← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Dare to make the straight line perfect - Paloma Rincón
00:51:17
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- [00:07]
Paloma Rincon
I always try to do the best project I can, but then I also have to understand what they are really expecting from me and how much freedom I'm going to be able to have, how much of my personal universe and voice they want to hear and how all aligned they are with my previous work or with that word that they are referencing. So it's all about understanding what's the scope of the project and what's role in it and understanding that I always try to do the best project I can with what I have and with what they want from me.
- [00:55]
Radim Malinege
Welcome to Daring Forever. A podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that look us under and the strange stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Radi Malin. I'm an author, creative and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring Humans. Those in pursuit of an extraordinary life. Every week I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value and I can only ask you, how will you dare Forever? This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre order out in October. My guest today grew up surrounded by colour, texture and handcraft in Mexico City, inspiring her to turn curiosity into a professional career built entirely around image making. Paloma Rincon is a visual artist and photographer known for bold graphic photography that juxtaposes the everyday into something entirely new. In this conversation, we trace her journey from Mexico to Madrid. We talked about many happy accidents and why she believes that taste will always be the key to great work. This is an honest and colorful look at what it means to Dare Forever. Hey Paloma. Welcome to Daring Forever. How are you doing today?
- [02:27]
Paloma Rincon
Thank you for having me here. I'm doing great and I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
- [02:33]
Radim Malinege
I absolutely adore what you do. When I mean adore, I'm like fan number one or two because world of colors, your expression, what you do, how you do it, I think makes the world a better place. You're a visual storyteller and it makes me so excited and I'm so happy that you're here because I want to get to trace your story, how you do this stuff, all of it. As you know from my format, I normally say, for those who may have not heard of Paloma Rincon, how would you introduce yourself?
- [02:59]
Paloma Rincon
Well, I'm Paloma Rincon. I'm a visual artist working mainly with my camera. I do photographic stills and also moving image projects. Combining techniques and I like to play with challenge perspective, let's say, and play with what we see, juxtaposing elements, redefining their meaning, everything in a very colorful and bold and graphic and very happy style.
- [03:28]
Radim Malinege
That's a perfect summary of exactly what you do. Because I like when you said that you'd like to challenge the perspective. I know from your story that you projected your future at a very young age. Because for those who don't know, you were born in Mexico and you were surrounded by color. How did it come about that you started drawing your first still life photography and almost like visualize, manifest your future career at a very early age?
- [03:55]
Paloma Rincon
Now that I see in hindsight where I am, I can see many of my interests and many of the things I already liked as a child. But being something that I do now, I was very interested in design. I had an uncle that was a graphic designer. I was interested in film, I was interested in the arts in general. I always liked to do stuff with my hands. And I have this big influence of having been raised in Mexico with all the color and all the tactile and materiality from what you see around, all the tropical elements, the bright lights, the gastronomy. So all this has been a great influence in my work. And now that I see what I do, it all makes sense. All the different faces and the different interests that I have paid attention to.
- [04:47]
Radim Malinege
I think we got a great chance to put Mexico in the spotlight right now because I only got a very small experience of Mexico and it's a place I cannot wait to go back. It's incredible in a way of, as you said, the tactile nature, color, the signage, the typography. Yeah, it's placed like nowhere else in my opinion. And I want to know what it was like to be a child in Mexico, surrounded by film and arts and hands on approach and having a graphic designer uncle, that has potentially influenced what you do. So what I want to know what was it like to be surrounded and what did it make you feel like? Did you absorb it? Did you expect it as a reality or did you feel it was something special?
- [05:29]
Paloma Rincon
I lived it as something natural. Of course. I realized afterwards that it was not how everybody in every place in the world was raised. And it had a big influence on me, most of it. The handcraft tradition, I think that was something that's really all around whenever you have a workshop as a child or everything. We were always doing hands and crafts and all this tradition that you can see everywhere and that you find Normal. Going to different areas of the country and looking at a different style of handcrafts. How people develop their own styles and how there's this artistic dimension everywhere in a very feet to the ground way.
- [06:13]
Radim Malinege
How did you see that? The differences between different parts of Mexico, how did they differ? Because I'm curious.
- [06:20]
Paloma Rincon
I was born in Mexico City and it's a very centralized country, so you could get a little bit of the taste of everywhere in Mexico City. But at the same time, I used to travel with my parents when I was a child. We camped, we had a band, and every time we had a long weekend or a bigger holiday, we went around the country. We went to many places where we were really close to the little towns and communities. So you saw around all the people that were developing their hand frap. And this is something I really remember from when I was a child.
