← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Dare to make enemies and gain fans - Freddie Öst & Erik Kockrum (Snask)
00:55:01
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- [00:08]
A
I think it was very early, like second year of existence. We were starting to have people thinking like, oh, saying stuff about us or they're young and naive and they think they can do whatever they want and blah blah, blah. We realized that we can and will never want to please everyone. And especially what we do comes from value based opinions that we stand for. Then I think it's good that people then oppose themselves against it if they don't agree with our values. That's what they should. And also in the same way, people will then also like what we're saying because they agree with it. And the nightmare for us would be generic in the middle and no one thinks anything about us.
- [00:55]
B
Welcome to Daring Forever, a podcast about being human for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Radin Malinic. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life. Every week I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories. Value. And I can only ask you, how will you dare Forever? This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre order out in October. Today I'm speaking with Freddy and Eric from Snask, two creatives who spend nearly 20 years building one of the most joyfully disruptive creative studios on the planet. Our conversation isn't just about design. It's about conviction, about building the brand like a rock band, about the strategic logic of making enemies, and about what happens when two creative minds refuse to adapt to a world that keeps asking them to be smaller. With titles of a doctor of disturbance and a daydreamer of the highest order. Freddie and Eric, they're exactly where they should be. And let's be honest, also the best two guests to kick off the new season. This is Daring Forever. And I present you my conversation with Eric and Freddie from Snask Foreign. Hello, Eric. Welcome to Daring Forever. How you guys doing?
- [02:31]
A
Hello. Thank you for having us.
- [02:34]
B
It's been a pleasure and a long time coming.
- [02:36]
C
We are good. How are you?
- [02:38]
B
Yeah, I'm very good for seeing you both on this very sunny morning across different countries, across different cities. But whenever I was thinking for guests for this season, which is based on the title of my new book, Daring Forever, which is about a pursuit of human creativity, of human passion, permission, gratitude, curiosity, you two came to me as one of the most fitting guests Obviously there's level 49 guests coming, but you two, what you guys created and what you've been doing for the last many years has been nothing remarkable because you've created an entity in sleepy Stockholm that's global, that's doing incredible work, and it feels against the grain of what you guys would normally be coming out of Sweden. So for those who may have never heard of snask, which I doubt, does anyone there? Who's Freddy? Who's Eric? How would you introduce yourself? Let's start with you, Freddy.
- [03:26]
A
Oh, wow. I'm not sure. I'm a doctor of disturbance, wizard of disruption and spokesman of disobedience.
- [03:34]
B
Eric, I hope you've got equally good intro.
- [03:37]
C
Yeah, I was like, what the hell am I? I'm a daydreamer of the highest order and otherwise I'm a direct film. Let's ask you.
- [03:46]
B
Excellent stuff. Ever got it right at. You two. Founded SNASK a while ago, is that right?
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, basically, yeah. We've been running this for ages now and snask is now 19 years old, so we're celebrating 20 next year. So it will be a party, Derek, a big party.
- [04:02]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah, it has to be a party.
- [04:04]
B
The thing is, you lose in your teenage years and you're going into basically an adulthood. What I normally do on a podcast, I take things back to the beginning a little bit and we sprinkle some of the nostalgia across the journey to get to where we are today. What was your journey into creativity yourselves? What drove you into creating SNUSK in the first place? What was your background and why did you want to do something that's different to regular?
- [04:27]
A
I think we had similar startings from music, but slightly different. I started a club night with some friends where we were djing and booking bands and someone had to do flyers, websites, et cetera. So that became me. And on from there it went, basically. And then after that I started studying graphic design and kept doing clubs and kept booking bands on newer, similar. But more comes from music as well.
- [04:54]
C
Yeah, no, exactly. I always played music and all in bands and things like that. So that world of culture, whatever, if it was filmmaking or design or music or whatever, was always the fun world and the world you want to be in. But then the funny thing was when I got a little bit older, starting to. Yeah, like you say at the 20s there when you started to go out in life more to. To and grow up then for me it was something that was used for fun. It was like impossible to have a life in that world, it was like, no, you have to study and become something serious or the regular world. But then. And that's how I discovered eventually this agency world. And then that was, wait, you can actually work with this stuff and have a job? And that was how I slided into it. But then funny, because then I thought that needed to be very serious because you needed to have your fucking role and everything and behave in that world. But then that's when I met Freddie and the whole Smask thing happened. Then I realized, you know what? We don't need to do that either. We can just be ourselves and have fun and actually other living out of it.
- [06:09]
B
You mentioned music and it came to me just now, like how much of a Swedish death metal I used to listen to and try to emulate with my bands. I think we can easily talk about like the mid-90s death metal scene, about Entombed and Dismembered and all of that. Such a remarkable era of music that has just created so much good stuff. Wolverine Blues is still one of the best albums ever. But what was the influence of music? Obviously you had Freddie were saying you were DJing and what music did you surround yourself with and how much influence did it have in your creativity? And I'll ask Eric the same question afterwards.
