← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
On making of a multidisciplinary polyamorous designer - Chris Wilson
00:54:00
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- [00:01]
Radim Malinich
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- [00:51]
Chris Wilson
When I started at college and certainly the start part of Unique, I was doing a lot of stuff. I didn't have a computer at home like I would use the studio computers up at the university and everything we were doing was hand drawn sketches. It was like Letraset. I wasn't using computers to do these presentations. Then all of a sudden the computer comes along, there's all these software packages you need to learn. So it was just a bit developed and leaning into that and I think AI is pretty much the same thing. It's something that's coming in whether we like it or.
- [01:21]
Radim Malinich
Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radhy Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. So thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? My guest today runs an award winning one man creative studio in Glasgow, Scotland. He's a multidisciplinary designer with nearly two decades of experience partnering with local and international businesses from startups to established brands offering end to end full service approach including packaging, branding, visualization and everything in between. In our deeply personal conversation we talk about the traumatic experience of being a victim of a violent crime and how creative work became a crutch that ultimately led to burnout and hospitalization. He opens up about discovery and therapy later in life, managing client expectations by setting boundaries and his ongoing evolution as a designer, navigating new technologies and personal growth. It's my pleasure to introduce Chris Wilson from Stickmind Studio Hey Chris, how you doing?
- [03:13]
Chris Wilson
Hi. I'm doing fine, thanks.
- [03:14]
Radim Malinich
For those who might not have heard of Stickman or Chris Wilson, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:19]
Chris Wilson
So, yeah, I'm Chris Wilson. I run a one man creative studio based in Glasgow, Scotland. The business is called Stickman. I would say I'm probably a generalist, but I don't really like the word. I jokingly describe myself as a polyamorous designer. Really because I'm passionate about kind of all things creative. I'm not really tied to a single discipline. Instead I like to just flock away a number of different creative approaches. So if I had to tie it down, I'd say branding, packaging and visualization seem to be the kind of main services I offer. But I offer a ton of services in between that as well. There's not really much that I don't do.
- [03:54]
Radim Malinich
How did you end up being a one man agency calling yourself generalist or polyamorous designer? Because I'm sensing a little tinge of hesitation. I call myself this, I don't want to call myself that, but. But after all, it's our work that defines us. Or is it not?
- [04:11]
Chris Wilson
Yeah, definitely. I think the portfolio suggests that, like if you look through my current folio as a mixture of different services and project types, but I think I'm nine years into it now, doing it for myself and there's been that kind of journey of like, how do I describe myself, what do I want it to be? So there's that initial. I think what most people do is I call the agency Stackman. But I would say we instead of I or me. And I would be really focused around try to describe it as myself. I would try and make it seem as if it was bigger than it is, but it started to feel a wee bit disingenuous and it was difficult as well for me get across my tone of voice when I felt like I was speaking as if it was more than just me. So I think I kind of leaned in it recently of being like, you know what is only me? I do all these services. That's what it is. And then when you go on and you look at a lot of the agency sites or other micro agencies or one man bands like me, it's all the same stuff that they talk about. So I thought what's a way of describing myself that's a wee bit different from the kind of usual way of doing it? And that's how the kind of polyamorous part of it, it was more of a kind of jokey way of describing multidisciplinary designer rather than. It sounds quite clinical as a term, so I figured it's a nicer way of describing it. Obviously, the poly bets are. But, like, polymaths are doing more than one thing. And then the amorous part, I've been passionate, so that was really how it came about. Just trying to find that wee thing that was different for me to describe myself. And then obviously the name Stickman came about because I'm tall and skinny and it's the first thing that people draw, like, creatively. Whether you're a kid or right through adulthood, everyone knows what a stickman is. So thought I was a nice way of describing who I was.
- [05:46]
Radim Malinich
It felt disingenuous to call yourself we, but you do work with other people, right?
- [05:52]
Chris Wilson
I do think I'd say the majority of the time when I'm working on projects as me that carries out all the work and it's me that works direct with the client. When I come up against projects where it might require something that I'm not too sure of, then I'll reach out to other people that kind of specialize in that. But it's not often that happens. Like, I'd say I would turn my hand to it if they asked, look, could you. So, for example, I'm Learning Blender, the 3D package, just now. So, like, if somebody said to me, can you do 3D modeling? So I would take that job on, but I can't animate it. So I work with a guy, Dan, who does the kind of animation side. So I do bring people in now and again. But what had happened? Initially, I had a studio space I was renting from a friend, Martin, who was a photographer. And I had set it up to say we on the website. And it was like, as if it was more than one person. And a client came along to the studio and was like, oh, I'd love to meet the team. And it was like that realization of, I'm the team, that only is me. So it felt as if I'd already lost our trust in the sense that they'd built up this picture. Because I was saying we and I was talking about the third person that it was bigger than it was. And it was actually quite difficult for me as well. When I was trying to write things or talk from the brand's point of view, I kept tripping myself up because I was like, we and I. And it just felt really messy. Whereas I thought leaning. And he just said, well, look, it is only me. And it Just felt more honest and actually more authentic and easier for me to actually talk about myself rather than feeling like I'm trying to make it sound bigger than it was.
