Episode Summary
Podcast: Daring Creativity. Daring Forever.
Host: Radim Malinic
Episode Title: Dare to transform fear into permission – Katie Johnson & Ilana Griffo (Goodtype)
Date: September 1, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Radim Malinic sits down with Katie Johnson and Ilana Griffo, the duo behind Goodtype, for a rich, candid conversation delving into the unconventional journey that brought them together. From their different creative upbringings and initial career paths to collaboration, the episode is an honest look into partnership, the value of community over competition, daring to experiment in business, and the ongoing process of transforming creative fear into bold permission. Katie and Ilana share tangible stories about licensing, education, remote working, and their philosophy of letting curiosity, rather than profit-chasing, drive their creative practice.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. How Goodtype Came Together
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Not the Original Founders: Katie and Ilana clarify that Goodtype was started by Bode Robinson, who documented eye-catching signage on Instagram. Goodtype quickly grew into a major typographic inspiration hub ([03:59]).
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Their Entry: Ilana first connected with Katie after seeing her work on the Goodtype feed. They bonded over art licensing, collaborated on a course, and eventually took over Goodtype when Bode wanted to step away ([04:54], [06:23]).
"She had this amazing community of a million people that she didn't want it to just die and crumble with her leaving... It all felt very full circle." – Katie ([06:23]).
2. Creative Roots and Early Influences
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Katie Johnson: A latecomer to graphic design, initially set on a musician's path; mistook "typography" for "topography" in her first college course ([07:14]).
"I thought it was topography. So I showed up ready to map out some maps. I didn't know what was going on." – Katie ([07:14])
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Ilana Griffo: Grew up with creative parents—her mother worked in creative education, her father is an entrepreneur. Initially wanted to be an interior designer, then fell for graphic design after her first type class ([14:43]).
3. Intimidation and Gatekeeping in Typography
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Katie and Radim discuss how many in the type world can be intimidating, especially in academia or mid-career "gatekeeper" roles.
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They both agree that true leaders in typography are often welcoming and collaborative ([10:47], [13:37]).
"It's like the people that are in the middle... protecting their view of what typography should be. And then there’s people who are at the top and I think they get to the top because they're personable and friendly." – Katie ([13:37])
4. Partnership Dynamics: Complementary Yin and Yang
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Remote Collaboration: Katie (Austin, TX) and Ilana (Rochester, NY) explain that their business partnership was founded remotely and flourishes on complementary strengths—“yin and yang” ([20:31], [22:27]).
"Compatibility in a partnership would look like sameness and agreeing all the time... this one actually works better because we're such a yin and yang with our strengths and weaknesses." – Katie ([22:27])
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Task Delegation: Honest conversations and ongoing communication let them naturally delegate business tasks ([24:06]).
"Katie would say, hey, you were really good at this. And I would say, I really hate doing this... just that willingness to be honest with each other." – Ilana ([24:08])
5. Community Over Competition & Art Licensing
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How They Met: An example of transforming fear of competition into collaboration—when both wanted to teach about art licensing, they decided to merge forces rather than compete ([25:03], [25:26]).
"I let all those feelings pass through because I’m human… once I was less emotional… this is probably not the behavior you want to act out. You probably want to do something more aligned with what you say your values are. So that snapped me out of it." – Katie ([25:26])
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Licensing as a career and educational path—a major gap in artist education they sought to fill for others ([27:24]).
6. Creativity, Risk, and Building a Sustainable Business
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Both shared how creative backgrounds, personal risk tolerances, and values shape business decisions.
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Ilana grew up seeing entrepreneurship as accessible; Katie had to overcome risk aversion, strategically planning her transitions ([29:45], [34:08]).
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They stress following authentic passion rather than just profit ("not necessarily following the money is a more liberating choice" – [38:10]).
"The older I get, the less I’m willing to sprint towards a hill that I know when I get to the top of, I’m just gonna look around and be like, well, now what?" – Katie ([37:58])
7. The Power of Relationships in the Creative Industry
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Success as freelancers and educators has come not just from skill, but from cultivating genuine connections ([39:01], [40:24]).
