Loading summary
Transcript88 lines
- [00:10]
A
The way you make things is really important, what your philosophy is. And for me that is about people. And I always assume that things are going to go wrong. I try and be optimistic. In a perfect world, everything goes right. But what is my plan B? What is my plan C? How am I going to adjust when things don't go well? And I think when you work in a way that prioritizes people that they have your back, I want to see anybody that I'm working with as a creative be at their best. So that's a question that I'm always asking is what type of work do you want to do? What lights you up both inside and outside of the office? What matters to you? What do you care about? Because that's what is important. I think ultimately as a leader is to understand what makes people tick and how to work with them in the best that they feel their best too.
- [01:06]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinj. I'm a designer, author and paternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? My guest Today has spent 20 years building something rare, a studio with genuine soul. Alana Radek is the founder and Creative Director of Design is Yummy, a Montreal based studio that spent two decades doing purpose driven creative work for nonprofits, education and arts and culture clients. She's also a returning guest, back for the first time since season one and with a lot more to say. In this conversation we talk about what it means to slow down in a world speeding up, why thinking is becoming more valuable than making, and how a chocolate bar wrapper with her CV once got her a job for her dream. This is a conversation about shifting back to human and why that shift matters now more than ever. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Alana Radik. Alana, welcome back to the podcast. How are you doing?
- [02:53]
A
I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me back.
- [02:56]
B
Yes, we were just to try to work out when is it that you actually came on the podcast before? Because it was potentially one of the very first seasons.
- [03:03]
A
I think it was Yeah, I think it was the first season.
- [03:06]
B
Yeah. It's good to see you again. And it's nice to actually have returning guests because I feel like I don't have to go through some of the origin stories or some of the backstories I can actually focus now on as opposed to Bob Boss then till now. We can go from now till the future. So we can talk about the fact what you guys got working on as a design is yummy, etc. But if someone didn't listen to the first episode that I did with you, who are you? What do you do? How would you introduce yourself?
- [03:33]
A
So my name is Alana Reddick. I am a founder and creative director of a Montreal based design studio called Design is Yummy. And I'm very excited to be here.
- [03:43]
B
Let's talk about a topic of daring creativity, because this is one of the last episodes of the season and it's been explored from every single direction, almost like how people and their stories really operate now. And I want to see how the topic of daring creativity applies to what you do with your work and with your studio. How would you say that the last few, let's say few months and years have actually changed what you guys do as a studio?
- [04:08]
A
I think working in an age of AI and just generally since the Pandemic, it's been such a rollercoaster having a creative studio. I'm sure you can probably relate to that yourself. I feel like before the pandemic, things were really predictable. You had the ebbs and flows that were predictable, and now things are a lot more unpredictable. And whenever I'm speaking to studio owners, it seems like we're. Our studio is a bit of the opposite. So when other people are up, we're down, and when they're down, we're up. But that's the nature of the beast, and I guess depends on the industries that you work in and who your clients are and where their funding is coming from. So it's been an interesting roller coaster the last few years.
- [04:47]
B
I want to actually pick up on the word roller coaster because, yes, it is applicable, because you never really know where you headed unless you do the one thing over and over again. It could be up and down, up and down. But you mentioned that before Pandemic things were a bit more predictable. Would you say things before Pandemic being predictable were safer, easier, or is it what we've got now, the unpredictable stage, a little bit more fun? And does it keep us on our toes?
- [05:14]
A
I think it definitely keeps us on our toes. And keeps me thinking of how to pivot, how to pivot our services as a studio, how to pivot myself as a creative. And I think that also comes with. I've been doing this for 20 years, so I think with time that's also something that you get more used to. But I'm very glad in my initial years it was a bit more predictable and safe. I am a bit of a predictable, safe person. So I. I thrive in those conditions of sameness sometimes. But I think the way things are now probably pushes me outside my comfort zone and pushes me to do things that I might not have otherwise gone for. It's forcing me to be daring.
- [05:56]
B
It definitely is. Because you mentioned, obviously you've been going through a pivot as a studio and yourself, because you're saying I can be safe and predictable, but you are now in the unknown, in the unpredictable. So how has Elana, as a studio owner, business owner, had to adapt to the last few years and not only up till now, but actually adapting for the future as well?
- [06:19]
A
Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think as a studio, we were doing a lot of work in education and arts and culture before the pandemic. Arts and culture was one of our main industries that we were working in and actually also healthcare. So those industries changed a lot during the pandemic. The type of work that healthcare was doing before was really different than during the pandemic after, where you're talking about global issues where they're not really interested in the fun, creative projects. It's more like necessities and a lot of the arts and culture we saw declining during that time. So I had no choice as a studio but to pivot the type of work that we were doing, the type of clients that we were working with. And it also made me think of like long term plans of how to diversify what we're doing as a studio so that we can safeguard as much as we can towards future issues like that of like, how can I put myself in different industries that I enjoy being in and that kind of fit the mold of our studio that will ride those waves and those storms in the future.
- [07:21]
B
What would you say is the advice to someone who enjoys the status quo and is almost in denial that a change is coming?