- [07:21]
Radim Malinich
The answer, sort of the constant dissonance and eternal dissonance of a designer. Because sometimes people search for freelance designer, but, you know, necessarily freelance designer, you run a creative output studio, or output, whatever you call it, business. But it's almost like, how do we fit the perception of people or expectations of people, like, what they're looking for? Because from experience, people were looking for a freelance designer that was literally their keywords. And then they start and they come to you and like, so how big is your team? Like, I'm pretty sure you search for a freelance designer, right? They're like, yeah, so what makes you think I've got a team? And yeah, so hats off to you for saying it feels disingenuous because a lot of people will happily pretend that they have 10 people, they'll happily pretend they're bigger than they're and then you can make it happen. But I think with the rise of understanding of micro agencies, I think it's a bit easier to say, this is me and I am not just a logo designer, I'm not just a banner designer. Because I think for some, lots of people, like from experience, again, they're looking for the equivalent of a plumber. Like, they've got a leak, they want that person to come and fix it and they go, do you also do electrics and any plant, any building work? Can you fix my roof? I think we are changing, evolving as creatives, but the way we are understood by the world outside sometimes hasn't caught up. And of course we don't have an idea of what are some other people doing. The job titles that some people have didn't exist 10 years ago, not even five years ago. So it's like, how do we get the right perception? So, yeah, hats off to you because, yeah, there's always people that you can use, there's always things you can do. And sometimes people prefer to work with a person knowing that's just that person. But it might be like, oh, why am I paying you all of this money? Because it's only you. And you're like, okay, do I need to justify my time? Do I need to justify my knowledge?
- [09:15]
Chris Wilson
No, I think I've seen a big shift certainly over the last nine years of doing it full time. Where initially I had that apprehension of it is only me. And I'm offering a list of all these different services and like you said, there are some things people are used to being. Well, if I need a specialist, if it's web, I'll go to a web designer. If I need a logo, I'll go to a logo designer. But I think there's something to be said where a lot of people, maybe if they're starting out or they've got a business, they're a startup, they'd much rather work with somebody through the entire journey. So if I come in at a point where they've got an idea or they've got a product, but they don't necessarily know how to name that product, how to brand it up, how it has to exist within that digital space, or what a campaign could look like, other visuals or the photography. Whereas if I can sit with them and say, look, I can do all that for you, it's like it's much more powerful to have a person working on it from the start to the end rather than some, okay, we've got to this stage, let's bring in this re, explain what the brand is and what the tone of voice should be and stuff. Because I went through that process with them at the beginning and building that foundation. So no one kind of knows the brand better than myself and the client at that point. So it makes sense to then say, what are these next services that you're looking for? How can I be involved in that? And for a lot of startups that they do want almost to use me as an external team, they maybe don't have the resource to have somebody full time as a member of staff, but they can work with me as if I was their team. So I think that's where it kind of works. And I've seen a massive change in the acceptance of that also with the larger businesses. So it used to be we in the hope that the perception would seem bigger. So the big names and the big clients would then say, oh, it's a we, so we'll go with them because they'll be more reliable. But I've seen a change where they're now accepting of the smaller one man, two man agencies. It's definitely changing. So yeah, I've seen a difference in the perception of that. And also I think a reason why I'm leaning into the eye aspect of it more now is that I have no intention of growing stickman. I don't want to have staff. That was never my intention. Like I always wanted it to be me having that business. I think I've thought about it and can I have depths in and out. Especially now as I'm getting older, a bit of a designer saw in the industry. So for me, knowing I can't maybe do all long hours the way that I used to, the fact that technology's changes so quickly, Try to keep up to date with that. Yeah, it's the I things I'm leaning into that more.
- [11:38]
Radim Malinich
I want to talk about time. I want to talk about your no grow situation. How does it work in your situation where you do most of your work and you planning to keep it in the same? Do you ever feel like there is a pressure as a result of it, that you've got a bit too much to do?
- [11:57]
Chris Wilson
Oh, definitely. And I've had myself in situations where it's put me in the hospital just through that, just through overwork. So it was not last October, but the October before. I had taken on far too much work. So I had three projects all running at the same time. I had blinkers on. So, like, for me, it was just head down, get the work done. It was more important than most things. And what that does is like, my health was suffering, so I wasn't eating meals at the right times. I was going home and reheating food. I was working late nights, not getting to see my kid or my wife. Like, it was affecting my relationships. And it came ahead one day where I was working away in the studio and I could start to feel, like, pain in my chest. Then I figured, look, I've not been eating correctly. Maybe it's just because I've not been eating or feeling sickly or whatever. So I never put it down eating. And I have Stu, who's one of the guys that takes a desk in my studio. He said, look, I think if you're feeling that way, just maybe call it a day and why don't you step away from the screen for a bit? So he says, look, let's. In truth Scottish fashion, let's go for a pint. So we went for a pint and like, medicinal purposes. So we went for a pint at a bar just along the road. And I was halfway through the paint. I said, like, I really. There's something. All right, I don't feel. So I started walking to the station. And then I just felt like I couldn't breathe. It was like a really bad stitch. Like, as if this pain every time I was inhaling. So I phoned my wife. She came and got me. We went to the hospital. They went and took blood pressure, said to me, look, we're doing. Gonna do a chest X ray. So they came back. So I was in right through the night and into the morning. And they said, look, the results for the X ray have shown there's a darkening in one of your lungs. So basically what I had done was I'd ended up. I had really bad chest infection and I had just tried to power through it. I just, instead of recovering and let myself sit and get better or medicate, I just kept working and working and working to the point where this pain was just unbearable. So they gave me medication, sent me home and said, look, you need to rest. You're burnt out. I lost two stone in weight, and for a skinny guy, that made obviously holding up the stick my name. But I think I just, I was so consumed by the work and people are telling me, people were saying, look, you're working too much. These are long hours. Like you're working weekends. But when you're in it, I couldn't see it. Like, it was just I was working through it. So I left for two days, like, basically went to sleep, and that was me. Two full days. I took the medication, started getting back to normal, and then it was almost like a wake up call of, this is too much. There is a line. I think before it was just like, I'll take it on, I'll manage it. It's like, no. This is my body's way of saying, enough's enough.
