. It will make you kind of weather the changes and actually going back to people you already know and you established the connection with is invaluable because it's going to be age old question with people like how do you get work? Well now we've got a lot more people out there doing the sort of the woo woo magic stuff. I pass thousand pounds a month, whatever and we get you. We'll send you send a cold email to 5,000 people and you will get two phone calls. You're like well that's stupid, isn't it? I mean why? Because you ultimately what you want to really want to do is to work with people that you know or people like you, you admire and you actually create this sort of sort of relationship with RA than be anything to anyone. Because I think we can now afford to be the right thing to write people. So I'm liking that Cake got slimmer became a cookie. You are reconnected with your contacts and you're working and obviously you go to sort of the fresh piece of life. So it takes you almost all the way up till now where you've established your studio, your the roster of your clients is incredible. The work is looking great. There's self Initiated projects that obviously a transcending studio as well. But the way I got to know you is obviously on a speaking circuit where you very much open up about the other side of being a creative. It's so far, even though that you've talked about quite a few bumps in the road, things, some obstacles and sort of things that you need to sort of overcome. It's kind of like a one way street. It's taking you forward. But you quite openly talk on the stage about the things that were pretty much a setback. Things that after years of pushing and working and creating, we're like, you know what? I don't feel what I do anymore. I feel like this is not exactly the right thing. I don't get the satisfaction anymore. And I think it felt like you were quite spent by everything because by the time you've been doing all of this, you got married, you had a child, you built a studio. Everything's looking kind of great on paper, on the outside, but on the inside is not. And I'm sorry that we've gone from a happy cookie everything to bringing down to the real side. But I admire honesty as I'm someone who very much I live and breathe the honesty. I mean, this is why we have in this conversation while I publish my books. And it's always nice to hear a sort of another voice on the circuit in the industry to say the stuff that you feel really sad about in your privacy, about yourself and you feel alone. You're not alone. Obviously you very much do that as another voice and do that. So how do you get to realization that what you do doesn't feel quite right anymore?
- [39:47]
C
Yeah, man. That day I quote the dark times in my life. I would love to say, I realize in a nice way. I just. I would love to say suddenly I realized I wasn't happy, but wasn't like that. I was hit by a wall and something I never believed is a depression. I had a massive mental breakdown. 2021 was the best year of this huge pandemic was. I know it's not great for a lot reasons, but pandemic for me was amazing. The studio was amazing. I was traveling even I spent time in Brazil, spent time in Mexico. But what's the app? Then suddenly I got the hit and I realized what I'm doing. I'm not happy. And that hits me not even to think I wasn't happy going in a way. Then I stopped function. I didn't have energy to, you know, leave the sofa. I want to watch tv. The Whole day. I have the team to run. I need run the studio as minimum as possible because the studio was running well. I need direct the project, but you know, I need to be in a call here or there. But part of that I was like, man, complete facts. And that was a hard time for me to. I'm still trying pick the pieces and glue them together. It's still in a process then it's been what, about three years? This process then almost cost my studio, cost my marriage. And I've been divorced since last year. And I said in the talks, in the lectures I do, I didn't even give a. I was in a situation then didn't. I was like in autopilot, in automatic. And I didn't even think I was just going to try and survive. And it hit me really badly. And that's why I love sharing the story when I'm going through. Because I realize this being like a 80s kid, I realize we grow up like swallowing that shit. Boys don't cry, you just move on. The only way to go is pushing through. And so I never really spoke. I didn't even have a vocabulary to talk to people about what I'm feeling until I met a friend and he said, man, why you don't talk? If you want to recommend you to my therapist. And I used to hate the word therapist because my ex wife used to you need to do therapy. You