- [07:29]
A
I think you put it well by saying you're in denial. Change is coming. It's here already. So the question is, what are you doing with that change? The way you used to do things before, they don't work anymore. We used to do so many Business cards. Like, for example, our studio did so many business cards design printing, every week I was printing 10, 15 orders of business cards. We don't do that anymore. That's gone. So what else are you doing in that time? What are you filling that with?
- [07:57]
B
So that's a proper old school material, isn't it? Business cards.
- [08:00]
A
I still love them and I still give them out. Because now when you give out a business card, it's rare. So when somebody looks in their pockets after a networking event or something, you stand out because it's probably the only one they have.
- [08:11]
B
I remember when I moved to London and I thought my business card was good. And then you meet people who are in higher roles and their business card is 700 GSM. Oh my God, I need that. I think at one stage I had 1080 GSM. Like it was literally like a piece of plastic.
- [08:26]
A
Use it as a coaster.
- [08:27]
B
Yeah, nearly, yeah. But it was just one of those things that people go, oh, who are you? But I tell you a really interesting anecdote. So I have worked with a guy, he used to be a very famous voice in the TV program or like a TV show or TV game show. Should I get it right? And then he became to be a voice of Garmin. He became the voice of Siri. He was the very first voice of Siri. And before all of that, I was working on his personal brand and this man's got one of the most famous voices in the world. It's quite impossible not to know his voice. And we talked about like his brand and his collateral and he said, I need a business card that is so memorable that if I give it to someone, they will know who was the person who gave it to him. But it's your voice and it's. Forget it. If you need something that people will remember, that was you. And I remember from that point onwards, and this is 15, 16 years ago, I always want to have a business card that is just so weird, so unusual, but I still have it, that it makes you think outside the norm in a way because it's so easy to bang out standard business card on digital print, just like whatever. But just to some people, functionality obviously goes first. But if you want to be in that room and go, I know who this person was.
- [09:42]
A
Yeah, well, you're talking about being memorable. And I think those materials used to be used as introduction and standard and I think they. That's how they should be used though, is to make you memorable. If you're going to put your time and energy into Making something, especially if it's self promo, it should be memorable and different and unique. Actually, our business cards, it looks like there's a scratch and sniff on it. And at one point I almost did it as a scratch and sniff, but when you actually go to printers and you test scents and stuff, it's really disgusting. I feel like if I had a whole business card stack in my purse and it just smelled like printer scents, it's really gross. So we did. We didn't do it.
- [10:21]
B
Yeah. It was only Johnny Cupcakes who said that he gives coffee.
- [10:26]
A
Oh, they put it with it.
- [10:27]
B
Yeah. They literally send their business cards, they put coffee or something in their bag and then they pull it out of it. Smells like coffee. I think it's about playing on people's senses because when you think about it, we talking about creativity from very open lens. Like, how do you make someone feel? It's like your most find the truth and you make someone feel it. And it's just a question of is that thing changing? We might be opening a big debate here, but is that changing or is that still valid?
- [10:53]
A
I love where this is going because it's totally not where I thought we were going today. And I love when conversations just veer. And I think that's where it should be going. The whole point is to be memorable and to be thought of and considered and make things that are different. And I think that's what today is really highlighting that falls into daring is you have to be a little bit daring to do something a bit strange or different. And I don't think that's changed ever. I think that's always been a constant, but now with the rise of technology, that's changing on us. How is that different in this world? But I think when everybody's trying the same things, it stays the same.
- [11:28]
B
How would you say that daring to be different is a necessity?
- [11:35]
A
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [11:38]
B
This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [12:24]
A
I think it's always been a necessity. I think back to when I got my first job. I Got it. Because I had a different business card and I tried something new and different that was memorable. There was a lot of people that were vying for this job and at the time, I don't know if I mentioned this to you before, but I had made my CV as a chocolate bar wrapper. So I was walking around with chocolate bars and that was my CV that I'd put on their desk of the hiring managers. And that's the first kind of time I did something, I would say like a little gimmicky like that. Which is why I hesitate towards scents of business cards because I know what that actually looks like when you're on a bus to an interview and it's hot and you're trying not to get your chocolate bar CV to melt. I once showed up to an interview, thank God I had a spare copy because it was just like a melted chocolate in my bag. It was awful. But that's how I got my first job. Because the hiring manager was hungry. She was doing a day of interviews and then she ate my CV and called me and she said, listen, I feel bad for not hiring you. I just ate your cv. That's how I was different then. And I think that's always how I've gotten jobs is by stepping outside my comfort zone to just try something different and not be afraid to do that. So yeah, I think daring. Anytime you're daring something, it for me it implies trying something different or at least different for you, something outside of your comfort zone.
- [13:42]
B
And also what I've noticed that behind you it says dear chocolate, you had me at hello. There's a fantastic continuity poster as some of the listeners won't be able to see.
- [13:51]
A
It's very on brand for me. Listen, we're. Our studio is design is yummy. It's not by accident. It's really Food is life to me.
- [14:00]
B
I was thinking when you were telling me about your job hunting in Montreal, when your chocolate bars were melting, you clearly went on job hunting in the winter. Right. Because obviously that would be a different conditions. I'm trying to join these dots as you're telling them to me in real time to work out what is the next dot that we can find. And I think with the word daring. I'm very much believing in word daring because I believe we need to find ourselves in a position where we avoid almost the non decisions and regrets because I think there is so many tools and so many options and so many ways of making people feel something and it's really about that thing. How do you challenge your status quo and go into something that will be beneficial to your career, to your story, to your pivot and kind of stuff? So daring is my word, because I think, in a sense, like, some people might understand it, I need to do something really crazy and stupid, but it can be as fun as a chocolate bar with a custom wrapper.