- [14:18]
Radim Malinich
It's a crazy story, but I love the fact that you said, let's go for a pint. Medicinal purposes. Yeah, I can see the logic in it. This is what I say. But this is the thing. It's so easy taking them too much work and being in that cycle, you just don't see it. You get snowblind, you go, oh, I need to do this. Because I would like to think that when you took on all of that work, you didn't have your enough defined. You didn't know where to stop, how to do it. Because in Mindful Creative, it was the first time when I was writing a book, I realized what my enough is. I came to actual realization what it is. Because you only find out where your enough should be when you hit the rock bottom. Like when you've gone past the enough and you just burn through all the stop signs, all the red lights, and you're like, oh, there is just a cliff. And that is the end. Like, literally, you find out. So if I could ask, what have you learned from this experience?
- [15:17]
Chris Wilson
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [15:19]
Radim Malinich
If you're enjoying this podcast and would like more support and information on your creative journey. You can pick up one of my books to help you do just that. My titles cover branding, graphic design, illustration all the way to career business advice with ideas how to navigate the highs and lows of the creative process. You can pick up signed paperbacks and no extra cost from my store@nobmberuniverse.co.uk and we are shipping worldwide. Use code PODCAST for extra 10% of your order and you can find the links in the show Notes Any day should be a new book day.
- [16:03]
Chris Wilson
I would love to say oh I've turned it all around and I know the answer that's fair to I certainly don't what I immediately done though once I'd finished up those obviously I'd finished those projects up to the time recovered. In the January I sent out an email to all my clients and every one of my client listener just said look I'm dropping to a full day week. I'm only available between these hours and can you please do all correspondence through email so no more text and WhatsApp. And it just felt like they had 24 hour access to me which was the helping in terms of me shutting off. So I put that in place and then I think it was a matter of looking at what you were saying there about the year enough. It was like what is that version for me? So it was like as a financial thing, once I get to a certain point of the year have I made enough that covers my bills and I'm financially stable and I'm happy to stop at that. And then it was like right. I think it was mainly looking at the project management side and thinking I was looking at it probably foolishly for the perspective of okay I've got five days, there's eight hours in a day, that's how much capacity I've got. But in reality it doesn't work like that. Half your days taken up with emails and admin. And so I think it was try to find a better balance for that which throughout last year. So I actually took on a lot less projects last year, probably about half the amount. But there were longer term projects which meant I was able to plan them. So it was like rather than it so one of the projects was almost like a 10 month project where I had gaps in between where we're finishing one part, there was a gap that was working on something else and then diving back in rather than try to take on. I think at one point there was like five projects running at the same time in that initial year which is just for one person. It's too much. And my biggest fear is always that the work will begin to suffer because when you can't put enough attention on one thing at any one time, you start to see the cracks in each of them and the only thing you can do is work longer on them. And then by doing that, you're just back to just running on this treadmill of like sometimes 14, 15 hour days and then working weekends, which is just humans aren't able for it.
- [18:06]
Radim Malinich
I'm going to make you feel a bit better about yourself because you talk about five projects at once. When I got to find out my enough, I had 19 projects at the same time. 19. There were not obviously long term projects. There were smaller projects. And this is the long time ago. But it's so easy to fall into this, especially when you don't know things that make you say yes. You think you say yes to things because you're going to learn from them, you're going to earn from them. Say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because deep under, down under, deep under which it was the right way to say it, I was longing for acceptance. There was like, oh, people want me, people want me. This is good. You might have your own. Like a person could have their own reasons why they say yes to things because it pushes them away from their suffering or their destruction. You keep in that wolf behind the door because you're keeping yourself busy in your sort of padded world. And when you actually start thinking, I never really knew what my enough was. You never really knew what is the right turnover because I hate to repeat it, but not many people have the projection sheet going, oh, I need to earn this much. You kind of like, you have a sort of foggy idea. Like, okay, maybe it's, let's say 150k a year, let's do that and we'll be okay. Obviously, if you go staff and bigger outlays and overheads, you might have a bit more of an idea what you need to do. But I still have spoken to a studio owner quite a while ago and he was like, yeah, I only just realized we need to make 140k a month just to break even. And you're like, I like the sentence when you say, I've only just realized. It's like business and creativity don't always mix in the right way. There's a reason why there's CFOs who are not creative people. But where I'm heading with this, I like what you've changed. Like, you Said, I'm only available four days a week because you don't want people to have 24 access to yourself. But did you ever feel like, oh shit, these people might step away and find somebody else because I am cutting off the thing that's making me ill. That obviously does their benefit because obviously they get access to you and they are slightly more unregulated. Or did you feel like, okay, this is how I do business. If they don't accept it, they have to walk.