- [06:57]
Radim Malinege
I'm really curious. I wish I'd knew a little bit more about it, but maybe you can help me with this. The use of color throughout most things that Mexico does is vivid. It's alive, it's. I don't know. I'm trying to find a word for the biggest connection ever because it just makes you feel alive. How did you perceive the color and how did it make you feel of your surroundings at that time?
- [07:19]
Paloma Rincon
I perceived it like something natural. It was more like a contrast. When I came to live to Spain, where I saw everything was monochrome, much flat, and I saw red brick everywhere. Not having this variety of color. Not just color, also materials, different materials and a very free way to use them without having much shame about the combination, without thinking too much about it. So it's very spontaneous.
- [07:51]
Radim Malinege
I have to say that's interesting talking about a contrast because, yeah, we take for granted, sometimes unknowingly take for granted what's around us, only to when we change the scenery to realize, oh, that was special and I didn't potentially know it. But from your early explorations with your often new box of crayons and creates in still life, you know, imagery, where did that curiosity come from? Was it based on your surrounding? Or would you say you found something within you that was waiting to be discovered creatively?
- [08:20]
Paloma Rincon
I think that I always found pleasure and the ability to focus. And when I was engaging in something creative, whether it was painting, I always also used to build stuff with paper houses. And I was more interested when I was a child in building the space where my dogs will be living than to play with them. So it's always been more about creating something in the physical space, painting it. So this is something that I was able to put in my work.
- [08:57]
Radim Malinege
I think we are tracing the early creative and designer early play. Being interested more in the doll's houses than an actual dolls. I like that. Where did you find the next step towards the creativity that you do today? Because I'm sensing a lot of wonder, lots of curiosity in your life and your creativity as a child. But how did you get on to make the next step to become who you are today?
- [09:20]
Paloma Rincon
I had a chance to start to learn photography when I was still in Mexico in high school. And I remember that I completely fell in love with that magic that happened in the dark room. That was when everything was analog and you had to get into a dark room with a very dim red light and see if whatever you shot was going to come out or not and what shape it was going to take. So that felt really special because it also involved this thing about mixing the chemicals and getting the paper and developing and the surprise effect. So it was not just about taking pictures. It was also the process of developing them and making the prints and all that was involved with that. So that was my second crush with a creative side.
- [10:11]
Radim Malinege
Do you remember the first time when you saw a photograph come alive in a way? Do you remember that feeling when you said you were mesmerized with the darkroom? Do you remember that feeling when you saw that happen for the first time? Because it only happened once and you're like, oh, I need more of this.
- [10:25]
Paloma Rincon
Yeah, I do. I remember we had to do our first to shoot our first roll. It was at school, so photographed a stack of chairs that was 12 walls. So it was something that was very geometric, very architectural. At the same time, it was a lot of straight line. Something that has been following me, the straight lines. And I remember going into the dark room and seeing how those lines started to show before you would even start to understand the image that was coming from it. I remember it felt special.
- [11:04]
Radim Malinege
You said straight lines follow you, but I look at your work and I can't see any straight line. It's really interesting. What do you mean with straight lines?
- [11:13]
Paloma Rincon
Whenever there's something that is geometric and straight, it really has to be straight. And this is something I think that's kind of tension that I think that you can find in my work. There's something that's like a geometric component that has to be very sleek and perfect. And then there is this other side, which is organic and fluid and more as you can find it in nature. Let's say, love that.
- [11:37]
Radim Malinege
And now I can see it. Now you say, well, that means I can actually see it, because, yeah, I think there is something about, I would say, this sort of designer nature also, that if something should be straight and you can make it perfectly straight, there's no excuse of not making it straight. I think that grounds the image. And every time I see someone taking pictures like Titanic, slightly at an angle, I'm like, what are you doing? Why don't do that, please. But that might be just my back, Bear. Maybe yours too. So the darkroom. Do you feel with the experience of darkroom, that with the advent of digital photography, that immediacy of, oh, is this a good photo or not? Do you feel that potentially people who come through that don't have the experience or might not even have the experience of darkroom, do you feel like it's giving you better understanding and better appreciation of the craft that people today might be missing?