- [06:41]
A
I think the young people today have no clue what it means. Like indie pop, indie rock. Today it's just pop or rock or whatever. But that was more like influences. Everything from 70s rock to Oasis to Beatles. A lot of what we created as NASK has been created from our inspiration from rock bands. From Beatles interviews when they were lying in interviews, to reading biographies, to being on stage. For us, we always wanted to speak last. And then we met a lot of speakers, designers and they were like, oh, I never want to speak last because they think that the audience is tired then. But for us it's like the only thing you should aim for is to speak last. Everyone else is just pre band. For us it comes from music or how we brand our company is like building this legend about our company or brand. Exactly like the Kiss has done. Rolling Stones. Every band out there races. So a lot comes from there.
- [07:45]
B
That's a genius thing, by the way. Speaking last. I am always the guy who wants to speak first because you get it done out of way. And I always felt it's really good observation because when you can see the ebb and flow of conferences or events that sometimes people are a bit tired. And for example, speaking last Head off on Saturday. It's a bit of A graveyard shift because really people are dying. But you're right, I think that's a great influence. Like Rolling Stones will never play first, they will always play last. And that's the same with every band. So I like that. Eric, what sort of music did you have in your life that showed you the way?
- [08:20]
C
Well, when I grew up it was all about the grunge and that rock world and some stone rock music and. Etc. But Entune was there and it was harassing. I'm tuned live 2002 or something, I know, whatever. But it was a lot of great music here and around and that like. But it's like Freddy said, it was a lot of world and it doesn't matter that much about the music genre. I listen to everything as well. It could have been some whatever more experimental or jazz music or whatever that was more inspiring and one way of being creative or whatever. But it's more like the people behind it and the whole thing, how they acted in interviews or how they people used being fun and creative and being a little bit rock star arrogant too or being proud of themselves in a funny way or I think that whole thing, the attitude of being political too. Today we have the best voices sometimes around political things or things that are bad in the world or often musicians today that stand on the stages and actually say something and actually have an impact. They actually get people to think.
- [09:37]
B
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Co. The first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent. With a mission to make a positive impact on the creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with it. Exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [10:27]
A
Yeah. And they used their stage to make an influence of the world. Noel Gallaghers like Jarvis Cocker or Kurt Cobain, he did so many things that was political. When he dressed up as a woman on stage, when he came in on a wheelchair, when he is in interviews and he didn't have to do that, but he believed in something and I think that inspires us a lot because I think our industry is very nervous and tries to be very politically correct and very professional and not speak about their own opinions. But the world is fucked up and I think the design world also needs
- [11:00]
C
voices and now you have bands like Nika and they are speaking out about Palestine and everything, and there's so many other bands doing the same thing. That's the funny part. There's all these bands that had millions and millions love and follow, and they are standing there saying it, but people are still afraid.
- [11:20]
B
I think what you guys said was really important is to stand up for something, actually. You get people who will be with you and people who'll be against you, but at least you've got something that you can stand behind, because, as you said, ready? There's a nervousness because everyone tries to keep the lights on. Everyone tries to do it in a way so it doesn't upset anyone. But then in the long term, are people being true to themselves? Because I've spoken to people who say, look, I've got into the advertising world and quickly realized that I don't want to be part of this. I've seen an incredible presentation by nina Hashem from 14 Mustaka, which is a studio based in Cairo, really flying under the radar. And they've got real edgy energy about how they want to do stuff and how they don't want to do stuff. Obviously it's this, the Arab region, and they've got strong sort of emotions about what's going on. And I think that kind of feel makes you inspired and say, okay, I might be standing for a lot of things, but you can always do better. Because when everything's said and done, what have you really created? Because I think just that sort of safe world. How much we pushing ourselves? Because you mentioned from Galileo to Jarvis Cockers, they've got voices and they're not scared to say what they want to say. They don't have to be friends with the brand manager at Coca Cola. That's a different story. But equally, those are the people who are being followed for the right reason, because they open their mouths and they believe in what they say. So is there an antidote? Not everyone's going to be brave because we are differently hardwired. But how would you say that standing up, speaking up, and actually have something to stand up behind is important?
- [12:51]
A
And it's super important because you, as you say, you become a person, you become a brand, you become someone who has rallies and stand up for them. Yes, we can work with Meta, even though we don't agree with them, we take their money, maybe, but then we use our stage or whatever we have to influence people in what we believe in. It's the same Oasis have. Adidas is a big sponsor. They're making jackets. They don't necessarily agree with what Adidas is saying, but then they use their stage to say other things what they believe in. I think all musicians do this, but I think that it's super important to stand up for what you believe in. Otherwise, who are you and what did you do in the world? If people see me and they say, oh, I hate that dude because I don't agree with his values, it doesn't touch me. I don't feel like, oh, that's bad, because they don't agree with my values. But if someone doesn't love me and say, oh, I love the guy because they agree with his values, it's just make it happen. But if I was walking the streets and people like, I don't like him. I don't know what he stands for, that would be horrible.
- [13:49]
C
And the only thing fighting this is capitalism. That's the problem. It's all about the money. And then we don't say what we want because then we are afraid that maybe the money won't come.
- [14:00]
A
We don't compete with our work unless our client really wants us to and tells us, which is not happening very often. And so we don't care about. If we say something about someone in the industry or a group of people and they get mad at us. We're not afraid that, oh, they won't vote in Cannes for our project. But we know several other people who says, we wish we could say what you say, but we don't have a fuck off capital because we need these assholes to vote for us in Cannes, Ryan or whatever. And we don't care about that at all. And then they ask us, how come you have this fuck of capital? We use the money instead of entering the wars. We use it to create our own projects or other things. So, I don't know, just different views.