need to do therapy. You need to do therapy. And I said, fuck, I don't need to do therapy. I know my problems. I need just focus and keep going. And that's not reality. And I think most of the 80s people now is doing all the therapy is the therapy time. But I start opening to people and I remember clear this friend Elio. I went then we weren't like, it's not my best friend, someone I didn't talk much and lived in the same build I used to live. And I said, I gonna do as everyone say, because first, no one give a fuck about your problem. Second, the rest is happy than you, worse than that. So I said, I just kind of go move through and say, man, my life is great, you know, all good. But as you said, you are honest person. I'm like that as well. I can't bullshit. If I don't like someone, I need to go to that person and say, I don't like you, man. And I said, you know what? I'm not like that. I'm gonna say, man, I've been through in a hole now I'm in a Shit hole. I've been going through a lot difficult things and suddenly opening a little bit with him. He said, man, I'm going through things as well. And we start sharing. And he introduced me to his therapy and that gave me that light in the end of the tunnel and said, whoa, maybe I need to talk to more people. And I start opening with a couple friends. Not everyone was willing to listen to you or had the maturity to talk to you about. But I surprised by friends. I wouldn't expect them then to accept or to give me to listen because sometimes what the only thing we need is to listen. That's why I learned about therapy. I used to be against, but I realized therapy, we live in a kind of a buzzy world, a really a lot white noise around then. We don't spend one hour of our life to concentrate and thinking about what is going wrong. And going to therapy forced me to pay someone to talk for one hour and make to listen to myself for one hour what I'm talking about. And that make me reflect through the week what I said about. And that opened completely different perspective to think about therapy. So that was a big change on my life for me.
- [44:21]
B
Would you describe India sort of the 80s attitude. It's actually still prevalent in some of the places around the world. I mean even whatever you think how developed some countries are, it's about the emotional intelligence of the sort of micro society at large of actually how do we influence other people about being actually able to open and being able to listen. Because you said you didn't feel like you can speak with some people. Like some people were actually surprising you that you can speak to them. Because I think there's this great quote that says when you try to solve someone else's problem, your problem becomes much smaller in return. Obviously you open yourself up to other stories and other problems and other situations that you might not necessarily think from your own perspective. And when you think about our creative process, it's ultimately very selfish process because we want to do our work as best as we can. We emotionally spend ourselves so much on this. And then obviously because we've invested so much time and energy into this that we don't always have that emotional capacity, that empathy for others. And this is why we often build up this sort of this residue of energy that's badly spent. They can bubble up and form of a burnout. As you said, like you feel like you hit a wall. You had no, no energy. And I think it sounded like it's an extreme version of I just Needed some rest. I needed some time away from this all. Because you've been working for about 16, 17 years by then, and it's. That's a buildup. That's a lot. And there's a lot of chat. When you speak to people about Zeigmeister's sabbaticals, you're like, oh, I wish I could do this. I mean, only he could do it. It's like, oh, even Sagmeister didn't think he could do sabbatical. Or even the first two. He blacked it. He made it work. But he had that genius idea of actually taking some time out by actually doing things that can take you off that hamster wheel, that you're on and on and on and on and on. Because it's so easy to get stuck just to do the same thing over and over again. And you haven't got. If you haven't got a product, clear strategy. And, I mean, it didn't sound like you didn't enjoy the work you were doing at first. Like there was a stuff that you enjoy doing, but that could be also the demystifier. Because people think, hey, do what you love and you will never have a breakdown. I was like, yeah, that's a bullshit. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned what the happy word quite a few times. How do you define happiness? How do you define that feeling that you didn't have?