- [14:57]
A
I think it's really personal of what daring is for you. Like I mentioned earlier, like, I'm somebody who really enjoys sameness. I enjoy monotony. I enjoy routine. I'm a very just normal person like that. I don't need to do crazy stuff. But at the same time, when I do things that I consider daring, it's just doesn't mean it's daring for anybody else. It's just daring for me. It's pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And I think that's what everybody should be doing, is taking a step out of your comfort zone to push yourself a little further and whatever that means. It doesn't have to be doing something that's a gimmick. It's really about what will push you to the next point in your career or in your life or in your journey. What are you gonna do that's gonna be a little outside that comfort zone? And every time you take a step, I feel like you go a little further. You go a little further, and then you look back and it makes sense in hindsight. But you never would have gotten that far if you didn't take that first step. For example, when I was on your first season, that was the first time I had been on a podcast, and I was absolutely terrified and I didn't want to do it. And if it wasn't your friend, I would have been like, you know what? Let me just not. But now coming back, I was super excited and just happy to have this conversation, and I felt really comfortable because I had done that first step, but had I not done it? You don't know if you don't know.
- [16:18]
B
I seem to have amazing talent to actually have a lot of people for their first podcasting experience, which I never knew of some of these people, but what you describe it like, moving far, going to places that you haven't been. I always say that if you try something for a certain amount of time, not only you will make a new habit, you will pick up a bunch of skills, but you will also not come back as the same person. You will come back as somebody new. And I think that's the magic in this. But I'm wondering, like, when you talk about. And I think that was potentially the reason why I was challenging the daring to be different, or you need to be a little bit daring to be different. Because it seems to me with the advent of AI, we have to level the thinking, the level the output, level the ideas. Because all of a sudden you spend more time chatting about taste and prompts and that kind of stuff. And the most incredible ideas that used to be like the daily chat and I being pushed aside because obviously this chat about AI and this assistance, creative assistance, it seems to have taken over in a way that. Is it counterproductive to our general ideas and general sort of productivity or where are we?
- [17:27]
A
Yeah, I don't think it's counterproductive necessarily to our creation of things, but to me, thinking and execution of ideas are two very different things. So I think that's what we need to spend more time as creatives doing, and that's what I'm going to be advocating for in my talk in Vancouver, is that we need to be slowing down and spending that time thinking things through and what are we making? Because it's so fast and easy now and it's getting faster and easier to make things. So what's going to set us apart is how we think, how we express ourself, and really spending more time slowing down. On the idea part because we're going to be expedited. On the execution part, let's talk about
- [18:11]
B
thinking before we execute.
- [18:14]
A
So such a harsh word, though. Execute.
- [18:17]
B
I've never really got on with it. Yeah, let's execute the idea not knowing if it's dead, not actually made. Right. Let's talk about the thinking part, because I agree with you, we can make the stuff faster. Can we think about it faster? Do we need to do. We ought to actually enjoy the part where we can think. So how has this slobber approach to thinking and ideation works for you and the studio?
- [18:43]
A
It's been working well for us. I really think it's important to take a pause, to slow down. And honestly, that's. We've always taken a pause in our work. When we're working, for example, on brand identities and we're developing logos, it's always been my philosophy that you have to sit with it. We can do our sketches, we can do, but things take time. So even if you think you have the best idea and you've sketched it out and you've made your design, we're not presenting it to the client. We're waiting a few days. We're sitting with it, we're looking at it again. We're thinking about this because sometimes you need that distance from your work to make it the best as you can. So I think we still need those pauses. We still need to take a second and think about what we're doing, even actually take more than a second. We need more time now to slow down, to think about things before we even start any prompts, before we start to make anything. Because I feel like it's so easy to get wrapped up in the new stuff and what spits out. Yesterday my son was working on a presentation and he got so lost in Google Slides just getting all this stock imagery and he got went down a rabbit hole. And I watched it happen in real time and I was like, you need to stop, go away from the tools, sit down and think this through. What are you trying to make? What are you trying to say before you start making anything? No more pen to paper. So I think that's even more important now because everything is so shiny and exciting and new. So it's really important to sit and think through your thoughts before you make anything.
- [20:20]
B
It's shiny new and it's also used by the same people almost in the same way. So I've been browsing LinkedIn and I literally asked myself, who speaks like this? Because you see people who were clearly very good at writing their posts four years ago, five years ago, they have a mass, certain following because they were doing groundwork, really good work. They actually have an opinion. And then you see them now using words. It's not who you are. Why are you doing this? Because you've taken the soul from someone who got known to have soul. And now it's peppered with these sort of awkward, clunky terms that Claude and GPT can spit out for everyone. And I'm like, isn't that a bit of a shame? Because yes, as you said, we've got a lot more volume to execute posts, projects, whatever. But these little crutches, those little helpers, these assistants, the means of assistance actually is making content more homogenized visually and verbally. So when you said we need to sit with it, how do you convince the other side that you need time to sit with it?