- [12:24]
Paloma Rincon
I do think that having learned photography in the analog era has brought me a deeper technical understanding, but not just about the darkroom, because I have to confess that I haven't been inside a darkroom for ages. It's also about all the rest of the physical dimension that photography has. The camera is a black box. We have a lens, we have light coming through it, and we have all these games, this thing about light shaping or kind of sculpting the elements that you have in front of the camera. So this is all a physical dimension. And when you have to learn deeply, having to think a lot about the different outcomes, that one decision or the other, I think that you learn in a different way. I do think that you can develop that now with this trial and error and immediate feedback that you have with digital. But it's just that before you really had to, there was no option.
- [13:27]
Radim Malinege
I think there's an element of depth when you. Potentially, when you shoot, I'm going for my sort of rudimentary experience of the craft, Right. But I feel when you know more about behind the scenes and how it used to be done, it makes you think maybe about a composition, about the way you take a photograph, makes you think differently. Because as you said, with digital, it's a trial and error. You can try 15 different settings and shoot something, and one of them might be right. But that was my question. How do you see it? Because as you said, you don't have to be in a dark room forever anymore. But I feel it's giving you some things almost like that extra level of knowledge or extra level of Ammunition that could be interesting and important to some of the creatives or some of the photographers. Now, what I want to do now is to find out how did you get yourself from colorful streets of Mexico City to Madrid, where you find things a little bit more grayscale and different? What was the jump for you? How did your career grow from college, dark rooms into the streets of Madrid?
- [14:23]
Paloma Rincon
I finished high school in Mexico. I applied for a scholarship to come to study at university in Madrid. I got the scholarship, so I moved. I was really young. I crossed the ocean. I had family here. My parents both are Spanish, although they were raised in Mexico and in Colombia, respectively. And I started to study audiovisual communication at the university in Madrid, and then I stayed.
- [14:53]
Radim Malinege
Yeah, that's a good story. Out of all places, was Madrid an easy choice, a safe choice, or was it a choice that you uncertainty?
- [15:02]
Paloma Rincon
I think that it was a safe choice in one hand because I had family here. It's not that I was moving somewhere too far away from anything that we knew. I had close contact with the Spanish culture. It was the same language. And I also have the possibility to have this scholarship that was direct to children from immigrants that had left the country, like, years ago to be able to come back to study here.
- [15:32]
Radim Malinege
I'm always trying to trace back people's feelings and experiences when they move from the place of home and they moved to somewhere new. What was your feelings like? Did it feel like an eternal holiday at first? Did it feel like, oh, my God, what am I doing? Because everything's slightly more darker and grayer. I'm gonna say darker, but look less colorful. What did it feel like for you? What was that change of scenery?
- [15:52]
Paloma Rincon
It was a difficult change. I was very young. I thought that it was going to be a maternal holiday, and it wasn't. At the beginning, I did have two get used to a different culture. Even if I grew up in Spanish family, I grew up in a different country. My family was also a blend of Mexican and Spanish ways of living. So I didn't have my loved ones like my closer loved ones, my parents, my brother, and my close friends. So I was away from everything that was known to me. And that, I think, made me grow up really fast. I had to face many situations that many people don't face, from paperwork to banks to stuff that you don't have to solve everything at once. That was a little bit overwhelming. I also think that that taught me and gave me a great dose of discipline and I'd say self control, but it's not just control, it's knowing how to deal with your own time, with your given resources and do the best that you can with what you have. I think that was helpful. It's been in the rest of my life where I've always been a freelancer and I've never had a payroll knowing from an early age how to deal with all my stuff. My parents came frequently. They stayed here in Spain with me for four or five months initially. But there was a big part of the year that I had deal with all my stuff.
- [17:24]
Radim Malinege
I'm glad you're open about it being difficult because as you said, you can expect it to be an eternal holiday. But the reality, as you said, made you grow up faster. But I feel that there's some self determination that pushes you to make something a little bit faster and further and stronger than the people from that native place of the same age. Because you've got a bit more sense of urgency, you've got more paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with. And having had a similar experience myself moving from one country to England was the fact that I believe it made me even more determined to make something happen with my life. And I think that was, in my opinion, like the first sort of element of daring forever is just how do you go somewhere with a half a plan, a pinch of plan and then color in the rest and keep coloring it and just finding out what that would be. Because there is something about that shake up, I think being comfortable. Of course, I'm not saying that this is the only way to make your life move somewhere else. Be uncomfortable, see what happens. If it doesn't work, I can always go home, as some might suggest. But if it doesn't work out, then you've got a fallback. But I think a lot of people try really hard in these situations not to use the fallback because you've got that chance to really build something as meaningful and stronger and faster than potentially put it as a local. So with the university studies and still a change of scenery, where did you find yourself next? Like, how did you start developing who you are today? Obviously photography is your tool of love, but where do we get that connection with the visual storytelling that is so unique to what you do and why you do it? You brought Mexico with you in terms of color and shapes. How do we start shaping your signature style from that point onwards?