- [46:49]
C
That's a really good question, man. I think thinking what I went through and I'm going through to define happiness, I think happiness for me is having freedom. I think happiness, it is having freedom. And I think running the business, a lot of people confuse that, especially like the young generation. They say, I'm gonna open a studio. That's the reason I open it. I'm gonna direct my own work. I'm gonna do the things I love. Yeah. But once you are business, you have built to pay, you have stuff and you need, or you have a few partners, then take off everything else, or you need to run everything and come from a place. Then I didn't understand any of them. I need to learn on the go. I think that really burns me out. And I didn't have the freedom to create what I wanted. My marriage didn't give me the freedom. At some point, then s. I want to be. I'm not saying freedom to be a couple, but not being a couple. But it's the freedom as a person and in the relationship, the freedom to be the father I wanted to be. So I started being really Unhappy because I felt trapped in the loop of relationship, work, parenthood, all the things then none of them was making me happy. But I think what was I felt trapped. I fell a bird inside a small cage, then couldn't fly. And they're really hard for me and make me really unhappy. I think that's what is happiness for me is to have the freedom to really in every aspect. Nowadays I am the dad I wanted to be with my daughter and makes me super happy. Who knows me, knows how much I spend time with my daughter and how much I like doing crafts, sports with her. And she's 8 years old. The work I'm still struggling to get back. I still having ups and down. I was hit by not just all this mental breakdown, but we being hit by the industry being really bad the last couple two years. If the industry was good, probably would be easier. But I think that's all part of the lesson that I needed to learn and I need to learn hard. Because all my life I as I told you, I focus on something. I push through and I get what I wanted and I'm a person. Then therapy made me to understand I'm a person. Then I create goals, but I create a list and I go and tick and I tick every single goal I put on my list. But I don't enjoy the process I lost then through this years, as in a relationship, a parenthood or at work, I lost the enjoyment of the process and there I feel I lost the happiness.
- [49:47]
B
There's a slight reminiscence of the 80s when you said I needed to learn, I need to learn hard. We tell ourselves that we need to learn hard, but we really shouldn't need to let hard. We really shouldn't need to learn hard. I mean, obviously life happens to us, but it's like how we process stories and how we process narratives influences how we see things forward. So I mean, I very much understand your story. My story is very similar in a way that the lack of freedom, which would beautifully explain as I was like a bird in a case you couldn't fly because I was once upon a time studio owner. We had staff, we had work, we had everything. Everything was going great. I thought I was buying my freedom by employing more people to fit. I went and I did the opposite. I was like thinking about the definition of my happiness because I used a similar word like I was unhappy. I was stretched. I was far too stretched. We had a second child around the time Pandemic was great for us through books and through work and all that stuff. But, oh, my God, like, the body just didn't have the energy and the space to metabolize everything. I think it's a beautiful sort of poetic proposition of, I'm going to have a studio. Well, go and have a. Go and have a chat with 3, 5, 7 studio founders or people who run big studios, have a coffee with them, listen to them for 20 minutes at least, and you'll be absolutely put off for the next five years to run a studio. Because it's hard, isn't it? It is the reliance on cash flow, reliance on projects. Obviously, you have to look after people's mortgages, national insurance, all of that stuff like, that takes a lot out of you. And because you get into this industry because you want to create good stuff, that freedom isn't there anymore.
- [51:36]
C
Yeah, I think the young people, or when we were young as well, we don't realize that, but I think you. You kind of lose the freedom you lose. And. And I think in the past, people used to have that goal. I want to have this studio. That means it's a big thing. But I see a lot of friends of mine then is a single person, then do their own work, do the artistic work, do the paid work. And I say that is freedom for me to look. Of course they struggle as well. There is struggle everywhere. But it's like you said, hiring more people, you think, oh, I'm gonna hire someone to do this, but means you need managing more people, you needed to delegate more people because the studio doesn't run without you. And people don't really realize the more people you have, the more you need to stretch yourself in the areas as well.
- [52:25]
B
Very true, very true. And I think there is no shame in actually scaling back because I think there's a lot of liberation and actually freedom to express yourself and say, hey, actually we used to have a lot of people in the studio. Now it's just me. And guess what? I'm actually enjoying the work a lot more because you don't have to fill up your cognitive space with so many extra worries and so many other people's stories and so many sort of expectations of people, sort of skills development and sort of career projections and that kind of stuff. You can actually focus on what you can create because that ultimately takes you very much to the beginning when you really wanted to do the stuff. I guess we all have to go through that messy middle. So we need to learn. I mean, do we need to learn? Hard as a question, but it gives us that experience to actually understand. Maybe the definition of happiness is a freedom and not needing to go back to the difficult times. Actually, happiness is knowing what the peace and calm can look like. You know, how we can actually do all of this stuff. In one of your lectures, you mentioned that you don't know what you're doing and you don't have a particular purpose in your creativity. But you speak so fondly about your daughter. You speak so fondly about the future generations and how we could do not actually how we could do how we should do better for the future generations. And I thought at that time when I was listening to your talks, like, your daughter is your purpose. This is where you really project your energy, like how you do stuff and how you sort of drive yourself. Especially after, you know, this really sort of dark time. You got that guiding light that takes you out of this. And when you said I've got no purpose, I'm like, when I speak to him, I'll tell him he's got a purpose.