- [21:29]
A
They're the other side. They're also on our side. So that's one difference. I really try and see clients as part of our team, as on our team. And that's also a shift that I've done in recent years. In my head, space is trying to work like swim in the same direction. With them. So I think by building up a trust with our clients and showing them over and over that we're with them on this, we're their partner next to them, that naturally leads to being okay with us taking a bit more time. Because sometimes we'll go forward with something and I'll call a client and be like, listen, I know we're rushing this through. There's a deadline, but I'd really like one more day with it. Not because we can't finish it today, we can, but if there's any way. Sometimes clients have real deadlines, like real hard deadlines. And sometimes they make up these deadlines in their head. But. But really it could wait a few days. They're just nervous. So I'm not shy to call the clients and say, listen, guys, can we have another day? I really feel it will benefit the work. Even if it ends up being exactly what we gave you today. I just want to sit with it. I want to think it through a little more. And sometimes we'll make adjustments and they're generally happy working really together.
- [22:36]
B
I'm trying to think of how many times I've ever seen a real deadline being actually a real deadline. It was magazines, editorial, some of that stuff. But whenever it comes to even advertising, I remember working endless hours on something which was meant to be launched a week later. And it two months still hasn't been out. You're like, oh, okay, Not a real deadline, is it? But I like when you said we swim in the same direction. I like that because you will support. You can be that little navigation ship that helps the cruise ship get out of the docks.
- [23:06]
A
I feel like it works with your water analogies.
- [23:08]
B
I mean, we are staying in the water for now, for sure. Absolutely.
- [23:11]
A
We are staying there as long as we're not drowning.
- [23:14]
B
Okay, well, this is your job because you swim in the same direction. But I need to make sure that everyone's afloat. So let's talk about the fact that what you do you believe in design that is most effective when it serves people first. Let's talk about that.
- [23:29]
A
I think design should always be human centric and focused on people, whether it's the who is using this. In the end, we're always trying to put ourselves in the shoes of whoever is receiving this material using our design. At the end, I think that's always been true, but especially today with AI and everything else, I feel like it's so important to feel the humanity in it, to feel that there's a human touch, to feel that you're being considered as a person. Like how would a person interpret this work? How would a person use this work? And for us, our studio does a lot of purpose driven work. So we are dealing with a lot of nonprofits and a lot of causes where it's very important to keep the humanity in the heart imprinted all over that work to tug at the heartstrings. That's our job in a lot of situations.
- [24:26]
B
I always get curious when people say it's human centric. What do you mean with that?
- [24:31]
A
I guess for me that comes down to engaging the human side of things. So senses like we talked about before, connecting that. But you have to feel something. For me, I want people to feel something. And for me, design that makes you feel, even if you hate it, if you feel angry, if you feel sad, whatever those feelings are. I want people to feel something when they look at our work. If they see it and huh. And then toss it aside, then that's not a job well done to me. I want people to have a reaction.
- [25:01]
B
I like him because you said you want to feel humanity. You talked about feeling humanity. What is the approach from the craft perspective? We talked about the ideation part. You got more time. But now if the execution stuff like where do you guys go when you want to make people feel something? How far do you go in the ideation stage and almost engineer those feelings? That making people angry sounds quite fun for a while, but yeah, how do you put this together? Like where do you go for the tactile nature and that kind of stuff? What planning goes in? And again, I'm adding extra questions to the question, but is it sometimes budget restrictive or do you manage to push things through that actually more beneficial to push things further for the client's benefit?
- [25:47]
A
Yeah. I think sometimes when we talk about budgets with clients, it almost feels like the designer is always advocating for. You're always looking for more budget to do something bigger and grander. And I try and look at things from a different lens, especially when we're working with nonprofits where they're very tight on budgets. So how do we maximize what they have? And that's something that I look at. What is the most we can do with the least? And that's how I approach it. So sometimes it's how we execute. It doesn't necessarily matter. It's what are we trying to achieve? What is the end goal here? And how can we do something that's going to help get there? And sometimes it's not even design. I've had Clients call me about a project and I convince them out of it. Maybe that's a bad business practice. But if I don't feel it's something that will actually benefit what they're trying their goal or what they're trying to achieve, why are we doing this? What is the point of making another flyer, another brochure, another piece, unless it's moving the needle forward? So I think the way we see that is lots of conversations, lots of talking to people, lots of being, supporting our clients, being in their spaces, understanding who they're trying to reach and how they're trying to reach them.
- [27:05]
B
It's interesting you said that you're thinking that saying sometimes no to a client makes might be a bad for business. But it's the element of speaking up, it's the element of care, is the element of saying, hey, actually you don't need this because you and I are from the same generation of designers. And you said something that really reminded you of some of my philosophies. When you said we tried to make the most with the least, that was a sign of times. It was just, what do you want? Everything. What you got? Nothing. What should we do? Everything. And what with nothing? Okay, let's go and make it. This would be the most, most fascinating sign of times because do you have budget? No. When you need it soon. Okay, all right, how do we do this? But it was the drive and that energy of let's do this. So I like that philosophy leads into working with clients now, because having learned through all those data points for those past lived in experiences and crazy client budgets and also the crazy client projects, it makes you more equipped to this era. When you say people are looking for more budget. And I always ask myself, like, if you ask for more money, how much more money is enough money? Because you see people with massive budgets, they're like, hey, this wasn't enough. And I'm thinking, but where is the measure? Because how often have you had people who would say, yeah, we had just good amount of budget. It almost never happens because you always find it's a bit more like with life. You get millionaires, people who make million dollars money, whatever, potatoes a year, and they're still skinned because they spend it all. So it's just like, how do you almost inbuild the element of curiosity, gratitude, observation. That obviously works.