- [19:16]
Paloma Rincon
I think it was something that happened small steps at a time. I remember having my first photography courses when I was studying at university and building my own little works. Even if it was For a depth of field exercise, somehow, like to have certain doses of control and working with small elements in a very controlled setup. As it is when you work with still life. I think that those were my first steps. Then I started to work at a photography studio. I started to have available all this gear and equipment. I started to do closer collaborations with friends as I started with Serial Cat, with Sergio. We studied together at university and we started to do stuff together with him, with other friends, many designers. So little by little, I explored many different kinds of photography at the same time. And I guess that my style started to shape. Yeah, little by little, you said, I
- [20:24]
Radim Malinege
like a little bit of vision, a little bit of control and then collaborate. Because I think what you and Sergio and Serial Cut created at that time, in a heyday of Serial Cut, was like nothing else. Literally, it was like nothing else. There was this shining star of that universe that you guys were building together. And I've been a bigger fan. I've got some of the Donut book because I was at that time trying to do similar thing in Photoshop or trying to build things with photography or illustration and kind of stuff. Because there was something beautifully escapism and surreal in the world. Every time something you guys did, I can't believe that's what happened. Because we can see, especially at that time, 15 years ago, things were stylistically predictable. So you would know that certain studio would do this and the next piece would be a follow on. Whereas what was coming out of Serial Cat at that time, what you guys were doing, I couldn't believe where you were going with all of this. Different materials, different textures. Some of the stuff was part 3D, part photography. And I'm like, this is just unbelievably never ending train of beautiful collaboration and beautifully soulful storytelling that surprised more than anything, surprised at every single time. Obviously it's the colors, the shapes, textures, the surrealism. How did it go to time? How did it come together? How do they do it? So I really want to touch on the collaboration at that time, because I think there was such a pivotal body of work for the time, not just for Serial Cut, but actually influencing so much and beyond. So what was that like to work with Sergio and nurturing these collaborations that launched all of your careers?
- [22:01]
Paloma Rincon
Well, it was great fun. It was very explorative, it was very open, it was very playful. We did a lot of personal projects together. From those personal projects, some other commercial projects came. This is something that has always happened and it was great time. The very beginning, I was working at this rental studio where photographers from different disciplines came to shoot. And whenever it was not hired, I could use all the stuff they had. So that was amazing because having elements to do a serious production, playing with lights, playing with materials, playing with surfaces, playing in a pixel. But other times when I wasn't working at that studio anymore, some of the projects were happening at my living room. You can't see that because then the result was really sleek and polished and well lit. But some of these were happening at my living room. Then I had a little studio and we worked in many different circumstances and it was a great time.
- [23:09]
Radim Malinege
Yeah, it definitely looked that way. And I think what I really want to know, because when I see your photography, and it takes me back to what you said about you building your own doll's houses rather than playing with the dolls, where does the element of vision for a photographer come from? Because some people are good portraiture photographers, some people are good shooting. Just a product. Your depth of work and the intricacy of the image, it seems so thought out. You got a signature style. That's undoubtedly. But how do you take this from an idea, for example, what you used to do with all the others, but now how do you shape idea that goes into production, that got set design, You've obviously helped with stylists and that kind of stuff. But like how much as a photographer do you have to see everything from start to the finish and how much of it just becomes halfway and an accident and happy coincidence?
- [24:02]
Paloma Rincon
Well, it depends on the kind of project. Many of my personal projects, I do them by myself. I also do some collaborations, but I do enjoy doing some personal projects that are very personal. And this is that I don't have the influence of anything else. And it's also where I can have an internal dialogue and see how I flow through the creative process. I usually sketch a little bit and I try to plan a little bit ahead, especially because what I do is all built. So you need to have a specific background, you need to have stuff to develop it. And it's not a great idea to stop shoot to go get some stuff. So I try to gather everything that I think I will need. And then from that starting point, from that ground, I. I start to grow the project. But then there's these happy accidents that happen and then these back and forth with composition that makes the projects grow and even some unexpected directions that can happen. Especially if it's a personal project, if it's commercial stuff, that's a whole different story because it all has to happen in your head before so you can put it into a document so you can have an approval so things can move to the next phase.