- [14:45]
C
We don't care. It's put in another way, we doing what we are doing, I think it's. Everyone is putting themselves always in a context. And then they're like, this is the structure of this world now. We have to adapt and behave this way. But we stopped doing that a long time ago. We have a. Otherwise we just do things we can
- [15:05]
A
invoice and people can invoice us.
- [15:07]
C
That's great. Then we can do whatever we want in terms of what we say and what we do doesn't matter.
- [15:13]
A
And people also think that SN is its own brand and has its own values. And me and Eric might not agree, but that's just no it's just. It's created from us. What we believe in is what SMAST is going to say and believe in comes from us.
- [15:30]
B
But you said what was really interesting about not putting money into submitting work for can actually making your own stuff, because that really goes back to bands and making your own merge, making your own things. When you think about. When I think about the tribalism of the rock music of any genre of any era, when you think about it, those were branding machines in a way, because you never had a problem of understanding the niche because the niche was widely protected. And I'm very still talking about death metal and grindcore and stone the rock. If you did something different, you would lose your fans or whatever because they were loyal and disloyal. But when you think about like how many things were created to. To get band bands message across or the artwork on anything shorts and I used to wear Cannibal Cop shorts when I was 14. Why? But I think about it, I feel bands were brands before the brands were brands, if that makes sense. Because you wanted to get your stuff to your people and that was just a direct message. This is the music, this is what they understand, this is what we believe in and this is the stuff we can give to us. So when you talk about making your own things, I think it goes into eternal philosophy of we can make stuff that speaks to the people that want to be behind us. Right?
- [16:43]
A
Yeah. No, for sure. People might think the Beatles wasn't like this, but they were. Their name was first Silver Beetle and then they changed it to Beatles, just Beatles. They were discussing the name a lot and then they took fake names when they went out. So Paul McCartney was Paul Ramon, for example. And they made up these fake names when they went on tour and they lied in interviews. Now then Ramones came, got inspired by Paul Ramone because his fake name and they named their band the Ramones. And you know, it just kept on going. But it's been there all the time in music. People are really been building brands, but most of them are doing from their own values and what they believe in. And I think that's where all the energy comes from.
- [17:24]
C
Also the funny with the merch thing or whatever, that. That was always the thing to. The bands could control themselves. The labels had every. Had them in the clause about most things, about the record sales or the booking, the promoters or whatever. They had them in terms of the shows. But then with the merch they could control it themselves and they could be all right, how many did we sell they could put some money on the side. Oh, yeah, we sold a thousand T shirts, but it was like 1200. Or maybe they. You could grab some extra money and actually, some of the bands, I know loads of bands that the only way they make money from the touring is through the merch, because they can do it themselves, while the other things barely go through.
- [18:08]
B
Speaking of store merch, I have been absolutely fascinated with what the Hives are putting out there because it's like the simplicity of the design, the messaging, it's beautiful. I'm not the mega fan, but it's one of those things. I appreciate the music, I appreciate the merge. I appreciate the graphic design that goes into it because it really speaks direct message to the people. And you guys did a couple of music videos and so much so that you got awards for them as well. How do you handle Band like Hives next to more corporate clients that potentially have different requirements? Because if I get it right, obviously you guys pride yourselves in handmade stuff. It was, you know, very much about digital execution as much as about making stuff with your hands, making stuff physical. So how do you handle Band like Hives the way of how snuff gets projects done?
- [18:58]
C
No, but I think first of all, it's something completely different and you can't really compare it because when you do the corporate work, you still have to do some of the corporate process and leave. That's just how it is. We're gonna be just as professional as other companies are in that world. But when you go and do a music video, you don't have that same pressure. You can be quicker, more have more fun, you can be more direct about things. You can do a lot more on a set, et cetera. You have, you know, the time doesn't go as slow. You can be. But then I think it's in terms of that style. The first times we did, we're asked to make new security deals. We were asked to. It was for the Viagra boys, in other words. And then it was a bit, oh, but you have that style of building things and doing. But it's just impossible with the budgets, to be honest, to do at least if you're going to do it in scale. There's always been two things with SNASK in terms of. Yes, we had the whole fiscal approach with the. But that's more visual thing about connected to design and the expression in that. But we also have. The other side for us has always been ideas and standing out in other ways too. The best has always been when we can combine them. Therefore, it was more about, okay, we won't be able to do that, but let's put the effort in on creating fun, small stories and ideas that lift that side of things instead. So we focus more on that than doing it. It would still breed some snazz feeling of it, but not be like the visual side of it.
- [20:33]
B
If I could ask a question. So you mentioned, obviously, like, you guys are known for this very expressive, colorful style. Obviously there is a snap style and it carries you so far that it's precede you in the world, which is amazing. But when you mentioned, did the bands want to do something in that sort of more dreamier, pastel color style? And then realizing that the reality should be somewhere else. Because what I want to really know the question is how much of that style is an asset and how much could it be a liability to attracting new clients that potentially could work with snazz. But you know what people are like, they're like, you do that colorful stuff, but we want something different. Can you do it? Does it ever work that way?