- [28:41]
A
You're talking about what's enough? What is your definition of enough? What is your definition of success? When is enough? Is there ever such thing as enough budget? And usually when we're working. There could always be more budget. I would love if our clients had more budget to throw at us for things. But realistically, I think also in today's time where a lot of clients are trying to do things themselves, even we saw things like vistaprint came and took over the business card printing industry. There were so many things that keep happening and clients. Okay, I'll just make this with ChatGPT. I don't need a designer. I'll use Canva. I don't need a designer. There's so many places where we're being cut out of the conversation that I don't think it works the same way to. You can't bloat budgets. You can't pad things the same way. I think you could maybe 10, 15 years ago. It's just not the same. I don't know. The industry is changing. I don't see the same big budgets, at least not as a small studio and at least not with the nonprofit clients we're working with.
- [29:38]
B
That's a very specific sliver of the global industry that was never going to be filled with big budgets. But you mentioned something which had to write down, which was, we've been cut out of the conversation because of accessible tools. On reflection, I am ecstatic that we have been cut out of those conversations because there were usually draws with people who wanted everything for nothing. And when you gave them everything for nothing, they were like, I don't want that. I don't like it. Being actually able to pass it over. I think that's a win, right?
- [30:10]
A
It is. But I don't think we're fully cut out of those types of conversations because what I'm seeing now is potential clients we haven't worked with. And they'll say, I have a great idea. I ran it through chat. I just need somebody to execute it. They'll say, I have the design, which is interesting. They'll say, I have a design and they'll send me something that like a PNG from ChatGPT of what they want for a mockup of a package or something else. And they'll say, this is the design. I just need you to make it. It should be nothing for you to make it because I already have this design as a base. But really they have nothing. They have garbage. So it's almost like a false sense sometimes that they have a starting point. So I don't feel like it's fully weeded all of that type of work out yet. I hope it does, because those are not the clients that I really want.
- [30:56]
B
Yeah, it's a really interesting one because I'm lucky that I've worked with legacy clients that I've worked with for many years, and I hardly get any new clients. And that kind of gives me that warm glow because I don't have to start new conversations and convince people that good ideas and good design exist. But there is something in empowering people to actually have a go themselves, realizing the maximum limit are the immediate limits, and then go, actually, I need someone to solve it. Because when it came to butchering ideas, people used to use word art and word clipart or whatever, all of that stuff. The media has always been prevalent and around, but now, obviously we've turbocharged it. And I think there's something poetically hilarious about the fact that people trying to get a chatgpt to do something that they really think they can see it. And ChatGPT goes, I can only do average, mate. What do you want?
- [31:52]
A
If they can see that it's average, though, some clients don't recognize that and they think they're coming to you with gold. And that's where I'm like, oh, no, there's no harm in trying. I applaud a client, especially if they don't have big budget or they're a startup or wherever they're coming from and they're trying something and they're trying to get their ideas on paper to help you get to a point faster in design. That makes sense to me. But when they come to you thinking like, they, this is it. This is the idea. This is the whole idea. It's right here. Just copy this. That's where I'm like, peace out.
- [32:26]
B
I mean, I think it comes to education because I've been talking to people recently about the fact, like, how designers, once upon a time would go up on a stage in front of a couple of thousand people and they would put a slide on the screen that says, I don't know what I'm doing. And everyone will be clapping like, oh, well done, mate. This is really good, because what you're doing looks good. But the person will say, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm thinking, that makes sense. Until you realize we would look a bit like mugs if you say, I don't know what I'm doing. But we'll see what happens. So then you realize you need to know a little bit more because obviously there is a growth, there's movement in your career, and you need to know what you're doing till you get to the point where you realize maybe I know too much and it would be nice to try something different. Actually get to the position where you get back into that bit of unknown and the learning phase again. So twisting that concept onto people who don't know what they're doing and they will never think that they need to know a bit more about the process. We've definitely democratized the tools and give them access to everyone. We're not necessarily, I think moving the needle of the creativity per se to the level where we'll be okay. Yes, this is incredible. We've definitely covered a lot of basis for the humanity to be more creative because we find ourselves most of the time just talking about the fact that the tool exists. Is it good enough? It potentially will never be. There's definitely. There's technical ability to upscaling and to do something with already existing idea. You can feed stuff into AI that will do something good with it. But the general usage, I think we just. What we've got is basically a word art and clipart on steroids, right?