- [54:07]
C
Thank you. Now that's me alone, man. Because it's something I think as any business owner, we always get like a business consulting to help us. And everyone tends to be that kind of trendy that you need to have your why, you need to find your why, where are you going? And I said, and I realized, I said, you know what? You don't. You can just sit there and drive and enjoy the ride. And I think forcing myself to have where do I want to take the studio? Where why is my end goal and everything. I think that took out of the pleasure of the ride, of the studio, that pressure constantly, what is your purpose? Where I want to take this to you and I, man, sometimes we just want to enjoy that. We just want to drive and enjoy, you know, and across and see where that take us. And I think that's the beauty nowadays, like you said, scaling down and have more freedom. I think that's the beauty the scaling down because it has less on your shoulder than can give you more time to think and to change the direction you want to do. And you can go as that fits to you as well. And I think that's really important for people realize because it's great if you have a goal and that's what you want to do. That's what I did my whole life until I hit that wall. And I said what I'm doing now. But it is for me, it's nice to hear you say, because my daughter is someone then inspired me to work to be a better person and also to be a better Parent.
- [55:34]
B
I think we are all very thankful for Simon Sinek to very much spelling it out to us, like start with why. But I'm like, dude, I've been working for 16, 17 years. By then I didn't know my why at all. It was like as you said, we were just driving, we're coasting, we were sort of wherever. Like it's when you go to sort of stream of a river, it's just. It just takes you wherever it takes you and you go with the flow and realize we could have got somewhere much quicker and firm and potentially easier. But that journey of getting lost is never going to be always comfortable and easy. But actually you're going to discover things you would have otherwise not found. Because I mean there are so many conflicting messages that as you say, there's so much noise out there. There's so many things that sort of can absolutely confuse especially young and an inexperienced mind. But would you have done what other people have done, especially in the past was like they went with their North Star inside them going, this is the type of work I want to do. This is what I want to do. The word niching wasn't really used by more than one person somewhere on the other side of the world. We didn't care about this because we would find yourself in a natural niche about the work that you want to do. Because again, the work that you do now and what you produce very much always makes me now think about you being influenced by Japanese culture, calling yourself a magician, kind of doing this sort of stuff that it's there. And I think you would never sort of put that in a business plan going for. Okay, Thiago, right. How are we going to get these Japanese anime cartoons? How are we going to get that in your work? How long have you got? Because you will spend years doing this because it comes out naturally. And I think this is something that the purpose of us older creative is like, how do we potentially explain it to our children and give them that open canvas, that free sort of free space and go. You don't have to be anyone for a long time, just as long as you enjoy yourself. Get lost in everything, try everything, taste everything, smudge every color and see what you find in there. Because we losing the innocence, we're making tools which are more plug and play, which are more about reiteration rather than imagination. And I wonder where we go with this. So as a creative parent, as a fellow creative parent, how do you see your influence potentially in your, obviously in the life of your younger, young Mind that you've got and yeah what you see in the future and no pressure on this one.