- [20:24]
Chris Wilson
Yeah. There was definitely a part of me thinking I can't continue like that so I have to change it for myself and for the family. So it was like, I have to do it. Surprisingly, all of them are really accepting of it because I think they're probably the same boat as well. Like they've got jobs, they've got businesses, they've got families. I think they were really understanding of, look, we get it, no problem. It didn't seem like a bad thing. I think for me the decision had to be made for my own health and for my own sanity. But surprisingly they were fine with. And I see bonus, I don't think any of the clients really care when you get it done or if they've got a deadline they need it for then and that's different. But see, whether you've done it, I don't know, on a Sunday or an afternoon or you do it on a Monday, I don't think they really care. All the access point. A lot of them are willing to be like, drop me a mail and say are you around the Wednesday for a quick call or whatever. So like it didn't really affect the day to day. I think it was more just it was a good thing for me to establish it and be like, you know what, I needed that wake up call to realize that the job that we do, I think we're talking there a wee bit about the acceptance thing and I still suffer from it. Like I'm predominantly self taught and all of the stuff that I do, I study industrial design at university or what it was called then, product design, but it's been that phrase has been stolen by the digital community. But it was industrial designs. Like all of the stuff that I know now, the branding aspect of it, the visualization stuff, I've taught myself all of that. So there was always that worry of I need acceptance, I need clients to be like, oh that's great work or my peers to be like, that's great work. And I was putting so much emphasis on that to the point where again that was another reason why I felt the need to do it. It was almost like I need to prove myself to the industry, prove myself to these clients, especially when I'd worked as design director at one of the agencies. And when you're in there and you're under their umbrella and then you come out and you're on your own, you feel like you're back at square one, kinda. Even though at that point I'd been in the industry 10 years, it took me 10 years before I stepped out my own. So there is that initial. Oh, shit. It's like my name above the door now. Like, I can't talk about these big brands that I've worked with because they weren't my client. So a big part of that was like, I need to prove that I can do this, prove that it's going to work. So there was a huge pressure on it. And like most people, you go through a lot of personal traumas and things that happen in your life. Like, my dad has suddenly passed away. He died of a heart attack unexpectedly. And that threw myself into work rather than probably dealing with that emotionally. So there's tons of things that happen where work becomes that crutch almost. It's like you can escape to there. You feel good when you're doing the projects and things like that. I think I've done that quite a lot. Talking about traumatic stuff. And I don't know if you need to put like a small disclaimer to your listeners, but you talk about something that happened. When I was at university, I just finished a pitch, basically, we would pitch our ideas to the lecturers and go through all of that. And we were in late, it was about half seven at night. Finishing up the pitches. I left with two of my other students. We were walking down. So Glasgow Caledonian University, you need to walk through like a bus station to get down onto the main Buchanan street, which is the kind of main road that runs down the middle of the town. And Ned guy, I think this guy was a chav or a Ned, was walking past us and shouting things and we never thought anything over. He walked past us. So we started walking down McCannish Street. Like I say it's half seven at night, so the streets ran with people shopping, things like that. And then next thing I know, I get hit in the back of the head with a brick and I fell forward and I just seen white. I completely just seen white. That was the kind of first reaction. And then I fell forward and I had a duffel jacket on with the hood and my messenger bag, like, across me. And then next thing I know, my hood's getting pulled down and I'm getting punched in the face. But I never realized at that point the guy had a knife. So he cut me down through my face here, down. My beard kind of covers it. Now I've got scarring here above my eye, and I've got scars on my hands through where I was grabbing the knife. So I managed to wrestle free the two guys that were with me. One of them pulled the guy off me and broke me away. And there was like a Sainsbury's shop in the corner. So I ran in, just as you can imagine, dripping my blood. And I was like, I've been attacked. So they rushed me through to the security and through the back. They had this large mirror on the wall. And that is at the point when I'd seen that my face was open and, like, I was caught up quite badly. So I'm in shock at this point. They're trying to hold different bits onto my face and my hands and stuff to stop the bleeding, the back of my head and stuff like that. So it just turns out it was like a completely unprovoked attack. Just this guy had. Was going about with a knife. He'd stabbed someone on a bus as well. They got the guy, thankfully, and a few of the witnesses that were on the street had come forward and for the court case, and then he got jailed for it. So I. So, like, that was while I was at university. That was my first year at uni. And then it was that thing where it really knocked my confidence. Like, I felt I just didn't know where I was at with things. It was like, okay, I've now got scars on my face. My accent quite nerdy, the way I speak, like, my Glaswegian accent, and the fact I was going bald. So at that point, I'd shaved my head. So I was thinking that I've got a shaved head, scarred face. So I'm thinking at this point, right, I'm getting out into the world, effectively, after this university course, and trying to present myself as something. And prior to that, if I seen someone with scars on their face, the first thing you think is, oh, they're dodgy or they're dangerous or they've done something to deserve that. So I had this in my head. So, like, whenever I was speaking to people, I felt like I had to explain it, like, so that they didn't think that I was deserving of it or that I'd Done something. So really not my confidence, like the attack side of things, like my dad's. All these things that kind of happened to you. I was just throwing myself into work. Work was like my therapy to an extent, but all I was really doing was putting it aside rather than dealing with it. And I'd say therapy is probably like, in the last maybe three to five years, I've been like, going to therapy and things like that now and again, like dipping in and out when I feel that I need it. So I went off on a bit of tangent there. Sorry.
- [26:07]
Radim Malinich
No, no, no, no. It's a great point to talk about because there is trauma and then there's being a victim of a crime. I never noticed your scars and it's.
- [26:17]
Chris Wilson
Probably my age, the crow's feet. I'm getting older now, so the scar kind of blends in.
- [26:22]
Radim Malinich
But what you said about the confidence was that you thought because of your glass region accent, because obviously that's your identity, because obviously you might be losing hair and you've got scars in your head. But that's the narrative you made in your head. Obviously you thinking what other people might be thinking about you. Because you mentioned so many amazing things in this answer. Like about the self acceptance for work and kind of keeping that wolf at door, like, not dealing with the trauma. Because I can't even imagine what happened when you got stitched up and you broke back up in the world because did you get any professional help? Did someone understood your trauma? Did somebody say, hey, this is going to have a massive knockback on your confidence. There are tools to help you to do this? Or did you just let back out and go, off you go?