- [33:58]
A
Pretty much. But I don't know. I think I disagree a little bit with some of the stuff you were saying in there of. There's an illusion with clients that we are the experts, we know everything. And yes, it's not fully an illusion. Like we do know what we're doing. But I also think nobody knows what they're doing. I truly believe if a designer goes up on stage and says I don't know what I'm doing, I feel like the audience is still going to sit there nodding desk because no matter what level you are, nobody knows what the fuck they're doing right now. Everybody's exploring and experimenting with AI and. But do they actually know what they're doing? Nobody knows what they're doing. Then you look at legalities after and copyright laws and these legal lawsuits that are going to come for these big agencies because we don't know what we're doing. We're trying new things and that's part of it. And experimenting and pushing the needle. But nobody knows what they're doing. That's my growth mindset. Nobody knows what they're doing.
- [34:46]
B
I like it. I'm here to be disagreed with because we're working out as we speak about it. Because yes, you can know a little bit. And then you realize there's still so much more to know anyway. Even if you claim, oh, I know what I'm doing, of course you don't know. Unlike what you said, nobody knows what they're doing. Honestly, all you have to do is just to look at the world of politics and everywhere else, and it's astounding how hapless some of the stuff is. This is incredible. Reminded me of an Instagram account of a guy who was pretending to be an honest builder. Literally like a trading. And he would, he would basically be saying everything that was true. Oh, I just need more money because I just chop through your pipes and I don't know, I don't know the pipes were there. So I need money to turn you down in money for the flooring. But actually I'm going to fix your pipe because I made a mistake there and doing this. And all of his reels were just that. And it was hilarious because imagine if you were in the studio, what are you guys doing? Where do I start? We tried to do that. That didn't work. So we were trying to do this, we tried to do that. But could there be a comfort in not knowing? Because sometimes the unknown can make us feel a little bit scared. So how do you balance knowing and not knowing?
- [35:55]
A
Yeah, I think it's being confident with what you do know. So there's certain givens that you know. And then being open enough to say, I don't know this yet, I'm going to try this. I don't know if it's going to work, but I'm going to try it out. And sometimes just going into things uncertain but with solid footing of what you do know is enough to try something new. I'm thinking about a situation recently where we were doing an event, so we were doing a conference for a client and we were providing creative services and they asked us for a lot of last minute asks. And I was coordinating this conference and the group of creatives and they had asked us for a live edit of the conference due in two hours. And had they asked the videographer or the editor, they would have absolutely said no. But they asked me, and I know enough about video to, to know what I was asking of the team. But I was still naive enough with the client to be like, you know what? This is a really great idea. I think we should do it. It's crazy, but let's do it. And when I approached the team, they were like, are you crazy? This is too much. And I said, I'm going to do everything to support you and make it happen. And in my head I was confident because I'm like, we could do it. But really, did I know if I could do it? Not totally, but we pulled it off. Because I think sometimes there's a strength in naivety.
- [37:25]
B
Absolutely, there's definitely strength in naivety. And I did. You said be confident with what you know. Because if you were to stand within the boundaries of what you know, you would never push yourself. And I wrote Daring Forever, a book about literally just how do you make that one step? Just looking from a point of neuroscience, how our bodies tell us something, how our fears and don't come from a brain down, but they actually, they are from our bodies, how we feel the ancestral fears that are still in us. Because we've been built for pursuit, not for pleasure. Whereas now what we're pursuing is a lot more pleasure than a pursuit. And it's more about how do we process this. So when you push yourself into. I don't want to sound like a former neuroscientist, but if you push yourself in actually creating new, new pathways, trying something new, imagine a meadow in your head and then you got a desired path that your brain is used to going, I'm coming from here to there. And this is a safe pathway to do something new. You need to literally make a crop circle style pathway into your brain material versus I'm trying to liken it to a meadow in a way to create something new. And it's easier to go on that, well driven path to go, we've done this million times, let's go back there. Whereas if you're going somewhere new, you, you get that physical sensation of trying something new because your body will be going like, okay, do we need to worry about stuff? Are we in danger? What's happening here? Are we having fun or are we not? And this me noodling on about naivety, how amazing is it to be confident with just the basic ideas going, maybe this could work, but maybe not. But I think from a history of my business and many that I know, especially happening in 2000s and 2010s and 2020s is the most amazing things happened because people had absolutely no idea what to do and how to do it. And then they got started.
- [39:07]
A
Yeah, exactly. You have to figure it out. When you say yes to something, all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, now what am I doing? How am I doing this? And for me, I find that's something I've learned in the last year, which is it's fun to be in this business for 16 years and be learning new things. That's what keeps me excited about it and learning new things about myself too. This is something I'm actually good at, which I didn't know I was good at is finding solutions, not just design solutions that I've been doing a long time. But I didn't know that real world life situations where I could facilitate things in a way that I didn't know I could before. To see those skills transfer for me was a really exciting new thing, that it's part terrifying, part exciting. And I think that's where every few months I want to find myself at least on the edge of one situation where I'm half terrified, but it's also excitement because if you're not doing that, then that's where you're stagnating and you're just on the same path over and over again. And I'm very comfortable in that path and I could stay there forever, but it's not good for me.
- [40:10]
B
Half terrified, half excited. That's just the definition of life, isn't it? But thinking about what you said about your life, Edit. It goes back to your previous answer when you said, I'm trying to do the most with the least. And I think it goes back to our generation or some people of our persuasion, which is, I'm going to work it out. We're scrappy, scrappy, scrappy, trying to make things happen. You've got your new talk that you are debuting soon and I want to know what are you bringing to the stage that people need to hear from you?