- [25:26]
Radim Malinege
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. You can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcofee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. This is what I wanted to know is how do you work? Do you have an idea what you want to make or do you work on certain narratives? Do you write your expressions and then you try to work on it? Or is it just a literally a sort of moment of inspiration going, I'm going to make that.
- [26:31]
Paloma Rincon
Of course, first thing is the idea. But this idea could be something very loose and doesn't necessarily have to be close to the earth. And this is the most exciting part, I have to say. When you have this initial idea and you go, wow, then you start to try to shape it and to make it and define it into more specific things. How is it going to look? How is it going to come together? You start to ask all these questions that have to have an answer before you even start to build it. What's the scale? How is it going to be lit? How things are going to hold, How I'm going to build this? And this is the base that comes with a little bit more of anxiety because you have a lot of questions, you still don't have the answers. And once you start to have the answers, you start to feel a little bit more relief. And this idea can combine with some other ideas that come across in the process and to go through this loop again, this little anxiety of more questions to be asked until you have everything more defined and you probably have the set elements that you need, or do you have a plan on how you're going to build them? Or you even made some tests about how this or that could work or not work. So yeah, this is basically what happens inside my head when I have an idea.
- [27:55]
Radim Malinege
You mentioned the word juxtaposition earlier and your work is full of absolute, beautiful extra meanings. Ice cream with a cactus, leaves. And more and more and more. Wherever you look, there's something that's got this edge where does this come from? Is it humor? Is it your creative philosophy? Or is it to make people think about stuff? Is it social commentary? How would you define that use of juxtaposition?
- [28:20]
Paloma Rincon
I think it's a bit of humor and an unexpected way to look at something. I'm a very visual person, so it's easy for me to see things in other things, to connect shapes or to connect a functionality. I often go to places when I'm sourcing stuff for my shoots. I often go to a store and ask for something that looks, and I describe a look. What do you want it for? Don't worry, I just need it to be photographed. So I just ask for things that look as other things or that I imagine taking them away from their initial function. I have a lot of fun in this. Do it yourself. Places where you can find whatever things for construction or for painting. I love seeing what's available there.
- [29:13]
Radim Malinege
I like when you said searching for something and people say what you want it for. You say, don't ask, stop the question. Sell the stuff. Let me have it. Because sometimes it's almost impossible when you try to explain to people what you're going to do with something. Because I find personally almost a little bit soul crushing when you tell someone about an idea that's so obvious to you, I'm going to do this with that because of this. And you go, that's amazing. And you're thinking, oh, I wish you had a sense of wonder like this too. Because it almost seems too natural that that's how you see the world. You expect other people to see the world that way, only to realize they definitely don't. And I say it would be beautiful if we had a world full with artists. We wouldn't potentially have as much carbon pollution. We would get somewhere further. It would take a lot longer to get anywhere in the world. But I think that sense of wonderful, I think it's a gift that I personally feel that as creative people, we should have a deep sense of gratitude that we were born that way. It comes obviously with all the other troubles, like the insecurity, anxieties, or the ambition kind of thing. Like it plays into your mind. I wish that was easier because the people making trains and whatever, they are definitely not doubting themselves if they're showing up as their authentic self to decide a span of the train carriage. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I'm trying to say we are different people. But I love that moment when you almost make someone today or make them think differently. When you just. You're sourcing something or you're describing your project you're working on, and they go, oh, my gosh, I wish that was my idea. Maybe the moments of discovery. I understand that you sometimes have a plan and half a plan, but I guess sometimes you come home with things that are totally unexpected.
- [30:49]
Paloma Rincon
Yeah, for sure. The watermelon in the disco melon crystals, that was something that was completely unexpected. I was working in this series, the Heatwave series that initially was these images that were, like, more composed, still Lives with more elements. And it was a bit of a more classical approach, although they were shot in direct sunlight with no artificial light. I also wanted to shoot at the side of a swimming pool because it was in the middle of the summer in Madrid. It was really warm, and I wanted to see the water and the freshness of the water and also to be able to jump into the pool once in a while. But these more simple images, the one that juxtaposed to elements like the pineapple, the cactus with the ice cream cone, and those just came from working. I was there by myself, just putting together stuff, and suddenly I had this piece of disco ball that my neighbor had gave me, and I just took. It was crystals. I love all things reflective and refractive and playing with these very photogenic things. So I just got that disco ball because I was also playing with metallic stuff. And then I had a disco melon. So I saw them together and I was, whoa, these two belong together. So the half disco melon I had was empty. So I had to paste every single little crystal into the disco melon. And that was the first of those images. When then I started to pair the ice cream cone I had with the cactus, like, all by shape. And this is where the second part of the series started. Somehow, by accident, by being in the creative flow completely, I was letting me go. I have my box. I was thinking inside this box of working with natural light glass at the side of a pool and with metal. But all the rest happened just accidentally, let's say.