- [21:08]
A
When you rebranded Bang and Olufsen? In our world, they didn't end up very colorful. We work with so many banks, financial institutions. That doesn't become klarna, you know, doesn't become that colorfulness. And to us, we choose colors, for example, according to the project. And Eric said sometimes we have to tune down the colors, but then we can tune up to humor. Or maybe it's more fun to put the hives in a really boring office environment and have them rock the socks out of people. That is also for us, Snazky. But I think for people out there, it's easier to see snask style as very colorful. But we've done a lot of projects where it's not colorful. But yes, I don't think we will ever have a rebrand where a company wants to change and will dial down the boldness. I think that's not us will. Somewhere we have to tune, turn it up. But it's always a balance.
- [22:06]
B
So this is interesting because you mentioned there's either a color or there's a humor. Like you said, when we dial down color, then we go to humor. But what's really interesting, you said that it's always bold. Like, you always create bold work. And when you think about it, it's a bit like a DJ set or bands. When a good set is good, when it doesn't have the middle part, everything's going strong all the way to the end. Do you ever Feel that the studio has kind of dialed out to basically turn up to 11 all the time. Is there a craving for something which is more minimal or is it a bold style, the 110% kind of going on all the time. It's NASC 110%. And is there ever opportunity to do something less? Because I know, as you said, you did work for bank and all the similar, different stuff in Banks, which that is potentially slightly less intense, but it's still snask. Right. So do you ever look for something that's been more minimal or just it's snusk all day long?
- [22:59]
C
I don't think we look for something, but it will arrive anyway. We don't need to go searching for it. It's that 110% too. For us, it's one thing. For you, it's another thing. For the client, it's a third. What that means is like you mentioned, the hives for them, those standard. The music videos to come with some idea that's more out there. They might be what? Come on, we need to push this farther. This is nothing. And someone else would of course be like, this is insane. We can't even be close to this. Why did you even show this to us? So I think it's in that way, if it's bang, all of them, we can be 100% with them. But it's a completely different measurement than with other clients.
- [23:41]
A
Yeah. And then as you mentioned before, that we don't look like classic Scandinavian design studios or whatever, but if we would dress a person to go to a party and we would indeed choose a more boring navy color of the suit, we would demand it to be 110% sartorially perfect. But we would always then add. You then need to have wicks and some banter. Because to make him more charming, then this outfit works. While there's a normal, classic, boring, minimal, minimalistic Swedish age, he would just be satisfied if the suit was perfect in a navy color and he wouldn't mind about the rest. I think we would then want. But then we need to turn up the charm, the humor of this person in order for him or her to stand out.
- [24:30]
B
Humor? The humor featured a few times. I want to know how transcending is humor across continents or countries or cultures. Because what's funny in one place potentially is not funny in another. How do you dial it to the right perfection, if you can, to make sure that it works? Is it just market specific or do you look into different variations? If you do global work because We've had clients here that they were like, okay, we want to have a global rebrand and how do we do Japan and how do we do United States? You're like, differently. Obviously there's no real formula. But humor obviously is something that we all can sense and feel and it's somewhat universal. But there's still nuances in humor that can be offensive to some people. Some people might be finding it's the first thing in the world.
- [25:14]
A
Why do you want to talk about Germany?
- [25:16]
B
Reading Abi, let's go.
- [25:18]
A
No, but I think that, for example, if you take British humor, I think it's brilliant because it almost never pushed someone down. It's more to play with them in a way, it's more playful, it can be dry, but it's always playful with a winch when it's at its best. And I think that works in many cultures. Because you. I don't know, it's somehow charming in a way. But also, as we said before, bands in interviews, when they're not being just arrogant, but when they're actually being charming, funny. Like Freddie Mercury in his interviews, flirting with the presenter so he gets nervous. It's just like cute, funny and sharp and I think it transcends. We have clients all over the world and when we go and meet them, we always entertain them and hang out with them, et cetera. And humor, yeah, it goes through.
- [26:09]
C
I think it's a bit of a lie, the made of thing, that the humor doesn't transcend into different cultures or worlds. I think it works more or less everywhere. People want to laugh, people want to hear funny things. But then of course they can be completely ignorant around. If we have westernized reference in the humor, then of course people might not understand it in Japan or something because they didn't grow up with that thing, whatever it is that we're joking about. So of course in terms of the work, you need to be aware and not think that you are everything in the world, etc. But in terms of like just laughing and having fun and sometimes it's more like that people are afraid. Oh no, dad, we don't think that. We can't do that because they might be upset or we should not say this there. We heard that so many times. It's gone out anyways. It's been like a success. They're like, oh, wow, this actually worked. We also been contacted by companies from other parts of the world where things should not have worked, but they contact us because they seen that work and they're like, we never get this here, so we want this. So I think it's more about that we are afraid of each other. It's an actual problem.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah. And also I think it's a lot about the deliverance of the humor. To deliver a good humor, you have
- [27:31]
C
to be good at it.