- [40:42]
A
The title of my new talk is the Shift to Reconnecting with what Matters. And in this time that we're living in, with so much tech advancements and AI, it's about being designers that can still bring an element of humanity into our work and using our skills and what soft skills we really need to develop and leverage to keep being relevant in this industry and continue being creative.
- [41:07]
B
So this is really interesting because I feel like we've kind of filled the conversation about your talk with the little bits of here and there, which I think they're leading into your talk title, Shift to Human. Because how do you see the importance of soft skills? And how would you say that people can actually work on those and identify what they need and work on it?
- [41:28]
A
Yeah. I don't even think you need to be in person to develop soft skills. So even just building trust with people, communicating with them, you can be doing that through every touchpoint, email, telephone. I know I feel like a dinosaur sometimes when I pick up the phone and call people because everybody's into texting and emailing, but it goes a long way to speak on the phone, get comfortable with that, talk to a person, because you can hear if you're in person, amazing. It's easier. But when you're on the phone with somebody, you can really hear their voice. You can hear if it's shaky, you can hear what's going on. And when you see them, you can see their facial expressions and their body language. And so much of what we say, 90% of it is body language. So even if their entire body is closed off to you and saying no, this idea is not going to pass. So for me, I love whenever I can get in front of a client or speak on the phone with somebody, whether it's a client or a teammate or a supplier. And that's how you build relationships. And I think relationship building is a massive part of what we do or what you do in any industry. And those skills are what will carry over. So I think it's really important, even though we sit behind a computer all day, to develop relationship building skills. And that helps build trust and leads to so many opportunities.
- [42:43]
B
That's really interesting that you said that you don't necessarily need to be around other people to build your soft skill toolkit, right?
- [42:50]
A
No. So during the pandemic, that was something that I realized because I was so used to going to networking events and all of a sudden that was cut off. No more client in person meetings. So I still wanted to really maintain those relationships that I had been cultivating for so long and to keep growing as a person and as a designer. So I made it a point. Every day I called three people and I did this for a year. I would call three people and touch base with them, whether I'd worked with them once, whether they just reached out one time and the work never went through, just to say, hey, how are you doing? How's the pandemic was a huge talking point. It's very easy for somebody to have something to talk about because we were all going through this shitstorm together. So how are you navigating? How are you navigating this? What's going on in your world? And I would have people breaking down in tears on the phone and telling me about their lives. And usually we didn't talk about business at all. But a lot of those relationships that I worked on during that time are people that I still work with now. And it changed the type of relationships that I have with clients and suppliers where there's a huge trust. In that situation. I was mentioning before where we were looking to do creative services and pivot and they looked at me like Are you crazy? And I said, I looked at them and I said, I know you can do this. And they trusted me because we had built that relationship up and that was leveraging the soft skills that I had developed.
- [44:08]
B
You're right about a pandemic, sort of changing quite a few things because I think things became a bit more looser in the way of you don't have to come across too professional or pretend to be professional because what we do that needs to somehow align with the world of business. Of course, like there's a lot of other tick boxes that we need to do, but it was a great time to actually. That's a stupid thing to say. The pandemic was a great time.
- [44:31]
A
Some people, it was, they made bread and jewelry and.
- [44:34]
B
Yeah, but it was a time when we can recalibrate what it means to be human at work. Because once upon a time before pandemic, you couldn't really have kids on your, on your zoom call causing riot in pandemic. Go on, everyone chip in. And afterwards is, yeah, this is my children making noise. Because that's how we work. And I think the soft skills, key behavioral attributes of curiosity, resilience, empathy, or even actually lowering our ego did play out, did play the part because we realized how equal we are. After all, in the face of a virus.
- [45:06]
A
Definitely levels the playing field. Nobody's immune, pun intended.
- [45:09]
B
Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. So when it comes to those attributes, for example, like curiosity, resilience and empathy, how do you work with your team? I mean, talk about, we are shifting back to human. How do you put those in place? Because I know obviously you are very good at keeping your client relationships and talking and obviously being a very good leader, but how do you trickle it down into your ecosystem to make sure that everyone feels seen, heard and enabled? Well, to do that.
- [45:35]
A
Yeah, I think those are the exact same skills. So the same way that I'm checking in with clients, I was checking in with my team constantly and still am. So whether they're physically in the studio or they're working remotely, it's very important to me to. Everybody's entitled to their privacy. I'm not saying to pry into their business, but I try and create a safe landing space that if it's a team member or supplier, a client that has something to say or something going on, we're all people with other things going on outside of just your regular day to day work life and those things that are going on around us naturally influence. No matter how much you try to compartmentalize your Personal life and your work life and all those things, they bleed together so often. I'm going to be a lot more patient, let's say with a designer who's going through something personally if they share it, than if all of a sudden they're just making a ton of mistakes that they know better. So I think it's important to check in with your team and know what's really going on with them personally. Obviously, again, if they're comfortable to share so that you can be more empathetic, you can be a better leader, you can support them better. Because sometimes the support they need, it can be something that's so minor from you where you can say, you know what? I know you have an appointment this afternoon. It's quiet. We don't have anything due today. Just take the day off, deal with what you need to deal with. That goes a really long way with people where all of a sudden that stress of oh, I'm not going to be fired for not doing a good job, that breathing room is something that I and Grace is I think something that we should be extending all people that we're working with, clients or especially your team.