- [32:46]
Radim Malinege
I think the happy accidents are brilliant because we spent part of our careers not knowing what we're doing. We are happy to tell everyone we don't know what we're doing. People are clapping. You're doing great, even though you don't know where you're going. Then you find out a little bit more about what you do because you realize you can't get too far on ignorance. So you learn more, and then you realize, you know what? Actually, I should not know too much about what I'm doing because that's where the sense of wonder and the magic lies. So when I see your disco melon, I don't know where this is going, but there's a feeling it's going to go somewhere good. For those who may have not seen your work, they really need to go on your Instagram and see that image because I think it became one of your trademark pictures that you did. Let's talk to you about the fact how did you do it? Because you said you had a half a melon, you did it. But when you were. Obviously this doesn't happen by accident. Let me see if I put this melon there and if it looks good, you had to create it and you had to spend some time making that. What goes through your mind when you are putting together these sets? Do you always know there's going to be a good outcome? Are you hopeful or you just kind of open to expectations and go, we'll see what happens?
- [33:51]
Paloma Rincon
I never know actually this series, I shot it in July, then I went on holiday. I was away for one month. I let that sit and I think it was mid September that I started to retouch it without having any expectations. I never know what's going to be. There's stuff that I've done that I thought that it was going to be very well received and it was completely ignored. And you never know why. After time I do see why I can understand but as being the person that has developed that you sometimes have a relationship with what you do that's very different from the relationship that other people will have from the likeness of the people or how people will receive it.
- [34:35]
Radim Malinege
There's something about the Internet, I guess about society or the receivers of our work. And it was once beautifully explained by musician called John Mayer and he said what you think is your. The Grammy award winning song is to everyone it's just ah, that's like a track number seven. Whereas what you think is your medium song like track number seven is like to everyone that's the best thing you've ever done. I think the mismatch in expectations, in our expression and expectations, it's totally different because I think when you allow yourself to think I'm doing this for myself right now and we've got no expectations whatsoever apart from me being genuine on my artistic career, that's potentially the best place to be. Of course the humanity, the biological nature of ourselves goes. But I'm expecting something out of this because I want to be validated am I doing this right? So I think it's an eternal battle just to go. Whatever goes, it goes. Right? Because it's hard just to go that way.
- [35:30]
Paloma Rincon
It's also that sometimes we create a relationship, maybe because it took us a lot of time to do it, or it was a great effort, or we are putting also expectations at that. So you are expecting an answer that is as much as your expectations, but maybe that's just your problem. It doesn't necessarily have to come or have to be seen in the same way. People are not attached to it, they didn't do it, they didn't know the process that was behind it. It was more or less difficult. So it's a completely different reading.
- [36:06]
Radim Malinege
When you think about the world that you've created, the expression of what you want to do, when you put it out there, and then the client shows up and says, hey, we've got some work for you. What level of control, expression, freedom, constraints do you exercise? Do you approach these projects with minimal expectations or do you have high ambition that you really want this to be as best as possible and then get slightly disappointed we might not be as good? So how does your work and commercial environment pair up together?
- [36:36]
Paloma Rincon
I always try to do the best project I can, but then I also have to understand what they are really expecting from me and how much freedom I'm going to be able to have, how much of my personal universe and voice they want to hear and how aligned they are with my previous work or with that work that they are referencing. So it's all about understanding what's the scope of the project and what's role in it, and understanding that I always try to do the best project I can with what I have and with what they want from me. It's better for me. And I think that they can get the most of me if I have a little freedom, or at least if they communicate in a transparent way what their needs are and I can offer the solutions I think are best. It's always about hearing them. There's some times where they just need a little bit about you and then they will transform that into something that maybe is not as aligned to your vision as you would like. But it's also commercial work. It's meant to solve their communication needs, it's meant to solve their problems. And it's not the place where you most times can do whatever you want.