- [27:32]
A
You have to have timing. You also have to know who you are and who the audience is. Often when we go up on stage, people already have a view of us. We're a bit mischievous, a bit provocative. And so we're in Seville, we say that, oh, you guys mix up Sweden and Switzerland. And they're like, haha, yeah, that could be a bit dramatic sometimes. And then we show. But here's your priests. And then we show a picture of Kuklu's Khan. We know that they're going to think it's funny even though it hurts them. And then we say, oh, sorry, wrong side. I think this was your priest. And there's almost no difference. And they've been hearing this joke a hundred times. People outside of Seville might think that, oh, that's daring of you to do that. When we talk to people afterwards, they were just like, oh, that's funny. We heard that joke a hundred times. So you have to understand the audience and also know how you deliver it. If we were going up as very serious speakers, which is not wrong, you can be that and then just said it without laughing and then it might be wrong. You have to also know who you are and how you deliver it and who the audience is.
- [28:34]
B
When you think about how stand up comedy works, some of those jokes, if you were to set it in a birthday dinner or something, or family dinner on Sunday, we're like what you're on about. But it's just that setting where people can let go, they can be more relaxed and actually can enjoy, actually receptive to something new. So I think the way would you guys been doing with your work? Let's say, let's use Klarna as an example. Like it's a work that is just in a beautiful way. It's odd, it's so unusual. But the elements inside it, as you say, like the humor is universal because it works almost everywhere. I'm referencing one of your projects where there's a person sitting on what looks like space like sofa from Stanley Kubrick, some sort of soft porn movie if he ever made one. It's just, it's the unusualness that you've got so much of a visual feast to look upon that it almost creates the setting obviously creates the perception of something's going to happen and something's going to be different.
- [29:27]
A
He's not looking like Brad Pitt. He looks a bit funny. And that's also an important part to make that more fun. If he was just like sexy, good looking man, then it wouldn't be as funny of him laying there in this ugly piano.
- [29:42]
C
Yeah, yeah. Or a half naked woman, which is the most classic marketing thing that people do. You have to be a little bit different in some aspects for sure.
- [29:53]
B
My curious mind is thinking about how do you get this across the line? Because having run a studio that's worked digitally in 3D for best part of two decades, the flexibility of doing stuff digitally is remarkable. You can do whatever you want, anytime you want, but what you guys create is physical. And it's not just, oh, let's pop to Ikea and get a couple of things and smash them together and paint it blue, whatever. It's very bespoke, it's very unique, it's surreal, it's. I was going to use the word psychedelic. I'm not sure if I should take this one out, but obviously you've created the delivery of the humor so well that the attention to detail is remarkable. You stand up for something. But how do you get your clients to see the project? How do you mechanically deliver it that you can then produce all of this stuff, create these props and these sets and then work on this? Because obviously that requires imagination on your part. It requires you selling this to the client. So let's say selling it as in convincing them that's what they want to do and then buying into it. How does that process work? Because it could be client, it could be any other of your projects that says expressive. But how much of a vision do you need to put into this and how much conviction do you need to show and how do you visualize it? I appreciate this is about seven question in one, but in terms of a production, like how would you get it across? Because I'm curious.
- [31:08]
A
Starting point is that you need the client to understand where are you today and where they want to go. And that difference between where they are today and where they want to go is the change we have to make. And then we go into them, how do we then change it? And then we hold them by the hand through the process and they will almost understand themselves that we need to push stuff, we need to push things. And then it's all about protecting the idea. You have been doing this a lot with clients, of course, and it's often
- [31:38]
C
also like, why are we even working together from the first place? Sometimes they come to us because they are like, hey, we love the Florida stuff. Do you? Do we want it? Then it's like, okay, then we have to do it this way. You can often reference what we're creating and why did you like this thing? The answer is there in the actual work. It's in the project. Why are we here? And Freddie said, defend, inspire them with the ideas. Have fun doing it. But it's not super easy sometimes, because what people don't understand is that it takes time and it costs money. And the Clarna stuff had a lot of great budgets. It had a lot of great actually time to do it, too. And so that's why we could go into detail and we could really explore those worlds and find the extra. Whatever it was, the material or the actual craft, or if it was part of trying out ideas and coming up with that edge. And the hardest part, that many people, they come and they're like, oh, we want that thing, but we want it tomorrow, or we have a fourth of the budget, Then it's not possible in one way. So many people, what we love and get inspired by is often the extreme stuff. So if you start, like, what music do you love? Most people have these artists and bands and things that stand out and dare to do things. If you start bringing these things up, what would this person have done? In this case, for instance, when we work with the brands from the start, we often try to find this Persona with them so we can make these type of decisions through that Persona.
- [33:17]
B
I think it's half of the battle because when you push out a work that's so ownable and such a signature style, obviously with color, humor, and all of the things in between, I think it's half of the battle to get clients who can see what you do and what you can do. As you said, Eric, sometimes they will come with quarter of a budget and 10 minutes to make it. And is the education how to do it. It's. Sometimes it's education to tell them it's potentially not possible. And there's a way to do it. But what I wanted to know. I've heard you guys talking to Eliza Williams from Creative Review on a panel which was beautifully humorous. Again, talking about clients. Was there a client that ended up with a tattoo of something? What was the story?
- [33:54]
A
We were working with this huge company in the US and our prop master, he asked us, like, should we tattoo ourselves at the end of the shoot at the rap party? Like, yeah, sure. So he hid a tattoo machine in his budget and he brought it out after the shoot, and we were like, wow, it really did this. And then we basically had to. We never tattooed anyone. We never assembled the tattoo machines. We had to YouTube it how to assemble it. And this girl, she was an illustrator. You had never tattooed anyone? She was like, yeah, I would love to tattoo someone. So she watched the video and then she tattooed in orange, and then she started with tattooing me and then Eric. And then the client came who never had a tattoo in her life and ended up with her fainting. The client manager was with a blanket over and saying, what the fuck did you do with our white client?