- [47:07]
B
When you started talking about shifting back to human, I think you're really now nailed the whole idea of what it's like to be in the leadership. When you've got human leadership. There was a reason why you about a human centric. What do you mean with that? Because this comes from a place of growth, care and experience. Because what you describe in I'm sensing that your studio works well. You don't have to worry too much about work, you don't have too much worry about margins. And that's where the magic happens. As you said, we need to make sure we don't drown. And you keep in your ship afloat to think that it comes with time. Because we want so many things to go well and we want to do them well. And we want everything poetically, okay. I want all the clients, all the work, all the money, all the time, all the resources, all the budgets, right. And then you realize that it's impossible task to balance because you need the cognitive space and the experience how to handle it, how to digest it and metabolize it. So I'm really feeling the way how we talk about shifting to human because that gives you that view that the creativity was always will be inherently human. And whatever the tools on execution is, it's almost the 15% of the process rather than 95 or some people might
- [48:27]
A
be thinking the way you make Things is really important, what your philosophy is. And for me, that is about people. And I always assume that things are going to go wrong. I try and be optimistic. In a perfect world, everything goes right. But what is my plan B? What is my plan C? How am I going to adjust when things don't go well? And I think when you work in a way that prioritizes people, they have your back. I want to see anybody that I'm working with as a creative be at their best. So that's a question that I'm always asking, is what type of work do you want to do? What lights you up both inside and outside of the office? What matters to you? What do you care about? Because that's what is important. I think ultimately, as a leader, is to understand what makes people tick and how to work with them in the best that they feel their best, too.
- [49:15]
B
It comes from a place of care, experience, because to see others, you need to stop seeing yourself first and you put your focus on the others.
- [49:23]
A
Yeah. And honestly, I think that also comes from a place of being on the other side. I have been treated horribly in some agencies and places where I've seen and known what that feels like, to not feel seen as a person, to not feel heard, to not feel valued or respected, and then to be on the opposite side where I've worked in some amazing places, and to see the difference of how people show up in those two situations is massive. And you're talking, same pay, same work, same everything. So when you're comparing apples to apples like that, and you see what a difference it means to just be normal, be human with the people that you work with, it changes everything.
- [50:04]
B
So let's finish on a more positive note. What gets you excited about future? What is on Elana's view that, okay, this is the next step, this is the next destination.
- [50:12]
A
I think for me as a creative, I'm slowly entering some new spaces. And for me, that felt exciting and optimistic. And I really don't know what the creative future holds for the industry. When people ask, what is the future of design? I have no idea. And that's, again, the precipice of terrifying and exciting. So I don't know what the future holds, but I know that whatever it's going to be, I'm going to show up with all the soft skills that I've learned over the years and bring all of that with me. So whatever it is and whatever I need to do, I will pivot and adjust, and I know I'll be fine. And I hope everybody else is going to be fine, too, because we're not starting everything fresh again. You're still coming with who you are. And I think working on who you are is the most important part, not just necessarily what is your best piece of work out there? I think you need to show up as your best version of yourself. And then the work and everything, whatever that looks like in the future will come.
- [51:07]
B
I can't really take this any further because I think you've perfectly summarized this conversation. Shivin up as your best self. Sound like radical accountability, Knowing what you want, how much you want it, what it takes to get there. Right.
- [51:19]
A
Yeah, I love that. Radical accountability.
- [51:22]
B
Yeah. I think this is something that I've realized that when you were talking about the both sides of a good deal and a bad deal, within the same pain and the same work, we got options to choose what reality we want to have, what we want to be in. And we don't always know it right at the beginning, but we can actually decide what our future should be and then see what part we play in it. Right. Because sometimes it's easy, as I've been saying on stages from my talks, it's easy to blame everything and everyone when something doesn't go well. But when you realize it all starts with you, you go, okay, all right. What could I have done differently? Because it's easy to think that at the early stage of our career when it's a very egocentric and for the right reason, if something doesn't go well, you hardly will ever blame yourself. You'll blame everything and everyone. But when you realize you've got some agency, that you've got some ways of understanding what all this happens, then you really shift to the space of radical accountability going, I could have done better, and I could have handled this better. I could have spoken. I could have stand up and said, this should be done this way. Because ultimately is the collective voices that really change the narrative. Because being a sort of solo architect of everything is tiring and also limiting.
- [52:36]
A
Yeah. And building up that resilience is huge. Every time you. You get a no or you get hammered down by something, I feel like how you pivot and how you reflect on that will build you up better for the next time around. I feel like that's important to just keep. No matter what's going on or just to keep building that resilience and to keep being a good human.
- [52:56]
B
Fantastic stuff. Alana, thank you very much for coming back. It was great to talk to you. I'm sure I've taken you to places you didn't expect, but that's the nature of daring creativity. So thanks for being here.
- [53:07]
A
Super fun. Thank you so much for having me back. I loved it.
- [53:09]
B
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinej. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle including including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.