- [58:02]
C
To be honest. I think this is something nowadays all my life and the situation I am I think is is a big point on my life. Then helped me to see a little bit the light in the end of the tunnel. I think my daughter teached me more than I teach her in every day as a human being, not as even a creative sometime. And my daughter is really hands on draws every day, writes books and she writes mini books. Now we start start doing stop motion. This week we're doing a little mini film. So I'm giving her. I think my place is to give her the tools and the guide and let she experiment what she can. When I look back how I grew up you ask in the beginning I had that freedom maybe less guidance because my mom the way she was and I think I would love to have more guidance like kind of a mentor then could ah, you can do this and give me the tools to do so I think I see myself in her life now as not as a mentor but as someone. Then guide her and give the tools but let her as a free try and experiment with different approaches. If she want to do drawing, let's do a drawing. If she want to color. If she want to. What we wearing Paradiso and I run that workshop with Tina. We did no pixel allowed. So was no cameras, no digital life. We took everyone's phone but we had this disposable camera so people could capture for we create the making of and we have few extra left. And I brought a couple back and I gave to my daughter one. And I said this is a camera. And she okay, where do I see? I said you see this little cube? You look there, that's a prediction what you're gonna see because it's not a proper. It's a disposable camera. And I said but you really need to think what you want to capture because we have 24 films here and cost money to develop the film after. And if you ruin all of them, we just waste money. So what I'm giving you that is not the phone you're taking and go and take many pictures you want. You really need to look, you need to think what you want to capture and you need to start understanding. I said we have two cameras, you're going to do one. We're going to develop the human. We're going to see what you did right and wrong and we're going to try apply on the second One. So I think as my place nowadays is to guide and give the tools then I think I didn't have on that time, but left her to explore as much as she wants. Because as you said, she keep telling me I want to be an actress, but I want to draw or I want to write books. I said listen, you don't need to decide anything now. Now you need to be a kid, you need to enjoy what you're doing, okay? And I'm here to give you the tools to try different things and discover really what you want. And I said even don't force yourself when you go to university because you still too young to really understand what you want to do. Because some people maybe discover what they want to do when they're 40 years old or some people never discover as well. So I think as a parent that the biggest thing for me is to have an open mind, give the tool to her and guide her through. And it's the beauty to see they discover and get excited about things and let it fucked up as well. We all fucked up in life. I think as a parent you want to fuck up your kids as least as possible and less than your parents fuck you up. So I think that's with the mentality I'm going through with my kid nowadays.
- [61:45]
B
I mean, it's a beautiful answer because when you see the tools and the little hands, how they, how we've got a perception expectation of using a camera like this or a digital camera, a Polaroid camera, whatever, like, like you want to kind of. It almost wants to establish what is the right amount of guidance and what is the perfect amount of for them, for discovery. Like they, they grow in the pathways in a way that you can tell them how to do it. But ultimately as children now, they will do it them their way anyway. And they are sort of that scarcity of the pronunciative, the photography. Like you've got 24 photo, you've got 24 frames. You have to really make a plan because Brianna used to take. Oh, can you take a photo of us? Yeah, he's seven. Which one would you want to take? It's like the innocence versus patience versus planning versus thinking. Like we, we grew up in different times. And it's interesting that you said I wish maybe I had more, I wish maybe I had more guidance and maybe I wish I was this and that for the past. But you can't change it. We accept it and all we can do is like how we used to produce this chapter with our children and with our creativity and how we influence the world that we wish to have. So I am, I'm truly excited about what you're creating, how you getting through the times that that were the cloudiest period and the stormiest period of our life. But I salute you for being an open voice, being a genuine voice and honest voice about experiences because it makes difference in people's lives. It shows into your work, it shows well in your work and pushes you in this direction. And we need more people like you. So thank you for today and thank you for talking to me.
- [63:24]
C
Yeah, thanks so much man. Being amazing. And it's also, it's great to see the way you drive this conversation because you really put some points to me. Like the purpose thing. I think it's nice. I think we forget is something I always say we need to be more kind to each other because sometimes we forget to compliment people or to say our perspective on the people and sometimes it's just a word and change that person's day or like even the career. So thanks so much for your time, man.
- [63:56]
B
You're most welcome. Thank you.
- [64:08]
A
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil MacKay from 7 Million Likes podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle in including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible.
- [65:13]
B
Wherever you are and whatever you do.
- [65:15]
A
To get 10% of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.