- [34:45]
C
We really tried her not to get this tattoo. We weren't like, yeah, sit down. No, no, this is probably not a great idea. This is just for fun. It's just us. No, I want one too. We had to listen to the client and step away.
- [34:59]
A
Yeah. But it did land us even more work because Stan the client, moved to another company and we ended up going over and doing even more work with her. And then she ended her email with the picture of her tattoo that we had matching tattoos.
- [35:16]
B
So, yeah, it makes it sound like the Uma Thurman moment. I'm not sure there's less heroin involved in the situation, but it's Uma Thurman in Pulp Fiction. So this is interesting. So let's talk about how are your sort of mechanics? Because obviously you mentioned, let's say your client with a tattoo ended up going somewhere else. And how do you guys get new work? Because I would like to believe that Mr. Signature Style of what you do and how you create work and what you put out there, how you speak, how you present yourself, it speaks for itself. And if someone's looking for something more expressive, that will really find you. But is there anything that you have to do in terms of bringing a new work? Or do you just have you done enough for the work come to you all the time?
- [35:53]
A
We've been trying to get work ourselves. It almost never works. Cold calling doesn't work in our industry. So I think just bringing out as much as we can of ourselves and what we do, then we never know what brings us work. We could do a talk in Slovenia that then lands us another talk in Azerbaijan. And then after that, we got a word from someone who heard that from someone who went to the Azerbaijankov. It's impossible to know where it comes from, or someone read our book and recommended it to a friend. But everything we do with Conviction. And we want to do it because we think it's fun and we think it says something. We didn't do shower beer to make money. We did it because we were bored and thought this was a great idea.
- [36:38]
C
We're not like the amazing salespeople or business people. That's not like why we went into this business. So to say that we didn't even see it as a business, it's more to have fun. And then I think the more we got our work out there and we show and we talk and we do whatever, it's a higher, obviously a higher chance that people see it and come to us to ask. Maybe when we have this style and attitude in our work, it's always so much better. Obviously, if people come with a idea that they want to work with us and the opposite, because we're not like other big agencies and stuff. So for us to coming in from the side with no one knowing what we are and what we do, it becomes a little bit weird. Hopefully people still reach out.
- [37:22]
B
Once upon a time, your talks featured even a live band. What was that like? Did you keep them sober enough to show up to do that bit?
- [37:30]
A
Sounds like you already know the answer to this question, Radin. Yeah, they ended up writing themselves out of that act by actually not being able to be sober for even one hour on stage. But the stories actually that we started bringing them on tour because we felt the keynote speeches in the design industry were not entertaining. And we came from music and we wanted to speak last. And we felt like we want to entertain, we want people to wake up. And so we're like, we should have a house band on stage, like a talk show. And we also signed Eric's band. They kicked the trombonist, signed a new person and dressed them in a certain way and had them sing in Swedish instead of English. And then we brought them everywhere we went. They've been playing on Colombian radio and they've been all over us and South Africa. They almost never played in Sweden, which is very funny.
- [38:23]
B
And I think you got it absolutely right. I think you guys always look at the situation of what it is and what it can be and how much better it can be. Because I think with design talks, you never really have the right template of what can be good, what can be interesting, because you've got 2,000 people in the audience and you've got potentially 2,000 different expectations of what it should be. Humor is universal, color's universal, a little bit expression is universal, but still you've got Someone who will love it and someone who will hate it. And in a way, how much when did you realize that you actually needed to create something which is more entertaining? Did you have to sit through a few conferences or did you know it right from the start going, you know what, we can bring a band with us. We can make it more entertaining.
- [39:04]
A
I think we instantly knew that we could make it better and we wanted to make something different. But if you look at the first ever talk we did was create the Mornings with Snusk, the band that had played in this place the night before, they got too drunk and never had the energy to bring their drum set. And it's always very heavy and so they just left it there to pick it up a few days later. So when we went on stage, it was already there. So Eric dressed up as a bunny and then he played with teaspoons. On that first ever lecture that is recorded, Eric is already on stage playing on this drum kit with tablespoons. And that from there it basically was, okay, we need to do this all the time now.
- [39:50]
C
That definitely sparked the idea. I think on that part, this is so stupid. You suddenly see something and then, wait, we can do this? Of course. And then it was full on.
- [40:01]
A
We never wanted. We always want to push it. We never wanted like, oh, let's have an agency band. We're Freddie plays guitar, band plays bass, everything. We never wanted that like some people do. We wanted it to have to be a really good band and have to be a re rock band. And that's why we signed Eric's band. And they are really good musicians, but that's also why they're not with us anymore, because they are real musicians and maybe also too happy with drinking.
- [40:27]
C
I think that was also. It was like a fun. We did it for many years and it was super fun. We didn't even then do it at every conference. We did at most of them. And I would also say we do even more conferences now. So it would be a mess to be so much to do. I think with most things in life, whatever, you do it for a time and then you feel like super fun or whatever. And then after a while you want to something else or a little bit different and whatever.