- [27:06]
Chris Wilson
No, they were. They did actually offer. There was like, as part of that procedural, like they send somebody out to speak to you afterwards and they offer different therapies and counseling sessions and things like that. But me being like the adamant to get back to uni and finish my course and stuff like that, I just never took them up on it. I just thought, I need to be strong and do this and just get back to uni. It was difficult because I had to walk past that area every day to get to uni. So it was kind of like that was most difficult thing. I think once I'd overcame that, it was fine and I was back kind of doing it. But it was weird as well. It had cut an effect because at that point I was in a band like I was the lead singer in a pop punk band. And I never went on stage. And I haven't done anything to do with a band since then. So I feel like I lost out quite a bit with that because we were one of the best. We weren't the worst. We played a fair few decent gigs.
- [27:56]
Radim Malinich
Did you regret it? Did you never go back on a stage?
- [27:58]
Chris Wilson
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it's one of these things now. I'm kind of like that old roadie telling the story. I used to be in a band sort of thing. But definitely it was a nice creative outlet for me because I used to write the songs. That was almost like kind of like a therapy as well, like an outlet.
- [28:15]
Radim Malinich
I think there's something about being on the stage because I was in the band for a few years, in different bands for a few years. And that feeling when you're on the stage and it's working again, acceptance. It's physical. You know, when you write a song with your mates and you don't hate each other yet, and it's working. You've got a ref and you go to the groove and like, okay, this is working. Then you put it on the stage. People like it. This is going good. I remember, like, for years and years and years, I had that physical sort of flashback. I'm like, I miss it. I miss the feeling. I don't miss anything around. It mentioned that you said no to therapy back then. And I mean, I can understand that you're early, late teenage, early 20s. You're like, what therapy? Why have. You know, I can walk it off. You've mentioned that you have done therapy for the last few years. What was that nudge? When did you realize, actually, you know what? I might feel a little bit better if I do this.
- [29:11]
Chris Wilson
I think it was a number of probably just things at home as well, I think. See, with the stresses of the job, I was taking work home with me. I was taking those stresses home with me. So I wasn't even really nice to be around. I was stressed all the time. I was getting really agitated. I was angry a lot. So it was more kind of realizing the people around me were saying, like, you're dictator around. Sort. Sort this out. And I knew that I had a lot of things that were maybe unresolved. Just like I say, and it's so strange. I never really used to talk about the Ms. Traumas, like the thing that happened at D or my dad. And it was always just, oh, it's just things that's happened just go on. But I think that was an opener. Like when I first went to therapy and spoke to them about that and they said, well, actually stuff to happen, like, we should talk about that. And not feeling within myself that I was coping very well. So it was like, how do we, how do I stop using work as that crutch and actually work on myself and see how I can sort that?
- [30:04]
Radim Malinich
You know when people around you tell you you're a bit of a mapper to be around, if somebody says it to you, believe them. Because sometimes you get people who love you, they're like, you come across really stressed. I'm like, oh, I'm great, I'm absolutely brilliant. You're like, there's really bad energy emanating. Can you please either sort it out or do something else? Yeah, I was really stressed, wasn't I? If someone's trying to offer you help, be curious. I think this is the thing I've learned because, yeah, doing it on your own and not having that many safety nets available to yourself like you had in an agency, like you have to come up with an idea, you have to deliver it, you have to justify, obviously you have to defend it, sell it, think it through. And then it was exposing yourself like you can, almost peeling off every layer, layer, layer, layer, until you know, like, I am doing this with my heart on the sleeve and I have the resilience of many people just to get through. Because then when you get home after your four day week is to want to be on the other side rather than still being in the trenches fighting out with the clients. I want to talk about our therapist a little bit more because there is, yeah, as I said, the nudge. We need the nudge for us to say, I think you could do better. I'll be honest, it was my wife who said when I was in a similar situation, she's like, I think you should do this. And you feel like from the perception of our culture, honestly being a man, like, I guess I will do it. And it was like, it felt a relief, but almost like also a disappointment, like, oh, I have to do this. This feels a little bit alien. Like, is therapy really, like, have I really lost it or it just feels like there was like a stigma attached to it. What did it feel like for you?
- [31:44]
Chris Wilson
Definitely because I was so used to like within my job, being the one that was responsible to do everything. It definitely had me in that mindset of, I don't need help, I'll deal with it, I'll work at it myself, like, I'll manage. And when the day to day is that you're so used to doing things yourself, Delivering it. And does that almost trust an aspect that, okay, I can get through this, I can do it. So then when it was broached that maybe you need help, maybe you need some outside help, you need to speak to someone, definitely it was like a feeling of, no, no, I'll get that. Like, just leave me, I'll sort it. I feel like I've failed at not sorting my. It was kind of like that feeling. But it definitely, once I'd started, was like, oh my God. Like, I kind of wish I'd done it sooner. It was one of those things I thought, you know what, it is mad to not have done it through fear of the unknown or the stigmas attached to it, when really the benefits of it far outweigh any of that thinking. And now it has become almost like a kind of regular thing where I don't see it as a negative thing. I like the idea of it's there when I need it. And that can be a sort of crutch in itself. And it means that I'm not using the work as much, which is good.