- [37:58]
Radim Malinege
There's something about your signature style that is so instantly recognizable because I've known your evolution of your work through abstract, wonderful Interesting, Weird. And then I saw you shoot a campaign for Deliveroo, and I've never seen any food shot as well, with so much vividness and zest. I'm using the totally wrong adjectives to describe it, but I knew that was you and it felt so far from what I've known you for initially. How do you do it? Because it's magic.
- [38:35]
Paloma Rincon
The campaign was really cool because they were looking for someone that could shoot food, but that was not a specific food photographer. So it can give food a different dimension. So I shot these burgers that have all this cheese melting and are very gooey. And it actually connected with this thing I have for texture and for liquids and for gooey things. And it triggered personal project afterwards that was much more weird. But it was connected with this visual language and food photography where you want to make everything very appetizing and very synesthetic. And it was, for me, a great thing to explore afterwards. And I really enjoyed that camping. I still see the old Baptist falling in the hands. And that burger looks good. Good.
- [39:31]
Radim Malinege
It still looks absolutely amazing. Because there is something, as I said, as I've used all the wrong adjectives to talk about, like how it's got energy in the still life and no one's ever said on this podcast how they got a love for the gooey stuff. That's definitely my first here. What I'm wanting to know is you talk about retouch, about the mechanics, obviously, when things obviously happen in camera, and then the elements of retouching, is it something that you do yourself? You got people to do it for you. And how much control do you put into this? Because obviously, I can tell as someone who's been jock of all trades and master of some. I used to work with retouchers as an illustrator, as a sort of a third party in the retouching studio. And I could not believe how much magic that these guys were doing 20 years ago when they just said, hey, I think you need to remove the yellow in your blue channel. And you're like, what are you talking about? Those guys are masters of imagery. So how much do you have to learn about retouch and what do you know and how do you guide it? Because how important is it still to a final image?
- [40:34]
Paloma Rincon
Yes, I do retouch my personal projects, at least some of them. But I'm not a professional retoucher. I'm slow, I'm too obsessive. I can be retouching at 400% just because it feels good to leave everything super clean. So that's not being very efficient. I do enjoy doing it. It's meditational. It's when I get to listen to podcasts or some kind of music that whenever I'm doing stuff where I have to put more attention. But whenever I have a commercial project, I work together with amazing retouchers. They know how to do things great and fast. And also because whenever you are supervising something, it's better if you're a little bit outside being the one that's has been having that image for many hours in front. So if you're a little bit outside, you can spot things that are not working or that can be improved. So whenever it's client work, I do prefer and I think it really works much better not to be such involved in the image.
- [41:40]
Radim Malinege
There was a guest on a previous season of the show and she mentioned the word surrender. And I hadn't thought about the word surrender before. She was talking about food and like how we surrender to the experiences when it comes to actual food eating, food experience, environment and having the last bastion of agency about what we put in our mouths. Right. What food meant. And when I think about your work and as a photographer, like, how do you surrender to those elements? You let it go. You actually pass it on and actually see what might happen. Because as you said, you can be obsessive about your own retouch because you can be closed off in the world. And there is definitely magic in doing everything yourself. But what is it like when you almost surrender the next part of the work and just direct it and see what comes?
- [42:27]
Paloma Rincon
It's actually amazing because it's like teaming up with people that know better to do that part than you. As much as I love doing some of my personal projects myself, I even more to have a great team and to be able to team up with professionals from different disciplines that bring all their expertise and can make the project more interesting, can bring great ideas into it and can make something grow? It's a different thing. It's what you get from a personal project that's very personal, where you can be working by yourself. And I need both. What happens when you create this synergy with another professional and creative mind that can bring their magic, something that you didn't expect that wasn't in your plans. And even more if you have resources. There's a lot of people from different areas putting their little thing into the whole project. It's a teamwork, definitely.
- [43:30]
Radim Malinege
It sounds like you're surrounded by the right people for sure. Obviously we always look forward in our lives to see what's lurking around the corner. And you talked about it openly during your talk of Barcelona. Obviously there's this threat of AI and not just you, but there was lots of other talk about AI, how it might impact our work. One of the main topics that people talk about now with AI, they talk about the fact that the taste is going to be the differentiator of how we do the work. Having a taste, having a personal signature or something that will see you through. Of course, as creatives, we do creativity for sale. Someone pays us and we are creative on their behalf for them, with them, sometimes in spite of them, to create something which is really good. Obviously the taste, I believe on both sides. If you have a tasteless client, you won't be able to hard sell a taste to them unless you really surprise them and they might be open. The way I see your work, I feel this incredible longevity and resilience to stars and trends and especially AI assisted nonsense that what you do is for people who connect with it because they want to connect with their customers, with their clients. How do you see what you do in the next immediate year or 2 or 5? And do you agree that the signature style is one of your biggest assets to see you through whatever might come?