- [40:53]
B
I think it was Noel Gallagher who said, obviously he's always funny in his interviews and he says there's a reason why there's very few bands now. Because the record labels don't want a group of guys drunk on a Tuesday being totally useless, because you get people. He is the example of Harry Styles, it's like, shut up. Wear this, do that, sing this, do that. And I think you hit it on at the beginning of a conversation. You got more people who are more obedient to the system. It's easier to go with the flow and do something of yours. And again, I'm not saying that Harry Styles is getting it wrong. Just the I think he was greater recently is really good, even though I wasn't a fan before. But it's that sort of pack mentality when we talk about a music. And I'm like, how you get a band of men or band of humans together believing into something. Because I don't think there's anything better in life than creating music with people. Having been in bands before, as a teenager and young adolescent is one of. To create a song with people that you've led your friends with and you create something out of nothing. It's a different level of creativity. There's almost four or five senses that come together. Nobody can taste it. There's something in it. And I think just to put it out there and have it as a group of people is remarkable because I think we are heading towards a sort of slimmer margin of how many people it requires to make music. And it's normally just one. And there's a sort of this greediness of attention where anyone can do anything with all the tools. So I think having that element that you guys had in the past with a band and having people adding the extra element, I think is remarkable. What I want to know, how do you. I think in the words of John Hegarthy, who says, Every McCartney needs their Lennon or every Lennon needs that McCartney. How do you two work together? How do you vibe of each other and complementing one another, or how do you know each other like Lennon and McCartney?
- [42:36]
A
Eric inspires me so much. And we are of course, similar in so many ways and where we want us to go, but also we think differently in many ways as well, which is very inspiring for me because I think that it would be boring to have someone who thought exactly like me. And I think that when I look at Snazz, I can really see that the genius of Snusk is our two minds combined. That I can come up with an idea and Eric can twist it into something hundred times better that I wouldn't have been able to do without him. Or vice versa. I think that's something that is, yeah, really interesting for us.
- [43:13]
C
Yeah, I totally agree. It's a funny dynamic in that. But it's often like That I think it's that thing that maybe it's also. It's difficult to be engine the forefront of things or do everyone just think this is to be. Is do it however, whenever however, it's not. It's fucking hard work because everything is going to be against you. It's always going to be the norm to do it in some other way. So often when we have ideas, it can be a start of something, but then maybe the other one needs to come in and lift it because it's like, yeah, it's good, but it's normal now. Or you thought we should do it even further. And then I think that's where we are good. We like, we're both much like yes, heers in that situation. But then also to be honest, we don't work that much with the clients. We do different things. We don't. Our roles if we want to day to day is not something that you do or you don't work together in those roles really. But then it's also because it does become more difficult with the client. Then you have to take them all what they say. You need to figure it out. And that's when it can become trickier, I think because that's when it becomes a third thing going on and you have to adapt to it. And then we might not agree with each other what to, how to. In what way we should approach this, the client or whatever. Well, when we do our own things, which we do alone, then it is. There's not much breaking going on.
- [44:47]
B
It's amazing in your manifesto when you talk about stuff, it's amazing that one of your sort of main messages is actually make enemies. Like this is almost the antidote or the swimming against the current in our industry. Because you will get people who say, oh, we're doing it for the fans. Why? Who are your fans?
- [45:06]
C
In our studio on the street, we have that on the wall. Make enemies and gain fans. And then it was like one time it was a woman who came in middle of the day and she's like, why do you have this? Why do. We were like, what? What do you mean?
- [45:20]
A
This is Trump.
- [45:21]
C
This is what Trump. You, you made Trump. And we were like, what do you mean? She was still arguing with us that she thought that Trump had taken our strategy and are saying and made the world worse. But we were like, okay, it's true, he has done that, but we can't.
- [45:36]
B
Yeah, I think there's difference between enemies. I think how you understand stuff because again, you got that reality of 2,000 people and everyone would understand it differently. And I remember I used to be represented as an illustrator by agency called Jelly, and they had a poster from Alison Carmichael which spelled in hand lettering C U N T. And in England we were like, ha, isn't that amazing? This is really funny. And I remember my agent Chris took the posters to New York and they were like, off the table now, now just get rid of this. This doesn't work. And I think that nuances of like, how do you get people revved up or excited? I think it's always so interesting because you can show two people the same thing and one of them will love it and one of them will not. But when you come to believing in the fact that some people really need to dislike your work, not necessarily that you're going to make them dislike it, but when did you realize it's okay not to be loved by everyone?
- [46:26]
A
I think it was very early, like second year of existence. We were starting to have people thinking like, oh, saying stuff about us or they're young and naive and they think they can do whatever they want and blah, blah, blah. We realize that we can and we'll never want to please everyone. And especially what we do comes from value based opinions that we stand for. Then I think it's good that people then oppose themselves against it. If they don't agree with our values, that's what they should. And also in the same way, people will then also like what we're saying because they agree with it. And the nightmare for us would be generic in the middle and no one thinks anything about us. And I think that's what we believe in with branding as well, that brands need to have opinions and set up for them. And if they do this, they will get enemies, but we'll also get fans. And if you have 1% of the world as your fans, you will be extremely successful as a company. So people are afraid of this, but it's not logical. It's not a logical thought. They think it's too risky even though it's not. So I think for us it came a lot from there.