- [32:51]
Radim Malinich
It's the word sooner. I wish I had done it sooner. It's almost like that unknown that even in the sort of hyper connected world offers you advice for everything. Anyway, grab a motivational quote and your child pumpkin spice latte or whatever it is. We just know so much about things, but we don't always turn into the right signals, do we? Like it's available, it's not new. It's never been really worked into our sort of daily lives. Like we didn't see our parents going to therapy, we didn't see our friends going to therapy, we didn't see our friends getting help. And I'm sure you might attest to it like from the environment. When we grew up, if someone needed a therapy, I'm like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with you? What is going on? Because it was designated to like really bad, severe cases. Whereas we learn so much about how we eat, how we have to drive a car. There's so many things that we rely on other people to show us how to do it. And the thing that is the closest to us, we think is just as you said, do it myself. I'll work it out. Maybe I'll read a self help book and you just which one should I buy? Okay, this doesn't make any sense. So yeah, I get this feedback from books and from this podcast where people say, I wish I had done that thing sooner. I wish I had done it. And I Never really thought when it came to therapy that it would be marriage counseling because of work and overworking myself. That would unlock a whole Narnia of, like, unresolved issues. Because I have spent personally from the age of 15, 16, I was in a band then I was a DJ then I just kept myself busy at every single possible moment. I slept very little, but I kept busy. That was my sort of excuse to not deal with any of it. Did I feel weak to say, I'm having a marriage counseling? That was the best thing I've ever did. We had somebody to show us that you can listen to each other and not try to realize, oh, yeah, you know what? I'm in the right and everyone else is in the wrong. Because that's usually the problems.
- [34:49]
Chris Wilson
Now, I've experienced that. But I think there's somebody said that you're touching upon, like, the upbringing side of it. Like, I was brought up in a kind of working class environment where that was the kind of thing it was like, just get on with, like, man up. Like, just get that done. So it's hard not to go along with that narrative when you do get older and you're starting to think, all right, okay, I'll just get through it. I'll just push through. I'll just push through. And it's easy to do that. I think it's like the whole work thing that we talked about, it's like when you're in it, you don't really see it. You need to almost be told, whether that's through a trip to the hospital or friends and family saying, you need to look at this stuff and try and resolve it.
- [35:25]
Radim Malinich
I'm very like that. You're open about this and obviously you open about therapy in your LinkedIn post and you obviously talk about it, and sometimes we just don't know when the wolf will get a little bit unleashed again and just help us to fix stuff. Because when you think about mental health or mental fitness, it's a bit like physical fitness or like the way we eat. If you let things go a little bit bad or if you give in to negative patterns or negative signals, it just cumulates. It's not just okay, which is one thing happened that would be fine. So I'm glad you're open about it because people say sometimes, like, you talk about therapy, and I wish I talked about therapy a lot more, a lot sooner, because it's analog. There's so many things. But I want to go to the element of you working for an agency for quite a While. And then you decided to do it on your own. What was the motivation?
- [36:16]
Chris Wilson
I think so prior to the agency. So the agency job, I was there for two years. I started off as a graphic designer. I moved up to senior and then finally design director before I left. But prior to that I had done eight years working in house for companies. So I worked six years at a packaging company and two years at pneumatic tooling company. So I had done effectively 10 years within the industry doing various different sort of tasks. And I figured got to a point where myself and my wife had been talking about starting a family and I think I'd always had that burning desire to run my own thing. I think again, it was the control aspect of it. I had actually set up Stickman as a registered sole tradership way back at uni in 06. And it was because I designed a product for the smoking ban. So there's probably, I don't know, there'll be younger listeners who didn't know there was a smoking ban at some point. We used to be able to smoke in pubs and clubs. I designed this product for the smoking ban and it had won some awards and I got to pitch the idea to Peter Jones from Dragon's Den. So at that point I set the business up. That was initially why I set up Stickman. At that point it was called Stickman Innovative Design Solutions, which is ridiculous to fit on a business card. So that again, you can sense the naivety and the branding aspect of it back then. So I'd set it up in 06 and I'd always been working nights and weekends, so I'd always been working kind of like when I was working those main jobs, I was always doing stuff and I built up a wee bit of client base. So when I was in my last kind of year there at the university, at the agency, and Nicola was starting to speak to me a bit like, listen, I'll be thinking about a family and things. It just felt like the right time. Like, it felt like I didn't want to start a family and then thanks, jump out and go full time freelance or run my own business, because I just would never have done it. The comfort of having a salary and having a job would have put me off doing it. So I think it just came to a point in life where it had been 10 years of working in the industry, we were talking about a family. It just felt like the right time to give it a try. I think as well, one of the things you were talking earlier about someone working with People and then handing off the job and they were on the tools and you were feeling jealous that you weren't getting to do the fun. But I think in the late or kind of part of that second year, I was doing a lot of the client meetings presentations and not so much the hands on stuff, but the hands on parts, the part I really enjoy. So I think that was another thing that was swaying it where I thought at least if I'm working for myself, it's me that's hands on and I'm doing it. And also getting the recognition. A big part of that acceptance thing again was I want to be recognized for the work. Whereas you're a member of staff there that's under their names. Yeah. A few of those things kind of led me to think it was time.
- [39:01]
Radim Malinich
I always believe you're never in the wrong place doing what you do at that time because it's part of our journey. It's only like how your body is adjusting or how your mind is adjusting to your progress because you might be just used to the pattern of being on the tools. And then you realize, I can't do all of this. I only got 10 fingers on two hands. We might meet more people and the people are doing the stuff. And that problem of self acceptance, you don't want to let go. Be like, I'm paying you. This is my client, this is my work. This needs to be great. And then you realize, let go, just let go, just let go, just let go. Because it's actually fun to do the client side. You don't get that physical feeling. Let's compare it to, let's say being in a band on stage, when it all clicks, when you do a retouching piece or when you do something, when it works, when it clicks, you're like, hell, yes, this is amazing. And you realize, oh, we go again. We have to start from scratch again. You're sort of endless, sort of Ferris wheel or whatever it's called. Like the endless sort of hamster wheel, but enjoyable hamster wheel. Colorful, but it's the fact that you need to just align. It's like we need to align where we are obviously what we need to do and yeah, how we perceive ourselves. Because I want to talk from you going on your own and how we do things now. We talked about a lot of dark things, but I want to talk about the benefits. We've had those shiny moments when sunshine and ice cream appears because obviously you're on your own. You steer in the ship. You can put your discipline in place. You're working four days a week. You got your clients respecting your time. Must be. You seem happier, even though, honestly, like, you are never. We as humans will never be 100%. Like, dark clouds come after the sunshine, and hopefully they just pass as quickly as they came. But what is the most satisfying thing and benefit from being on your own for the last nine years? Like, when you look back, you go, this was a good decision.