- [44:55]
Paloma Rincon
Yeah, definitely. I agree that my best assets is my voice, my way of seeing things and creating. But I don't really know what's going to come in the next years. I really hope there is still going to be a place for creators to do their thing and to be able to create and to be able to connect with other people. Because at the end, communicating and communicating is something for humans, by humans. So I do hope that this is something that we're going to have in the future. I don't like a lot of what I'm seeing right now, I have to be honest. But I really hope it will balance in a way where we do have something to say. And for me, it's just about connecting with what I want to do, with what I have to say. The kind of work that has motivated me for a long time, expanding it to places where it maybe gets more physical. Because at the end, I work a lot in the physical world, but it captured and it lasts in the digital space, at the end, maybe making it stay in a different way in the digital world. I'm exploring different things because I'm very conscious about the fact that things are changing and I do want to stay connected with what I want to do. So you just have to start doing things in AI I didn't do it when everything was starting to get done in 3D like CGI, I was still doing my things physical even if I was directly competing with that other approach. That brought also a lot of solutions to the commercial industry. So where I find joy and where I find that I have something to say. Because what I grow comes from the process that I follow. So I'm starting to stick to it and to not hear that much the voices I do hear. I do learn a little bit about AI. I want to stay connected. I don't want to not know anything about it as a tool. It's a great tool. But I don't want that to replace my practice and the foundation of my way to create and my craft.
- [47:10]
Radim Malinege
I don't think there is a way to replace creators with AI. I used to go back to the phrase from Carnegie Hall Institute when they said that it's 85% of our successes where we communicate, lead, negotiate, create. 15% is the technical skill that earns us money. And AI is maybe 1% of that whole equation. Because I think for scaremongering, for generating headlines or rage baiting, I think it's a fantastic tool. I'm not going to talk ill of it, but I've seen that Adobe created a plugin that you can create on a clawed to Adobe suites and I've got a photo that I need to fix. Let's give it a go. And I waited for 10 minutes for the photo to come up worse than I fed it in. I could have done it myself in three minutes, if not faster. It's this mirage of how useful should it be, you know, what it should do and how everyone's moving their companies forward because they're using AI. And then you read a report from MIT and it's 95% of implementation of AI and the enterprise was vastly horrendously unsuccessful because is the new thing is the new stuff and reminds me of ebooks were introduced and everyone was like oh, that's the end of print. This is going to be finished. And of course what we do as humans we go, oh, this is new and shiny, let's give it a go. Then you realize the feeling that you had from the physical item. Yeah, we're going to go back to that, right? Because we cannot replace how we are hardwired for pursuit. We're not hardwired for pleasure. We've hunter governors quite a long time ago, but we are still the same humans. We've only just marginally changing. And obviously the time of evolution and of the amount of evolution that's happening right now, it's tempting just to pursue the pleasure is this replacing something? But it's taken out the pursuit out of the equation so badly that we're realizing we feel empty. Oh, I've got something, but nothing to show for it. So when you mention what gives you motivation is obviously the pursuit of your craft. And when I look at my notes from the beginning, you said you were inspired by film art, handcraft, paper materials, your graphic designer uncle. And when I look at everything that you do, that sense of wonder and that inspiration is still there because it's human made, it's crafted, it's inspired by all sorts of different elements and disciplines and it's just beautiful. So I'm really, really happy appreciative of what you do, what you put out there because your corner of the world of the Internet is beautiful, it's colorful, and I've never been so sure about anyone else's work that it's here to stay for a very long time. So thank you for being here and thank you for doing for what you do.
- [49:45]
Paloma Rincon
Thank you, thank you for these words and thank you for these great and very interesting and deep conversation. I really enjoyed this one.
- [49:54]
Radim Malinege
Thank you.
- [49:55]
Paloma Rincon
My name is Paloma Rincon and you're listening to Daring Forever.
- [50:10]
Radim Malinege
Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of the Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show Notes of Social Channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinege. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you for being here and I hope to catch you in the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the Code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.