- [47:36]
B
Referenced Rory Saverin quite a few times on my podcast and he said that the world is run by people who don't believe in magic or run mostly by people who don't believe in magic. And I think when you see someone who's created something, almost including your guys, and when you see something that has really pushed into a new realms, that initially it's a bit like an album by someone you love and they Create something different. You're like, what's happened here? People say, I was expecting something different. And I'm thinking, why has it got to do with you? Because it's not your outfit. You know, the artist. It's like, why would you expect that? But obviously it's that belief and as you said in your word before, a conviction to actually create something that would push people, that would make them think, something that would be. Yeah, definitely a way of pushing ideas. And how do we move forward? Because in the current world of branding, everything's so homogenized that you can have an amazing brand from Buenos Aires and from Japan, and they can look exactly the same. Because the template's been out there.
- [48:33]
A
Yeah, no, exactly. We were inspired by Tibur Kalman, who said, when you make something no one hates, no one loves it. And he stood behind, like, United Colors of Beneath on all these campaigns that people are like, oh, this is so controversial. When it showed three human hearts. And so these are from, we all have the same heart. Doesn't matter the color of us. And people thought it was extremely provocative. But it's like, what is provocative about it? But it's great. Advertisement. And we thought that's so true. Like, when you make something no one hates, no one loves it. Why do you want to make art or poetry or music or anything that no one cares anything about? Doesn't make any sense.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah, good old Thibault. Carmen. I think that that quote, it wakes you up sometimes because the making of a modern creative is like, you want to do work that you want to enjoy. At least from what I'm hearing from younger generations, they want to do what they want to enjoy. They don't want to work on something that they would disagree with, and they would like to work to be universally accepted. Only then she realize that such work doesn't exist, most of it. And then, like, how do you recalibrate to the fact that it's actually nice to have some people not to like your stuff? Because when you allow yourself that self acceptance, it's a part of the book Daring Forever that I've got chapter on. Literally on acceptance. Like, realizing this is who I am. This is the type of work I do. And some people will like it and some people will not.
- [49:55]
A
I don't like Zara Larson's music, but I do love the way she upholds her values. Recently she made a joke on her Instagram because she's, of course, pro abortion. She just made a joke about it. Random people were like, oh, you're Going to get the whole tour canceled and a big sponsor pulled out from America, from her. And then she has wrote another thing and said, I don't fucking care. This is fine. I lost this much of money. This is how much they were going to pay me. And that's fine now because I say where I come from is my own values. Think that's refreshing in a world where at least pop artists are supposed to say nothing and be afraid.
- [50:34]
C
We were talking about before with this. Everyone is just thought so hard that you cannot do something like that, because if you do, you will lose money and power. And that's what it's all about. If you do this, it's over. Just so crazy how they managed to win and own everyone in that sense. That was the World cup with all the football players. It's the same thing. It's all about money. It's all about that world. And if you do anything that will harm that, then you're over. I agree with Sarah Larson. It's amazing that she did that and can actually show that it's possible to lose something and it's okay just so you can stand up for something that you believed in. It's so hard nowadays for people to accept that.
- [51:23]
B
I think we can spend another hour talking about money itself, because I googled yesterday, the Ronaldo is worth like 1.3 billion. It's like, why do you need that much money? What are you gonna do with it? It's just like when you think about, like, where is the end of strife, greed?
- [51:38]
C
This is just mad he's worth that much money. And then this morning I read that he gets a question about Lionel Messi and he refused to answer it and turned away. It's like a child think about all the success, all the again, the money, everything. But it's all comes down to being a little boy inside. A little human that only has emotions and only goes about that. That's what it's all about. I'm sure he would trade everything against being the highest goalscorer in World cup ever. His life is shit.
- [52:12]
A
Even though how much money he has no friends. I know, I watched her documentary about him. It's just fucking sad. But then we have Unes Olsson, a Swedish kind of not super great defender in West Bromwich for a while. And he got the question in British media or something like, who would you want to be? If you could be anyone in the world, would it be Cristiano Ronaldo? He's like, what? No, I would not. I would want to be Bob Dylan. Like why the fuck would I want to be Cristiano Ronaldo? Lionel Messi, they have shitty lives and they don't think anything about anyone. They don't know anything about the world. And he was just blatantly no, I would like to be Bob Dylan and I think that's refreshing in the football world. Why would you want to be Cristiano Ronaldo's.
- [52:53]
B
Yeah, this is a whole another debate. But guys, it was so great to see you and get a flavor of what you guys do on this because you've been unmistakably snusk right from the start. I think you'll be unmistakably snusk forever and I love what you guys been creating commercially. I'm just gutted I never got a hold of your shower beer money was in circulation. That was a shame. But yeah, I really want to see what you guys do, especially in the spaces where you can play, where you can be just NASC and just have that punk rock attitude still, again, what does the world need? What can we create where we can take some of the corporate budgets and actually create magic? Because yeah, you are definitely more than just an agency. You're definitely more than just creatives. And it's always so great to see you. So yeah, thank you for today and stay where you are. It's amazing.
- [53:41]
A
Thank you so much.
- [53:42]
C
Super nice. Thank you.
- [53:53]
B
Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, R. Malin. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you for being here and I hope to catch you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.