- [40:51]
Chris Wilson
I think it's. It can be a few different things. I think personal development point of view. See, if I achieve something that I've set out that's challenging, that maybe I'm learning a new skill or something happens that I'm, like, coming up against something I've not experienced before and I overcome it. It was definitely that feeling of, oh, great. Like, you get that buzz from it, like, that excitement. I think I was never won for, like, awards and stuff like that. Like, I've put myself up for a few, and I won one recently, two last year for the dialing. And that's definitely been one of those moments where you get the feeling of, oh, shit, finally Stickman has won. Not the agency or not, that someone else's company is, like, it was off my own back. So I think also when you start to land those bigger clients in the bigger paid projects, does that feeling of not that you've made it? Because I don't think that exists. Like, I don't think there's a thing where someone says, oh, that must have been the thing where you made it. I don't think we do. I think continuing to do it every year, like, I'm fortunate enough today that I think that is making it. But, yeah, so I think it's a number of things, like the excitement from the recognition for the work. They're all the things. Obviously, the main thing, you want the client to be happy because if they're not, they're not coming back to work with you again. So that's your focus when you're working on it. But the personal excitement comes from delivering well, doing the right thing, having recognition for it. I think that's the thing that keeps me going. And also it's fun. I think, as much as we can be so serious, like, designers and creatives are about like, oh, God, we're saving the world. We're not. We're not really. We're choosing these fonts and colors and make people's lives visually more exciting. But I think we need to sometimes not take ourselves too seriously.
- [42:29]
Radim Malinich
I think the serious part, I think it Stems from everything that we've talked about. The traumas is the reasons why we do this, why we hide behind font and Mac screens and paint brushes. Sometimes it's just that maybe the inability to actually verbalize how we feel. But let's zoom in on the development. What do you do? What is your toolkit for going forward and making things that are so sharp and frank.
- [42:54]
Chris Wilson
So I think obviously everyone's talking about the AI thing and I think we can escape it. It's something that's coming and what I try to do, my best to do is just lean into these things. When I started at college and certainly the start part of uni, I was doing a lot of stuff. I didn't have a computer at home. Like I would use the studio computers up at the university and everything we were doing was hand drawn sketches. It was like lecture set. I wasn't using computers to do these presentations. Then all of a sudden the computer comes along, there's all these software packages you need to learn. So it was just about developing and leaning into that. And I think AI is pretty much the same thing. Like it's something that's coming in whether we like it or not. And if you don't start to learn about it and you don't start to see how it can fit in, then I think you're just going get left behind. Like the same way when the printing processes and stuff move to digital, like people who on board just get left behind. And I think the exact same things will happen. It's better to lean in it and know about it than ignore it and then realize, oh shit, maybe I should have been learning those things. And I think as long as you're using it in the right ways, where you're using it in a way to take the mundane jobs of the shitty bits that you don't like today so that it frees you up to do the exciting bit as opposed to let it do all the cool creative shit. I'm going to do the stuff that is boring. That just seems like the wrong balance. I think using it in a way where it can free us up to do the stuff that we enjoy more than than I can afford it. So I just keeping up to date with things like that I think try to learn new skills. So like the 3D stuff like again, I really enjoy that. I've always enjoyed the visualization stuff through Photoshop. I started using a crack copy of Photoshop when I was like 16, pretty much like most of these probably did Photoshop. Like there's a thing called Digimods where you still like Photoshop like bumpers on the cars and stuff like that to make it look. And I was a bit of a boy racer when I had my first Mazda so I would Photoshop it up with a larger spoil and stuff. It all started with that and then it was like stuff for web stupid things like I don't know like Photoshop my mates heads on like boobs and stuff like just really stupid things when you're like 16 and then realized actually this is a cool tool for doing that sort of stuff and then realized people pay for like visuals. So I suppose the 3D is just a move on from that rather than doing 120 layers to make up one image of stock. Like you're using maybe a bit of AI to visualize it and then you're creating it in 3D. So it's a tool really but it's just another tool that needs to be learned. And that's what I was going to say earlier. As I'm getting older I find it harder. There's so many new tools like don't use XD now use Figma and okay there's a wee learning curve there. There's a new version of this go and learn these I don't know 50 to 100 new features. So I just don't get me wrong, it excites me still I think there are times where I get a bit kind of like bored of things I think. Right, is it time for a change? Like I try and go back to more of the hands on stuff like I was doing at uni albeit I wouldn't be doing the, the models and the sanding and like I think it would more be like 3D printing nowadays. I think the hands on things definitely something that I'll probably revisit.