"It's more important to have that than to have the best design skills in the world... I would crank the relationship skills for sure." – Katie ([40:24])
"Instagram is so surface level... there's misconceptions when you judge someone by their Internet presence. For sure. But we've been at this for a while." – Ilana ([41:59])
8. Experimentation & The Art of Asking Questions
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Their philosophy centers on curiosity, experimentation, and treating business decisions as reversible experiments rather than “make or break” ([44:58]).
"This year we've dubbed the year of experiments for ourselves… it's about approaching things with curiosity and seeing what happens and reporting back." – Katie ([44:58])
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Sharing the recent “LinkedIn experiment,” and planning for playful, data-driven work sprints ([47:24]).
9. Creative Education and Community Building
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The importance of actionable takeaways in Goodtype's annual virtual conference; aiming for accessibility, diversity of perspectives, and actionable insights rather than overwhelming inspiration ([51:49]–[55:20]).
"We really put stock in having actionable things that people know what to do next... the kind of general feeling that we have after conferences is overload, overly inspired, and then we don't do anything with it." – Katie ([53:02])
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Overcoming Intimidation in Type:
"It was very scary to include type in my early designs when I had so little background... I was terrified that I was gonna put something on the page then I was gonna show up in class... people were gonna be snickering under their breath, and I can't believe she used Eurostile." – Katie ([10:47]) -
On the Formation of Their Partnership:
"We really fill in the gaps that the other one has and hold up the other person's strengths and allow them to step into those. It's taken time to find out where those things were and to really get to know each other and go through a lot of projects and a lot of failures too." – Katie ([22:27]) -
On Handling Creative Jealousy:
"I had the opportunity to just be like, forget it and kind of throw in the towel... and I let all those feelings pass through because I’m human. And then I was able to... realize we could make something better." – Katie ([25:26]) -
On Sustainable Creativity:
"The older I get, the less I'm willing to sprint towards a hill that I know when I get to the top of, I'm just gonna look around and be like, well, now what?" – Katie ([37:58]) -
On Relationship-Building:
"Alana is really great at the relationship piece, which is arguably the most important piece of finding work... those are skills that aren't emphasized very much in typical graphic design education, but they have served us the best out of any skills." – Katie ([40:24]) -
On Experimenting and Letting Go of Outcomes:
"This year we've dubbed the year of experiments... we're not so invested in the outcome and so tied into it and emotionally invested. It's more about approaching it from like a scientific way." – Katie ([44:58])
Timestamps for Key Segments
- How Goodtype Was Founded & Their Entry: [03:59] – [07:06]
- Creative Beginnings & Misconceptions About Typography: [07:14] – [09:48]
- Gatekeeping in Type; Finding Permission Through Community: [10:47] – [13:37]
- Creative Backgrounds & Early Influence: [14:35] – [17:57]
- Remote Partnership & Building a Business Together: [20:29] – [24:33]
- Bonding Over Licensing & Shifting from Competition to Community: [24:44] – [27:24]
- Filling Gaps in Creative Business Education: [29:45] – [34:51]
- Balance Between Commission Work, Art for Licensing, and Education: [35:23] – [37:58]
- The Power of Relationships in Finding Work: [39:01] – [41:18]
- Strategy vs. Taking Action; Complementary Roles: [34:51] – [35:16]
- Experimentation Mindset in Practice: [44:58] – [50:23]
- Goodtype’s Virtual Conference: Purpose & Pragmatics: [51:49] – [56:18]
Episode Takeaways
- Daring creativity isn’t about chasing perfection, but showing up with doubts and letting curiosity guide the way.
- Building creative careers means focussing on authentic relationships, thoughtful experimentation, and shared values—not just technical skill or profit.
- Community over competition leads to unexpected opportunities and can transform creative fears into growth and permission.
- A successful partnership thrives on honesty, communication, and complementing each other's strengths and weaknesses—even (and especially) from a distance.
- Treating business decisions as experiments, not ultimatums, creates resilience and sustainable fulfillment.
- In creative education, actionable insights and accessible community matter more than portfolio polish or overwhelming ambition.