- [45:50]
Radim Malinich
I made a note. Boy racer Mazda. Yeah I absolutely love it but I think it's that genuine and innocent free for all. Like I mean we all remember what we did with our first questionable copy of Photoshop which is the things that you're like you don't really know and you don't really know where you should be going but it doesn't matter. And what you describe about the tools which like I think you've got time and allowance in your sort of cognitive space. Okay, there's lots of new tools, there's a new software, that's what I want to do. But then you also just like a runner or like a Olympic runner, like you're not training forever, you need to go and do the race. You are building your toolkit. I'm gonna use it now. See what I did wrong. Maybe I can fine tune it here and there. Obviously carry on and do that. Because I think as a natural plateau to our interest, when you and I, I don't know how much older I'm in, but I remember the golden time of Adobe bringing new tools like 2005, 2006. There was Lightroom came out, this came out, we got this and this feature and this, that. When you look back, it was lovely to have all those features. But did they survive? Did they prove their worth? No, it's the basics that started. My most favorite feature in Photoshop is selective color. That is the thing and it was invented like Photoshop 3 or something. But if you know what you're doing with it, you can do so much that you like, you don't need to know all that sort of bells and whistles because they are nice to have for something. Is that sprinkling like that's five Spice in the back of your cupboard? Oh yeah, I remember that one is there. But through what you were describing about AI and as a development, I made a note that I think people who create change are scared of it. We are scared of the change because we tell ourselves that, okay, I've created my business. It's finally working. Let's enjoy the ride. Have you got your snacks? Are you ready? Have you got your pillow? Let's go and do it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like in the first destination, in the first stop, everything's changing. Or at least most of it's changing, at least. Or some of it written, like inevitably you're like, what do you mean? I just spend time building my business. Yeah. Every starting line, it takes you back to the starting line. You move away from it. But then there's another starting line, another change. So how do you see personal change? It seems like you're happy to embrace it, but how do you see it personally?
- [48:07]
Chris Wilson
It's hard. One of the things like the reasons again for the Friday carving that Friday to go for the four day week again, was the make sure there was time there for me to do things like that, to learn a bit more, maybe take a course like things like that, and having that time set aside, even just sometimes using that day to be thinking about where do I want the business to go, would they actually want to do things? Because again, I've still got so many probably unanswered questions about what Stickman is or what I want it to be. Like, what's it going to be in the next five years? What's it going to be the next 10 years? So be nine years in February. And it almost feels like that a year away for that monumental ten year thing. Again, like, it feels as if it's coming to a point where I should be reevaluating stuff. So I don't actually know. It's still an unanswered question as to where I take it to here or how. But again, I think it will be influenced by these new technologies. I think it will be influenced by client needs. Things like sustainability and packaging is like a massive thing. So there's a learning curve with that as well. So there's always something that I think that kind of guides me in a way and in a sense. But yeah, it's hard to know. I don't have a plan. It was like when I started Stickman, I don't have a business plan. I'm nine years in, I still don't have a plan. I've just taken it as it comes.
- [49:21]
Radim Malinich
I think when you mention about the tools and using them and needing to know about them because when you think like once people start using the tool when it's new, everything looks the same, everyone's doing it. Okay, this is the buttons. And you can almost feel impatient when you allow yourself time to step back and go, let me see first what everyone does and then build on top of their mistakes. It feels so not even tempting. It feels like it's necessary that you have to jump right in and press the buttons with everybody else. Because what they do, and they're creating data points, they're creating new examples like, oh, fellas, you haven't even actually changed the color in Photoshop after you generated the image. Because every image looks the same. It's either the same color or looks somber. It's just like when midjourney came out, like everyone was pressing the buttons. I'm like, wait a minute, did everyone really get really good at 3D? No, no, no. They just started using some prompt. You're like, am I seeing a post from the same person? No, no, no. It's different people using the same tool and it all looks the same. It's interesting. Like it's something that you can think of and it's there. And I think that's for purpose of visualization and that's what helps you. But if you've been working just like yourself and me, if you've been working in industry for a While, I mean, we've been creating wild things in Photoshop for 20 years, you got our director going, I want this with that one, it with that. And I'm thinking, that is a bit mad. Let's do it. Why not? Whereas now you can, hey, AI, show me the version of it. I'm like, yeah, it might. This isn't gonna work. But at least you had the idea. I think being able to create anything, we were always able to do a version of it and maybe even better, but it's where it takes us and I think it's a good thing to embrace. And sometimes not having a plan and pressing the buttons, it's what keeps you excited. And not being able to see in the dark, it's a good thing. Sometimes we need to see in the dark, sometimes we don't. But Chris, wherever you're taking stick mine in the next nine years is going to be a 18 year old by then and maybe it will have a plan. Maybe we'll do something. But thank you for sharing your story with me because I think to have such a heavy chapter in your life and using work as a sort of crouching of prop and a distraction from not dealing with it for a while, but now being on the other side, it takes guts and courage and I think this is where real life matters rather than choosing Gotham over circular. So, yeah, the work looks great. Congratulations on the latest wins. That whiskey project was quite amazing and quite rightly you're doing extensive case studies just to show and how you've done this because you put a lot of care and craft into your work. So thank you.
- [51:52]
Chris Wilson
No, I really appreciate you saying that. Thanks very much. And this episode almost feels like therapy for me. I feel like I've opened up quite a bit. So hopefully it's not been too much. Yeah down there for people. But no, listen, thanks so much for having me on, Adam. I really appreciate it. I know you've had some massive big names and heavy hitters on here. I really appreciate you having me on and also what you do for the creative community through your books and the talks and the podcasts and stuff, I know that I've personally benefited from them and I know that a ton of others have too. So thanks for that.
- [52:18]
Radim Malinich
Thank you, Chris. And it's time to self accept the space in the world. You deserve the space. I don't worry about who else has been on the podcast. Thanks so much. And I'm looking forward to have a jug of sangria somewhere in Barcelona soon at our festival or somewhere else. Because yeah, good times. They are never too far. Chris, keep doing what you're doing. It's been a pleasure and I'll see you soon.
- [52:38]
Chris Wilson
Nice one. Thanks.
- [52:49]
Radim Malinich
Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil McKay from 7 Million Bikes podcast and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. Foreign Just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provide them with value. So thank you for helping out. Thank you.